2008 Metrics: National Polls and Name ID

For me, there is a bright side to Russ Feingold not running for President. Now, I can go through numbers and conduct analysis on the state of the campaign without anyone accusing me of bias. And so, I happily bring you my first edition of 2008 metrics. In this edition, I will look at the relationship between name ID and national Democratic primary polls.

Yesterday, there was a diary on the latest national primary poll from Pew. Many of the comments centered around the impact of national name recognition on the imaginary trial heat numbers (I write "imaginary" both because the field has not been set yet and because there is no national primary). Some commenters argued that the poll was all name ID, while others argued that name ID played a role, but since not all high name ID potential candidates were performing equally, other factors were at play besides name ID. I think the latter commenters are definitely correct, as I believe an analysis of the five national primary polls over the past month, Pew, Gallup, CNN, McLaughlin, and Rasmussen, reveals.

Across the five polls, there were only five candidates included in every question: Clinton, Obama, Edwards, Gore and Kerry. Looking at the numbers for Democrats and Democratic leaners for each of the five polls, you receive the following average for every candidate:

National Trial Heat Mean
Clinton: 30%
Obama: 20%
Gore: 11%
Edwards: 10%
Kerry: 8%
(Note: the Pew numbers used for this average were two parts Democrats, and one part Independents)

In January of 2008, all of the major candidates will have equal name ID in places like Iowa and New Hampshire. However, right now, that is not the case nationally. According to Qunnipiac's latest national thermometer poll of leading political figures from both parties, here was the national name ID for these five candidates among Democrats and Independents:

National Name ID Average
Clinton: 99%
Gore: 97%
Kerry: 94%
Edwards: 75%
Obama: 47%

Clearly, some candidates are over-performing compared to their current national name ID, and other candidates are under-performing. If the mean trial heat number for each candidate was divided by his or her name recognition number, the results would be as follows:

Known Universe Metric
Obama: 42%
Clinton: 30%
Edwards: 13%
Gore: 11%
Kerry: 9%

I call this the "known universe" metric because this is the percentage of supporters each candidate is winning within the universe of people who know the candidate well enough to form an opinion about him or her. It is a crude means of normalizing trial heat numbers for name recognition discrepancies. Right now, 42% of Democrats and Democratic leaners who know about Barack Obama are willing to give him their preliminary support for the Democratic nomination. That is clearly a very good position to be in right now.

I do not think that this metric means Obama should be considered the favorite. What it means is that he has done an extremely good job appealing to people so far. However, rising from a 47% name recognition to a 99% name recognition is a path filled with many dangers, and there is absolutely no guarantee he could maintain this current pace. Clinton, Kerry and Gore can probably tell Obama about what happens to your national image in the age of the Republican Noise Machine during the time period when your name ID rises from 40-45% all the way to 95%-100%. It rarely ends well for Democrats.

I also think that this analysis shows that Clinton's current leads in the imaginary national primary is not based just on name recognition. Clearly, she is well ahead of both Kerry and Gore, who both have name ID's near Clinton's level. Right now, she is winning a much higher percentage of her known universe than are either Gore or Kerry.

Now, does that mean it will stay like this? Of course not. Support at this point is extremely soft. Further, the field is not even set yet. Yet further, there is over a year of campaigning between now and the first primary contest. Perhaps most importantly, there is no national primary. Right now, at this very early date, all I can note is that Clinton's support is currently not just based just on name ID, and Barack Obama appears to have the most potential for upward movement. However, over the next fourteen months, everything can change.

Display:


Re: 2008 Metrics: National Polls and Name ID (3.00 / 1)

Over a year out from the Iowa caucus, none of this means anything. Remember when we thought Gore was a shoo-in for '04?

He didn't announce he wasn't running until the holiday season 2002.

And then Lieberman took the lead in all the polls...until, well, this guy named Howard Dean popped up...


by raginillinoian on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 05:06:48 PM EST

Re: 2008 Metrics: National Polls and Name ID (none / 0)

And lets not forget that if we were to base the outcome on polls like this over 18 months out, Joe Lieberman would have been the nominee.


Follow Texas Politics at Burnt Orange Report
by KTinTX on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 05:08:55 PM EST

Re: 2008 Metrics: National Polls and Name ID (none / 0)

Does that include the "known universe" correction?


The words of the prophets are written on the subway halls
   and tenement halls
by BruceMcF on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 09:55:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Mr. Lieberman, you're no Hillary Clinton (none / 0)

CBS asked Democrats who could name a Democratic candidate for president in May of 2003:

No, cannot recall any
64%
Joe Lieberman
10%
John Kerry
5%
Richard Gephardt
5%
Bob Graham
2%
John Edwards
4%
Al Sharpton
4%
Howard Dean
2%
Others
5%


by stevehigh on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 11:33:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

What About the Left? (3.00 / 1)

Interesting post & a more rational way of looking at the current numbers. In discussing '08, I still find it astonishing that we're not looking more closely at who will capture the NetRoots/left/progressive wing of the party.

Can the left truly count on Obama to tack to the left given his presumptive (or at least momentary) frontrunner status or given his penchant for selling out his base in order to gear up for a general election candidacy?

Will the work Edwards has done in the recent months be enough to truly endear him to the left given his centrist vision in '04?

And, for the sake of the argument, who does Kerry appeal to once the race actually heats up (my answer would be no one)? Does he tack left given his image as a "Senator from MA," in all the title's liberal glory?

Richardson doesn't seem ready for the national stage, and even if he were I'd be willing to bet it would be as a VP candidate.

I guess the left could hold out for Gore...but does anyone have a reason to disbelieve his statements that he won't be joining the field? Who does that leave for the liberals?


by AZJustice on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 05:26:13 PM EST

Re: What About the Left? (3.00 / 2)

I consider myself a liberal and can speak for myself thank you very much. I have no problems supporting either Obama or Edwards. Obama has not "sold out his base", he has been quoted out of context saying things that are true about some segments of the liberal left wing (about their overblown anti-religious rhetoric).


The history of the left is a history of purists betraying the progressive movement so that they can feel good about their righteous selves.
by Populism2008 on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 05:59:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What About the Left? (3.00 / 2)

I don't know if I agree with you fully on Obama - he still seems to be unwilling to stake out any real positions lest he lose anyone's support, so instead he's sticking to relatively safe generalities.

That said, I think Edwards & Obama are the only true populists running for us, as your name would suggest, and as such I like them best.


by the wanderer on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 06:06:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What About the Left? (3.00 / 1)

I started glancing at Obama's voting record.  Here are a few things that stuck out:

He voted for the Mexico fence (H.R. 6061: Secure Fence Act of 2006).

He voted for H.R. 5684: United States-Oman Free Trade Agreement Implementation Act.

He voted for S. 2271: USA PATRIOT Act Additional Reauthorizing Amendments Act of 2006 and H.R. 4659: PATRIOT Act Extension bill.

He voted for S. 5: Class Action Fairness Act of 2005.

These don't give me a warm and fuzzy view of his politics.


Dennis Kucinich, Progressive Democrat for President in 2008
by hoose on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 06:47:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What About the Left? (none / 0)

My point exactly (& I do in fact believe that everyone has the right & capacity to speak for themselves, to answer the post above). I'm just wondering in terms of public postering who in fact is going to claim the mantle of the Left & run as an "out" progressive. That was my only original point.


by AZJustice on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 06:52:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What About the Left? (none / 0)

Well, I haven't wrapped my head around Mike Gravel's politics yet, but I think he's the closest we have to what you're looking for at the moment.  Unfortunately, he's 76 years old.


Dennis Kucinich, Progressive Democrat for President in 2008
by hoose on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 07:06:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What About the Left? (3.00 / 1)

I suffered through representation by Obama as an Illinois State Senator. Warm and fuzzy doesn't describe my feelings toward him. Frankly I would use the word "fake." At least on any vote on a controvercial issue he mainly hid in the mens room.

Any "warm and fuzzy" feelings are based one speech, which I doubt he wrote.


by srsjones on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 07:11:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What About the Left? (none / 0)

Completely fake.  What has Obama accomplished other than position himself for higher office?  In addition to his voting record, consider how he ducked Feingold's censure resolution, how he refused to campaign for Lamont, and how he keeps running the DLC-talking points that perpetuate sterotypes about the Democratic Party, in order to seem more moderate.


by justinh on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 11:52:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What About the Left? (none / 0)

Agreed - Obama is not a good candidate - he is too
far right from the center. And he is not experienced
at all.
I do not understand why people even including
him into polls. I see as of now only 2 viable
candidates: Gore & Dean.
by WeNeed3rdParty on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 07:55:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What About the Left? (3.00 / 1)

Calling Obama far right from center is a joke.  Just because you disagree with him on a few issues doesn't make him a conservative.  He's rated as one of the most progressive senators by just about any progressive interest group's measure.  He's certainly more progessive than Hillary Clinton.

The fact that you consider Dean more viable than Obama is even more of a joke.  Dean doesn't want the position and couldn't get it if he did want it.  I like Gore, but I highly highly doubt he'll run.

Obama is inexperienced, but that doesn't disqualify him.  If he ran with an experienced VP (like Bush did) he'll be able to deal with the accusation.  Not to mention if anyone but McCain wins on the Republican side they're not going to have much experience either.  Being the mayor of New York or a 1 term governor of Massachusetts is hardly any better than serving in the United States Senate.


by blueryan on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 09:08:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What About the Left? (none / 0)

Yes it does make Mr. Obama a conservative, even if
you are joking differently! Hillary is a gop-lite,
I did not include her in my list of 2 either.
And yes, the lack of experience does disqualified
Mr. Obama very much for 2008 specifically.

We need somebody who knows, what he is doing and
what he suppose to do. And Gore and Dean have it!

Dean is in fact the best candidate we can get:
he is a successful governor, he is a successful
chairman and the savior of Democratic Party, he is
a Doctor and even has Wall Street experience.

And yes, Dean created DFA out of nothing, which
by itself was a political force and almost a
new party, but Dean sacrified it in order to save
DEMs. So Obama may be a good senator for his
state, but he is not ready for Presidency (and
this is not a joke).


by WeNeed3rdParty on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 11:40:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What About the Left? (none / 0)

I think your name "WeNeed3rdParty" says it all.  You have no idea what the Democrats need.  I don't know who the nominee will be, but it won't be Dean I promise.


by blueryan on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 12:36:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I like Edwards. (3.00 / 3)

   He is popular with the independents who actually came out and gave us our recent victory.  I think Edwards would solidify these voters as de facto Democrats, and he would do it without very many ideological concessions (at least in my view).  I'm not sure if there is anyone among the candidates who is very similar to me ideologically, so I'm behind Edwards, just as I was in the 2004 primary after Dean's collapse.


Jim Oberweis
by cilerder86 on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 07:44:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Edwards appeals to middle-aged suburbanites (3.00 / 4)

As a precinct captain for Kerry before the Iowa caucuses, I witnessed the tidal wave for Edwards in my precinct and neighboring parts of the Des Moines suburbs. In October 2003 when I was working my precinct I identified only two Edwards supporters. By December their numbers were rising and in January it was just incredible (I believe another week or two and Edwards would have beaten Kerry in the caucuses).

I have never seen hard numbers to bear this out, but my observation was that suburbanites in their 30s and 40s broke for Edwards, while suburbanites older than 50 broke for Kerry. In my own precinct, with a lot of empty nesters, we had more Kerry supporters on caucus night. In nearby precincts with more young families, Edwards beat Kerry.

Since 30- and 40-somethings are a very important swing group, I think Edwards could bring a lot to the table as the nominee.

Obama is riding high because there have been some puff pieces on him and the right-wing hate machine has never turned on him. But I think his support would falter under intense attack.


Join the Iowa progressive community at Bleeding Heartland.
by desmoinesdem on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 11:14:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What About the Left? (3.00 / 3)

I couldn't agree with you more.  Anytime i've listened to Obama speak i've really appreciated his insight.  He has anything but sold out his base.


by blueryan on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 09:10:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2008 Metrics: National Polls and Name ID (3.00 / 0)

Not to imply that I love any of the other candidates, but is it too early to start googlebombing Hillary and Kerry?


Dennis Kucinich, Progressive Democrat for President in 2008
by hoose on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 06:17:44 PM EST

Can we agree not to google bomb Democrats? (2.60 / 5)

One of them will be our nominee.


by Preston on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 07:25:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes, we should stick to observer flares .... (none / 0)

... or, IOW, positive googlebombs. Let the people that support different candidates get together and agree on a news story that they want to get out there when someone searches for their candidate.


The words of the prophets are written on the subway halls
   and tenement halls
by BruceMcF on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 09:59:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2008 Metrics: National Polls and Name ID (3.00 / 1)

Just to be tedious: I think the name recognition numbers for September (as given) probably underestimate Obama's current name recognition as in the last couple of months he has been doing a book tour and announced he was considering running for president.


by kundalini on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 06:41:01 PM EST

Re: 2008 Metrics: National Polls and Name ID (3.00 / 3)

I wonder if John Edwards' work at the grassroots level with poverty and rights for low income workers may hide his true name ID and rank in the trial heat opinion polls. The particular population he has been working with is difficult to poll.


by lenstewart on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 07:06:46 PM EST

Re: 2008 Metrics: National Polls and Name ID (3.00 / 2)

If Gov. Vilsack runs then the Iowa caucus is going to be bizarre. My guess is that Vilsack is a stalking horse designed to push the field out of Iowa and deny momentum to a candidate coming out of NV and the NH primary. I think HRC thinks she will clean up on Super Tuesday.

If Edwards chooses to compete in Iowa and beats Vilsack on his home turf I think Edwards can catapult to the nomination.


"Nothing seems to embarrass the political class today." - Bill Moyers
by joejoejoe on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 07:09:41 PM EST

Edwards would soundly beat Vilsack here (3.00 / 5)

Almost every single person I know who supported Edwards in 2004 is still in his camp and fired up to support him again.

I know only a handful of people who support Vilsack for president. They are big-money donors but not the type of people who volunteer to knock on doors or be precinct captains.

And a lot of the big money donors are looking elsewhere.

I think it would be extremely tough for anyone to beat Edwards here in the caucuses.


Join the Iowa progressive community at Bleeding Heartland.
by desmoinesdem on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 11:17:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yeah, I don't know anyone here in Iowa... (none / 0)

...who is supporting Vilsack for 2008. At least, no one who will admit to it.


John Edwards 2008
by MeanBoneII on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 12:58:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2008 Metrics: National Polls and Name ID (3.00 / 2)

I think both Edwards and HRC could/would beat Vilsack in Iowa. My impression of Iowa '08 is roughly as such:

Kerry supporters go largely to HRC (insiders' choice).
Edwards keeps his own.
Dean supporters split to Edwards and Obama.
Gephardt supporters go to Vilsack (hometown boy) and Edwards (next-best labor candidate at this point).

Obviously these blocs aren't going to move en masse, but in general that's what makes sense to me.

In 2004, in addition to taking 2nd place as it was, Edwards was the 2nd choice of a lot of caucus-goers. That's why I think it's correct to think that with a few more weeks of campaigning, he probably would have won the state.


by the wanderer on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 10:54:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2008 Metrics: National Polls and Name ID (none / 0)

I am personally underwhelmed by the Dem field right now.

Hillary and her fund raising prowess going back to Sista Souljah - no thanks. Obama and his faux why can't we get along shtick - just another weather vane. Vilsack - OK, at least a governor but seriously lacking the charisma quotient. Edwards - at least he did his Iraq mea culpa and has a populist message streak but another Cheney type debate. Kerrey again - when he can't get out of foot in mouth disease and never able to take a crisp stand on anything.

Aren't there any Dem governors out there with good TV presence and a populistic streak with no Iraq baggage?


by ab initio on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 07:21:24 PM EST

Re: 2008 Metrics: National Polls and Name ID (3.00 / 4)

I think the man you are looking for is Edwards. He has is a great speaker and has a great face for TV. If you look at strict personality appeal, I think Edwards has the best.

And I couldn't agree more about kerry. I am so sick of him. Why in hell would we want him losing for us again. Dems want to(and really can) start winning for change.


Jeremy Bentham sucks!!
by Forward with Feingold on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 12:18:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Then that governor would be the VP pick ... (3.00 / 1)

... and wouldn't have to go through the process. Warner would be an idea if Edwards wanted to seriously contest NC & VA and the Ohio River Valley. A midwestern strategy might pick someone like Sebelius (though I must say I know very little about her).


The words of the prophets are written on the subway halls
   and tenement halls
by BruceMcF on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 10:01:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2008 Metrics: National Polls and Name ID (none / 0)

I have not made up my mind on anyone except I do not support Hillary.
I would not vote for her at any urging.  A vote for Hillary is a vote for coorporate politics, republican lite and someone who stands for nothing.
As an Illinois resident I am excited about the thought of Obama running.  he was a policy wonk here in the state senate and as yet, not taken for a very deep person that he is.  I am amazed by the passion I see with the younger people.  My son who is not impressed by anyone will not accept anyone but Obama as president.
However, I do wish Gore would run and I do like Edwards alot.
I will watch for the next year and see who runs and who impressed but, I garantee it will not be Hillary.
by vwcat on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 07:38:22 PM EST

Re: 2008 Metrics: National Polls and Name ID (none / 0)

There must be someone better out there than these maybe Governor Sabeilus, or some other Midwestern Democratic governor. I can't take another Senator or Congressman running. It's like running an explosive.


by orin76 on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 07:42:40 PM EST

Re: 2008 Metrics: National Polls and Name ID (none / 0)

Gore is looking better and better...


by IsThisOverYet on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 07:48:14 PM EST

Obama pickup some name recognition from (3.00 / 3)

Oprah.

However, I think John Edwards is way ahead in the field, with the work around the country he has been doing with minimum wage, unions, Wal-mart, College for students, and his international position like Darfur, he is making great headway.  He may not be getting the MSM coverage that Obama is also.

I believe he is strong and will do well in Iowa, if he runs.

Edwards would still be my choice for 2008.


Check out the New Progressive Blog EENRBLOG
by dk2 on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 08:20:22 PM EST

Re: 2008 Metrics: National Polls and Name ID (none / 0)

Why does Hillary want to be president?


by mrobinsong on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 08:35:24 PM EST

Re: 2008 Metrics: National Polls and Name ID (none / 0)

So she can embarrass her husband by having an afair with an intern. Paybacks a bitch.


Jeremy Bentham sucks!!
by Forward with Feingold on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 12:19:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You can now view all SurveyUSA matchups for free. (none / 0)

Head-to-head 2008 Electoral College results based on state-by-state polling.

You still have to pay for the individual state numbers, but you can see the overall results for free.

Obviously, name ID plays a big part in this, but you can compare how those with similar name ID stack up against each other, as of now.


John Edwards 2008
by MeanBoneII on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 08:45:04 PM EST

SurveyUSA matchups for free. (3.00 / 3)

This is a pretty interesting tool.  I just don't see Edwards taking North and South Carolina in addition to Kentucky, West Virginia and Missouri while losing states like Massachusetts, New Hampshire, and Washington.

They've got an interesting concept going here, but wow... Edwards is the only one coming close to defeating either Republican.


The sharpest criticism often goes hand in hand with the deepest idealism and love of country. ~RFK
by Vox Populi on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 09:08:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I agree, some states are no doubt very close. (none / 0)

When they first put up the matchups on their Web site, you could click on one state and see the percentages in that state for free. I saw that in Pennsylvania, McCain leads Edwards 44%-41%. Obviously, that's within the margin of error and could go either way.

As of now, Giuliani appears to be the strongest Republican candidate. But can he run far enough away from his pro-choice, pro-gay rights, pro-gun control, pro-guest workers history to win the nomination? Not if his rivals have anything to say about it (and somehow I suspect they will have quite a bit to say about it). And if he does run hard to the right -- which he'll have to -- his popularity with moderates is bound to suffer. And we haven't even gotten into his nasty affair/divorce yet, but I would guess we'll be hearing more about that, as well.


John Edwards 2008
by MeanBoneII on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 09:18:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama. (3.00 / 1)

   Obama makes some good speeches, but I wish he had some clear principles to back them up.  I'm not saying that Obama does not have principles, it's just that I wish he would share them with the rest of the class.  Obama is focusing very hard on being non-controversial.  If Obama thinks he can goose-step his way into becoming the Democratic nominee, MUCH less the president, he's in for a world of hurt.  Does anyone really think this man is ready to face the right-wing slime machine?  Is he ballsy and courageous enough to rebut attacks, and attack his opponent himself?  Anyone can see that right now he is not ready to defend himself.  He could barely even say anything bad about Alan Keyes in 2004.  We need someone who can stand up for himself and for fellow Democrats.  Obama is not yet this person


Jim Oberweis
by cilerder86 on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 09:30:07 PM EST

Re: Obama. (none / 0)

There was zero reason for Obama to go negative in 2004, he was killing Keyes in the polls. Going negative, while effective, is only done by politicians if they need to do it. If you're winning in a walk, there's no need to sling mud.

Also, I don't think Goose Step means what you think it does. Or, if it does, then you need to explain why you're calling Obama a Nazi.


by zenbowl on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 09:26:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2008 Metrics: National Polls and Name ID (3.00 / 2)

I think many on the left want a bomb-thrower like Dean to run for president.  Neither Edwards nor Obama are bomb throwers.  They both have a positive, forward-looking vision.  When they speak, they don't attack their opponents for what they have done, they point out what their opponents have NOT done.

I'm not sure how important "experience" is for being president.  Like Obama says, nobody is experienced enough for the office until they actually step in it, and even then it's a learning experience every day.

Edwards and Obama are two young (read post-Vietnam era) politicians and they have the vision and charm of Kennedy.  Americans of my generation need their Camelot, and an Edwards-Obama ticket could be just that.


The sharpest criticism often goes hand in hand with the deepest idealism and love of country. ~RFK
by Vox Populi on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 09:32:31 PM EST

IMO, the country and the progressive movement, (none / 0)

not to mention global warming make Gore/Dean a compelling choice for 2008.


by NuevoLiberal on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 09:40:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

How many Democrats know that Gore opposed the war? (3.00 / 1)

How many Democrats know and remember that Gore opposed the war, and that Hillary and Edwards supported it?

My guess is, not even half of them. That will play a key role, if Gore enters the race.

Among the top four, Hillary and Edwards voted for the war resolution (Edwards actually co-sponsored a war resolution).

Gore and Obama opposed the war. But, there are important distinctions between Gore and Obama on this front:


   1.  Gore came out in opposition to the war with his speech on 9/23/02. Obama did so on 10/26/02. It would be hard to imagine that Obama hadn't read Gore's speech by the time he gave his own speech. Hence, Gore's speech may have influenced Obama's opposition to the war and his speech. FYI, the IWR vote took place on 10/11/02.

  2. Gore was the leading Presidential nomination contender at that point. Hence in some sense the standard bearer of the party (from a Democratic rank and file point of view, not "establishment", which was still controlled by the Clinton/McAwful/etc gang). He also had much to lose for the same reason: it NEVER helps to stand against the tide of national opinion which was then strongly in favor of an invasion. In Obama's case, he was only a state senator, and was getting ready to run for the senate race, which was a statewide race (I don't recall seeing any IL specific polls, but they were probably more anti-war than the rest of the nation). So, Obama had less to lose (maybe even gain, depending on IL primary/GE polls).

  3. Gore's speech, which laid out solid arguments, apparently galvanized the Dems in congress (according to Eric Alterman), for example  then Majority leader Tom Daschle (Ted Kennedy and several member of the house also came out in opposition to the war shortly thereafter), into start asking tough questions. It had the potential to have influenced some votes to be cast in the negative (remember that other Dem leadership Bill+Hillary Clinton/Gephardt was gung-ho for the war, as were Lieberman and Edwards). 60% of the Dems voted against the IWR, which was a key fact this midterms because had over 50% voted for the IWR, we couldn't have been the "anti-war" party this cycle (we blew it by fielding pro-invasion Kerry/Edwards in 2004). Obama was hardly known by anyone to have influenced much.

In addition, to name ID, if one factors in "War Facts Awareness", Gore will rise to the top.

Keep in mind that Obama is probably pulling between 80-90% of the black Democratic vote in these polls (which alone accounts for 10% from his 20% or so. I'll try to see if one of these national polls gave some crosstabs for this). Hillary is faring strongly among women, but most of them probably do no know the key dichotomy: Gore opposed the war, was the first leading Democrat to do so, and Hillary and Bill Clinton supported the war.

I'll post some more on this, but the reader may wish to see these posts of mine:
- 2008 poll digest: Nov 15 edition
-comment in as earlier thread


by NuevoLiberal on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 09:38:50 PM EST

Hillary/Edwards. (3.00 / 2)

   Hey!  Don't put Edwards and Hillary in the same camp.  Hillary still supports this war, whereas Edwards apologized for ver supporting the war at least a year ago.  He admitted his mistake.  Hillary continues to stand by her egregious mistake stubbornly.  


Jim Oberweis
by cilerder86 on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 09:45:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Edwards was calling for troop withdrawal, also. (3.00 / 2)

Very early this year, long before it became fashionable in the Senate to do so, Edwards said that "The best way we can show the Iraqis that we're leaving is to start leaving," and called for a phased redeployment to start immediately. He really seems to get it now.


John Edwards 2008
by MeanBoneII on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 11:07:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Even I called for a phased trool withdrawal (none / 0)

subject to Iraqi troop training (inspired by Chris Carney, actually) around the same (or before) Edwards did. Seriously.

Just throwing a few ideas and talking points about when a majority of Americans supported it doesn't take much of anything.

Standing against the tide of public opinion ans opposing it in 2002 took guts and wherewithal.


by NuevoLiberal on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 02:03:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

the war? (3.00 / 1)

The former Vice President had the luxury of not having to cast a vote on the resolution.  Gore is a calculating politician.  Had he been in office, can we say with certainty he would have taken the same stand?

It's easy to oppose something when you don't have the power to change it.  But, when you do have the power, it suddenly gets a lot harder.  The political climate in 2002 was definitely pro-war, anti-Democrat.  While Al was courageous for opposing the war in that climate, he wasn't accountable to voters and wasn't even running for office.


The sharpest criticism often goes hand in hand with the deepest idealism and love of country. ~RFK
by Vox Populi on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 09:52:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Gore was the leading contender for the nomination (3.00 / 1)

Gore was the leading contender for the 2004 nomination in 2002, making him the first major Democrat to stand up and oppose that war, eventhough upwards of 60% of Americans supported an invasion at that point.

Let's look at what Gore said:


     "If Saddam Hussein does not present an imminent threat, then is it justifiable for the Administration to be seeking by every means to precipitate a confrontation, to find a cause for war, and to attack? "

     "I believe we should focus our efforts first and foremost against those who attacked us on September 11th and have thus far gotten away with it. "

     "the coalition assembled in 1991 paid all of the significant costs of the war, while this time, the American taxpayers will be asked to shoulder hundreds of billions of dollars in costs on our own."

Gore's speech against the war, 9/23/02


and contrast that with what Bill Clinton was saying:

 The Dave And Bill Show

  NEW YORK, Sept. 12, 2002

  But the former president quickly got serious when Letterman mentioned Saddam Hussein.

  Letterman asked, "Are we going into Iraq? Should we go into Iraq? I'd like to go in. I'd like to get the guy. I don't like the way the guy looks."

  "He is a threat. He's a murderer and a thug," said Mr. Clinton. "There's no doubt we can do this. We're stronger; he's weaker. You're looking at a couple weeks of bombing and then I'd be astonished if this campaign took more than a week. Astonished."

Even if the U.S. wins a war against Iraq and Saddam Hussein, Mr. Clinton said, a threat remains. He noted, "If he's got these stocks of chemical and biological weapons, and if he knows he's toast, don't you think he'll use what he can and give away what he can't to people who'll be using them on us for years to come so he can have the last laugh...."

Mr. Clinton clearly supports his successor.


Clinton wasn't saying go and attack now, but he clearly wasn't prompting Democrats to ask the tough questions, and it is obvious he was giving Bush a wink and nod.

Also, this ridiculous assessment that the war would be over in 2-3 weeks is astonishingly stupid, especially coming from a former commander-in-chief.

Had Bill Clinton opposed the war as Gore did, there is a very good chance that the Dems would have solidified strongly against the war and it may not have taken place (since Bush needed the "bipartisan" cover for his reelection, should the war have gone wrong, which it promptly did).

Here is what Eric Alterman had to say on 10/3/02 about Gore's speech and it's impact:


posted October 3, 2002 (October 21, 2002 issue)
Al Gore, democrat

Eric Alterman

But he sure galvanized Tom Daschle and other Democrats to face up to a frightening juggernaut for war they would have preferred to duck for the sake of re-election. Naderites take note. It was not "smart" in the Washington sense. It was not strategic. But damn it, it was brave.


Many Democratic leaders apparently influenced by Gore speech. Close to 60% in congress (house+senate) opposed it, allowing us to claim the "anti-war" mantle as as party, as key factor in the midterms this time (we blew it in 2004 by field invasion supporters Kerry and Edwards).

See also:

Hardball College Tour: Al Gore
Nov 26, 2002

MATTHEWS: Does it depress you that so many of your fellow Democrats you've served with, Mrs. Clinton, the senator from New York, John Kerry, Dick Gephardt, Democratic leader, recent Democratic leader of the House, Tom Daschle, all voted for the president, gave him a carte blanche, absolute blank check to go to war with Iraq and if you read the language, I know you've read the language. It's a give away. It's worse than the Gulf of Tonkin. Doesn't that dismay you?

GORE: I don't want to couch my answer as a criticism of them because I know it was a difficult choice and there are a lot of factors involved.

MATTHEWS: But you would have voted against it.

GORE: I would have voted against that resolution. I would have voted against it.

You see, as the leading contender for the nomination, he had everything to lose by opposing the war when an invasion was popular.

He would have won the nomination even if he had kept quiet about the war, and the unfavorables coming from standing against the tide here would stand to hurt him in the general (which they surely did, as the media went hammering Gore on his stand, as described by Alterman; Apparently as a result, by December'02, Gore was trailing Bush by 20 points, eventhough he was still leading the Dem field for the nomination) he in fact put his presidential prospects on the line. I think he did because the war was the wrong thing to do, and probably also because he sensed that the direction that the Bush regime was headed towards was not good for the country.


by NuevoLiberal on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 10:36:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Huckabee (3.00 / 2)

Look out for Huckabee.

1) The guy is smooth (ala Reagan) and a Wonk (ala Clinton).  

2) He is somewhat insulated on his record since its gonna be hard for Dems to criticize him for where Arkansas is (the infamous SNL Debate line of Clinton saying "We're #48 in prevention of Rickets.  Watch out Alabama, we're movin' up!"

3) His gift-registry is a non-issue.  Otherwise he's clean.

4) He's a former Baptist minister- he's got the base.

5) He would match up well to Obama (similar style) or Hillary (contrast).  He'd probably suffer in comparison to Gore.

All things being equal, I agree Guiliani will wilt once a light is shined on his life, and we could only hope he wouldn't and we'd get him in the general against squeaky clean monogamists Edwards, Obama, Gore or even Hillary.  

Huckabee is the only one who has few Bush Admin ties, has the rhetorical gifts and exec experience who seems able to make a credible run at it.  


Would you hire George W Bush to be YOUR latex salesman?
by jgkojak on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 10:11:18 PM EST

Re: Huckabee (none / 0)

I agree--he'd be the toughest to beat among the Republicans who are running.


Join the Iowa progressive community at Bleeding Heartland.
by desmoinesdem on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 11:19:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2008 Metrics: National Polls and Name ID (none / 0)

Ah, Russ.
We hardly knew ye.

Feingold 2012
Maybe the country will be ready then.


by Ex on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 01:08:28 AM EST

Re: 2008 Metrics: National Polls and Name ID (3.00 / 1)

Here's a thought about Iowa and Vilsack.

People have suggested he is a "stalking horse" for Clinton (the same was said of Clark two years ago).  They say he's in the race so that Iowa becomes less important.  Hillary is expected to fare poorly in Iowa, as most front-runners do.

If someone beats Vilsack in his home state, doesn't that become the story?  Don't they become a giant-killer and get an even bigger boost?  Maybe Vilsack, to the extent he IS a "stalking horse," is in it for Edwards?


The sharpest criticism often goes hand in hand with the deepest idealism and love of country. ~RFK
by Vox Populi on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 01:44:06 AM EST

Re: 2008 Metrics: National Polls and Name ID (none / 0)

I maintain that national polls don't matter at all in presidential nomination campaigns.  And they certainly don't matter a year out.  These campaigns are won on a state basis.  The average voter just doesn't know much about these people yet.  


by Marylander on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 09:47:36 AM EST

Too Early and You're Leaving Out Candidates (none / 0)

For instance, John Edwards has today been live blogging over at DailyKos, and has some 600 comments, but another post on DailyKos promoting Clark for 2008 has managed to rack up some 400 comments at the same time.

Yet Clark isn't listed here.

But fun as it is to play with statistics, we might as well be using astrology at this point.  In the last presidential cycle, I understand Lieberman started out highest.  Why?  Because people polled had heard of him.  That's all we're talking about.  Then it was Dean.  Then maybe Clark.  Then Kerry with Edwards as darkhorse possibility.  

A lot of spinning and numbers and not a lot of useful information about the actual candidates in the race.

In this just-past 2006 election, all of the television networks shut down in the final 4 days or so to spend their time exclusively on statistics, instead of actually providing additional news about the candidates and their positions (insofar as they'd ever done that!)

Surely there's more to politics than gossip?  Then prognostication?

At least, I'd like to think so.


by catherineD on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 05:17:03 PM EST

Re: Too Early and You're Leaving Out Candidates (none / 0)

Clark's got a lot of netroots supporters, a page from his 2004 Campaign Issues gets 400 comments :)

I don't know anything about him, maybe when he announces, the pollsters will pay more attention, but I haven't seen him out of single digits yet on any polls, which might but him in with "others".

Be patient.

Edwards liveblog at Dkos got about 1000 comments. Both he and Elizabeth were liveblogging.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/11/20 /144410/37


by catchawave on Sun Nov 26, 2006 at 06:32:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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