That sounds about right except not caring because it's a second-tier race.  With all due respect, where does that leave Lamont?

All that said, I'm staying out of it for the most part.  My dad called me a few minutes ago asking me who he should vote for and I didn't really have an answer for him.  When pressed, I ultimately stumbled towards Webb, but it's definitely tepid.  To the point that he's not sure he's going to bother voting either way.  Miller strikes me as having a lower ceiling, but I don't know enough to really have facts to back that feeling up.

What exactly is the problem with Saunders? Can you elaborate or link me to a post where you explain? I haven't read his stuff but he sounded like a bit of fresh air. Wasn't he guest bloggin at the political wire?

Chris, Have you no understanding what a horrible senator George Allen is? With the possible exception of Senators Brownback and Santorum, Allen is THE most bigoted, mysogonistic, hateful member of the Senate. The primary , will determine whether there will actually be a senate race this year, and while i think Miller would make a fine Senator, the fact  is , he stands no chance whatsoever of being elected senator, zippy...the bottom line is that Webb can beat Allen..MyDD is always the first site that i visit when i want election news, but i gotta tell you,im a bit annoyed and rather offended (as a viginian) that you are taking your ball and going home just because the DSCC ,and that idiot Saunders have rubbed you the wrong way..Lets keep our eye on the ball here.

There is a lot of information in Chris' post worth commenting on, both that I agree and disagree with.  However, I want to mention a position of mine that I know is not too popular around here.

For the most part, I think primary fights for a statewide office are to to be avoided whenever possible.  Yea, I know, the almost universal opinion here is that primaries are wonderful training grounds for candidates to prepare for the general election.  There is some point to this, but basically I disagree.  The primary in Virginia and the gubenatorial primary in California show that most primaries turn out to be nasty and divisive.  All competitive primaries are expensive.  How much money was spent in California's primary?  Something like 40-50 million dollars?  Wouldnt that money have been better spent fighting the Gropinator, who will have more money then G_d to spend on his race?

Let me finish by clarifying what I am not saying: I am not saying that primaries are never good; when there are important princliples at stake, such as Liberman-Lamont, primaries are a good thing.  Nor am I saying that I want to abolish primaries.  Obvioulsy, anyone who wants to run for an office should be allowed to and the voters of a particular party should be the one to chose who represents them.  

Yet, as a tactical, abstract, issue, I think it is usually, though granted not always, better to rally around a candidate who runs in an uncontested primary rather then having a contested primary with its propensity to degenerate into mud-slinging and wasting resources.

Webb is an interesting character. His politics are too rightwing for me and if I were in Virginia, I would vote for Miller.

However, I think there is publicity power in a former Reagan cabinet official changing parties. The GOP is too rightwing for a former Reagan administration cabinet official. The GOP is too rightwing for mainstream Republicans in Kansas, that most Republican of states. The GOP won the compromise of 1850 and the battle for bleeding Kansas. Kansas was the home of Alf Landon who was the GOP sacrificial lamb in 1936. That Kansas has had a rash of defections from the GOP. The GOP is just too rightwing. During the  80's I watched the defections of conservative Southerns, and heard the wingnuts exclaim how they were naturally the majority. If Webb wins, its an opportunity, that should not be missed, regardless how I feel about him personally.

and is a lobbyist.

'nuff said.

besides, as as been often repeated... Webb can win over Reagan voters.

-C.

Chris bowers, you are so wrong on this one my friend! Webb may be a conservative Democrat, he is nowhere as conservative as Allen and will not be into the religious right or the Neocons as Allen has been.  He is not going to be another Zell Miller and I do not think he is going to be as far right as Bill Nelson or Mary Landreau.  The bonus is he can win and put us one seat closer to Majority Leader Reid and Committee Chairs Kennedy, Kerry, Dodd, Durbin, Levin etc etc! And doesn't all that sound worth kissing a little rebel ass?

Looks like Webb, if i can believe early projections is going to be the democratic nominee for U.S. Senate.Im looking forward to the former marine/ secretary of the navy challenging Allens patriotism..Can anyone explain to me how thats a bad thing???

Well I disagree with you. The voters do have a choice. They are voting. The DSCC isn't controlling voters. The voters who go into the polls tonight will make the final decision.

As for being disappinted that Webb was in Reagan's cabinet, Chris, people do change their views. Reasonable people can change their opinions on issues.

The Webb people have tried to fake their way into being considered a netroots candidate. And the Raising Kaine people pushing the meme were pushing theocon talking points last year.

The netroots have far more important things to worry about than who is the crappy candidate in Virginia (aren't they all). For half the energy of focusing on Virginia, the netroots could have four times the effect in Nevada -- for a Senate seat with the same value.

And the fact Schumer's DSCC fucked up again is another long-term disadvantage for the instution.

Chris, you hit that nail right on the head. The race repulsed me entirely. I looked at it and saw a lot of good things about each one of these guys but the way they conducted the campaign was abysmal-- as witnessed today by an utterly pathetic turnout.

As for Schumer and the DSCC, you can't expect anything from them but the elitist, Inside-the-Beltway attitude that they own the Democratic Party and they'll do whatever the hell they want with it.

The only thing that makes me want to see either of these Democrats win (I don't care which)-- and one must win-- is because George Allen is such a truly awful senator that I think there's a semi-decent chance for a Democrat to beat him in November. I just hope whomever the nominee is, he will have learned something from the terrible, completely negative primary campaign we just saw played out.

A prediction:

Within 2+ years ( end of conventions) Webb will stab the democrats in the back win or lose. He will use this nomination to discredit and attack anyone to the left of addled ron, his hero.

If elected he will sabatauge any progressive movement and vote for all of shrubs judicial appointees.

He will join the lieberman, Miller, Ed case branch of the rethuglican party.

Chris,

Webb's not a conservative.  Seriously.  Webb was endorsed heartily by the most liberal statewide figure, Leslie Byrne.  He was drafted into the race by members of Democracy for Virginia because they were dissatisfied with Miller's conservative stances and heartened by Webb's progressive stances on most issues, especially economic issues.  Yes, Webb is more conservative than I am on national security issues, but he came out against the war in Iraq very early and very strongly.  He's a good candidate, and he has an outside shot at beating Allen if he can raise the money he needs.  And I say that as a liberal, not a moderate.

I love that you, Chris, criticize the fact that the establishment is behind Webb when his candidacy was actually a netroots inspired one. Read the article on Raising Kaine you linked to! You're almost reactionary. I've found that time and again. Just because the establishment backs a candidate doesn't mean that candidate is a bad choice.

No flames from me, Chris, hopefully not ever in your case.

But I think you are wrong in this instance.

Maybe it's pure prejudice from this old "baby killer" from Vietnam.  

I swallowed my hearty distaste in voting for the atrocious John Kerry, largely because of the Swift Boaters.

I hate the endorsements from the establishment Democrats and frankly know little about much of Webb's views.

Still and all it is a huge victory that can put the lie to the phony George Allen if Virgians will listen.

Just my own view.

"We should not be happy when the DSCC and Democratic leadership endorses in primaries but chooses the candidate we like. This is still the same problem of deciding that intra-party democracy does not matter, that activists should be taken for granted, and that only the leadership should have a voice in the direction of the Democratic party and the progressive movement."

I agree. The DSCC and DCCC should stay out of primaries and then help the winner against the Reeps.

But then, that would require integrity.

As I wrote in a comment earlier at Kos, this is one primary that isn't worth the ballot it's printed on.

For principled progressives, there is no choice. It's not even close: Vote for a DLC-backed racist Republican in Donkey in drag (James Webb) who will stab the progressive agenda in the neck, or vote for a cowardly, corporate prick (Harris Miller) who unrepentantly supported the illegal invasion of Iraq and lobbied to outsource U.S. tech jobs to foreign workers.

Therefore, I chose to sit this one out today. I have taken a lone stand to defy DLCer Al From's truism that progressives lack a backbone of conviction and will show up to vote for whomever the establishment puts on the ballot.

I refuse to be drawn into the deception of electability or participate in the politics of the lessor evil. Delusional games of false choices yield regrettable outcomes.

No more Faustian votes for me. Today, I refused to get in line to kiss the ass of an unprincipled, corporate Dem or a DLC Republican. My vote is all I have, and it deserves better choices than this sorry ass duo.

This is the sort of defeatist crap Kos pulled with the CA-gov primary. This will continue to happen, even between viable netroots candidates, so you and Kos ought to figure out some way to deal with it, rather than self-righteously pissing all over the readers who may be supporters of one or the other candidate.

Beating George Allen is no second tier priority.    

which should tell you something about this race.

I know literally hundreds of disgruntled tech workers in NOVA -- no surprise to see the Webb win in Fairfax.

My impression of this race --> turnout =  Pissed-off tech workers + Webb grassroots in NOVA countered by African-Americans less than thrilled with Webb in Hampton/Richmond areas.

Everybody else stayed home.

Writing a whole diary about why you WON'T discuss a primary later this evening.

Nice!

I will write a diary about why I WON'T be having steak tonight

What was Truman's quip?  .....Give 'em a choice between a Republican and  a republican and they'll vote Republican every time....  Or something like that.   But it is logical.  If your best strategy is to not offer an alternative but to validate their world view, why in the world would they vote for anything other than the real deal.

Chris, once again you reveal your lack of understanding regarding what happens in virginia. First there was your comment about Gov. Kaine being a "newly-minted homophobe" b/c of the anti-gay ammendment being put on the ballot and him being unable to veto it. Instead, Kaine refused to sign off and just let the measure appear on the ballot w/o his signature. Since then, he, Mark Warner, Jim Webb, and others have fought vociferously against the amendment.

As for Webb, believe it or not, people CAN change their minds. Furthermore, Webb was NEVER a registered Republican, and frankly, you're forgetting that a number of Democrats voted for Reagan--partly for his reassuring personality and partly b/c his opponents either did not have much appeal (Mondale) or faced third-party challenges and other difficulties (Carter). Webb is PRO CHOICE, PRO-GAY RIGHTS, supports environmental protections, and is a stalwart opponent of bad trade agreements that aid outsourcing. Doesn't sound like any Republican I know. If anything, Jim Webb would be more like other Southern progressives like Dale Bumpers (Arkansas) and Al Gore (both now and when he was a senator).

It's amazing to me that people can swallow Bob Casey in PA but not Jim Webb in VA when:

1. PA is slightly bluer than VA;

2. Jim Webb is, in most respects, more in line with progressive principles than Bob Casey;

3. George Allen is AT LEAST as poor a Senator as Rick Santorum (if you don't believe me, I can elaborate further).

If I can support Bob Casey in PA, then I think it's fair for me to expect others in the party to support Jim Webb.

I'm not in favor of the primary system period.  As a PROGRESSIVE, I believe there should be no primaries, that all candidates should run in the general election, and that the winner should be selected by all voters using an ranked-choice or instant-runoff voting system.

...dig several thousand more feet into the nearly bottomless well that is the need for cultural validation among the southern white male, and continue to blame people who live outside of the south for the near-total collapse of the Democratic Party in the south.

I wish I'd seen this one last night.  A couple points: I attended the panel, watched the fireworks with a sense of incredulity, and debated the issue long into the night (discussion went to 3, I staggered home 430-ish(?).  It's a big deal, I think, a lack of trust that may hurt us if we don't address it as a movement. (I was hoping to wait until Thanksgiving or so, but oh well)
Can the Dems win without the south?-- sure, but the tension in the room seemed to come from the meta debate that was very actively going on, namely "should" the Dems try to win without the south, a very different thing indeed; something that veers from the tactical into the philosophical, and raised hackles on both sides.

Up front, I like Chris, and I respect him, a lot.  
And I know he's mad at Mudcat (who verbally horse-whipped Schaller, perhaps at times unfairly)-- and, he admits, exhausted.  But as a southerner, damn son, that's rough.   More than that, I believe it's unhelpful. Here's the thing, and my thesis, in a nutshell.  There are no significant ideology gaps among progressives in this country that result from geography. None. Period. End of story.  Progressives everywhere want the same things. This is a cultural wedge that W and his ilk have been ruthlessly hammering in and twisting since the 80s.  And it's painful to witness how effective it's been-- rearing it's head on our side, and at the otherwise 24/7 love-in that was YKos, for god's sakes.  And to overcome it, both sides (southern/rural and, uh, well, yankees) have a serious and immediate obligation to reach out to the other and start focusing on *corn alert* what unites us, not what...** you get the picture.  
Anyway, as Mudcat said, "once you get past the culture, it's easy" [to win southern votes on progressive issues].  I'm from the south, spent most of my formative years in the north, so I feel qualified to comment on this one: Style arguments at the Friday panel aside-- was it Friday?, maybe Saturday, hmmmm...--whatever, it was Vegas-- Saunders is right on this one, and Mr. Schaller is wrong, from a tactical perspective and, when you get down to what his message actually means to people, a moral one (but that's a whole post).  
We cannot let ourselves do the work of our opponents by tearing each other's enthusiasm down; that excitement, energy and TRUST is too critical in building momentum in this movement.

I could blab forever, so I'll wrap it up.  For wisdom on moving forward in a positive way together, I look to Mr. Ali G:

RESPECT

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