MyDD :: North Korea Nuclear Test

North Korea Nuclear Test

by Matt Stoller, Mon Oct 09, 2006 at 01:36:52 AM EST

Bumped -- Jonathan

Well it looks like North Korea has conducted a nuclear test. This is directly due to Bush's inept diplomacy. We desperately need a change in direction. Desperately.

Tags: North Korea (all tags)

Permalink :: 24 Comments :: Post a Comment

Re: North Korea Nuclear Test (none / 0)

Psssst.... two diaries on this issue..... ;-) Love ya Stoller.

by HoosierJosh on Mon Oct 09, 2006 at 12:46:05 AM EST

Re: North Korea Nuclear Test (none / 0)

I hope everyone sees this issue like this.

by KC on Mon Oct 09, 2006 at 12:53:28 AM EST

Re: North Korea Nuclear Test (3.00 / 1)

I love the right wing nutjobs pinning it on Clinton. Do they realize that they're really saying that 6 years of Bush and a full Republican government is too weak, impotent and incompetent to overcome Clinton's legacy?

by Lucas O'Connor on Mon Oct 09, 2006 at 01:10:18 AM EST

Re: North Korea Nuclear Test (framing the issue) (none / 0)

We've already seen that the Republican party will sell out our children for the sake of keeping power. What will happen when it comes to foreign policy? They tried it once with the Dubai Ports Deal... do we really want them to try again?

by alkatt on Mon Oct 09, 2006 at 01:16:16 AM EST

Re-militarizing Japan is gonna be great!!! (none / 0)

Right when the US economy hit the breaking point on military expenditures, now the arms industry gets a windfall to re-militarize the Land of the Rising Sun.

Man, this is going to be great!!

Then China will need a boost modernizing, so some US corp will have to find a sneaky way to sell them upgrades.

Then India.

Then Pakistan.

Then Russia.

By this point, the Iranians are going to be PISSED about being left behind. Taiwan will be screaming bloody murder over the further militarization of China. Soon every man, woman and child will be conscripted and armed.

And wow the money that is wiaitng to be made.

So, where's the neo-cons pre-emptive strike they were planning? Real badass chest thumping work there guys. Just forgot to execute, I'm sure.

by jcjcjc on Mon Oct 09, 2006 at 02:00:43 AM EST

BTW: who wants to take bets on this next part? (none / 0)

I think at some point in the near future it is going to come out that Japan has been harboring offensive weapons programs and that Abe is going to rush through pro-military reforms to Japan's constitution.

Could be a very embarrassing moment for internationa containment and diplomacy.

Not to mention, a lot of defensive weapons have two-way uses, as the Israelis discovered the hard way during the Yom Kippur War.

by jcjcjc on Mon Oct 09, 2006 at 02:04:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

How about a Japan nuke, now? (none / 0)

Sorry for an additional thought to my own posts.

But, is anyone really pondering how quickly the Japanese could turn around a nuke program of their own?

The rumor among those who whisper about these things is that Japan has a latent capability to convert its advanced civilian program over to bomb production within a month or two.

A quote from one Japanese politician in 2002 (http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/ japan/nuke.htm):

It would be so easy for us to produce nuclear warheads--we have plutonium at nuclear power plants in Japan, enough to make several thousand such warheads....[I]f we get serious, we will never be beaten in terms of military power.

Also, I think people have not even begun to consider what a conservative, assertive Japan could turn into in the Far East, especially with many of its neighbors still less than cheery about Japan's last bout of assertive behavior.

by jcjcjc on Mon Oct 09, 2006 at 02:20:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How about a Japan nuke, now? (3.00 / 2)

Frankly, after North Korea gave Japan the finger and launched missiles directly over the island, who could blame them? We can trust the Japanese far more than the Noko's or the Chinese.

If the North Koreans are bringing shotguns to the saloon, I can't in good conscience insist the Japanese bring a switchblade.

WE have thousands of nukes. Nobody here really has an inch of ground to stand on demanding our allies remain defenseless.

by OfficeOfLife on Mon Oct 09, 2006 at 02:43:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I can't disagree (none / 0)

But, knowing recent history, it still isn't going make the Chinese feel warm and fuzzy if Japan starts rearming. Especially since the Japanese could bring themselves to a US level of militarization in no time flat. On some level, the Chinese have to be pissed that North Korea has just handed the Japanese conservatives their excuse to do what they've been itching to do since the 60s.

The truth is that nuclear programs are far over-rated anyhow. It still requires a massive production apparatus to build the nukes, plus an even big apparatus to build ICBMs. Not to mention, it requires the necessary computer technology to make a serious effort to plop them on their targets.

And then after all that effort, nukes go sour pretty quickly.

All that for a weapon you can never use.

by jcjcjc on Mon Oct 09, 2006 at 04:59:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

ICBM's not needed in Japan v China (none / 0)

You make several good points but I'd add that Japan, China, Taiwan, and Korea don't need inter-continental ballistic missiles to hit each other. They can hit each other much more easily and cheaply by using shorter range missiles or bombers and would only need ICBM's to hit targets outside the region.

Compared to countries in the region, the U.S. is far less threatened by North Korean nuclear weapons. As you point out, China certainly would feel extremely threatened by a nuclear armed Japan just as Japan must feel extremely threatened by the prospect of a nuclear North Korea.

The fact that North Korea now has built and tested nuclear weapons makes an Asian nuclear arms race quite difficult to prevent at this point. Bluster by the U.S. certainly won't be enough to stop it.

by Curt Matlock on Mon Oct 09, 2006 at 09:03:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Restraint in Japan (none / 0)

This is really the point in history at which we find out whether the peaceful Japan experiment has worked or not. If it has worked, and the Japanese have grown to see it as part of their national character, then there is a good chance the game stops there.

That said, it is hard to believe that a nation with a proud military tradition such as Japan can stifle the militarists at a time that seems dire.

Also, it doesn't help that Kim Jong-Il is not the most stable personality on the world stage.

It's a hard call, and the truth is no one can blame them for either action they take.

by jcjcjc on Mon Oct 09, 2006 at 12:36:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Trust (3.00 / 1)

"We can trust the Japanese far more than the Noko's or the Chinese."

Of course, this is true at the moment, but I'll bet a lot more countries thought they could trust the USA under Clinton than they do right now. Leaderships change, and who would have thought that our own leadership would get so crazy, incompetent, and out-of-control ...

I'm not saying I have a solution; the whole thing is just scary.

John McCain, like George Bush, doesn't care about sick children

by Ms Bluezone on Mon Oct 09, 2006 at 05:54:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Underlying all this (none / 0)

Americans forget there is a large minority of Japanese who feel Japan was not treated fairly at the end of the war.

And, in Japan, the denial of the things the fascists did during the war -- especially in China and Korea -- is much more prevalent and unopposed than is now the case in Germany.

There are people in Japan who see this as their big chance to re-emerge as a global military power.

And, let's face it, Bush's prodding Koizumi to give troops for the Iraq War did not help the cause of keeping Japan relatively demilitarized.

by jcjcjc on Mon Oct 09, 2006 at 12:40:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

There is a big difference (none / 0)

between building up into a peaceful military power (such as the French or Germans), and becoming an imperialist global power.

Japan is one of the United States' best allies on the globe, and is a major economic driver in the world economy. I would strongly encourage them to develop a robust military in response to the growing threats in Southeast Asia, to act as a strong deterent force.

With US forces stretched to the breaking point in Iraq and Afghanistan, Japan cannot depend on us as their main source of defense. There is also no reason why a country as wealthy and technologically advanced as Japan should be on "US military welfare".

by OfficeOfLife on Mon Oct 09, 2006 at 07:10:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

In politics, symbols count (none / 0)

And the symbol of miitary Japan is as scary as they come.

by jcjcjc on Tue Oct 10, 2006 at 10:22:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: North Korea Nuclear Test (none / 0)

I was scanning a right-wing blog on this, just to see what reaction there is. 350 some-odd messages, none of them blaming this administration for the state of affairs now. It's like this big blind spot - they can throw around insults and references to Carter and Clinton (they just can't let go of the past, can they?), but nobody in the GOP can be to blame.

Pathetic for them, sad for us all.

by MtnFrost on Mon Oct 09, 2006 at 02:15:33 AM EST

If Clinton's penis confronted me (3.00 / 2)

I think I would have to build a nuclear program. Jeez. Don't you understand how the world works?

Six years after Clinton (6 AC on the neo-con calendar) North Korea can't take the chance that Clinton's penis will re-emerge as a world power.

by jcjcjc on Mon Oct 09, 2006 at 02:23:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: North Korea Nuclear Test (none / 0)

Why don't we just hurry up and create the Super Duper Black Hole Generator so every nation on earth could easily destroy every other nation at any point. That way everyone has complete destructiveness and therefore pretty much voiding all weapons.

As if we do not have 938493849389 bombs already and we could pave the entire earth in glass already 5 times over.

Why do we continue to spend money on such useless crap.

by Gigadafud on Mon Oct 09, 2006 at 07:07:06 AM EST

Re: North Korea Nuclear Test (none / 0)

I think N. Korea was going to end up with nukes no matter who the president in the US was. When we cut deals with Kim, he cheated on them. This is a problem for us, but it is a bigger problem for China. They screwed up bad, and I think they're just starting to realize what a big problem they now have. The Chinese badly miscalculated this.

by alhill on Mon Oct 09, 2006 at 10:24:21 AM EST

Re: North Korea Nuclear Test (none / 0)

I've wondered why China doesn't engineer a pro-China coup and install a government they can control. By sending food into the country, they would have a populance that loves the new government. My understanding is that the North Korean government lives on Chinese aid and Chinese advisors roam the country at will. Is this impression out of date? If push came to shove, the Red Army could invade to "save communism from Western attack".

by antiHyde on Mon Oct 09, 2006 at 12:18:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

China couldn't pull it off (none / 0)

1. Because the Chinese political will is against such an action. The Chinese do not perceive themselves as interlocutors in their neighbors' affairs (some of this is a self-satisfying myth).

2. They tried something to that extent in Vietnam in 1979 and it went poorly and ended with serious defeats in a ground campaign.

3. North Korea has been so closed even the Chinese can't crack it. The Chinese just don't have the influence with North Korea that they claim to have. The truth is, America has an easier time getting Iran to respond.

4. The Chinese lack the intelligence apparatus. Chinese intelligence has been geared toward industrial espionage for so long that the Chinese are incapable of conducting serious covert actions. Similar to America's inablity to approach terrorism after the Cold War.

China is not even remotely as powerful as we Americans have built it up to be.

North Korea's actions expose this fact.

by jcjcjc on Mon Oct 09, 2006 at 12:46:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: China couldn't pull it off (none / 0)

"The truth is, America has an easier time getting Iran to respond." Whoa!That's saying something. And I suppose "face" would prevent them from collaborating with the US to topple this madman. Of course, given Bush's record, only an idiot would trust the US not to screw up, anyway.

by antiHyde on Mon Oct 09, 2006 at 02:47:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Upon further review (3.00 / 1)

The Chinese are moving troops to the NoKor border.

The question is, are these troops there to handle humanitarian issues following a war with the South, or is China finally realizing how dumb it was to prop the North up.

I will say this: what makes the Chinese tough to deal with is that they don't act much upon doctrine.

While China has a doctrine of no US troops on its border, you never know.

by jcjcjc on Tue Oct 10, 2006 at 08:46:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: North Korea Nuclear Test (none / 0)

Most of the world sees the north korean nuclear test as a result of bush's failures in foreign policy, including his completely ignoring north korea while antagonizing it. Only the American MSM fails to make the connection. Survey of world opinion shows the majority believe the blame is squarely with bush

http://www.miserywatch.com/2006/10/north _korea_fal.html

by GusB on Tue Oct 10, 2006 at 04:01:20 AM EST

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