Edwards Slashes at Obama

One of the coolest differences between 2004 and 2008 is the development of local blogospheres with great writing, pictures, and video.  It's not only that we can get around the self-interested Broderite hacks, but it also shows that there's a real and national progressive political network complementing Dean's 50 state strategy.  Also it's just fun to read, and they are breaking stories.  For instance, Bluehampshire's Mike Caulfield caught this comment from the Edwards  event:

You want to know what a preemptive strike on the Obama candidacy looks like? Here is it is, textbook perfect, from John Edwards himself. Today, standing in front of a sign asserting "Tomorrow Starts Today" he stated:

"Identifying the problem and talking about hope is waiting for tomorrow."

And in perhaps the most brilliant framing I've seen in this campaign so far, he began to weave a theme into the rest of the remarks: There's hope, and there's action. I'm action.

Damn.  

Below Boston has some good coverage of the event, and this piece from Dean Barker is a must-read.

Edwards on the issues? Unabashedly progressive, and directly so.  I want our troops out of Iraq.  Let's call this McCain surge what it is - escalation.  I support universal health care.  Global warming is an issue that will affect everyone in this room, and we need to do something about it yesterday.  There are other ways to be patriotic than war. I'm paraphrasing, but you get the idea.

But here's the thing: even back in 2004, I could never shake the feeling when watching Edwards that I was in the midst of a formidable showman.  Though the 2008 Edwards message appeals to me tremendously, that feeling did not go away.  The bottom line: I don't really care whether a candidate appears sincere or not; it's not about me, it's about advancing true democratic and constitutional values in this country.  But I do want to know whether a President Edwards will be as progressive as the man who was working that school cafeteria crowd, and working it well.  Or to put it another way, the reigning political winds greatly favor, in my opinion, a Democratic president in 2008, so the bar for me is a bit higher than Anybody But Bush this time around.

Since Edwards is going for Dean support, I'm going to finish this post off with a poll for people who supported Dean.  Please only vote in this poll if you supported Dean in 2004.  It's the honor system, so if there's ballot stuffing I'll just cancel the poll.


Poll
Only answer this question if you were a Dean supporter in 2004. Who are you leaning towards in 2008?
John Kerry
Hillary Clinon
Barack Obama
John Edwards
Chris Dodd
Joe Biden
Other
I was not a Dean supporter

Votes: 245
Results : Vote Link : Polls

Display:


Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama (3.00 / 2)

One thing Edwards showed in the primaries last time round is that he is a past master of going negative while making a show of never going negative. That said, I don't think this time round he'll make the mistake of claiming to be Mr Positive. I think his determination never to be seen to be attacking his opponent was responsible for his much-derided performance against Cheney in the debate. It depends on being sly which is hard to do against a bald-faced liar who attacks and attacks based on those lies. I suspect that freed of the pretense of positivity, Edwards will prove a much more formidable debater than he sometimes is given credit for being. I am not a Dean supporter so I am not voting, but Edwards has my vote this time round.


by thesleepthief on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 02:34:05 PM EST

He avoids making overt attacks on other... (3.00 / 2)

...Democrats, but draws distinctions that (obviously) favor his position. That helps keep his "positives" high, which clearly is an asset -- just ask Newt Gingrich 8^P

I've made the point before that I think his debate against Cheney (in a format that favored Cheney) was a demonstration in targeting the essential audience. Cheney already had high "negatives" and aggressive attacks against him would have diminishing returns. Instead, Edwards aimed an overall positive message at undecided voters to draw as clear a distinction as possible between the two men, and that message resonated with voters who had not made up their minds.


John Edwards 2008
by MeanBoneII on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 04:09:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He avoids making overt attacks on other... (3.00 / 4)

I think Edwards did fine in his debate with Cheney. Some dismiss Edwards because he was on a losing ticket in 2004, but that loss was attributable to problems with the top of the ticket, not the vice presidential  candidate. And I think he got some valuable experience in 2004 that will hold him in good stead this go-round.


by jcullen on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 04:33:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Stoller Slashes at Edwards (3.00 / 1)

I was going to avoid getting a user account at this site.. But two of the posts here including this one by Matt made me have to.

The Hampshire blog has very cool UNIQUE insights that yes the MSM missed and is a great diary.  However,  "slashes" is probably a bit too overzealous.

It was SUBTLE  because 6 campaign events covered the exact same speech and NOT ONE of the MSM outlets noticed this.  In contrast,  Buchanan on Harball thought a one sentence release by Obama was a shot at Edwards  .. He called it a "direct shot"..

Of course this time Edwards will have to be much more direct and draw contrasts than last time. 1.  he is not running for VP like Obama CLEARLY is. and 2.  he got a lot of crap from people who liked him for not going after Kerry in the Primary and Cheney in the VP debate.

The only "SLASH" Edwards has taken is directly at McCain by messaging the McCain Doctrine as escalating the war.  A BRILLIANT ploy that helps himself for having the cajones to go right at "the maverick" which hillary and Obama won't, and helps the dem field as well.


Call it "Medicare Option" not public option
by TarHeel on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 01:23:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

A more important distinction (none / 0)

between Edwards and Obama is their respective positions on Iraq. Edwards wants to begin withdrawing immediately. Obama wants to begin in 4 to 6 months? Why does Obama want to wait 4 to 6 months? He doesn't say.


by david mizner on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 04:35:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A more important distinction (3.00 / 2)

Are you sure this is an important distinction?

Are you sure Obama does not explain his plan? You claim he does not say. Do you have evidence?

Tell me about Edwards's plan:
1) How immediate is immediate? Tomorrow? All 40,000 in one day? Does he allow the Iraqis time to adjust their forces to the new reality that we will withdraw a third of our troops? Does he even allow time for our generals and other troops in the field to give input on where, when and how to do the phase out? Phased? If phased, over what period of time? A week? Four to six months?

2) If he is to withdraw nearly 30% of our forces "immediately" what regions and missions would he withdraw them from and which would he leave? In what proportions?

3) Where will the withdrawn troops go? Redeploy to Afghanistan if needed?

I like Edwards and he may well have good answers to all of these questions. But we are not privy to them. And these questions are reasonable.

But it is unreasonable to expect that at an early phase of a campaign Edwards has answers. I take his "immediate" to mean "ASAP" because I give him the benefit of the doubt.

Give the same benefit of the doubt to Obama and others who are on our side. Obama uses different language and actually includes answers to some of the questions above.

Obama's plan, as I read it, includes a period of time in which we basically tell Iraq what we are doing and allow our commanders and the Iraqis to have input on the best way to begin and accomplish the withdrawal (answering many of the questions I pose about Edwards's "plan" above):

Let me be more specific. The President should announce to the Iraqi people that our policy will include a gradual and substantial reduction in U.S. forces. He should then work with our military commanders to map out the best plan for such a redeployment and determine precise levels and dates. When possible, this should be done in consultation with the Iraqi government - but it should not depend on Iraqi approval.

Finally, as Armando aka BTD and others have pointed out, it really is better politics to leave the mess where it belongs, in Bush's lap. I do not mean to say we and our candidates should not outline the broad strokes of an alternative (withdrawal) policy, but fussing over the details is unproductive as neither our Senators nor our candidates are CINC.


Visit DebateScoop
by demondeac on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 05:14:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A more important distinction (none / 0)

The difference between Edwards'  plan and Obama's seems to be that Obama wants to wait and see for 4-6 months and make the decision whether to withdraw then, whereas Edwards has made the decision, and he wants them out now.


by Gpack3 on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 06:00:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A more important distinction (none / 0)

No. Obama has decided. In fact, he decided over a year ago and advocated withdrawal then, too. Obama wants withdrawal. Obama has decided withdrawal is good and wants Bush to make that decision today.

The other commenter was making a semantic point about the timing of the withdrawal as if Edwards's "immediate" withdrawal is a vastly different position than Obama's (and most other Democrats).


Visit DebateScoop
by demondeac on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 06:26:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A more important distinction (3.00 / 1)

What's sad is that this conversation can be repeated on multiple issues with Obama. Name the issue where you can't find a Rorshach like answer. That's at core my frustration. If I asked you to specifically quote where he says what you just said for example  then you would ...?


by bruh21 on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 07:25:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obams's Votes matter more than (3.00 / 1)

talk...  Edwards is much closer to the Kerry-Feingold-boxer-Leahy amendment that Obama.

Despite the rhetoric against the war before he was in the senate Obama voted against the Kerry-feingold-boxer-leahy amendment to start immediate withdrawl of troops with a one year deadline to having them all out of Iraq.


Call it "Medicare Option" not public option
by TarHeel on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 01:28:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What's wrong with that? (3.00 / 1)

Why are you getting all bent out of shape over a true statement that was just posted?

Obama supports a 4-6 month withdrawal while Edwards wants an immediate withdrawal. So what's wrong with that? That seems to be the popular opposing view between most if not all of the 2008 candidates in both parties. Republicans & Democrats.

A few want an immediate withdrawal. While some want a phased-out timeline of withdrawal.

I am not supporting either Edwards or Obama.

But I have to say, there seems to be a very frustrated, sometimes  angry group of Obama supporters in the netroots. They cannot seem to comprehend or understand why Obama is Not getting much traction among progressives in the netroots community.

And your testy response sure does not help win any new supporters to your cause. Relax!

We are all Democrats! You seem to be reading way too much on a simple statement made by the other fellow.


by livyoga on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 08:02:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re:I'm referring to Demon's response-NT (none / 0)


by livyoga on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 08:03:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What's wrong with that? (none / 0)

I am relaxed and am an undecided Democrat. I spend a lot of time "defending" Obama, not attacking others. I do so to try to share the research. Sorry that I came off as testy.

I took issue with the commenter's claim that there was an "important" difference between (or among) the various pullout proposals.

That statement, while semantically true, is potentially a distinction without a difference. What does "immediate" mean? Nobody REALLY supports (nor is it logistically feasible) a pullout of 40,000 troops tomorrow. Edwards has never been asked the series of questions I posed as far as I know, so we are not really sure what "immediate" means.

The commenter also claimed that Obama does not explain why he says 4-6 months. I answered the questions. I just think it is helpful to move these discussions forward to more precise understanding of the issues. If you do not think the further information is helpful, that's fine. Perhaps others will. If you or others know how Edwards might answer the many questions I listed about details, that would be helpful, too.

But, in the end, the main point is that most Democrats, Obama and Edwards among them, share essentially the same position on what to do about Iraq. The precise details of their policy proposals are interestng and debatable when known, but the fact is that the differences are not really politically significant enough to merit rejection (or acceptance) of a candidate even if there are slight policy wonk differences.


Visit DebateScoop
by demondeac on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 09:15:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A more important distinction (none / 0)

4 to 6 months was his original proposal 6 months ago.  Now it's not feasible.
Just as he voted for kerry's bill on timetables and that is why he did not support the Fiengold bill.
People hold that against him because it's always failed to mention he supported Kerry's bill instead.
by vwcat on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 11:44:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Note about 2004 (none / 0)

I wasn't actually committed and I did a few candidate matchers for fun, and ended up matching with Dean. But, I voted for Edwards for strategic purposes (since Edwards and Kerry were the only contenders left by the time my primary came around).

But yeah, John Edwards looks to be putting a new sunny face on contrasting and comparing.

Sorta like "A Reformer with Results", only more realistic.


by RBH on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 02:37:08 PM EST

Re: Note about 2004 (none / 0)

RBH - I agree about the primaries, I've always wished they were held on the same day.  Also, those states with Open Primaries, and no GOP, a lot of Republicans packed the vote against the best dems :(  In my district, word was out to vote for Al Sharpton.


by catchawave on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 04:00:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Note about 2004 (none / 0)

So true. The Super Tuesday results made the remaining state primaries almost meaningless.


by Books Alive on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 04:28:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Where's "Don't Know"? (3.00 / 2)

Every poll should have a "don't know."


by BBCWatcher on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 02:38:29 PM EST

The poll (3.00 / 1)

Thanks for the poll Matt. I've been interested to see for a while where former Dean supporters such as myself stand on Edwards vs Obama.

I have this sense of fatalism that we're marching inexorably towards an Edwards/Obama ticket.

The southern primaries are going to be one helluva fight between the three titans. This should be VERY interesting.


by adamterando on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 02:43:04 PM EST

Re: The poll (none / 0)

If Edwards wins he'll want someone weightier. "Two freshman senators with no executive or foreign policy experience" would be too tempting a target. Richardson would be a likely choice, although another one (with executive if not f.p. experience) might be Neapolitano.


by thesleepthief on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 04:56:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The poll (none / 0)

That's a very reasonable point about experience and needing to "balance" the ticket.  However, with two articulate and charismatic candidates, and the themes that such a ticket would represent, I would hope that they would be able to easily rebut such an expected charge.  Of course, the Kool Kidz in DC would throw that charge at them constantly, but, given the Bush/Cheney administration and their uber-experience, one would hope that Edwards/Obama would have enough ammo to rebuff the charge.


Vox Mia -- Adding My Voice to the Chorus
by bedobe on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 05:02:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The poll (none / 0)

Why "fatalism" about an Edwards/Obama ticket?  See what I wrote elsewhere on this thread about what I consider my dream ticket, Edwards/Obama:

Since we're sharing dream tickets, mine is Edwards/Obama -- generationally, in terms of themes, telegenics and articulateness, Edwards/Obama would shoot anything that reps can put together out of the water, and it would set up Obama very nicely to take over after an eight year Edwards/Obama administration.


Vox Mia -- Adding My Voice to the Chorus
by bedobe on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 04:57:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The poll (none / 0)

Fatalism doesn't necessarily have to have negative connotations. I'm just saying that through the ether and discussions of the last few weeks I have noticed a gradual solidifaction of two factions: an Edwards faction and an Obama faction.

If these factions maintain themselves (assuming of course that Obama runs) throughout the primaries and these factions online are representative of primary voters as a whole (which is not the case, but they are probably more representative of primary voters than Democratic voters as a whole) then it seems natural to me that eventually the two factions will merge as a comprimise and that comprimise will take the form of an Edwards/Obama ticket. I say Edwards at the top because I do not think he would take the number two spot and he is the elder of the two and has been on a national ticket before so it would be more probable that he would be the presidential nominee.

It is my "dream" ticket as well. I just hope and pray (and will work my ass off to make it so) that the American people are ready for such a message and a return to an unabashed communalistic form of politics.


by adamterando on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 05:38:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama (3.00 / 4)

I don't see how that's an attack. Can you explain how explain how saying what is patently true is an attack? I believe Obama can maybe grow into more, but at this point, everything he says is about hope, and his followers seem in general content with this, but then expect more from other candidates.

I will support any Democratic nominee this time.

One other question: What does this mean:

"But I do want to know whether a President Edwards will be as progressive as the man who was working that school cafeteria crowd, and working it well."

It seems like this is an attack without merit. What exactly makes him think Edwards does not mean what he says? Does he think Edwards in NC was faking it? Does he think the other choices he is making are faking it?  


by bruh21 on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 02:47:36 PM EST

I agree, it's a CONTRAST. (3.00 / 1)

What Edwards did is draw a distinction. "Hope" was the theme at Kerry's convention in 2004. Other candidates have made "hope" their buzzword. Edwards is saying it's time for something more substantial.


John Edwards 2008
by MeanBoneII on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 03:42:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It's also subtle self-criticism (3.00 / 1)

Which is nice to see.

I think he perhaps sees Obama as where he was 4 years ago.  Too much emphasis on sunny optimism and not enough (publicly, he did have the only campaign booklet about what he would do, the meme that Edwards lacked substance is wrong) on concrete plans.


Michigan For Edwards and Labor-Netroots for Edwards
by philgoblue on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 04:05:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama 08 is Edwards 04 (none / 0)

one of Edwards' campaign themes in 04 was "hope is on the way".... On hardball edwards reminded an audience questioner that when he asked about Obama's the audacity of hope..

Apparently the MSM can't remember one presidential election cycle backwards.


Call it "Medicare Option" not public option
by TarHeel on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 01:31:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I agree, it's a CONTRAST. (none / 0)

It was also the theme of Edwards. Kerry picked it up from him after choosing him as VP. No one talked about "hope" more than Edwards in 2004.


by lapis on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 04:06:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Somebody stole Edwards' idea? (none / 0)

Say it ain't so :)


John Edwards 2008
by MeanBoneII on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 04:13:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hope is on the way (3.00 / 3)


by jrb1968 on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 04:18:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

thanks for posting that (none / 0)

I forgot Edwards actually had "HOPE" on signs at the convention how worthless our MSM is...


Call it "Medicare Option" not public option
by TarHeel on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 01:32:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I agree, it's a CONTRAST. (3.00 / 2)

"Hope" as a message (The Man From Hope came before Kerry) is the result of studies showing people vote for the optimist over the pessimist.  

Edwards' counter is a good one.  We do need action.  Hope is not a plan, as they say.  I've long ago stopped looking for the perfect candidate and will settle for someone who cares about the country as a whole (I think Edwards genuinely cares about the lower middle class and the poor, like LBJ did, having come from there), has a sense of what our real problems are, shows good judgment, and looks like he has the drive to win.  

When Edwards campaigned in California before the '04 primary he did seem level headed, honest (about his own prospects) and reasonable.  I'm backing him for the moment with an open mind, since there isn't anyone better in the race yet.  If he'd agree to make Al Gore head of the EPA or create a special cabinet-level position for environmental issues, it would seal the deal, since I'm becoming convinced that Gore won't jump in unless it looks like there's no alternative to Hillary.  I'd be happy with Edwards/Obama.


by Mimikatz on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 04:35:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I agree, it's a CONTRAST. (none / 0)

I'd rather have Gore as Secretary of Energy. The most critical enviromental challenge facing us over the next decade is how to transition from a fossil fuel economy to an economy run on clean, sustainable energy. As such, energy policy is where the action is, so to speak.


by Gpack3 on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 06:06:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

who's first with hope? (none / 0)

"Keep hope alive" was Jesse Jackson's theme when I voted for him in the primaries in the 1980s. I wouldn't say Clinton, who was born in Hope, stole it from Jesse, but Jesse was there first.


by joyful alternative on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 07:05:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama (3.00 / 1)

It seems like this is an attack without merit. What exactly makes him think Edwards does not mean what he says?

Not an attack, just a recognition that John Edwards is a politician, and his persona felt decidedly different to me in NH a few days ago than during the 2004 campaign.  I'm sure that for those who follow Edwards closely it is more of an evolution, but to everyone else it will seem like a reinvention.  It's only natural for that, in turn, to engender a healthy skepticism.

Here's a shortened version of my logic: Candidates promise lots of things. Edwards stands a very good chance of becoming president.  Edwards is more openly progressive than before.  If he wins, and triangulates instead, the disillusionment of millions swept up in a progressive movement will dampen the movement and its voters and activists for the following election cycle.

I understand that for many, it will never be the same as it was when the Dean campaign naturally evolved.  As I said in my post on it in a different spot, the innovations of Dean in '04 will be the campaign necessities of '08.  That doesn't mean at all that Edwards and his "take action" themed campaign aren't sincere, only that by virtue of its less organic nature, it requires some scrutiny.  

I'll need to kick the tires some before signing on the dotted line (or perhaps it's simply the cranky NH primary voter in me).


Wonder if Sununu's fired now.
by Dean Barker on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 10:53:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Action . . . (3.00 / 2)

I finally signed up on this site because of this topic.  I loved these comments by Edwards, and for the time being he has my support.  I also don't think it is an attack on Obama, particularly.  But I do think it is an attack on a Democratic mindset that is too soft-focus and conflict-avoidant.  And that is what I love.

This will be a long campaign season, and I'm sure the candidates will grow and develop, and my views on them will change as I learn more.  But what I am sure I want is a candidate who cannot be rolled and won't go along to get along.  This was Clinton's fatal flaw in my view.  He was a pretty good president, but he wanted everyone to like him and he wanted to compromise and be reasonable.  This just encouraged the Republican to go for the throat.

My impression of Obama does tend to the soft-focus, let's all get along attitude.  It is all very admirable in normal times.  But right now I want someone who knows exactly what he wants to do as president and is telling us upfront.  I want someone who will react to media bullying (and right wing bullying) by getting tougher and more determined.

Gore can do this (if he decides to run).  I think Clark might be able to.  I think Edwards is showing he can.

The rest haven't given me confidence along these lines.  Hillary certainly does know the right wing attack machine and if she runs she is fully prepared for it.  But I don't know what she stands for.  I don't know what she wants to do as president.  Obama may have it in him but I haven't seen any proof yet.  He seems too conciliatory.  Biden et al.?  Meh.


by Emma Anne on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 11:21:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Action . . . (none / 0)

Several have made that exact argument, and its one I agree with. That I dont dislike Obama, but I don't trust the can't we all just get a long message because its not telling  us what he will do, whether he's tough enough to weather a general run or the Presidency, etc. As for Edwards I am more impressed w/ him now than in 2004. Then i was for Clark. I could really support any of the Democrats, but the issue is that I must believe they will fight in the general and won't be too terrified of missteps to govern. This is at core my critiques of both Obama and HRC


by bruh21 on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 10:49:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

give us a break (none / 0)

ANY DEMOCRAT will be preferable to ANY REPUBLICAN.  I'd vote for a Ben Nelson before Olympia Snowe, for instance.  I realize that even you, Matt, will most likely support the nominee whoever it is, but do we have to start forming up the primary-season circular firing squad already?  "Progressive enough"?  Had MyDD and the internets been a force in 2000, would we have had all this BS about Gore, as Nader chuckled on his way to helping this country down the terrible road it's been on?  Probably so.


by tangerine on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 03:00:47 PM EST

Re: give us a break (3.00 / 1)

Gore shoudln't have run a right-wing campaign.  The metaphor is not Gore/Nader.  It's Gore/Bradley.  And Bradley deserved a much closer look.  

If Gore had run anything approaching a decent campaign against Bush in 2000, Nader's 1% of the vote would have been irrelevant.  Instead he decided to not stay on message, flitter about inconsistently, and simultaneously try to triangulate and run at the base.  

Don't blame 2000 on Nader.  I'm so sick of that line of reasoning.  Blaming the voting machines makes more sense.  But really, Gore deserves a lot of the blame.


"You say the world has lost it's love I say embrace what it's made of" -Dar Williams
by Valatan on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 03:43:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Response (3.00 / 1)

Gore shoudln't have run a right-wing campaign.
What a crock.

----

Gore ran on a platform he believed in: modern progressive populism

Readers, please see my long response below. Thank you.


by NuevoLiberal on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 04:25:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Response (3.00 / 1)

Yes, the convention speech was one incarnation of Gore's campaign.  At that point in the campaign, I actually thought that he was going to actually be on message and win.  

But he did not push that message consistently.  He just didn't.  He tried to simultaneously push that message and to push continuity with the right wing Clinton legacy.  It never gelled, and he lost.  It's the fucking candidate's role to work the media.  Gore failed at that.  Kerry failed at that.


"You say the world has lost it's love I say embrace what it's made of" -Dar Williams
by Valatan on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 04:54:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

ASDF (none / 0)

But he did not push that message consistently.  He just didn't.

This is a lazy and false assertion. Prove with evidence otherwise.

He tried to simultaneously push that message and to push continuity with the right wing Clinton legacy.

To call Clinton's legacy "right wing" is another gross mischaracterization.

Gore ran on modern progressive populist paltform exactly as he spelled out in the convention speech. Period. Go read the debate transcripts.

It's the fucking candidate's role to work the media.  Gore failed at that.  Kerry failed at that.

There are two components to handling the media.

1. the candidate/campaign responding quickly and issuing a rebuttal/response
2. people, like us, holding the media accountable.

If you think about it, (1) alone is not always sufficient. If it were then groups like MediaMatters.Org would not be necessary. Right?

For every truth teller, these days, there are a few hundred liars and spinners in the political and media spheres. Tackling such massive collection of people that refuse to be honest and truthful is HARD job. Most importantly, the people also have a responsibility in reclaiming what is rightfully theirs, but has been subverted over the last few decades culminating in worst possible form in 2000: free and independent press.

At least by 2004, there was a semblance of a netroots movement to resist the garbage. None of this existed in 2000, to cover Gore's back.

Had Kerry grabbed a few mics within a day of the SBVT attacks and denied the charges, then went on to release a set of documents disproving all the claims by those liars, the netroots would have done everything they could to fight the bastards. Kerry didn't use this tool that was available to him (but not to Gore in 2000) to fight back. That's my assessment.

Media assault on media can be seen here:


by NuevoLiberal on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 05:05:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ASDF (3.00 / 1)

I vividly remember an April 2000 interview where the press asked a top gore staffer why young people should be connected with the Democratic party message.  The response began and ended with "keeping social security safe."  I vividly remember hearing a different al gore every single time he showed up on TV.  I'm home for the holidays and a little busy, but if you want me to go and look up a bunch of crap on Nexis when I get back to campus, I guess I will, since you seem to be living in a fantasyland where Al Gore ran one of the best campaigns in human history, yet still managed to only pull 49% of the vote.  

And Clinton was a pro-corporate and waffled repeatedly on gay rights.  He signed off on the Republican attacks on the SEC, and did nothing to stop the megamergers of the nineties.  His administration is more rightwing than any other democrat since probably Woodrow Wilson.  All the triangulation crap that we have today traces back to Clinton, and to the fact that he installed a bunch of his adherents atop the Democratic party apparatus.


"You say the world has lost it's love I say embrace what it's made of" -Dar Williams
by Valatan on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 07:16:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Wordplay (none / 0)

Al Gore ran one of the best campaigns in human history

No one said that. You're stuffing my mouth with ridiculous statements I never made. My opinion is that, he ran a decent enough campaign to win the popular vote and likely the election, after starting from double-digit deficits that plagued him all of 1999 and consistent deficits all the way up to the convention.

Yes, Clinton triangulated and does even more so these days (and, yes, I don't like their machine politics, which are now an burden on the party). But, that doesn't make him "right-wing" as you originally claimed. I think you're an intelligent person and I believe you realize the marked difference between these two statements

"push continuity with the right wing Clinton legacy." vs "more rightwing than any other democrat since probably Woodrow Wilson"

The second is a qualitative assessment that counts as an opinion (still debatable), the first is a grossly exaggerated trashing of Clinton.


by NuevoLiberal on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 09:26:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Wordplay (none / 0)

Al Gore ran one of the best campaigns in human history

No one said that. You're stuffing my mouth with ridiculous statements I never made. My opinion is that, he ran a decent enough campaign to win the popular vote and likely the election, after starting from double-digit deficits that plagued him all of 1999 and consistent deficits all the way up to the convention.

Yes, Clinton triangulated and does even more so these days (and, yes, I don't like their machine politics, which are now an burden on the party). But, that doesn't make him "right-wing" as you originally claimed. I think you're an intelligent person and I believe you realize the marked difference between these two statements

"push continuity with the right wing Clinton legacy." vs "more rightwing than any other democrat since probably Woodrow Wilson"

The second is a qualitative assessment that counts as an opinion (still debatable), the first is a grossly exaggerated trashing of Clinton.


by NuevoLiberal on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 09:26:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

My bad for the accidental double-post n/t (none / 0)


by NuevoLiberal on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 09:26:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: give us a break (3.00 / 3)

Gore gave the best absolute best nomination speech of anyone I have seen in my short life (26 years).

"The people vs. the powerful"

It got to the heart of the problems in this country. And the media and the DLC panned it. Funny though how Gore shot up in the polls after that speech.

Gore did not run a right-wing campaign. He ran a bunker campaign against a viscious enemy: the media.

They absolutely hated the man and with the help of the right-wing noise machine, transformed a progressive principled man into a wishy-washy fibber and exagerrator.

The Naderites were too dim-witted or myopic to see that there were HUGE differences between Gore and Bush. Hell all they had to do was look at the average age of the supreme court (and Bush's answer to who his favorite judge was) to see what voting for Nader would accomplish. But they got their death wish. And in return you could argue we have a stronger progressive movment and a stronger Democratic party. But I also have a dead cousin that was shipped back from Iraq after dying in Falluja.

Forgive me, but I think people that chose to vote for Nader deserve a little bit of the blame for the mess we're in.  


by adamterando on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 05:46:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Gore won (3.00 / 1)

More people voted for Al Gore than any other candidate in 2000. He also had enough support in enough states to win the electoral college. The reason he did not become president was because a faulty ballot took away thousands of his votes, and some corrupt election officials and judges abused their discretion to put their own man in power. So any discussion of why Al Gore is not the president should begin and end with election tampering.


by Gpack3 on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 06:14:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Gore won (3.00 / 1)

Yes.  49% of the vote coming off of a popular two term predecessor, a strong economy, and a lackluster Republican campaign is totally reasonable.  Let's just blame everything on a fringe candidate that pulled in 2% of the vote.

(I voted for gore, as the supreme court alone is way too important to screw around with, but the Nader-blaming crap is stupid.)


"You say the world has lost it's love I say embrace what it's made of" -Dar Williams
by Valatan on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 07:06:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Clinton won 43% in 92, and 49% in 96 (none / 0)

Clinton won 43% in 92, and 49% in 96 the second time as an incumbent coming off a strong economy, and a lackluster Republican.

Clinton would have had a few points over 50-53% had Perot not run, and likewise, Gore would have had 51% had Nader not run.

Perot helped Clinton (in 1992) by bashing Bush-I, Nader badly attacked Gore  in 2000 and helped Bush-II. Nader's impact in 2000 was severe in many ways, well beyond the 3% he got.


    NPR 2000 coverage

   Campaign Protests (14.4 | 28.8)
    Morning Edition, August 31, 2000
    NPR's Anthony Brooks reports from Seattle on the campaign trail, where protests and counterprotests by supporters of Democrat Al Gore and Green Party presidential candidate Ralph Nader are overshadowing Gore's efforts to emphasize his health care policy.

   All Things Considered, October 23, 2000
    Vice President Al Gore began his kitchen table tour today, having breakfast with a small business owner and her 14-month-old son in Portland, Oregon. Gore is in the Pacific Northwest to stress his stand on the environment and consumer issues. He's hoping to head off defections to the Green Party campaign of Ralph Nader. Polls show both Oregon and Washington close enough for Nader's vote to make Republican nominee George W. Bush the winner. Linda Wertheimer talks to NPR's Andy Bowers.

   All Things Considered, October 27, 2000
    NPR's Robert Siegel reports from Madison, Wisconsin on efforts by Al Gore and Ralph Nader to woo the same left-wing voters. Wisconsin has been solidly Democratic in the last three presidential races. But there, as in a handful of other states, the three-to-five-percent of the vote that polls show Nader may win could be enough to give George Bush a victory. Siegel talks to people in both the Gore and Nader camps, as well as Democratic voters who turned out to hear Al Gore yesterday and Nader supporters who turned out to protest Gore's appearance.

~~~~~

   THE 2000 CAMPAIGN: THE GREEN PARTY; Republican Ads Use Nader's Comments in Bid to Hurt Gore

   October 28, 2000, Saturday
    By MICHAEL COOPER WITH RICHARD PEREZ-PENA (NYT); National Desk
    Late Edition - Final, Section A, Page 13, Column 3, 826 words

   DISPLAYING FIRST 50 OF 826 WORDS -Hoping to siphon votes from Vice President Al Gore, Republicans in three closely contested states prepared to broadcast a television commercial featuring Ralph Nader, as the candidate himself campaigned here tonight and continued to aim his sharpest barbs at the Democratic ticket. Speaking to a capacity crowd at Iowa...

Recently, Nader met Gore and had nice things to say about Gore: When Nader met Gore. So, it appears that some Nader supporters are and will forever remain more defensive than even Nader himself.

And, no Clinton was NOT popular durung 1999-2000. It's a lie to say that he was. His and Gore approvals were both around 60%, but Clinton's personal favorables tanked BADLY after the scandal, only to recover by 2004.


    Wapo polls

     29. Do you have a favorable or unfavorable impression of Bill Clinton as a person?


                     Favorable   Unfavorable
          6/20/04        50        49    
          1/15/01        44        51    
          10/22/00  LV       33        60    
          10/21/00  LV       33        62    
          10/20/00  LV       32        63    
          10/1/00   RV       37        58    
          9/6/00      RV       35        62    
          8/20/00   RV       35        61    
          8/10/00   RV       34        62    
          1/26/00        34        61    
          12/15/99  RV       32        65    
          12/15/99       36        62    
          9/2/99           38        59    
          3/14/99        30        67    
          3/4/99           40        54    
          12/15/98       41        56    
          11/1/98   LV       37        60    
          11/1/98        42        54    

People realize Clinton was good at his job (Gore's job approvals were consistently around 60% throughout 93-2000 also), but they really disliked what he did in the oval office.

Jeez. I am tired on seeing the same lies over and over.

To Jerome, Chris and Co: my posts are long because rebutting lies is a hard job.


by NuevoLiberal on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 10:26:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

and didn't you (none / 0)

just say Clinton has a "right-wing legacy". How did you then turn around and make a case that it was supposed to help Gore somehow? If Clinton does have a "right-wing legacy" and he pissed 90% of Republicans off with his sexual antics, exactly how does that help Gore? Illogical and hypocritical.


by NuevoLiberal on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 10:39:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: give us a break (3.00 / 1)

hear, hear. It's a little nausea-inducing to have a cheering squad for one Dem (mildly) slapping another at this very, very early stage. Edwards would be great, Obama would be great, and Hillary could be great. We're lucky to have the crop we do at this point and I'd be happy to wait a long time to hear them smack each other around. Stoller is already on record, many times, for smacking around the Dem candidates, so there is little hope for him to get a grip. Apparently even keeping an open mind at this stage is too much to ask of him.


by lapis on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 04:15:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Who Cares (none / 0)

Edwards never had star power. If you saw it, you were alone. He was young and good looking with nice hair. But do you think he inspired anyone to vote. Doubtful.

And for most of the campaign he was MIA. The debate with Cheney, he was as ass kissing as Lieberman.

Now the netroots has fallen in love with him. Why? He is against the war and poverty. Wow. Way to take a stand.

The netroots love him because he buys ads on their sites. Half Kidding.

Now with Obama. Call it star power, I don't care. That is a bunch of media crap.

If Kennedy were alive today, they would say the same about him. And the netroots would say, see, he is just a poster boy. Three Quarters Kidding.

One day you, and I mean most, will actually watch Obama, and listen to what he says. And you will see a candidate that can actually get people excited about voting again. Even those that never did.

I'm sure most of you will continue the lies about him. But I was there, collecting signatures to get him on the ballot. When maybe 3% of those in Illinois knew his name.

And people, and yes, they knew him over the years of seeing him in action, but they couldn't wait to sign.

He won over voters talking about issues that people cared about.

The sooner the netroots gets that through their skulls, maybe they will actually back a winner. Instead of the Dean, Kucinich, Nader, Lamont losing streak they are on now.

And to the Edwards lovers. I think he is a great guy, and will be a good candidate. But he put America to sleep in 04. We have seen that play.

Gore, would love to see Gore run. I think he has grown up. And remember, Bill Clinton was an unknown, with so-called star power. Now I wish he did more, but compared to Bush. C'mon.


by rapallos on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 03:13:17 PM EST

Not for me, Obama does nothing. (3.00 / 3)

Sorry.


Check out the New Progressive Blog EENRBLOG
by dk2 on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 03:17:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Nothing for me either. (3.00 / 6)

   I think Edwards' rebuttal of Obama's "philosophy" is right on the mark.  I really like that Edwards is attacking McCain.  I do remember how Obama responded to McCain's personal attack right after Obama was first elected to the Senate - it was wimpy and nauseatingly deferential.  We need lots less deference in American politics.  


Jim Oberweis
by cilerder86 on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 03:25:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nothing for me either. (none / 0)

Obama was not running for office then. He was the junior most senator in the minority party. He was probably advised by Reid, Durbin and Byrd to hold his fire. We cannot know.

Who knows, it may end up being a brilliant political move if McCain and Obama are their party's nominees: Obama can have his campaign "leak" the history of what McCain said as a way of highlighting McCain's temper and undercutting the "straight talk" B.S. Obama took the high road.


Visit DebateScoop
by demondeac on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 05:25:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Sorry. (3.00 / 3)

   I don't really care who advised Obama.  His response was weak-willed.  Being weak-willed is not a brilliant political move.  The only way we can stop McCain is by attacking him directly.  Obama's unwillingness to deal in the politics of contrast really worries me.  We also don't need anymore deference in the Democratic party.  In today's politics, deference is equivalent to bending over.  The only person I see right now attacking the "straight-talk express" is Edwards.


Jim Oberweis
by cilerder86 on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 05:34:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorry. (none / 0)

Try to understand the context. The Senate. Backchannel memos. Nothing ANYBODY outside a few of us in the blogs and some other political insiders even knows about or hears about.

But right now, it's a political chip Obama can cash if and when he needs to. In fact, now that we have control of the senate and eithics is high on the agenda, Obama will likely have the last laugh.

The politics of contrast comes later, once the man is actually running for office.


Visit DebateScoop
by demondeac on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 05:58:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Backchannel memos... (3.00 / 2)

   Indeed no one knows about them but us, the hyper-informed.  But then it can't really be made a big issue; you seem to be making my point for me.  But I do know about the memo, and it makes me think that Obama can't stand up to those who are wrong but have power, and that Obama is too deferential.


Jim Oberweis
by cilerder86 on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 06:03:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorry. (none / 0)

Veiled criticism of McCain

The potential presidential hopeful also offered what appeared to be veiled criticism at possible White House rival Arizona Republican Sen. John McCain's call to send more troops to Iraq.

"While some have proposed escalating this war by adding thousands of more troops, there is little reason to believe that this will achieve [victory]," Obama said.

"It's not clear that these troop levels are sustainable for a significant period of time, and according to our commanders on the ground, adding American forces will only relieve the Iraqis from doing more on their own."

On Sunday, McCain said on ABC's "This Week" that the current U.S. forces in Iraq are are "fighting and dying for a failed policy" and said an increase in force levels are necessary to stabilize the security situation in the country.

By the way, Vilsack also went after McCain and featured his attack of the escalation plan on the second day of his (Vilsack's) campaign.


Visit DebateScoop
by demondeac on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 06:02:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Say it! (none / 0)

   Why didn't Obama just say: McCain's super-shitty plan which will result in the deaths of more Americans is super-shitty.  Ok, he couldn't say that, but why does Obama's criticism have to be "veiled?"  Say his name!  Is he afraid of confrontation or just ultra-polite?  I just don't understand him.


Jim Oberweis
by cilerder86 on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 06:05:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Say it! (none / 0)

Yea, he could have included McCain by name (although McCain was not the first nor the only to propose escalation).

Again, plenty of time remains. First, Obama has to decide to run. Then build the campaign machnery. Then an introductory stump speech. Then gradually (gotta save a lot of ammo to keep the media interested in every "new" thing you say) roll out policy positions. Then up the contrast. Then, after winning nomination, pivot to the general and work on contrast with the GOP candidate.


Visit DebateScoop
by demondeac on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 06:16:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I disagree. (none / 0)

   We should be attacking McCain yesterday!  Why do we have to start late - by then we will already have lost ground to the republicans.


Jim Oberweis
by cilerder86 on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 06:19:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I disagree. (3.00 / 1)

Bingo. It's because people are so afraid to make a mistep. You can not, unscore can not, as we have seen run an effective campaign against the GOP being afraid to take any risks. I believe Obama has time to change, but we don't have time to wait. If he is going to show he can deal with the attack dogs of the right, he needs to start showing it now.


by bruh21 on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 07:38:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Again, plenty of time remains. (none / 0)

This is what kills me about all this inter(or is it intra)-partisan stuff.  My candidate, my candidate is the greatest, yours expletive deleted.

The fact is that all of these candidates are human beings, and all are politicians.  No one's perfect.

Why is it that we're just waiting for Obama to show his promise, but it can't possibly by that Edwards has evolved over time?  Double standards, much?


by workingclassanna on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 04:20:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Again, plenty of time remains. (none / 0)

I'm with you all the way. You won't find me arguing that Edwards is insincere or has not evolved.

I have no idea why some work so hard to create and sustain negative talking points.


Visit DebateScoop
by demondeac on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 11:11:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Who Cares (3.00 / 4)

He is against the war and poverty.

  And you belittle this?  These two stances, alone, distinguish him in bold relief from EVERY Republican and from the entire DLC crowd. How many Democrats (never mind Republicans) make working-class issues a cornerstone of their political philosophy anymore?  

  And how has that pandering to Wall Street, and slavish support of Bush's foreign policy debacles, worked out for the Dems electorally? Remember 2002 and 2004? When the Democrats finally started differentiating themselves from Bush on the war, as they did in 2006, they started winning elections again.

 The Democratic Party's dismissal of economic issues since the late 1970's has been a HUGE factor in the decline in the party's fortunes over the years. If neither party is going to pay attention to the bread-and-butter issues that matter to the huge majority of working Americans, elections DO become contests to see who hates gays the most. Democrats tend not to win such contests.

  And I've seen this discussed very little -- but there's an enormous amount of value in John Edwards being a southerner. I agree with Tom Schaller that the South needs to be the Democrats' lowest priority in the short and medium terms, but having a progressive southerner at the top of the ticket provides outreach to the region without compromising the party's values in the process.

  I was a Dean guy in 2003. I'm an Edwards guy today. John Edwards seems to get it in ways Barack Obama doesn't quite, and Hillary Clinton doesn't at all.


by Master Jack on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 03:28:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Who Cares (3.00 / 2)

Equally importantly, he is pro-union. I heard him in an interview argue on behalf of labor's right to organize using the card check off. In a Q&A with the interviewer, he came down squarely on side of labor vis-a-vis management on this issue without mincing words.

This is a major stand for a presidential candidate at such an early stage, in my view, because the renaissance of unions is indispensable to protecting the economic well-being of working Americans in the 21st century, and the success of the progressive movement.

Taking an unequivocal stand on this issue is an indication of Edwards' continuing maturation as a progressive candidate, even if he is not espousing the use of the term at the moment.


Nancy Bordier is the founder of Citizens' Winning Hands (www.citizenswinninghands.net)
by Nancy Bordier on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 09:00:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Who Cares (3.00 / 2)

I said this before, but I'll say it again. The biggest applause lines I saw at Edwards events in Iowa and Chapel Hill (didn't catch the other three) were when he said we need more unions in this country. The Chapel Hill applause was especially heartening considering that North Carolina has the lowest or second lowest unionization rate in the country.

The untapped potential here is enormous.


by adamterando on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 01:12:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Huh? (3.00 / 2)

Edwards has no star power?
They guy came out of nowhere to within 4% of winning the nomination in Iowa and Oklahoma and Wisconsin.  Had Clark and/or Dean gotten out of the way in time, Edwards would have defeated Kerry, and probably would be President.

And he had so much star power that the popular will of the Party in 2004 was to have Kerry nominate him as VP.

But, please, is there any way you can back Obama without bashing other Democrats and the entire blogosphere (losing streak? have you been paying attention to Webb and Tester -- we just won the senate!).


Michigan For Edwards and Labor-Netroots for Edwards
by philgoblue on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 04:09:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Huh? (3.00 / 1)

But, please, is there any way you can back Obama without bashing other Democrats

Read his comments and I think you'll see that the answer is a definite "no."  His patron Saint Barrack can do no wrong and other candidates can do no right, especially Edwards.

He still hasn't answered the question of when St. Barrack is going to introduce legislation calling for a withdrawl of US troops and he still hasn't answered why St. Barrack votes to keep the war going every time a vote comes up.


The sharpest criticism often goes hand in hand with the deepest idealism and love of country. ~RFK
by Vox Populi on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 04:13:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Huh? (3.00 / 1)

Pot/Kettle.

I do not agree with the bashing of Edwards, but your comments about Obama are really no better.

What "legislation" do you think should have been introduced? When have votes come up that would stop the war?


Visit DebateScoop
by demondeac on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 05:32:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Huh? (3.00 / 1)

He's saying that Obama is against the war and has been from the beginning, but this isn't the truth.

If Obama were really interested in ending the occupation in Iraq he would introduce legislation calling for the troops to come home.  He would vote against the resolutions to fund the conflict if he were really opposed to the war.  That's what I'm saying, and yes, it does make sense.

How can you say "I'm against this war" but then vote for continued funding?


The sharpest criticism often goes hand in hand with the deepest idealism and love of country. ~RFK
by Vox Populi on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 06:19:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Huh? (3.00 / 1)

OK. I think I understand now, since the only way to force total withdrawal is to cut off funds. Kucinich is the only candidate with that position. Not Edwards, not Clark, nobody else.

I do not think, nor do most Democrats (I guess), that the Kucinich approach is the best.

One can logically have opposed the war from the start while believing that the withdrawal plan needs to be more cautious than Kucinich's. One can be against the war, truthfully, while disagreeing about the means of ending it.


Visit DebateScoop
by demondeac on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 09:23:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Who Cares (none / 0)

I so agree with you.
I have heard so many people in politics and all say that Obama is the most gifted intellegent person they have met in ages.
They don't say that about Edwards.  Why.  Because he is your run of mill smiling slick politican.
I hope Obama runs and I wish I could see them when they find he makes Edwards look the lighweight he is.  
by vwcat on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 11:49:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Who Cares (none / 0)

Or it could be that Obama is just slick enough to convince the more jaded among us that he genuine. What's that old saying "Sincerity is the most important thing in politics, if you can fake that, you've got it made."


by Gpack3 on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 02:04:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Kerry put Edwards in an undisclosed location in 04 (none / 0)

just watch the Chapel hill hardball tape of that..Tweety said straight up "did kerry have you on a short leash?".. Edwards didn't deny it..

kerry was worried about people thinking the ticket should have been flip flopped...

04 is Kerry and shrummy's fault not Edwards

need I say swiftboat?


Call it "Medicare Option" not public option
by TarHeel on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 01:37:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama (2.50 / 2)

I did not back Dean because, as has been mentioned, by the time my state's primary was held, Dean was already out of the running. I am a strong Edwards backer because I believe, first, in his positions and, second, I believe he's sincere.

Ultimately, the only way to know if someone is sincere, is to see what he has done and is doing to prove he's more than just "words." Edwards has taken numerous steps to put his proverbial "money" (his priorities, organizations and efforts) where his "mouth" is. Go ahead. Look at what he's been doing since the last election and tell me he isn't head and shoulders above the actions (not the rhetoric) of his competition. Progressive bona fides? YES! Trustworthy? I have to believe in "something," or I believe in "nothing." I believe in John Edwards and will be voting for him, enthusiastically!


by randron on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 03:14:10 PM EST

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama (none / 0)

Obama's life history shows sincerity, too. Community organizer after college, civil rights law after law school, etc.

Hillary Clinton and Tom Vilsack also have biographies that show commitment to service long before presidential ambitions were realistic for them.


Visit DebateScoop
by demondeac on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 05:36:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama (3.00 / 6)

I gave money to Dean twice in 2003, wrote letters to voters in Iowa and attended Meetups.

In 2007/2008, I plan on doing everything I can to get John Edwards nominated.  I'm setting up my ActBlue page next week and will start raising what I can from my friends and family.  My tax refund won't come fast enough to send a decent donation.


The sharpest criticism often goes hand in hand with the deepest idealism and love of country. ~RFK
by Vox Populi on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 03:21:19 PM EST

Don't see the Dean to Edwards connection (none / 0)

Politely interested in your view.

Dean had real governing creds and measurable accomplishments from years as Gov of Vermont. People have been mentioning Edwards' run in 2004 as a plus towards his run in 2008. Yes, he has experience as a  candidate. How does that help us judge his qualifications to govern as POTUS? Especially in this troubled time...

As a Dean Meetup host and maxed out contributor, I want to believe we have ourselves a new transformational candidate. But I don't.

However, Edwards' challenge to "Americans to take responsibility for our country" reminds me not so much of Dean's battle cry "You have the Power" but his frank statement that voting only got you a C. That's what got me off my ass and into activism. If Edwards gets as many newbies into the mix as Dean did, then yeah he may deserve our votes.


by candace in sonoma on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 05:47:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't see the Dean to Edwards connection (none / 0)

I think a lot of those newbies were brought into the mix in 2003 and 2004 and battle-tested in 2006.

Now it's a matter of searching for the message-bearer to further the movment. That's why Edwards's support is so strong.

The Dean campaign was a defensive campaign to stop the hordes from further advance. My hope is that the Edwards campaign is when we go on the offensive to further a progressive vision of creating a better world.


by adamterando on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 06:22:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama (3.00 / 6)

I was a fervent Dean support, giving my money and time (letter writing, calls, local organizing, and a lengthy stint in Iowa) and so far Edwards has my support, and in a BIG way.

Edwards seemed to shadow us in Iowa, and I had plenty of time to watch him at rallys and events, and on multiple occasions had the opportunity to talk to him for a reasonable amount of time.

The memory that stands out in my mind is when I went to an Edwards rally just to hear him talk, and I was decked out in Dean gear along w/ other Dean supporters.  Right after Edwards finished talking, he walked right over to us (in our Dean gear and all), with CSPAN cameras rolling no less, and just talked to us for about 10 minutes about how excited he was to see young (college students) energized about, and active in politics, and how we were setting an example for the rest of the country, just not youth, to follow.  

In Iowa I saw the beginnings of the Edwards we're seeing now, and he has my full support.


by midwestblue on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 03:29:25 PM EST

Great Iowa story. (3.00 / 1)

I was a big Dean supporter and still am.  I worked my butt off to convince my Central Committee to elect him as Chair. I went with Edwards after watching the town hall gatherings and after reading  his "Real Solutions". I think Dean and Edwards are the most alike; outsiders who are fighting for us.  A Doctor and a Lawyer. And both men who make you get off your butts and take action.  Great team.


Join the Feral Cats of Freedom Coughing Up Hairballs of Truth in the Montana Underbrush
by Feral Cat on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 04:51:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama (3.00 / 1)

I, too, was a Dean supporter in 2004.  I like Obama, and will vote for him if he gets the nomination, but I think Edwards this time is the real thing.  He is proposing the right policies, he has the right message, and he is extremely effective at framing the issues.  Framing, while in my mind being the least important aspect of a candidate, is the tool that gets a candidate elected.  The majority of voters, unfortunately, make decisions on sound bites or the "beer" test.  

I believe that Edwards is both effective and sincere, and will do everything I can to elect him.
Joe


Joe
by joetalarico on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 03:40:42 PM EST

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama (none / 0)

I am afraid that Edwards and Obama will split the anybody-but-Hillary vote ( count me as one of them ), and Hillary will waltz in through the split.

I think Obama will make it. He is the un_Bush.


by interguru on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 03:43:40 PM EST

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama (3.00 / 2)

Trippi noted on the earlier thread about Edwards's campaign that if Obama runs he will get enough of the black vote (if not nearly all of it) to topple Clinton, opening the door for Edwards or another non-Clinton/non-Obama candidate.

If Obama does not run, Clinton has enough of the black vote to be a big favorte once you add the others who would vote for her.

Edwards, ironically (given that most of the fighting on these blogs is Edwards vs. Obama), might need Obama to do well and to be viable late in the process.


Visit DebateScoop
by demondeac on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 05:42:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Help Me in My Ignorance (none / 0)

I am sure Trippi is right but I don't understand why the Clintons are so attractive to African Americans.  Can anyone please explain that to me?


by Hellmut on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 08:20:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Help Me in My Ignorance (none / 0)

On October 1, 2001 Bill Clinton was honored as the nation's "First Black President" by the Congressional Black Caucus.  Clinton "took so many initiatives he made us think we had elected the first black president" Rep Eddie Bernice Johnson said -- Chair of the Black Caucus.

"I am happy in Harlem and I am honored to be thought of as the first black president"  Clinton said.

I used to have a minor heart attack every time Howard Dean would start one of his speeches with "If Bill Clinton can be America's first black president -- then I want to be America's first gay president"

The man took years off my life :-)


by JoeTrippi on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 08:32:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Help Me in My Ignorance (none / 0)

google "first black president" and "why blacks love Bill Clinton"


by JoeTrippi on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 08:40:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Help Me in My Ignorance (none / 0)

Thanks, Trippi!


by Hellmut on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 08:44:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama takes black vote from Hillary (none / 0)

don't ask me why (Edwards' guy in SC is african american) but hillary will get the black vote for being the spouse of Bubba..

In states like Iowa and NH where there are no african americans obama will take from both - probably the frontrunner mostly.. whoever that is on a state by state basis.


Call it "Medicare Option" not public option
by TarHeel on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 01:41:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Is that necessarily true? (none / 0)

I don't see Hillary getting the love that Bill gets.  So I'm not sure that it's transferrable.


by workingclassanna on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 04:41:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Back at ya (none / 0)

While far from 'brilliant,' this is some framing you've got here. So, basically, if we were a 'Deaniac' we may have been vulnerable to the themes of Edwards campaign in 04 and currently as he launches his presidential campaign. You are attempting to frame us as simpletons who support(ed) a democratic candidate just because of his appearance. And, we can barely make it out of our houses to vote due to all the crap we've been sold by the HSN! Gimme a break.

Not playing into your frame.


by nite swimming on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 03:44:11 PM EST

I'm an Iowan who was for Edwards in 2004 but my... (3.00 / 3)

...wife, mom and dad all caucused for Dean. My wife is tentatively for Obama this time (I'm carefully working on her though -- bought her Elizabeth Edwards' book for X-mas ;)) and my parents are both for Edwards.

If you followed Edwards closely last time, you might hear a subtle difference now. I've noticed what I would describe as a little bit more "steel" in his voice.


John Edwards 2008
by MeanBoneII on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 03:54:20 PM EST

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama (none / 0)

I will be following this Edwards character more closely. ;-)


by covenant on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 04:13:36 PM EST

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama (3.00 / 1)

I like it better when Edwards slashes at McCain :)

I've been a JRE supporter since '03 when he was THE risin'rock'n'rolling star of the Dems.  I don't see that kind of depth in Obama...and he has more political experience, counting his years in the state legislature.

I love when I see Joe Trippi come here and discuss transactional and transformational, I think Edwards has always been transformational, but was just mishandled by the Kerry campaign.

My favorite part about John?  His ability to say "I don't know".

I love Obama, but give me time to heal from the Harold Ford, Jr campaign...that is...he lost it over a "white girl winking".  Our country may not be ready, afterall. (BTW, I heard Casey's racist campaign manager has been hired by McCain?)  


by catchawave on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 04:18:05 PM EST

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama (none / 0)

If we Dems are intimidated from nominating any particular candidate because of potential Repug negative ads then shame on us.


by Sam I Am on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 05:24:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama (none / 0)

I agree with that.  I am still angry about Harold Ford.  When the Republicans start picking on Hillary, Obama, or anyone else, I will give another $100 even if it means walking for the rest of the month.

I like both Edwards and Obama.  They both give me hope.  I just don't understand what Obama is hoping for.  

Given his biography, I am sure that Obama is the real deal.  Nonetheless, Dems need a strong message.  Right now, Edwards has a complete message and Obama does not.

By that I mean that he has not explained to me why he wants to be president and how that would be relevant to the American people.


by Hellmut on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 08:25:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama (none / 0)

Supported Clark in '03/'04, and lean towards Obama now.


by jrb1968 on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 04:20:22 PM EST

Same here. (none / 0)


by Sam I Am on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 05:16:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Where is Clark in the poll? (none / 0)

Clark could be ahead in the poll if he is on it?


by jasmine on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 04:20:30 PM EST

Re: Where is Clark in the poll? (3.00 / 1)

i voted 'other' in the poll because clark is my first choice. he's a progressive candidate with years of international experience, both diplomatic and military. i think that's very important right now. not because of electability but because we truly need someone with his kind of experience considering the challenges we face. add to that-- he's a brilliant man with integrity.

if wes clark doesn't run i would have no trouble supporting edwards. if edwards is the nominee i will work to get him elected. if either obama or hillary clinton is the party's nominee, i'd vote for them in the general election but that's all i'd do.


by irene adler on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 07:49:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Long response to Valatan (none / 0)

above.

Gore shoudln't have run a right-wing campaign.
What a crock.

----

Gore ran on a platform he believed in: modern progressive populism


Gore's Convention speech

For almost eight years now, I've been the partner of a leader who moved us out of the valley of recession and into the longest period of prosperity in American history. I say to you tonight, millions of Americans will live better lives for a long time to come because of the job that's been done by President Bill Clinton.

...

Instead of the biggest deficits in history, we now have the biggest surpluses, the highest home ownership ever, the lowest inflation in a generation, and instead of losing jobs, we now have 22 million good new jobs, higher family incomes.

...

Tonight I ask for your support on the basis of the better, fairer, more prosperous America we can build together.

...

Together, let's make sure that our prosperity enriches not just the few, but all working families. Let's invest in health care, education, a secure retirement and middle-class tax cuts.

...

But my focus is on working families, people trying to make house payments and car payments, working overtime to save for college and do right by their kids.

...

To all the families in America who have to struggle to afford the right education and the skyrocketing costs of prescription drugs, I want you to know this: I've taken on the powerful forces, and as president, I'll stand up to them and I'll stand up for you.

...

When they come in from playing on a hot summer afternoon, every child in America, anywhere in America ought to be able to turn on the faucet and get a glass of safe, clean drinking water

On the issue of the environment, I've never given up. I've never backed down and I never will.

And I say it again tonight: We must reverse the silent rising tide of global warming, and we can.

...

Others talked about welfare reform. We actually reformed welfare and set time limits. Instead of handouts, we gave people training to go from welfare to work. And we have cut the welfare rolls in half and moved millions into good jobs.

...

And if I'm you're president, I'm going to keep on having open meetings all over this country. I'm going to go out to you, the people, because I want to stay in touch with your hopes, with the quiet everyday heroism of working families.

...

It's just wrong for seniors to have to choose between food and medicine while the big drug companies run up record profits.

...

Education -- education may be a local responsibility, but I believe it also has to be our number-one national priority. We can't stop until every school in America is a good place to get a good education.

...

If you entrust me with the presidency, I will put our democracy back in your hands and get all the special interest money, all of it, out of our democracy by enacting campaign finance reform.

...

we will save and strengthen Social Security and Medicare, not only for this generation but for generations to come. At a time of almost unimaginable medical breakthroughs, we will fight for affordable health care for all, so patients end ordinary people are not left powerless and broke. We will move toward universal health coverage, step by step, starting with all children.

...

So we will double the federal investment in medical research. We will find new medicines and new cures not just for cancer but for everything from diabetes to HIV/AIDS.

...

And, let's give middle-class families help in paying for college with tax-free college savings, and by making most college tuition tax deductible.

...

I'll fight for tax cuts that go to the right people, to the working families who have the toughest time paying taxes and saving for the future.

...

We will balance the budget every year and dedicate the budget surplus first to saving Social Security. In the next four years, we will pay off all the national debt this nation accumulated in our first 200 years.

...

Hands off Medicare and Social Security trust fund money. I'll veto anything that spends it for anything other than Social Security and Medicare.

...

I will crack down on the marketing of tobacco to our children, no matter how hard the tobacco companies lobby and no matter how much they spend.

...

A new prescription drug benefit under Medicare for all our seniors, that's a family value. And let me tell you, I'll fight for it and the other side will not. They give in to the big drug companies. Their plan tells seniors to beg the HMOs and insurance companies for prescription drug coverage.

And that's the difference in this election. They're for the powerful. We're for the people.

...

Judge for yourself. Look at the agendas. Look at the facts.

...

I say to you tonight, if you entrust me with the presidency, I will fight for you. I mean that with all my heart.

...

To me, honor is not just a word, but an obligation. And you have my word: We will honor hard work by raising the minimum wage so that work always pays more than welfare.

We will honor families by expanding child care and after-school care, and family and medical leave

...

We will honor the ideal of equality by standing up for civil rights and defending affirmative action.

(APPLAUSE)

We will honor -- we will honor equal rights, and we will fight for an equal day's pay for an equal day's work.

(APPLAUSE)

And let there be no doubt. I will protect and defend a woman's right to choose. The last thing this country needs is a Supreme Court that overturns Roe v. Wade.

...

And hear me well: We will pass the Employment Non- Discrimination act.

...

Crime has fallen in every major category for seven years in a row.

...

And I'll fight to make every school in this nation drug free and gun free. I believe in the right of sportsmen and hunters and law-abiding citizens to own firearms. But I want mandatory background checks to keep guns away from criminals and mandatory child-safety locks to protect our children.

...

Now I want to lead America because I love America. I will keep America's defenses strong. I will make sure our armed forces continue to be the best equipped, best trained and best led in the entire world.

...

But I say to you: It must be fair trade. We must get standards, we must set standards to end child labor to prevent the exploitation of workers, and the poisoning of the environment.

...

I say to you tonight, we've got to win this election because every hard-working American family deserves to open the door to their dream.

...

Sometimes you have to choose to do what's difficult or unpopular. Sometimes you have to be willing to spend your popularity in order to pick the hard right over the easy wrong.

...

If you entrust me with the presidency, I know I won't always be the most exciting politician. But I pledge to you tonight, I will work for you every day, and I will never let you down.

...

In this City of Angels, we can summon the better angels of our nature. Do not rest where we are or retreat, do all we can to make America all it can become.

Thank you. God bless you. God bless America.

Here is a Gore'2000 ad on golbal warming and the environment.

Video: Gore'2000 Ad

On the Environment
and Global Warming

~~~~~~~~~

Here is the brief synopsis on the 2000 election:


On the 2000 election
Clinton got impeached (he shouldn't have been, but he was reckless in the first place; and, Gore stood in support of Clinton on the day of impeachment. Let us remember, albeit painfully, that Clinton also got caught lying to the American public in broad daylight, wagging his finger furiously), made Gore pay the price with double-digit deficits, media screwed democracy over, Nader mischaracterized Gore relentlessly and allowed himself to be used as a GOP-pawn and forced Gore to write-off south in the final weeks.

Still Gore won the popular vote, and won Florida, fought for 35 days to get all the votes counted, withdrew in disagreement when no recourse was left following the supreme court verdict and the DNC chairman called on him to concede, and nearly 80% of Americans wanted Gore to concede should the Supreme Court rule against him.


by NuevoLiberal on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 04:23:48 PM EST

Somehow I guessed... (3.00 / 1)

...that YOU posted this about three minutes before I finished scrolling to the bottom 8^)


John Edwards 2008
by MeanBoneII on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 05:10:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

good job guessing :) (none / 0)


by NuevoLiberal on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 05:26:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Writing off the south (3.00 / 1)

Gore was the victom of a major hatchet job from the media (see Eric Alterman's book, "What Liberal Media" for the details).  In particular, the NY TImes assertion that Gore lied when he said that Bush's tax cuts would benefit the rich was incredible, ill-informed, and biased.

If Nader forced Gore to give up the entire south except for Florida it was a costly blow. It's a lot harder to win if Democrats write off the entire south.  The only Democrat to be elected President without winning a majority of southern states since 1824 was Bill Clinton and Clinton won 6 of the 13 in both 1992 and 1996.  

Obviously, if Gore won any southern state in 2000 (or was counted as doing so), he was elected.

Which candidate, Edwards, Obama, or Hillary Clinton, has the best chance of competing in the South?  


by David Kowalski on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 06:33:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Writing off the south (2.00 / 1)

Which candidate, Edwards, Obama, or Hillary Clinton, has the best chance of competing in the South?

Among these, I think Obama will have the best chance to compete in the south (with his "Call for Renewal" line of approach to religious voters). I base this also on the fact that on 2004 election day, Edwards' favorables were quite weak 48% unfavorable and 51% favorable in North Carolina.


by NuevoLiberal on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 06:42:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Sadly as a Southernor (3.00 / 1)

I disagree about Obama being stronger there. Older voters vote more than younger voters. Among older white voters, Obama...

The Southern African American vote will not be sufficient in the general election to carry Obama to victory. Some of my African American acquaintances (the ones in their 40' and 50's) are the most pessimestic about Obama's chances.  


"Once in a while you get shown the light In the strangest of places if you look at it right"
by molly bloom on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 08:02:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Writing off the south (none / 0)

Edwards can't really be faulted for the loss of North Carolina in '04. But the fact that the state was lost big made me question what Edwards really brought to the ticket.


by jrb1968 on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 08:19:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Writing off the south (3.00 / 1)

Vice Presidents aren't just selected so they can carry their own home state. Look at 2000. Both parties picked someone from a state they'd carry easily.

Obviously it's impossible to see know how Kerry would have done without Edwards on the ticket, but I believe his role was to help woo rural voters over. People talk about how he was MIA in '04, but that's because the campaign sent him to swing states to campaign under the national radar and get free media exposure in smaller markets. I don't know how you'd measure how well he accomplished that. But it's silly to write him off just because he didn't convince one of the most conservative states in the country to vote for Kerry.


by Gpack3 on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 02:14:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Writing off the south (none / 0)

Here is something to consider..., in '04 Kerry was top of the ticket. There is a STRONG military presence in N.C. there is also a strong feeling among many military people and people with any connection to the military that what Kerry did in the '70's is unforgivable. Also remember the swiftboat issue. I would think that would have a big impact in N.C.

I don't believe anyone could have carried N.C. for Kerry!!! Edwards is probably the reason Kerry got as much as he did there.

I don't have the same negative thoughts about Kerry but I do know from personal experience that is a widely held belief.


by del on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 03:46:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Writing off the south (none / 0)

I am tired of hearing that Gore was a "victim" of the media.  All Dem candidates are targets of the media.  A smart politician is careful not to become a victim.  


by marycontrary on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 01:05:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Edwards Question Good For Obama (3.00 / 2)

At this point, I don't see the point of the vitriol between some of the Edwards and Obama fringe.  The poll (at least so far) is catching something important:  Edwards and Obama are our best candidates so far, early as it is.

Edwards is asking the "Where's The Beef" question of the 2008 race.  Yes, talking about hope is a good thing.  But committing to action is better.

Somewhere along the line, most people will ask what Obama can do besides make inspirational speeches.  My sense is that he can do a lot more.  But his current tactic is to let people assume they agree with him, even absent evidence that he's willing to stand for anything with an edge.

If Edward's point gets Obama to react, so much the better.  It will make Obama a better candidate, and will improve his chances both to win the nomination and to beat whoever the wingnuts allow the GOP to put up against him.

Also, Edward's point is oblique enough that it won't tarnish Edwards should he get the nomination.

It's worth remembering that those of us who supported Dean ending up working for somebody else in the general.  So keep the nutty vitriol on hold.  We may even end up with Hilary in the end, and we'll need (and ought) to do what's necesary to get her elected in the end.  But in truth, Obama and Edwards are both in competition now for the netroots pie.  By all means support one or the other, or somebody else.  But remember, you're not working for the future nominee... you're working for whoever becomes the future nominee.


by Rob Thorne on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 04:27:01 PM EST

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama (3.00 / 1)

I voted Other (run Al, run), but of the people who've declared, I'm supporting Edwards.

I think Obama has been a dreadful Senator whose ambition is outstripping his experience (I have serious buyer's remorse at this point.).  Senator Clinton would be, I think a competent and very capable president, but I'm not enthused about her run.

Binden, Dodd ... snore.


by mlr701 on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 04:32:27 PM EST

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama (3.00 / 1)

I'm with you -- Gore gets my support if he runs. Otherwise, Edwards is currently my first choice, but I'm not committed to him yet.

It's going to be difficult this round. I fell in love with Dean and all he stood for in early 2003. I doubt I'll find that same excitement with any of the expected candidates.  That's why I hope Gore runs -- I'll be enthused in my support for him. The rest don't do it for me. As time goes on my support for Edwards may firm up or another candidate may sweet talk me into supporting them.

Of course, I wouldn't be unhappy if I sit out the primaries and just support the final candidate. It would be much better for my emotional health. I was devastated at what happened with Dean.  Can I go through that again?


by Erin in Flagstaff on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 06:55:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama (3.00 / 1)

You're me. Or, rather, I'm you. (And if I recall correctly, one of the people who helped me fall in love with Dean in 2003 was named 'Erin in Flagstaff' on BfA? You went to some rally? Posted pictures? Got a VIP pass or gave them away some such? Memory is hazy ...)

Anyway, I'd back gore 100%. Other than that, I think we actually have an embarrassment of, if not riches, at least wealth. Edwards, Clark, Obama, Biden--they'd all be fine with me. (Okay, not Biden. Or Clinton. But hell, I'd be pretty thrilled with Kerry, to tell the truth.)


by BingoL on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 10:07:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama (none / 0)

Oh my, I may be that person. Were you in Flagstaff? If so, was it when you saw Dean at the Dem party picnic?  I was on the team that organized that visit. I don't know how many fliers I handed out, but there were tons.  I posted that day about the visit at the DFA site.  Any chance that's how I helped fuel your love for Dean? ;-)

I was on such a high that day. I got to ride with Dean back to the airport.


by Erin in Flagstaff on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 10:32:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama (none / 0)

Like two comment threads passing in the night ...

Yep, definitely you. This is great; now I know who to blame for all the heartbreak! And I wasn't in Flagstaff, but remember a tremendously excited and articulate woman posting about Dean and her (well, your) words made an impact. Hell, apparently I still almost remember 'em.

What a lovely ripple effect, too. You words strengthened my Dean support, that support turned into a drive to see a Democratic victory, and that drive became a heap of donations last November.

Wait a minute. You owe me three thousand dollars.


by BingoL on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 10:45:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama (none / 0)

Thanks for letting me know that I made a difference. As for the 3000 bucks? Let me THANK YOU!  You made a difference!  Hey, take my thanks, 'cause that's all you're gonna get. I'm from the poorer wing of the Democratic Party. ;-)


by Erin in Flagstaff on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 11:02:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama (none / 0)

he has been a great senator for us and never showed ambition.  he has been very busy in the senate.  if he is your senator then I suggest you check on his record.
This is why I support him.  His record is outstanding and he's been great.  he was tutored by the great Paul Simon  and mentored in the senate by Durbin.
by vwcat on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 11:54:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Deaniac fervor (none / 0)

I doubt if I would have the same Deaniac fervor for the present candidates as 2004 maybe because......

The crisis has passed---like no urgency to take back our country from those evil doers destroying our Democracy and lying to us to get us into an expensive and useless war and the cowards who stay silent despite the crisis.

Thus if Dean ran now instead of 2004--I doubt it if the Deaniac fervor would have happened.

Gov Dean came at the right moment and was the right person then and still do now and I still think he would have been a great president more than those who are running for 2008.  But I dont think there would have been a Deanomania if he ran in 2008 instead of 2004.


by jasmine on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 04:41:20 PM EST

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama (none / 0)

""Identifying the problem and talking about hope is waiting for tomorrow."

Hmm...wasn't the Clinton's winning presidential campaign theme song "Don't Stop Thinking About Tomorrow" ;).

If the above was, in fact, Edwards attacking Obama, it kind of backfires for a couple reasons.

1. Edwards is being forced to talk about the election on Obama's terms.

2. Edwards is elevating Obama to the No. 1 contender position.


by BrionLutz on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 04:43:54 PM EST

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama (none / 0)

People attacked Dean when he was the No. 1 contender. It does serve a purpose at times.


by adamterando on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 06:02:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Where's Gore? (3.00 / 1)

My dream ticket is Gore/Obama. I voted for Obama because Gore wasn't an option. I know I'm not alone. Bump Biden and stick Gore in there.


I am The Etchasketchist!
by Jumbo on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 04:45:33 PM EST

Re: Where's Gore? (none / 0)

Since we're sharing dream tickets, mine is Edwards/Obama -- generationally, in terms of themes, telegenics and articulateness, Edwards/Obama would shoot anything that reps can put together out of the water, and it would set up Obama very nicely to take over after an eight year Edwards/Obama administration.


Vox Mia -- Adding My Voice to the Chorus
by bedobe on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 04:52:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Where's Gore? (none / 0)

...and it gives Obama some of the experience he's so badly lacking now.


by mlr701 on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 04:54:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Edwards doesn't have much (none / 0)

more experience than Obama. And that experience includes co-sponsoring the war resolution.


by NuevoLiberal on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 05:07:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards doesn't have much (none / 0)

The point, I think, is that after an 8 year Edwards/Obama administration any such "experience" charge would be null and void.  As for the Iraq issue, as far as you're concerned, does a vote (support) for the Iraq war resolution automatically disqualify a candidate from receiving your support?


Vox Mia -- Adding My Voice to the Chorus
by bedobe on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 05:14:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards doesn't have much (none / 0)

As for the Iraq issue, as far as you're concerned, does a vote (support) for the Iraq war resolution automatically disqualify a candidate from receiving your support?

No, it doesn't.

For the primary, it depends on who else is out there and what prospects (both real and projectable) that candidate has for winning all the way. Edwards did a lot more than merely voting for the war resolution.

If an invasion supporter gets the nomination, they will most likely only get my vote in the general election, and not much more. Trying to make apologies for their war was bad enough once in 2004.


by NuevoLiberal on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 05:24:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards doesn't have much (none / 0)

I understand your point and concern, regarding a candidate that's associated with the Iraq war.  Of course, in their defense, I'm sure that the Democratic candidates that supported and voted for the resolution would point out that the resolution did not, in fact, authorize Bush to go to war (this may be hair splitting, I understand, but it is something worth keeping in mind: the resolution did not give Bush the authority to pursue war... but this is an old debate).  As far as 2008 election, as committed and partisan progressives (and, I presume, Democrats) we owe it to ourselves and country to work hard (i.e., more than merely voting, that only gets one a "C," according to Dean) to advance progressivism, by any means necessary (including: hitting the pavement for a Dem candidate that may not represent us 100% exactly).


Vox Mia -- Adding My Voice to the Chorus
by bedobe on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 06:16:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards doesn't have much (none / 0)

I'm sure that the Democratic candidates that supported and voted for the resolution would point out that the resolution did not, in fact, authorize Bush to go to war (this may be hair splitting, I understand, but it is something worth keeping in mind: the resolution did not give Bush the authority to pursue war... but this is an old debate)

There is no hair-splitting. Not even close. The War Resolution was a blank check for Bush to wage the war.


Text of the Iraq War Resolution
SEC. 3. AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES.

     (a) AUTHORIZATION- The President is authorized to use the Armed Forces of the United States as he determines to be necessary and appropriate in order to--

           (1) defend the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq; and

           (2) enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq.

     (b) PRESIDENTIAL DETERMINATION- In connection with the exercise of the authority granted in subsection (a) to use force the President shall, prior to such exercise or as soon thereafter as may be feasible, but no later than 48 hours after exercising such authority, make available to the Speaker of the House of Representatives and the President pro tempore of the Senate his determination that--

           (1) reliance by the United States on further diplomatic or other peaceful means alone either (A) will not adequately protect the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq or (B) is not likely to lead to enforcement of all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq; and

           (2) acting pursuant to this joint resolution is consistent with the United States and other countries continuing to take the necessary actions against international terrorist and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations, or persons who planned, authorized, committed or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001.


There simply is no debate that this was not a blanker authorization for war.

hitting the pavement for a Dem candidate that may not represent us 100% exactly

That dependes on if the candidate is 20% or 50% on the scale of being desirable, trustworthy, and inspirational.


by NuevoLiberal on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 06:33:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards doesn't have much (none / 0)

Um, sure there's a debate. That makes pretty clear that first the President needs to determine that further diplomatic and peaceful means are exhausted.

I expect your point is that it should've read that Congress, say, would make that determination. Still, I'm not sure that expecting the President (at that point, before the Full Horror of Bushco was completely known) to fulfill the clear-yet-not-legally-binding requirement of exhausting diplomatic and other peaceful measures really comprises a 'blanket authorization for war.'

For lo, in the days of yore before the swamps became deserts and the deserts became condominiums, there was a time when governance was More Competent and Sometimes Intelligent and even Occassionally Respectful of Other Branches. And I scoff even as I'm writing this, but I'm pretty sure I remember back when the Congress saying, 'Hey, before you actually invade another country, dude, you oughtta, like, see if you can't diplomaticize your way to a resolution first,' might've counted for something less than blanket authorization. But maybe that's just me.


by BingoL on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 10:23:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Sometimes we forget... (3.00 / 1)

  That a supermajority of Americans also supported the Iraq War at least until the WMD lie became obvious.  This included me.  I think a lot of Americans, even Democrats, can identify with Edwards change in opinion on the war.  I wish he hadn't cosponsired the resolution, but I don't think that it is a very big handicap to electoral success.


Jim Oberweis
by cilerder86 on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 05:27:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You were not on the Senate Intelligence Committee (none / 0)

And Edwards was on it.

There was all sorts of indication of manipulation of evidence in the 90 page NIE report that the cmte members had access to. Instead of calling Bush admin on their lies, Edwards co-opted their lies.

See Bob Graham's OpEd: What I Knew Before the Invasion, By Bob Graham, Sunday, November 20, 2005


by NuevoLiberal on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 05:50:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It's worrisome. (none / 0)

   But a lot of Democrats did too (doesn't make it right).  Obama didn't have a public position in 2003, so we can't know what he would have done.


Jim Oberweis
by cilerder86 on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 05:56:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's worrisome. (3.00 / 1)

Obama had a public position in October 2002.

Read what he said to 2000+ at an anti-war rally in Chicago.


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by demondeac on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 06:08:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's worrisome. (none / 0)

That's a great speech.

Do you know why he voted against the Kerry Amendment last June, to redeploy troops out of Iraq by July 2007? (The 'just keep a minimal number plus 'over-the-horizon' troops thing?)


by BingoL on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 10:34:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's worrisome. (3.00 / 1)

You can find his reasoning in the Congressional Record (sorry, do not have them at my fingertips).  He supported the Levin version instead. Both of these resolutions were toothless expressions of congress's desire to change course and begin withdrawal.

The Levin amendment was less absolutist on the one hand, but more detailed on the other.

Specualtion:

  1. He supported the one that would pass (it got more than 70 votes in the Senate). He is a pragmatist.
  2. He thought the Kerry plan was too rigid.


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by demondeac on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 11:48:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Edwards' event in Reno (none / 0)

Here's a write up from someone who attended the Edwards rally in Reno, NV:

http://bayneofblog.blogspot.com/


by nite swimming on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 05:26:57 PM EST

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama (3.00 / 2)

Matt --  It is a mistake for Edwards to attack Obama overtly, or covertly.  At this point Obama is the least of Edwards' problems -- Edwards needs Obama in the race.


by JoeTrippi on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 05:42:18 PM EST

How about a triple bankshot? (none / 0)

Perhaps Edwards is smart enough to attack Obama in order to RAISE him up to front-runner status? Like you said, the higher Obama goes, the lower Hillary may go in terms of black support.

If Edwards legitimizes Obama, it opens up a larger door for Edwards to sneak through.

But as it is, it's still VERY VERY early. Nobody is paying attention to Edwards words except us and the DC elite. Actually, the DC elite are busy crying over the death of a 93 year old nice man so even they aren't paying attention.

One thing that Edwards does have at this point that Dean did not, was a modicum of African-American and southern support. If he can solidify that at some point (say by pointing out that it's time to stop hoping for change and it's time to start acting?) then I think the nomination is his to lose. Like I said, the southern primaries are going to be one helluva fight.


by adamterando on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 06:09:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How about a triple bankshot? (none / 0)

Obama has not entered the race yet.  If this was a calculated attack by Edwards then it is the first stupid thing I have seen Edwards do this cycle.  

The other thing to remember is that Edwards is first in Iowa right now -- and the toughest thing in American politics is sustaining a lead in Iowa -- the longer you have to sustain it the tougher it is to do.  Hillary and the field is Edwards' problem not Obama.


by JoeTrippi on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 06:34:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How about a triple bankshot? (none / 0)

So how does one maintain a lead in Iowa?

Do you think an attack (if it was an attack, I don't know obviously) on Obama hurts Edwards because it takes the focus off Edwards or because it does nothing to bring down Hillary (who also has not declared yet)?

I mean if it was an attack, I don't see how it was really such a bad thing considering nobody is paying attention right now except us hyper-informed people. And from the quotes Matt pulled, the effect of the "attack" seemed to be that it put Edwards in a more positive light and Obama in a more negative light for the hyp-informed activist base. Am I reading this wrong?


by adamterando on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 06:56:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How about a triple bankshot? (none / 0)

First since no one is paying attention right now lets look at the one person who probably noticed what was said......Senator Obama.

If Edwards continues this line and it turns out Obama doesn't run -- all Edwards did was drive Obama away from him.

Assuming Obama is in the biggest mistake you can make in a multicandidate race is to get into a fight with another candidate.  In almost every case both candidates suffer and the other candidates gain.  Edwards should have learned this when he and Kerry benefited from the Gephardt/Dean fight in Iowa.


by JoeTrippi on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 07:13:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How about a triple bankshot? (none / 0)

Thanks for the insight.

Now I guess we'll see if Edwards continues this line of "attack".


by adamterando on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 07:44:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How about a triple bankshot? (none / 0)

I'm curious about the Edwards support in South Carolina and North Carolina. I was at the rally in NC yesterday. My best estimate (and I had hours to look around and count) was that about 1% of the crowd was black. Probably because of the location in Chapel Hill, but his campaign did obviously did nothing to reach out to blacks for that rally.

The black vote in Democratic primaries down here is HUGE. Our party regulars, volunteers, and officials are about 50% black. The rally yesterday was literally the whitest political event I have ever attended in this state (I have not been to GOP events). Wealthy, too.


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by demondeac on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 06:35:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How about a triple bankshot? (none / 0)

I noticed that as well. Definately the location (southern village). You couldn't get farther away from Durham really if you were in China.

But once again, it's very early (as Trippi pointed out, Obama hasn't even declared yet).

I don't know what the Columbia rally looked like. Was it different?


by adamterando on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 06:52:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How about a triple bankshot? (3.00 / 1)

In 1988 Jesse Jackson (with almost no money and no organization) won eleven states during the Democratic Primaries.   He won Michigan and 5 states on Super Tuesday.   He was beating Dukakis, Al Gore and Dick Gephardt.   Howard Dean, Wes Clark, and John Edwards did not win eleven primaries combined in 2004.   The biggest single event that put Bill Clinton on his way to the White House in 1992 was Jesse Jackson's decision not to run for president after he ran in 1984 and 1988.


by JoeTrippi on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 07:21:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How about a triple bankshot? (none / 0)

Oh and I can't prove it but Jesse received almost no white votes in 1988 as he won those 11 states.   Obama's appeal is going to be much broader.

Why people feel such a need to discount any candidacy this early in the cycle is beyond me.


by JoeTrippi on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 07:33:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How about a triple bankshot? (none / 0)

Did Jesse come in third in Iowa in '88? I can't remember. I do remember he really spoke to farmers' concern then about the farm crisis ravaging the state. Iowa ended up going for Dukaksis that year when the rest of the midwest went for Bush.

I think the reason many of us youngins are prematurely discounting candidancies (I know I'm guilty of this too) is because we came of age politically in either 1996, 2000, 2002, or some even in 2004. We have not experienced long drawn out primaries where the winner is not all but assured after March 1. So your point is well taken. But since the media cycle has accelerated so much in the last 10 years and the primary schedule has been front-loaded so much, it seems much harder for dark-horse candidates to break out DURING the primary season. Now it seems more likely that darkhorse candidates emerge BEFORE the primaries even begin (i.e. Howard Dean). So we have not seen a Jerry Brown or a Jesse Jackson or a Ted Kennedy that consistently competes with the front-runner past the first four primaries.

I realize this is different though since the field is wide wide open on both sides. So we all need to remind ourselves to take a step back and look at everyone.  


by adamterando on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 07:52:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How about a triple bankshot? (none / 0)

Man I should know this -- Gephardt won Iowa that year -- we campaign from last place to edge out Senator Paul Simon.   Dukakis took third and made a big deal about winning the Bronz and the press bought it!

The Press will do everything they can to make it a two candidate race as soon as possible.  But in 1984 and 1988 (both years Jesse Jackson ran) they narrowed the field to two candiates and Jackson.


by JoeTrippi on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 08:01:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How about a triple bankshot? (none / 0)

Rarely is there a time when I can stand the Press.

Did you see the headling on the Washpost.com politics page (I guess it's on page A01 of the print edition as well):

"Clinton-Obama Differences Clear in Senate Votes"

They're already trying to make it a two person race between two people that haven't even declared yet!

Is there any parallel like this in any previous presidential election over the last 30 years?


by adamterando on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 12:33:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How about a triple bankshot? (none / 0)

Oh, Joe, that's not true. I voted for Jesse, and so did about 10% in my blue-collar white ethnic precinct. My white friends in affluent suburbs were also his fans, which surprised me at the time.

And I remember seeing on C-SPAN a crowd of white supporters on an Iowa farm. Those were the Rainbow Coalition days, and Jesse was an outspoken supporter of farmers and also of poor people left behind in Appalachia.


by joyful alternative on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 10:24:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How about a triple bankshot? (3.00 / 1)

I did not mean it literally -- he obviously got some white votes -- I meant that he won 11 states and I would expect Obama to do at least as well and more likely could gain broader support than Jackson did.

My point is 1. Do not underestimate the importance of the African American vote in the Democratic Primaries.

2.  Do not underestimate Obama's ability to win significantly more states than Dean, Edwards, and Clark combined did in 2004


by JoeTrippi on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 10:44:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama could negate Hillary (none / 0)

It's an open secret Hillary gets blind support from many black women. I asked them how they felt about the war, but they don't seem to realize how bad Hillary has been with respect to the middle east. The extent to which she copped out of the debate to me is worse than the fact that she took a wrong position. If she is unable to be one of the leaders on this crucial issue, she is unfit to lead.  In Atlanta, I have talked to some black women who pretty much say they will support Hillary. And to a lot of them, Obama seems like a good alternative.  She also gets a lot of support from quite a few Democrats regardless of race who liked Clinton and do not follow politics on the internet, but just watch the Sunday talk shows. I think these demographics are more likely to change their vote to Obama.

THis is just  non professional guess from me and is based very much on anecodotal information and personal interactions.

So I would target Hillary more. And while I would like Obama to stay in the race to minimize the Hillary effect, I see nothing wrong with a few indirect jabs at Obama.

At this point, I will settle for Obama or Edwards as long as Hillary doesn't make it. FWIW,  I prefer Wes Clark or Gore by a big margin over the others. I am stunned by the indifference of many to Wes Clark despite his engaging presence on many news talk shows.


by Pravin on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 06:19:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama (1.00 / 1)

The whole distinction he makes between hope and action is nonsense. Besides, ask anyone who the most helpful Democrat was in the last election cycle and they will answer it was Obama. He traveled the country for everyone and helped get democrats nominated. That sounds like action to me.

Of all the candidates, I am most underwhelmed by Edwards. The guy added nothing to Kerry's ticket (didn't carry or even make competitive his own state), looked like a child in his debate versus Cheney and is clearly changing who he is to pander to the left of the democratic party.  I have followed Edwards for a while- he is not the same person as the guy North Carolina elected in '98. In fact, he wouldn't have even held his senate seat in '04 if he ran for it.


by mhoffa1382 on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 05:49:18 PM EST

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama (none / 0)

"...is clearly changing who he is to pander to the left of the democratic party."

Well I'm glad it's so clear to you. How did you get this exclusive interview with the man's inner thoughts?


by adamterando on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 06:11:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama (none / 0)

No exclusive interviews- just a comparison of who he was when he ran for a senate seat in North Carolina and who he is today.


by mhoffa1382 on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 06:49:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama (none / 0)

But the evidence does not warrant drawing the conclusion that Edwards is pandering.

RFK got much more liberal as time went on. It is possible to genuinely reflect on things and to change your focus and the views you concentrate on isn't it?


by adamterando on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 06:57:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama (none / 0)

The difference is that for Edwards, I can't help but believe that it is political expedience driving his change. Look it- in North Carolina the guy runs as a  conservative demcorat. He runs for the democratic nomination in '04 as a moderate. Then, with that spot filled by Hillary in '08, he jumps ship and becomes a progressive.

I am not saying I won't vote for the guy if he gets the nomination,  I am just not sure what he brings to the table over other progressive candidates like Obama or even Bill Richardson. He changes his colors  where expedient and at the end of the day, isn't all that electable. Remember, this is a guy who did not and will not carry his own state.


by mhoffa1382 on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 08:36:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama (3.00 / 1)

Well your description could also be seen as him gradually becoming more progressive over the last decade. Just like RFK did.

Also, don't count out North Carolina. The state is gradually getting bluer by the day. Unlike Georgia and South Carolina. Remember Heath Shuler did just win and Larry Kissell almost won. Not to mention that Dems added more seats to the state legislature even though Bill Black was under investigation.
The state Democratic party worked exceptionally hard at local organizing in 2006 and it paid off. Jerry Meek is an absolutely outstanding state party chair.

I think 2004 with the jingoistic patriotism was a high water mark for the GOP in the state (in federal elections anyway). If Edwards is leading the ticket, I think we could eek out a 50.1 victory in NC, especially with an unabashadly populist message. That would win back a lot of the displaced blue collar workers that vote Democratic in local elections but vote god guns and gays in federal elections.


by adamterando on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 01:27:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama (none / 0)

I don't care if he's pandering or if he sincerely believes what he's saying. The fact is, he's running as a progressive, and trying to convince the general public to vote for progressive ideas. If he wins with a platform of progressive change, he'll have to actually deliver on it to stay in office. He'll also have shown other candidates that a progressive message can win, so they'll get on the bandwagon too. This is how power works in a democracy. You make your ideas so popular within a constituency that even people who aren't true believers have to deliver on them just to keep and maintain power.


by Gpack3 on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 06:41:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama (none / 0)

I voted for Edwards. As per my recent diary, I won't be talking about supporting Gore anymore unless there's a real effort to actually draft him.

That being said, I'm open to change at this point. The only person I wouldn't support at any point for now is Hillary.


by PsiFighter37 on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 05:58:51 PM EST

Elizabeth Edwards better candidate than Hillary (3.00 / 3)

I didn't care for John Edwards in 2004. He didn't even win states like OH and PA which I felt should have been essential to what his base is. I found his rhetorical appeal puzzling in 2004. I thought he came off with a superficial slightly glassy eyed gaze at times and he seemed a little mushmouthed during debates.

But I have been impressed with the fact that he seems to have learned from his 2004 mistakes and is becoming less vague about more issues. He still has a tendency to speak lawyerese at some network interviews. And once again, I noticed ELIZABETH Edwards bail him out with an intelligent no nonsense non-shrill reply to the interviewer(this time, on Stepehenopolous's Sunday show). Every time I see her speak, she impresses me a lot more than HILLARY Clinton. I think she has a chance to be the best first lady since Eleanor Roosevelt and may serve as a check for any tendency of John Edwards to waffle the same way Eleanor worked to influence FDR on some progressive issues. THat is my gut feeling.


by Pravin on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 06:07:09 PM EST

Re: Elizabeth Edwards better candidate than Hillar (none / 0)

Ditto.


by adamterando on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 06:12:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Elizabeth Edwards better candidate (none / 0)

I'm totally an Elizabeth Edwards fan. I really like her....she appeals to me...she's got the smarts of a Hillary, but without the smugness, condescention and coldness.


by rikyrah on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 09:52:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama (3.00 / 1)

Citizen Stoller:

My first choice is Al Gore and I think that he is definitely runnin'...unless Edwards gets the kinda traction that coalesces all the anti-Clinton/DLC base.  Al Gore or Edwards would be DYnooooMITE!!  

Gore, in my opinion would be the strongest progressive candidate both on electability, politics and for the purposes of creating a national unity administration to crush the corporate oligarchy.  Experience in the Senate, 8 active years in the executive and he already has the commitment from a national base that has already voted for 'im.

Edwards may suffer from the Kate Hepburn syndrome, too beautiful to take seriously.  His lack of a record and limited national exposure (only 6 years in the Senate) make him easy to dismiss as just another pretty face.  I also worry about his bein' able to stand up to the DC beltway movers and shakers and I worry about whether he could attract the kind of cabinet and leadership team that Al Gore could. However, I think he is the smartest of ALL the Democrats runnin' and, with a solid legislative majority, could generate a "new" New Deal that we're gunna need after the last 26 years of transfers of wealth to the oligarchy.


by LiberalFlamethrower on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 06:41:26 PM EST

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama (none / 0)

P.S. To previous post

Senator Obama is destined to emerge as the "Black Joe Lieberman" when his financial sugar daddies, his personal history back on the block (ask Bobby Rush and the neighborhood activists on the South Side who aren't UofC grads) and his history of deal-makin' in the Illinois legislature gets some scrutiny.


by LiberalFlamethrower on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 06:49:08 PM EST

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama (none / 0)

Edwards is both strategically and tactically operating at peak performance. It's truly impressive to see what a political organization un-impaired by the DC conventional wisdom  can do.

Unfortunately, the caucuses are still more than 12 months away.


by bi66er on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 06:51:25 PM EST

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama (none / 0)

"People attacked Dean when he was the No. 1 contender."

But Obama is not even running and is No. 2 in the polls.

That Edwards is attacking him elevates Obama to No. 1 and it makes Edwards look like he's running scared.

In addition, many speculate that Edwards was forced to make his early announcement in New Orleans due to pressure from Obama's poll numbers.

Then Edwards punts his New Orleans announcement, raising questions about his vision and strategic sense.

So everything Edwards has done has elevated Obama.

Some attack.


by BrionLutz on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 06:54:35 PM EST

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama (3.00 / 2)

Quite a stretch. He punted? It's looked like a very positive week for him IMO. Got a lot of buzz, 41,000 people watched his streamed video from Iowa (or was it NH?), 1000's attended the rallies, on Sunday talk, CNN, Hardball, etc.

Nor has he really attacked Obama. The premise of this diary is that it is possible, just possible, to read the meta-message of the campaign as an attack on Obama's version of hope, but there may be nothing there at all.


Visit DebateScoop
by demondeac on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 09:38:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

To tell you the truth, I'm turned off (none / 0)

There's something about slashing and attacking other Democratic candidates this early in the presidential campaign season that turns me off.

John Edwards is not winning friends this way.


by rosebowl on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 07:17:25 PM EST

Re: To tell you the truth, I'm turned off (3.00 / 1)

If what Edwards has done (maybe subtly undermining Obama's rhetoric, maybe) is enough "slashing and attacking" to turn you off, you are not likely to have a candidate left to vote for 13 months from now.


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by demondeac on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 09:40:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To tell you the truth, I'm turned off (none / 0)

It's not so much the rhetoric. It's how early Edwards camp is setting his campaign style and tone. Nothing against Edwards, but I think he's on an early path to negative campaigning. The foucs should be on the Republican platform and their candidates, and not on Democrats.

The media loves party infighting and catfights particularly when its this early in the '08 cycle --- it sells stories. I'd rather the focus be on the GOP huge mess.


by rosebowl on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 10:14:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

don't believe everything you read on blogs (none / 0)

the "slash" was so subtle that none of the media outlets that actually print paper or go on TV noticed this at all... precisely why that hampshire post is interesting..  Edwards gave the same exact speech in 6 places and no one EXCEPT hamphire blog noticed it. Actually it is GREAT to have candidates who can draw contrasts without elevating their own negatives..

so if you believe this was a "slash" because Matt Stoller says so you are in need of help and will probably be voting for either Hillary or Obama because that is who the pressbots told us we can.


Call it "Medicare Option" not public option
by TarHeel on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 01:51:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Edwards is a showman (none / 0)

As a deaniac I have to say edwards was the consumate showman in 2004, and again in 08 and he's got about as much chance of winning as a snowball in hell.


.. and when I win the lottery, gonna donate half my money to the city so they have to name a school or a park after me - camper van beethoven
by heyAnita on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 08:53:29 PM EST

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama (3.00 / 1)

I think it's way too early to count anybody out of this race and it's crazy to start slinging any kind of mud.  The ones with no balls (Hillary excepted) will fold their tents early as did Sen. Bayh.  Several of the un-announced wannabees fall into this category.  We know that Edwards has the stamina for a tough campaign and I personally would like to see an Edwards/Obama ticket.  And remember Al Gore didn't carry his home state either.


by wally in red state jesusland indiana on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 09:54:02 PM EST

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama (3.00 / 2)

I was very active as a Dean supporter in 2003/2004 and I expect to be at least as active as an Edwards supporter in 2007/2008.  I was at the event up in New Hampshire that Mike and Dean wrote about.  I remember hearing Sen. Edwards talk about hope and action, and I didn't see it as a swipe at Sen. Obama at all.

My mother worships Sen. Obama.  Many of my friends are on board with the Draft Obama movement, and if Sen. Obama wins the primary I will very gladly work for him.

When I heard Sen. Edwards make his comments about action, I heard them in the context of what he's been saying all along.  Back during his Opportunity Rocks college tour, he was saying the same thing, and it was these sort of comments in October 2005 that really changed my mind about Sen. Edwards.

(Take a look at my blog post from then.)

When I heard Sen. Edwards speak about hope and action, I heard it in the context of other words he was saying in New Hampshire, and that he's been saying on his announcement tour.  2008 is still a long way away.  

Just working to get a strong Democrat elected, whether it be Edwards, Obama, or even Hillary isn't enough.  There are still too many people who have not had help getting their lives put back together on the gulf coast after Katrina and Rita.  We cannot ask them to wait another two years for help to get there.

Nor, can we afford to wait for two years to do something about global warming.  We need to start making changes now.

No, I do not believe that Sen. Edwards comments were an attack on Sen. Obama.  Instead, they were a call to action for all of us.  If Sen. Obama is going to be successful, I sure hope he, and his supporters make a similar call to action.  We will all be better off that way.


by aldon on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 09:55:46 PM EST

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama (none / 0)

I could never get rid of the feeling that there is something phoney about Edwards.  and as I read somewhere, he is one of those people who the more you see the less you like him.  
Case in point is his need to lift other peoples material.  Like the fact that he points out the cheney and rummy experience thing when asked about his lack of it.  That was lifted word for word from Obama
Fact is that many people have come away with acknowledging that Obama is perhaps the most gifted and intellegent politican in decades.
Edwards is just not that good.  He is show and no substance.  a true lightweight.
Many pros feel Obama is very formidable and very good.
by vwcat on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 10:20:56 PM EST

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama (none / 0)

I will support the Democratic nominee, but I'm not going to support a candidate in the primaries that can't support a progressive agenda on gay marriage.  And Edwards "isn't there yet," to paraphrase the charismatic candidate.

He will be better than any Republican, and if he's the nominee . . . I'll vote for him.  But if I have a choice in the spring and summer, I'm not going to vote against myself.


Queer Texan . . . definitely not a steer.
by Queer Texan on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 11:37:52 PM EST

Warmonger (none / 0)

John Edward voted for the war.  Barak Obama said before we went it was a huge mistake.  The netroots will be taken for a ride again.

Hey Johnny Boy, Can you read.  Try this, said long before you got in the race.  By, guess who.

Our economic dominance has always depended on individual initiative and belief in the free market, it has also depended on our sense of mutual regard for each other, the idea that everybody has a stake in the country, that we're all in it together and everybody's got a shot at opportunity.

So part of the fight is political - and part of the solution is to strengthen the right to organize across all industries and professions.

But it's not enough just to say "no" to Bush. They may not have helped, and they may have made things worse, but they did not cause globalization. And no matter what comes out of this convention, the labor movement must squarely confront the fact that the economy is changing. The old ways of doing business are not working, and we must have a strategy that meets these new challenges.

I won't stand up here and say that coming up with this strategy will be easy, or pretend to know all the answers.

But part of the answer is recognizing that while unions and government can no longer provide this opportunity in the form of lifetime employment; they can ensure that every American worker has lifetime employability in this new economy.

That means fixing our schools to make sure every child in America has the education and the skills they need to compete - and that college is affordable for every American who wants to go. And it means that unions can play a real role in finally creating a real system of lifelong learning so that workers who lose a job really can retrain for other high-wage jobs.

It means spurring job creation and innovation by investing our resources into research and development projects -- not cutting them. It means investing in broadband and in medical technology; working with local communities to create centers of innovation. It's time to fuel the genius and the innovation that will lead to the new jobs and new industries of the future.

Right now, all across America, there are amazing discoveries being made. At Pittsburgh's Carnegie Mellon University, researchers have developed a virtual algebra tutor that has helped inner-city kids in under-served schools raise their scores an entire letter grade. In rural Virginia, telemedicine recently allowed a cardiologist 75 miles from the hospital to view an ultrasound and diagnose a congenital heart defect that required immediate medication, saving a young child's life. And in the very cornfields of Illinois, farmers are literally growing the biofuels that could ultimately run our cars on 500 miles per gallon. Breakthroughs like these won't just improve our lives, they'll create thousands of jobs that could be filled by American workers trained with new skills and a world-class education.

In this new economy, we should be able to tell workers that no matter where you work or how many times you switch jobs, you will have health care and a pension you can take with you always. We'll never rise together if we allow medical bills to swallow family budgets or let people retire penniless after a lifetime of hard work, and so today we must demand that when it comes to commitments made to working men and women on health care and pensions, a promise made is a promise kept.

Our vision of America is not one where a big government runs our lives; it's one that gives every American the opportunity to make the most of their lives. It's not one that tells us we're on our own, it's one that realizes that we rise or fall together as one people.

And yet, we also know that, in the end, neither policy nor politics can replace heart and courage in the struggle you now face. Because in the brief history of the American experiment, it has been the ability of ordinary Americans to act on both that has allowed our nation to achieve extraordinary things.

It's why farmers put down their ploughs and picked up arms to overthrow an Empire for the sake of an idea. It's why young men and women would take Freedom Rides down South to work for the Civil Rights movement. And it's why workers would stand cold, hungry, and penniless on picket lines until their labor was treated with the dignity it deserved.

Almost a century earlier, during the struggle for the soul of Chicago's stockyards, Hank Johnson, a leading African-American union organizer, told a crowd of laborers that in the end, speeches don't make unions. He said that "The real job of organizing has to be done everyday by the men and women who work right in the plant."

That's as true today as it was then - the real job of organizing working America - politics and policy, vision and mission, heart and soul - belongs to each of you. And if you have the courage to succeed, labor will rise again. America will rise again. And hope will rise again. Thank you and God Bless you.


by rapallos on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 12:37:57 AM EST

Re: Warmonger (3.00 / 2)

So Barak is excellent at tearing down straw men. Thanks but we already knew that.


by adamterando on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 01:34:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Warmonger (none / 0)

He is also good at tearing down GOP talking points.

Speeches like this one also go after the notion that the free market and bootstraps are all we need to succeed.

Problem is, much of America, including MANY Democrats (DLC, etc.), believe these strawmen are real.

I'll grant you he should be more careful not to damage the Democratic brand, too. I understand those criticisms.

The "hope means waiting two years" meme is also a strawman, no? Yes, it is, because nobody really argues that we should do nothing and have no community service while we wait for the next president.


Visit DebateScoop
by demondeac on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 11:40:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Warmonger (none / 0)

About the hope thing. I don't think that's a straw man because Edwards is talking about community service also in terms of ending poverty, nationalized health care, and union organizing.

I see no grand vision from Obama at this point. I see transactions.


by adamterando on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 11:58:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Warmonger (none / 0)

Here is the quote from Edwards:

"Identifying the problem and talking about hope is waiting for tomorrow."

That is a strawman. Because that's not a position anyone actually takes. Nobody actually advocates merely identifying problems and talking about hope.

We can't find a politician that does not use strawman arguments.

Strwman arguments are effective, indeed useful and good, ways to make points many times. They are a form of hyperbole.

As I sad before, criticcizing Obama for some of the strawmen he uses, those that distort people's perceptions of Democrats is legitimate. But Obama more often attacks the right wing.

In this case, Edwards did not identify his target directly but it can be perceived as an attack on a fellow Democrat (and as an attack on the Kerry/Edwards rhetoric of 2004).


Visit DebateScoop
by demondeac on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 04:18:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Edwards Beaten (1.00 / 2)

Oops, poor little Johnny Boy caught in a lie. Here is Obama talking about global warming. See action, I do.   Guess Edwards is a liar, or stupid.  I guess stupid.

But today, we're seeing that climate change is about more than a few unseasonably mild winters or hot summers. It's about the chain of natural catastrophes and devastating weather patterns that global warming is beginning to set off around the world - the frequency and intensity of which are breaking records thousands of years old.

In Washington, issues come and go with the political winds. And they are generally covered through that prism: Who's up and who's down? Which party benefits? Which party loses?

But in these superficial exchanges, we often lose sight of the real and lasting meaning of the decisions we make and those we defer.

The issue of climate change is one that we ignore at our own peril. There may still be disputes about exactly how much we're contributing to the warming of the earth's atmosphere and how much is naturally occurring, but what we can be scientifically certain of is that our continued use of fossil fuels is pushing us to a point of no return. And unless we free ourselves from a dependence on these fossil fuels and chart a new course on energy in this country, we are condemning future generations to global catastrophe.

Just think about some of the trends we've seen.

Since 1980, we've experienced nineteen of the twenty hottest years on record - with 2005 being the hottest ever.

These high temperatures are drying up already dry land, causing unprecedented drought that's ruining crops, devastating farmers and spreading famine to already poor parts of the world. Over the last four decades, the percentage of the Earth's surface suffering drought has more than doubled. In the United States, the drought we experienced in 2002 was the worst in forty years. And in Africa, more rivers are beginning to dry up, threatening the water supply across the continent.

As more land becomes parched, more forests are starting to burn. Across Indonesia, throughout Alaska, and in the Western United States, wildfires have raged in recent years like never before. A new record was set in 2002, as more than 7 million acres burned from Oregon down to Arizona.

And while the situation on the land may look ugly, what's going on in the oceans is even worse. Hurricanes and typhoons thrive in warm water, and as the temperature has risen, so has the intensity of these storms. In the last thirty-five years, the percentage of Category 4 and 5 hurricanes has doubled, and the wind speed and duration of these storms has jumped 50%. A hurricane showed up in the South Atlantic recently when scientists said it could never happen. Last year, Japan set a new record when it suffered its tenth typhoon and the United States set a record for the most tornadoes we've ever had. And at one point, Hurricane Wilma was the most powerful storm ever measured.

These are all frightening situations, but perhaps none more so than what is beginning to occur at the North and South Poles. There, a satellite image from space or a trip to the region shows indisputable evidence that the polar ice caps are melting. But it's not just a slow, steady thaw that's been occurring over centuries, it's a rapidly accelerating meltdown that may eventually dump enough water into the ocean to annihilate coastal regions across the globe.

In 1996, a melting Greenland dumped about 22 cubic miles of water into the sea. Today, just ten years later, it's melting twice as fast. In real terms, this means that every single month, Greenland is dumping into the ocean an amount of water 54 times greater than the city of Los Angeles uses in an entire year. All in all, Greenland has enough ice to raise the global sea level 23 feet, making a New Orleans out of nearly every coastal city imaginable.

Indeed, the Alaskan village of Shishmaref could be just the beginning.

And yet, despite all the ominous harbingers of things to come, we do not have to stand by helplessly and accept this future. In fact, we can't afford to. Climate change may be unleashing the forces of nature, but we can't forget that this has been accelerated by man and can be slowed by man too.

By now, the culprit of this climate change is a familiar one, as is the solution. Last September, when I gave my first speech on energy, I talked about how our dependence on oil is hurting our economy, decimating our auto industry, and costing us millions of jobs. A few months ago, I discussed how the oil we import is jeopardizing our national security by keeping us tied to the world's most dangerous and unstable regimes. And when it comes to climate change, it's the fossil fuels we insist on burning - particularly oil - that are the single greatest cause of global warming and the damaging weather patterns that have been its result.

You'd think by now we'd get the point on energy dependence. Never has the failure to take on a single challenge so detrimentally affected nearly every aspect of our well-being as a nation. And never have the possible solutions had the potential to do so much good for so many generations to come.

Of course, many Americans have gotten this point, and it's true that the call for energy independence is now coming from an amazingly diverse coalition of interests. From farmers and businesses, military leaders and CIA officials, scientists and Evangelical Christians, auto executives and unions, and politicians of almost every political persuasion, people are realizing that an oil future is not a secure future for this country.

And yet, when it comes to finding a way to end our dependence on fossil fuels, the greatest vacuum in leadership, the biggest failure of imagination, and the most stubborn refusal to admit the need for change is coming from the very people who are running the country.

By now, the Bush Administration's record on climate change is almost legendary. This is the administration that commissioned government experts and scientists to do a study on global warming, only to omit the part from the final report that said it was caused by humans. This is the administration that didn't try to improve the Kyoto Treaty by trying to include oil guzzlers like China and India, but walked away from the entire global effort to stem climate change. And just recently, this is the administration that tried to silence a NASA scientist for letting the rest of us know that yes, climate change is a pretty big deal.

Meanwhile, it's pretty tough to make any real progress on this issue in Congress when the Chairman of the committee in charge of the environment thinks that, in the face of literally thousands of scientists and studies that say otherwise, global warming is the "greatest hoax ever perpetrated on the American people." And you know it's bad when the star witness at his global warming hearing is a science fiction writer.

Now, after the President's last State of the Union, when he told us that America was addicted to oil, there was a brief moment of hope that he'd finally do something on energy.

I was among the hopeful. But then I saw the plan.

His funding for renewable fuels is at the same level it was the day he took office. He refuses to call for even a modest increase in fuel-efficiency standards for cars. And his latest budget funds less then half of the energy bill he himself signed into law - leaving hundreds of millions of dollars in under-funded energy proposals.

This is not a serious effort. Saying that America is addicted to oil without following a real plan for energy independence is like admitting alcoholism and then skipping out on the 12-step program. It's not enough to identify the challenge - we have to meet it.

See, there's a reason that some have compared the quest for energy independence to the Manhattan Project or the Apollo moon landing. Like those historic efforts, moving away from an oil economy is a major challenge that will require a sustained national commitment.

During World War II, we had an entire country working around the clock to produce enough planes and tanks to beat the Axis powers. In the middle of the Cold War, we built a national highway system so we had a quick way to transport military equipment across the country. When we wanted to pull ahead of the Russians into space, we poured millions into a national education initiative that graduated thousands of new scientists and engineers.

America now finds itself at a similar crossroads. As gas prices keep rising, the Middle East grows ever more unstable, and the ice caps continue to melt, we face a now-or-never, once-in-a-generation opportunity to set this country on a different course.

Such a course is not only possible, it's already being pursued in other places around the world. Countries like Japan are creating jobs and slowing oil consumption by churning out and buying millions of fuel-efficient cars. Brazil, a nation that once relied on foreign countries to import 80% of its crude oil, will now be entirely self-sufficient in a few years thanks to its investment in biofuels.

So why can't we do this? Why can't we make energy security one of the great American projects of the 21st century?

The answer is, with the right leadership, we can. We can do it by partnering with business, not fighting it. We can do it with technology we already have on the shelf. And we can do it by investing in the clean, cheap, renewable fuels that American farmers grow right here at home.

To deal directly with climate change, something we failed to do in the last energy bill, we should use a market-based strategy that gradually reduces harmful emissions in the most economical way. John McCain and Joe Lieberman are continuing to build support for legislation based on this approach, and Senators Bingaman and Domenici are also pursuing proposals that will cut carbon emissions. Right here in Chicago, the Chicago Climate Exchange is already running a legally binding greenhouse gas trading system.

The idea here is simple: if you're a business that can't yet meet the lower cap we'll put on harmful carbon emissions, you can either purchase credits from other companies that have achieved more than their emissions goal, or you can temporarily purchase a permit from the government, the money from which will go towards investments in clean energy technology. As Fred Krupp, the president of Environmental Defense has said, "Once you put a value on carbon reductions, you make winners out of innovators."

Any strategy for reducing carbon emissions must also deal with coal, which is actually the most abundant source of energy in this country. To keep using this fossil fuel, I believe we need to invest in the kind of advanced coal technology that will keep our air cleaner while still keeping our coal mines in business. Over the next two decades, power companies are expected to build dozens of new coal-fired power plants, and countries like India and China will build hundreds. If they use obsolete technology, these plants will emit over 60 billion tons of heat-trapping pollution into the atmosphere. We need to act now and make the United States a leader in puting in place the standards and incentives that will ensure that these plants use available technology to capture carbon dioxide and dispose of it safely underground.
But of course, one of the biggest contributors to our climate troubles and our energy dependence is oil, and so any plan for the future must drastically reduce our addiction to this dirty, dangerous, and ultimately finite source of energy.

We can do this by focusing on two things: the cars we drive and the fuels we use.

The President's energy proposal would reduce our oil imports by 4.5 million barrels per day by 2025. Not only can we do better than that, we must do better than that if we hope to make a real dent in our oil dependency. With technology we have on the shelves right now and fuels we can grow right here in America, by 2025 we can reduce our oil imports by over 7.5. million barrels per day - an amount greater than all the oil we are expected to import from the entire Middle East.

For years, we've hesitated to raise fuel economy standards as a nation in part because of a very legitimate concern - the impact it would have on Detroit. The auto industry is right when they argue that transitioning to more hybrid and fuel-efficient cars would require massive investment at a time when they're struggling under the weight of rising health care costs, sagging profits, and stiff competition.

But it's precisely because of that competition that they don't have a choice. China now has a higher fuel economy standard than we do, and Japan's Toyota is doubling production of the popular Prius to sell 100,000 in the U.S. this year.

There is now no doubt that fuel-efficient cars represent the future of the auto industry. If American car companies hope to be a part of that future - if they hope to survive - they must start building more of these cars. This isn't just about energy - this is about the ability to create millions of new jobs and save an entire American industry.

But that's not to say we should leave the industry to face the transition costs on its own. Yes, we should raise fuel economy standards by 3% a year over the next fifteen years, starting in 2008. With the technology they already have, this should be an achievable goal for automakers. But we can help them get there.

Right now, one of the biggest costs facing auto manufacturers isn't the cars they make, it's the health care they provide. Health care costs make up $1,500 of the price of every GM car that's made - more than the cost of steel. Retiree health care alone cost the Big 3 automakers nearly $6.7 billion just last year.

I believe we should make the auto companies a deal that could solve this problem. It's a piece of legislation I introduced called "Health Care for Hybrids," and it would allow the federal government to pick up part of the tab for the auto companies' retiree health care costs. In exchange, the auto companies would then use some of that savings to build and invest in more fuel-efficient cars. It's a win-win proposal for the industry - their retirees will be taken care of, they'll save money on health care, and they'll be free to invest in the kind of fuel-efficient cars that are the key to their competitive future.

But building cars that use less oil is only one side of the equation. The other involves replacing the oil we use with the home-grown biofuels that will finally slow the warming of the planet. In fact, one study shows that using cellulosic ethanol fuel instead of oil can reduce harmful emissions by up to 75%.

Already, there are hundreds of fueling stations that use a blend of ethanol and gasoline known as E85, and there are millions of cars on the road with the flexible-fuel tanks necessary to use this fuel - including my own right here in Illinois.

But the challenge we face with these biofuels is getting them out of the labs, out of the farms, and onto the wider commercial market.

The federal government can help in a few ways here, and recently, I introduced the American Fuels Act with Senator Dick Lugar to get us started.

First, this legislation would reduce the risk of investing in renewable fuels by providing loan guarantees and venture capital to those entrepreneurs with the best plans to develop and sell biofuels on a commercial market.

Second, it would let the private sector know that there will always be a market for renewable fuels by creating an alternative diesel standard in this country that would blend millions of more gallons of renewable fuels into the petroleum supply each year.

Third, it would help make sure that every single new car in America is a flexible-fuel vehicle within a decade. Currently it costs manufacturers just $100 to add these tanks to each car. But we can do them one better. If they install flexible-fuel tanks in their cars before the decade's up, we will provide them a $100 tax credit to do it - so there's no excuse for delay. And we'd also give consumers a bargain by offering a 35 cents tax credit for every gallon of E85 they use.

Fourth, this legislation calls for a Director of Energy Security to oversee all of our efforts. Like the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs and the National Intelligence Director, this person would be an advisor to the National Security Council and have the full authority to coordinate America's energy policy across all levels of government. He or she would approve all major budget decisions and provide a full report to Congress and the country every year detailing the progress we're making toward energy independence.

Finally, while it's not in the bill, we should also make sure that every single automobile the government purchases is a flexible-fuel vehicle - starting today. When it becomes possible in the coming years, we should also make sure that every government car is the type of hybrid that you can plug-in to an outlet and recharge.

As the last few residents of Shishmaref pack up their homes and leave their tiny seaside village behind, I can't help but think that right now, history is testing our generation.

Will we let this happen all over the world? Will we stand by while drought and famine, storms and floods overtake our planet? Or will we look back at today and say that this was the moment when we took a stand? That this was the moment when we began to turn things around?

The climate changes we are experiencing are already causing us harm. But in the end, it will not be us who deal with its most devastating effects. It will be our children, and our grandchildren.

I have two daughters, aged three and seven. And I can't help but think that they are the reason I wanted to make a difference in this country in the first place - to give them a better, more hopeful world to raise their children.

This is our generation's chance to give them that world. It's a chance that will not last much longer, but if we work together and seize this moment, we can change the course of this nation forever. I hope we can start today. Thank you.


by rapallos on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 12:46:20 AM EST

Re: Edwards Beaten (3.00 / 2)

"I believe we should make the auto companies a deal that could solve this problem. It's a piece of legislation I introduced called "Health Care for Hybrids," and it would allow the federal government to pick up part of the tab for the auto companies' retiree health care costs. In exchange, the auto companies would then use some of that savings to build and invest in more fuel-efficient cars. It's a win-win proposal for the industry - their retirees will be taken care of, they'll save money on health care, and they'll be free to invest in the kind of fuel-efficient cars that are the key to their competitive future."

That could be the stupidest plan I've ever heard coming out of a Democrat that ostensibly wants universal health care. So if this plan passes, where is the business support for enacting universal health care?


by adamterando on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 01:42:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards Beaten (3.00 / 3)

Obama is a politician. He is a politican that I like, but he is still a politician. He is hardly head over shoulders above Edwards.

I notice two other things.

1. He never talks about stopping global warming. Only slowing the warming and reducing emissions. He does not have the courage to put forth a plan that transitions away from a carbon-based economy. (Neither does Edwards I assume, but the point is, Obama is not any better in this regard).

2. He talks a lot about ethanol, but corn-based ethanol (and my family farmed corn and soybeans for generations in Illinois) is not that much better than oil as far as the emissions required to produce it. The much better ethanol, cellulosic ethanol, is not produced in Illinois. Yet he merges the two together and makes it sound like it's a win-win for everyone. Clearly it will not be.

Obama is a great politician and potentially a great leader. But at times he sounds transactional and DLCish. It saddens me.


by adamterando on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 01:47:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama (none / 0)

"He [Edwards] punted [New Orleans announcement]? "

Eyup...not just my opinion. Read the two Huffington Post columns for how Edwards missed it.

Michelle Pilecki

Harry Shearer  

"Nor has he really attacked Obama."

The person who started this thread viewed it that  way and likely there was some buzz to that effect.  

It is interesting that this is the second time in the last week that Edwards has resorted to imitating Obama's phrases in an Edwards speech.

We may as well vote for the original ;)


by BrionLutz on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 12:49:51 AM EST

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama (none / 0)

That is what I keep saying.  Edwards doesn't have an original thougt.  he makes little asides about Obama while he's on vacation but, uses his stuff.  
He's a used car salesman.  just too slick and sleazy and untrustworthy.
I'm sure Sen. Obama will hit edwards with this in time.  When it makes the most impact.
by vwcat on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 01:29:18 AM EST

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama Not (3.00 / 2)

I don't see this as an attack, at all.
I like Obama but I am constantly amazed at what I see as the overly negative reactions to Edwards that I see coming from the Obama Camp.
Truly disappointing.
"If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." Dalai Lama
by Predictor on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 02:43:29 AM EST

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama Not (3.00 / 1)

I noticed that too. Deamondeac is a notable exception, but there does seem to be a lot more animosity towards Edwards.

At this point I'm a strong Edwards supporter but I always try to be respectful of critcism of Obama because

  1. I do really like him
  2. I think he could do great things
  3. My mind could still be changed on who to support

I don't see that from a lot of Obama supporters at this point.


by adamterando on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 12:17:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama Not (none / 0)

I echo those sentiments.
I have the distinct impression that there is a prejudice against Edwards because he is a Southerner.
"If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." Dalai Lama
by Predictor on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 02:42:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Well... (3.00 / 1)

...there was a certain peanut farmer from Georgia who did pretty well up heah in the Granite State 30 years ago.


Wonder if Sununu's fired now.
by Dean Barker on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 08:26:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Well... (none / 0)

Sho'Nuff.
Thanks for making my point. As a Yankee who lived in the South for two decades, I understand. LOL.
Also, Al Gore did well in the NorthEast and not so hot in the Border/South.
"If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." Dalai Lama
by Predictor on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 11:50:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Poll vote other clarification (none / 0)

I selected Edwards, but that support is soft.  I hope Gore will step in.


by yd on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 03:18:28 AM EST

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama (none / 0)

I was the leader for my metro's Dean campaign for quite a while. Although Edwards isn't quite the barn-burner, I like his stance and I like his brand of cojones. He's getting my vote until I learn more from Richardson or Gore steps in.


Do a Barrel Roll!
by Bradford in Jax on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 04:37:43 AM EST

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama (none / 0)

oooh ya,edwards likes action,like the kind of action that makes you fuck-up and vote for a unessasary war becouse you know your going to run for pres and you want to look tuff on national defence.for me its either gore or obbama,nobody else has shown the kind of smart forward looking,Ive got the balls to make unpopular ,moral,smart decisions that help the country move foreward.


by idahojim on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 07:55:27 AM EST

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama (none / 0)

1) obama is another great communicator who doesn't seem to actually propose much at all
2) his electability is highly suspect
  a) he will not run against alan keyes this time
  b) moreover, the sad reality is that racism is still too strong in this country to elect a  black (man) president
  c) his name is `foreign`
  c) his midlle name ???

for get about him

frankly, there is no progressive currently running other than edwards


by macedc on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 09:04:03 AM EST

If you vote against a candiate (none / 0)

Because racists will vote against the candidate, what does that make you?

While I do think that "electability" deserves consideration, I don't think that it's just to count a person's race (or sex, or religion) against them, even if the majority of the electorate might.  

That said, by the time the people vote, I don't think they'll be voting for or against a one-dimensional black candidate; I think they'll be voting for or against the multidimensional Barack Obama.  Similar is true of Hillary, or Feingold, or anyone else.  Whatever negative a racist, sexist, or sectarian voter might attach to their race, sex, or religion, that will be one negative among many other positives and negatives.

Besides, how many voters who refuse to vote for a black candidate, or a woman candidate, or a Jewish candidate, would vote for a Democrat, even if he were a Christian white man?  And how many would be more inclined to vote for a Democratic candidate if they were Jewish, or a woman, or black?

Finally, however strong racism is in this country, it hasn't prevented black candidates from being elected statewide in (I'd guess) most of the country.  Georgia re-elected Leah Sears in 2004, and she's now the state's Chief Justice; it also re-elected Michael Thurmond, Thurbert Baker, and Harold Melton in 2006.  This despite the Republican lean of the state as a whole, and poor performances by Democrats in both years.

Overall, it's simply neither just nor wise to discount a good candidate because of their race.


by Drew on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 03:49:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama (3.00 / 2)

"b) moreover, the sad reality is that racism is still too strong in this country to elect a black (man) president."

That sounds like a reason to support his candidacy not oppose it.

One of the ironies of the current generation's color blindness --- is the failure to understand how much racisim is out there and why Obama's candidacy could be an important and historic step forward for the nation -- win or lose.

In 2003 there were those who said America would not elect an anti-war candidate President in the wake of 9-11.   Maybe those people were right -- Howard Dean's campaign was still worth waging -- supporting that campaign was still the right thing to do -- and the campaign and the support it garnered MAY have impacted the pace with which Americans began to oppose the war.

I do not have a candidate yet -- but don't use racism as a reason to walk away from Obama.


by JoeTrippi on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 09:38:43 AM EST

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama (none / 0)

disagree w. you. race is neither a reason to support or not support a candidate. as a black guy, I feel too many want to support obama in part because of race. there are many places this might matter but not the presidency.


by bruh21 on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 10:53:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama (none / 0)

my reply below is to this comment -- I agree with you that race should not be the basis of voting for or against someone.


by JoeTrippi on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 11:58:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama (none / 0)

I agree with you, Trippi.  There are more important things than winning.  Politics is the art of the possible but that cannot mean that we surrender our rights.

Besides, if the Republicans want to race bait then there is an opportunity to hold them accountable.  If we have our act together, that's a fight that we will win.

If we give in to racism then we have lost much more than one election.


by Hellmut on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 11:37:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama (none / 0)

Yeah but I"m supporting Edwards at this point because I like his vision and where he stands on the issues. Not because I"m giving in to racism.


by adamterando on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 12:13:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama (3.00 / 1)

I am also for Edwards.  I would not be scared to campaign for Obama once he identifies some goals.


by Hellmut on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 12:39:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama (none / 0)

This whole exchange started with someone saying that Obama can't win because America will not elect a black guy president.   I agree with you -- but in a nation where only 1 African American sits in the US Senate and none has ever gotten even close to winning the White House I am not inclined to discourage any urge people may have for supporting an African American candidate for President.


by JoeTrippi on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 11:31:04 AM EST

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama (none / 0)

I don't support Obama because of his race.  I don't think many of his Illinois supporters who know him best and voted for him do so because of his race.  People who have attended his appearances feel a deep connection to him and his message of improving living conditions of regular Americans and reestablishing America's reputation in the world.  Those who gather around him and would follow him anywhere are all ages, all races and from all walks of life.  I am constantly amazed by all the misconceptions about Obama.  Alot of people are completely clueless.  It is true that he was against the war from the beginning.  You can read his Oct.'02 speech on his website.  I have a strong feeling that by primary season the public will not care what the heck his name is or whatever the tint of his skin.  They will vote for him because of his character, decency, common sense and pursuit of the greater good.  He will raise the level of political discourse and will raise spirits and the people will like him---really like him.      


by grammadot on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 11:51:42 AM EST

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama (3.00 / 2)

According to a recent article of African Americans on the subject of Obama- many like me- are deeply suspicious of the 'can't we all just get' along meme by Obama. The reality is this- white progressives at this point seem to like him better in general than African Americans. I suspect, whether white progressive will admit it or not, it's because they are impressed by a black guy who has th potential to be president one day. Now, I am not saying that you are white or that all white progressives feel that, but this would be a dishonest discussion to protend there isn't a liberal bent toward wanting diversity for diversity's sake. I understand and agree with that, but I don't think that should cloud the discussion. When I am reading comments such as you "American from all walks of life" and all other such flowery words that do not conform to what I have been seeing and hear people write and say then I got to question what's motivating this. I got to wonder if this is like my experience in college and law school where people would be 'impressed' that I as a black man was able to converse with them, and not only that, prove myself their equal or superior when it came to arguing a position. As a black guy, i am looking at Obama from a pragmatic eye. Even your post is about charisma and charm- and that's simply not enough for me. I want to also see toughness, a clear vision and willingness to beat back the GOP frame of the last 30 years. In other words, getting al ong is cute, winning and doing something is better. When race gets mixed up in this several things with progressives normally happen, especially white progressives: a) above I tried pointing how I was called racist recently for questioning Obama's candidacy , and the person above asks why do I bring race into the conversation (as though its not going to exist if we pretend it doesn't exist) b) because of the reality of racism in America people go through extra efforts to make a candidate more than what or she is (beyond making you feel good, what is special about Obama. what happens to all of that when tells you think that aren't meant to make you feel good? c) they become overly senstive to calling a situation racist (a la recent diary over at D Kos which confused effect (that there were few people of color in the blogs with effect - that the blogs dont want people of color when in fact its an access, interest, etc issues).

Finally, here's the deal- if you keep calling people "cluless" who have frankly seen candidates hyped like you are hype Obama then you aren't going to win over many people beyond your core supporters. This whole walk on water routine is bs. Not one of these candidates is above scrutinty. Generally speaking, I can say from my experience that most African Americans are pragmatist. Most of the reaction in terms of Obama as per the recent articles (which you are going to have to google or yahoo) by the AP and NYTimes I think by the AA community is lukewarm. We have heard the flowery speeches before. The question isn't whether we all want to get a long. Its whether when we can't- what will he do? Which side will he be on? Will he toss the AA community under the bridge to make sure white America feels good.

Also, when supporters such as yourself are challenged to point out specific speeches that say what you claim they say- its generally a Rorshach's test. You are seeing from vague and often  deliberately general rhectoric what you want to see. My question is why? Here for example Edwards is using no less the same kind of rhectoric, but adds the importance of action- and yet the reaction is "I don't trust him." I have no idea if Edwards will be a good candidate or not. Indeed, I thought his debate with Cheney wasn't so good. but he has started off more concretely thatn Obama has. My question is from where is this emotional double standard coming? Part of it for some I feel is race. Obama fits into a narrative that progrssives would like to believe of themselves, and Edwards does not. I think either men could be good, but must be vetted, and pushed to be better than what they are showing. That's the least if you want your person to win you should be doing rather than this sycophantic he can walk on water routine that passes for discussion such as calling people who disagree with you "clueless."


by bruh21 on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 01:00:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama (none / 0)

You provide a lot to think about.  I like how you've approached the issue of progressives, diversity, progressive candidates, race and how many of us want more than mere "Let's all get along" (i.e., We worship an awesome god in blue states, and we care about privacy in red states...) speeches from our Democratic candidates.  We want a candidate that employs rhetoric and action to AFFIRMITATLY beat back the republican "brain washing" that America has been subjected to over the past 30 years.  I'm certainly ready for an unabashed transformational progressive president.

I'm Latino and come at the issues that you raise from a similar angle, though I understand that the challenges are different in degrees for our Latino and Black communities.  At any rate, I understand what you write about, and appreciate how you're coming at it.  And, like you, while I'm open to a bid by Sen Obama, at present I'm, at best, ambivalent about his "Let's all get along" style of campaigning.  


Vox Mia -- Adding My Voice to the Chorus
by bedobe on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 01:59:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama (none / 0)

I'm from Illinois and yep, my skin is white, and I can obviously only speak from that perspective.  But it seems to me that you are overanalyzing.  "Is Obama black enough?" is as stupid as asking "Is Obama white enough?"  What I have witnessed, in person, is that no one ends up caring about either of those questions in regard to Obama.  I'm not saying there are not still bigots lurking about, but I believe that the number of young voters he will attract will more than offset the old KKK types.  They're all getting older and will soon die off anyway.  And then---ta da!---a better world for sure----my girls and all other young people I know and read about could care less if someone is black or not and gay or not---they have friends in all places. I have followed Obama's career from the beginning when he first ran for state office.  He has never disappointed, except the Condi vote---which I disagreed with--don't like liars.  And here's what I experienced at an Obama town hall meeting at a jr. college gym---packed to the rafters---in my mostly conservative corner of Illinois(represented for what seemed 100 yrs. by Phil Crane, if that will give you a clue).  First, the public greeted him as if it were the arrival of Michael Jordan at the height of the Bulls championships.  In the audience were little old white ladies, college students, young men in suits, young mothers, and everything in between.  Skeptics became believers.  And what the heck is wrong with charisma by the way? Like the Iowa folks I met after the pres. election who explained, even tho they hated Bush's war and most of his policies they didn't vote for Kerry because they just didn't like him.  Bingo!  People like Obama---all kinds of people---and that's important.  In fact, it may be the most important thing of all.  When I was in the grocery line and mentioned to someone I saw them at the Obama appearance, from all around came words of praise in response.  "I just love him".  "Isn't he great?" etc.  And these were people from "all walks of life".  And that's the truth.  And no one said I just love him because he's black or even tho he's black.  He seems to transcend race---like Oprah and Tiger.  As much as you may find it hard to believe, it really doesn't enter into the equation.  That is my experience.  It's what I know and saw and felt.  


by grammadot on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 02:11:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama (none / 0)

Bruh21 is in no way suggesting that Sen Obama should be "more black."  It is frankly beyond understanding how you could've drawn that conclusion.  Seriously.  Here, in fact, so that it's clear, is what Bruh21 is looking for in a candidate, whether that candidate be White, Latino, Black or any other group:

I want to also see toughness, a clear vision and willingness to beat back the GOP frame of the last 30 years.
[Emphasis added.]

No where there does it say anything about a candidate having to be "more" of any race.  And, of course, the previous quote does not exclude charisma.  All that some of us that are not sold on, nor as enthusiastic about Sen Obama at this point, is that we want to see more than vague notions about "getting along," no matter how beautifully couched the message may be.  Forget about "transcending race," it's about transcending the past 30 years of what's been more or less conservative/republican conventional wisdom in virtually every aspect of our public discussion.


Vox Mia -- Adding My Voice to the Chorus
by bedobe on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 02:53:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama (none / 0)

I agree with your post. To Pastor Dan over at Street Prophet I couch it in terms of sacrifice. So far Obama has talked about concilliation, but not about what we will have to sacrifice. Edwards, whether I agree with him or not on the specifics I am not certain, at least is talking in terms of hope and sacrifice. Hope is the part that keeps you going. Sacrifice and action is the stuff you got to do to move things beyond just hoping. So far, what I suspect makes a lot of leery is that we've had a lot of hope being thrusted at us before. We are experienced with the world enough to know that's not enough. I want to know what he is willing to do? Not the specifics, but generally when he has to make a choice between concilliation, and sacrificing for the common good. Which will he choose? I honestly don't pretend to have the answers. I am just bothered no one after Kerry and Gore seems to think it necessary to understand these things. To define your narrative before the GOP does. The lesson they seemed to have learned is to remain crtique, and not that toughness and defining the narrative matters. More than Obama, this concerns me. Because the drop dead lesson they should have learned from Kerry is not that we shouldn't get a head fo the narrative. But, Obama's language is reactive in that sense. By remaining vague he leaves a vacuum not just for us, but as a moderate GOP supporter said to me recently, for the GOP to fill. My concern is that while he's busy, if he were our nominee, sticking his hand out and waxing philisophical how although he has his opinion the other side may have some point, they will be chopping his hand off, referring to him as Husien, and referring his race through code. He has to be tough enough to deal with this,. and deal with it enough force to win.


by bruh21 on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 03:51:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama (none / 0)

He has to be tough enough to deal with this,. and deal with it enough force to win.

If this is still a question for you, I can only conclude that you have never actually met Obama.  This will all become clear over the next several months; until then, it would be best for the progressive movement and the Democratic party if the internecine warriors like Stoller refrained from trying to kneecap Obama before he gets out of the gate.


by Disputo on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 11:34:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama (none / 0)

OK, I'm thinking about what the various Progressive candidates have done that have stuck in mind as singularly bold and courageous to impress me and earn my excitement and interest:

John Edwards-- Making poverty the centerpiece of his campaign (a big liberal vision that flies in the face of the dominant universe of rightwing/DLC ideology out there).
Wes Clark--Showing up for the battle in Connecticut and taking a stand with Ned Lamont.
Russ Feingold (dropped out)--Introducing the initiative to censure President Bush.
Barrack Obama--?

Can somebody fill in the question mark please on an incident when Obama has taken risks, has boldly advanced or defended on behalf of Progressivism (or in the case of Feingold, against fascism)?
And I don't mean that he has the right positions on Progressive issues, but that he has stepped onto the national stage all by himself and bucked conventional wisdom or taken risks on behalf of his core progressive values?
These candidate don't get my support solely because of their one big bold effort, but it shows that they have courage to take risks on behalf of progressive causes and ideas. I want that. Years and years of waffling, triangulating, souless Democrats has made this type of incident a gateway to my activist heart.
Since we're talking about race in this thread, I'll put up an example of a black Progressive leader winning my heart:
Al Sharpton--At the 2004 Democratic convention, the powers-that-be maintained a strick, hear, speak, and see-no-evil policy to not allow any of the speakers to call bullshit on the Republicans. Al Sharpton broke discipline and called it the way it was. I've loved that guy ever since.
I'm afraid that right now Obama is looking alot more like Colin Powell than Al Sharpton--he's got all the credibility and the power, but he's not going to take a risk and do the right thing.


by johnalive on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 03:09:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama (none / 0)

A sign of someone who is a strong progressive from what I have read of him is actually the new governor of Massachusetts. He gets a wide range of support too, and he hasn't appeared to be afraid of his own shadow. Now, I don't know if he will govern that way but a few articles I have read says that he will. The idea that we are suppose to look at African americans any differently in terms of expectations of progressive leadership is what bothers me here. Obama isn't anywhere near as bad as Ford of TN. In fact he is much  better, but the same arguments that I often see here- this bending over backwards to somehow seem "okay" with a candidate who hasn't fully shown their bona fides is what bothers me here. I am not saying dont try to find black candidates, but I am saying have some criteria other than "oh look a black man who can give a good speech and make me feel good inside." That's not judging them by the same standard as all leaders.


by bruh21 on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 03:39:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The McCain Doctrine -- brilliant framing (none / 0)

John Edwards referring to the Iraq surge (escalation) as "The McCain doctrine" is brilliant framing to drape the deepening war debacle all over McCain. We should plug that phrase into our own echo chamber and use it as much as possible.
I'm impressed with Edwards again. I think he's running the marquee campaign right now. If Edwards isn't the candidate, that frame should outlive his campaign it's so good.
by johnalive on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 02:24:24 PM EST

Re: The McCain Doctrine -- brilliant framing (none / 0)

And you can't accuse Edwards of copying that from someone else.


by workingclassanna on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 04:05:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama (none / 0)

What Edwards is doing, positioning himself as the liberal against the moderates Obama and Hillary, is really smart and a breath of fresh air.

But if you look at qualifications, you'll remember that Edwards was the Obama of 2004.  The guy who gave a good speech, but only had one term in the Senate and a lawyer's career before that, with no real foreign policy interest or experience.

I suspect that Edwards may be the really formidable opponent against my guy, Wesley Clark.  I just hope people will realize that a man who has spent his life in diplomatic and leadership roles is a better choice.

But people really don't "realize" things --- they respond to publicity.  I just hope that Clark's years of studying the situation now will bring out the campaign to put him on top, where we need him.


by catherineD on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 03:00:56 PM EST

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama (none / 0)

"What Edwards is doing, positioning himself as the liberal against the moderates Obama and Hillary, is really smart and a breath of fresh air."

Except Edwards doesn't have the track record to support such a position and Hillary and Obama are arguably to left of Edwards on many issues.

Particularly on Iraq, the defining issue of the 2006 election and probably still huge in 2008.  Edwards is in a losing position in comparison to Obama.

He didn't oppose the war like Obama.

He doesn't have a hawkish alternative like McCain.

He's "stuck in the middle with Hillary" and that wears on a candidates credibility and carries over  to all other issues due to the huge consequences to the US of the Iraq disaster...on national security (terrorism, rise of Shiite theocracies, control of US oil supplies by those theocracies) and economics (oil costs, oil trade deficit, budget deficit and debt).


by BrionLutz on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 04:32:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama (none / 0)

Obama didn't support or not support anything- he wasn;t in congress.


by bruh21 on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 06:14:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama (none / 0)

C'mon, he spoke out vigorously against the Iraq War from the beginning. I didn't buy this line of argument against Dean, and I don't buy it against Obama.

I like Edwards better than Obama, but lets' be fair here.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 07:49:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama (none / 0)

he didn't support or not support anything- he wasn't in congress.


by bruh21 on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 08:27:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama (none / 0)

No, he didn't vote on anything. But he did speak out against the invasion, and he spoke out against the war during his run for US Senate.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 10:31:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama (none / 0)

"What Edwards is doing, positioning himself as the liberal against the moderates Obama and Hillary, is really smart and a breath of fresh air."

Except Edwards doesn't have the track record to support such a position and Hillary and Obama are arguably to left of Edwards on many issues.

Particularly on Iraq, the defining issue of the 2006 election and probably still huge in 2008.  Edwards is in a losing position in comparison to Obama.

He didn't oppose the war like Obama.

He doesn't have a hawkish alternative like McCain.

He's "stuck in the middle with Hillary" and that wears on a candidates credibility and carries over  to all other issues due to the huge consequences to the US of the Iraq disaster...on national security (terrorism, rise of Shiite theocracies, control of US oil supplies by those theocracies) and economics (oil costs, oil trade deficit, budget deficit and debt).


by BrionLutz on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 04:34:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

If the choice is between (none / 0)

A candidate who is right on most of the issues and probably means it, and a candidate who is wrong on most of the issues and definitely means it, which do you choose?

I'd choose the former.  Probably good is better than definitely evil.

I think Edwards probably means it.  But in the event that he doesn't govern as progressively as he runs, what does it mean?  A victory for Edwards is not simply a victory for Edwards, but a victory for his rhetoric as well.  If a candidate who speaks like Edwards becomes the next president of the United States, it sends and unequivocally positive message.


by Drew on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 04:00:10 PM EST

Re: If the choice is between (none / 0)

Okay- where is he not progressive enough? Please cite presently rather than what he voted, and then said he was wrong on.


by bruh21 on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 06:13:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Please Don't Emulate O'Reilly and Matthews (3.00 / 2)

Matt, I agree with the dozens of comments that do NOT find this comment to be an attack on Obama at all.  Edwards is simply drawing a distinction between hoping for something, and DOING something.  Assume you personally were asked this question. What answer would you give?   I think Edwards gave the "correct answer."  It is time for action.

Also, as dozens of comments have rightly stated, "hope" has been a recurring campaign motif for just about every Democratic presidential candidate over the last 20 years.  In my recollection, the Jackson campaigns repeated a "hope mantra" again and again each time he ran.  (eg "Keep Hope Alive!").  And Bill Clinton's 92 campaign could not have hit the "hope note" harder:  here was "The Man FROM Hope!"  (And, remember how "Don't stop THINKING about tomorrow" played at the convention?)

So...if you want to artificially inflate the significance of a single isolated comment, maybe the lesson is that Democrats may close the book on 20 years worth of Democratic "hope motifing."  To me, this has very little to do with Obama, who has yet to even start his campaign for goodness sakes!!!  In fact, as I see it, your thesis hangs on the slender thread that Obama's campaign will be identical to...uh..well... the title of his book!!  What?

But really, set the thesis aside for the moment.  The insidious thing about your post is the use of the term "slashes at."  Why is it insidious?  Because it is literally NOT true!!!!!!  No one "slashed at" anyone.  

In your defense, will will likely say that you are using "slashed at" metaphorically.  But really, this metaphor is intellectual junk food.  It will rot your mind.  

Truly, our politics have become so debased by the casual (and yes, irresponsible) use of violent, snarky metaphors that bear only the slightest relationship to reality.  The sad thing is that people like O'Reilly and Matthews make a living by serving up this kind of intellectual junk food on a daily basis.  :(

And the people who consume this junk food end up with the most warped view of reality known to humanity.  How can you possibly ingest all that junk food and hope to purge all that out of your mind??  Thank goodness for all the people who do NOT watch these programs!  

Alternatively, you can say that such metaphors, no matter how distant from reality, just...well...sell.  I guess the New York Post sells papers this way.  Very sad.  

Bottom line:  Edwards and Obama are BOTH excellent candidates.  Don't sacrifice THAT REALITY by casually emulating O'Reilly and Matthews.


by Demo37 on Mon Jan 01, 2007 at 09:15:04 PM EST

Re: Please Don't Emulate O'Reilly and Matthews (none / 0)

Everyone here needs to realize that Stoller is ABO (anybody but Obama), and weigh his front page rants accordingly.


by Disputo on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 11:26:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

What amuses me (none / 0)

What amuses me is that the people who deride Obama for his "Law Professor" schtick are the same people falling for Edwards' "Courtroom Litigator" schtick.

I suppose it all depends on your personality which one you prefer, but, please, at least have the self-awareness to know what it is that you are reacting to.


by Disputo on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 11:24:19 AM EST

Re: Edwards Slashes at Obama (none / 0)

Your poll sucks. It doesn't include announced candidate, Kucinich. Remember, the guy who actually voted against the AUMF upon which Bush relies for all things GWOT and for which Edwards voted. I supported and worked for Dean in 03-04 and I am supporting Kucinich.


by notaboomer on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 02:29:36 PM EST


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