Opening Still Remains for Consensus Progressive Candidate

With a consensus seeming to crop up within the Beltway that the race for the 2008 Democratic presidential nomination will come down to Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama, it's very well worth noting that there is still a rather wide opening for another strong candidate to emerge -- one who might even have a better chance of securing the nomination than the two perceived frontrunners. Atrios touched on this yesterday.

I think the primary thing that an Obama run does is kill what was the long held conventional wisdom that the race would be between Hillary and someone who manages to emerge as the Not Hillary. Obama could've been the Not Hillary if he'd gone that path, but his knee-jerk tendency to triangulate has made that unlikely. So, right now we're looking at Hillary, Obama, and NotHillaryOrObama, who will probably be Edwards.

And all this could change in a month.

Gauging by the similarity in general political ideology and voting pattern between Senators Clinton and Obama, it appears to me that Atrios is entirely correct in his reading of the race. Both Senators fall clearly on the liberal side of the political spectrum (if such a thing exists), yet neither is particularly far to the left within the Democratic Party. Both find themselves in the middle third of the Democratic caucus in the senate, with Clinton coming in as 21st most liberal of 44 Democrats and Obama coming in as 16th most liberal, according to National Journal's 2005 vote rankings.

As a result of these apparent similarities in voting pattern and rhetoric, it's quite possible that Clinton and Obama will be fighting over the same piece of turf over the next year, leaving open the potential for a candidate to build a coalition within the party from the left to the center rather than from the center to the left. Like Atrios, I see John Edwards as being the frontrunner for this position, though he is not a prohibitive one. Should Al Gore decide to or be cajoled to run, he would likely be able to fulfill this role, though if he doesn't others, including Bill Richardson, Wes Clark or even someone else (though probably not Mike Gravel), could play the part. But the key is finding the one consensus candidate to fulfill this role.

In some ways, this situation mirrors 1976, when two relatively ideologically similar candidates -- Sen. Birch Bayh of Indiana and Rep. Mo Udall of Arizona -- and a few others (Idaho Sen. Frank Church and former Oklahoma Sen. Fred Harris included) vied for the left of the party, while former Georgia Governor Jimmy Carter, who was not as traditionally liberal as those mentioned above and who basically ran as a moderate, was able to win caucuses and primaries across the country by securing plurality support. In Iowa Caucuses that year, for instance, Bayh, Harris, Udall and Sargent Shriver combined to receive more than 32 percent support -- about five points more than Carter. In the New Hampshire primary that year, the four candidates received a combined 56.9 percent of the vote -- more than double Carter's 28.4 percent plurality.

So just as Jimmy Carter was able to build a coalition out of the voters not as clearly targeted by the leading liberal candidates, so too might a solidly progressive candidate be able to do the same with the voters being overlooked by Sens. Clinton and Obama. To be clear, there are noticeable dissimiliarities between this cycle and the one 32 years ago, most notably that the nomination process is significantly more nationalized than it once was and, more to the point, that Clinton and Obama seem to have more support today than Udall, Bayh, et. al. did going into 1976. That said, if Clinton and Obama continue along the same path, courting a generally similar batch of likely caucus goers and primary voters, another Democrat might well sneak in and capture the party nomination. After all, John Edwards does continue to maintain rather strong support from Iowans.



Display:


Re: Opening Still Remains for Consensus Progressiv (3.00 / 3)

The idea that Obama and Hillary will compete for the  same voters demonstrates woeful ignorance of the Democratic Party, and seems to perpetuate a meme originated by David Sirota, Harper's magazine and the other torchbeaers of white leftism in this country.

Obama will, above all else, capture the student and young person vote to a degree that Hillary is incapable of. Hillary will do better with women, but Obama will do better with African-Americans. I'm not really sure where their overlap is at all.

On a broader note, I've enjoyed reading this site for several years, but I'm just disgusted by the misreading of Obama. It's such a misreding that one wonders whether it is intentional. He was against the war--always--and has supported a women's right to choose--always. Unlike, say, Al Gore. Simply because he wants to reach out doesn't make him accomodationist. It makes him a leader.


by Gibreel111 on Sat Dec 16, 2006 at 06:52:29 PM EST

Re: Opening Still Remains for Consensus Progressiv (3.00 / 2)

I agree, and am going to have a post up on Obama's unprecedented strength among the youth, here in the coming week.


by Jerome Armstrong on Sat Dec 16, 2006 at 06:54:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Opening Still Remains for Consensus Progressiv (3.00 / 1)

As an unofficial member of "the youth" (I'm 21 and an occasional College Democrat), I don't know where you're coming from. He's done nothing to excite me, and he's said some incredibly stupid things. Edwards is the only remotely interesting candidate of the lot.


by Nasarius on Sun Dec 17, 2006 at 10:16:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama knocked Hillary down by 10 points... (3.00 / 1)

...in October from where she was in June. Edwards, meanwhile, gained 6 points and now leads Hillary by 20.

Obama appears to appeal to many of the same Democrats that Hillary does.


John Edwards 2008
by MeanBoneII on Sat Dec 16, 2006 at 06:59:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama knocked Hillary down by 10 points... (none / 0)

where is your support for this claim?


by blueryan on Sat Dec 16, 2006 at 07:07:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

In the links in the comment you just replied to. (3.00 / 1)

In June's Iowa poll:
Edwards 30
Hillary 26
Kerry 12
Vilsack 10

In the October Iowa poll (which includes Obama):
Edwards 36
Hillary 16
Obama 13
Vilsack 9
Kerry 6
Biden 5
Clark 3

Differences from June to October: Edwards +6, Hillary -10, Vilsack -1, Kerry -6.

Major changes that occurred: Inclusion of Obama in the poll, Kerry's "botched joke"


John Edwards 2008
by MeanBoneII on Sat Dec 16, 2006 at 07:16:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: In the links in the comment you just replied t (3.00 / 1)

I asked where your support was because these numbers don't support your claim that Hillary and Obama have the same pool of voters.  Just because Hillary dropped 10 points in 4 monthes time doesn't mean it was because of Obama's entrance.  People are moving away from her as they recoginize more alternatives, big surprise.  I could just as easily say Edwards took his 6 points from Hillary in that time period since he has been much more public recently and it was more apparent than he was running in October than it was in June.

Also this poll is outdated.  Nationally people know little about Obama, but they knew even less two months ago.  When/If he announces and he's on the campaign trail with a platform than you can claim him and Hillary are competing for the same voters.  Right now though that claim is weak.


by blueryan on Sat Dec 16, 2006 at 07:22:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I think the inclusion... (3.00 / 2)

...of Obama in the October poll is very likely the primary cause of a significantly weaker showing by Clinton than she had in the June poll -- seeing a lack of other significant events -- which suggests an overlap of support between the two. Obviously, that's why they call it "analysis." :)


John Edwards 2008
by MeanBoneII on Sat Dec 16, 2006 at 07:31:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I suppose but (none / 0)

4 months is a long time and Hillary's support in Iowa has always been soft to say the least.  Using two Iowa polls that are 4 months apart is a little bit of a stretch for this "analysis".  Maybe if these numbers were national and the dip in Hillary's support went 10 points in the month that Obama emerged instead of over a 4 month period this claim would hold more water.


by blueryan on Sat Dec 16, 2006 at 07:51:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I think the inclusion... (none / 0)

Since Edwards is more conservative than Obama, how do you support your general thesis?


The history of the left is a history of purists betraying the progressive movement so that they can feel good about their righteous selves.
by Populism2008 on Sat Dec 16, 2006 at 09:24:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Regardless of the labels... (none / 0)

...the numbers appear to show Obama drawing support away from Hillary. Again, that's my analysis, it's not something that can be empirically proven (at least with the data available).


John Edwards 2008
by MeanBoneII on Sat Dec 16, 2006 at 10:27:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I think the inclusion... (3.00 / 1)

I think it's an open question between Edwards and Obama as to who's more liberal, and I'm in both their camps.  Edwards voted for the IWR; Obama may be less of an economic populist.


by Adam B on Sat Dec 16, 2006 at 10:43:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Edwards More Conservative Than Obama??? (3.00 / 2)

Edwards and Obama have virtually identical records in the Senate via DW-Nominate in two consecutive Congresses, the only metric that allows us to compare people who served at different times.  Obama was tied for 20th in the 109th (Clinton and Kerry tied for 23rd and 25th, respectively). And Edwards was 20th by himself in the 108th (Kerry and Clinton tied for 21st).  Now, these scores can bounce around from Congress to Congress, but they rarely jump around that much.  Clinton, Obama and Edwards are all relatively close in their ideological positioning.  (Kerry, too, though he was noticeably more liberal earlier on.)

You want the real liberals in the Democratic Senate, you have to look to the other Senator from Illinois.  Durban was 16th in the 108th and 2nd in the 109th. Or, more to the point, Barbara Boxer, 1st both times. Kennedy, 2nd and 5th.  Reed, 4th and tied for 9th.  Corzine, 5th and tied for 7th.  Sarbanes, tied for 8th (4-way) and tied for 7th. Feingold, tied for 17th and 3rd (Feingold really is a maverick. A high error score--meaning his ranking incorrectly predicts his vote more often--and volatility from Congress to Congress.  He was #1 in the 107th.)

So what distinguishes Clinton, Obama and Edwards beyond style and demographic appeal?  So far, one thing jumps out at me: Edwards is not afraid of taking a stand and polarizing. Furthermore, he knows this is his strength, which is why he's announcing in the 9th Ward of New Orleans.  Having left the Senate, we can no longer compare with a common metric, but Edwards clearly appears to have moved significantly to the left on economics, and could credibly do better than Obama with some black demographics as a result.

Thus--how it appears right now--Edwards has a greater investment in making this a campaign about issues.  Clinton has an investment in making it a campaign about experience.  And Obama has an investment in making it a campaign about feeling good and bringing us together.  The GOP slime machine has already started on Obama, and it just may be that the way this hurts him most will be that it makes Edwards look tougher and more realistic.  OTOH, it really could help Obama rise above it all, particularly if the attacks fizzle--as, of course, they should, but have not done since Clinton won in 1992.

As I've said many times now, it's way too early to be saying anything definite about this race.  We can only talk about where it's coming from, and where it is right now.  If we hit a heavy recession in the next year, for example, how will Obama respond?  If he doesn't say something it's likely to strengthen Edwards considerably.  But what does he say without straining his "Can't we all get along?" strategy?

OTOH, what if things go okay, and Obama actually spends some time in the Senate, crafting major legislation he can hang his hat on?  And what if Reps, misunderestimating him, let it pass & get signed into law??? In short, just way too many variables for all us would-be smart asses to handle.

But we can get clearer on what the records show, and gain some perspective on our own biases.  There is no obligation to be bias-free--it's an impossible goal, anyway.  But being bias-aware is a big plus for avoiding self-delusion.


by Paul Rosenberg on Sat Dec 16, 2006 at 11:23:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Correction: "botched joke" came after nt (none / 0)


John Edwards 2008
by MeanBoneII on Sat Dec 16, 2006 at 07:34:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What!?! (3.00 / 1)

Let's get something straight here...you are merging two totally separate issues. Right now, Obama is seen as the "outsider" and has sapped a lot of strength from Hillary from those who do not want Bush-Clinton-Bush-Clinton in the history books. So naturally, some of the new support from Obama came from Hillary defectors just as McCain's status in 2000 also had the same effect for George W. Bush. Notice...McCain didn't win in any case.

But in terms of progressive values, Obama and Hillary are both more of the same...business as usual. Hillary's soul is owned by various groups like Emily's List which want to push a specific agenda and the Jewish Caucus in the Democratic party that can't stomach getting out of Iraq. Come 2009, those aren't going to be the biggest problems the country faces...(or at least the toughest choices) and hence she's really just an extension of the Clinton Dynasty.

Barack Obama is a lot like George W. Bush...he's a likeable person who is simply too close to vested interests to really provide objective leadership. I read that Harper's article and was astounded how consistently he has supported Archer Daniels Midland and Illinois at the expense of the country. We moan about Halliburton and Betchel...yet Obama is an all too certain guarantee that the names will change but everything will stay the same.

I applaud Jonathan for cognently pointing out that it's not about the number of candidates in the race but the diversity of opinion available to the electorate. I don't care if my candidate looks like Elle Woods or Tiger Woods and much of the Obama-fever revolves around the fact that lots of young people in the country are of mixed race and like seeing a person they can "relate" to.


by risenmessiah on Sat Dec 16, 2006 at 07:48:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

asdf (none / 0)

and has supported a women's right to choose--always.

Bill Clinton was "anti-choice" when he was the Gov. of Arkansas, but Clinton/Gore administration was strongly pro-choice. Had Obama been the gov. of AR in the 1980s, I think he would have been "anti-choice" as well.


by NuevoLiberal on Sat Dec 16, 2006 at 08:35:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: asdf (none / 0)

I'm actually not inclined to place too much stock in either Obama's or Edwards' voting records, because they were at least somewhat accountable to liberal voters in Obama's case, and frighteningly rightwing ones in Edwards'.  I don't have much faith in either one of them being able to actually get much done, but I try to give them a bit of slack as legislators... it's the whole lack of experience thing that bothers me, because having great ideas is only helpful if they can actually be, y'know, implemented.  And any Democratic president in 2009 will be facing a wounded and cornered animal in the GOP, not to mention an almost certainly doubtful media.  A lot of people have a sort of faith that either Obama or Edwards will use soaring rhetoric to motivate the population enough to smack down the opposition, but my take is more cynical-- I think that either one would be the easy-answer winner, popular mostly with those who prefer to be complacent & disengaged but still want to feel good about themselves.


by latts on Sat Dec 16, 2006 at 10:20:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Getting Stuff Done Depends On Congress, Too (3.00 / 1)

having great ideas is only helpful if they can actually be, y'know, implemented.  And any Democratic president in 2009 will be facing a wounded and cornered animal in the GOP, not to mention an almost certainly doubtful media.
All true.  But if the Dems have another wave electin pickup in 2008, things will look very different, indeed.  And right now the GOP's fortunes are not getting any better, their open seats next time could go up, the Dems will have their own agenda-setting happening in Congress... so, as I've said elsewhere, over and over, it really is too early to tell, even though I agree 100% with your underlying point.


by Paul Rosenberg on Sat Dec 16, 2006 at 11:30:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: asdf (none / 0)

Al Gore was pro-choice before he was pro-life. This was prior to him joining the White House.


by Gibreel111 on Sun Dec 17, 2006 at 03:10:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Opening Still Remains for Consensus Progressiv (3.00 / 1)

I agree with your post 100%. The Obama bashing is sickening. For once we have a Democratic leader who is both progressive and charismatic and some left wingers are rushing to tear him down.

Obama is the NotHillary candidate. Hillary would destroy our party, Obama will singlehandely expand our majority. Obama is the future, Hillary is the past.

That being said, I like Edwards. Either Obama or Edwards would be fine to me.


The history of the left is a history of purists betraying the progressive movement so that they can feel good about their righteous selves.
by Populism2008 on Sat Dec 16, 2006 at 09:19:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Opening Still Remains for Consensus Progressiv (none / 0)

Hey Gibreel111:

My personal preference is General Wesley Clark, for the simple reason that He has been a wartime general, and that is exactly what we will need when all hell breaks lose, and the economy disintegrates. (So that is now said.)

I am currently having a Barack Obama crisis, in that I have heard a lot of negative chatter (perhaps mostly on MyDD) about him, and that can mount up, and at some point turn me off of the candidate. This has amounted to more than a 99% certainty of a substantiated turn-off in the case of Hillary (although I am still open to hear more evidence).

Right now, I am in need of a hell of a lot of guidance about the nature of this previous negative chatter about Obama.

Here in Massachusetts, We just elected a black man, Deval Patrick, to the Governorship. He won handily and I was astonished at how well it worked out. The Commonwealth of Massachusetts is vastly less liberal than its reputation suggests. It is, in reality, the most Puritan state in the US. So maybe running a black person could work, perhaps even in the deep South. Politics is not a linear art.

I really, really do need to know more about Obama. It's a long way from Massachusetts to Illinois.


by blues on Sat Dec 16, 2006 at 10:11:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Opening Still Remains for Consensus Progressiv (3.00 / 2)

I agree with you.  I love this site but, the bashing of Obama is distressing.  It makes me wonder if the owners have bothered to check his record and legislation of the state and senate.  
Edwards was running for president since he was elected to the senate and did not spend much time there or do much work.  I like Edwards but, this is a fact.
Obama helped pushed through coverage for kids under 18 for medical here in Illinois.  And has done alot of work.
He does not triagulate and is not some centrist because he doesn't spend his day gop bashing.  Or being just like the republicans.  He feels dems are better than acting like spoiled bullies.
by vwcat on Sat Dec 16, 2006 at 10:45:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

We're Not BASHING Obama (3.00 / 3)

We're criticizing him. There's a BIG difference, but Obama's supporters seem incapable of understanding that.  So far, they've mostly proven incapable of responding to criticism with reasoned argument.

Now, of course we realize that politics is anything but a rational process in the end.  But we critics see MyDD's place in the universe as firmly grounded in the reality-based community.  So we sort of figure that reality-based critiques are fair game.

His voting record is not spectacularly liberal, for example.  Edwards, representing a much more consrvative state, had a relatively similar Senate record.  Obama has bailed on a number of significant progressive votes, and has been all over the place on the Iraq War since gaining a national platform--currently supporting the ISG, for example, which prevents the withdrawal that most Americans--not just Democrats--now favor.

These are facts, which we would like to discuss, but which Obama supporters do not.  And so they accuse us of "bashing" him as a way to avoid discussing his record, and what he is actually about.


by Paul Rosenberg on Sat Dec 16, 2006 at 11:43:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Opening Still Remains for Consensus Progressiv (3.00 / 1)

I agree with the jist of your post but

"Hillary will do better with women, but Obama will do better with African-Americans."

Hillary was going to have those two demographics all to herself before Obama entered the race. Not only does Obama likely win the African-American vote but he'll end up drawing women away too.


by js noble on Sun Dec 17, 2006 at 01:22:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Clinton and Obama also are likely to split... (3.00 / 1)

...a good percentage of the African-American vote, certainly, leaving an opening that might not exist otherwise, or at least not be as wide.


John Edwards 2008
by MeanBoneII on Sat Dec 16, 2006 at 06:53:45 PM EST

Don't Forget Edwards (3.00 / 1)

There's more than one reason he's announcing in the 9th Ward.  Making it perfectly clear that his economic populism is for everyone, not just white folks, is a very important thing for him.  No guarantees if it will succeed.  But he's certainly not conceding black support.  Or Latino support, either, for that matter.


by Paul Rosenberg on Sat Dec 16, 2006 at 11:47:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Opening Still Remains for Consensus Progressiv (3.00 / 1)

If you really think that, then let's call Edwards what he is: the candidate of white labor. That's fine, but to win we need someone who can unite everyone--labor, people of color, students, women while capturing a good chunk of the white middle class vote, too.

But I digress. I DO NOT think Obama and Clinton will split the African-American vote; Hillary's high numbers now among African Americans I think can be attributed solely to her husband. Once she begins to campaign, the fact that she is not her husband will become clear to all. She will do well among middle class whites and some corporate, free trader types. I don't see where else she gets her support.


by Gibreel111 on Sat Dec 16, 2006 at 06:58:10 PM EST

Bill likely will be campaigning for her, also. (3.00 / 2)

I think a significant proportion of African-Americans who participate in primaries vote pragmatically. Sharpton got about 15% of the black vote in S.C. in 2004, but that was only half of what Kerry received and less than half of what Edwards received. Obviously, Obama is no Sharpton, but clearly there's more involved than skin color.

Edwards has made strong efforts to reach out to the African-American community. Poverty is an issue that crosses racial divides, also. I think he'll do fairly well with black voters.


John Edwards 2008
by MeanBoneII on Sat Dec 16, 2006 at 07:11:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Opening Still Remains for Consensus Progressiv (3.00 / 0)

In the primaries, Edwards will certainly have the labor movement as his base of support. I would disagree with the "white" part in the case of NV, but if you're talking about African American voting in the primaries, it looks like Obama will be the guy. If he doesn't get the nomination, we could potentially see a deflated turnout amongst African Americans. However, I think all 3 of the candidates will poll excellently among women in the general. I don't really see that as being an issue.

I think the above commenter makes a great point about underestimating Obama's strength in the young voters category. I'm a college kid, and friends of mine who have never showed any interest in politics whatsoever are excited about Barack. That being said, it's gonna be a tall order getting students and other young voters to participate in primaries--we're notoriously the most unreliable of voters, and we're even worse at voting in primaries (I believe the actual stats from states that keep track are something like 5-8% participation rates in primarie for 18-29 yo's, but it's worth looking up as I'm just working from memory here).


Never separate the life you live from the words you speak. -Sen. Paul Wellstone (Minnesota)
by Max Fletcher on Sat Dec 16, 2006 at 07:24:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I Get That Students Are Jazzed With Obama (none / 0)

But I don't know about young folks generally.  This is a common mistake dating back at least to the 1950s and 60s.  In the 60s, college students were much more liberal, anti-war and outspoken than the rest of their age cohort, but they were all gathered together on campuses where they could create a mass impression.  In time, of course, they did have an effect on the rest of their age cohort--particularly when the anti-war movement caught fire with the troops in Vietnam.  But that happened relatively late--too late to help Obama, if the situation is analogous.

In the 1950s, it was the other way around.  Books like The Uncommitted missed the whole phenomena of black youth that was rapidly developing, and would prove invaluable in the early 60s, energizing white youth in turn.

Likewise, I think Obama could get less black support than you expect.  He'll do well, for sure.  But Clinton and Edwards both have legitimate pitches to make for black support.  For example,  Edward's announcing his candidacy in the 9th Ward is a clear signal that he's not just the candidate of white labor.  Blacks above all know the naivite of asking, "Can't we all just get along?"  And so, if things continue to polarize, Obama's stock may rise among whites, even while cooling among blacks.  May.  It's way too early to tell, as I've said over and over again.


by Paul Rosenberg on Sun Dec 17, 2006 at 12:05:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Opening Still Remains for Consensus Progressiv (3.00 / 0)

I disagree I think Obama has and will continue to emerge as the anti-Hillary candidate.  While he may have a similar voting record and arguably tries to talk like he's from the center like Clinton does, he's still seen by many as a great alternative.

Democrats have had Hillary shoved down their throat as the certain nominee of our party by the MSM since Kerry lost in 04.  The reasons many of us looked for an alternative to her are varied.  For instance one huge reason for many could be her hawkish foreign policy views.  With Iraq in particular, her views just aren't acceptable to a lot of Democrats.  Obama has been against the war from the beginning.  Others seek an alternative to Hillary because they see her as being too polarizing and unelectable.  Obama is not nearly as polarizing of a figure.  He's also not viewed as  north east liberal like Hillary is.  I think a lot of Democrats are going to have trouble nominating someone from the north east again after Kerry's failure to even compete in so much of the country.  This may not be fair, but I just don't think Democrats want to risk nominating another north easterner after 04.

Now this isn't to trivialize Edwards.  He has great potential and offers all the things I mentioned about Obama above.  He too would be a great anti-Hillary candidate.  Judging by what i've seen from the blogosphere i'm guessing he'll be the anti-Hillary for places like here.  However, Obama can energize people like no other and his grass roots support is going to be enormous.  I'd be happy with either Edwards or Obama winning really, I just hope they don't split the anti-Hillary vote and ensure her a plurality in enough states to win.  


by blueryan on Sat Dec 16, 2006 at 06:58:25 PM EST

Re: Opening Still Remains for Consensus Progressiv (none / 0)

He has a somewhat more progressive voting record than Hillary and a much more progressive voting record than Edwards.

Frankly that should be enough.

I like Edwards and I like Obama. Either of them would be fine, as long as they beat Hillary.


The history of the left is a history of purists betraying the progressive movement so that they can feel good about their righteous selves.
by Populism2008 on Sat Dec 16, 2006 at 09:28:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Students for Obama (3.00 / 1)

www.studentsforbarackobama.com

22,000 facebook members.

Hillary could never, ever come close.


by Gibreel111 on Sat Dec 16, 2006 at 07:00:05 PM EST

Re: Students for Obama (none / 0)

It's closer to 26k now.


by Jerome Armstrong on Sat Dec 16, 2006 at 09:22:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Students for Obama (none / 0)

This is a very interesting piece of data, and I would guess that Obama has some strength among young voters.  In a general election I think he may have the potential to seriously drive up youth turnout in a way HRC will not.  That is of course if he runs as a progressive instead of a Daschlized Senator.

Youth though are not a factor in primaries.


by Matt Stoller on Sat Dec 16, 2006 at 10:05:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That's A Big Advantage for Obama (3.00 / 2)

He can help cement the huge Generation Y as Democrats, much the way Kennedy helped turn the Boomers into strong Democrats, at least for a gneration.


by Arthurkc on Sat Dec 16, 2006 at 10:24:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Students for Obama (3.00 / 0)

Youth are a factor in certain states and districts, although not Iowa, Nevada, or South Carolina.

Youth were a big factor in Wisconsin 2006, for example, when something like every Republican state legislator representing any part of a UW college town lost.

Youth are also a real factor in the pre-primary.  Youth can help create big crowds, which as we saw with Obama's New Hampshire trip matter in terms of perception of momentum, and press narratives, and therefore fundraising.  Youth don't actually vote in the relevant primaries and they also don't donate much, but they do matter.

For instance, how much free press would that little facebook anecdote earn Obama?  And of course big donors are looking forwards towards general election turnout.  Youth do matter in primaries, if only indirectly.


by texas dem on Sun Dec 17, 2006 at 12:12:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

That May Be True (none / 0)

but the chance for an Obama/Edwards or an Edwards/Obama ticket is a opportunity to solidify a major voting block for Democrats for forty years.  The attraction of both Obama and Edwards to the young and female voters is palpable.

My wife and 18 year old daughter are so turned on by both of them that it takes me back to before I was a teenager and recalling my mother saying after Kennedy spoke on television from the 1956 Democratic convention that if JFK ever ran for president he'd have her vote.  And when it happened, when he ran, he energized a generation.  It seems as though we are about to experience the same emotional upwelling again and their voting records and specific accomplishments, or lack thereof, will matter less than the sense of hope they engender.


by Arthurkc on Sun Dec 17, 2006 at 12:23:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Political Spectrum (none / 0)

What is "if it exists" supposed to mean?


by CT student on Sat Dec 16, 2006 at 07:04:35 PM EST

Re: Political Spectrum (none / 0)

It's not clear to me that there is acually a 1-dimensional left-right spectrum (left/right) but rather a 2- or 3-dimenional one that finds people who are ideologically dissimilar on a number of issues.


Blogging here @ MyDD.com. Twittering @jonathanhsinger.
by Jonathan Singer on Sat Dec 16, 2006 at 07:13:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Strong Evidence For < 2 Dimensions (3.00 / 1)

Two different sorts of data provide strong evidence for 1+ dimension--meaning one enduring dimension, plus another, more fragmented, less enduring one.

The first sort of data comes from Congressional voting, and is reflected in the roll-call DW-Nominate data I've been referring to.  Studying Congressional voting from the first Congress to the present, Keith Poole and colleagues have found that voting can be described in a two dimensional space, with one dominant (economic) and one sub-dominant (predominantly racial) dimension, but that the second dimension has now virtually collapsed.

The second sort comes from a comprehensive statistical analysis of public survey data series by James A. Stimson in Public Opinion in America: Moods, Cycles, and Swings.  Using two different methods, he identified one principle and one secondary common axis.  The first was relatively coherent in terms of the items it explained--primarily economic--while the second, weaker one, had a less coherent mix of issues associated with it.

Obviously, Congressional votes are constrained by what comes up for a vote, which involves multiple levels of screening.

Furthermore, there certainly is some sense in which liberalism has a populist (economic) and a civil libertarian (social) dimension to it that diverge from one another.  However, the two dimensions are not mathematically independent.  Those who are more economically progressive are more likely to be more socially progressive as well.  This is why it is best conceptualized as 1+ dimensions, rather than 2.


by Paul Rosenberg on Sun Dec 17, 2006 at 01:37:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Opening Still Remains for Consensus Progressiv (none / 0)

Edwards' lifetime National Journal rating is 75.7 (excluding his 2004 score, but I can't find a reference to an average including it, but that's probably a more accurate reflection of his voting record anyways since he wasn't voting very often that year).  That's 4 points lower than Hillary and 6 lower than Obama.  Going strictly from voting patterns, Edwards is one of the more conservative candidates in the field.

http://mediamatters.org/items/2004071200 04


by Ramo on Sat Dec 16, 2006 at 07:05:57 PM EST

That's Not The Only, Or Even Best Comparison (3.00 / 1)

DW-Nominate uses all roll-call votes, ordering from right to left.  While Edwards was more conservative in the 107th Congress, he and Obama were virtually identical in the 108th vs. 109th.  Add in the factor that Illinois is a lot more liberal than North Carolina, and it's virtually a wash.

Where they really differ, so far as I can see, is that Edwards recognizes the polarization of our society, he sees that it's not just a matter of politics, but of the underlying economic reality, and therefore concludes that it won't just go away by singing "Kumbayah."  Counter-intuitively, he's the one who understands the need for "We Shall Overcome" better than Obama does, IMHO.  The more Edwards campaigns on this basis, the more clearly progressive he is likely to become, at the same time Obama is triangulating in DC and on TV.

But, again, it's hard to predict, especially where the future is concerned.


by Paul Rosenberg on Sun Dec 17, 2006 at 12:16:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's Not The Only, Or Even Best Comparison (none / 0)

"he and Obama were virtually identical in the 108th vs. 109th.  Add in the factor that Illinois is a lot more liberal than North Carolina, and it's virtually a wash."

He wasn't running for re-election in NC during most of the 108th Congress.  He was running for the nomination of a considerably more liberal electorate than all of IL.  And he got to duck out for a lot of votes while campaigning.  So not an entirely fair comparison.

"Where they really differ, so far as I can see, is that Edwards recognizes the polarization of our society, he sees that it's not just a matter of politics, but of the underlying economic reality, and therefore concludes that it won't just go away by singing "Kumbayah.""

But the point is that in terms of actual policies, Obama is trying to address the economic reality, possibly to a greater extent than Edwards.  As indicated by their voting records.  That he sells it through a rhetoric of unity doesn't negate that.


by Ramo on Sun Dec 17, 2006 at 01:38:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I've Since Posted Edwards' Full Record (3.00 / 3)

Edwards:

106th: 24.
107th: 38.
108th: 20.

Obama:

109th: Tied for 20.

Spin it however you want, but it's very hard to argue that Edwards from a red state and Obama from a blue one are all that far apart in their voting record.

The fact that you portray their differences in terms of "a rhetoric of unity" indicates that you buy Obama's frame--that it's all about rhetoric.

However, there's substantial evidence that this simply isn't so.  The nation's divisions are certainly exacerbated by rhetorical polarizaiton--initiated and sustained by the right--as well as being misrepresented and mis-directed by the right.

But to the extent that they are rooted in economics--and again, there is substantial evidence that this is so--the polarization comes from 80%+ stagnating, while the vast majority of wealth accumulation goes to a mere 5% of the population. This has been the case for several decades now.

These figures--as well as decades of public survey data--show that clarifying the polarization in terms of basic economic realities (which can most definitely be discussed in moral, even religious terms) is a very potent political strategy, with the potential to produce New Deal era-style majorities, and a restoration of the sort of egalitarian consensus exhibited by Eisenhower & Rockefeller Republicans.

This is the logic of supporting Edwards.  Even if he is not inherently as progressive as someone like Feingold, for instance, his candidacy has the potential to catalyze a process that will in turn carry him in a more progressive direction as it unfolds.

The logic with Obama seems to be directly opposite.  While we can all share his desire to end the polarization and partisan rancour that pervades our politics, trying to do so while downplaying the underlying facts merely serves to buffer the existing inequalities from the forces of change.

There is a very real sense in which Obama reminds me of Booker T. Washington, who preached a similar sort of racial reconciliation without addressing the underlying reality.  The difference now is that it's not just a racial divide, it's a 5%/15%/80% economic divide.  Because of their levels of participation that 15% can well turn out to be the key "swing voter" block.  And to the degree that they buy into Obama because they see him as "one of us," we may very well be seeing a replay of Washington's failed experiment.  The price of feeling good in the short term could well be a prolonged period of suffering.

I'm not saying that this surely will happen.  But I am saying that this is very plausible possibility, and that it deserves to be seriously considered, not least of all to propose ideas about what can be done to prevent this eventuality.


by Paul Rosenberg on Sun Dec 17, 2006 at 02:07:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I've Since Posted Edwards' Full Record (none / 0)

Finally, a well explained, comparitive argument about the means to the end.

I think most arguments I have read (almost all of them in the last few weeks on every major Dem blog) have either not been comparative (just a negative shot at one candidate or a puff up of one candidate's virtues), or have confused means with ends (ignoring the fact that Obama does care about poverty and is progressive but has a different tactic for creating the large majority needed to make the major changes in law that are required before real progress is possible).

I would be interested in your writing a piece that includes the references to the data and probes the following in greater depth:

These figures--as well as decades of public survey data--show that clarifying the polarization in terms of basic economic realities (which can most definitely be discussed in moral, even religious terms) is a very potent political strategy, with the potential to produce New Deal era-style majorities, and a restoration of the sort of egalitarian consensus exhibited by Eisenhower & Rockefeller Republicans.


Visit DebateScoop
by demondeac on Sun Dec 17, 2006 at 10:51:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I've Since Posted Edwards' Full Record (none / 0)

fwiw, you are not making an accurate comparison, but it's not that you can either.  What you could do, is look at how Obama does in the run-up to '08. Edwards went from a conservative democrat to a left center democrat in the run-up to '04; and Obama starts with a left center democrat and winds up... we'll see in the 110th.

Edwards:

107th: 38.
108th: 20.

Obama:

109th: Tied for 20.  
110th: ?

I would actually find even more appeal for Obama if he wound up right right where he is in the 110th too. I don't really find much authenticity in the type of politician that jumps their vote around when the primary nears.


by Jerome Armstrong on Sun Dec 17, 2006 at 02:59:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You're Ignoring Edwards' First Two Years (none / 0)

I had to do the calculations myself, since the format changed with 107th, and wasn't presented in rank-sorted order before that.  But if you download and sort it for yourself, you'll see that Edwards was 24th in the 106th, when there's even less reason to think he was posturing.

While some Senator's rankings are fairly stable from Congress to Congress, there are plenty whose rankings shift 10-15 slots or more with no overwhelming outside explanation. (Durbin, for example, with a safe seat and no ambitions, was 2nd in the 109th, compared to 16th in the 108th.) Sometimes it's more a matter of the sorts of things that come up for roll call votes, and/or the manueverings of others.

Plus, as I've said several times, you can't directly compare votes of Senators from states that are as politically distinct as Illinois and North Carolina. Need I remind you of LBJ?  The most racially liberal President in our history?

Here's the bottom line: Folks like me heard Obama's rhetoric before entering the Senate, and we had good reason to expect him to show up in the party's liberal wing. By the numbers, he doesn't.

OTOH, Edwards comes from a Southern State.  We see him exceeding expectations, given where he comes from.  We compare the numbers for the two, and find that the difference is almost entirely due to one third of his tenure.  Average them out, and the difference comes to 7.3 ((20+24+38)/3)-20)-- high 20s vs. low 20s. Not a big difference given (a) the states they represent and (b) the fact that this puts both of them in the mid-range of Dems.

Strictly by the numbers, Obama is modestly more progressive.  But he's not a progressive, he's a moderate liberal, just like Clinton, just a tad bit more liberal than her.  Edwards, too, is like Clinton, just a tad bit more conservative.  Thus, when people talk as if there are enormous differences between them, they are talking about impressions.  And once we open the door to impressions, we have to consider Obama's "can't we all just get along" triangulating talk vs. Edwards' "Two Americas" polarizing talk--the latter of which is clearly more progressive from where I sit.

Now, there are certainly circumstances in which I'd say that Obama's approach is superior.  I certainly do think we need to bring America together.  But economic populism ala Edwards is a way to do that, too.  And given the underlying economic polarization, I find Edwards not only more progressive, but more reality-based as well.

If our economics were more like 1972, this would not be the case.


by Paul Rosenberg on Sun Dec 17, 2006 at 05:38:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I've Since Posted Edwards' Full Record (none / 0)

FWIW, Progressive Punch has Obama as the 8th most liberal Senator.
http://www.progressivepunch.com/members. jsp?member=ILIII&search=selectScore& amp;chamber=Senate&zip=&x=68& ;y=13

As far as I can tell, the biggest problem with his voting record is that he tends to be overly obsequious wrt the President's nominations.  Not a problem if he were to be President.  There are a few votes where I'm seriously disappointed like the final Patriot Act renewal cloture vote, but I really doubt that Edwards would've been among the handful of Senators to join Feingold were he in the Senate.

As for the system you're using, like I was saying, the 108th Congress isn't really relevant since he missed tons of votes that'd make his running for the Dem nomination for President more difficult.  And it is funny that you're accusing me of spinning the numbers, when you keep bringing up the "but he's from NC" canard (again, not relevant for the 108th).

"These figures--as well as decades of public survey data--show that clarifying the polarization in terms of basic economic realities (which can most definitely be discussed in moral, even religious terms) is a very potent political strategy, with the potential to produce New Deal era-style majorities, and a restoration of the sort of egalitarian consensus exhibited by Eisenhower & Rockefeller Republicans."

But he isn't adopting the opposition's values to get a bigger slice of the middle as folks like Nelson Rockefeller or Clinton have done.  Obama is looking for an end polarization in discourse.  Polarized discourse stops us from increasing our tent.  Obama's gift is his ability to talk about progressive values in a way that's very hard to argue with.  To an extent that's unrivaled by any living politician in the country.

"If there's a child on the south side of Chicago who can't read, that matters to me, even if it's not my child.

If there's a senior citizen somewhere who can't pay for their prescription drugs, and has to choose between medicine and the rent, that makes my life poorer, even if it's not my grandparent.

If there's an Arab-American family being rounded up without benefit of an attorney or due process, that threatens my civil liberties.

It is that fundamental belief -- it is that fundamental belief -- I am my brother's keeper, I am my sisters' keeper -- that makes this country work."

That is not tacking to the middle.  On economics or anything else.


by Ramo on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 10:33:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's Not The Only, Or Even Best Comparison (none / 0)

Paul, I don't see the rankings for the 109th...


by Ramo on Sun Dec 17, 2006 at 01:42:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's Not The Only, Or Even Best Comparison (none / 0)

I'm not sure what you're asking.  Edwards wasn't in the 109th.  Obama was, and tied for 20th.  Data is here.


by Paul Rosenberg on Sun Dec 17, 2006 at 02:11:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's Not The Only, Or Even Best Comparison (none / 0)

Isn't the reason for Edwards surge in 108th that he was campaigning and only made it to the Senate for the important votes where he voted party line? Kerry was very much higher on the list that year also.


The history of the left is a history of purists betraying the progressive movement so that they can feel good about their righteous selves.
by Populism2008 on Sun Dec 17, 2006 at 07:07:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Not A Surge (none / 0)

He was 24th in the 106th.  And he was 20th, compared to Clinton and Kerry tied for 21st in the 108th.  And he represented North Carolina, not Illinois.

A tenure of three Congreses is a not a long time to locate someone for certain.  One Congress--as Obama has--is even less.  Nonetheless, if Obama's rank were 10th, I'd say that was a pretty good indication that Obama was solidly more progressive.  Instead, he's tied for 20th, pretty much in the middle of the pack, but slightly to the left of center.  In a full term, that could well turn out to be his most conservtive term.  Or it could be norm.  Right now, we don't know.  All we know is his one Congress record.


by Paul Rosenberg on Sun Dec 17, 2006 at 02:02:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: CLARK may be the Progressive candidate (none / 0)

I believe that if Wes Clark decides to run next month, he will be the favorite among majority of Progressives.

His strong Anti-Iraq War stance, his strong reputation for ethics, minorities, national security, & foreign policy will make him very attractive.

Clark also would have the unique ability of attracting former Mark Warner & Evan Bayh supporters in the South & Midwest.

He is one candidate who could Unite Progressives & Moderate Democrats.

His resume is also more impressive than Edwards.
Edwards biggest drawback is his vote on Iraq.

Clark can go after McCain or any Republican on Iraq. Edwards won't be able to use that Issue in the general.
 


by livyoga on Sat Dec 16, 2006 at 07:16:19 PM EST

Re: CLARK may be the Progressive candidate (3.00 / 1)

I'm starting to get the feeling that Clark isn't going to run.  I could be wrong, but I wouldn't be surprised if he sees the writing on the wall and gets out like Bayh did.  He just isn't gaining support like the big three are.  This is bad news for him because he's not a complete dark horse after running in 04 for President.  If his support doesn't start to materialize soon I don't think he'll even enter the race.  I definitly don't think he'll wait until late to enter either since he's already said he wouldn't make that mistake again.  I like Clark, but my money is on him bowing out in the next month or two.  


by blueryan on Sat Dec 16, 2006 at 07:30:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: CLARK may be the Progressive candidate (none / 0)

I agree Bluery.

If Clark wants in, he has to announce by January.

I know for a fact that his huge core of supporters in the netroots from '04 are waiting impatiently for an announcement soon.

I hope Clark runs for the sake of giving people more choices in our party.

I heard that many of the ex-generals who denounced Bush & endorsed Democrats & former military vets like Webb, Murtha are privately hoping that General Clark runs.

He would immediately have so much credibility on the Iraq issue & can attack McCain or any of the GOP.  


by livyoga on Sat Dec 16, 2006 at 07:39:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: CLARK may be the Progressive candidate (none / 0)

Even if all he does is declare for president, and give a bunch of speeches attacking McCain and the GOP, that would be great.  As we've seen before, your words get ignored entirely by the press unless "presidential candidate" can be attached to your name.  Wes Clark wouldn't have to seriously organize for the primaries to be able to do his country a great service.  He does have the credibility to soften up the GOP, IF the press is paying any attention at all, which he could force by "declaring" for president.

Hope he does it.  Doubt he will.


by texas dem on Sun Dec 17, 2006 at 12:17:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: CLARK may be the Progressive candidate (none / 0)

No sign that Clark is running. Might be a great guy but this is the second cycle that he's just not been sufficiently organised to give himself a chance.


by kundalini on Sat Dec 16, 2006 at 08:33:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: CLARK may be the Progressive candidate (none / 0)

And that's always been my problem with him--he needs some experience running for office and winning before I'll trust him in a national election.


"You say the world has lost it's love I say embrace what it's made of" -Dar Williams
by Valatan on Sun Dec 17, 2006 at 02:27:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I Agree, Too (none / 0)

Clark has impressive positives on paper, but it's not showing up in the polls.  I think you're right that he will decide soon, and bowing out is the most likely.

This also probably means he wouldn't get the VP nod, which could really help Obama, for example.


by Paul Rosenberg on Sun Dec 17, 2006 at 12:21:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: CLARK may be the Progressive candidate (3.00 / 1)

Obama.

Iraq war. Check.

"Candidate who could unite progressive and moderate Democrats." Check.


Visit DebateScoop
by demondeac on Sat Dec 16, 2006 at 08:12:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama in Red & Purple states (3.00 / 2)

Obama, just like Hillary will be a weak candidates in Red & Purple states.

All this Obama mania is among segments of the Democratic party in Blue states.

You can pretty much scratch off Purple states like Virginia, Arkansas, Tennesse, West Virginia, Arizona, Montana, Iowa, Missouri,North Carolina in the General election if Obama is the nominee. He will even have difficulty in states like Colorado & Wisconsin.

That's reality.

Also expect our 1st term House Democrats in Red districts to be in deep trouble if a Obama or Hillary emerge as candidates. Same goes for potential strong Senate candidates in Red states.

That's the factor that a Mark Warner, Edwards, Bayh, or Clark brings that a Hillary or Obama do not.

Among the 1st tier sure people running, only John Edwards can campaign as an Asset in All 50 states. If Clark runs, he can also freely & effectively campaign in all 50 states.

What's ironic is the State Dem chair of MS,TN, AR, AL together with the Governor of WY all expressed hope recently that the next Democratic nominee will Finally be able to campaign as an asset in their state & help democrats in their states.

Instead of state & House Democrats in these states avoiding the national ticket like 00,04 & 1988.

Only Bill Clinton broke that in his 1992 & 1996 run. He went on to carry Montana, Arizona, AR,TN,LA,CO,WV,IA. He also kept it close in states like NC.

We need a general candidate. Not a candidate for the primary alone!


by livyoga on Sat Dec 16, 2006 at 08:57:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama in Red &amp; Purple states (3.00 / 0)

"That's reality."

That's a weak argument.

Obama will crush McCain in purple states. Everyone seems to love him except for the 20% GOP base.


The history of the left is a history of purists betraying the progressive movement so that they can feel good about their righteous selves.
by Populism2008 on Sat Dec 16, 2006 at 09:31:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama in Red &amp;amp; Purple states (none / 0)

More likely than not, the risk factor of running a black person in the South and the Mountain States will be overstated. But it would be naive to just assume that it is not a risk.


by blues on Sat Dec 16, 2006 at 10:29:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama in Red &amp;amp;amp; Purple states (none / 0)

To words HAROLD FORD


by orin76 on Sat Dec 16, 2006 at 11:42:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama in Red & Purple states (3.00 / 1)

If your argument is that Obama will only pull 48% in Tennessee, (which is what Harold Ford pulled), then I think you're arguing FOR Obama and not against.  48% in Tennessee means we've already won Ohio, Missouri, and Florida.

Try again.

Incidentally, I in all seriousness believe that Obama would be very competitive in many swing states, particularly Ohio, Missouri, Florida, Nevada, and Colorado.  The first three because of significant black turnout in large urban areas, the last two because the admittedly large white vote is not Southernized at all.


by texas dem on Sun Dec 17, 2006 at 12:22:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama in Red &amp; Purple states (none / 0)

After a lot of watching the racial situation, I think it is possible that the folks in the South and the Mountains may actually not dislike blacks as much as they dislike whites who support black rights. Of course, they do love to lock the blacks up in their jails, etc.


by blues on Sun Dec 17, 2006 at 12:33:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You are Forgetting the White Votes we lose (3.00 / 1)

Yes, you're right. We may see an increase of 2%,5% even 10% of black voters if Obama is the nominee.

But you are forgetting the larger % of white voters in Red, Purple & battleground states who will not vote for Obama because of who he is.

These are conservative White Democrats, white moderate & conservative independents.

In the South & Rocky Mountain states, its called Ticket Splitting.

Conservative White Democrats vote for Democrats as Governor in states like VA,TN,AR,AZ,OK,NC,LA, WY,MT,WV,KS by huge margins but vote Republican when it comes to the Presidency.

Only Bill Clinton broke that mold when he successfully carried states like AZ,MT,TN,AR,LA,WV,LA etc.

If you have an Obama, you can pretty much write 0ff these states. It won't even be competitive.

We're going to have the Kerry strategy again of trying to win the WH through the Northeast & some selected states in the West & the Midwest.

That also destroys the 50 state strategy & our gains in many of these Red, Purple states.


by livyoga on Sun Dec 17, 2006 at 12:50:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You are Forgetting the White Votes we lose (none / 0)

Dude, you're talking about GOP base states.  MT, LA,  AZ, TN?  No, the Dem (ANY DEM!) is not going to win those, and even if he/she did, it wouldn't matter because the election would be long over.

Not only do we not need a candidate that can carry the GOP base, we also don't have one.  Instead we have candidates who can carry places like Ohio Missouri Florida Colorado and Nevada, and can stay close, if not actually victorious, in the other states.  If you're talking about winning Arizona, Tennessee, and Montana, you're setting the bar unfairly, nay ridiculously high.  Clinton won those states in an absolute fluke of a three-way election.    I dare you to suggest Clinton would have carried Montana or Arizona in 1992 without Perot running.

And yes, I do think we can win those states, but only if 2008 is a blowout, and there is no point in sitting around talking about whether Candidate X or Y can win a blowout.  Running up the score doesn't matter.  Whether Candidate X or Y can win matters, and I contend Obama (and Edwards, and probably Clinton actually) can win.


by texas dem on Sun Dec 17, 2006 at 08:48:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You are Forgetting the White Votes we lose (3.00 / 0)

We need to contest some of those states in 2008. In 2004 Kerry made trips to the Deep South states such as Louisiana and Mississippi early on during the primaries to try to head off Edwards and Clark and he won all the primaries in the South except 1 or 2. He drew big crowds and ended up with a lot of volunteers. Toward the general election he was polling in the mid 40s in some state polls in the South but the campaign pulled out of all but a very narrow group of states for an electoral play the same as Gore did (none in the South). Campaigns in AR, TN, and other states were begging for any kind of assistance they could get such as radio spots, robo calls, anything. That allowed the GOP to free up all of their resources to concentrate on their target states. While Kerry would not have won many states in the South he might have been able to pull one or two such as Arkansas. In 2008 we will have an even better shot because Obama, Edwards, or Clinton will likely poll better than Kerry did. A combination ticket such as Clinton/Obama, Edwards/Obama etc. will poll even better. The point I am trying to make is we need to contest some of the states where the Democratic nominee is polling between 40% and 45% and where the demographics show additional gains are possible. We need to apply Howard Dean's 50 state strategy to the presidential campaign in some manner or another.  


BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Sun Dec 17, 2006 at 11:23:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You're missing the whole point (none / 0)

You missed the whole point.

No one is suggesting that a Democrat needs to carry TN,LA,MT,AR,WV,NC,INetcetcetc

But we have to be competitive enough in those states if you want to :

1) Protect 1st term democrats in these red states
2) expand the majority in the House, Senate & the Governorship by winning in these Red states.

That's the whole point. No one here, not a single person here is saying that we should carry Alabama, Mississippi, Indiana, Montana, LA, AR Oklahoma, etc.

That's the point. That's what the State Dem chairs of these states are complaining about. That's what they are worried about again.

Remember, Bush Won the Popular vote over Kerry despite a very close electoral count because they won landslides in uncontested Red states in the South, Rocky Mountains & Midwest. And any Democrat who was running for the Senate or House went down in defeat since Bush carried these uncontested states by Huge Margins.

We had strong candidates in places like NC,SC, OK but they were all defeated because the dem national party had nothing to offer in support. Kerry was a liability in those states.

That's the same exact dilemma of Hillary & Obama.

They would be a liability in all these so called Red & Purple states.

An Edwards, Warner, Bayh, Clark, Vilsack would be very competitive in states like Virginia, Arizona, West Virginia, Arkansas,Colorado, Iowa.

Plus, we get to attract enough support in places like LA,OK,MS,AL to prevent total landslides by the GOP.

A Hillary or Obama, these states would be a waste of money to even attempt to win. It also leaves Dems in these states abandoned again.

In Indiana alone, 3 Freshmen Dems would be very vulnerable if we had a Hillary or Obama at the top.

Why? Do you think its some kind of coincidence that people in places like IN,CO,AR,TN,OK<MT elect statewide Democrats in the mold of Bayh,Salazar, Pryor, Henry, Baucus?</p>

by livyoga on Sun Dec 17, 2006 at 01:53:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You're missing the whole point (none / 0)

Obama represents a midwestern state.  He should know reasonably well how to compete with republicans in Missouri, Iowa and Wisconsin.


"You say the world has lost it's love I say embrace what it's made of" -Dar Williams
by Valatan on Sun Dec 17, 2006 at 02:47:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You're missing the whole point (none / 0)

There is no way to mold every presidential candidate every 4 years so they will fit into each and every possible scenario for each state. I think there is a great danger in doing that. I don't think Clinton or Obama would cause the damage that some think they would. At this point that is mostly speculation. People do vote split tickets in every state. In almost every election on a statewide basis there are Democrats and Republicans elected.


BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Sun Dec 17, 2006 at 06:39:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama in Red &amp;amp;amp; Purple states (none / 0)

>>>Obama will crush McCain in purple states. Everyone seems to love him except for the 20% GOP base.

Populism,

everybody seems to love him? Who exactly is everybody?

Show me one poll that shows Obama beating McCain?

We are not everybody. Remember that. You are preaching to the choir here. If we are everybody, Howard Dean would be President today.

Its amazing how some here purposely & deliberately Ignore Obama's race.

Arkansas is not Massachusetts. West Virginia is not Illinois.

There's a reason this nation only has two black Governors. There's a reason we only have one black senator.

If Obama ever gets to the point of being close to the nomination or actually gets to the general- his race becomes a big factor whether you like it or not.

We can all feel good , symbolic & color blind- but that's not reality. Every single progressive here is to the Left of middle america.


by livyoga on Sat Dec 16, 2006 at 11:45:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama in Red &Purple states (3.00 / 0)

You're right: the reason is the Voting Rights Act, which lumps black voters into supermajority districts, with the result that black legislators almost never are called to appeal to a wide slice of the electorate.  There are virtually zero black legislators representing, say, 25% black districts, partly because there are very few 25% black districts.  

Note that Deval Patrick (and Michael Steele, and Lynn Swann) never held elected office of any kind.  Had they run in "black districts", they'd have been ghettoized politically.  

The only alternatives are hyperambitious men like Harold Ford and Artur Davis who position themselves from the very very beginning of their career for statewide office.  There's not many of those out there.


by texas dem on Sun Dec 17, 2006 at 12:29:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The Exception That Proves the Point (3.00 / 0)

The 5th CD, here in Kansas City, MO.  Held for many years by Richard Bolling; then for ten years by an African-American, Alan Wheat; then for ten years by a liberal white woman, Karen, McCarthy; and now again by an African-American, Rev. Emanuel Cleaver.  It is 23% black.  The congressional district with the fewest black voters that is represented by a black.  Both Wheat and Cleaver were/are liberal bridge-builders who had to reach a broad spectrum of the Democrats to win the primary (Dems always win the general).


by Arthurkc on Sun Dec 17, 2006 at 12:37:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

This Is Well-Stated (3.00 / 2)

It's easy to go overboard either way on this, but this strikes a nice balance.

It's good to remember that white people like thinking of themselves as open-minded and non-racist.  Part of Obama's popularity right now comes from that fact.  But when it gets closer to actually voting, things start to shift.  The "but" starts to show--"He's really articulate, but..." or "He's really sincere, but..."  And, as with Harold Ford or with Tom Bradley (who lost the California governor's race in 1982, despite leading all the way through the last polls), there will be those who never show their "but" in public.

This absolutely doesn't mean we shouldn't nominate him.  But we shouldn't delude ourselves in the process.  His race will be a factor.  We may well be far enough along that it's a positive factor inside the Democratic Party, and even in the blue states. But it will make things hard in the red states.  How hard, we can't yet say.  But ignoring reality doesn't make it go away.  OTOH, face reality, and you can start doing something about it.


by Paul Rosenberg on Sun Dec 17, 2006 at 12:32:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This Is Well-Stated (none / 0)

Race will be some factor but not nearly as much as it has been in the past. I think experience would be the factor that would hurt Obama the most if he was at the top of the ticket.


BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Sun Dec 17, 2006 at 02:34:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This Is Well-Stated (none / 0)

As someone said upthread: if he can match Ford's numbers in TN then he will win Ohio and Florida.


The history of the left is a history of purists betraying the progressive movement so that they can feel good about their righteous selves.
by Populism2008 on Sun Dec 17, 2006 at 07:12:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ford run in the biggest Dem Wave & Lost (none / 0)

Populism,

Let me remind you.

Harold Ford run in what turned out to be the biggest Political Wave in the last 30 years. Bigger than even the 1994 GOP wave.

And he lost !

He lost despite all surveys showing that more Tennesseans agreed with him much more than his opponent.

He lost despite a very weak & lousy Republican candidate in Corker.

He lost despite a very low approval rating for Bush in TN.

He lost despite a Landslide victory by his "White" running mate Governor Brandesen.

He lost despite contesting an open seat in a National Democratic Wave.

He lost despite a near perfect campaign.

He lost despite having the good looks, the charm & the moderate/conservative values that fits his state.

And he lost despite a record number of African-American voters in & around Memphis for an off year election.

That's the facts. Its not that he got 48%. Its that he lost despite of all the Factors working for him.

The white democrat won by a landslide by 16% more votes than Ford got. Close to 29,000 registered TN Democrats alone voted for Brendesen but crossed partylines to vote for Corker over Ford in the biggest Democratic Wave in 30 years? I'm not even counting Independent whites who voted for Brendesen but crossed to vote for Corker over Ford.

If White Democrats alone in these states can't even vote for a highly qualified, attractive Black democrat as their Senator- You think these people would vote for a black man for President?

IF Ford was White, he would have been the next senator of TN. He knows that! Even Joe Scarborough, Pat Buchanan know that.


by livyoga on Sun Dec 17, 2006 at 02:20:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This Is Well-Stated (none / 0)

Ford got his numbers in TN by running waaaaaay to the right.  If Obama runs on the type of platform that Ford used, then I have little interest in him.


"You say the world has lost it's love I say embrace what it's made of" -Dar Williams
by Valatan on Sun Dec 17, 2006 at 02:33:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama in Red &... (none / 0)

livyoga says:

Every single progressive here is to the Left of middle America.

In fact, I just do not believe this anymore. There are just too many polls and such that turn up slews of Americans who insist they are conservative, but who turn out to have views that really support alternative ways to accomplish things that progressives want too.

Viewed from some angles, we progressives can look astonishingly conservative. In many ways, the criminal neocons have provided progressives and paleo-conservatives with a common enemy. The extent of this phenomenon has frankly shocked me. There are thousands of paleo-conservative websites inhabited by people who are 100% prepared to string up the neocons! It is just stunning.


by blues on Sun Dec 17, 2006 at 12:54:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama in Red &amp;... (none / 0)

Blues,

You right. There are different factions within the conservative world just like we have multiple factions within the progressive movement.

But when we start talking about social issues that are dear to majority of progressives such as Gay Marriage, Religion, Affirmative Action, & Guns- that's when the line is drawn.

These are the issues that cause " Ticket Splitting" in the South, Rocky Mountains & parts of the midwest.

Voters in these states have learned to SEPARATE Local/ State Democrats from National " Liberal" Democrats.

These is why the Baucus's, Bayh's, Salazar's,Pryor's, Lincoln's, Easley's,Warner's Brandesen's, Henry's, Nelson's, Machin's, Byrd's, Rockefeller's,  Freudenthal's Continue to Win easily & Big in these states. But in the same breath, National democrats for President continue to Lose Big!

The Disconnect between Red/ Purple States & National Democrats is magnified every time we fill national tickets with the likes of Hillary, Kerry or Obama.

Can Obama or Hillary win it all? Of course! Without a doubt! Any Democrat who emerges as the nominee has a fair shot.

But it is also without a doubt that certain dems like Hillary and Obama will be " Bad" for these Red/Purple states. It won't even be a contest in these states. Thus, that hurts the state party & local & state candidates.


by livyoga on Sun Dec 17, 2006 at 02:36:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama in Red &amp;amp;... (none / 0)

Many of those same arguments were made against Dean as well when he ran in 2004. The sky would definitely fall if he was the nominee. When Dean took over as party chair those same arguments were made against a 50 state strategy. Many thought it a waste of money to even think of running candidates in red states.

We have to run real candidates not people who do impersonations of candidates that might sell based on what polls and pundits say. If the convention chooses Clinton, Obama, Edwards, Clark, or even Kucinich I plan to do what I can to help give them the best shot possible at winning the electoral votes.    


BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Sun Dec 17, 2006 at 06:53:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Opening Still Remains for Consensus Progressiv (3.00 / 2)

Evidence is thin for the central thesis. Atrios says so? As Jerome and others up thread note, Obama is well positioned to capture the progressive hearts and minds.

Hell, he is a progressive.

His only sin seems to be that he tries to  bring the progressive message to a wider audience.


Visit DebateScoop
by demondeac on Sat Dec 16, 2006 at 08:06:32 PM EST

Edwards the Progressive? (3.00 / 1)

Look, I like John Edwards a lot, I appreciate his work on poverty, but to quote the Wolf from Pulp Fiction, "lets not start sucking each other's dicks just yet."
As others have accurately pointed out, Edwards's voting record in the Senate- the most legitimate way of judging someone's ideology, not rhetoric but what they actually did- was more conservative than Hillary or Barack. So to then say that Obama is a chronic triangulator because he looks at both sides of an issue or that him and Hillary are nothing for progressives to get excited about but Edwards is... well thats just plain foolish.
Furthermore, Edwards voted for the war and Obama was against it from the beginning. I appreciate him calling it a mistake now, but actions speak louder than words.
Again, this is in no way a pro-Obama or anti-Edwards post. Being a young person from Illinois, I do certainly have a pro-Obama bias. I like Edwars too, but I'm a little bit baffled that he's gotten such an easy ride from "progressives" here. He was not progressive when he served in the Senate, and that's that.
by AC4508 on Sat Dec 16, 2006 at 08:25:08 PM EST

Mountains or Molehills? (3.00 / 1)

Okay, I've been moved to compile Edwards' full DW-Nominate record.  The 106th is not in the same ordered format, so I had to paste it into a spreadsheet and sort.  His ratings were:

106th: 24.
107th: 38.
108th: 20.

Two of the three are virtually identical to Obama's tie for 20th in the 109th.  There is a significant difference in the third.  But considering that North Carolina is much redder than Illinois, the difference between them is effectively close to nil. Neither of them ranks in the progressive wing of the party on the basis of their voting record in the Senate.  They rank as moderate liberals.  There are surely other factors to take into account, but you can't argue for a huge difference based on their voting records.


by Paul Rosenberg on Sun Dec 17, 2006 at 01:11:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Opening Still Remains for Consensus Progressiv (3.00 / 0)

With Bayh, Feingold, Daschle, and Warner all dropping out I am starting to doubt there is much possibility there will be a fourth player. Another candidate would have to move very fast at this point to catch up with Clinton, Obama, and Edwards in the polls and fundraising. I think Clinton and Obama are in very good position. I tend to think of Obama being more of the conservative than Clinton based on many of the things he has said.

Unless Vilsack does surprisingly well in Iowa or Richardson gets in and does well in Nevada I think we are looking at Clinton and Obama winning the early caucus/primary states. Edwards will try to make a stand in South Carolina and perhaps Nevada too but I think it will be difficult for him to get past the Obama momentum at this point especially in states where black voters are a high percentage of the total.  


BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Sat Dec 16, 2006 at 09:08:59 PM EST

Re: Opening Still Remains for Consensus Progressiv (none / 0)

"I tend to think of Obama being more of the conservative than Clinton based on many of the things he has said."

Like what? Because he tries to reach religious people with a progressive message tailored to their worldview?


The history of the left is a history of purists betraying the progressive movement so that they can feel good about their righteous selves.
by Populism2008 on Sat Dec 16, 2006 at 09:34:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Opening Still Remains for Consensus Progressiv (none / 0)

One reason for the religious stuff with Obama is because he knew his middle name was going to be an issue.  
One of his advisors says that he is religious in the way most are but, belongs to a liberal church.
He talks alot about it to signal he is a christian so the right is defanged in thier Max Cleland style smears.  Sorta like, defuse it before it begins.
Also, when he went to talk to those evangelicals, he did not pander or alter his views.  He told them he believed his way.  They respected that.
by vwcat on Sun Dec 17, 2006 at 12:32:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Opening Still Remains for Consensus Progressiv (3.00 / 3)

I would have thought Edwards had an excellent chance of winning Iowa as he has lead every poll there for the last year. He has also put in the legwork with numerous visits to the state, which I suspect will be rewarded come caucus day.


by kundalini on Sat Dec 16, 2006 at 09:40:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Opening Still Remains for Consensus Progressiv (none / 0)

I hope there will be some new polls out soon for IA, NH, SC, and NV to see what effect Obama will have.


BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Sun Dec 17, 2006 at 02:38:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Opening Still Remains for Consensus Progressiv (1.00 / 1)

John Edwards voting record is much more conservative than Obama's. Just saying.

Sorry to interrupt the swiftboating of our most talented guy since JFK.


The history of the left is a history of purists betraying the progressive movement so that they can feel good about their righteous selves.
by Populism2008 on Sat Dec 16, 2006 at 09:21:18 PM EST

They're all pretty good votes (3.00 / 1)

Nat Journal Composite Liberal Ranking

Obama 83%

http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_rating_c ategory.php?can_id=BS030017&type=cat egory&category=National%2BJournal&am p;go.x=10&go.y=15

Clinton 80%

http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_rating_c ategory.php?can_id=WNY99268&type=cat egory&category=National%2BJournal&am p;go.x=16&go.y=13

Kerry 87%

http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_rating_c ategory.php?can_id=S0421103&type=cat egory&category=National%2BJournal&am p;go.x=7&go.y=8

Bayh 71%

http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_rating_c ategory.php?can_id=CNIP9107&type=cat egory&category=National%2BJournal&am p;go.x=12&go.y=8

Biden 80%

http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_rating_c ategory.php?can_id=S0150103&type=cat egory&category=National%2BJournal&am p;go.x=12&go.y=10

Edwards 76.7% (average)
Edwards 94.5% (2003)

http://clips.mediamatters.org/items/2004 07090002

Compare:

Byrd: 66%
Kennedy: 97%
Specter: 53%

All ratings from 2005 except (obviously) Edwards.


by stevehigh on Sat Dec 16, 2006 at 10:50:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Opening Still Remains for Consensus Progressiv (none / 0)

I suggest you google and check the record of Obama in the state and the us senate befoe lumping him with the likes of Hillary.


by vwcat on Sat Dec 16, 2006 at 10:34:26 PM EST

Clinon vs. Obama--Votes (none / 0)

Obama and Clinton are pretty darned close in terms of their voting records. The roll-call scoring (DW-Nominate) for the 109th Congress shows the 30 most liberal members as:
BOXER	    1.000
DURBIN	    2.000
FEINGOLD    3.000
HARKIN	    4.000
KENNEDY     5.000
LAUTENBERG  6.000
CORZINE     7.500
SARBANES    7.500
WYDEN	    9.500
REED	    9.500
LEAHY	   11.500
JEFFORDS   11.500
MURRAY	   13.000
DAYTON	   15.000
INOUYE	   15.000
LEVIN	   15.000
DODD	   17.500
CANTWELL   17.500
MENENDEZ   19.000
OBAMA      20.500
AKAKA	   20.500
MIKULSKI   22.000
SCHUMER    23.500
CLINTON    23.500
KERRY	   25.500
FEINSTEIN  25.500
STABENOW   27.000
BAYH	   28.000
BIDEN	   29.000
LIEBERMAN  30.000

by Paul Rosenberg on Sun Dec 17, 2006 at 12:47:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Gore and/or Dean (none / 0)

Why it is so difficult for you to say THAT?
Just repeat after me: Gore & Dean!
Don't tell me they are not running - if you want
to save the country THAN beg them to run.
We need at least 1 of these 2 in 2008...
by WeNeed3rdParty on Sun Dec 17, 2006 at 09:59:57 AM EST

Re: Gore and/or Dean (none / 0)

Hasn't Dean overtly said that he's not running?  I could have sworn that he did.


"You say the world has lost it's love I say embrace what it's made of" -Dar Williams
by Valatan on Sun Dec 17, 2006 at 02:35:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Opening Still Remains for Consensus Progressiv (none / 0)

Most of these ratings are not useful in determining where a candidate will be in a campaign for President.   Remember Gov. Dean was seen as a centrist and had received the praise of the DLC prior to his presidential campaign.  

When you look at the 1992 campaign for the Democratic nomination -- the most important event in deciding the outcome probably was Jesse Jackson's decision not to run.   This left the African American community wide open to Bill Clinton.

Edwards needs Obama in this race big time.   Obama pulls Hillary down -- that does not mean she will lose -- but it does mean that everyone else has a chance -- including Obama.

The other thing I would point out is that one of the toughest things to do in American politics is to maintain a lead in Iowa for a whole year with the rest of the field trying to tear you down.  That is the position Edwards finds himself in today.   In truly contested nomination fights only Vice President Mondale has gone wire to wire with a lead in Iowa.   I ran Iowa for him in 1984 the only other wire to wire performance was Gore in 2000 but I am not sure it counts as contested.


by JoeTrippi on Sun Dec 17, 2006 at 10:00:25 AM EST

Why no talk about Kucinich? (none / 0)

We're saying there's an "Opening Still Remains for Consensus Progressive Candidate" yet the majority of this discussion excludes a true progressive in this race, Dennis Kucinich.

Why is that?

The primary focus of this discussion has been about Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama, yet neither of them have officially declared they're running but we treat them as if they were. Whereas Kucinich is a candidate who's officially declared - and who's record is a true progressive- and people leave him out of the conversation?

This is not fair and we need to be careful not to "box out" or "pigeon hole" other legitimate candidates from the discussion. I don't want to say it makes us look hypocritical when we exclude some that would fit the bill what we're claim we're looking for: a presidental candidate with progressive values but this is an obvious blind spot that we as progressive Democrats have that needs to be addressed.

Perhaps we should talk more about what Kucinich has to offer and IMHO, he's putting himself out there and saying some great things to bring our troops home.

Just something to consider.
 


by Brattlerouser on Mon Dec 18, 2006 at 08:35:35 AM EST


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