The Bar Fight Primary

When Ronald Reagan announced his Presidential run in 1980, he did it in Philadelphia, Mississippi, the town where three Civil Rights workers were killed.  He faced Jimmy Carter in the general, a conservative white evangelical who had built up the military budget, deregulated the airlines and was set on more deregulatory moves, and engaged in a program of fiscal austerity in non-military areas.  It was in this election though that Reagan pulled working class whites into the Republican camp, and solidified the Southern block so fully he did not have to run as a full-blown Dixiecrat.  Reagan, a genial and sunny Californian, could have it both ways because he had proved to the base that he was 'with them'.  Opening his campaign on a site that fully repudiated equal rights for blacks, that in a very real sense murdered liberals, was a way of saying to the emergent right-wing Confederate base that 'I am with you, I hate who you hate'.  It was a more mature form of Goldwaterite racism and anti-dirty fucking hippy-ness.  It was a statement that Reagan would play the role of President, but in a bar fight, in a close vote, where it really mattered, in all those small appointments, his sympathies would instinctively lean towards his base.

They trusted him, and they were rewarded.  And the first thing Reagan did as President was to smash the Air Traffic Controllers union, a way of saying that he ran on a hopeful and sunny vision of America, unions not included.  In other ways, like with the appointment of insane AG Ed Meese, a guy who brought us folks like Alito and really elevated the Federalist Society, Reagan stood with his base.  He was the President of all the people, sure, but his political path was set upon removing liberals from positions of power and putting in place right-wing conservatives to replace them.  But this did not just happen.  Reagan ran on goring liberals, blacks, union members, and gays.  He didn't do so overtly, but he spoke loud and clear if you were listening.  And then he governed with this awful mandate that the people had given him.

We need our own anti-Reagan, our own leader to show that the right-wing turn of the last 30 years is over.

We need a leader committed to responsible governance, anti-cronyism, social justice, an expansion of the Bill of Rights to include infrastructure changes, and a humble and morally powerful foreign policy.  But governing this way is not a matter of expressing the desire for unity and hope to all Americans, but expressing solidarity with the people who will help create such an America.  Those people are liberals.  We are the ones who want a different America, and who will help build it and push the right out of the way.  When the 'Obama is wimp' meme comes down from the establishment, we will be the ones to rebut it, or not.  When Clinton puts out an Iraq plan, we are the ones to implement it, or not.  When Edwards says that rebuilding New Orleans is a priority, we will run the primary campaigns against those who say otherwise, or not.  In other words, governance, fixing the very broken set of instruments of national power, cannot happen along progressives lines unless the candidate in 2008 is willing to challenge entrenched interests and use us to do it.

In 1992, it looked like Clinton was the guy to make this happen.  The first Boomer President, it looked, just like it looked with Obama, that he could move us beyond the 1960s era of polarization and implement universal health care.  It looked like the Vietnam syndrome was gone, and that reversing Reaganism was not only possible, but probable.  Clinton through screwed up royally, putting his faith in technocratic elites and media power rather than organizing tactics and liberals.  His health care plan was a case in point, with no organizing or real coalition work behind it.  He ran as an economic populist, but he didn't do the necessary organizing work or build the right bridges of trust to effectively govern.  It quickly became clear, and should have been clear during the campaign, that this was a great guy, but not someone who would be with you in a political bar fight.

The way to gain my support in 2008 is to show that in a bar fight, your sympathies are with liberals and are set against the bullies that have been running the country for so long.  You can run on anything you want, you can talk of unifying the country or any sort of conventional wisdom chatter.  You don't have to speak to me directly all the time with everything you say.  You can pander on video games or ethanol, or whatever you need.  But you have to speak on some critical point, some piece of entrenched power, and promise that you are going to gore that conservative ox.

The key point about the progressive movement that has emerged over the past eight years is that we are a group of people that feel deeply betrayed by our elites.  We feel that bullies have run roughshod over our country, and many of us bought your line that compromise with these bullies was the right strategy, until it became clear that you can't do business with these people.  In order to unify the country, these bullies need to be pushed out of the way, corrected for, and only then can the healing start.  Just as Reagan said he'd unify the country by pushing the liberals out of the way, we need someone who will unify the country by pushing irresponsible right-wing power centers out of the way.  They crushed our unions, we need to crush their talk radio, you know, that kind of thinking.

My assumptions here come from a basic love of country.  I believe that there are very bad people that have destroyed our capacity to govern, and that we need not just a new President but a new set of leaders willing to neuter these bad people and make real decisions about where we go as a country.  Without a real commitment to weaken irresponsible elite actors, 'unity' simply means a replay of Clinton, only without the credit and power that we had in the 1990s, and with a much more advanced case of global climate catastrophe, peak oil, and nuclear terrorism capacity on its way.

What I see in the Hillary crowd is an acceptance of the status quo, a belief that you can 'take Iraq off the table', and a willingness to accept a Democratic party dominated by relatively awful elite interests.  Their assumptions are that Bush is a bad President, but that our basic public discourse is fine, that America needs to scrape the barnacles off the hull.  Iraq was not executed properly you see, but let's not be too indelicate about it.  I see this too with Obama's people, who are by and large the Daschle crew.  If you liked Tom Daschle as Senate leader, you'll love Obama as President.  He basically accepts the dominance of immoral elites as necessary and good, and as far as I can tell wants to futz around the margins with well-crafted but small scale legislative efforts.  It's impossible to know whether his stroke of bravery - being against the war in Iraq - was principle or a savvy attempt to win in a crowded Democratic primary in 2003 where the target was liberal voters.  All of this is fine for a mediocre and moderate Senator from Illinois, which is what he's been.  But until he proves otherwise, he just is not with us.  He doesn't believe that bullies in power are the problem, he thinks that mean words are the problem.  Ok, fine, but don't expect me to buy that unifying nonsense as anything more than cult of personality mass media power.

In a bar fight, Obama and Hillary are not on our side.  Jerome doesn't think this matters, he doesn't much care about policy and he tends to see ideology as annoying except when it suits his 'get the single issue groups out of the way' purposes.  Those are legitimate strategic differences, and I get where he's coming from.  I tend to see ideology as a great organizing principle, as a tool of power rather than a burden.  And honestly, this debate may not matter because most of the candidates would seem to agree with Jerome.  

There are two candidates who can pass the bar fight primary.  One of them, Wes Clark, passes the test clearly.  He is a genuine liberal, and has fought the right clearly and consistently for the last four years, most recently in Connecticut when he was the only real surrogate against Lieberman.  I don't see how Clark can seriously compete, but this willingness to be on our side in a bar fight, recognizing the institutional challenges posed by the right, explains his continuing netroots support.  And then there's John Edwards.  I think Edwards is split.  He's spent much of his time working with unions, on the road, in low-key meetings.  Elizabeth Edwards has done outreach to bloggers, so there's at least acknowledgment of the dirty hippy crew.  He's announcing in New Orleans, which is dog whistle politics on our issues.  He knows he was wrong on the war, and feels our betrayal.  Unlike Clark, though, I still haven't seen him stand up for us in a real way.  I haven't seen him attack McCain, for instance, or go after the politicians who supported the Bankruptcy Bill.  I haven't seen him challenge any right-wing interests in a serious way, and so while I acknowledge he's in the ball park, he's not there yet.

There's a lot of room to play out.  There's also a strategic opportunity here to capitalize on the deep hopes of the American people that we can build a better America, and to recognize that these hopes are intertwined with an uneasy foreboding that this better America is being blocked by internal demons.  A sustained campaign against cronyism in government, an anti-corporate plank, a fight against talk radio and big media, a crusade against corporate immorality in New Orleans, food supply, activism around investigations - there are many ways to pull liberals on board.  All of them demand that the candidate pick one center of right-wing irresponsible power and run against it.  You really can unify the country that way.

Clinton was a very smart President who thought that he and his small crew had all the answers.  We know now that he (and all of us) misunderstood the nature of the role.  It isn't the job of the next President to have all the answers, that's up to the American people.  It's up to the next President to show that he's going to clear the way for us to take back our country.  

So that's my test for the primary.  Who's with us in a bar fight?  And if that's not your test, then you need to explain to yourself why you think the right-wing and the media are going to lie down and go to sleep after fifteen years of increasingly malignant civic behavior.



Display:


yes. Yes. YES. (3.00 / 1)

Wonderfully and ringingly said, Matt.  This is fantastic.

I would add to your list that Gore has also proven over the past six years that he's on our side in the bar fight.  I understand you left him out because there's no evidence that he's a candidate, but it's still worth a mention.


ProgressiveHistorians: History For Our Future
by Nonpartisan on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 12:17:05 PM EST

Re: yes. Yes. YES. (3.00 / 1)

Gore is the one that I would want, no doubt about it.  


by IsThisOverYet on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 12:37:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: yes. Yes. YES. (3.00 / 1)

I think the willingness to challenge existing power structures is what drives Gore's netroots support.


by Matt Stoller on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 01:12:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: yes. Yes. YES. (2.50 / 2)

Dude, this is brilliant -- yes, brilliant.  I agree with your two choices, though I would order them Edwards first, then Clark.  I also agree with your assessment of Hilary and Obama, the safest political maneuvers of the bunch -- in a bar fight I want scrappy and full of gaminess, not conciliatory, inoffensive and polite.


Vox Mia -- Adding My Voice to the Chorus
by bedobe on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 02:12:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I think Obama's on our side in a barfight (none / 0)

Have you read his books?


by ri on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 03:13:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I think Obama's on our side in a barfight (none / 0)

I'm more interested in what he says when he makes TV  apperances.  There I see him playing it safe.


Vox Mia -- Adding My Voice to the Chorus
by bedobe on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 02:18:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Edwards was behind Lamont! (3.00 / 2)

But regardless, he is still underestimated, and has not officially announced.

I think you will hear him more about everything not just McCain after he announces.

Stay tuned the real John Edwards is about to step forward.


Check out the New Progressive Blog EENRBLOG
by dk2 on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 02:42:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

On Edwards (3.00 / 3)

I think he has made a couple statements that stand out in my mind:
Universal Health Care

...take Universal Healthcare. We need to say we are for universal healthcare, we're going to fight for universal healthcare, and if someone gets in our way, we're going to push through them...

Public Financing

J. EDWARDS:  ...We spend so much money on political campaigns and we raise money from lots of interest groups and a lot of people don`t feel like they are participating in this democracy as a result.  I think the answer to this is to publicly finance our campaigns.

MATTHEWS:  Is McCain-Feingold a failure?

J. EDWARDS:  Yes.

Iraq

(paraphrased from memory and from OAC diary)We need to tell the truth about where we are today in Iraq where there are now only bad choices and worse choices and no-one knows the successful path.  We have a responsibility to use our best judgment and to eschew guarantees as none can be made.


BlueNC - Progressive NC Politics
by Robert P on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 03:06:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This is GREAT, Matt. Excellent analysis. (3.00 / 1)

and perfect quotations from Robert P.

I think that like he says in this behind the scenes video, Edwards is going to surprise a lot of people in what he says and does.


by dereau on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 08:00:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: yes. Yes. YES. (none / 0)

Gore is an existing power structure unto himself.


by craverguy on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 02:02:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hells Angels Rules (3.00 / 1)

I want a candidate who will reach for a pool cue.


by Bob Brigham on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 12:18:24 PM EST

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (3.00 / 1)

Good post, Matt.  I like how you express your thinking confidently and persuasively, but without the sort of "this is the only way to look at the candidates" rhetoric that tends to pervade the primary season.

Off hand, I can't think of any "dog whistle" signals Obama has sent our way, although I'm certainly open to examples.  He's certainly cast his fair share of good votes, but more often than not, he seems to be trying to send a message that even when he votes left he's not voting as a reflexive lefty.  I generally like Obama but he does seem to try awfully hard to reassure everyone that he's not a dirty hippie.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 12:20:36 PM EST

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (none / 0)

I sense that Obama's campaign is going to be that he is in favor of good things and will compromise with bad things because increased civility is the most important thing America needs right now.


by dereau on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 08:03:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes. (3.00 / 1)

well done.

Basically if you have our back, we will get yours.

And we may not look like much, but we pack a hell of a punch, and we make a better friend then an enemy or bystander.

-C.


by neutron on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 12:23:49 PM EST

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (3.00 / 2)

This post makes me reflect on The fine campaign art of getting honestly pissed off and retaining a modicum of dignity.

Some examples:

Mr Chairman, I PAID for this microphone (Reagan)  
Senator, you're no Jack Kennedy (Bentsen)
That #&+#@#!#* Jesse Jackson (Clinton, overheard)

Obviously, Howard Dean was and is fully able to show some "bar fight" backbone in debates and public appearances. Biden can be genuinely acid-toned and squint-eyed, though rarely to any useful effect.

This isn't exactly what Matt was talking about, but I suspect there will be a couple of defining moments along these lines during the '08 presidential grind.


Within weeks they'll be re-opening the shipyards And notifying the next of kin --Elvis Costello
by ShagBark on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 12:31:06 PM EST

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (none / 0)

That's exactly right.  We need someone who will show strength.


by Matt Stoller on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 12:32:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (3.00 / 2)

I haven't seen enough of Wes Clark in person. Can he smolder? Do a slow burn? Quote Churchill? Make Chris Wallace stammer?

I'll tell you who has all those outward markers of animus, our man Jim Webb.


Within weeks they'll be re-opening the shipyards And notifying the next of kin --Elvis Costello
by ShagBark on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 12:40:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (none / 0)

Yup.


by Matt Stoller on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 01:12:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (3.00 / 1)

I won't speak about the past, but paraphrased from the recent Hardball appearance.

MATTHEWS:  Very good.

Who`s the president of Mexico?

J. EDWARDS:  He`s the new president, he`s Calderon.

MATTHEWS:  Great.  Great.  And who is the...

J. EDWARDS:  By the way, this is not--this is ridiculous.

But go ahead.  


I know many question whether he is too "nice" after the last election as the feel good candidate, but I would just say - ask the Insurance giants he battled in the court room.  I think THAT is the John Edwards everyone faces today.


BlueNC - Progressive NC Politics
by Robert P on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 03:10:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I always LIKED Clark, but it wasn't until I saw... (none / 0)

him in person that I realized he was the real deal.

He has learned soooo much too, i really hope he does run.

-C.


by neutron on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 04:04:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (none / 0)

Clark is the only non-Dennis candidate who will proudly call himself a liberal plus he said if anyone impugned his patriotism," I'll beat the shit out of them."
What has John McCain done for veterans?
by abburdlen on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 11:22:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (none / 0)

He's made O'Reilly and Hannity look like idiots.


by catherineD on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 11:09:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The Democratic Party of old (3.00 / 3)

It used to be you didn't have to think long and hard to come up with examples of Democrats showing strength.

It was the premise of Truman's entire 1948 campaign againts the republican congress!

And FDR, when he needed to, which wasn't often, would take the GOP to the woodshed for their horrible failures.

It's rather sad that it's seen as too risky to take the GOP and the "economic royalists" on and call them out on their crap.

Edwards made one comment the other that showed that spark that gives me hope. On hardball, when Mathews brought up the old canard about card check resulting in worker intimidation by unions, Edwards said,
"I am for the card check. ... I don`t think we have a problem in America with big, multinational corporations being able to have their voice heard. Their voice is heard loud and clear."

THAT is why I like Edwards. I haven't heard that kind of talk for a long time from the party (although Gore did it in his "people vs. the powerful" speech that was roundly panned by DC).


by adamterando on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 12:59:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I Agree (3.00 / 1)

Exactly.  Edwards is with us.

Matt has a point though.  Wesley Clark has stood up for Michael Moore.

I like the bar fight test.  For now, I am leaning towards John Edwards because he promotes our agenda the most skillfully.  When push comes to shove, however, politics is a team sports.  The next president will need us.  Lets figure out who gets it.


by Hellmut on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 02:12:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (3.00 / 1)

Ive often thought that if Gore had just said something to the effect of: 'George, just because you can't do the math, doesnt mean its wrong'. He might very well have ended up with an un-stealable victory.

I guess that is the same sort of thing. When Gore had the opportunity to blow the thing wide open, he watched as the pitch sailed bye. FWIW, I don't think Gore would do that again, and if he runs, he has my support.


by benjamink on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 12:42:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (none / 0)

And that's why I'm not on the Gore bandwagon.  I'm not sure you can change your instincts.


by Matt Stoller on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 01:13:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (none / 0)

You can if you are pissed, and I think Gore is, or if you genuinely fear for the survival of the species, and that he surely does.  I doubt that he will run, but if he does, motivation to fight for us in bars will not be lacking.


by Arthurkc on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 01:26:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (3.00 / 1)

I don't know.

I really would like to see him in office, or in a campaign, anything where he has something at stake--you find out who someone really is when the pressure is on; and I'm not completely sure that I trust Gore yet.

I'll listen to him when he runs, but I find this bandwagoning around him really, really premature.


"You say the world has lost it's love I say embrace what it's made of" -Dar Williams
by Valatan on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 01:38:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I Agree (none / 0)

I think he's genuinely, deep down changed.  Much like RFK was after his brother was killed.  I never liked Gore before.  Never trusted him.  But I think he's done his time in the wilderness, and it's left him a changed man.

Still, I think it's very likely he won't run.  If you want to save the planet, then being President is sort of a distraction if you have potential impact that Gore does--particularly if he can help ensure he's got a Democratic President to help back him.


by Paul Rosenberg on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 02:30:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

-- "his time in the wilderness" (none / 0)

I think he's done his time in the wilderness

wonderful, that sticks in my heart.

That could be it.

There is a Shakspearian quality to the Gore story, it's almost too good to be true.

When the stolen election is held up against what could have been, the time lost, the lives lost.

". . . his time in the wilderness"

It has been said that elections are about one question one story and there is an answer on election day.

Great article Matt, great thread.
by inexile on Wed Feb 07, 2007 at 03:43:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Change (none / 0)

Your instincts change when you change, and I think Gore has.

But I think the Democratic party as a whole hasn't, and that's where we run into trouble.


TAKE BACK OUR PARTY: Democracy Bonds
by LiberalFromPA on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 01:50:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Instincts (none / 0)

You may or may not be able to change your instincts but you can learn to be a better leader and when to apply those leadership skills.  Saw it all the time in the military.  Screwing up and recognizing your screwups can make people tremendously strong.


by lisadawn82 on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 02:02:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (3.00 / 1)

But which were his instincts and which Al Gore is just an act?  Hopefully, the feisty guy is the real Al Gore.  And the wooden guy was just an act.


by ICantBelieve on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 08:08:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I like Edwards and I'm warming up to Clark (none / 0)

I liked Warner also and believe it or not I still like Kerry. I'll cry tears of happiness if Gore shows up for the fight. I'll take any of these five as a nominee and be happy.

I've got to look, listen and feel before I support any of these guys over the others in a primary.  

Just so they know, I'll be paying attention to their actions more than their words.


by lisadawn82 on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 12:37:45 PM EST

Commander-in-chief factor (none / 0)

Gore, Kerry and Clark stand a mile high in this important category.

We say, correctly, that Bush has made this a more dangerous world. Accordingly, we need to be able to make the voters feel safe. Iraq, I believe, will be less an issue than terrorism and security.

If McCain/Guiliani (or vice-versa) is the ticket, we  need to be competitive, probably by including one, or two, of the above three names on the ticket.


by stevehigh on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 12:49:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Let's not get too choosy (3.00 / 1)

A great, passionate, and perceptive post. I would be happy, no make that ecstatic, however, with eight more years of Clinton, either in the person of a Clinton or someone else. We need a Democratic president above all other considerations. If I could pick the ticket without worrying about the inconvenience of a campaign, I would probably choose Henry Waxman and Edward Kennedy.

But of course we do have to worry about a campaign.

Regardless of whom we nominate and (it is devoutly to be desired), elect, that person will be just about as faithful to liberal ideals as the movement requires of him or her.

All of the senators in the race voted against cloture during the Bankruptcy Bill fight except for Biden. It was an esp. difficult vote for senators from Delaware, New York and South Dakota. Of these candidates, none has been a more reliable vote for  lib/lab priorities like the Bankruptcy Vote than John Kerry.

BTW, the credit card companies had been pushing this bill for the entire eight years of the Clinton Administration and had been restrained by the threat of a veto.

So let's somebody in the White House who can use a ball-point pen. They're all pretty good votes; it's up to us provide them with the cover and motivation to stay that way.


by stevehigh on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 12:40:13 PM EST

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (none / 0)

There you go again being all mean and nasty on our Lord and Savior Obama! How dare you!!! He can walk on water and he has healed my old grandmother on stage! I saw it!

Snark aside, you are exactly right. The whole idea of running on "bipartisnaship" and "rising above the fray"is incredibly naive and offeres absolutely nothing in real world results. You can be completely sincere about being some nonpartisan, but you would have an easier time enacting a draft than getting Republicans to play nice nice with you.

We need a candidate who offeres us a clear, defined vision and choice. If 2006 taught us anything it is that clear choices and principled alternatives are what wins the day. "Unity08" only sounds good in cocktail parties and for the starstrucked, it is not a good message to win you an election. Offer a choice, offer differences, offer alternatives and be able to stand up to the right wing behemoth and be willing to change this country toward a progressive ideal. Getting along in the halls of power in DC is not what people are looking for. It was the candidates who offered this vision and who were able to mobilize people based on clear differences of principle that won, as you so eloquently stated was Reagan's case.


by need some wood on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 12:42:26 PM EST

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (3.00 / 1)

That's right.  Unity08 is an insider driven campaign to benefit Bloomberg, and it's similar in a lot of ways to how the Obama movement is working.  The Obama movement though is very real and has genuine popular support.


by Matt Stoller on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 01:14:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (3.00 / 1)

But there's way too much wishful thinking and projection going on there.  What would President Obama do on day one in the Oval Office? Inspire?

Noboby knows. Nobody can say.

Obama himself won't say.

You're gonna inspire for 4 years?  Make America proud of the handsome man who does weekly commercials for the NFL and the Oscars, NASCAR and Archer Daniels Midland?

Seriously, now.  The man wants us to be nice to each other and 'rise above the partisan fray'

That's not what we need right now.  We need to fight like hell to save this country.  The very very bad people who are destroying aren't going to give it back because we're polite or popular.

Nietzsche was right, extreme positions are not succeeded by moderate ones, but by contrary extreme positions.

If he wasn't so valuable in the Senate right now, Webb would be a great Veep.


by dereau on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 08:19:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (3.00 / 2)

Al Gore


by Destiny on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 12:45:03 PM EST

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (none / 0)


by Destiny on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 12:45:09 PM EST

Have the Dems got that sort of coalition? (none / 0)

My understanding is that the building blocks of the Reagan coalition were the Christian Right and fiscal conservatives, and the mortar was the lack of power both groups had suffered from.

In another dimension, there were the sectional elements to gee up - hence Philadelphia, MS - but not so much as to lose other elements, such as the remnants of the New England GOP.

My concern for 08 Dem prez candidates is that there is no such coalition easily discernable that they can mobilize by some gesture analogous to Reagan's.

In particular, whilst Reagan managed to show a bit of leg in the South without frightening off independents and GOP sensitive souls, the sort of constituencies that a Dem candidate might seek to goose are those that reinforce notions that the Dem party is a coalition of interest groups.

On issues affecting the whole nation (and therefore escaping the interest group tag), the repercussions of a bold statement or gesture may be too great for the benefit derived.

On UHC, for instance.

A stunt in Katrina-land might be attractive - but then, the fact that the place is (much of it) still a bomb site without millions marching in the streets suggest that the impact might be underwhelming.


by skeptic06 on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 12:46:21 PM EST

Re: Have the Dems got that sort of coalition? (none / 0)

A stunt in Katrina-land might be attractive - but then, the fact that the place is (much of it) still a bomb site without millions marching in the streets suggest that the impact might be underwhelming.

That's a good point, and sad.


by Matt Stoller on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 01:15:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It takes guts, but the issues are out there. (none / 0)

At the time, Reagan going to Mississippi, or calling out the "Evil Empire" or "start bombing in 5 minutes" or countless other "gaffes" were clucked at by the punditry.  But make no mistake that they were all quite effective in reaching the desired audience. (And in making the punditry look foolish.)

I think a bold, unconventional statement on universal health care, or outsourcing, or even alternative energy would send the message Matt is looking for, cause the appropriate gasps of concern from the pundits, and leave a lot of pissed-off middle class Americans nodding their heads.


by randompost on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 01:34:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It takes guts, but the issues are out there. (3.00 / 1)

Perhaps.

One question I have, however, is whether or not the media effect is symmetrical.

The media "clucked at" Reagan. But the same media tends to latch onto and hold onto for dear life anything that portrays a Democrat as "out of touch" with the medias's narraitve of where the center lies.


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by demondeac on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 01:52:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (none / 0)

Great post Matt.

Ideology and past actions in support of progressivism are the two metrics that matter. You aptly combine them into one metaphor, the bar fight. I think this is easy to understand and easy to support.


by Les Mots et les Choses on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 12:47:36 PM EST

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (3.00 / 1)

What I didn't get into with Reagan was his support for conservative causes like fighting the Panama Canal Treaty, and his political organization that meshed with Jesse Helms' Conservative Caucus.  I don't think that Edwards is really going to be the progressive Reagan because he doesn't have this track record, but he's in a better position than the others.


by Matt Stoller on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 01:16:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Bar (none / 0)

Let me add a couple points to this insightful article. PATCO (traffic controllers) employees deserved to be fired. They took an oath not to strike against the U.S. government and broke it. It does not really matter that the union leadership was republican- my thought are the same- if you cannot keep your word-don't give it.  I like the top candidates on the democratic field. Wes is my least favorite (him almost starting WW3 in Bosnia does not endear me) and Edwards is my very polished, but the field is solid, and yes, they need to be tested against each other. Finally, healthcare is the most imporatnt issue in the country and Wyden's plan looks very promising, we all should get behind it. Clinton tried and failed for many reasons, but, let's be clear, the media had something to do with it.      


by RAULC on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 12:49:54 PM EST

Strikes (none / 0)

What world are you living in?  The best strikes are short and illegal.


by Hellmut on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 02:16:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

All Teachers Strikes (none / 0)

are illegal.


by Arthurkc on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 02:20:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: All Teachers Strikes (none / 0)

Only true in certain states.


"You say the world has lost it's love I say embrace what it's made of" -Dar Williams
by Valatan on Wed Apr 25, 2007 at 07:32:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (none / 0)

   Wes Clark is not on our side. The guy voted for Ronald Reagan, who you bashed at the top of your column, twice. So much for liberal loyalty. With Wes Clark and John Edwards, I think they are pandering. Obama, by virtue of his roots and being African American, probably cares more than he lets on. The only guys on our side are Al Gore and Russ Feingold. But everyone said Russ can't win, and he's golden, so how the hell would Gore win?


by liberal1990 on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 12:50:53 PM EST

People Fucking Change (3.00 / 1)

Re: Clark--Jim Webb was Reagan's Scretary of Navy, remember???

Edwards spent his life battling big corporations on behalf of his clients.  So what evidence do you have he's pandering?

OTOH, this: "Obama, by virtue of his roots and being African American, probably cares more than he lets on." is a Clarence Thomas "don't let the evidence fool you" sort of argument.

Folks tend to forget that Reagan governed California much more pragmatically than his rhetoric lead on.  He raised taxes to balance the budget, for example.  If you'd judged him just by that, you'd have questioned his conservative credentials.  But you would have been wrong.  Evidence matters--and so does the right analytical framework.  You've presented neither.


by Paul Rosenberg on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 02:42:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: People Fucking Change (none / 0)

    Yeah and Clarence Thomas was, oh yeah, a Republican, I forgot. Obama is a Democrat, woops. As for John Edwards, the guy is a moderate, which is fine, but he is not a liberal, and being a trial lawyer is not in the same league as the savaged labor activist. As for Jim Webb, the guy served under Reagan, but given the little I know about his history, he was a working class Scot-Irish kid from Virginia, and he was into the military duty thing. Economically populist rhetoric definitely works with those folks, as does military pride, the culture wars, etc. As for Wes Clark, the guy has some very different credentials, including is overkill on the Kosovo issue.


by liberal1990 on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 07:04:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That's MY Argument! (3.00 / 1)

Me:

OTOH, this: "Obama, by virtue of his roots and being African American, probably cares more than he lets on." is a Clarence Thomas "don't let the evidence fool you" sort of argument.

liberal1990:

Yeah and Clarence Thomas was, oh yeah, a Republican, I forgot. Obama is a Democrat, woops.

That's my argument precisely. Obama is being promoted using an argument first employed to defend a conservative Republican.

An argument, which, of course, turned out to be totally false, so far as any outward action was concerned.


by Paul Rosenberg on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 05:55:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: People Fucking Change (none / 0)

Jim Webb, the guy served under Reagan, but given the little I know about his history, he was a working class Scot-Irish kid from Virginia, and he was into the military duty thing
Change the state, add a Jewish father, that's Wes Clark's background.
by WesDem on Thu Dec 21, 2006 at 07:55:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: People Fucking Change (none / 0)

Make that a dead Jewish father.
by WesDem on Thu Dec 21, 2006 at 07:58:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (3.00 / 1)

Wes Clark is not on our side??

WRONG!

I think you need to change your handle from liberal cause you ain't one if your mind is so closed that you're making decisions based on who someone voted for 25 years ago.

Wake up and smell the coffee.  Wes Clark is as liberal as they come.  Take a look at his position statements.  Listen to the man talk.  Watch the way he interacts with people.  

No wonder so many of the "liberals" have switched to using the word "progressive" instead.  Webster doesn't define progressive as open-minded, so then progressives are free to be as closed-minded as the right wing.


by ICantBelieve on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 08:13:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (none / 0)

A good post, and I have a lot to say about it -

You are absolutely and fundamentally correct, that, the "conservative wisdom" is now a full betrayal of the working and middle class people.  You see this in the bankruptcy bill, the giveaways to the wealthy, etc.

I would LIKE to think that Edwards is the guy for this fight - he definitely talks the language - but as you say, he hasn't walked the walk, only talked the talk.

I, personally, don't get the attraction to Wes Clark.  Whatever the qualities that he has - and he clearly has a lot, and I agree with your list - on an emotional level, those qualities do not translate to good emotional TV presence. That "likable on TV" presence, that Clinton, Reagan, Edwards, Obama, and even G.W. - to a small extent - have.  (Now "should" this matter?  Of course not, but I want to deal in the reality of the situation.)

That's why I am pulling for Edwards - but as you point out, he may betray, as Clinton did, and side with the elites.

Lastly, it is important to remember about this country, that fundamentally, it is temperamentally conservative - so the right strategy for we progressives is to pick and choose progressive principles that, simply function and work a hell of a lot better than the current status quo. In this vein, I also don't care if our progressive candidates and politicians speak in language that the populace understands. (While continuing to reframe progressive goals as the "sensible middle").

That's why I don't like the example of the Air Traffic Controllers.  

All unions are NOT created equal.  These were cream of the crop, upper middle class wage earners, that the whole country could ask "why are these guys greedy?"  There is a REASON that Reagan picked THAT fight.  

The particular fight NOW with the current push to unionize janitors, maids, etc - THAT is fundamentally a much more worthy goal - you broadcast the elements of THAT fight, any sane person who looks at the facts says "a person can't live on what those hotels are offering".

This is the same thing with health care reform - universal care - this is so clearly a good fight - it works in the real world, saves money, makes the country better - and we deserve a candidate that will fight that fight, and execute and implement something that simply works a HELL of lot better than the current mess.

But everything must be grounded in a simple tenet:   How will this make life better for middle class, working class, as well as either useful for a majority of business owners (not all, but most), or at least manage a smooth transition for business owners?

If we go after THOSE goals first, that meet that criteria, this builds a coalition for a larger progressive movement.


by jc on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 12:53:47 PM EST

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (none / 0)

All unions are NOT created equal.  These were cream of the crop, upper middle class wage earners, that the whole country could ask "why are these guys greedy?"  There is a REASON that Reagan picked THAT fight.  

You're right.  Reagan picked that fight because this union was weak and he could win it.

The rest of your comment is quite interesting as well.


by Matt Stoller on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 01:10:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (none / 0)

Reagan's attack on the Air Traffic Controllers was as you point out one more example of his impoverished leadership.
Every time I fly I just hope that there are enough ATCs monitoring the flights I'm on.
I always respond to alerts from the ATC. Those guys and gals need all the support we can get 'em from the congress so they can do their jobs.
I have never understood the affection some people in this country had for Reagon, a very foolish, dangerous president.
All working people are entitled to union representation if that will help establish an even playing field and mitigate the exploitation that's going on from unregulated globalization.

by eve on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 03:13:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (none / 0)

It seems that it is harder to advocate a bold progressive governmental policy like UHC because we have had NO major social legislation since 1965. And before that we had no major social legislation since 1935. Then inertia and fear of change sets in and people go with the devil they know. Even though it would be so much cheaper, simpler, and more affordable to just extend Medicare to everyone and be done with it.

Clinton tried major social legislation in '93/'94 and failed miserably. But there was public support for creating a universal health care system. Now the Dems have been spooked for 12 years and so there is no mutual agitation on the part of the Dems to push the idea and let people know that "hey this is possible" and then the accompanying agitation by the public to say "yes we want our government to spread out the risk and cover everyone".

This seems to me to be the greatest (or worst from my perspective) legacy of the conservative revolution. The GOP along with the media have convince America that government intervention into market failures in the private sector are no longer feasible. They have shut off that debate, and it's our job to make those options palatable and exciting once again.


by adamterando on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 01:27:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (none / 0)

Hillary Clinton was ahead of her time with universal healthcare and was not prepared for the swift boating that would come from phara, insurance, etc.
I think the majority of the people and perhaps even a large chunk of corporate interests would favor universal healthcare. The major obstacle remains pharma, insurance, etc. Clinton has hinted she may put it on the table again. It would be risky for her to bring it up in the election but she may take that risk.
BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 02:25:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (3.00 / 1)

If she ran on universal healthcare, suddenly, my feelings about her would change pretty dramatically.


"You say the world has lost it's love I say embrace what it's made of" -Dar Williams
by Valatan on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 02:29:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (none / 0)

Again, I have to throw up in my mouth a little at Stoller's unabashed aversion to, you know, facts.
You can call Obama or Clinton "moderate" all you want by looking at their voting records, but what about Edward's voting record? When he was in the Senate, he was more conservative then either Obama or Clinton. He did not walk the walk, now he's reinventing himself... but is that really good enough? Isnt this pandering? How does this guy get such a free pass over here?
Lastly, Clinton and Obama have not even announced yet, so we dont even know what their platform is. Lets wait to see how the primary shapes up before making assumptions about candidates.

by AC4508 on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 02:30:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (none / 0)

T.V. "presence"? That's what we're worried about? And in your opinion, Edwards has it, Clark doesn't? I couldn't disagree more.

In the words of Paul Simon: "One man's ceiling is another man's floor..."

Clark's forthrightness is his charisma. (at least for some of us)...and yes, his progressivism.

Ideology, mine: I can't in good conscience support any congressional who voted for bush's-IWR. Try as I will, I cannot "buy" that they were 'duped'.

It's gonna be along tough cycle isn't it?


by sybil disobedience on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 09:49:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (none / 0)

Yes, it is going to be a long tough cycle.

I can only say what I see - that is my perception - and I understand yours is different.  And again, "should" tv likeability matter?  I don't know, I just think it does.  Perception and likeability is one of the reasons Lieberman was elected.  Now, this is probably just luck, but that same perception of "likeability" is what made me think that Lieberman would win in the general.  I said so here, and everyone disagreed with me pretty thoroughly - but I ended up being correct, and all those who vehemently disagreed, incorrect.  Again, don't know if that is because I have sober judgment, or I just was a lucky guesser.

Luckily, I can have these conversations without rancor, in that I'm not wedded to any of the candidates myself, and think they all would do a pretty good job in office.  I just want the candidate that has the best chance of winning.


by jc on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 01:18:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (none / 0)

Granted, it matters on a superficial level, but "T.V. likeability" implies style-over-substance/form-without-functi on, does it not? Granted, I suppose "style" may depend on which voter-demographic you're looking at. (I have no personal desire to have a beer with Edwards.)

If we're truly worried about the 'likeability factor' for annointing a winner, ie; style-over-substance, I'd give it to the yet-untested Obama over Edwards anyway just on "style" and let's see what he pulls out of his grab-bag <<< risky-business, that...whereas former sitting-member of the Intel committee and co-sponsor w/Lieberman of the bush-IWR, remorseful-now-about-that-John?-Edwards, has already NOT watched our backs where it mattered <<< even riskier, imho

...guesses are like clocks aren't they? I've been right as often as not also (said without rancor)

Anyway, I thought we were talking about a bar-fight here. I agree with Matt Stoller, Wes Clark is the only potential candidate who, to date, has proved he will watch our backs.


by sybil disobedience on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 02:51:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (3.00 / 1)

When the 'Obama is wimp' meme comes down from the establishment...

This is happening already.  

Rush Limbaugh is among those churning out the "Obama is a wimp" rhetoric.

RUSH: (Maureen Dowd said to Obama,) "We're just trying to toughen you up." Here is what Barack Obama said. "You talked about my ears, and I just want to put you on notice: I'm very sensitive about -- What at I told them was, 'I was teased relentlessly when I was a kid about my big ears.'" Now, there are many aspects of this, folks, that we need to delve into and explore. For one thing, I mean you know me, if the guy's sensitive about his big ears, we need to give him a new name, like Dumbo. But that doesn't quite get it. How about Barack Obama Hussein Odumbo. Well, if he's sensitive -- stop to think about this. This is a man being lauded as the savior of the country, a presidential candidate ready to be anointed, and he can't handle being teased about his big ears? He goes out to Maureen Dowd and says, I am putting you on notice? Is that a threat? I want to put you on notice?

With the right guidance, it's easy to be persuaded from thinking "he's a nice guy" to "yeah, but he's a wimp," and this is an attack Obama's folks should already be gearing up for.

Good post, Matt.


by Laurin from SC on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 12:57:19 PM EST

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (none / 0)

Wow, I hadn't seen that.  Nice catch.


by Matt Stoller on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 01:07:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (none / 0)

Obama was joking. Who gives a shit what Rush says?

Obama planted a good seed with Dowd. She'll probably repay him for it. Hell, even her snide column comparing Obama and Hillary Clinton was relatively more friendly to Obama.


Visit DebateScoop
by demondeac on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 01:59:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (none / 0)

Who gives a shit what Rush says?

I certainly don't.  And I agree with you re: MoDo.

But I wouldn't underestimate Rush Limbaugh's role in dissipating the right wing's message.


by Laurin from SC on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 02:02:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (none / 0)

Just like Rush to assume a guy who is joking actually gives two shits about his ears.


by yitbos96bb on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 01:08:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (none / 0)

How's that hearing, Rush?  I heard that some forms of drug addiction have loss of hearing as a side effect.  What, you have to go in for another operation?


by Nina Katarina on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 02:13:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Reagan's Liberal Legacy (none / 0)

Reagan's Liberal Legacy

I don't think we can do it yet. We don't have the strength for it, we need to eat away from within for a little longer before we strike for the goal.


by MNPundit on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 01:02:15 PM EST

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (none / 0)

Started out so well and constructive and just turned into a typical Stoller rant.

So my question is WHAT IS THE BASIS OF YOU ASSERTION THAT OBAMA WOULD BE TOM DASCHLE?

The truth is you don't know what Obama would do... there isn't enough evidence on either side to say what he would do... NOW THAT may bother you... him being an unknown... and I could understand that.  To assume he will automatically do one thing, is just ridiculous.


by yitbos96bb on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 01:07:04 PM EST

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (3.00 / 1)

The truth is you don't know what Obama would do... there isn't enough evidence on either side to say what he would do... NOW THAT may bother you... him being an unknown... and I could understand that.  To assume he will automatically do one thing, is just ridiculous.

I think that's a fair criticism.  I'm assuming that his past record will track perfectly onto his Presidency, and that's not necessarily correct.  The campaign will in some ways show what kind of candidate he will be, which is why I'm watching him.

I'm just giving my framework for understanding these candidates and where they stand with me.


by Matt Stoller on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 01:09:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (none / 0)

But what past record are you tracking.  Its true that Obama has been very careful in the US Senate, picking up very good, but under the radar causes, and not stirring a debate.  (Causes he has pushed in the Senate - non-proliferation of conventional arms, Darfur, voting rights, ethics and accountability)

But, in the Illinois Senate, he pushed a harder left agenda, with things like universal healthcare, and other strongly liberal causes.

Obama is an unknown, but he generally tracks liberal.  Whether that means he'll change the fundamental governing process or not is the big unknown.  

And that's the thing.  While we can reasonably consider what a Hillary Presidency would look like, we can't be sure of John Edwards, or Wes Clark, or Barack Obama.  None of them have a particularly long or strongly established record.  Wes, to my knowledge, has never held political office.  Both Obama and Edwards have only served limited time in US Senate, as junior members of the minority party.  

It's too early to tell on anyone.  I have my gut feelings, and my gut tells me that Gore, Edwards, and Obama are my pretty much co-equal favorites, but a lot can happen between now and 2008.


by JJCPA on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 01:51:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama Has A History Of Bad-Mouthing Progressives (3.00 / 1)

That's what tells you he's not on our side in a bar-fight.

He's done it repeatedly--by repeating Jim Wallis's lies about the secular left, by repeating rightwing frames of liberal positions in the 60s, in order to present himself as "beyond both sides," by bashing anti-war activists as conspiracy theorists who think the Iraq War is only about oil, the list goes on and on.

Howard Dean was openly a moderate.  But he didn't bash liberal and progressive Dems.  Which is why they had no trouble embracing him because of his leadership on Iraq.  We were all a lot more clear-headed then.


by Paul Rosenberg on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 02:22:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Has A History Of Bad-Mouthing Progressiv (none / 0)

And amazingly, this refusal to bash the left resulted in Dean being labeled a Marxist by the MSM, and Kerry and Co. were more than willing to let this labelling happen.

We need to stand together, or shit like this will keep on happening.


"You say the world has lost it's love I say embrace what it's made of" -Dar Williams
by Valatan on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 02:24:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Has A History Of (3.00 / 1)

That argument is getting so tired.  He has also taken shots at the DLC, for not wanting to push UHC, out of fear of being labeled too far left.

I really don't want to get into this, so I'll just let a smarter man than I make the requisite point.

Archpundit:

Chris Bowers jumps on the claims that Obama is triangulating by taking everything he says and turning it into some sort of major speech instead of a decent answer in a town hall-but again, the quote is clipped.

We're now in a packed room at Eastern Illinois University. A woman stands up and tosses Obama what I assume she thinks is a bit of red meat. What, she asks, does the senator think of the pervasiveness of religion in public discourse these days? Obama doesn't take the bait.

"No one would say that Dr. King should leave his moral vision at the door before getting involved in public-policy debate," he answers. "He says, `All God's children.' `Black man and white man, Jew and Gentile, Protestant and Catholic.' He was speaking religiously. So we have to remember that not every mention of God is automatically threatening a theocracy.

Chris criticizes Obama's response because no one suggested it was threatening theocracy, but there is a simple point here-Bill Clinton's language was no less religious than George Bush's. In fact, one of Clinton's speechwriter's pointed this out while doing a book on Presidential religious rhetoric. So the premise of the question rests upon the notion that religious discourse has become far greater--which isn't true from anything I know. I take issue with how Bush uses religion, but the amount of discourse hasn't changed much if at all.

Chris also leaves off the paragraphs in the story that follow:

"On the other hand," he continues, "religious folks need to understand that separation of church and state isn't there just to protect the state from religion, but religion from the state." He points out that, historically speaking, the most ardent American supporters of the separation between church and state were Evangelicals--and Jefferson and Franklin. "Who were Deists, by the way," he adds, "but challenged all kinds of aspects of Christianity. They didn't even necessarily believe in the divinity of Christ, which is not something that gets talked about a lot."

Back in the car, he elaborates on the kinds of themes he tries to communicate to his constituents. "To me, the issue is not are you centrist or are you liberal," he says. "The issue to me is, Is what you're proposing going to work? Can you build a working coalition to make the lives of people better? And if it can work, you should support it whether it's centrist, conservative, or liberal."

What's interesting about the complaints about Obama supposedly triangulating is that each example is taken from speeches or venues that are not soundbite based, but actually thoughtful statements and points in a larger context of a speech. The questioner at this venue suggested by the very premise of the question that religious rhetoric is increasing and there is too much, but the response isn't one of attacking the woman, but putting religious rhetoric in context of history and then moving from rhetoric to problems of religious entanglement with government-one in which he strongly supports the separation of church and state.

more?
Archpundit again:

Fisking is a stupid process that right wing bloggers have mistakenly thought meant refuting an argument. Big Tent Democrat does it to Obama's speech and makes some rather bizarre claims.

One of my favorites is this:

But Mr. Keyes implicit accusation that I was not a true Christian nagged at me, and I was also aware that my answer didn't adequately address the role my faith has in guiding my own values and beliefs.

My dilemma was by no means unique. In a way, it reflected the broader debate we've been having in this country for the last thirty years over the role of religion in politics.

For some time now, there has been plenty of talk among pundits and pollsters that the political divide in this country has fallen sharply along religious lines. Indeed, the single biggest "gap" in party affiliation among white Americans today is not between men and women, or those who reside in so-called Red States and those who reside in Blue, but between those who attend church regularly and those who don't.

This of course is a red herring and Obama well knows it - the biggest political divide is between black and white voters. Why no discussion of that?

Among white voters... If somehow Obama is supposed to discuss the white/black issue in every sentence perhaps that's an issue, but arguing that Obama never talks about race is a bit silly.

Mr. Obama says he's a Christian, he would say, and yet he supports a lifestyle that the Bible calls an abomination.

Mr. Obama says he's a Christian, but supports the destruction of innocent and sacred life.

What would my supporters have me say? That a literalist reading of the Bible was folly? That Mr. Keyes, a Roman Catholic, should ignore the teachings of the Pope?

Personally, I would have Obama say what was in his heart. That he disagrees with Keyes' extremist views whether the are in accord with the Pope or not. But Obama did not:

And he does. You know, later in the speech.

I think that we should put more of our tax dollars into educating poor girls and boys. I think that the work that Marian Wright Edelman has done all her life is absolutely how we should prioritize our resources in the wealthiest nation on earth. I also think that we should give them the information about contraception that can prevent unwanted pregnancies, lower abortion rates, and help assure that that every child is loved and cherished.

But, you know, my Bible tells me that if we train a child in the way he should go, when he is old he will not turn from it. So I think faith and guidance can help fortify a young woman's sense of self, a young man's sense of responsibility, and a sense of reverence that all young people should have for the act of sexual intimacy.

Insinuating that Obama didn't speak to what he believed when he does is simply dishonest. Cutting the speech to ignore when Obama pointed out his position is even more dishonest.

Conservative leaders, from Falwell and Robertson to Karl Rove and Ralph Reed, have been all too happy to exploit this gap, consistently reminding evangelical Christians that Democrats disrespect their values and dislike their Church, while suggesting to the rest of the country that religious Americans care only about issues like abortion and gay marriage; school prayer and intelligent design.

I assume this was an unfortunate turn of phrase by Obama as it is false that Democrats disrespect the values of evangelical Christians.

Democrats, for the most part, have taken the bait. At best, we may try to avoid the conversation about religious values altogether, fearful of offending anyone and claiming that - regardless of our personal beliefs - constitutional principles tie our hands. At worst, some liberals dismiss religion in the public square as inherently irrational or intolerant, insisting on a caricature of religious Americans that paints them as fanatical, or thinking that the very word "Christian" describes one's political opponents, not people of faith.

These are utterly false Roght Wing strawmen as described by Chris Bowers. It was very wrong of Obama to embrace these falsehoods.

Like being personally against abortion, but the Constitution ties one hands. I can think of several Democratic candidates who say exactly that sort of thing. Like John Kerry. He framed it as something he was against, but that civil society needed rules to allow such things. Instead of having a value debate about safe, legal, and rare abortion, the debate is one about how we all hate it, but it's a Constitutional issue. It shouldn't be one only about the Constitution, it should be about how values and morality insist upon choice and why different moral judgments made by secular or Christians who are not right wing are valid moral positions.

There are people who argue that religion doesn't belong in the public sphere. And when you describe the position as at worst--it's not saying that's a mainstream position, it's saying it's a position held by some liberals. Having come out of talks where people criticize right wing fundamentalists as Christians, that's true. It is a problem on the left that many people cannot distinguish between different forms of Christianity and there are stereotypes of what a Christian is.

And it's an odd complaint given many of the progressive movements in the United States are based on Christianity including abolition, peace, civil rights, and abolition of the death penalty. But it is a complaint that is not uncommon when someone brings up religious values. That doesn't mean it's the majority left position, but it is a significant position.

Because when we ignore the debate about what it means to be a good Christian or Muslim or Jew; when we discuss religion only in the negative sense of where or how it should not be practiced, rather than in the positive sense of what it tells us about our obligations towards one another; when we shy away from religious venues and religious broadcasts because we assume that we will be unwelcome - others will fill the vacuum, those with the most insular views of faith, or those who cynically use religion to justify partisan ends.

Of whom does Obama speak here? What Democratic politician is Obama referring to? This is yet another false strawman.

Okay, how many Democratic politicians ask for equal time when their opponents show up on religious radio? The radio station doesn't have to give it, but it will. I know it was quite the exception when Durbin demanded it on Chicago's WYLL and he showed up and didn't concede the venue. Having listened to a number of right wing religious stations, that is truly uncommon. Hell, most Democrats have never listened to evangelical radio to understand the messages out there.

When the debate is about whether school prayer can take place or about intelligent design and those issues represent religion, it does define religion negatively and that's often done. Debate about religious values isn't only about tolerance in civil society that many make it out to be. It is also about alleviating poverty and treating the poorest amongst us with kindness and providing opportunity. Liberals do avoid this in many instances-think about debates over poverty or education where the debate is about the benefits to the larger society. Fine, but there is a moral reason to support such programs beyond simply its benefit to the whole society and liberals are generally bad at making those arguments.

Our failure as progressives to tap into the moral underpinnings of the nation is not just rhetorical. Our fear of getting "preachy" may also lead us to discount the role that values and culture play in some of our most urgent social problems.

What a crock. Obama assumes moral underpinnings are all faith vased. This is simply offensive and I strongly condemn Obama for saying so. It is an outrageous thing to have said.

This is my favorite part though. After saying that Obama is playing up a strawman in saying that there is an aversion to religion from liberals and Democrats, BTD demonstrates that aversion. How? By saying that Obama assumes all moral underpinnings are faith based when Obama doesn't say that.

For example, high rates of teenage pregnancy is a huge moral issue for those who are secular or religious and underpinnings for those beliefs. Both secular and religious people can get preachy about the issue by pointing out the importance of values and culture. It is not only those who have faith who rely on values and culture. The problem is that all too often liberal politicians don't talk about the problem in the culture instead relying only upon interventions while conservative politicians only talk about the culture and not interventions. Most Americans understand teenagers are going to have sex and they understand two things. First, there are parts of our culture that encourage irresponsible sex at young ages and second, that intervening in the lives of those kids through sex education and access to health care professionals can reduce the problem of unwanted teenage pregnancies. Obama is explicitly suggesting just this sort of model later in the text of the speech. How much later? Starting in the next paragraph.

After all, the problems of poverty and racism, the uninsured and the unemployed, are not simply technical problems in search of the perfect ten point plan. They are rooted in both societal indifference and individual callousness - in the imperfections of man.

Solving these problems will require changes in government policy, but it will also require changes in hearts and a change in minds. I believe in keeping guns out of our inner cities, and that our leaders must say so in the face of the gun manufacturers' lobby - but I also believe that when a gang-banger shoots indiscriminately into a crowd because he feels somebody disrespected him, we've got a moral problem. There's a hole in that young man's heart - a hole that the government alone cannot fix.

I believe in vigorous enforcement of our non-discrimination laws. But I also believe that a transformation of conscience and a genuine commitment to diversity on the part of the nation's CEOs could bring about quicker results than a battalion of lawyers. They have more lawyers than us anyway.

I think that we should put more of our tax dollars into educating poor girls and boys. I think that the work that Marian Wright Edelman has done all her life is absolutely how we should prioritize our resources in the wealthiest nation on earth. I also think that we should give them the information about contraception that can prevent unwanted pregnancies, lower abortion rates, and help assure that that every child is loved and cherished.

But, you know, my Bible tells me that if we train a child in the way he should go, when he is old he will not turn from it. So I think faith and guidance can help fortify a young woman's sense of self, a young man's sense of responsibility, and a sense of reverence that all young people should have for the act of sexual intimacy.

If one follows BTD's comments, one should only speak in sentences and not paragraphs. While I think Democrats often forget that reporters tend to take sentences from paragraphs and distort their meaning, the real problem is when bloggers help the media do that.

As I said when he made the speech, the speech isn't anything like what many have reported it. It's a challenge to reshape and reframe the debate from one liberal versus conservative which isn't terribly compelling other than to partisans, but to a debate about the values each party trumpets and how the Democratic values fit with the core values of the country.

To take issue with Obama in this case is to miss what he is saying. Democrats have ceded the debate to Republicans on matters of faith even though Democratic policies are rooted in core American values. All he wants Democrats to do is point that out instead of relying on John Kerryish crap that gets you saying things like I was for it before I was against it.

Talk like real people do and put it terms of their lives and those lives are often influenced by faith so why shouldn't Democrats' language do the same.

You'll have to visit http://www.archpundit.com for the properly blockquoted items, but hopefully this can be followed.


by JJCPA on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 02:52:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Calling An Argument 'Tired' Doesn't Cut It (3.00 / 1)

Nor do any of the arguments you've quoted.

The bottom line is quite simple: GOP leaders don't attack their base, no matter how crazy it gets.  And they certainly don't use liberal-generated frames in doing so.

But Obama does attack the Dems' liberal base, and he does so using conservative-generated frames.

It really doesn't matter what kind of excuse you want to make for this behavior.  All that amounts to is cover for Obama, while he continues to attack the base.

And he hasn't just done this to attack secular liberals (and moderates, for that matter).  He's done it to attack the anti-war movement as well.  It's part of his repertoire.  No Republican plays those sorts of games attacking their base.  But it seems to be required for a Democrat to do so.  Clinton did it with Sister Souljah, and Obama is just doing the same.

Two years after Clinton did it, the Democrats lost a House majority they'd held for 40 years. Will Obama's rhetoric be equally effective?

The bottom line here is really simple:  instead of lecturing Democrats about how they should be talking about faith, Obama should just do it himself. Show, don't tell. Don't lecture other people in a way the right wing can use against other Democrats.  Use your skills directly against the right wing, and others will follow.  It's just that simple.

What's more, the gratuitous slap at John Kerry is not only uncalled for, it's ignorant. Back in June and early July 2004, before he totally surrendered to the Versailles advisors, Kerry was talking very effectively about faith and values.  And he was noticeably up in the polls--just a few points, but enough to make some upper Southern states into battlegrounds, which is to say, enough to win quite comfortably.

The divide wasn't between secular and religious rhetoric.  It was between speaking from his heart while attacking Bush, and triangulating his ass off.  Obama thinks that, unlike Kerry, he can triangulate his ass off and still win... so long as he talks about religion.

Needless to say, Martin Luther King is spinning in his grave.


by Paul Rosenberg on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 04:52:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

oh come on (none / 0)

It's you that distort the 60's with your apparent adoration of everything the radicals said and did. There were a lot of leftist radicals with bad arguments and ideas back then. When Obama is distancing himself from the fringe of the 60's and the secularist warriors of today he is doing the right thing. What he hates more than anything else seems to be dogmatism, fringe left and fringe right. I am with him on that one.


The history of the left is a history of purists betraying the progressive movement so that they can feel good about their righteous selves.
by Populism2008 on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 03:29:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: oh come on (none / 0)

Why is it necessary to distance oneself from the Weather Underground?  When is the last time that you heard anyone endorsing views in support of them or groups like them?


"You say the world has lost it's love I say embrace what it's made of" -Dar Williams
by Valatan on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 05:21:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Precisely! (3.00 / 1)

This is just like Spiro Agnew equating George McGovern--a decorated WWII bomber pilot who flew over 40 missions--with the Weather Underground.

And now we're supposed to believe that Spiro Agnew-style rhetoric is progressive, because it comes from Barak Obama???


by Paul Rosenberg on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 05:41:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Bullshit! That's Not The Argument At All (none / 0)

I was responding to a very specific distortion of the record.  And Obama was framing it not in terms of some long-forgotten extremist position (such as, for instnace, the Black Panthers inventing the school lunch program--there's extremism for you!).

Quite the opposite.  Obama was framing it in terms of these being dominant (not fringe) positions that boomer politics was keeping alive to this day--and that he represented getting beyond all that.  This is purely and simply false on his part.  The right may get its social policy perscriptions from folks with no professional qualifications on everything from birth control to invading Iraq, but the left is deeply reality-based on just about any issue you can throw a stick at.

You're now trying to totally change the subject into one of vague charges about political fringes 40 years ago.  Well, I'm sorry, but whatever the merits of that argument are, that really has nothing to do with what Obama was saying, and why I was criticizing it.

p.s. Btw, the extreme right then was the KKK, and the extreme left was SNCC, until the Black Panthers came along. If you want to lump them together as being dogmatic mirror images of one another, go right ahead. But don't think you'll win a lot of arguments by doing so. At least not around here.


by Paul Rosenberg on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 05:42:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (none / 0)

I would differ in that Wes Clark has a very long, very strongly-established record (not elected political office, but NATO Supreme Allied Commander is a highly political post, with Head of State status). And here is a crucial point: in that long career, he has absolutely, strikingly excelled at each level. Go to Wespac at http://securingamerica.com/ and read the jaw-dropping career highlights and lists of decorations, civilian and military honors, both domestic and international (including many knighthoods). Wouldn't it be wonderful to have someone who absolutely excels, for a tremendous change?


by Larry in KC on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 02:57:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (none / 0)

Exactly. Another baseless Stoller rant.


by AaronE on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 01:16:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (none / 0)

This post has all the belligerence and self righteousness of an anti-abortion/gay bashing evangelical. Matt, you're so into yourself and your us-vs.-them narrative, its maddening. You seek unproductive ideological purity. you're no better than republicans who throw mccain under the bus because of his percieved moderate record.

First off, there was no hope that Clinton would signal the end of the boomer 1960's chatter-- he was the BEGINNING of the boomer 1960's crap. What he was supposed to be was an end to old-school liberal taxing and spending, and for better or worse, he was.

Wes Clark is your great progressive? He voted for Reagan and joined the party, oh, 3 years ago.

Obama is not a moderate, he only talks like one. Look at his staunchly liberal voting record.

You say Clinton and his small crew thought they had all the answers... but I think you got it backwards.


by AaronE on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 01:15:32 PM EST

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (3.00 / 1)

Well I can't say that your tone is particularly considerate, but I think you're right that I am more of an analogue to the conservative ideologues of the 1970s and the current NRA leaders than the technocratic liberals of Common Cause and NARAL.

I do believe that it's important to attack and eliminate certain power centers in order to achieve progressive ends.


by Matt Stoller on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 01:19:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Wait a Minute . . . (3.00 / 1)

All Matt is asking for is that the Democratic candidate joins the grassroots.  That's how you exercise power to promote progressive policy.  Beyond that Matt's post is clear in that he is willing to accomodate a broad tent.  

We are willing to celebrate conservatives like Jim Webb because we value ideological diversity.  We trust Webb because he demonstrated that he fights for American values: democracy, liberty, and equality.

That's our agenda.  It's a broad agenda that can accomodate a wide variety of interests.  

That's why we can win with the people and do not need to privilege money.  Our candidate needs to understand that.  Otherwise he or she will lose or govern with a Ronald Reagan agenda.  

A candidate who contributes to the movement, on the other hand, will not only win office but define America's agenda.  That's the real price.


by Hellmut on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 02:33:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wait a Minute . . . (none / 0)

A candidate who contributes to the movement, on the other hand, will not only win office but define America's agenda.  That's the real price.

That's right.  Reagan made the conservative movement America's movement.  That's how he unified the country.


by Matt Stoller on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 03:00:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wait a Minute . . . (none / 0)

Exactly!  The Progressive Movement is the future of America - We Need To Progress has to be some sort of refrain.


by dereau on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 09:18:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (none / 0)

Just don't hold your vote hostage. Obama proves that you can win by talking to the center, regardless of your voting record.

Bill Clinton won by walking and talking a centrist path. Obama is much more exciting: talk like a centrist, vote like a liberal.

I understand your fear that Obama is too worried with getting along, but with the credibility that his style affords him, he could get a lot more done.


by AaronE on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 02:35:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (3.00 / 1)

Just don't hold your vote hostage. Obama proves that you can win by talking to the center, regardless of your voting record.

Obama proves that you can get Media attention by talking to the center if you have immense charisma.  He does not yet prove that you can win doing so.


by Matt Stoller on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 03:01:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (none / 0)

got me there, but I just read the book "stealth democracy," so I'm inclined to think you can vote nearly any way you want to if you talk to the center and you're empathetic.


by AaronE on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 05:15:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

People Said The Same About Martin Luther King (3.00 / 2)

He, too, was attacked for being a mirror image of the racists he fought against.

Then, along came Malcom X.

Look, there is just no way around it.  Evil motherfuckers do not just go away by singing "Kumbayah."

I happen to like "Kumbayah."  But I also know it's for the campfire, after the battle is fought and won.

p.s.  Obama's voting record is not "staunchly liberal." It's staunchly moderate liberal. 20th among 46 Dems in the 109th Congress.  Clinton was tied for 23rd.  Not a whole lot of daylight between them.


by Paul Rosenberg on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 02:11:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (3.00 / 1)

Jim Webb worked for Reagan, yet I'm happy to have him in the Senate and I think he'll be a solid vote on many progressive issues.

Clark didn't leave the Republican party, it left him.  Our job as Democrats is to pick those people up that the Rs have 'left behind'.  Not by being Republican lite, but by being strong and principled in who we are.


by Nina Katarina on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 02:15:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (none / 0)

oh jaysys...Wes Clark never belonged to the Republican Party.


by sybil disobedience on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 09:57:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (3.00 / 3)

STOP IT!
I'm fucking sick to death of this smear shit against Wes Clark.

The man is a liberal.  When everyone else was hiding from the word, he was out there screaming it.

Anyone who doesn't know how liberal Wes Clark is just plain doesn't know him.  All you have to do is talk to the man and you'll know.  Everything he says and does oozes the mental model we all live by.

I really don't give a rats ass who Wes Clark voted for in 1980.  In 2002, he testified against the Iraq War.  In 2004, he stood up for Michael Moore, for dissent, and for the word LIBERAL.  And in 2006, he worked his ass off stumping for Democratic candidates all across this country.    


by ICantBelieve on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 08:19:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Interesting Distinction (none / 0)

I really like the way you put it; who will stand up for you in a bar fight?

I am, as of yet, undecided on who to support.  This is certainly something I will ponder going forward.

Thanks


Blue Hampshire, a progressive online community for the Granite State.
by nhcollegedem on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 01:21:50 PM EST

Darwinian Survival of Candidates' Early Messaging (3.00 / 2)

The early messaging from the various candidates is kind of important for fixing their image in the public mind. However, they don't really know which ideas or issues will be front and center once we get to the primary and general seasons.

So Edwards talks about helping the lower half, Gore about the crisis of the Global Warmin, Clark and Richardson speak strongly about the war, Clinton tries to emphasize her establishment credentials and to innoculate herself from being labeled soft on terror, etc.

Of all the early positioning, I like Edwards focus on populism the best. First because I agree on moral or philosophical grounds. It speaks to the traditional Democratic base, it speaks to the broader populace that is left behind on health, insurance, retirement, jobs, etc, and it can be used as a gentle persuasion or handy weapon in a bar fight.

But populist rhetoric is also useful because it is flexible. It can track changes in public awareness, or translated to different audiences, issues, specific policies or talking points. Reagan was a populist, and knew how to promise hope to segments of the populace that would never agree with his actual politics.

As an issue, the Iraq war is a battle-axe, but not very adaptable

I'm pretty sure that all the king's men can't put Humpty Dumpty won't be put back together again. But, Iraq policy is directed (if not managed) by the Bushies. Who knows, maybe the double-down enables a partition of Iraq and the US retreats to Bagdad and Kurdistan. Or maybe Bush goes up to 200,000 for 18 months in order to drop back down to 100,000 for the election. Or maybe they sabotage Iranian oil fields during the primary season and all the candidates scurry for war rhetoric.

The point is that you can't guess the moves in a fixed chess game when you aren't the player. You know that McCain was tipped off about the troop increases ahead of time, so you can anticipate that Bush policy coordinates with the approved candidate.


There's more of us than there is of them.
by MetaData on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 01:26:35 PM EST

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (none / 0)

Nice post Matt.  I would go for a rugby metaphor instead of the bar fight one.  My blog Ruck Pad is named for a phase of play called a ruck.  Once someone is tackled they have to release the ball immediately and roll away.  Then anyone can have at it.  Often this turns into something of a shoving match over top of the ball and a number of bodies on the ground.  It is perfectly legal and acceptable to step on them and rake with your cleats backward to get the ball out of the mess.  I want a candidate who is willing to rake the body and get those cheaters out of there so we can have a nice clean ball to play with.

For what I mean see this YouTube clip and watch to end.


by juls on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 01:29:29 PM EST

see also: twofer strategies (3.00 / 2)

this post has something in common with ezra klein's piece about two-fer strategies at the american prospect (http://www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?sect ion=root&name=ViewPrint&articleI d=12236).  the bar-fight primary is won by the candidate who stands up for the kind of policies klein is describing (policies which are good for the public interest and also good for core democratic constituencies), and, complementary to that, policies which are good for the public interest and bad for republican constitutencies, such as re-establishing the fairness doctrine, breaking up media monopolies, squashing private school voucher programs, cracking down on those who use the platform of the u.s. army to evangelize, etc.

i agree with your assessment of who is currently winning the bar-fight primary.  at the intersection of "most likely to win" and "winner of the bar-fight primary" is, indeed, john edwards.  it'd be wonderful to see obama emerge to contend with edwards for this title, but, alas, he seems captivated by the prospect of winning jim wallis's vote.  sigh.


Strengthening the progressive movement through liberal entrepreneurship http://www.plantingliberally.org
by Shai Sachs on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 01:33:10 PM EST

Oh Yeah! (3.00 / 1)

Jim Wallis. Tell me about it!

I, too, would love nothing better than to see Obama want to win the bar fight primary.

Instead, he's in the finger-wagging primary.


by Paul Rosenberg on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 02:01:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh Yeah! (none / 0)

in all fairness, if obama wins the crucial Jim Wallis vote, he may well win the also-crucial Michael Lerner vote.

let's see, that makes two votes... how many do we need to win again?

i think obama, and hillary to an even sharper extent, are caught up in the post-2004 values voter narrative.  unfortunately, the loudest voices which are (or rather, appear to be on) the left are people like lerner and wallis, who are wholesale "pox-on-both houses" type of figures.  certainly an improvement over people like falwell and so on, but painfully naive as well.

i'd like to see a stalwart religious figure who is a wholesale partisan liberal emerge to steal thunder from the wallis/lerner school.  that would (hopefully) give obama an opportunity to cozy up to someone who is both an outspoken religious leader and someone who is a partisan liberal.


Strengthening the progressive movement through liberal entrepreneurship http://www.plantingliberally.org
by Shai Sachs on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 03:10:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Cynical, Not Naive (none / 0)

unfortunately, the loudest voices which are (or rather, appear to be on) the left are people like lerner and wallis, who are wholesale "pox-on-both houses" type of figures.  certainly an improvement over people like falwell and so on, but painfully naive as well.
Lerner, at least, I've seen first hand.  His intellectual dishonesty knows no bounds.  He's so far gone, it pains me when he's right, not when he's wrong.  And top-down does not even begin to describe him.  Top-top is more like it.


by Paul Rosenberg on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 03:30:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Cynical, Not Naive (none / 0)

regardless, pox-on-both-houses-itis is a disease which seems to be going around religious left circles these days, whether the person/organization is really a true leftist or just considered to be one.  my understanding is that it infects we believe ohio, and i've even see it creeping into street prophets from time to time.

i don't think religious folks should be in the pocket of the democratic party, but i think they should at least call 'em as they are (conservatives are poisoning the well in ways liberals would never dream of), without the useless and usually incorrect swipes at democrats.  street prophets is improving measurably on this score of late, with pastor dan's regular jeremiads against The Great Secular Fundamentalist Straw Man.  but there's quite a way to go, in my mind.

i think the shining bright spot has to be the Industrial Areas Foundation, most of whose chapters (reportedly) are non-partisan but make no bones about showing their members which officials are on their side, and which aren't.


Strengthening the progressive movement through liberal entrepreneurship http://www.plantingliberally.org
by Shai Sachs on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 04:16:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: see also: twofer strategies (none / 0)

I read the Proospect article. Obama is on board with the unions part of the two-fer strategy, as well as immigration reform and paygo.

How many Reaganesque signals must a candidate send before the massage is received that Obama is a progressive liberal?


Visit DebateScoop
by demondeac on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 03:30:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

A Voting Record Would Be Nice (3.00 / 1)

Obama's 20th of 46 in the 109th Congress. Slightly edging Clinton, who's tied for 23red. OTOH, Durbin is #2.  


by Paul Rosenberg on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 03:37:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Voting Record Would Be Nice (none / 0)

Why move the goalpost?

My response was to the person's mentioning the Prospect article.

Stoller's entire post is premised on the notion that a candidate just has to properly signal willingness to fight as did Reagan.

Now the measure is some scorecard?


Visit DebateScoop
by demondeac on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 04:32:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm Just Saying (none / 0)

that before you going throwing any game-winning touchdowns, it would be nice if you suit up for practice.

That's all.


by Paul Rosenberg on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 05:44:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (none / 0)

Brilliant post.

And this is why I wanted Russ Feingold--he is the only one that truly had his back up against the wall in the pressure churner, and stood his effing ground.  If anyone is with us, Russ is.  And the analysis is spot on--Clark is on our side, maybe Edwards is, and perhaps Gore might have finally completely come around


"You say the world has lost it's love I say embrace what it's made of" -Dar Williams
by Valatan on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 01:33:51 PM EST

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (none / 0)

Again, like with Gore, that's why he got netroots support.  He recognized and challenged institutional power.


by Matt Stoller on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 03:02:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Kucinich (none / 0)

you're forgetting the only candidate in the race to vote against the war and the patriot act....


Vote for a true progressive in November: Cynthia McKinney (GRN) for President!
by brooklyngreenie on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 03:19:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kucinich (none / 0)

I just really don't like him.  I don't trust his abortion 180 that happened exactly before he declared his candidacy, and I really was annoyed with the way that he spent more time complaining about not getting as much attention as dean than he did actually advocating his ideas.  


"You say the world has lost it's love I say embrace what it's made of" -Dar Williams
by Valatan on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 05:25:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (none / 0)

You keep up writing posts that good, I'll end up a Stollerite. :-)


Can It Happen Here?
by janinsanfran on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 01:51:48 PM EST

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (none / 0)

LOL


by Matt Stoller on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 02:05:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Best. Post. Ever. (3.00 / 3)

Well, at least (a) on the 2008 election.  Also (b) by Matt Stoller.

This really says it all, and says it in just the right terms.  Philadelphia, MS.  Bar fight.  Where's Osama?  And the rest?

I, too, feel that Clark is rock solid.  And that Edwards may eventually get there, but is not there yet.

But much more importantly, Matt has staked out the right framework for understanding what's at stake and why.

The primary mistake that Obamaphiles seem to make is mistaking elite compromise for concensus-building with people who could agree with us (a majority of self-identified conservatives support the welfare state, and have supported it since forever, a good chunk of them now want a quick exit from Iraq, etc.)

We can only be in a position for the later by crushing the lying hatemongers who lead the other side.


by Paul Rosenberg on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 01:58:28 PM EST

Re: Best. Post. Ever. (none / 0)

Thanks, Paul.


by Matt Stoller on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 02:05:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Best. Post. Ever. (3.00 / 2)

The primary mistake that Obamaphiles seem to make is mistaking elite compromise for concensus-building with people who could agree with us (a majority of self-identified conservatives support the welfare state, and have supported it since forever, a good chunk of them now want a quick exit from Iraq, etc.)

The primary mistake that Obamaphobes seem to make is mistaking consensus-building with people who could agree with us (a majority of self-identified conservatives support the welfare state, and have supported it since forever, a good chunk of them now want a quick exit from Iraq, etc.) for elite compromise.


Visit DebateScoop
by demondeac on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 02:08:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What I Meant Was (3.00 / 1)

People mistake what Obama is doing, for what he says--or at least strongly suggests--he is doing.


by Paul Rosenberg on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 02:14:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The proof is in the pudding (none / 0)

Eventually, Barack will either have to put up or shut up while he's campaigning for President.  If he's still running in September 2007, we'll know where he stands.  

Until then, he deserves a wary eye--he's not at the Feingold/Boxer level of trust just yet.  That's all right, he's early in his career, but he needs to show me, explicitly, where he stands; and he needs to do it while holding a national microphone.

It's too early for me to rule out anyone, except perhaps Ms. Clinton, but I intend to keep a wary eye out on all of these people, and I recommend that others do the same.


"You say the world has lost it's love I say embrace what it's made of" -Dar Williams
by Valatan on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 02:18:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Reagan and Philadelphia, Mississippi (none / 0)

     A small point, but Reagan didn't announce his candidacy in Philadelphia, Mississippi; he kicked off his fall campaign there.
     That tiny point aside, this is another great post by Matt. Thanks, Matt!
by Ron Thompson on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 02:06:47 PM EST

The PATCO Irony: They Backed Reagan in 1980 (none / 0)

And look what it got them.


by Phoenix Woman on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 02:27:56 PM EST

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (3.00 / 1)

Matt - very nice post, and it needed to be said (and needs to be repeated ad nauseum).

One thing I don't follow is this: why not include Kucinich in the group of barfightworthy candidates?

On all the defining issues, he's 100%.  Fair trade, the death penalty, three-strikes laws, drug rehabilitation vs. mandatory sentencing, privacy/PATRIOT ACT...  The list goes on and on.


Dennis Kucinich, Progressive Democrat for President in 2008
by hoose on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 02:42:15 PM EST

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (none / 0)

Except for abortion.


"You say the world has lost it's love I say embrace what it's made of" -Dar Williams
by Valatan on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 02:46:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Not So (none / 0)

Kucinich is pro-choice.


by Paul Rosenberg on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 03:03:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not So (none / 0)

He is now.  Until 2003, however, he was perhaps the most anti-abortion rights Democrat in congress, hence why objected to the claim that he was "100% with us" on that particular issue.  


"You say the world has lost it's love I say embrace what it's made of" -Dar Williams
by Valatan on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 05:11:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

So? (none / 0)

I am 100% opposed to Kucinich for President 2000.


by Paul Rosenberg on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 05:45:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So? (none / 0)

Ironic. The ultra ideological single-issue checked-off-all-the-boxes liberal in the race, just like you, and he's the one you find the least desirable.

100% wow.


by Jerome Armstrong on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 12:29:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So? (none / 0)

I don't think that's a particularly fair representation of Paul's ideology.  


by Matt Stoller on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 12:42:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Read The Date, Jerome! (none / 0)

Kucinich 2000.

This was a response to the earlier reference to his one-time anti-choice stand.


by Paul Rosenberg on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 05:35:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Read The Date, Jerome! (none / 0)

There was a big question-mark in my thought bubble until I re-read it. :)


Dennis Kucinich, Progressive Democrat for President in 2008
by hoose on Wed Dec 20, 2006 at 11:20:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Carpenters Say: Measure Twice, Cut Once (none / 0)

I say: Read twice, write once--at most.


by Paul Rosenberg on Wed Dec 20, 2006 at 06:15:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So? (none / 0)

I just find it a b it odd that he went from completely one way to completely the other way immediately prior to running for President as a progressive.  The cynic in me would question his sincerity in doing so.


"You say the world has lost it's love I say embrace what it's made of" -Dar Williams
by Valatan on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 09:31:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (none / 0)

This was the first ideological criticism I've heard about Kucinich, so I looked into it.  While his voting record's not impeccable on this issue, Planned Parenthood endorsed him this year, NARAL's given him a 100% for the last 2 years, and it it looks like he's been doing ok on this issue since 2003.


Dennis Kucinich, Progressive Democrat for President in 2008
by hoose on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 03:13:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Edwards is the best choice for 2008 (3.00 / 1)

for the people, the working people.


Check out the New Progressive Blog EENRBLOG
by dk2 on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 02:57:52 PM EST

Re: Edwards is the best choice for 2008 (3.00 / 1)

I agree that Edwards has spoken out on behalf of working people but Wes Clark has IMO articulated some of the most creative and progressive ideas to solve the plight of working people who have been struggling to make ends meet under the Republican thievings these last few years. Clark has  proposed some thoughtful ideas like having unions become centers for training, retraining and support for workers. He took the idea from his experience in the military. Instead of workers relying on their employers for retraining and insurance and the like, it could be centralized through unions and carried with workers from job to job. Wes Clark has also been a proponent of universal health care and an increase in the minimum wage and tax relief (no income tax for families earning up to $50,000). Wes Clark has also talked about reenergizing manufacturing to provide jobs. The type of manufacturing he talks about is for new technology for renewable sustainable energy as an engine of economic growth. No other candidate has had as comprehensive policy ideas for working people, IMO.


by eve on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 01:27:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I don't get it? Help, Matt (3.00 / 2)

Reagan signalled his racism by starting in MS. I get that. It was a signal. The barfights, though? They were after he was elected?

You say, "Reagan ran on goring liberals, blacks, union members, and gays.  He didn't do so overtly, but he spoke loud and clear if you were listening.  And then he governed with this awful mandate that the people had given him."

If you were listening, you say? Not overtly? I agree. He covered up the repugnant parts of his agenda with happy, feel good rhetoric. He was successful.

But we do not want one of our own to do that?

Maybe the problem is that the reading between the lines stuff is difficult, always subject to two opposite interpretations. When I read Obama I hear signals sent that he will be there for us. In speech after speech he argues for big government solutions to big problems and says the market cannot solve. He derided the "Ownership Society" as Social Darwinism at the AFSCME National Convention, and proposed a mix of CAFE and other regulations with government picking up health care costs in the auto industry.

These are just two examples from the last few months, but the thing is, he cannot back away from them. He is out there on his limb. We'll see whether or not he climbs back. But the signals are there.

It may be that I do not really get it. Maybe Reagan did not say as many things to hide his true intentions as I recall.


Visit DebateScoop
by demondeac on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 03:23:00 PM EST

scrappy little guy (none / 0)

Have you already written off the scrappy short guy with an attitude at the end of the bar, who might just clock you when you're not looking?  You know, the weird looking dude who now that Feingold has decided not to run is the only one in the race to have actually had the balls to vote against the War and the Patriot act?  I'm talking about Kucinich, of course.


Vote for a true progressive in November: Cynthia McKinney (GRN) for President!
by brooklyngreenie on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 03:27:08 PM EST

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (none / 0)

The perfect metaphor for the testosterone-impaired. Whoever looks for a fight, will surely find one.

Personally, I'd love to see our Democratic president achieve progressive objectives without being reduced to throwing a punch.  Brains over brawn, and all of that...


by lapis on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 03:51:46 PM EST

And I'd Like The Sea To Turn To Lemonade, But... (3.00 / 1)

A major reason our country has driven off the road and over a cliff these last two-three decades is that liberals have wanted to play nice, and avoid a fight with a heard of gorillas on steroids.

We didn't impeach Reagan or Bush over Iran/Contra, and they repaid us by impeaching Clinton over nothing.  The same dynamic played out again and again over the full range of issues and controversies.

Fool me once, shame on you, fool me 10,000 times, shame on me, as they say they say in Timbuk4.


by Paul Rosenberg on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 04:16:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (none / 0)

I can't wait this long (till 2012), but if you want a bar fight buy, there's none better than Elliot Spitzer. He's the guy.


by Coral on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 04:00:55 PM EST

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (none / 0)

Wesley Clark seems like a good man, but:
(1) his lack of electoral success thusfar is not exactly offset by, say, the invasion of Normandy; and
(2) as I recall, he supported that ridiculous anti-flagburning amendment in 2004; and
(3) I did not hear of any subsequent disavowal thereof.
by henderstock on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 04:03:45 PM EST

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (none / 0)

Well, you're pretty much right on all these points.  Wes did ok in the 2004 primary--better than many people who ran.  But he got in too late and he stumbled out of the gate.  Neither of those things would happen in 2008.  So, even though you are right about #1, it may not be that significant for 2008.

#2 and #3. You're right.  No doubt about it.  BUT, it's not a slippery slope with Wes Clark.  99.999% of people who are against flag burning are against dissent.  Wes Clark was screaming Thomas Jefferson's "Dissent is the highest form of patriotism" quote all through 2004.  He really believes that.  He's just got this quirk about the flag.  I watched him do the Pledge of Alligiance in person once and it had even ME choked up.  He spent his whole life defending that flag.  He saw his buddies buried under that flag.  He repelled down a cliff to try to save one of those buddies.  There are so many millions and millions and millions of other ways to dissent.  He just thinks there can be that one exception, sort of like not being allowed to yell FIRE! in a crowded theater.  But, it's not exactly like yelling FIRE!, so Wes is wrong.  But compared to so many things he's right on, all of his supporters (and just about 100% of his supporters think he's wrong) let this one go.  Incidentally, he wouldn't "support" an amendment.  All other things being equal, he'd want it there.  But it's no where near important enough to be dealt with at this point.  He'd never bring it up.


by ICantBelieve on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 08:30:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (none / 0)

Well, I've heard Wes Clark address the flag amendment since then as follows. He has said that the flag represents the men and women who have fought and in some cases died for their country and he has great respect for their service but at the same time he recognizes that the flag really represents the constitutional guarantees including the principle of free speech.
So I believe he very well understands the position of those of us who are opposed to the flag burning amendment and respects that position.


by eve on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 01:36:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Richardson called out McCain (none / 0)

And since governors have a better shot at being elected president than senators, respect must be paid.


This administration sucks.
by thief on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 04:09:38 PM EST

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (none / 0)

Well, I generally agree with your post...
Though perhaps I'm still somewhat hopeful with Obama...
Though he hasn't always been the best of friends with us progressive activists, neither has he thrown under the bus in the way that Hillary has. Also, Obama's been our side longer than Edwards...
And longer than Clark.

Now, don't get me wrong...
I still haven't decided whom I will support in 2008, and Obama has not really onvinced me yet that he is the ideal progressive candidate that I've always wanted to vote for...

Still, I don't want to completely shut the door to Obama when he has been one of the most progressive, yet also most popular and most inspiring, voices in the Senate.


Want to defend marriage equality in Maine? Ask me how!
by atdleft on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 04:24:28 PM EST

Soak the rich (3.00 / 1)

The Democrats should eliminate payroll taxes on incomes under $30,000, allow renters to deduct the cost of rent from their income tax, restore the inheritance tax, limit the homeowner tax deduction to $25,000 a year, and raise personal income taxes on incomes above $150,000 to 45%.

Reagan was successful because he made war on the poor; it's not too hard to tell what the opposite of that is, is it?


by stevehigh on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 04:30:03 PM EST

Re: Soak the rich (none / 0)

It's not symmetrical.

The rich have much more political power than the poor. They vote, they fund campaigns, etc.

You cannot just play "opposite day" with the GOP to get to our destination:

The bottom line is that our job is harder than the conservatives' job.  After all, it's easy to articulate a belligerent foreign policy based solely on unilateral military action, a policy that sounds tough and acts dumb; it's harder to craft a foreign policy that's tough and smart.  It's easy to dismantle government safety nets; it's harder to transform those safety nets so that they work for people and can be paid for.  It's easy to embrace a theological absolutism; it's harder to find the right balance between the legitimate role of faith in our lives and the demands of our civic religion.  But that's our job.  And I firmly believe that whenever we exaggerate or demonize, or oversimplify or overstate our case, we lose.  Whenever we dumb down the political debate, we lose.  A polarized electorate that is turned off of politics, and easily dismisses both parties because of the nasty, dishonest tone of the debate, works perfectly well for those who seek to chip away at the very idea of government because, in the end, a cynical electorate is a selfish electorate.

Cite for the above quote from Obama.


Visit DebateScoop
by demondeac on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 04:44:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

God loved the Democrats (none / 0)

..because he made more of us than them.

They have the money; we have the votes. I think the issue can and should be simplified:

Tax the rich, not us.


by stevehigh on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 05:23:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Soak the rich (none / 0)

Clark said--NO taxes on families of 4 making $50K or less in 2004:

http://www.clark04.com/issues/


by ICantBelieve on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 08:33:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Nobody's a progressive champion in the race (3.00 / 1)

I can say the same things about Clark, Edwards, and even Gore that people said about Obama and Clinton upthread.  They all have issues and just because they've been out of office or been civilians doesn't mean those issues have went away in the last 2 to 6 years.


by Fro on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 05:40:13 PM EST

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (none / 0)

A great post Matt.


BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 06:03:59 PM EST

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (3.00 / 1)

This is a very revealing metaphor.

In a bar fight, Obama is the one guy smart enough to avoid getting arrested, and he might be enough of a leader to convince the participants to stop fighting. Matt Stoller, on the other hand, is the drunk guy instigating the fight.

Finally, the idea that Wes Clark is some great progressive champion is just nonsense. He's never held elected office. Prior to running in 04, he wasn't partisan at all. By then, Barack Obama had been in the Illinois legislature for some time, sponsoring very progressive legislation.

But of course, a black person or a woman on the top of the ticket would be bad for the Democratic? Why? Um, trust Matt Stoller or, er, David Sirota--or all the other white males on our side who get a very curious thrill out of attacking Obama and Hillary.


by Gibreel111 on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 06:18:10 PM EST

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (none / 0)

This is a very revealing metaphor.

In a bar fight, Obama is the one guy smart enough to avoid getting arrested, and he might be enough of a leader to convince the participants to stop fighting. Matt Stoller, on the other hand, is the drunk guy instigating the fight.

Finally, the idea that Wes Clark is some great progressive champion is just nonsense. He's never held elected office. Prior to running in 04, he wasn't partisan at all. By then, Barack Obama had been in the Illinois legislature for some time, sponsoring very progressive legislation.

But of course, a black person or a woman on the top of the ticket would be bad for the Democratic? Why? Um, trust Matt Stoller or, er, David Sirota--or all the other white males on our side who get a very curious thrill out of attacking Obama and Hillary.


by Gibreel111 on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 06:18:29 PM EST

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (none / 0)

In a bar fight, Obama is the one guy smart enough to avoid getting arrested, and he might be enough of a leader to convince the participants to stop fighting. Matt Stoller, on the other hand, is the drunk guy instigating the fight.

No, actually the right metaphor would be that a right-winger is beating a liberal senseless, and Obama has them both arrested.


by Matt Stoller on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 06:33:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (none / 0)

Yes. Barack Obama wants to arrest liberals. He opposes the war, takes a strong stance against what Wal Mart is doing to our communities, and is a champion of all Americans--not just white males! This, somehow, makes him an enemy of liberalism.

What a joke. You've written more spiteful things about fellow Democrats than anyone you're actually attacking.


by Gibreel111 on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 07:05:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (none / 0)

Dude, you were the one who extended the metaphor into stupid-land.


by Matt Stoller on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 12:41:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

That's cute Matt, I like that metaphor, (none / 0)

Do you mind if I use it in the future, sums things up nicely.


Check out the New Progressive Blog EENRBLOG
by dk2 on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 07:33:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (3.00 / 2)

If I had a choice of ANY of these guys.... in a Bar Fight, it would be Wes Clark hands down.


by TxKat on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 06:20:41 PM EST

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (none / 0)

A standing ovation from out here in CA-10!

Now, whom is more likely to stand with us in a bar fight:  a governor or a senator?

Words are cheap, votes in the U.S. Senate are a good guide, but having won election as a (state) chief executive and then accomplished a progressive agenda is best.  Governors act, senators talk.  Governors lead, senators follow (or mill around).

Some governors who come to mind:

Warner (glad to hear he might be back in)
Richardson (NM)
Spitzer (NY) (already mentioned by Coral)

And don't forget former Governor Dean.  We know he's with us.

Also, I think lisadawn82's comments about learning and leadership are true.  And on that note, former Vice President Gore looks good, too.  


by Airpower on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 07:34:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Bullshit (none / 0)

Do you really mean to imply that Warner would  be more likely to push a progressive agenda than Barbara Boxer or Russ Feingold?  Or Ted Kennedy, for that matter?


"You say the world has lost it's love I say embrace what it's made of" -Dar Williams
by Valatan on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 09:33:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bullshit (none / 0)

Not to say that Warner isn't a good Democrat, because he is, but really...


"You say the world has lost it's love I say embrace what it's made of" -Dar Williams
by Valatan on Wed Dec 20, 2006 at 09:59:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (none / 0)

Oops.  I posted my general comments under this specific comment.  Sorry.  Will repost correctly.


by Airpower on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 08:31:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (none / 0)

There's another angle here:

There are people in the Repub party now, who represent a more or less good analogy to who Reagan was for Repubs in '80

They have roughly the same values and the same willingness to use bold rhetoric and over the top photo ops to make an identity/ideology point.

You have the same angry constituencies now as then, who still feel powerless ('Bush wasn't a conservative,' etc); and these leaders would like to make changes as bigger or bigger than any Reagan envisioned

Yet, clearly there is no Reagan among them

I think the truth is Reagan was the icon of a moment in history; he had his talents, but he came to represent something much larger than himself

Point being that simply having that style, will not bring you the loyalty of the masses, or the sense of being the voice of the moment

You have to be the voice of the historical moment

Carter was that when he came in, because of Watergate, but the dynamics in the country rapidly shifted

Clinton was when he came in, but again a rapid shift

Kennedy was, but again soon had resistance

Reagan benefited from a large transition in the national mood and a sustained '80's paradigm' that of course he egged on, but many people wanted to go there in a sustained way

When you ride the tide, then you can appear to kick down the naysayers and ride even higher

But it's not the kicking alone that does it, you have to find the tide and really be riding it

There is an anti-Bush and anti-Repub-incompetence and anti-Iraq and anti-stagnation-on-many-fronts tide, and probably will be in 08
But the winner must somehow grasp the more sustained forces of the next 5-10 years and be that, become the tide that is happening anyway, co-create it and kick down obstructionists as needed

Maybe another way to say it is make sure as a bar-fighter that you narrowly target, and perhaps necessarily caricature your designated opponent, in order to get the good photo op

We need a progressive leader who is effective at iconizing and embodying in their spirit the concept of progressive/populist change

That's slightly different or more than someone who is simply vociferous about it, or fights about it, or is a passionate expert about it
Something more about capturing the spirit of the tide and portraying that in all kinds of little and big ways

If you just fight in general, or even just fight what are legitimately good fights to those who really pay attention, you don't necessarily get the points from the people


by jimpol on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 07:18:21 PM EST

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (none / 0)

It seems pointless to try to differentiate the potential candidates at this point when no one is even running on a platform calling for specific policy proposals, or issues to be addressed. I really don't like Hillary Clinton, but this is because she backed the Iraq War, doesn't care about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict (although no one in either party seems to care about it), and has been courting Republicans and "independents and moderates" to bolster her credentials. As she was a Goldwater Republican in college and all that, I think she triangulates worse than Bill. On Edwards, he says nice stuff about poverty, but the big economic issue out there isn't poverty; its the middle class falling apart, and most people just aren't going to pay attention to poverty related ills. On Wes Clark, he talks great, but the fact that he isn't in office, and some other stuff (like Kosovo) make him fishy to me. As for Obama, he's alright I think, but we need to see more. The only guy I can think of who is a real liberal, Russ Feingold, is already out. As for Kucinich, he is fun, but we know he can't win.


by liberal1990 on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 07:38:13 PM EST

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (none / 0)

The only guy I can think of who is a real liberal, Russ Feingold, is already out. As for Kucinich, he is fun, but we know he can't win.

Coming from the "Draft Russ" movement, I've got to point out that he was nowhere near the most electable candidate.  But he led on the issues, and a movement fell in behind him.

Nobody's said anything to convince me that Kucinich can't win.


Dennis Kucinich, Progressive Democrat for President in 2008
by hoose on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 07:57:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (none / 0)

Kucinich torpedoes himself.  If you look at the people he picked as the top people for his campaign last time, they were a joke.  The only people they were interested in attracting to Kucinich's side were Greens.


by catherineD on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 11:44:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (none / 0)

I was in New Hampshire volunteering for Dean the week before the primary and it really seemed to me like the Kucinich campaign was a one man operation.    Not that he didn't have supporters.  Our office ID'd several hundred in the Strafford county area.  A buddy and I later proceeded to call through our list of Kucinich IDs and try very earnestly to convince them one-by-one that Dean was THE progressive candidate that actually had a chance.

The difference being that no one was calling from the Kucinich office.  Kucinich didn't have an office.  All he seemed to have was a bunch of hippies that came from California in a rainbow colored bio-diesel school bus to follow him around the country, as if he were opening for Phish.


by ScottGunsaullus on Wed Dec 27, 2006 at 08:40:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (none / 0)

(Posting this comment correctly this time -- under the diary)

A standing ovation from out here in CA-10!

Now, whom is more likely to stand with us in a bar fight:  a governor or a senator?

Words are cheap, votes in the U.S. Senate are a good guide, but having won election as a (state) chief executive and then accomplished a progressive agenda is best.  Governors act, senators talk.  Governors lead, senators follow (or mill around).

Some governors who come to mind:

Warner (glad to hear he might be back in)
Richardson (NM)
Spitzer (NY) (already mentioned by Coral)

And don't forget former Governor Dean.  We know he's with us.

Also, I think lisadawn82's comments about learning and leadership are true.  And on that note, former Vice President Gore looks good, too.  


by Airpower on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 08:33:37 PM EST

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (none / 0)

Eliot Spitzer is definitely not running for president in 2008. His people say 2016 at the earliest.


by Gibreel111 on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 09:08:02 PM EST

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (none / 0)

I agree with you that Wes Clark has proven time and again that he is on our side. I think that all of the other Democratic candidates who you've mentioned know or should know how to prove that they're really on our side. Those who you mentioned who have been unwilling to take the tough positions don't lack intelligence or understanding, they lack the personal and political courage to stand up against the tide of opinion or  to stand up to entrenched power to support populist positions even when it's tough to do so.
That's what the votes "for" the Iraq War Resolution were all about. A lack of political courage to stand up to a popular president when it was right to do so. Feingold stood up along with 22 other courageous Senators. But only Feingold was contemplating a Presidential run when he voted "no". That took personal courage.

Wes Clark's willingness to fight for us is a reflection of his personal courage. It took courage to stand up for Ned Lamont. And integrity to campaign for those candidates who were a long shot but represented liberal values.
I sure hope Wes Clark runs. This country needs his personal courage and commitment to progressive values.
If he does we need to do what we can on the internet to see to it that this time his policy positions (both domestic and foreign) are heard and well-heard.


by eve on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 09:31:35 PM EST

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (1.00 / 1)

OK, this has been fun, and I've learned something by reading this thread--but it's mostly been that all of you Democrats are really more interested in the purity of your ideology than saving this country from looming disaster. The following observations all seem to me to be true:

"Obama is not a moderate, he only talks like one. Look at his staunchly liberal voting record."

"Clark didn't leave the Republican party, it left him."

"In 2002, he testified against the Iraq War.  In 2004, he stood up for Michael Moore, for dissent, and for the word LIBERAL.  And in 2006, he worked his ass off stumping for Democratic candidates all across this country."    

"Populist rhetoric is also useful because it is flexible. It can track changes in public awareness, or translated to different audiences, issues, specific policies or talking points."

"The point is that you can't guess the moves in a fixed chess game when you aren't the player."

"In a bar fight, Obama is the one guy smart enough to avoid getting arrested, and he might be enough of a leader to convince the participants to stop fighting. Matt Stoller, on the other hand, is the drunk guy instigating the fight."

"You've written more spiteful things about fellow Democrats than anyone you're actually attacking."

"We need a progressive leader who is effective at iconizing and embodying in their spirit the concept of progressive/populist change
she triangulates worse than Bill. On Edwards, he says nice stuff about poverty, but the big economic issue out there isn't poverty; its the middle class falling apart. On Wes Clark, he talks great, but the fact that he isn't in office, and some other stuff (like Kosovo) make him fishy to me. As for Obama, he's alright I think, but we need to see more..."

...However, the one thing that stands out in all of this is that average, non-partisan Americans like me don't know much about any of these folks, except former Vice President Gore, whom, because I know him so much better, I'd trust to take the country in a different, better direction than any of the others, including the overly wily, overly expedient Hillary.

So, if most of these folks don't have a lengthy record of positions taken, what's the next-best way to learn about their philosphies? Isn't it to know with what kind of people they surround themselves for advice? But you don't see very much good reporting going on anywhere in the mainstream media on THAT subject. I mean, I'd like to know which of these candidates would be more likely to heed the advice of former national security advisor Zbigniew Brzezinski on getting out of Iraq. I'd like to know which of them would listen carefully to what Jimmy Carter would say about negotiating with the Israelis. I'd like to know exactly WHICH "religious leaders" Barack Obama would be willing to do some soul-searching with.

And as for a "bar-room brawl," I'm with Barack Obama: there's been far too much of that. Any Democrat who's unwilling to govern on a bi-partisan basis with the few Republicans who actually DO care about the common, everyday man (McCain comes to mind) isn't going to get my vote, and vice-versa for the Republicans. I'm done with the ad hominem attacks of the likes of Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh, but I'm also sick of leftists who can't believe that a businessman or a war hero can care about the struggling average shmuck. Keep that up, my fine leftist friends, and you go down to ANOTHER resounding defeat with the likes of a limousine liberal like Kerry!


by digbydolben on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 10:06:02 PM EST

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (none / 0)

McCain is not the answer. He is a conservative through and through, and what will the common man get from a conservative? Absolutely nothing. Look at the last six years and tell me you think a conservative has the answers. Besides, McCain is like a bull moose in rut;he'd do a knothole in a tree if it would make him president. He still thinks we can win in Iraq, for Christ's sake!


by el maso on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 12:25:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (none / 0)

People have mentioned that l'il Dennis is the only one of the above who had the foresight to vote against both the war and the patriot act, but while everybody has been "tripping out" (yeah... I'm a DFH) over the 2008 barfight, no one has mentioned that he also is the only one with a realistic plan to end the war any time soon- by cutting off funding.  Of course it's only realistic if enough people pull their heads out of their butts by springtime to focus on this effort in a united way.  I believe Code Pink , Veterans Against the War, and others are on board already... I mean,  unless everybody would rather just keep looking beyond that opportunity and "head tripping" (there I go again) about Obama and Hillary and Wes, et AL (pun intended).  The people need to impress upon congress that "supporting the troops" no longer means funding the war- in fact it means the exact opposite!


by western otto on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 11:08:24 PM EST

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (3.00 / 1)

Wes Clark & Howard Dean have more guts, more steel in their spines, and more fire in the belly than the rest of the field combined.

Thank you so much for this.


by bluemoon on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 12:05:28 AM EST

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (none / 0)

My main problem with this argument is that it would have been pretty apt 2 years ago.  However 2008 will be a different political animal.

Republicans are no longer in the majority.  Personally I don't care about what they do because I don't think that it will matter.


by sterra on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 12:16:41 AM EST

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (none / 0)

The Republican Party is still very dangerous to us.  There is a reason why mainstream Republicans in Kansas of all places keep deserting the Republican Party, they don't recognize it anymore.  You might say that means the Republicans are in retreat, maybe temporarily, but we only won a battle in 2006, not the war.  

What today's Republican Party has is of course big money, but also concentrated control of media scripting and reenforcing their message, a public perception that has not yet been routed that Liberals are elitists, and a fanatical base of grass roots supporters (Religious Right, NRA, etc.) willing to do the hard nuts and bolts work of grassroots organizing that once upon a time only Democrats could recruit many people to do for free (often from Unions when they were a lot stronger).

Bush is not popular, but Bush will not run again.  Republicans mostly win by raising doubts in the public mind about specific Democrats, not generic Democrats.  In other words they will come at whoever we nominate in an effort to make that individual highly unpopular.  That's how they beat Dukakis, that's how they beat Gore, that's how they tore into Kerry's support, and it's what they never stopped doing with Bill Clinton.


Blogging at http://www.aleftturnforclark.com
by Tom Rinaldo on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 11:39:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (none / 0)

I'm late to the bar room analogy and the points I'd make in alerting you to your mistaken comments about Edwards have already been made. But had to wonder aloud if you're actively seeking employment with the Clark campaign...jus wondering.


by nite swimming on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 04:06:01 PM EST

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (none / 0)

Can't like someone unless you're pandering, nite swimming?  Are you employed by Edwards, then?

I really like this analogy because it reaches beyond individual strengths and asks a question that we might say is about "character" --- no, make that "leadership."  

I can still remember my disappointment in all of the political favors Bill Clinton pulled in, in order to give us....NAFTA.  

And speaking of pandering, Hillary and Obama, as Matt has said, seem to be more interested in being liked by their enemies, than in leading us in the coming fight for what's right.

I haven't followed Edwards' campaign recently, and I do like his poor vs. rich talk, but I don't think he's really displayed leadership yet.  Good speeches only make him Obama lite.

Clark has moved upward through the military by merit alone and has all along been lauded for his brilliance and amazing mind for strategy.  He has lead close to 100 nations in NATO, with Head of State status, into a war against genocide.  A very successful war.  He continues to study how to approach the Middle East and to develop plans for how we can compete economically over the next 100 years with emerging China, and how to deal with issues like global warming and Darfur.  

Many candidates I think say, "I'd like to become president and be in the history books --- policy will follow upon my maneuvering myself into that office."  Very, very few recognize that they have skills that may make the difference as to whether the United States --- and the world --- will be well off 50 years down the road, or civilization may have deteriorated.

I think if you look at the evidence, you will realize that Wes Clark is of the second type.


by catherineD on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 11:59:38 PM EST

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (none / 0)

catherineD,

Nope, no conflict of interest here. I'm not the least bit interested in working on anyone's campaign. I said I was just wondering...we'll see what pans out in the weeks...months to come.

You make some good points about Wes Clark. I just think Matt's paragraph comparing Clark and Edwards as ballroom brawlers was strange and entirely off the mark. It really didn't do either Clark or Edwards justice.


by nite swimming on Wed Dec 20, 2006 at 01:50:33 AM EST

Re: The Bar Fight Primary (none / 0)

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by lucitana on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 02:56:48 AM EST


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