Why The Blogosphere and the Netroots Do Not Like Hillary Clinton

bumped again--jonathan

Mystery Pollster has been writing up quite a few good articles lately, including Muskie in'70, And Pew Makes Four, and So When Is An Attitude Really An Attitude?. These are all cool posts, but the one I would like to comment upon comes from last week, Hillary, The Blogs, and The Base.

I have placed my discussion in the extended entry. Please check it out. It is long and elliptical, but I really think it is worth a read.

First, I'd like to jump into a discussion that Mystery Pollster only glanced at:
This leads to me want to rephrase Perlmutter's question: Do blogs represent the Democratic "base?"

The answer may depend in part on how what we mean by "the base." Are we talking about voters who think of themselves as Democrats? Or are we talking about only those who vote in primaries, who consistently support Democratic candidates or feel "strongly" about their party affiliation? Or are we talking about the yet smaller populations of those who donate to campaigns or who are active as supporters in the grass- or net-roots?

I do not know which of these three terms is the proper use of the term "base" in a political context. I do know, however, that the netroots and the blogosphere are best characterized by the third possibility, "the yet smaller populations of those who donate to campaigns or who are active as supporters in the grass- or net-roots." To be as blunt as I can, anyone who does not know this by now really just does not understand political blogging at all (not that I'm accusing Mystery Pollster and David Perlmutter of not knowing this, as I believe they do know this). This is really basic stuff. Bloggers and blog readers are not "the people." When understood as a group, they are not representative of America either in terms of demography or in terms of political engagement.

Political blog readers are the highly engaged avant-garde of American politics. As last year's Blogads survey showed, their level of engagement in politics is incredibly high. 67% said donated to a political campaign in 2004, compared to 15% nationwide. 72% of blog readers said they signed a petition in 2004, 66% said they contacted an elected official, 44% said they wrote a letter to the editor, and 43% said that they attended a campaign event. Further, among self-identified Democratic Blog readers, these percentages were actually much higher. Other studies of netroots activists, such as the study of Dean activists conducted by Pew, have shown similar, or even greater, levels of political engagement among the netroots.

I write this to try and put to bed, once and for all, two of the major stereotypes about bloggers. First, while many blog utopianists would have you believe otherwise, bloggers are not the people, and the blogosphere is not a spontaneous rise of the political rank and file to challenge to establishment. Blog readers are actually wealthy, highly educated, and highly politically active. That is not the profile of the rank and file of any political party (although it is more the profile of the Republican rank and file than the Democratic rank and file). The already linked demographics of blog readers demonstrate how different they are from the rest of the nation. Also, as David Perlmutter puts it:

When we look at actual surveys of bloggers we find that they may be high in number but they tend to come from the higher-education and upper-income portions of the population, which is as true in Kyrgyzstan or Nigeria as it is in the United States. In the U.S., bloggers are overwhelmingly white, and a majority are male.
At the same time, this also disproves the other main stereotype about the blogosphere. Although many detractors, from Bill O'Reilly to Gary Trudaeu, would have you think otherwise, blog readers are actually wealthy, highly educated, and highly politically active. To again quote from Perlmutter:
But...even if blogs are not vox populi it does not follow that, as blog critics love to taunt, bloggers are the fringe-dwellers, tinfoil-hatters, anti-fluorides and loony Star Trek fans of American political life. To the contrary, while bloggers may not be the people, there is growing evidence that they have an extraordinary and extra-proportional effect on the people--and politics, campaigns and elections, public affairs, policy making, press agendas and coverage, and public opinion. Vocal minorities, we should recall, have in political history changed the world and affected the fate of millions.
The audience of the blogosphere is full of political activists, and the blogosphere has emerged as the primary means for progressive to communicate with a large segment of their activist class. That segment is perhaps best understood as the "creative class" segment of the progressive activist class. Got it?

Now I can explain what this all has to do with Hillary Clinton. As obvious as I thought my last point was, it is probably even more obvious by now that Hillary Clinton is, um, not exactly the most popular Democrat within the blogosphere and the netroots. I can offer loads of anecdotal information to support this, but perhaps the most striking evidence is that despite her large lead in national telephone surveys, she polls around fifth or sixth in our presidential preference polls. The real question we face is to figure out why she is not very popular among this large segment of the progressive activist class.

People will offer lots of reasons for this. In the past, I have done so myself. However, when one understands who actually makes up the blogosphere, a rarely, if ever, discussed reason comes to the fore. Within the progressive activist universe, there is also a very real class stratification. While the blogosphere and the netroots may not be "the people" within America or the Democratic party as a whole, within the world of progressive activists, they are definitely "the people," "the masses," "the rank and file," and any other populist term you want to throw out there. I believe the main mark against Hillary Clinton within the blogs and the netroots is the degree to which she is perceived as the uber-representative of the upper, aristocratic classes of the progressive activist world.

Really consider this idea. As an example, think about the way it realtes to fundraising. The main division in American political fundraising is not between large donors and small donors, but between people who donate the political campaigns and people who do not. When it comes to politics, big donors and small donors are similar in almost every way except that one group is wealthier than the other. Both small donors and wealthy donors are activists, and both highly politically engaged. However, those who donate to political campaigns are very different than those who do not, in that their levels of political engagement differ widely. "The people" do not donate to political campaigns, only activists do. However, within the world of donors, "the people" are the small donors. Small donors are the working and middle classes in the world of progressive activists, and hold much of the same class-based animosity against wealthy donors that the working and middle classes of America hold against "big business" plutocrats. Within the world of progressive activists, Hillary Clinton is seen as hopelessly on the side of the big donors, and against the small donors.

And this applies to more areas than just fundraising. Within the world of progressive activists, from the viewpoint of the working and middle class progressive activists, Hillary Clinton is seen as hopelessly aligned with the establishment activists, with the insider activists, with the wealthy activists, with the well-connected activists, and with every possible progressive activist "elite" you can possibly imagine. Is it thus in any way surprising that the activist base, which is largely on the outside looking in, generally does not harbor much positive feeling toward her? The progressive activist base considers the progressive activist elite to be the main culprit in progressives losing power around the country. We keep losing, and we blame them. Thus, why should it be a surprise to anyone that we dislike the person who is viewed as their primary representative? We literally hold her, and what she represents within the world of progressive activism, to be responsible for the massive progressive backslide that has taken place over the past twelve years.

This also present significant insight into what the progressive activist base does like. First and foremost, we like progressive who challenge the activist elite and who do not seem to be of the activist elite. Just look at Howard Dean's 2003 speech at the California Democratic convention, which was a major turning point online in the 2003-2004 primaries, and remains a seminal moment in the history of the netroots. The entire beginning of the speech takes direct aim at the Democratic activist elite, and appeals for support directly from the progressive activist base.

Now, look at progressive netroots preference for 2008 once again. The entire top tier--Senator Feingold, General Clark, Governor Warner and Senator Edwards--is filled with candidates who are perceived as coming from outside the progressive activist elite, or who regularly challenge that elite. These are candidates who are perceived by the activist base as for the activist base, rather than for the activist elite. Senator Feingold, who is viewed as perhaps the ultimate progressive maverick, is now comfortably leading these polls.

I believe that Hillary Clinton is disliked by a large segment of the progressive activist base primarily because she is perceived by the activist base as standing with the progressive activist elite. In 2008, I believe the Democratic candidate who will do best among the netroots will be the candidate who does the best job of overtly distancing themselves from the progressive activist elite while still representing him or herself as standing with the progressive activist base. In retrospect, this is pretty much exactly how the Dean campaign was able to portray itself, and portray Howard Dean, to the activist base in 2003. I intentionally list the Dean campaign and Howard Dean as two separate entities, because for any Presidential campaign to succeed among the netroots next cycle, it needs to portray not only its candidate, but itself as representative of the progressive activist base.

Figuring out exactly how a campaign does this will not be easy. In order for any campaign to pull it off, they will need to draw upon staffers and consultants from within the netroots itself. It is simply not possible to use institutional staffers and well-heeled consultants to pull this off, and not just because I don't believe such staffers and consultants would understand the nature of the beast with which they are dealing. The main problem is that the use of institutional staffers and well-heeled consultants are one of the primary complaints the progressive activist base has against the progressive elite, and no matter how brilliant those people may or may not be, they will usually be considered part of the problem on an a priori level.

I really think I am on to something here, and I would like to hear your thoughts on this matter. Is there really a class divide within the world of progressive activists, and could it be the primary source of not only blogosphere dislike of Hillary Clinton, but of our friction with nearly the entire Democratic establishment? Let me know.


Display:


brilliant post (none / 0)


by Matt Stoller on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 03:17:36 PM EST

A lot to chew on (none / 0)

My initial reaction though-

I think that it's important not to discount the very real possibility that Hillary is choosing to stamp her name on things that just aren't very popular with progressives.  Flag burning amendment, government regulation of video games, etc. etc. really aren't the sorts of things that progressives want as central planks of their candidate's platform.

This in many ways is potentially unfair to Clinton.  She has a pretty strong voting record on progressive issues and, while she's been hesitant to leap into the anti-war camp, her changing outlook has relatively accurately mirrored the American people. Many people would, perhaps, see this as her just following polls. It could also be that she's being convinced at about the same pace as the middle of the electorate which isn't such a bad thing per se.

I would suggest that, while elements of your analysis are probably correct, it's potentially more simple.  Activists are people that are passionate about politics and as such, they want to line up behind someone who's going to get them excited and get fired up with them.  It's why we get excited about people like Dean or Obama or Feingold who are actively engaged in trying to get the "base" excited and mobilized.  It isn't so much that we want or demand their respect as a political force, but we it's much easier to get excited about a candidate when they're excited about us too.  While we're going to keep fighting the good fight, it's a lot more fun, and thus we tend to work even harder, for someone who's clearly glad to have us along and have us happy.

I'd also guess that a lot of activists are pretty much starving for someone to step up and lead with a progressive agenda.  This again is probably not entirely fair to Clinton, because as I mentioned in a journal a while back, leading with the superprogressive issues is probably not the best idea if you're trying to get elected.  Clinton's popularity outside of the blogs suggests that she's doing a pretty good job of reaching more casual Democrats with ideas that they like.  If we look at her voting record, it indicates that she's pretty solid on the progressive issues even though she isn't talking about them all the time.  

As we get further to left and more engaged in the system though, and after spending so many years on the wrong end of things nationally, we really want a candidate that's willing and able to grab a microphone and validate our actions and ideas.  For better or for worse, Clinton isn't willing or able to do that.  The blogs, and progressives in general, want some love and approval from somewhere other than their own blogs and it's only natural to be more inclined towards candidates that provide that.

When I suggested that Dems not campaign on more controversial issues, the reaction was pretty harsh.  After years of trying to convince people that we're right on all of these issues (and we are, ssshhh) and getting beaten down by elections and the media and pundits and everywhere, the last thing we want to do, on a gutteral level, is act in any way like we're ashamed of or wavering on any of these issues. We want vindication, and we want it to be loud and swift and filling and assured when we get excited about a candidate.  Having to go on faith that we can slip it in the back door once we get our candidates elected who don't like to talk about it isn't nearly as satisfying.

by Lucas O'Connor on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 03:31:03 PM EST

Re: A lot to chew on (none / 0)

And wow, that turned out to be really long and way more supportive of Hillary than I intended. Oops.
by Lucas O'Connor on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 03:31:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A lot to chew on (none / 0)

"we really want a candidate that's willing and able to grab a microphone and validate our actions and ideas."

Yes -- I think this is the key to a lot of what's going on in blog vs. telephone polls (and I just posted something similar before reading your comment.)

by sdedeo on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 03:37:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A lot to chew on (none / 0)

Listen, I don't think we've been doing that.  I don't think our elected officials have been very good at articulating our values -- and I think we've been losing elections because they've been so good at "positioning themselves to the center" that they haven't been able to make a good case for our values.  Dems haven't been running on progressive values, they've been running as "Republican lite."  And that's why they're losing.

What we need is a leader who will LEAD, who can articulate our values clearly, who will bring the rest of the country along with us.  The Republicans have pulled the country pretty far right, that now what used to be "centrist" policies are now called "liberal."  Huh?  I want someone who can lead us, who can show the world the difference between Democratic values and Republican values.  In other words, that we have them, and for all their gas about them -- its just so much hypocrisy.  I don't want someone who has spent her life "triangulating."  

On the other hand, if I lived in NY, I would probably vote for Hillary for Senate.  But I will not vote for her for President.  I think she's smart, I view with distrust reports that she's not personable or is "cold" -- a real trope for an ambitious woman -- but I do wish she would articulate real values and not sham ones. AND I wish that she would stand up for Democrats when she goes on national TV.

by Maven on Sat Jan 14, 2006 at 10:25:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A lot to chew on (3.00 / 1)

"We will not get there by being Republican Lite. We will not get there by being Republican Quiet. We will not get there by being Republicans on Monday and Democrats on Tuesday." - Russ Feingold

:)

by KainIIIC on Sat Jan 14, 2006 at 12:45:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A lot to chew on (none / 0)

KainIIIC - Probably the shortest and truest statement in the entire blog.
by MOBlue on Mon Jan 16, 2006 at 07:47:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A lot to chew on (none / 0)

"Having to go on faith that we can slip it in the back door once we get our candidates elected who don't like to talk about it isn't nearly as satisfying."
*
Forgive me, but it isn't very realistic, either.  Wasn't this how the Clintons won, before?  After we all voted for Bill despite his triangulating weathervane rhetoric, what part of the progressive agenda did his administration accomplish beyond the Family Medical Leave Act?  Even that was compromised beyond recognition.  Yes, it IS something that a lot of people want and need, but (like W's tax cuts) it's a rather paltry record to hang a legacy on.  And I don't believe Bill's "wars of terror" were any more justified or effective than Chimpy's.
BTW, I'm not dissing Lucas - it's a thoughtful and useful analysis.  I just don't trust these "centrists" at all.  FWIW
by Bob in AZ on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 05:58:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

substance over style (3.00 / 1)

A few things:

  1. The survey you discuss has some methodological problems (e.g., it focuses only on those blogs with enough readership to attract blogads, which I believe excludes a large number of blogs -- the "long tail." My guess is that there is a lot of stuff going on in that long tail.) On the other hand, I'll guess it's largely accurate.

  2. The average income for blog readers hovers around $70,000. That is a very large number. I don't know what the variance is, but my guess is that it's not large enough to include the "working class." (I'll take a stab in the dark and interpret that income as per individual, not per family; not sure how the question was phrased. In general, I wouldn't be surprised if blogs skewed young so that $70k is either for a single person household or a DINKy or at least DIKy one.)

So I don't see how you can interpret the Hiliary Clinton distaste as a mild case of "class warfare". To do so you would want to figure out what the average income (or income distribution) of a Clinton donor. My guess is that it probably hits the same income distribution.

  1. You use the phrase "well-connected" and "insider" to describe Clinton donors. My guess is that this is mostly a stereotype. Clinton has a great deal of support among Democrats -- as you've noted yourself, she polls high in telephone surveys that presumably don't work from the secret DLC phonebook.

  2. My analysis: the reason Clinton polls so poorly among the grassroots is that she's perceived as insincere. She'll rally the best one day, and then go out and pal with Newt the next. Bloggers prefer greater predictability and control in their candidate: they have strong opinions and (good!) ideas, and they support candidates who go out and follow through on them.

That's why they (and I) supported Dean: they knew they could trust him to get on television and speak the truth about the Bush administration. Similar things can be said, e.g., for Clark and so forth (but not Kucinich, who many rightly perceived as the professional loser.)

To put it another way: bloggers see a much greater overlap between politics and the media. They support candidates who use their media platform to promote -- unambiguously -- progressive ideas.

by sdedeo on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 03:33:24 PM EST

Re: substance over style (3.00 / 0)

Let's remember too that much of the lower and lower-middle classes are still relatively new to the internet and, while access has exploded to encompass almost everyone, access doesn't necessarily translate into idle online time to read blogs.
by Lucas O'Connor on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 03:37:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: substance over style (3.00 / 0)

True. But on the other hand the average American watches 3 hours 46 minutes of television a day. I'll take a stab in the dark and say that's roughly constant over a wide range of incomes (if anything declining with increasing income as other entertainment options become available.)

While internet access and a computer is not free, it is becoming increasingly cheap -- certaintly cheaper than a cellphone plan. The barriers to greater online participation at this point seem to me to be both income and culture related, with culture (i.e., how you chose to spend your free time and how relevant you perceive the internet to be to your life) increasing in importance.

by sdedeo on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 03:43:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: substance over style (none / 0)

I'm not saying that people don't have idle time. Just that "access" can mean different things for different people. Access can mean that there's one computer with a dialup connection in a house with parents and three kids. If everyone needs to use the computer to pay bills, write reports for school, exchange emails, etc. it doesn't leave a lot of time to flip through the blogs.

Also, people that have X amount of idle time don't suddenly give up tv to read amateur political pundits after work.

Of course it's getting better and will continue to get better. In fact, the more I think about it, the more I think that Chris' original post might be a bit ahead of its time. I'm not sure that I fully buy into the class warfare idea right now but I think that it's something that may be brewing if not already building.  As internet gets even faster, more omnipresent, cheaper, etc. you will have more and more lower and middle class people spending more time online and having more access to blogs and other grassroots organizing efforts.

Maybe we're seeing the beginning of it, maybe it's still to come, maybe I'm crazy.  But considering that the greatest population growth is coming from the Hispanic population, who are trending Dem, are largely NOT Dem fatcats, and whose internet access and usage is in the midst of what appears to be a major boom, I think the shift being described is still coming.

by Lucas O'Connor on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 03:58:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: substance over style (3.00 / 0)

That's an excellent point; I think you are right that the class warfare between bloggers and insiders will grow with time.

The question, though, is how blogging will change as it becomes democratized and the blog-reader's profile grows increasingly representative of the population at large. My guess is that blogs will retain many of the characteristics they posess today; to put it another way, bloggers I think are more "in touch" than their incomes suggest.

Just thinking of families I know, the main predictor of internet access is whether or not they have a kid who grew of age in the internet era. Income is less important. I was surprised to see that the dailykos readership spans a wide range of ages and centers much higher (30s+) than you would expect; that doesn't square with my personal experience.

by sdedeo on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 04:10:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: substance over style (none / 0)

That actually has become less true for me lately. Obviously it's entirely subjective cause it's just the people I happen to run into, but when I moved from an upper-middle-class, mostly white area (where you're right, an internet-aged kid made a big difference) to a more lower-middle-to-lower class community, while internet access is often helped along by having someone come of age around it (as much because schools require it now as anything) they still aren't huge on using the net for day-to-day functioning, entertainment, or for long stretches of time. The net (perhaps cause it's still relatively new), is an incidental tool to a large extent, not the lifeblood that it's become for many who have had it longer and have integrated it into everyday life. Again, this would suggest that as the internet expands and evolves, it will become more widely used and thus more class issues will arise.
by Lucas O'Connor on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 05:30:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: substance over style (none / 0)

1. Yes, it has methodological problems, but it also had 30,000 responses. That is a prety large smaple size. And the entire notion that it is restricted to larger blogs does not seem to be a problem for me. Larger blogs actually strike me as necessarily more representative of the netroots. After all, they are large because a lot of netroots people read them.

2. Note that I repeatedly emphasized that progresive activists are only working and middle class within the world of progressive activists. They make a lot less than the millionaire donors who can drop $2K on several campaigns. The entire notion of the blogopshere being working class is only in the context of the progressive activist and donor community.

3. I use those phrases to describe her activist support. She does in fact have a lot of nationwide support among the Demcoratic rank and file, but within the activist community her support comes from the activist elite. The class strucutre I am talking about here is entirely within the world of the activist community--not nationwide.

by Chris Bowers on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 04:08:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: substance over style (none / 0)

Two random thoughts:

  1. Cell phones.  Telephone polls exclude cell phones, and therefore probably underpoll a significant progressive demographic, the youth.

  2. I've heard a fair amount of anger at HRC from big donors as well as small.  This article doesn't quite jibe with the elitist point:

Although it is still more than two years before the main parties in the United States decide on their candidates for the 2008 presidential election, it is widely assumed that the Democratic Party candidate will be the junior senator from New York, Hillary Clinton.

You might expect the political conversation among Democrats to be along the lines of "is Hillary electable" (given the preponderance of red states on the American political map) but as I discovered during a recent visit to the US, many in her natural base have already washed their hands of her.

At a dinner party in New York last week with a group that included writers, lawyers, a former senior staff member for the Clinton administration and a columnist for The New York Times, the hatred of Hillary Clinton was unconcealed. It was articulated with the passion of people scorned. Clinton has not just disappointed, she has betrayed them. I might have been more surprised at the way these Upper West Side liberals were slagging off at someone many of them would once have seen as a political ally, if not a personal friend, had it not been for a pretty savage piece in that week's New York magazine.

"The Trouble with Hillary" by columnist Kurt Andersen pretty much covered the waterfront of why Clinton is disdained by so many New York liberals. She is "all about cool calculation and calibration in service of the main chance", Anderson wrote, but unlike her husband, who was equally calculating, she lacks his charm and appearance of sincerity. One problem Clinton has is that no one likes her. "She has cold, staring eyes," one of my dinner companions remarked. She comes across as "wooden, priggish, cold, too much super-ego and too little id," says Andersen.

A far bigger complaint is not about her personality, but her politics. In recent months, Clinton has cosied up to the leading members of the "vast right-wing conspiracy" she once excoriated for trying to bring down her husband. (That was before she knew the truth about Monica Lewinsky.) Former House speaker Newt Gingrich torpedoed the "Hillarycare" health insurance plan in 1994 but that hasn't stopped her making recent common cause with him - on the need to reform health care. She infuriated many on her side when she gave a joint news conference with what Andersen describes as "her two most appalling Christian-right colleagues", Rick Santorum and Sam Brownback, to call for $90 million in federal funds to investigate their contention that the internet and other electronic media are "satanic".


by Matt Stoller on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 04:13:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: substance over style (none / 0)

Re: cellphones. I remember right before the 2004 election we were told that (the mostly young, liberal) people excluded from non-cellphone surveys would swing the vote to Kerry. It didn't happen. The cellphone-only crowd (which I just joined) is still a small fraction.
by sdedeo on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 04:19:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: substance over style (3.00 / 0)

The cell phone only crowd is also well stocked with apathetic, non-voting young people.
by Lucas O'Connor on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 04:25:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: substance over style (3.00 / 1)

The youth vote did swing decisively to Kerry.
by Matt Stoller on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 04:34:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Missed one (3.00 / 0)

In line with Chris' "elitist" point is the obvious. If her name was Hillary Gozdowski she'd be in some office somwhere passing paper. I've made this point before...in a nutshell

I will never, ever support anyone who gets where they are based on birth, or who they were banging. Period. End of subject.

Last I knew, we fought a revolution in part to eliminate having so say "Yes. M'lord/lady" to someone just by an accident of birth or marriage. Yet now we are all too willing to turn our brains off and let family dynasties take over, at a time when social mobility overall is dying.

by ElitistJohn on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 04:28:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Missed one (none / 0)

Ridiculous. Whether or not you agree with her positions on anything at all, she's more qualified to be President than Bill was. Look at her resume. She's extremely bright and has an uncanny ability to forge consensus. Like her, husband, she's a skilled politician with a sharp mind. Again, you might hate her guts, but you can't argue with her qualifications.
"There is nothing wrong with America that cannot be cured by what is right with America"- Bill Clinton
by bluenc on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 05:20:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Missed one (3.00 / 0)

And there are tons of people who are even more qualified in this country who aren't in the public eye because they weren't banging a President. Her qualifications are irrelivant. So we only pick Crown Princes and Princesses if they are the most competent of the Dynasty?

Great, you're advocating a meritocracy among de-facto Aristocrats.

by ElitistJohn on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 05:54:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Missed one (3.00 / 0)

You mistake this post as anti-Hillary, or else I missed something.

I think Chris's analysis here is just as relevant to Clinton supporters, maybe moreso, than it is to detractors. If you support her, wouldn't it be helpful to understand why a certain type of activist doesn't?

I would urge you, as someone who sees Hillary's qualities, to say whether you think Chris is onto something or not. Do you think there is a split among different types of activists that's helps to explain why we don't universally love her?

This administration sucks.
by thief on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 06:00:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Missed one (3.00 / 0)

Correct. I would take the same stance regarding bayh, son of Bayh. Ford, son of Ford. Bush, grandson of Prescott, son of Bush (yeah, reaaal qualified). Kennedy of what can only be described as a literal US Aristo dynasty (and please tell me all about Patrick's pure genius and ability).

Etc..., etc...

by ElitistJohn on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 06:28:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Missed one (none / 0)

So you believe that being born into a position of high status automatically disqualifies a person from having the abilities and merits to be worthy of that position? That's a bit silly.
by Lucas O'Connor on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 06:59:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Missed one (none / 0)

No, it doesn't mean they may not have merits, it means that they are disqualified. Otherwise you end up with a self-perpetuating system.

High status of birth = prep school education = standing out in applying to top colleges (plus tons of international travel) = (great contacts + prestige + better recruitment opportunities) = better experience = high status

Rinse, lather, repeat generationally.

Even a mongoloid like GWB can be on top in this rigged game.

No one ran around asking the various European nobility about their personal qualifications before removing their titles and privileges precisely for this reason. Of course they would be more qualified on paper (and maybe even in reality)...they were the only people in the game.

It's precisely the attitude you are giving that is leading to the slow death of social mobility in the U.S. (that's not my opinion...the Conservative British journal "The Economist" had a magazine devoted to the subject).

by ElitistJohn on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 07:13:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Missed one (none / 0)

good luck finding a prominent politician who's succeeded solely on their merits...
"There is nothing wrong with America that cannot be cured by what is right with America"- Bill Clinton
by bluenc on Sat Jan 14, 2006 at 02:12:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bill Clinton is your man (none / 0)

Elitist John,

If you're looking for a politician who came from dirt poor without any connections, then, Bill Clinton is your man.

Not Howard Dean, Not John Kerry, Not Al Gore.

Let me remind you that we live in the United States of America. Why in the world would you penalize a high achieving person who happens to be born out of a Highly Successful Family?

We are all here to be the best we can be. To go for your full potential. Any responsible & loving parent would encourage their children to reach for the stars & even provide them with all the tools to prepare their child. That's any parent regardless if they were Democrat or Republican, Liberal or Conservative.

Either you're a person with NO KIDS & would NEVER understand or you're one of those people who have this attitude of " I HATE SUCCESSFUL PEOPLE", " I HATE ALL RICH PEOPLE".

by labanman on Sat Jan 14, 2006 at 12:21:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"Successful" (none / 0)

Entirely my point. To paraphrase Ann Richards, there's nothing more pathetic than watching someone born on third base declaring magnificent "success" of the Triple they hit. Your assumption of fabulous success when you start most of the way there is funny...and telling.

Yes, you provide all the "tools"...congrats. At the same time this makes sure that a brighter and more capable kid unlucky enough to be born to lesser parents loses out.

Let me put it to you this way. If your kids are so great...why do they need your status to get them ahead? Isn't their innate ability and merit going to make them "high achievers" or "successful"? Aren't you insulting them by not trusting their brilliance?

Or is it that you know there are better, smarter, or more capable people out there and you need to make sure those bastards don't have a level playing field?

by ElitistJohn on Sat Jan 14, 2006 at 03:18:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Understood (none / 0)

I haven't followed this thead carefully but I would like to comment here.

If the level of the field is such that everyone gets medical care, housing, food, a chance at a decent job etc. then yes I should feel guilty giving my kids extra advantages. If on the otherhand it's a field reduced to a social darwinist heaven then I am not going to feel guilty giving my kids a leg up.

But in both cases I need to support and work for a cooperative rather than a competitive winner take all reality. In both cases I need to work for that level field where all are protected and where all abilities are used for moving society forward in harmony with the planet, etc. etc.

Jeff Wegerson - PrairieStateBlue
by wegerje on Sat Jan 14, 2006 at 03:58:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Understood (none / 0)

That she is so unpopular with segments of the left and right blogosphere tells you more about the blogosphere than about her standing with Democrats.

Yeap, it implies that we within the blogosphere are partisan. You know what I think of that? Good. Being a partisan Democrat is a step up from being a typical Democrat because the latter will always be castigated and pidgeonholed by the right (e.g. "you don't know where they stand on the issues") and as a result, the typical Dem will compromise their values in order to appease perception amongst the elitists within the media and rightwing punditry circles in a vain attempt to "grab the center" for votes. That's the DLC strategy and Hilary Clinton milks it for everything it's worth. Thus, she's not very popular with us in the blogosphere because of her penchant for sanctimony and demagoguery -- she'll use any "old school" crutch such as "Deadbeat Dads" and "Mortal Kombat Creates Child-Killers" just to get elected even if facts surrounding those crutches are wrong. She and Joe Lieberman share the same cerebrum (as well as membership cards with L. Brent Bozell's PTC organization).

On the other hand, you won't ever hear that "you don't know where they stand on the issues" line when the media and the rightwing attack dogs discuss partisan because partisans won't waste time telling you where they stand on the issues (commonly laced with a liberal supply of choice expletives) and certainly won't apologize for them either. Unlike Dick Durbin who'd gladly pluck out his spinal collumn and hand it over to the Republicans as if it were contraband, partisan Democrats will pluck out their spinal collumns only to wave it proudly in the air as if it were a flag and say, "Ooooh, look what I have here - it's a spine! And I don't need a permission slip to brandish it!" In reponse, the media and the rightwing attack dogs approach partisans by sliming and castigating them (e.g. "This guy is off the chart left!") because they know they can't defeat them in a heated issues debate (as evidenced by Wolf Blitzer's recent exasperated sigh after getting schooled by Howard Dean).

Let me remind you that we live in the United States of America. Why in the world would you penalize a high achieving person who happens to be born out of a Highly Successful Family?

How did that success come? I'm not going to fall for the usual excuses trucked out on AM Radio by the likes of Rush Limbaugh and Neil Boorts such as "They worked hard", "pulled themselves up by their bootstraps", and the like. I won't fall for them because they're bullshit. They don't tell the whole story. Their success has more to do with either good fortune, luck, and/or text-book exploitation of the masses by prostating themselves at the feet of Mammon - the Great Balaam of Capitalism - than it does with actual work. Although Capitalism has been the engine of our nation for some time now, it is also the very engine that can not survive unless it divides, conquers, and exploits the people. It must divide the people into camps (Compact Cars Vs. SUVs; $20 Vs. $120 tennis shoes; "haves" Vs. "have-nots") in order to maintain it's own relevence and distract people from noticing the values it espouses: cronyism, corruption, greed, selfishness, rougery, tyranny.

Either you're a person with NO KIDS & would NEVER understand or you're one of those people who have this attitude of " I HATE SUCCESSFUL PEOPLE", " I HATE ALL RICH PEOPLE".

And why not loath them? How is it that in a country of 300 Million people, the upper 1-7% get more stroke, more privlege, more access, etc. than the remainder? How is it that such a minority can systematically run roughshod or the majority time and time again? Where would the rich be at if they didn't have an underclass to exploit?!? Simple -- they'd be in the same place the Religious Right would be if it weren't for their ACLU meal ticket: scratching their asses while standing in a welfare/unemployment line! Forget the fully loaded Lexuses, SUVs, Rolls Royces, and multi-million vacation homes. They would be living in a van down by the river. Considering the ever widening gap between the "haves" and "have-nots" in this country, I've got very bad news for the Rich: history shows us via the Roman empiracism and European colonialism that it's a very, very, dangerous thing to be surrounded by a bunch of poor people with nothing left to lose. A gun is a poor man's lawyer. A lawyer is a rich man's gun.

If the level of the field is such that everyone gets medical care, housing, food, a chance at a decent job etc. then yes I should feel guilty giving my kids extra advantages. If on the otherhand it's a field reduced to a social darwinist heaven then I am not going to feel guilty giving my kids a leg up. But in both cases I need to support and work for a cooperative rather than a competitive winner take all reality.

I would agree and, interestingly enough, comedian George Carlin was a guest on Don Imus recently and he was asked about how he felt regarding how starkly divided the nation is. Carlin said that the corruption of the GOP, the incompetence of Bush regarding Katrina, and the borderline complicit/complacent nature of the Democrats have created a virulent melting pot at the individual/citizen level where there's simply way too much competition and not enough cooperation. The scales need to tip over in the latter area soon to balance everything out or we're in for an upheaval that'll make the 1960s look tame.

by Sizemore on Sun Jan 15, 2006 at 07:55:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Understood (none / 0)

Perfect. If Che here is representative of the netroots, I hope to God the blogosphere doesn't get the candidate it wants.
"There is nothing wrong with America that cannot be cured by what is right with America"- Bill Clinton
by bluenc on Sun Jan 15, 2006 at 02:06:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Not at all (none / 0)

You'll note that I never said Mark Warner (rich) or Jon Corzine (rich) or John Edwards (rich) doesn't deserve to be there. Because they earned their way on their own efforts. Big difference.

But electing people who got there by connections and a family name is insipid. The only reason Evan Bayh is where he is is because Daddy was where he was.

I would note that we regularly, as a country laugh at supposed "democracies" like Pakistan  (or the Perons of Argentina) where the Presidency shuffles between a couple of dynastic clans who utilize connections and wealth to be placed on the ballot.

Yet here we are in the US, with literally two decades where the Presidency has bounced back and forth between to immediate families, and you're demanding we all enjoy making it three.

So who are we to call Pakistan a joke anymore?

by ElitistJohn on Sun Jan 15, 2006 at 04:09:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not at all (none / 0)

beg your pardon? two immediate families? well, the bush family is one, and the other is....? even if clinton wins, what's your point? that no rich person ever deserves political power? simply because of how or where they were born, they shouldn't be in leadership? a woman who has the good fortune of marrying a future president is therefore disqualified from doing anything besides smiling and looking pretty?
"There is nothing wrong with America that cannot be cured by what is right with America"- Bill Clinton
by bluenc on Sun Jan 15, 2006 at 05:17:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

And again (none / 0)

I love turning the entire world on its head. Now it's an evil thing to want to expand opportunity to everyone because it discriminates aginst the privileged? That's to laugh.

I suppose you are also one of those who feel affirmative action was vile because it discriminated against white people? Or that eliminating inherited nobility was a vile intrusion on private property and tradition?

I also love how you munge "rich" with birth and/or connections. I already noted the difference, which you pretended to not see and kept arguing the strawman.

We have a society which is moving more and more into a de-facto aristocracy, with de jure structures which pretend everyone has opportunity. Just like when technically a minority was equal under the law, except that numerous social and economic structures made that untrue in reality. We instituted affirmative action understanding that nothing short some reverse discrimination would break those de facto structures. Same here.

by ElitistJohn on Sun Jan 15, 2006 at 05:56:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And again (1.00 / 1)

Why do people think Hillary Clinton is so damn smart just because (unlike the current Warlord) she is able to put one word in front of another? I can't think of anything she's ever done that I could agree with. Why is she even on a par with, say, Donald Trump, or Martha Stewart? At least they had to do something to get what they have. She is nothing more than a rather dirty political animal with expensive makeup.
by blues on Mon Jan 16, 2006 at 07:44:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And again (none / 0)

So because you don't agree with her she's not smart? My original point was that Clinton is extremely qualified and exceptionally bright. You can hate her guts as much as you like, but she has a hell of a resume. Also, you didn't agree with providing health insurance for all Americans? Or making women's rights a topic of conversation in the global community? Or making college education a real possibility for everyone in America?
"There is nothing wrong with America that cannot be cured by what is right with America"- Bill Clinton
by bluenc on Mon Jan 16, 2006 at 09:17:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And again (none / 0)

My problem is just that you have completely exhausted her qualifications as a liberal. The disqualifications are endless, much like those of Bush. She still supports the war. She is oddly obsessed with our "morality." I do not bother to make a list of these things, but when they become as routine as they are with her and Bill (millions and millions of kids starved in Iraq), it seems pointless. We really do need a "Daily Sin Sheet" for these people. It would be horrifying. One good thing about Bill is that he never let any 9-11s happen. But I don't think of him (or Hillary) as liberal.
by blues on Tue Jan 17, 2006 at 01:04:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And again (none / 0)

Okay, I did say:

She is nothing more than a rather dirty political animal with expensive makeup.

But I also said:

I would vote for her if she was running against Bush

Believe me, I could say far worse things about a politician. There was just no excuse for Democratsin06 08 to give me a one for that. I give people a lot of leeway when they say things I don't like. That's why I can honestly call myself a liberal.

by blues on Tue Jan 17, 2006 at 01:54:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Missed one (3.00 / 1)

I have been a straight democrat ticket voter all my life. I used to hope and could not wait for Hillary to run for president. Then came her coldly calculated move to the right. It disgusted me. I wanted the Hillary who wasn't going to act like "she stayed home and baked cookies" just because it would make her more popular. Or the one who stood by her man even though most people thought she was crazy to do so. She had her values and she did not apologise for them. Since getting elected to the senate she has turned into someone I could not cast a vote for. She has become a huge disappointment.
by Kankakee Voice on Sat Jan 14, 2006 at 02:23:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: substance over style (none / 0)

That article is what I was trying to get at in my post I think. Is there anyone that thinks that Hillary is in this because she's passionate about making the world a better place? That she's constantly feeling the knawing of her ideological conscience and it drives her to uplift people?

Or does she seem like the sort that's just trying to win and has no emotional investment in what she's doing?

by Lucas O'Connor on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 05:05:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: substance over style (none / 0)

Bingo.

She epitomizes the worst of the beltway and is utterly out of touch with 'the base'.  Only Holy Joe and Biden are worse.  

by weinerdog43 on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 10:44:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Name me Politician who isn't (3.00 / 1)

I'm not a Hillary supporter.

But let's not get carried away now. HRC is a Professional Politician playing in the highest level of the political arena. Regardless of how you feel about her, she is now in the "superstar" rank among a very select group of politicians who are serious contenders for the Presidency.

To get to that level in the Political Profession, you have to be Highly Ambitious, Determined, have a strong base of loyal supporters, a deep desire to succeed & a Big Ego.

With that said, how in world can you declare that only  Hillary is out of touch, ambitious & has a big ego? Hello, each & every serious candidate for the Presidency have All these traits. If not, they would NOT reach these levels among thousands of Highly ambitious politicians across the country.

It would be ignorant or naive to think that HRC is the ONLY one who is "self centered, ambitious, ego driven, out of touch, etc." At this level in politics, ALL THESE Men & Women Politicians in BOTH parties have those SIMILAR traits. If they did not, they would not reach that 1% of Top politicians among thousands of fellow ambitious politicians.

It's all about perception. But at the end of the day, Feingold, Clinton, Dean, Warner, Bayh, Edwards are ALL PROFESSIONAL , Ambitious, Driven, politicians with Big Egos. They have to be ! Or they would not be thisclose to being their Party's Presidential nominee. They may really want to be President to change the world, BUT they are also human & would love the Attention, the Power, the Recognition. If not, they wouldn't be running for the presidency !

This is no different than sports. The Michael Jordans, Magic Johnson's, Larry Bird, Steve Young's, Jerry Rice's, Roger Clemen's ARE ALL "ELITE" among their Profession. All these Professionals have BIG EGOS, Strong Determination, Tremendous Ambition to be #1.

It would be very naive( just because you don't like HRC )to conclude that HRC is ambitious, ego driven, out of touch, etc. while your FAVORITE Democratic candidate for President is NOT.

You may think he or she is  different, but ALL THESE HIGH LEVEL politicians have VERY SIMILAR traits or they would not be in the Top 1% in their field.

by labanman on Sat Jan 14, 2006 at 12:44:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Name me Politician who isn't (none / 0)

With that said, how in world can you declare that only  Hillary is out of touch, ambitious & has a big ego?

Hllary is out of touch, ambitious and has a big ego. See how easy that was? You went to a lot of trouble to say that all politicians are human  beings. So what? Are you trying to claim that since all politicians are human there are no differences between them? As usual, I suspect you have no point, but are simply blathering.

by Gary Boatwright on Sun Jan 15, 2006 at 07:27:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: substance over style (3.00 / 0)

  1. You can't overcome systematic errors by increasing the sample size. And you miss the point of the long tail: the blogs there have fewer readers, but there are more of them. A very large fraction of blog readers may indeed be mainly participating in blogs that are way down the radar.

  2. You say this quite a bit, but you should provide statistics to show what the donor income distribution for Clinton versus (e.g.) Dean or versus (e.g.) the DailyKos dozen is. I am skeptical of the claim that Clinton receives a signiificantly larger amount of support from millionaires (e.g.) than the blogger's progressive. (As a side note, I still find the use of the term "working class" to describe $70k strange -- are you using it metaphorically?)

  3. You need to explain more what you mean by activist elite. Do you mean by income? (In which case, see #2.) Do you mean by connections to local Democratic organizations? (In which case, see Kerry victory in Iowa.) Etc., etc.

I don't think you're 100% wrong on this, but I think there are a lot of assumptions in your analysis.
by sdedeo on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 04:17:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: substance over style (none / 0)

You're being needlessly nitpicky on this.
by Matt Stoller on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 04:35:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: substance over style (none / 0)

Sorry, yes, I am. (Sorry, Chris.) It's this dissertation its turning me into a monster.
by sdedeo on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 05:37:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: substance over style (none / 0)

1. That is just not true. I do not think you recognize just how much more traffic the larger blogs have over the smaller ones. Dailykos has over 600,000 readers per day. The top ten progressive blogs come in at over 1.5 million. Smaller blogs like you describe usually have around 10 readers per day or less. There just are not hundreds of thousands of regularly updated progressive political blogs with 10 readers filled with audiences that do not visit the major sites. That just isn't the case, and I spend a lot of time analyzing web traffic. Polling the major sites would indeed provide an accurate sample of who readers progresive political blogs.

2. Here you go. And here is the stuff for Clinton. This information isn't hard to find. It is, shall we say, an "open secret" that the Clintons raised the vast majority of their money from large donors, while Dean did the opposite. Also, on the first link, note that before he won New Hampshire and became the presumptive nominee, Kery's numbers from smaller donros were much less.

3. Dude, I don't know how mcuh clearer I can spell this out for you. As I tried to make clear in the post, those activists with more power (and money is a form of power) would be the activist elite, and those activists with less pwoer would be the activist base. Aka, the Demcoratic leadership would be the activist elite, and people on blogs would be the activist base. Is that good enough for you.

I think you are having a difficult time getting through my terminology, and understanding the scope of my discussion. I am not talking about the country as a whole. I am talking about the world of progressive activists.

by Chris Bowers on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 04:39:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: substance over style (none / 0)

Umm just one point.  I don't think low traffic blogs get like 10 hits a day. Almost as soon as I started my blog I got 50 hits a day. And when I check site meter (which I often do) at other blogs, I still see at least 25 hits a day.  I think a more reasonable estimate of low-traffic blog traffic is 50-150 hits a day.  So I can believe that the long tail of political blogs equals Kos' traffic, although I have no idea how many of the low-traffic blog readers also go to the high traffic blogs.

Also, I know you mentioned readers per day, but if you check Kos' site meter you see that 600,000 is the number of hits, not the number of readers.  A lot of the hits, especially at a place like Kos, are people like me who go back a huge number of times a day.        

Visit my blog Say No to Pombo
by Matt Lockshin on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 05:19:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: substance over style (none / 0)

I know, but Kos actually has over 600,000 readers.

And you would be surprised by how few blogs have more traffic than you if you are getting 150 per day. Really, it is less than five hundred progressive political blogs. The tail isn't as long as you might think.

by Chris Bowers on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 05:23:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: substance over style (none / 0)

I meant os ay, Kos ha$s around 760,000 page views per day. Also, sitemeter doesn't count visits from the same IP twice unless they are more than two hours apart. Thus, while the number of actual unique viists is probably less than the number of "visits" site meter record, it isn't that much less.
by Chris Bowers on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 05:27:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: substance over style (none / 0)

Chris,

I'm pretty sure site meter counts visits from the same IP twice if more than 30 minutes has elapsed between page views.  That's how I read this:

Site Meter tracks page views and visits. You may also have heard the term "hits". When someone comes to your site, they generate a "hit" for every piece of content that is sent to their computer. Viewing a single web site page would generate one hit for the page and one hit for every individual graphics file that was on the page. A single page could easily generate a dozen or more hits. When you are browsing a site, every time you follow a link, it is treated as a single "page view". Site Meter defines a "visit" as a series of page views by one person with no more than 30 minutes in between page views.

Thus, I probably account for between 5-10 visits a day to Kos. (I'm not sure what your point was about page views btw unless it somehow relates to the fact that I used "hits" synonymously with "visits."  Looking at the Site Meter quote above, I suppose "hits" could also mean page views).  

Also, I'd really appreciate a link to back up your assertion that there are less than five hundred progressive political blogs that get more than 150 hits a day. I know I've seen some of your reports on the blogosphere, but my impression was that you focused on Ad Sense blogs, which probably under counts the lower traffic blogs.  

Visit my blog Say No to Pombo
by Matt Lockshin on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 06:36:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: substance over style (none / 0)

I'm a small blogger. That 50 to 150 hits per day is right on mark. And that's what I hear from and see from other small bloggers like me. I hardly ever go to D-Kos, because it is so big and so MALE.
by Kankakee Voice on Sat Jan 14, 2006 at 01:58:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: substance over style (none / 0)

Data is good. You're right that Clinton is getting her money from a much wealtheir group than progressives. Your use of terminology like "working class" was definitely confusing for me, but I get your drift.

I do disagree that Clinton dislike is generated by insider-outsider envy. I think if Clinton behaved differently, bloggers would flock to her. On the other hand, if Clinton behaved differently, she would no longer be the $2000+ darling (viz. Gore.)

by sdedeo on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 05:28:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: substance over style (none / 0)

Chris,

be craeful of your assumptions. Internet readership, like internet linkages, follow a "Zipf" distribution. That basically is a double-logarithmic curve. Here's a plot courtesy Jakob Nielsen on both linear axes and double-log axes:

as Wikipedia notes, the distribution follows a 1/f law in its simplest form:

The simplest case of Zipf's law is a "1/f function". Given a set of Zipfian distributed frequencies, sorted from most common to least common, the second most common frequency will occur 1/2 as often as the first. The third most common frequency will occur 1/3 as often as the first. The nth most common frequency will occur 1/n as often as the first. However, this cannot hold precisely true, because items must occur an integer number of times: there cannot be 2.5 occurrences of a word. Nevertheless, over fairly wide ranges, and to a fairly good approximation, many natural phenomena obey Zipf's Law.

Many phenomena follow this distribution, including the english language (the word "the" being the highest frequency). The fact that website traffic follows Zipf's law has been extensively well-documented.

so it is true that the highest websites have a ton of traffic, but the distribution falls so suddenly that I dont think you can assume that most traffic revolves around them. At the very least, the traffic in teh tail is equal to teh traffic in the  head; and most of the traffic is in the second tier sites.

If you calculated traffic for the solid middle of sites (digby, drum, TAP, mydd, etc) youd rolly find that they easily exceed teh traffic of the top sites.

NB
by azizhp on Sat Jan 14, 2006 at 12:25:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Senator Clinton raises mostly small $ (3.00 / 1)

According to a Hotline posting excerpted on DailyKos 95% of her contributions in 2005Q3, her largest fundraising quarter, were less than $100. The suggestion that Senator Clinton is not popular with small dollar donors, Democratic activists, working and middle class progressive activists or any other large segment of Democrats is simply false. She is very popular, and for good reason. That she is so unpopular with segments of the left and right blogosphere tells you more about the blogosphere than about her standing with Democrats.

I do not like Senator Clinton's position on Iraq, and I cringe when she takes up issues like flag burning and video games. But those disagreements do not blind me to her record of progressive activism, nor do they blind me to her broad popularity in the Democratic party.

by tib on Sat Jan 14, 2006 at 04:27:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I don't think money is the determining factor (3.00 / 0)

Chris -- When I started reading your post I thought you were going to say that Hillary was unpopular among bloggers because we are the ones paying attention to the details of what she does as opposed to just her image.  I disagree with you that the difference in views about Hillary among bloggers is because of the class differences between the bloggers -- I have never met so many rich people as when I got involved with Dean's campaign (and I raised tens of thousands of dollars for him and met many members of the "Dean's List") and most of them could not be described as Hillary backers.  Actually, most middle class Dems I know like Hillary more than the rich people I know -- maybe because the rich people have actually met her.  Bartcop, hardly an upper class Dem, seems to me to be Hillary's biggest booster in the blogosphere, and that's because he is desperate to win.
by Flatiron Dante on Sat Jan 14, 2006 at 12:35:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I don't think money is the determining factor (none / 0)

As I've been reading through this, and I didn't know quite where to stick this comment in, my thought is this: I, like many people assume that the internet is slanted towards the young and those with higher incomes. Yet my experience, especially since starting my own blog, has been surprise at how many others blogging and commenting are babyboomers like myself. We are hardly kids.

Also my income is quite modest, I pay big bucks (in percentage to my income) to have high speed internet access and a decent laptop. I could care less about clothes and furniture and do-dads for the house. My husband and I spend what little extra money we have on internet access and related equipment. Would I rather have a new couch or a new laptop? Laptop wins every time. I don't think we are that different from most people our age.

by Kankakee Voice on Sat Jan 14, 2006 at 02:13:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Your argument (none / 0)

Your argument has alot of strengths and is an interesting look at the potential power of the blogosphere but unfortunately evades MP's crucial question. You make great comments about the engaged qualities that many bloggers have, and a nice suggestion on the so-called "creative class" but again, avoid his essential quesion. As he notes, over 90% of self-described "liberals" have favorable views of Hillary Clinton, and less than 5% have unfavorable views. If readers and participants of blogs like DailyKos and MyDD, the two largest groups of liberal bloggers, are so avowedly anti-Hillary, then how relevant can we consider their stances to be? Put another way, how can these bloggers claim that to be representative of the Democratic left when they so absolutely disagree with the vast majority of Democratic liberals?

The vast majority of your lengthy post seemed to be devoted to answering the question, "do bloggers matter?" This is indeed the peripheral question suggested by the post, but not the crucial one. Yes, bloggers donate money, yes bloggers donate time, yes bloggers donate ideas. But are they representative of any larger group? The answer I would submit is yes, to a point. Despite their occasionally near mythical-status in some circles, readers of the most popular political blogs remain merely one subset of the larger populace - representative certainly of that subset, suggestive of larger portions of the left, and occasionally informative on the nation as a whole. The MP (I feel like I'm talking about the British parliament) makes the case that their hatred of Hillary, which though it might spill over into the broader liberal community, is currently still limited into an especially small subset of the left.

Are there liberals who hate Hillary? Certainly. Will they ultimately thwart her potential attempt to win the nomination or the general election? Perhaps. Currently, however, despite the passion which some have on sites like this one, it remains a limited emotion of a small group of a part of the populace which has unfortunately been defeated in the last few election. For now, however, Hillary-hatred remains in the province of the right.

by FDRDem on Sat Jan 14, 2006 at 11:43:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Where is Hillary? (3.00 / 1)

I essentially agree with the profiling of the netroots outlined here. I would argue that the dislike of Hillary in this group is based not so much on who she's connected with, but rather on her public passivity that borders on the irresponsible.

Today, Harry Reid made a dramatic statement comparing the republican culture of corruption to the Vegas mafia he fought earlier in his life.  Hillary Clinton is a universally recognized public figure, far more than any other current democrat. But does she do her part for the mighty left Wurlitzer? No.  Does she pull her weight in the national debate? No.  Does she exercise her responsibility to lead, as a statesman? No. She picks the little fights, the incremental issues.

Many republicans are calling for democrats to assume the submissive position, to accept that republicans have won, to limit ourselves to offering milquetoast incremental improvements to obvious universal issues like gas mileage and nuclear plants.   Hillary, I am sad to say, has internalized this dynamic, and acts as the docile good democratic wife to the aggressive republican establishment.  "We're not hear to rock the boat, dear. Just be patient and let me tinker with some marginal, safe issues.  We're in no position to cause a raucus".  

Meanwhile, we have a President who is flaunting his illegal wiretapping orders and is unilaterally assuming authority without a peep of oposition.  Bush's behavior makes Nixon's look like child play.  And where's Hillary?

(I know you will also ask, where's ___ ? ) Good question!

by camilow on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 04:05:50 PM EST

Re: Where is Hillary? (none / 0)

Oddly enough, the rightist blogs are falling all over themselves this week, attacking Clinton for criticizing Bush. Malkin "wrote" a column (largely plagiarized) from a news report that was already biased against her.

They're all furious that, on Good Morning America, in reference to the lack of body armor for the troops, she said that Bush has "three more years in office. Some of us wish this wasn't the case." It was the first time in a while that I'd really heard her open fire like that. I hope it's a sign of a growing trend.

by Scott Shields on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 04:44:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Where is Hillary? (3.00 / 1)

The RWNM does not need an excuse to attack any leading Democrat in general or Hillary in particular. It's a combination of their natural instinct to attack and a question of keeping their knives sharp.

I noticed Hillary's attack on the continuing shortage of body armor and was surprised, even taking the Alito hearings into consideration, that she didn't have more company in her criticism. This is precisely the kind of issue that Democrats should jump on with both feet and drive into the public consciousness.

by Gary Boatwright on Sat Jan 14, 2006 at 06:36:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

We're Not The Loony Star Trek Fans! (3.00 / 1)

We're the sane Star Trek fans!  The ones who spend more time with political conventions than Star Trek conventions, but still think it's a cool political slogan:
    Live long (Social Security, Medicare, universal pre-natal care, etc.) and prosper (GDP growth under Dem presidents since 1930 is an order of magnitude higher than under Reps).

p.s. We're also majorly into Buffy, The Vampire Slayer, and just about anything else Joss Whedon does, except sneeze.

by Paul Rosenberg on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 04:19:55 PM EST

Re: We're Not The Loony Star Trek Fans! (none / 0)

Let's not leave out the new Battlestar Galatica!
(And lets credit Sci-Fi for it's role of considering the the real life ramifications of politcal ideas, opinions and actions.)
by David in Burbank on Sat Jan 14, 2006 at 09:16:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Here's another way of looking at it (3.00 / 1)

This leads to me want to rephrase Perlmutter's question: Do blogs represent the Democratic "base?"

I would suggest that a better question is "Do blogs represent the interests of the Democratic base?"

Your paradigm of a political class divide is on target Chris, but the discussion has gone off on tangents of income and voting behavior.

Income - Of course bloggers and blog readers are going to have an average income above the norm. Working Americans who are working two jobs or 60 hours a week don't have time for the luxury of blogging.

Voting behavior - This is a variation of the standard "electability" theme that DLCers constantly turn to when they claim progressives are "out of the mainstream." The real question that progressives are challenging is the "chicken or egg" question of whether Democratic voters are choosing conservative Dems or the Democratic party structure is choosing conservative Dems in the primaries.

I would like to suggest that your analysis is precisely correct when you reframe it as whether bloggers represent the interests of the Democratic base. Now we can examine the polls that demonstrate conclusively that the interests and desires of the Democratic base, no matter how it is defined, are more accurately reflected by bloggers and progressives than by "mainstream" corporatist Democratic politicians like Hillary.

This also allows us to take into account the messaging that even most Democratic primary voters are receiving as it is filtered through the M$M and the Democratic Party machine. On both factual and ideological grounds progressives and bloggers represent the interests of the Democratic base, but their message is muted and overwhelmed by the RWNM, the M$M and the typical voices of the Democratic Party that most voters get a chance to hear.

It takes a great deal of effort to sift through the information smog and search out the unfiltered progressive message that addresses the needs of both the Democratic base and average American voters.

by Gary Boatwright on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 04:52:13 PM EST

Re: Here's another way of looking at it (none / 0)

I very much agree with you that, "the Democratic base message...is muted and overwhelmed by the RWNM", and I can't help feeling that the RWNM has influenced the way that we react to Hillary. She has been demonized by them and it can't help but influence some activist reactions to Clinton when she dissapoints us. If it didn't I feel like we would react to her in a way more like how we react to Bayh, more with a simple dismissal.

There is so much negative hype around Hillary, including Chris Matthews' and the toesucker's conspiracy theories about her inevitability, that I think it shades our collective response to her.

We might dislike her for good rational reasons, but the depth of our collective negative reaction to her seems to sample from something else.

This administration sucks.
by thief on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 06:14:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here's another way of looking at it (3.00 / 1)

There is so much negative hype around Hillary, including Chris Matthews' and the toesucker's conspiracy theories about her inevitability

Tweety and the RWNM is already geared up to "Gore" Hillary. I'm not sure the entire M$M is on board. A couple of months ago Tweety tried to hype Hillary as a "witch" for being critical on some issue. The rest of his guests refused to play along with his game. That could change of course.

I would not have as big a problem with Hillary is she was not so blatantly triangulating, right along with the DLC, and pandering to the RWNM instead of the progressive, activist base of the party. I also have a lot of problems with Bill's move even further to the right since he left office.

I think my problem is with the political construction more accurately described as "BillandHillary." Both of them are tacking right to "position" themselves as "centrists." Both of them are pandering to Bushco.

by Gary Boatwright on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 07:18:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here's another way of looking at it (3.00 / 1)

"I would not have as big a problem with Hillary is she was not so blatantly triangulating..."

Absolutely, I don't think she is doing anyone any favors with her positioning. In terms of Chris's post, I have to wonder if I would feel differently if I was somebody like Bob Shrum.

This administration sucks.
by thief on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 07:39:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here's another way of looking at it (none / 0)

RWNM has influenced the way that we react to Hillary  

I don't think this is true.  I think the RWNM has influenced the way that Hillary reacts.  

by oakland on Sun Jan 15, 2006 at 04:51:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here's another way of looking at it (none / 0)

That's surely true, that Hilary is reacting to what is said about her, but I was focussing on why the blogosphere reacts the way it does to her.

I think widespread propaganda affects everyone.

This administration sucks.
by thief on Sun Jan 15, 2006 at 11:01:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Hillary's problem is no principles (3.00 / 2)

There is room for the elitest theory in combination with the recognition that many oppose Hillary because she has shown that she does not stand on principles. She caves in to right-wing causes to build support that she considers more important than protecting constitutional values. She votes for a war to show that she can be strong on national security, letting politics trump human lives. The fact that she may have a strong progressive voting record is merely relative to others in Congress rather than a statement as to her strength on progressive/liberal issues. What we hear all the time, is not just that people do not support Hillary, but there is a problem with supporting Democrats who do not appear to any longer believe in liberal/progressive values and no longer function as an opposition party.
by Patriot Daily News Clearinghouse on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 04:57:30 PM EST

why do progressive net people hate Hillary? (3.00 / 3)

I ask this all the time and the answers I get are

  1.  She supports the Iraq war.  This is far and away the most important reason.  It is the biggest issue of our time and she is on the wrong side of it.  That alone would be enough for most of us to be against her.

  2.  She is obviously blowing with the wind of the polls.  Triangulating, splitting the difference, etc.  People I talk to want a leader, not a calculating pol.

I actually think she might be a good Prez.  I think she would be a horrible candidate.  I am tired of losing.  I want someone who will galvanize