9% Want to Invade Iran Now

It's all academic and hypothetical because, considering our current deployment capabilities, we are unable to invade Iran (short of a draft and/or a near total pullout of Iraq). But gee, do you think the country is a little gunshy after Iraq?
CNN/USA Today/Gallup Poll. Feb. 9-12, 2006. N=1,000 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.

"Now, turning to Iran -- What do you think the United States should do to get Iran to shut down its nuclear program: take military action against Iran now, use economic and diplomatic efforts but not take military action right now, or take no action against Iran at this time?" Options rotated

Military Action Now 9
Economics/Diplomacy 68
No Action 18
Unsure 5
Numbers like these mean that about 80% of the people in this country who think the invasion of Iraq was a good idea would rather not invade Iran right now.

There is a great irony in all of this. Bush has often been accused (mostly by people on the left) of not adhering to true conservative principles (if such things exist) through reckless military intervention. However, after he tossed those principles aside and the country has seen the consequences of reckless military intervention, now, more than at any time in the last twenty years, the country is actually more in line with the "true conservative" principles Bush eschewed. We are not interested in overseas military "adventurism" anymore.

Personally, I never bought into the "true" or "traditional" conservative argument anyway. Conservative is as conservative does. In a more Catholic phrasing, your actions are your beliefs. Given this, I can see no way to conclude anything except that the reckless use of the military in a quest for empire and political gain is a core conservative belief. In fact, taking the long historical view, I think history completely backs me on this one too. Using the military for empire and glory is what conservatives have always done.



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Re: 9% Want to Invade Iran Now (none / 0)

You have two quite distinct items on this plate. My take on the real conservative / neoroyalist relationship has always been that the neoroyalists have simply been utilizing their vast, trillion dollar corporate media machine to carefully cultivate and "grow" the conservative culture, so  as to have something respectable to hide behind. Same deal with the vast pseudo-ministry that they have bought and paid for, a subversion of genuine religion, engineered to tell poor red staters whom to vote for. It is just a fact that many of these real conservatives and fundamentalists are fine people, who in many, many ways, are often rather liberal.

This March, about one month from now, the Iranian Bourse (an oil stock exchange) will open. This conceivably could lead to an end to the decades-old U.S. protection racket that has kept the U.S. awash in super-cheap petroleum for decades, and greased our otherwise quite moribund economy. A veritable mountain of Scott Ritter-style analyses put forward by the kinds of people who should have the analytical abilities to be in the know, says that the U.S. neoroyalist puppets in the Beltway are setting up to try to blow up Iran's nuclear complexes right at this moment in time.

The will try to use "bunker-buster" type weapons, or nuclear weapons. If they "succeed" in blowing up these fortified nuclear complexes, it is likely that they will set off a Chernobyl-type multiple dirty-bomb scenario, which could be maybe 100 times worse than Chernobyl itself. Millions of Chinese nationals could die in the ensuing radiological holocaust. The fallout could easily spread to Western Russia, the Koreas, Vietnam, Cambodia, Japan, etc., etc.

China could be expected to invade Iran to get at it's oil. And Formosa. Russia might well join them. Each of those nations possess deterrent systems that could obliterate the U.S. about 100 times over. Iran may have advanced biological weapons. As may North Korea. Who knows what the Vietnamese have? If China and Russia get hold of all that Iranian oil, the could easily end up having the Koreas and Japan as new partners.

Still, the smart talk on the street says the U.S. neoroyalist puppets are prepared to protect the dollar's hegemony at any cost, and are rapidly moving toward an air attack on Iran, probably in March. An attack by Israel would be viewed as no different than a direct attack by U.S. forces.


by blues on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 03:33:00 AM EST

'True Conservative Principles' ALWAYS More Popular (3.00 / 1)

Of course, I believe "by their fruits ye shall know them," just to be clear that we're basically agreed.  But beyond the basics, I may have a somewhat different take.

IMHO, "True conservative principles" are always more popular than what conservative leaders actually do.  So this situation is "same as it ever was," as Talking Heads would say.  At least in that regard.  But there is a change, as I'll indicate below.

I've always believed that you have to understand conservatism in terms of producers and consumers--a construct I first encountered vis-a-vis political hysteria during the post-WWI Red Scare in Political hysteria in America; the democratic capacity for repression by Murray B. Levin.  "True conservative principles" are for consumers, and they will always be selectively invoked--or finessed--when needed by the producers.  The cult of Bush that Glenn Greenwald has been writing about arises in part from the fact that the ratio of finesses to invocations has grown well beyond a critical level. (The popular term is "tipping point," which comes from sociology, but I think it's more insightful--returning sociology to its roots as 'social physics'--to speak of a phase transition, from solid to liquid or from conductor to superconductor.)

I think that the state that conservatives are in now is more akin to the early stages of fascism than anything we've seen in this country--outside the Deep South, at least--since 1936, when FDR's sweeping re-election really took the wind out of the proto-fascist right's sails.  It's so foreign to what we've been accustomed to that we really can't see it clearly.  All the more reason to make the effort to do so.

I hope to develop the ideas here into a fully elaborated post in the next day or so.


by Paul Rosenberg on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 05:08:59 AM EST

Re: 'True Conservative Principles' ALWAYS More Pop (none / 0)

I want to mention that the very notions of "liberal," and "conservative" are actually quasi-mythical. They are largely just distinct "dialects" or "ways of talking." Their most salient distinguishing features may be broad themes concerning which sets of human rights are most crucial. But these broad themes begin to look almost nebulous when set beside the stark realities of practical survival.

Another thing that appears to set them apart is that they tend to adopt arbitrary "positions" on things like the "death penalty," "abortion," "etc.," "etc.," "etc." Just how arbitrary these schisms are can come to our attention when folks who are nominally "liberal" take random leaps now and then into positions thought to be "important" to the "conservatives" -- and vice-versa. For example, many very "conservative" people are now protesting that the Bush Jr. tax cuts have just gone way too far. And although I am progressive (an "inventive" liberal, maybe) 99% of the time, I was totally opposed to the feeding tube removal decision in the Terri Schaivo incident. And we even now have many Evangelicals pushing hard for "intelligent design," while the Vatican has totally renounced same!

In the end, people really are individuals, and who they are, how honest they are, how committed they are, and so forth, counts for far more than whatever nominal "political orientation" they may have chosen to adopt.

Unfortunately, right now, the same fools who built Adolph Hitler into a monster, and then found that they had no choice but to send millions to their doom to stop him, are back at their bloody poker table, binge-playing at their idiotic little game.


by blues on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 08:15:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Group Realities (none / 0)

There is a very long, deep and profound difference between liberalism and conservatism, as the linked entries at the Dictionary of the History of Ideas make clear at great length.

But it's certainly true that there's enormous fuzziness in positions taken by self-identified liberals and conservatives as a whole.  This is a point that I myself have made several times here and elsewhere.

For example, shortly after the 2004 election, I posted the diary "On Social Spending, Conservatives ARE Liberal" with a bunch of charts showing, among other things, how little difference there was in levels of support for social spending across the political spectrum.  Indeed, this is probably the greatest variation:

But this hardly means that there's no difference between liberalism and conservatism, or that they're just "ways of talking."  As Chris showed right around the same time, the difference between liberals and conservatives in terms of who they voted for for president was 71%.  There's very few characteristics out there you can find that produce a 50% difference in how people come down on anything, much less a 71% difference.

Ideology is real.  It's just that it's a fuzzy concept, particularly for the vast majority of the American people, who have only a very fuzzy notion of politics to begin with. The more informed and polticially active people are, the more these concepts tend to become criper and better defined.

This is really where the problem arises for conservatives, since the conservative activist core takes the extreme minority position of opposing social spending in general, putting them at odds with the vast majority of self-identified "extreme conservatives" among the population at large.  There is a similar split on some other issues as well--such as multi-lateralism.

The demonization of liberals can be seen in part as a political necessity, in order to prevent the conservative consumer base from discovering how much it agrees with liberals, as opposed to the conservative leadership.

This claim:

In the end, people really are individuals, and who they are, how honest they are, how committed they are, and so forth, counts for far more than whatever nominal "political orientation" they may have chosen to adopt.
is thus true in a certain sense--the relatively small differences in actual positions we find on most issues--and false in at least two others.

First, because of who they're likely to vote for for president--and other offices as well--the small differences in actual positions get magnified into much larger differences in what they have voted to support.  Second, among political activists, the differences in actual positions themselves become quite stark, and the conservative positions are much more often outside the mainstream than are liberal positions.

Indeed, your seemingly "ideologically neutral"  reliance on personal integrity is one of the oldest conservative ploys.  It's part of their whole hierarchical view.  Indeed, it still forms the core of support for Bush today.  Crazy as it may seem, Bush supporters think of him as a man of high integrity.  Which is why so many still believe that Saddam's WMDs are out there somewhere, just waiting to be found.

The reality-based alternative to your faux neutrality is to focus on results, rather than rationale.  And this is where--and why--so many conservatives in principle, and self-identification, end up supporting liberal policies: because they work.  This is the one traditional American value that conservative ideologues really hate: pragmatism.  The New Deal worked.  And ideological conservatives will never forgive liberalism for that.


by Paul Rosenberg on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 12:00:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Group Realities (none / 0)

Paul, you seem to be basing your analyses on more or less conventional sociology. Personally, I have zero faith in the currently accepted academic "science" of sociology. I consider the entire project as junk science. I have developed a somewhat incomplete, but vastly superior theory that I will just call anti-sociology for now.

Also, you said:

Indeed, your seemingly "ideologically neutral"  reliance on personal integrity is one of the oldest conservative ploys.  It's part of their whole hierarchical view.  Indeed, it still forms the core of support for Bush today.  Crazy as it may seem, Bush supporters think of him as a man of high integrity.  Which is why so many still believe that Saddam's WMDs are out there somewhere, just waiting to be found.

The reality-based alternative to your faux neutrality is to focus on results, rather than rationale.  And this is where--and why--so many conservatives in principle, and self-identification, end up supporting liberal policies: because they work.  This is the one traditional American value that conservative ideologues really hate: pragmatism.  The New Deal worked.  And ideological conservatives will never forgive liberalism for that.

Faux neutrality? It is a real neutrality (this "neutrality" concept is not a very precise terminology, I think). If you have an official who is honest, committed, etc., it makes much less difference what their political orientation happens to be. These personal qualities are real things that matter. Bush Jr. and company are NOT "conservatives." They are themselves neoroyalists, and as such, cannot have any honesty, commitment, or qualities like that.

If Bush and company were honest and committed, we would not have the pathetic spectacle we have today. but they are not "liberals," nor "conservatives." They are fascist neoroyalists.

Liberals and progressives will get nowhere if they continue to buy into the junk-science of sociology, political science, economics, etc. These things have failed continually, utterly. Time to try anti-sociology.

(Please try not to take my disagreement personally, Paul.)


by blues on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 12:55:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Not Part of the Reality-Based Community (none / 0)

Paul, you seem to be basing your analyses on more or less conventional sociology. Personally, I have zero faith in the currently accepted academic "science" of sociology. I consider the entire project as junk science.
So, you're not a member of the reality-based community.  Why am I not surprised?

Of course, nothing I wrote was actually based on "conventional sociology"--it's not sociology at all. But since you're not a member of the reality-based community, hey, what's the diff?

But this works both ways, you know.

Since you're not a member of the reality-based community, then why should any of us give a tinker's damn what you think?

Ultimately, if we're going to have a productive conversation, there has to be something we can agree on.  But you agree only to rely on what you like to believe.

So, how exactly does this make you any different from a Bush cultist?  Your cult's better than his?  But that's his line, isn't it?


by Paul Rosenberg on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 03:21:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not Part of the Reality-Based Community (none / 0)

My special interests include mathematics and linguistics. I am starting a web forum on my own version of semantics at:

http://www.anti-grammar.com

Just because I do not think that the alleged "social sciences" are real sciences, in the sense that physics or geology or botany are sciences, does not exclude me from the "reality-based community." Well I dunno. Maybe it does. Maybe the "reality-based community." and the "science-based community" are mutually exclusive. My mistake, I guess.


by blues on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 04:57:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What The FUCK Are You Talking About??? (none / 0)

You can't point to one single thing I wrote and dispute it's validity, so instead you bring in the red herring of attacking the social sciences en masse.  You may have some very compelling arguments to make, but you don't feel the need to make them, it's enough to simply state your disdain.  That's pretty damn anti-reality-based if you ask me.

And what do you tout yourself?  Mathematics and linguistics?  Neither one of those is a "real science" as you would have it.   Linguistics is a social science, obviously, and math isn't a science at all. It deals with analytic truths, not empirical facts.

The more you talk, the more incoherent you reveal yourself to be.


by Paul Rosenberg on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 06:48:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What The FUCK Are You Talking About??? (none / 0)

Linguistics is a nascent science; further, it is not really a "social science". It surely will not be so viewed once we get programs that pass the Turing test. (I am actually out looking for programmers in C, or Java, or CLISP currently.)

Mathematics is traditionally viewed as being somehow too "abstract to count as a "science." But it really has all of the other characteristics of a science. So I personally accept it as a science. You can apply other standards, if you so desire, and no one will fault you for that. As for me, I don't have any problem with it being viewed as a science.


by blues on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 08:52:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What The FUCK Are You Talking About??? (none / 0)

Linguistics isn't a social science?

Just when I think you can't possibly beceome any more incoherent, I get proven wrong!

I am indeed humbled.
I am humbled, indeed.
I humbled am, indeed.
Humbled I am, indeed.
Humbled I indeed am.
Humbled indeed I am.
Indeed, humbled I am.
Indeed, humbled am I.
Indeed, am humbled I.
Am indeed, humbled I.
Am indeed, I humbled?
Am I indeed humbled?
I am indeed humbled.

Word falling...

    photo falling...

      break through in grey room....


by Paul Rosenberg on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 10:27:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What The FUCK Are You Talking About??? (none / 0)

Am indeed, I humbled?

I dunno. Buy the damn ticket. Take the damn ride. Or not. Whatever.


by blues on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 10:55:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 'True Conservative Principles' ALWAYS More Pop (none / 0)

Dude, conservatism is a great thing. Its true form, and the libertarian principles that drive it - are exactly what created our country. Our entire country was started with a Tax Revolt. The boston tea party was not for turtleneck liberals, it was for war painted men who had enough, and were ready to thrash cronyism and taxation.

Conservatism is all about that. Liberalism has its place as well. Bush isn't really the problem in my view, its Karl Rove. After all, who quashed the story about Cheney firing and shooting someone in the face on a hunting trip?


by turnerbroadcasting on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 09:33:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Conservatism Is Great For the Haves (none / 0)

What you fail to understand is that last week's radical is yesterday's liberal, today's conservative and next week's reactionary.

Calling the founders "libertarians" is utterly ahistorical, and completely ignores what they actually believed, which was a good deal closer to FDR than it was to Hayek.


by Paul Rosenberg on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 12:21:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 'True Conservative Principles' ALWAYS More Pop (none / 0)

Hey turner:

Here's my take on conservatism, liberalism, and libertarianism. First of all, I don't put much stock in libertarianism. To me, it just looks like way-overcooked anarchism. And anarchism, to the best I can tell, seems to be based upon the rather far-out notion that the big corporate hegemonists will some how vanish if we just "do away" with all government. (Never mind that they most likely would become the damn government.) But some folks like you also use the term libertarian as a sort of shorthand for "neither conservative nor liberal." It seem odd, but what the hey.

As far as conservatism and liberalism, I see them as a strange dichotomy, moreorless invented by the neoroyalists to provide cover for their rather dubious "program." I much prefer liberalism myself. However, conservatism bears a very major advantage in possessing it's own "language."

The only "language" available to liberals is that of the academic world. So the liberals are forever open to the insanely peculiar charge of being "elitist." Of course, the philosophers of the academic universe are ever fawning at the doorsteps of the well-heeled. Just look at the board of directors of your nearest college or university. See any homeless folk sitting in there?


by blues on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 05:20:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Go To It, Blues! (none / 0)

You and TB deserve one another!


by Paul Rosenberg on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 06:50:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Go To It, Blues! (none / 0)

I'm not into building dreamscapes. I'm into building coalitions. You, Paul, might not see that as important...


by blues on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 08:33:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Recipies Are Soooo Boring... (none / 0)

The Crab Nebula observed by the Chinese in 1054 A.D. is the result of a supernova or exploding star - Situated about three thousand light years from the earth - (Like three thousand years in hot claws at the window - You go it? -) - Before they blow up a star they have a spot picked out as many light years away as possible - Then they start draining all the fuel and charge to the new pitch and siphon themselves there right after and on their way rejoicing - You notice we don't have as much time as people had say a hundred years ago? - Take your clothes to the laundry write a letter pick up your mail at American Express and the day is gone - They are short-timing us as many light years as they can take for the getaway - It seems that there were survivors on The Crab Pitch who are not in all respects reasonable men - And The Nova Law moving fast - So they start the same old lark sucking all the charge and air and color to a new location and then? - Sput - You notice something is sucking all the flavor out of food the pleasure out of sex the color out of everything in sight? - Precisely creating the low pressure area that leads to nova - So they move cross the wounded galaxies always a few light years ahead of the Nova Heat - That is they did - The earth was our set - And they walked right into the antibiotic handcuffs - IT will readily be seen that having created one nova they must make other or answer for the first - I mean three thousand years in hot claws at the window like a giant crab in slag heaps of smouldering metal - Also the more novas the less time between they are running out of pitches - So they bribe the natives with a promise of transportation and immortality -

"Yeah, man flesh and junk and charge stacked up bank vaults full of it - Three thousand years of flesh - So we leave the bloody apes behind and on our way rejoicing right? - It's the only way to live -"


by Paul Rosenberg on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 10:33:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 9% Want to Invade Iran Now (none / 0)

Another irony is that we invaded Iraq partially because we thought it would remove a threat to Isarael.  But Iraq was not a threat to Israel, and our having done so makes it almost impossible to help Israel when a real, existential threat arrives in the form of the Iran nuclear program.


by Bob H on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 07:14:48 AM EST

Re: 9% Want to Invade Iran Now (none / 0)

Iran may be a relatively large threat to Israel, that is in comparison with some other neighbors. But it is not now, and even with nuclear weapons, would not be a really serious "threat."

One real threat to Israel, and the entire Middle East, is global warming and fresh water depletion. The former "River Jordan" is now 2 feet wide. Global desertification will render up two-thirds of the currently inhabited world uninhabitable. And there will be no surplus energy to desalinize sea water.


by blues on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 07:30:48 AM EST

Re: 9% Want to Invade Iran Now (none / 0)

It's not only the GOP with crazy ideas over Iran.

As, for instance, potential presidential candidate Brer Bayh - who seems to want to be a second LBJ: fight the Dems are weak on national security tag by taking the country into an enormous unwinnable war! (Salon article has more.)

Hopefully, overstretch plus the impossibility of a draft will keep the crazies at bay: but let's look out for them on both sides of the aisle.


by skeptic06 on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 07:54:56 AM EST

Re: 9% Want to Invade Iran Now (none / 0)

The title of this post is misleading. Actually a majority support an air strike on Iran. The Busheviks know that and they might delude themselves into thinking it can be a "surgical" strike and bring a huge rallying boost to their 06 chances. It's clear to me that such a strike would bring rapid escalation, with probable nuclear counter strike against Iran after Iran sends missiles down on Israeli cities and American bases in Iraq. A military confrontation with Russia and China seems also likely, along with a disuption of all oil shipments out of the Persian Gulf. An uprising across the Muslim world is likely. Bush is just stupid enough and reckless enough to do this. Reputable sources say the deadline has been set for the end of March. After that Russian anti-aircraft missiles are set to be deployed in Iran.


by cmpnwtr on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 11:44:40 AM EST


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