The Two Obamas and Me, Part One

At the end of the 2004 presidential primary season and how, after Howard Dean's loss, I found great hope in Barack Obama when I briefly moved to Chicago during the Illinois Senate primary. Reading the latest piece in the media whirlwind surrounding Obama, I found this nugget that reminded me why I liked the guy so much, and why I volunteered for his campaign in a crowded field:
Which is not to say that Obama doesn't have very strong partisan convictions. "There are times I think we're not ambitious enough," Obama says. "I remember back in 2004, one of the candidates had made a proposal about universal health care, and some DLC-type commentator said, `We can't propose this kind of big-government costly program, because it'll send a signal we're tax-and-spend liberals.' But that's not a good reason to not do something. You don't give up on the goal of universal health care because you don't want to be tagged as a liberal. People need universal health care."
I remember that Obama. I miss that Barack Obama--but he does still show up from time to time. I hope we will see more of him in the future. That is the man I worked for in the 2004 Illinois Senate primary, and who built up easily the largest netroots following of any statewide candidate in 2004. What I don't understand is where this new Obama came from:
In town-hall meetings, when those who opposed the war get shrill, Obama makes a point of noting that while he, too, opposed the war, he's "not one of those people who cynically believes Bush went in only for the oil."
Did anyone with any power every say that? Did any leading Democrats ever say that? Did any progressive or liberal of any public stature ever say that? If they did, I'd love to see the quote. Why is it necessary for Obama to preface his opposition to the war by saying that he isn't like some crazy, left-wing stereotype that he never names or quotes? More:
We're now in a packed room at Eastern Illinois University. A woman stands up and tosses Obama what I assume she thinks is a bit of red meat. What, she asks, does the senator think of the pervasiveness of religion in public discourse these days? Obama doesn't take the bait.

"No one would say that Dr. King should leave his moral vision at the door before getting involved in public-policy debate," he answers. "He says, `All God's children.' `Black man and white man, Jew and Gentile, Protestant and Catholic.' He was speaking religiously. So we have to remember that not every mention of God is automatically threatening a theocracy.
Who ever said that any mention of God is automatically threatening a theocracy? Did the woman who asked the question say that? If not, then why did he respond that way? Even if she did say that, why is what one woman in a crowd at Eastern Illinois University the equivalent spokesperson for the left as, I don't know, Sam Brownback is for the right? Where is the equivalence in making everyone on the left accountable for every statement of every random person who shows up to any event or a protest and, say, the right being only accountable for what Dick Cheney says?

I find these left wing strawmen disturbing on a very personal level. Whenever a right-wing pundit or politician uses those exact same strawmen, I feel as though I am personally being attacked. This isn't paranoia--right-wing politicians probably are referring to me when they make statements like that, since their intention is often to slander any American who would refer to herself or himself as a progressive or a liberal. The problem is that when Democrats who seek to capture the "middle ground" use the exact same strawmen, I have a hard time believing they are not referring to me. What's worse, is that when it comes to someone like Barack Obama, for who I worked and tried to get elected, I am not really sure what I did to deserve being talked to that way. And yes, it actually hurts to be made a scapegoat by someone you wanted to see in office, and that you helped--even if only slightly--to achieve that office. A single phrase keeps going around in my head whenever I hear Obama use one of his strawmen: I helped you, man. Why are you treating me like this? Is this a sign you don't want me to help you anymore? Do you honestly believe that attacking me is more valuable than I help I can provide?

Unlike, say, Ann Coutler, I don't actually believe that Obama thinks he is referring to the entire left when he makes statements like this. However, since he never actually says who he is referring to, I simply have to assume that, like Ann Coulter, he is referring to the entire left, and therefore also to me. And yes--call me naïve, or call me thin-skinned--but that hurts me. He could clear this up by stopping any use of these left-wing strawmen altogether. There is no need for Obama to use these strawmen in order to make himself look more like a "uniter." (Of course, I don't even see how insulting your fellow Americans makes you a "uniter" in the first place). In the end, all his use of these strawmen does is obscure the great Obama that I quoted at the top of this post. I like that Obama. Everyone in the netroots likes that Obama, as his favorables from the BlogPac netroots survey shows. Like I did in Illinois, I imagine virtually everyone in the netroots would be willing to work, bleed, and walk through the fire for that Obama. There is no need, before revealing the first Obama, for him to indicate that he isn't one those shrill lefties who you heard about from Ann Coulter. There is no need to throw your friends under the bus while saying what you believe.

This man has potential for all-time, worldwide greatness for the first half of the 21st century. However, if he insists on continuing to use left-wing strawmen to describe himself and what he believes then, to use his own words, he will just become another "DLC-type commentator" more worried about being "tagged as a liberal" then about doing what "people need." I mean, is there a reason you differentiate yourself from left-wing strawmen before stating your opposition to the war unless you are worried about being tagged as a liberal? I can't possibly imagine one. This can't all be the media putting words in Obama's mouth and trying to form this triangulating narrative around him. Part of this problem starts with Obama himself.

I will probably have more on this tomorrow. There is so much here that I need to get off my chest, both personally and politically, when it comes to the rise of Obama. I can't say it all in one post. This man just potentially means so much to so many people in America and around that world, that we need to encourage him. He should be neither dismissed outright nor embraced uncritically.



Display:


Re: The Two Obamas and Me, Part One (3.00 / 7)

He should be neither dismissed outright nor embraced uncritically.

Indeed, when it comes to the man. But his actions since he joined the senate should be used as an example of what not to do.

The problem is, he hasn't acted like a Fighting Democrat. He has wasted opportunity by acting like a suck up to the problems that be politician.

I can't think of a single month since the '04 convention that I didn't lose respect for the way he was squandering his potential.


Bob Brigham Blog
by Bob Brigham on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 10:30:28 PM EST

Re: The Two Obamas and Me, Part One (3.00 / 1)

So when and where are the diary people from DailyKos going to bury Chris?   This post just commited two of their holy sins, criticizing a Democrat and Obama at that.  I agree that Obama has turned into a suck up, which is why I have no interest in him as a candidate for anything.  Some have made the point that Conyers and other minority politicians have earned more of a right to run that the empty suit Obama has turned into. In fact, the whole field of Democratic contenders is greatly uninspiring.  I don't know much about Webb's policy positions, but I like his spunk.  


Follow the money
by dkmich on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 01:59:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Two Obamas and Me, Part One (3.00 / 1)

Criticizing democrats from the left is entirely different than doing so from the right


"You say the world has lost it's love I say embrace what it's made of" -Dar Williams
by Valatan on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 03:39:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Two Obamas and Me, Part One (none / 0)

I agree.  If WE don't hold their feet to the fire, who will?   I appreciate Sirota, Chris, Kos, and all the rest of take the Blue Dogs and the DLC to task for betraying their party and all of the Democrats who vote for them.   See that Blue Dogs and DLC are meeting with Mr. 30%.  Pelosi and Reid ought to break their knee caps.


Follow the money
by dkmich on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 07:03:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Two Obamas and Me, Part One (2.00 / 0)

Very good post.  I hope Senator Obama reads it. He really should read this.  I use to like him too and feel betrayed.

Why do politicians do that?  

In order to win they need to step  on other people.  Why can they not learn inclusive talk. He should learn from  Mark Warner,
Gov Vilsalk, Gov. Richardson, Gen Clark, Sen Reid, Sen Edwards.  


by jasmine on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 10:36:19 PM EST

Re: The Two Obamas and Me, Part One (none / 0)

I'm starting to see that with Obama, if he runs, it almost doesn't matter how segments of the netroots feel about him. A guy like that will generate all the support, donations and goodwill that he needs. A lot of us may complain about his style and any perceived slight against the left, and I do worry about it myself, but I'm really starting to see that with him, we're the last people that he's going to need to win over in order to get elected.


by mihan on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 10:47:54 PM EST

Re: The Two Obamas and Me, Part One (3.00 / 1)

Maybe for the first few months, but he can't keep up the facade long enough. In the end, it will be yet another example of some Democrats getting hosed because they listened to the Gang of 500 instead of the blogs.


Bob Brigham Blog
by Bob Brigham on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 10:51:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Two Obamas and Me, Part One (none / 0)

you see, that's where I don't agree at all. Obama has a really high, positive profile in the media and with the general public. There may be bloggers that are mad at him, but I really don't see the scenario where blogger anger overrides the public's affection for the man. I don't think bloggers hate him that much for one thing, and though the netroots is clearly powerful, I don't think they are that powerful even if they had it in them to do something about it.


by mihan on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 11:08:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Two Obamas and Me, Part One (3.00 / 3)

That is how it always begins. It isn't about strength, it is about fantasy vs. reality and the fact that no matter how much you spend on the curtain, it can still be pulled back.


Bob Brigham Blog
by Bob Brigham on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 11:15:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Two Obamas and Me, Part One (3.00 / 1)

Is that how it began with Kerry?  No.  Is that how it began with Gore?  No.  The reality, as much as we might like to believe differently, is that the presidency ultimately comes down to abstract notions of trust and likability.  People vote from their guts.  

Kerry never had that appeal.  Gore only has that appeal when he knows that nothing is on the line (though I'd give him a chance in 2008 if he can bring the real Al Gore to the stage).  Obama has that appeal just as Clinton did.  They are rock stars.  They are the kind of people others want to be near just to say they were near them.  THAT is what gets you elected.  


by sterno on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 11:44:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Two Obamas and Me, Part One (none / 0)

Because it worked for Bush, doesn't mean we should try it.


Bob Brigham Blog
by Bob Brigham on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 11:48:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Two Obamas and Me, Part One (none / 0)

It didn't work for Bush.  First of all, if we want to get real technical he didn't win at all.  But beyond that, the bar for him was pretty low.  He only had to be more appealing than a chronically stiff Gore.  How hard was that really?


by sterno on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 01:37:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Two Obamas and Me, Part One (none / 0)

You can't compare the Bush family name to a Barack Obama.

Bush's run in 2000 was the exception to the rule.

Any other candidate, Dem or Rep with the Thin Resume, short public experience, & reputation for grammatically ineptness would have never made it past the primary.

Bush's family name carried him all the way. You & I, and millions of Democrats may not have found anything positive about the Bush family name- but we do not get to decide general elections.

Its the millions of non-partisan moderate Independent voters who always make the difference in a general election.

For many of these people, the Bush name was still an honorable political family. ( Until Dubya really damaged it in the last 6 years )
Of course rank & file repubs respect & admire the Bush legacy ( back then)

Watch in 2012 or 2016, if indeed Jeb Bush runs- he will still be a favored candidate due in part to being a Bush.

Just like Hillary is getting lots of mileage for being a Mrs. Clinton.

Barack Obama cannot be compared to the Bush run.


by livyoga on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 02:52:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Way to early-he is in honeymoon (none / 0)

I hope you know that we are way to early to conclude that Obama's positive view & favorable MSM will continue.

History always shows that once the MSM puts you up on a pedestal because you are a fresh face, they will also come down very hard on you once the honeymoon is over.

Believe me, there are plenty of Democrats even beyond the netroots community who have a lot of reservation about Obama.

The rank & file & even the State Democratic party chairs in Red states in the South, Mountain States & midwest have expressed their concern with a Obama or Hillary as the nominee.

The State chairs of AL, MS & SC recently expressed those view publicly. They are sick & tired of not being able to use our National Ticket to campaign in their states.

There concern is this is counter productive to a real 50 state strategy in 2008. This would be John Kerry all over again. Where Democratic candidates for House, Senate & Governor in places like SC, NC, TN, AL,MS,AR,LA,MT,WY,ID would hide & run away from Kerry.  

Obama or Hillary do not bring any positive & any reason to even campaign in Red states. They would actually hurt candidates there

Yes, they could still win with just Blue states but it will be very difficult.

This could also be devastating to our 1st term House members in Red States who will be very vulnerable as 1st term members. Not to mention is would greatly affect our plans to expand our majority since the National ticket will be very weak in these Red & Purple states & drag down our candidates.


by livyoga on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 12:45:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Way to early-he is in honeymoon (none / 0)

Come on, that's ridiculous. Barack Obama as a person, a speaker and as a campaigner is far and away better than John Kerry ever could have been. I don't know how you compare the two to be honest. Obama really hit Southern Illinois hard when was running for Senator, and that tells me he's savvy enough to know that he needs to win over the people who might not vote Democratic.

But what I really believe about the MSM is that Obama is the one person who will come above all of blog-talk nonsense that people are trying to apply here.

So, Chris Bowers doesn't like him much. You know, for as big a part as the blogs can sometimes play, we are surrounded in real life by people who don't read blogs everyday...who remember vaguely Obama's 2004 convention speech, who read about the guy in the newspaper and see him on TV and say, "I like that guy". Somehow he's becoming bigger than all of this. Obama is one of the few candidates that'll come along who can utterly ignore the blogs, barely mention his opponent, campaign wherever he wants to and will inspire people to vote who usually don't because he's NOT attacking his opponents but offering vision.

Again, I don't like some of the things he's had to say about the 'left', but you know what? An awful lot of people think that stuff is true. And yes, there are even Democrats who think so, regardless of what is said at MyDD.


by mihan on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 08:03:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

He Tells Popular Lies, What's Not To Like??? (3.00 / 3)

Again, I don't like some of the things he's had to say about the 'left', but you know what? An awful lot of people think that stuff is true. And yes, there are even Democrats who think so, regardless of what is said at MyDD.

An awful lot of people think Saddam had WMDs, too.  So why not say that?

My question is this: what wouldn't Obama say?  What lie wouldn't he tell, provided an awful lot of people think it's true?

Is it good enough to support a candidate who only tells popular lies, not unpopular ones?

Is that our standard in the Democratic Party now?


by Paul Rosenberg on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 09:46:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He Tells Popular Lies, What's Not To Like??? (3.00 / 1)

can you explain what you mean when you talk about obama's alleged lies? or are you pulling this out of your ass?


by eddersen on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 10:15:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: alleged lies (3.00 / 2)

Chris provided the straw-man quotes in his diary - the straw-man implies that the described position and person or people are real when they are not. Perpetuating false, essentially right-wing caricatures of liberals/progressives is hugely counterproductive to achieving the goals we all, I hope, have.


by Joe in Wynnewood PA on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 01:00:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Way to early-he is in honeymoon (3.00 / 1)

I think you're absolutely right that Obama has the potential to be one of the few candidates who can so entirely transcend the netroots--and even the grassroots--that he has a chance of being elected via national media alone. That's one reason his candidacy frightens me. (Though, of course, I'd fight hard for him in the general.)

I much prefer a candidate who is beholden to the grassroots.

And the very problem is that a lot of people think that leftie strawmen are true. That's why he shouldn't be perpetuating them. If his strawmen were things like, 'Some on the left say we must balance every budget even if that means slashing all social programs to the bone,' then they wouldn't be as objectionable.


by BingoL on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 09:52:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Way to early-he is in honeymoon (3.00 / 2)

So, Chris Bowers doesn't like him much.

How the hell did you reach that conclusion? Have we now reached the point that any criticism of Obama on his merits equates to extreme dislike?


by lightyearsfromhome on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 09:53:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Way to early-he is in honeymoon (none / 0)

Have we now reached the point that any criticism of Obama on his merits equates to extreme dislike?

How the hell does "Bowers doesn't like him much", translate into "extreme dislike"? Seems like there is a difference between the two. Bowers said he liked him a lot before, now, not so much.

Have we reached a point where anyone in favor of Obama is automatically considered to be a blind supporter, who isn't interested in pursuing legitimate criticism? This is really sad that it has come to this. You'd think that Obama has just pissed in the cereal of every wannabe netroots activist on MyDD. If anything Obama may take these hints from the netroots, but you might want to rethink this fight...its not productive, not is it one that can be one.


by mihan on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 11:20:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Two Obamas and Me, Part One (3.00 / 1)

Once the MSM determines that the honeymoon is over, he will get a lot of tough questions. People will really know what he's all about.

At the end, I predict Obama & Hillary will knock out each other. Another candidate or two will emerge. Hillary will be weakened by her lost of African-American support while Obama will need more than the Black vote.

Let's face it, his base will be the African-American  community. But we all know that it won't be enough. He will no doubt be in the top tier of 3 or 4 candidates.

But his only hope in the primary will be to get enough support from progressive Democrats to take him over the hill.

Even if he tries to play the center, there is no room for him among moderate/conservative democrats. Moderate/Conservative Democrats in the south, Mountain states & midwest would no doubt be more attracted to an Edwards, Bayh or Clark.

Obama's only shot is winning enough blocks of progressives. That's going to be the Million Dillar question for him in 2008.

Can Obama attract enough progressives to put him over the top?


by livyoga on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 12:30:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Two Obamas and Me, Part One (none / 0)

You do sound a little bruised. We need pit bulls, not posers.


by SqueakyRat on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 10:48:47 PM EST

Re: The Two Obamas and Me, Part One (3.00 / 1)

I'm glad that you at least cited specific examples of what he does that bothers you.  I read a lot of how he's a DLC Democrat or hostile to progressives and never really understand where it's coming from.  At least this is documenting him saying things you find offensive as a progressive.

I also don't like his quote on being opposed to the war.  I don't understand why he would feel the need to justify being opposed to the war by essentially saying he's not a crazy liberal.  

With that said, for everything Obama says that i don't like he says 10 that are really inspiring.  I really think he has far more potential than any of the other Democratic contenders.  After seeing him in person and watching a crowd of 3,000 people react to him it's hard not be absolutely amazed.  Lets just say that Edwards and Kerry never had and never will have what Obama does.

The main reason I support Obama is the same reason I supported Dean in 2004, I think he's real.  I know the two quotes you cited as pretty much the opposite of that, much for the most part he really speaks how he feels and unlike Dean he can convey himself brillantly.  

I guess I see the potential for what happened to Gore in 2000 to happen to Obama, which would be to completely monitor everything he says and pander to the center as much as possible.  His disclaimer for his opposition to the war would be a great example of him doing this.  However, I really have faith that he'll be more of a Bobby Kennedy than an Al Gore if he decides to run.  Of course only time will tell.


by blueryan on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 10:49:55 PM EST

Oboomlet (3.00 / 3)

It's easier to give a great campaign speech than it is to be a great senator.

It's not so easy being a senator; let's see how he does at that before talking him up for president. You say he's changed already; he'll probably change some more.

I want to see how he behaves when the heat is on. I don't want to start discovering things about him in the middle of a presidential campaign.

The last time a senator was elected president during the middle of his first term was never.


by stevehigh on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 10:51:36 PM EST

Re: Oboomlet (3.00 / 1)

Actually, it was 1960.
by Chris Bowers on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 11:02:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oboomlet (3.00 / 2)

Actually, it was not.  John F. Kennedy was elected to the Senate in 1952 beating Henry Cabot Lodge and reelected in 1958.


by Mimikatz on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 11:12:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Plus four years in the House 1948-1952 (none / 0)

Hence, Quayle: "I had exactly the same number of years of experience as John Kennedy when he ran for office."


by stevehigh on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 01:10:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oboomlet (none / 0)

Great idea Steve.

Campaigning is much easier than legislating as a Senator. Your real views come out.

Some people here say go easy on him. Do you realize how the GOP machine will attempt to destroy him if he is the nominee.

Once he declares, tough, fair questions will have to be thrown at him by democrats across the country. This is the only way to find out what Barack Obama is really all about.


by livyoga on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 12:52:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oboomlet (none / 0)

This is why I don't want anyone who hasn't held elective office before--it changes people, and I would really like to know who we are dealing with, before we elect them.


"You say the world has lost it's love I say embrace what it's made of" -Dar Williams
by Valatan on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 09:08:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Two Obamas and Me, Part One (3.00 / 0)

Judging by the two quotes, it is pretty obvious that since Obama is running for President, he is trying to reach out to religious/value voters, a group that Kerry overwhelmingly lost in 04'.

I think Obama is the Real Deal - he is just setting himself up for the general election. He'll have to say things like this if he wants to win.

And I don't think he is trying to hurt the Democrats... remember, it is possible that very soon, he is the face of the party.


by musa on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 10:54:50 PM EST

"Setting himself up for the general" (3.00 / 5)

   There are lots of problems with strategy.  Just look at Hillary Clinton.  He has to win the Democratic primary first.  But there is something bigger at stake with Obama.  He is trying to win IN SPITE of us, and not with us.  We just want to be a part of the coalition.  
   The purpose of the site is to build the progressive movement.  If Obama feels like he needs to jettison the progressive movement along the way, even if only in rhetoric, then he is not our candidate.  "Liberal" will continue to be a curse word (and the associated policies rejected out of hand) if we get a Democratic candidate who needs desperately to portray himself as everything to everybody.  It will be a hollow, short-lived victory for the progressive movement if a Biden-type Democrat is nominated.  Lots is at stake.  
Jim Oberweis
by cilerder86 on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 11:20:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Two Obamas and Me, Part One (3.00 / 4)

Bill Clinton destroyed the democratic party saying shit like this.  


"You say the world has lost it's love I say embrace what it's made of" -Dar Williams
by Valatan on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 09:11:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Two Obamas and Me, Part One (none / 0)

are you kidding? please tell me you're kidding.

bill clinton was the first democrat since FDR to serve two full terms. did you not understand that? let me repeat: bill clinton was the first democrat in 50 years to serve out two full terms.

i have some issues with bill clinton. i thought he could have been a little bit more steadfast in his handling of the "don't ask, don't tell policy" among other things. but please don't say that bill clinton destroyed the democratic party. that comment reeks of ignorance.


by eddersen on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 10:19:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Two Obamas and Me, Part One (3.00 / 2)

eddersen,

Are YOU Kidding?  The Democrats lost both chambers of Congress during his first term for the first time in like 50 years!  We only JUST got them back, TWELVE years later.

I like Bill Clinton too, but he did what was good for Bill Clinton, not for the Democratic Party.  That was what kept him from being a great president as opposed to a good one.  


by IsThisOverYet on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 11:42:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Whatever (none / 0)

Yeah he won.  But his coattails did almost nothing to help congress.  Aside from his poorly sold health care plan, he spent his energies pushing a more moderate version of the Republican agenda.  He never missed an opportunity to throw progressives under the bus, and he was the one that put all of the DLC types in power in the first place.  He did nothing to prevent the media from framing all of '90s politics in terms of Republican ideas.  Progressives have many, many reasons to be mad at Clinton.  The victory this year was possible only because the Democrats finally rejected the strategy of the Clintonistas.

Oh, and he ran against Bob Dole in 1996, who, at best, was a weak candidate, and in 1992, he benefited from a three way race and a George Bush I that was at perhaps the weakest point of his presidency


"You say the world has lost it's love I say embrace what it's made of" -Dar Williams
by Valatan on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 03:19:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Two Obamas and Me, Part One (3.00 / 9)

I'm Jewish. How do you think other people would like it if I went on tv and said, "All too often Jews are greedy and try to cheat other people. We need to remember to be honest in our business dealings, whether our customers are fellow Jews or gentiles."

This is how Obama sounds to me when he builds himself up by repeating negatives stereotypes about Democrats.

I wish he would stop, but the media are rewarding him for this kind of rhetoric, so I expect him to stick with it.


John McCain: 100 years in Iraq "would be fine with me."
by desmoinesdem on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 10:55:51 PM EST

Re: The Two Obamas and Me, Part One (none / 0)

This is a great analogy.  I identify very personally with my progressive politics, as I imagine some people identify with their religious faith or, even, their ethnicity.  Yes, to me my political world view is that personal.  Your analogy crystallized for me exactly how I feel when I read comments by Democrats that reinforce the caricature of progressives that the MSM peddles.


Vox Mia -- Adding My Voice to the Chorus
by bedobe on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 11:03:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Two Obamas and Me, Part One (none / 0)

how in the world is he reinforcing the caricatures??? did you even read those quotes?


by eddersen on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 12:15:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

how he's reinforcing the caricatures (3.00 / 5)

Well, in one of the quotes Obama says, "So we have to remember that not every mention of God is automatically threatening a theocracy."

That reinforces the caricature that liberals or Democrats or progressives  want to ban all mentions of God and think that anyone who mentions God is trying to impose a theocracy.

It reinforces the caricature that the Democratic Party is unfriendly to people who speak openly of their faith.

We all know that is a bunch of crap. Obama is building himself up by contrasting himself to those other Democrats who allegedly can't abide any mention of God.


John McCain: 100 years in Iraq "would be fine with me."
by desmoinesdem on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 12:58:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: how he's reinforcing the caricatures (none / 0)

The other thing your parallel makes clear is this: if a Jew says,  as a Jew and to Jews, something like you say above, that's fine. God knows I've said things about Jews in a Jewish context that I'd never say anywhere else. But when I say those things, I say 'we.' I don't say 'they.' I speak to my community as a member of my community, and I own my community. If a progressive wants to berate progressives, that's perfectly fine: just do it as a progressive.

Also helps if you have  reason for the complaint, and not just a vague straw man, of course ...


by BingoL on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 09:59:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Two Obamas and Me, Part One (none / 0)

I think that what we need to do is figure out what's going on in Obama's head. Has his time in the Senate changed his outlook on partisanship or his ideology? Is he posing against the left falsely in order to run for the presidency? I don't think he's so aggressively setting up these triangulations that they threaten the left yet, so I'd say we figure out his motives before we pass any judgement.

Also, his response on religion makes sense as retail politics at a public forum - the woman's question suggested that every mention of religion did threaten theocracy in her mind. Was this forum intended for mass consumption?


by CT student on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 10:55:59 PM EST

Re: The Two Obamas and Me, Part One (none / 0)

"Has his time in the Senate changed his outlook on partisanship or his ideology?"

He hadn't been sworn in when he picked Lieberman as his mentor. I still find that very troubling, especially as his supporters are now touting his anti-war creds.


by BlueinColorado on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 11:28:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Two Obamas and Me, Part One (none / 0)

do you pick those or are they assigned to you?  i had thought they were assigned but i could be wrong.


www.adamconner7.com
by Adam Conner on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 02:34:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Two Obamas and Me, Part One (3.00 / 1)

they pick their mentors, I'm pretty sure. My own DINOcrat, Torture Ken Salazar, picked John McCain, so I guess Obama could have done worse.


by BlueinColorado on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 10:31:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Two Obamas and Me, Part One (none / 0)

I think that what we need to do is figure out what's going on in Obama's head. Has his time in the Senate changed his outlook on partisanship or his ideology? Is he posing against the left falsely in order to run for the presidency? I don't think he's so aggressively setting up these triangulations that they threaten the left yet, so I'd say we figure out his motives before we pass any judgement.

Also, his response on religion makes sense as retail politics at a public forum - the woman's question suggested that every mention of religion did threaten theocracy in her mind. Was this forum intended for mass consumption?


by CT student on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 10:55:59 PM EST

Re: The Two Obamas and Me, Part One (none / 0)

Sorry for the double post...


by CT student on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 10:57:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Two Obamas and Me, Part One (3.00 / 6)

Obama is more than capable of Kennedyesque speech. But that's not what I'm looking for. I'm looking for the first part of the two Lyndon Johnsons--specifically, the man who remembered his poor TX roots but who also remembered how Texans got legislation through the state house. The time for great ideas is not now, IMO. This is the time for getting things done. Inspiration is important, but I'd rather have the guy who figured out how to cut through the red tape and get two medi-vac planes to New Orleans after Katrina than the guy who gave fancy speeches about the impact of Katrina.


by grayslady on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 11:01:24 PM EST

Re: The Two Obamas and Me, Part One (3.00 / 1)

Chris:

I know I for one find this guy to have the ability to transcend our time and hope that he can fight throw everything and actually live up to his ultimate potential.  Being a man with young kids and facing the prospect of large sums of student loans at the end of graduate school in May, I find myself fighting a battle of wanting to get on a plane and help this man get elected president in any way that I am able to when/if he declares himself eligible.  


Mark
by Mark J. Bowers on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 11:04:25 PM EST

Re: The Two Obamas and Me, Part One (3.00 / 1)

Dude, you are going to ditch your family for 20 months for a senator who should be considered to rank behind four others who haven't even been sworn in yet?


Bob Brigham Blog
by Bob Brigham on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 11:18:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Two Obamas and Me, Part One (none / 0)

I think that is a rather trite interpretation of what I would consider doing if he were to throw his hat into the race.  The fact of the matter is that, in my opinion, once he does throw his hat in he instantly becomes THE candidate.  


Mark
by Mark J. Bowers on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 01:15:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The candidate for VP, maybe (none / 0)

Gore will be the nominee, despite his contentions that he will not run. Maybe Obama would make a good VP, maybe not, but he most certainly will not stop the Gore machine.


Future Majority / Young Philly Politics
by Alex Urevick on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 01:37:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

First They Ripen, Then They Rot. (3.00 / 1)

Doesn't it look like sort of a John Kerry syndrome. Now Kerry comes from my state, and I always vote for him. And he did win the presidential election of 2004, but if I had hired this guy to run for president for me, I would have given him the "this isn't working out" routine. And I'm not sure of exactly why. But his style of dealing with the neocon wingnuts just doesn't get the weeds plowed under. And Obama looks to be the same kind of too-damn-risk-averse type. The people who run the Commonwealths disgraceful lottery at least have a catchy little mantra: "You can't win if you don't play." Well I'm not gonna run right out and buy a scratch ticket! But for someone running for something like the presidential office, some chances must be taken.

If you even just think about it, imagine (God forbid!) you woke up as George W. Bush! If it was me, and I had to talk like he does, I would just have my mouth sewn shut, and suck juice through a straw. But this guy just yaks and yaks on and on insanely. And enough people vote for him to let him think he's been elected. Actually, now I can say I said something good about George W!


by blues on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 11:08:54 PM EST

Thank God Kerry Won! (none / 0)

Because 4 more years of GW Bush would have been terrible...

Are you being serious, or was that a joke?


Future Majority / Young Philly Politics
by Alex Urevick on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 01:39:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thank God Kerry Won! (none / 0)

It's very well-accepted in the anti-vote-scam community that Kerry almost certainly won, in terms of real voter intent, in 2004.


by blues on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 09:26:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Give him time... (3.00 / 0)

I feel like a lot of the criticism of Obama comes less from any actual betrayal than from a betrayal of a idealistic image of him.  If anything perhaps it's good to see some realism settling in because, in the end, he's a politician.  

I'll openly admit that I know little about him from any kind of personal experience.  I voted for him and put a window sign up for him and think he's a fantastic public speaker, but his victory was such a foregone conclusion that I didn't feel much need to invest in his campaign.  I had no skin in the game, so I'm obviously more detached from this than others.  Take that for what it's worth.

You seem to have blinders on for lack of a better word.  I have seen people who say Iraq is only about oil.  I marched in protests against the war with them.  They certainly exist.  Are they big time Democratic politicians?  No.  But they certainly do exist and are part of the activist base that I also consider myself to be part of.  Pretending they do not exist does not benefit us.  

In the end, is Obama the ideal progressive candidate?  No, because no such beast exists.  He will invariably do many things we do not like.  He will make compromises that make no sense to us.  As much as some people would like to see a third Clinton term, he's also the same guy that sold us down the river on NAFTA.  Politics is compromise and with that, idealism will always hit a brick wall at some point.

So my take is give him time and let's see what he does with this if he is indeed running rather than selling books.  He'll go out there and he'll speak and he'll lay out his agenda, and then we can judge him based on the merits.  

Then the people in Iowa will decide if he's our candidate :)


by sterno on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 11:09:25 PM EST

Re: Give him time... (3.00 / 4)

The point is...
'
Why does the left have to answer for every nutbar in a protest while the right can pretend like the free republic and little green footballs don't even exist?  Especially when their elected officials are about 1,000 times more partisan and extreme than the extremely timid Democrats, it seems insane.
"You say the world has lost it's love I say embrace what it's made of" -Dar Williams
by Valatan on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 09:18:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Give him time... (none / 0)

So then where does the praise come from? Certainly it doesn't seem to be coming from any actions/votes on his part.


Future Majority / Young Philly Politics
by Alex Urevick on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 01:42:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Oil (none / 0)


Isn't "some who think Bush went into Iraq for the oil" more or less a reference to Michael Moore? Yes,  Farenheit 9/11's oil sequence is more about that pipeline into Afganistan but I think Iraq figures in there too, no?

Anyway, I think it's disingenuous to pretend that that claim about Bush isn't out there. What's more, one could easily imagine a Republican complaining that OBAMA is putting that meme out there when he says "I wouldn't go so far as to say Bush invaded Iraq for the oil"; on the model of "I would never be one to accuse my Democratic opponents of being communists."


by Ottoe on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 09:23:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Two Obamas and Me, Part One (3.00 / 1)

I think you are being a bit too parochial and defensive here. This is not about straw men. Obama can do here is help redefine the Progressive left as not being hostile to religion but in the tradition of the left to draw upon the prophetic religious tradition for the values that transform the social order in the direction of peace and social justice. He is able to engage people in this country who are motivated by religious values and do it from a place that is credible.  


by cmpnwtr on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 11:11:09 PM EST

Is this how he defends? (3.00 / 3)

"So we have to remember that not every mention of God is automatically threatening a theocracy."  This sounds like something Bill O'Reilly would say.  He's telling us what we think and why it's wrong.  That's not leading.  


Jim Oberweis
by cilerder86 on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 11:24:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Two Obamas and Me, Part One (3.00 / 7)

"Obama can do here is help redefine the Progressive left as not being hostile to religion."

I didn't realize we were hostile to religion. I don't see how Obama claiming that some Demcorats somewhere who have no power or no microphone are hostile to religion helps change out image on that one.
by Chris Bowers on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 12:40:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Religion and the left (none / 0)

As a Christian (of Obama's denomination), I've found the left blogosphere inhospitable to my religious beliefs. I'm forever wincing my way past commenters who equate the theocratic televangelists they're familiar with to Christians in general, including Catholic Workers, Quakers, and we who work in homeless shelters. Here it isn't too bad; DK is offputting.

Then again, in some of his comments on religion and the left, Obama ignores all us religious leftists, too.


by joyful alternative on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 12:05:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

First impression was right..."greatness" (3.00 / 1)

"This man has potential for all-time, worldwide greatness for the first half of the 21st century"

Hold that thought!

On the religion thing. You might be over reacting a bit.

"So we have to remember that not every mention of God is automatically threatening a theocracy."

In your example above he doesn't mention "the left" so taking affront as a "leftie" seems a bit of a stretch.  Almost Sirotaish in bending over backwards looking for an insult where none was made nor intended.

Additionally, it's a correct comment. The civil rights movement used religion and churches politically with no overtones of theocracy that we see in the right wing today.

Where Obama shines is he can articulate between the left and right wing use of religion, between use of religion for moral persausaion vs. theocracy.

That articulation is what has been missing from the Democrats rhetorical arsenal.


by BrionLutz on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 11:13:32 PM EST

..."greatness" (3.00 / 2)

I don't think there's an appreciation among the secular warriors, where there's something approaching hostility to anything that appreciates religiosity in politics, for the distinction you are making. The whole rhetoric of criticism toward Obama seems to expect that he follow the traditional 'far to the left' secular approach for '08; where instead, I see him actually engaged in an effort to break down misperceptions while creating new ones. I don't think Chris is correct at all in saying that there are two Obama's at work, because this sounds no different than the Obama I listened to in 2004 at the DNC convention. He speaks using religious terminology as a Democrat-- something that's been at the core of the historical populist movement in this country and long missing within the Democratic Party. A secular warrior would not find it very interesting, and perhaps threatening, being much more comfortable with Howard Dean taking on the fundamentalist preacher, but there should be little doubt that Obama is more effective in terms of neutralizing the base of the Republican Party's politicization of religion.


by Jerome Armstrong on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 01:04:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ..."greatness" (none / 0)

Is he breaking down misconceptions, or speaking in code?

The question: "What does the senator think of the pervasiveness of religion in public discourse these days?"

Translated: 'What does Obama think of the political power of people who are offended by the notion of a Moslem Congessman swearing into office on the Koran?"

His answer: "No one would say that Dr. King should leave his moral vision at the door before getting involved in public-policy debate ... we have to remember that not every mention of God is automatically threatening a theocracy."

Translated (from anti-left code): I have no problem with them. They're doing exactly what Dr. King did, bringing faith to bear on the political process. Furthermore, despite the claims of 'some on the left,' we should encourage religion and religious speech in politics.'

Or, translated (breaking down misconceptions): I have no problem with them, because we should bring our own left-wing political faith, like Dr. King did, into the process. Not every mention of God refers to the God of the theocons."


by BingoL on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 10:20:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Really? (3.00 / 2)

long missing within the Democratic Party

Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton, Al Gore, John Kerry.  Each of them is very connected with their faith, and each of them did/does include the terminology of faith in their public discourse; it is perfectly natural for them to do so; it is not forced.  (I can't remember much of Fritz Mondale's discourse, but somehow I doubt it was faith-free; I see on Wikipedia his dad was a minister.)  Anyway these were the most recent standard-bearers of our party, the people our party nominated to speak for us.  (Oh, yes, and I shouldn't forget the VP nominees Joe Lieberman and John Edwards.)

So, really, what is your evidence of this long missingness you refer to?


Keep it short. DemocraticShortList.com
by Rob in Vermont on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 01:01:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: First impression was right... (none / 0)

Obama says "not every mention of God is automatically threatening a theocracy".

And your interpretation is that Obama isn't criticizing the left?

If I said "not every mention of gun control is automatically threatening the right to bear arms" am I criticizing the right?  


by RickD on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 12:54:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Two Obamas and Me, Part One (3.00 / 1)

Chris,

Thanks for this post -- I hope that it's only the first of many taking a critical look at the "Obama phenomenon".  Curiously, I can see how, if the progressive blogsphere becomes "too critical" of an Obama '08 run, this may be used by the Obama camp as his Sister Souljah moment.  Regardless, I sincerely hope that -- as some, including David Sirota, have done -- the progressive blogsphere starts to turn a critical eye on Obama's frequent use of the "liberal straw man," as he triangulates.  

Great post.


Vox Mia -- Adding My Voice to the Chorus
by bedobe on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 11:14:00 PM EST

Re: The Two Obamas and Me, Part One (3.00 / 1)

What we don't need is dishonesty and cliques.

Has Obama revealed a strong capacity for dishonesty?  Yes.  These "straw men" that Chris has accurately identified are the worst kind of evidence of dishonesty.  How do you tell when Obama is telling the truth?

Has Obama joined a ruling clique whose views he values more than Chris Bowers, for example?  Res ipsa loquitur.

Look, I don't want to be identified as a someone with a looney, idée fixe that lurks in blog comment sections proposing his troubled version of reality, but what we do need is someone, like Ned Lamont, who is the real thing and not the member of any clique.  And who can appeal to a broad cross-section of Americans.

Name anyone on the national scene today who fills that description.  The forces of darkness would have you believe that it's some kind of satanic marriage between Bloomberg and Lieberman.

It's someone a hell of a lot more like, in fact it is, Jame Webb.

Draft him before the country goes to hell.


by Ethelred on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 11:14:28 PM EST

Re: The Two Obamas and Me, Part One (none / 0)

Sorry, but I believe Virginia has him for now.


by musa on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 11:17:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Another "Obama killed Lamont" lament.... (3.00 / 0)

Dude...get over it...you go through an odd littany of items with ZERO examples and then the real issue (for you) pops up...nefarious Ned Lamont.

Obama supported Leiberman in the primary...get over it. He supported Lamont when Lamont got the Democratic nomination. That's his call...one Bill Clinton made also.

I understand a large portion of the netocracy has a huge psychic investment in Lamont but Obama is not why Lamont didn't win...the voters of CT made that choice and it was overwhelming.

If Obama had to choose between an appearance for Lamont or Webb...he picked Webb...and it was the right call.

If you are going to blame Obama for Lamont then you'd have to "credit" him with Webb and winning the Senate...and that's a good trade.


by BrionLutz on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 11:27:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"Obama killed Lamont" lament.... (none / 0)

i totally sympathize with you. i hate lieberman's guts, but you can really see the level of naiveté in some members of the netroots when you hear them talk about lamont.

not a member of any cliques? the real deal? get a clue. lamont is a wealthy WASP man from connecticut.

barack obama and russ feingold are far more of a "real deal" than ned lamont.


by eddersen on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 12:37:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Another "Obama killed Lamont" lament (3.00 / 1)

Great support that Obama and Clinton gave Lamont.  It was half-hearted at best.  If we gain more Senate seats in 2 years and they don't kick Lieberputz out, then we know where Reid & Co. really stand.  Also, if Clinton and Obama really supported Lamont, they would have forced Lieberliar out, right after his primary defeat.


Jim Webb - Born Fighting
by Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 12:50:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Another "Obama killed Lamont" lament (3.00 / 1)

Yeah if only Obama wasn't out wasting his time campaigning to make sure people like Claire McCaskill and Jim Webb won he might have been able to campaign against someone that will actually caucus with the Dems if he wins.  


by blueryan on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 01:05:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Another "Obama killed Lamont" lament (3.00 / 2)

So the fact that the primary was all for naught doesn't mean anything to you?  Also, I guess you know about the whole day off between stops in NY and Massachusetts thing?  Lets face it, Obama and Clinton didn't cover themselves in glory as far as Lieberliar/Lamont goes.  Did Lieberliar really need to get a standing "O" when he came back to the Senate?  Also, he won only because all the Repubs supported him.


Jim Webb - Born Fighting
by Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 01:10:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Another "Obama killed Lamont" lament (3.00 / 2)

"So the fact that the primary was all for naught doesn't mean anything to you?"

So the fact that the voters of CT creamed Lamont means nothing to you?

The fact that polls showed Lamont a near hopeless case once Leiberman stayed in means nothing to you?

The fact that Webb and others had a very good shot and they wanted Obama to help them means nothing to you?

The fact that Webb won by whisker and this was one of his main campaign photos means nothing to you?

The fact that you are looking at next Prez and VP means nothing to you?


by BrionLutz on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 02:11:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Another "Obama killed Lamont" lament (3.00 / 1)

Thanks for using a Lieberliar talking point to make your point.  If Lieberliar wanted to run no matter the outcome of the primary, why didn't he just switch his party affiliation to Republican.


Jim Webb - Born Fighting
by Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 10:13:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Another "Obama killed Lamont" lament (1.00 / 2)

you're a psycho. shut up about lieberman already. we hate lieberman. just like you. you're so self-righteous. get over yourself.


by eddersen on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 10:25:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Another "Obama killed Lamont" lament (none / 0)

Speak for yourself.  What's good for the goose is good for the gander.


Jim Webb - Born Fighting
by Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 06:04:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Another "Obama killed Lamont" lament (3.00 / 1)

I prefer Democrats over "people who lost Democratic primaries but promise to caucus with Democrats all the while accepting money from Republicans, campaigning Republicans, and threatening liberals with defection".


by RickD on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 01:06:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Two Obamas and Me, Part One (3.00 / 0)

I respect the candor and quality of this post.  I've been fairly concerned with what I perceive to be an unjustified backlash against the senator from Illinois.  It is nice to see a post that calmly articulates real issues with Obama.

That being said, I interpret Obama's comments in a very different way.  When he uses the straw man, I see it as an attempt by him to dispel misconceptions about Democrats and progressives.  We have to remember that to a lot of America, Obama probably represents the progressive movement.  When he says that he doesn't think we invaded just for oil, yeah, he's distancing himself from some people on the far-left.  But he's also distancing liberals like myself from the right-wing caricatures of my beliefs.  Yeah, in doing so he is, in some small way, buying into their attacks.  But in doing so, he is breaking down their tired arguments.

It's obvious that a lot of people in the netroots feel betrayed by Obama.  I don't share in that feeling (and I also worked on his 2004 campaign), but I also don't want to marginalize it.  It's my hope that we can move past this.


by LPMandrake on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 11:31:04 PM EST

Re: The Two Obamas and Me, Part One (none / 0)

that's EXACTLY what obama is doing. he's dispelling preconceived notions of democrats, not perpetuating them. his arguments go, "you may think that democrats are [tired old stereotype here], but look at me - i'm a democrat and i'm [progressive position here]."

chris bowers doesn't understand the difference between ADDRESSING a misconception and PERPETUATING it.

obama 2008!


by eddersen on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 11:35:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Two Obamas and Me, Part One (3.00 / 0)

Please!!  Are you saying Chris has zero reading comprehension?


Jim Webb - Born Fighting
by Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 12:52:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Two Obamas and Me, Part One (3.00 / 6)

No, I'm afraid you're missing the difference between ACKNOWLEDGING a misconception, therby perpetuating it, and ADRESSING a misconception.

Look, in Debate, they tell us to NEVER do what you just did above. By acknowledging the idea that Dems think we invaded Iraq for its oil (and who else could he possibly be referring to there), or acknowleging the idea that Dems are hostile to religion, he implicitly endorces that viewpoint. What he should be saying is, "Look, I believe that God is important, yet I'm still a progressive", thereby telling people that progressives as a whole aren't hostile to religion.

He's not even doing what you claim he's doing - instead of saying, "Some think x, but in fact y", he says "Some think x, and we really need to change that."

Do you see how he distances himself as something unique and different from the left, instead of embracing the left? Do you see how he discraces the left in the process?


by pluto101 on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 08:56:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Two Obamas and Me, Part One (none / 0)

chuckle
And some people don't understand the DIFFERENCE between persuasive ARGUMENT and liberal usage of CAPS LOCK.
by RickD on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 01:07:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Two Obamas and Me, Part One (3.00 / 0)

I agree. Those strawmen exist whether Obama mentiones them or not. He is simply trying to dispell them, or at least distance himself from them. The Right has too often successfully linked sensible liberalism with radical conspiracy theorists. I think it is good Obama is addressing this directly.


by mhoffa1382 on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 12:12:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

don't strawman obama either, chris (1.66 / 3)

barack obama is just pre-emptively insulating himself from criticism. all his arguments are basically saying, "hey, i'm NOT this and that. DON'T strawman me. don't misrepresent what i stand for."

and as far as i can tell from these quotes, he stands for accessible health care, he opposes the war in iraq, and he voiced brave support for separation of church and state.

you know what, chris? i think obama might be a progressive!

you know what else? i think you really overreact a  lot. lighten up.


by eddersen on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 11:31:58 PM EST

Re: don't strawman obama either, chris (3.00 / 1)

We could have said the same thing about Lieberman ten years ago.  There's no reason to do that contrast.  Ever.  

Just say what you believe.  

Let's look at it another way--when a youth pastor says "You might have heard that church isn't FUN, and that youth group isn't COOL--but...", does that encourage the whole junior high to show up for church youth group in droves?  No, because by saying the first clause, you basically admit the sterotype, remind people of it, and reinforce it.  It's a rhetorical technique that never works.


"You say the world has lost it's love I say embrace what it's made of" -Dar Williams
by Valatan on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 09:26:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: don't strawman obama either, chris (none / 0)

Obama expressed support for separation of church and state??

That's not how I read what he said.  He pooh-poohed the idea that such separation should be a concern of Democrats.  That's pretty much the opposite of what I'm looking for.


by RickD on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 01:08:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Two Obamas and Me, Part One (3.00 / 2)

Chris, I see your point, but I tend to agree with the previous commenter. I think what Obama's doing is very different than what Republicans or Lieberman-types do.  He's not triangulating against actual Democrats.  He's triangulating against a fringe position and thereby making the mainstream Democratic position, which he holds, seem entirely moderate by comparison.  Republicans do this all the time, and it's quite effective. By comparing their actual positions to fringe right-wing positions, they themselves appear sensible and moderate.  Obama is quite good at making himself appear moderate or "centrist" when his actual positions on most issues are quite liberal.  He's able to accomplish this by employing rhetorical tactics like the ones you describe.  Ultimately, that's a very good skill for a national Democratic politician to have.  


by Anonymous Liberal on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 11:41:58 PM EST

Re: The Two Obamas and Me, Part One (3.00 / 0)

Good post. I don't get this whole need by Chris to identify with the ultra fringe left position that Obama differentiates himself from in those answers. I think what Chris misses is the point that a national politican has to identify where he is on the spectrum, or otherwise go with a black and white dichotomy-- that's what Bush does and it sucks.

When I was out on the book tour, talking about how Democrats could win in 2006, I often took on thbe questions that implied that Democrats could not win no matter what, because the Republicans owned the machines-- and those claims were coming from the left. It doesn't mean that I was criticizing the entire left in making it a point that I disagreed with those wacky conspiracy theorists.


by Jerome Armstrong on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 12:34:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Two Obamas and Me, Part One (3.00 / 2)

Yet the right gets away with it all the time.  Just look at the whole "the MSM is a bunch lefties" argument.


Jim Webb - Born Fighting
by Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 12:56:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Two Obamas and Me, Part One (3.00 / 9)

He is "defining himself" against unnamed people who have no national presence, no national microphone. Whether or not there are people who think what Obama claims, you can't find anyone with any prominence who has made the sort of statements he has differentiated himself against. What is the point of differentiating yourself against people like that? I might as well differentiate myself agains the anarchists in my neighborhood who similarly high national profiles.

If he wants to differentie himself, fine. But do so against people who can actually speak back. Of late, he has developed a habit of speaking against unnamed people using quotes that no one in a prominent position has ever made. that sort of differentiation does nthing but enoforce stereotypes against Democrats.

And I don't identy with far left dtereotypes--we have all been consistently identified with those stereotypes by others. It happens on a regular basis. It was particuarly prominent during the Lamont-Lieberman primary campaign. republicans have placed us in those groups for years and years. And when anyone brings up those groups--who, as I said, ahve no national microphone--how is it not the same thing as placing us in the groups once again? Those groups are only discussed on the public stage in order to tarnish the entire left with those stereotypes.

He didn't always talk like this, and bring up these stereotypes. I saw him give more than a dozen speeches in the early days. He didn't preface his opposition ot the war back then by pointing out that were anti-war people he felt were nuts. I think there are anti-war people who are nuts, but I don't see why that is relevant to me dicussion of the opposition to the war. Who cares what my lunatic neighbor thin