How Not to Win the Democratic Nomination

It's one thing to say that your party needs to sharpen up its message on foreign policy. It's another thing to give credibility to the GOP's accusation that our party is not serious about national security. Speaking in Iowa, Evan Bayh parrots the worst of the DLC talking points:

"Many Americans wonder if we're willing to use force to defend the country even under the most compelling of circumstances," Bayh said. "The majority of Democrats would answer that question that, yes, there is a right place and a right time. We don't get to have that discussion because many people don't think we have the backbone."
. . .
Bayh said his electoral success in heavily Republican Indiana and moderate views are a model for Democrats to end their recent electoral failures. Summing up those failures are polls that show voters overwhelmingly trusting Republicans on national security, he said.

"We've got a few voices out there who would be a little bit more on the fringe," Bayh said. "Unfortunately, too often they define the entire party."

No, Senator.  Too often, the GOP's spin machine and their all-too-willing accomplices in the media allow these so-called "fringe" figures to define our party. One wonders who Bayh is referring to, anyway? Is he talking about the 99.5% of the House Democratic Caucus that voted to authorize the war in Afghanistan after 9/11? Or is he talking about the Democrats who warned that the Iraq War was an ill-advised and ill-timed diversion from the campaign against Al Qaeda?

I'll admit that Bayh's got a point when he says that our party has an image problem. But the image problem is just that -- an image problem. A recent letter to the editor in the Wall Street Journal from Wesley Clark went after this same perception.

In your June 30 editorial "Wanted: A Constructive Opposition," following the president's speech on Iraq, you chided me and a number of other Democrats for simply critiquing the president's plan rather than offering our own. Your criticisms are both incorrect and misplaced.

I and others have offered our plans again and again. We called for a diplomatic strategy in the region -- rather than relying wholly on threats and warning -- more and better equipped U.S. forces focused on training the Iraqis, and a more intensive effort to promote political and economic development in Iraq.

Bayh gives weight to GOP claims of a weak, idea-less Democratic Party by repeating them and handwringing over how to neutralize them. What he doesn't do is simply refute the claims. By contrast, Clark's strategy is to take the charge that Democrats are "fringe" and lack "backbone" and upend it. No, you're wrong, here's why. And that is what we need more of from party leaders -- not a nervous shift to the right to appease the Republican Party.



Display:


Bayh has a really nasty future ahead of him (none / 0)

Triangulate, have membership in the DCCC and it is open season...the 11th Commandment cap is lifted.

May the netroots give him a giant shitburger, because he's begging for it.

by blogswarm on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 04:48:51 AM EST

fuck-ups don't get promoted (none / 0)

Continuing to support the Iraq War makes Bayh a fuck-up.

If the Dems promoted fuck-ups, what would separate us from the GOP?

Rrrinnggg... Time to change the government.
by Carl Nyberg on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 04:48:54 AM EST

Re: fuck-ups don't get promoted (none / 0)

Do you support immediate unconditional withdrawal from Iraq?
http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 05:22:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

lose-lose (none / 0)

Do you admit Bush, Bayh and Hillary put us in a no-win situation in Iraq?
Rrrinnggg... Time to change the government.
by Carl Nyberg on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 05:34:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: lose-lose (none / 0)

I see you are unable or unwilling to take a coherent position on Iraq. This is what people talk about when they say the dems criticize but do not offer a real alternative.

Sorry, I don't group Bush -- the one who used false intelligence to deceive Congress into voting for the war -- with Bayh and Hillary who had to base their support on that false intelligence, not to mention a public in 2003 that was polling in the mid 70's in support of invading Iraq -- the same public which was likewise deceived by Bush and irresponsible MSM.

Hillary takes the same stance as Kerry, which for some reason is too nuanced for the liberal base and the conservatives to understand, yet I find quite simple: Bush lied to get us into Iraq but we're there now. It's irresponsible to just withdraw and leave the country to chaos and civil war. Bush needs to be honest with the people about the reality of the situation and present reforms and an exit strategy. What is the measure of success?

Current polls show the Iraq war support falling to the low 40s, meanwhile a majority of Americans still say stay the course until stability is restored. Hillary and Kerry's position is the vital center. Bush and the anti-war liberals are not.

You can answer my question now: do you support immediate and unconditional withdrawal from Iraq?

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 07:17:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kerry lite is lose-lose (none / 0)

Hillary takes the same stance as Kerry

Well there's a ringing endorsement for Hillarious. Let's re-run Kerry's campaign. Great idea. Hillary and Kerry are vital Bush sockpuppets and Karl Rove appreciates their help. The Democratic primary voters are going to demand an anti-Iraq war  and Freedom of Choice Democrat. Hillarious and Kerry are both kidding themselves if they think they can win the Democratic primary with a "stay the course" message on Iraq. They should both do themselves and the party a favor and stick to their Senate seats.

by Gary Boatwright on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 11:13:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: lose-lose (none / 0)

For the current administration, yes, it's a no-win situation.  But a competent administration could fix it.  We have to look toward the future.  

What bothers me about the DLCers is that many of them voted for the IWR and are unwilling to admit that was WRONG.  OK, I just contradicted myself--I just said we need to look toward the future, but I'm not sure this thing can be fixed until the world hears our leadership admit that we shouldn't have done it.

What do we need to do to fix it?  We need to convince Syria and Iran to stop feeding the insurgency.  They're feeding the insurgency because they think they'll be next.  So, we have to admit that Iraq was a mistake to help convince them that we won't do this shit again.

We have to beg for forgiveness from our allies to get them actively involved in Iraq.  Yes, we'll still have to provide most of the money and manpower, but if we can do it wearing an international "hat" rather than an essentially unilateral hat, I think we'll be much less hated and therefore more effective.  But we can't get that help unless we admit to the world that we bit off more than we could chew and we shouldn't have done it.

So, I think that in order to make this a winnable situation, we need to admit what we've done wrong and then look toward the future.  The current administration is unwilling to do either.  The DLCers are unwilling ot admit what they did wrong.

by ICantBelieve on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 11:11:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: lose-lose (none / 0)

I'm not a DLC'er, I'm an independent, but I supported the authorization to go to war in the context of the time and as intended; not a blank check to go to war and circumvent a UN vote. So why would I admit it's wrong if I don't think so? Just as I believed in giving Clinton authorization to go to war in 1999 (disclosure: I'm a kosovo vet), something republicans and many liberals opposed, I believed Bush should have the authorization needed to apply pressure to Saddam, however he lied and broke his promise as a condition of that authorization: final UN approval.
http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 02:01:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: lose-lose (none / 0)

Because it WAS a blank check.  And you signed it.

Has Clinton said, "It was wrong to go to war.  I'm sorry I trusted GWB.  I'm sorry I gave him a blank check.  If I had it to do over, I would not have voted yes but would have instead pushed for a resolution that required GWB to come back to Congress before attacking"?

by ICantBelieve on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 02:11:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: lose-lose (none / 0)

I don't believe it was a blank check. Bush apparently did. Recall that public support for an Iraq invasion was polling in the 70's at the time and on the heels of large democratic losses in 2002. The democrats did not have much choice but to try and force Bush to go diplomatic as a condition for the authorization. The deal they got was pretty much the best case scenario, and many didn't think even Bush would have the gall to blatantly disregard the main condition of a UNSC vote to proceed -- but Bush is a gifted propangandist.
http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 03:08:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: lose-lose (none / 0)

It WAS a blank check.  He went to war with it.  Therefore, it was a blank check.  And your person signed it.  BTW, I don't hear her running around complaining that it was not a blank check and it was used inappropriately.  If Bush abused it, why aren't we hearing about it?
by ICantBelieve on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 03:29:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: lose-lose (none / 0)

Nope, it wasn't a blank check.

When a loan officer (Congress) runs a person's credit (Bush admin) co-signed (by public opinion in support of war) and decides to approve him for financing a car (war authorization) on agreement that he will pay a fixed down payment (get UN approval), but then he reneges on his promise (no UN vote) and drives off with the car (coalition of the willing / invasion)...the bank didn't give the customer an open credit line (blank check). The customer stole the goddamn car (lied / swindled Congress and public). We can argue about the credit check all day (rationale for trusting Bush), but in the end the loan officer cannot be blamed for the customer committing grand theft auto (being a lying warmongering sack).

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 08:09:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: lose-lose (none / 0)

I think I understand why you are such a fan of Kerry and Hillary. Your comment is even better than "I voted for it before I voted against it." I love all the nuance and complexity you add with your parens. Very impressive and almost as clear as mud.

I'm sure there's a point hiding in that comment somewhere. Could you take another four or five paragraphs to explain it to me?

Wait a minute! It's coming to me! Kerry and Hillary are suckers who bought a bill of goods from Bush.

See how easy things are when you aren't beating around the Bush?

by Gary Boatwright on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 11:19:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: lose-lose (none / 0)

Complicated nuance? That was a simple analogy even a 5th grader could understand. I'm sorry you spent the last couple hours deciphering it.
http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 06:49:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: lose-lose (none / 0)

The nuance was lost in between all of the parentheticals. A simple analogy does not require a whole string of messy parentheticals. I didn't even bother reading it. I was too busy laughing out loud at the format and structure.
by Gary Boatwright on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 11:04:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: lose-lose (none / 0)

If I hadn't included parentheses, we both know you'd have had an even more difficult time comprehending my brilliant analogy. I've learned that to speak to a 5 year old, you must use their language.
http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sun Aug 07, 2005 at 03:30:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: lose-lose (none / 0)

You're really not getting it.

IT WAS USED TO GO TO WAR.  IT WAS.  IT WAS.

You can claim up and down til next Tuesday that it wasn't intended as a blank check.  But the fact is, IT WAS USED AS ONE.  So, either your candidate intentionally signed a blank check or was duped into signing a blank check.  Take your pick.  I won't argue either way.

by ICantBelieve on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 12:40:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: lose-lose (none / 0)

I agree it was used to go to war. However, it was not intended to be. Otherwise Congress would have simply voted to declare war rather than vote on authorization to increase presidential power to use force.

Yes, my candidate along with 70% of the country was duped into supporting what eventually led to Bush starting the war.

We're there now. So how do we fix it?

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 06:52:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: lose-lose (none / 0)

http://securingamerica.com/issues/iraqplan

Of course it would also help if your candidate and the other 70% of Americans admitted that they'd been duped.  And, it's not like there weren't plenty of people telling them all along that they were being duped.

by ICantBelieve on Sun Aug 07, 2005 at 02:00:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: lose-lose (none / 0)

Pointless. Admitting or not admitting being duped is not a policy.

Again I ask: we're there now, so how do we fix Iraq? Or like General-I-dunno-Boatwright do you also have no alternatives, just complaints?

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sun Aug 07, 2005 at 03:32:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: lose-lose (none / 0)

Too bad you didn't follow the link I posted that showed what needs to be done.  

And, yes, it is necessary to admit we shouldn't have gone.  Otherwise, nobody will believe that Hillary isn't just swaying in the political wind.

by ICantBelieve on Sun Aug 07, 2005 at 01:27:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: lose-lose (none / 0)

Swaying in the political wind? That sounds like a 2004 GOP talking point. Let's address what your real problem with her is: any issue she doesn't agree with the left wing on. That's the same rationale that the cons use, of course. I'd tend to think it's pretty weak rationale.

As far as I've seen, she hasn't swayed on Iraq at all and that's actually what you wish she would do. If someone believes in something, they don't succumb to pressure...including that from the liberal wing.

Regarding the article and Clark's plan. That's the same plan Kerry put forward in 2004. That's the same plan as Hillary's. In fact, that's basically the moderate plan, because as you notice it suggests adding more troops, something the liberal base opposes greatly. Most on the left are calling for withdrawal -- they would never accept escalation similar to Vietnam in the face of a growing insurgency.

You want people to apologize for IWR yet you support a plan that calls for increasing troops in Iraq?

Also, that plan is very nuanced. Which was Kerry's problem in the first place -- easy for the GOP to spin as something they are already doing or looking into. The last third of the plan deals with future policy and not Iraq today, and hoping to turn it over to NATO is impossible. No NATO partner will touch Iraq and expose themselves to great liability when it's such a mess and rests clearly in Bush's lap as it is. The opportunity to internationalize the effort was blown when Bush invaded without UN cover.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 12:42:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Got a link? (none / 0)

SORRY!!!  I don't want a president who thinks this war was the right thing to do.  Do you have a link to the place where she said it was wrong?
by ICantBelieve on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 01:59:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Buzz words (none / 0)

What do you mean by immediate and unconditional?
by Gary Boatwright on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 06:21:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Buzz words (none / 0)

How much clearer can I be? Maybe Nader said it best:

What else do the Democrats need to jettison their chronic cowardliness? Well they can sign on to Cong. House Congressional Resolution 35, urging Bush "to develop and implement a plan to begin the immediate withdrawal of U.S. armed forces from Iraq. Led by Rep. Lynn Woolsey and about 30 other Democrats, the Party can at least take this modest step.

http://www.nader.org/template.php?/archives/41-Passing-The-Buck.html#extended

I don't always agree with Nader, but I admire his clear articulate ballsy stances on every issue. Now if only the anti-war liberals would be as courageous. Do you support immediate withdrawal or do you agree with the moderates OR do you agree with Bush? Where do you stand?

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 07:26:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Buzz words (1.00 / 0)

Ahhh! Of course you had to add the word "unconditional." I suspected as much. You are incapable of honestly stating anyone else's position. You are a pathological liar and have bad character to boot.

do you agree with the moderates OR do you agree with Bush? Where do you stand?

Another tactic of frustrated high school debaters who couldn't cut the mustard or make the team. A false dichotomy. I have my own position and it is exactly the plan that you linked to.:

urging Bush "to develop and implement a plan to begin the immediate withdrawal of U.S. armed forces from Iraq

By urging Bush to develop and implement a plan to begin immediate withdrawal of U.S. forces the brave Democrats who took a stand on principle are forcing Bush into a corner. The sockpuppet DLCers like yourself and Hillarious who have their heads firmly impacted up Dick Cheney's rectal cavity are too busy smelling the Turd Blossoms to grasp political reality.

The secret to being a fighting Democrat is fighting Republicans. The secret to being a Bush sockpuppet is joining the Dipshit Losers Club like Hillarious did.

by Gary Boatwright on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 04:25:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Buzz words (none / 0)

Oops! You parlayed a naked personal attack and obviously forgot we are now abiding by your standards. That deserves a 1. Try and stick to the issues Gary.

Nope, urging Bush to change plans or admit fault are not policies and are not alternatives. Wow, you really are a policy neophyte. How laughable that you lay the Iraq debacle at the feet of Bush, yet demand the same incompetent fool devise the next plan to get us out of it! I can see it now: a drunk drives Gary into the ditch, and instead of taking the wheel, he demands the drunk drive him out of it. Bwahaha!

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 08:18:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Buzz words (none / 0)

As I've repeated several times already, I am encouraging Democrats to develop an exit strategy. I know the concept of Democrats actually having a position and fighting for it is an alien concept to John Kerry and Hillarious.

I don't get in the car with drunk drivers and I don't let friends drive drunk. I also don't follow DLC sheep over the cliff of failed policies.

by Gary Boatwright on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 11:23:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Buzz words (none / 0)

I agree democrats should develop an exit strategy. If they would, maybe the people would actually be looking for new leadership in the war. So far I just hear criticisms and no alternatives.

I already stated my exit strategy and Hillary's position, but it is too nuanced for you.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 06:58:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Buzz words (none / 0)

Don't blame me if you can't comprehend the clear cut solutions I have offered. You might try advanced reading comprehension classes for trolls. I'm sure there is one at a nearby troll community college near you.
by Gary Boatwright on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 11:07:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Buzz words (none / 0)

Yawn. You've proposed nothing, just like the rest of the antiwar Michael Moores.

Complaints are not a policy. Withdrawal is not a policy. Blame isn't a policy. And your laughable proposal that Bush come up with a better plan is just retarded -- very apparent you have absolutely no military or policy background. You'd never have the courage for one thing.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sun Aug 07, 2005 at 03:36:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: fuck-ups don't get promoted (3.00 / 0)

They DLCer do NOT support the war... they support the CORPORATIONS behind the war... a little fact finding would see the Clintons fingers in a lot of military industries pies.
Besides telling us how to live, think, marry, pray, vote, invest, educate our children and, die, the GOP has done a fine job of getting gov't out of our lives.
by Parker on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 07:42:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm confused (none / 0)

What point are you responding to?
Rrrinnggg... Time to change the government.
by Carl Nyberg on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 12:41:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm confused (3.00 / 1)

I can't speak for Parker, but I believe she is raising a related issue. The Democratic party is just as tied in to the military industrial complex as Republicans. Just as many Democrats want bases and defense contracts in their district at Republicans. We make a mistake if we credit Democratic politicians as being more nobel than Republican politicians. They all want to bring home the bacon and take free vacations. All politicians want camapaign contributions from the defense industry.
by Gary Boatwright on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 01:47:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm confused (2.00 / 0)

 I was distraught to find that my telling you to "eat rat shit you pencil-dicked ass-face" got banned by "desmoulins".  Would you please rate it the "excellent" it deserves, so that should anyone search for "pencil-dicked ass-face" on MyDD they'll come up with the oh-so-appropriate result; "Gary Boatwright"?

God bless, you Jesus sockpuppet.

Invest in nature
by NCDem on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 02:08:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm confused (none / 0)

It's getting about time to have another "Flame War" diary, Dr. Matlock... (not today, though... the tension has to be higher)... you Gary sockpuppet.

Invest in nature
by NCDem on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 04:03:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm confused (none / 0)

C'mon. You were way over the line and all you got was a little ole "lame". Had nothing to do with Gary. I've been uprating a bunch of people who were downrated by Bill Felmlee and saw your flamin' bag o' poop. Now I know that you know that you deserved it so whats the beef? BTW, thanks for the promotion. MS does not equal PhD.
by Curt Matlock on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 04:11:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm confused (3.00 / 1)

Is Bill Felmlee troll rating comments he disagrees with? There are so many DLC types troll rating substantive comments because they are truthful that I don't even check any more.
by Gary Boatwright on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 04:17:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Rating (none / 0)

Nah, just laming them. But several at least were substantive posts that I agreed with.
by Curt Matlock on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 04:34:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm confused (none / 0)

come on Gary... DLC "sockpuppets"... What's this "types" bullshit?  don't disappoint your fans.
Invest in nature
by NCDem on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 04:58:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm confused (none / 0)

Don't get too paranoid.  I do not troll or lame rate all of your comments.  

The one's I do troll are the ones without substance, more vacuous.

If you want to take it personally, then fine.  But you do not need to.

by Bill Felmlee on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 05:48:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

paranoid (none / 0)

I see you... Seriously, I do.
Invest in nature
by NCDem on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 06:37:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm confused (3.00 / 0)

That was meant as an insult, not a promotion (having a FUD myself).
And I deserve nothing of the sort... All of my comments are witty and amazingly insightful.  
Invest in nature
by NCDem on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 04:52:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm confused (none / 0)

There's your well deserved 3 you crybaby pocket protector wearing little geek. I hope you're happy now.
by Gary Boatwright on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 04:15:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm confused (3.00 / 0)

"well-deserved"... Exactly... I normally don't care, but to have such spot-on witty commentary permanently banned from this site would otherwise have been a complete and utter travesty.  
Invest in nature
by NCDem on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 04:47:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm confused (none / 0)

That's what you get for being an overly sensitive, knuckle dragging bawl baby. Here's another 3 just to teach you a lesson.
by Gary Boatwright on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 05:53:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm confused (none / 0)

3-ratings bore me... 2's are more fun to get, because they're more like a quick "Yeah, I disagree, but I'm too lazy to tell you why".  1's are just plain stupid and useless... mainly because I hate the term "troll".  I think they should change the "troll" label to "dipshit"... That would be a much more fun rating to receive.  Trusted user status is also pretty boring, because basically you only get to read the deleted posts of Japanese spammers.  I think that trusted users should get to vie for "more trusted" (where you get some of the blogad profits) and then "most trusted" where you get to take turns telling Chris and the new guy what to do for their pittance.
Invest in nature
by NCDem on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 06:49:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm confused (1.00 / 1)

haha, i won't bore you then.
by Jerome Armstrong on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 03:47:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm confused (3.00 / 1)

Well in that case you'll get nothing but 3's from me pal. But first, let's all bow our heads in prayer for NCDem's boring life.
by Gary Boatwright on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 04:29:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm confused (none / 0)

I was not aware of that. Some people have no sense of humor. I will look for it and do what I can. Geshundheit, you godless heathen spawn of Satan.
by Gary Boatwright on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 04:10:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm confused (none / 0)

The entire MyDD community thanks you, Gary.  Peace and calm are restored to the net-force... Now why don't you get away from the computer, and go knock on your heathen neighbors' doors and save them from the hell to which you damn them.  you slobbering god-fearing dork.
Invest in nature
by NCDem on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 04:56:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm confused (none / 0)

I have to finish my Presbyterian evangelizing end of days sermon for my Bible study group first.
by Gary Boatwright on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 05:54:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm confused (none / 0)

Actually wayward Presbyterians are not very big on the whole Jesus thing. At least they weren't thirty years ago. Truthfully, I can't recall the last time I went to church. I think I was married in a church, but the massive quantities of alcohol and drugs I consumed that night blur my recall. Worst mistake of my life and I think it happened in a church. I believe I've developed an allergy.
by Gary Boatwright on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 04:33:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

See my diary (none / 0)

On the subject:

Closing the security gap

The MOQUOL--I Can Save You, America!

by Dr Tom More on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 04:52:06 AM EST

Re: See my diary (none / 0)

Absolutely hilarious! I much prefer the Dr Tom More newswire version to the AP's...
by Scott Shields on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 04:59:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: See my diary (none / 0)

I thank you!
by Dr Tom More on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 05:04:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

my letter to Bayh (none / 0)

Sen. Bayh,

You were wrong and I was right. Iraq wasn't a threat to the United States before President Bush invaded.

Were you foolish enough to think Iraq was a threat?
Or were you too cowardly to stand against Bush?

It seems you are either incompetent on security issues or you are a cowardly political weathervane.

In either case, you have no right to criticize my brothers and sisters who were right about invading Iraq. It was a bad idea.

And taking a bunch of money from the Israel lobby while implying you were "tough" on Iraq makes you a whore to boot.

Rrrinnggg... Time to change the government.
by Carl Nyberg on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 05:17:03 AM EST

Clark's message was Kerry's message in 2004 (3.00 / 0)

Even Kerry's significant military credentials couldn't convince many swing voters leaning right of his ability to take over the commander and chief role from Bush who polled consistently higher in matters of national/homeland security. The image problem is real, undeserved, and a product of the Right Wing Noise Machine.

I get Bayh's point of view, but he's a conservative democrat from Indiana, and understandably he thinks the formula that gets him re-elected is the right one. To me, he's as wrong as those in the liberal wing who think a straight anti-war stance is the winning ticket. Both sides completely missing the point of general election dynamics where you must appeal to the widest swath of mainstream voters. While support for the war has fallen to a minority, the public also consistently polls majority in favor of staying the course in Iraq until it is stabilized. Therefore the answer isn't straight anti-war, nor pro-Iraq.

Hackett had the right position and credentials to immunize himself against the right-wing's typical attacks on national security credentials. This guy called the president a son of a bitch, yet still maintained enough patriotic credibility among conservatives to come within 4000 votes of victory!

Strongly support the war on terror and national security, but oppose the Iraq war as executed and managed by Bush. Oppose Bush the man, but state you're willing to die for the president and your country. You talk about straddling the middle and being ingeniously good at it! Hackett has a great future ahead of him in politics.

JFK democrats, that's the ticket, imo. Back in 1963 was there any doubt that a democrat would be willing to put all the chips on the table to protect Americans, in the face of nuclear war if need be? Hell no.

The republicans and the democrats both have their "wingers" that tend to embarrass the party moderates from time to time (Pat Robertson, Michael Moore, etc), the republicans are just better at damage control and cutthroat politics.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 05:20:47 AM EST

Kerry and Hillary (2.00 / 0)

Kerry lost because he didn't have a message that made sense.

BTW, Hillary is a fuck-up too. Nominating Hillary makes about as much sense as promoting Condi.

Rrrinnggg... Time to change the government.
by Carl Nyberg on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 05:34:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Kerry is a Loser (none / 0)

Exactly. It was the lack of a message and a communication strategy. Hillary seems to be going down the same track. Clark is on the right track.
by mysteve on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 05:08:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kerry is a Loser (none / 0)

Clark will make a fantastic VP pick for Hillary's ticket.

Having served under Clark in Operation Allied Force (kosovo), I still am tickled pink by all you liberals adopting that moderate as your flag bearer!

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 07:37:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kerry is a Loser (3.00 / 0)

Clark's popularity has less to do with stereotypes like "conservative," "moderate," and "liberal" and more to do with the fact that he won't sell his soul to the highest corporate bidder, like the DLC candidates have done / are doing.
by material boy on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 08:34:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kerry is a Loser (none / 0)

Oh really? And this is based on Clark's extensive political background and track record I gather? I expect Clark to refuse corporate donations in future campaigns.

Another irony is that the liberal base at first opposed Clark's candidacy in 2004 because he was supposedly a Clinton mole, having inherited many former Clinton staff.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 09:30:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kerry is a Loser (3.00 / 0)

You're pretty uninformed.  Clark showed his mettle by standing up for his beliefs during Kosovo.  He showed his mettle by standing up for Howard Dean when all the DLCers were saying, "He doesn't speak for us."  He showed his mettle when he signed up for Fox in order to spread the truth to the sheeple even though he knew many left wingers would hold it against him.

Clark's motto is "Country first."  And that's really all that matters.  

by ICantBelieve on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 10:50:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kerry is a Loser (1.50 / 2)

Scroll up -- I actually served under Clark in the Kosovo campaign. So please, spare me the explanation of Clark's character. The guy is a moderate and a hawk; he simply opposes the Iraq war and thinks it's woefully mismanaged. You'd remember this if you liberals wouldn't so conveniently disregard all the things you were saying about him in 2004 when you basically called him a Clinton mole.

In 2004 his position was nearly identical to Kerry's: we're stuck there so let's correct the bungling mismanagement. Watched Fox lately? Clark believes we should stay the course and stabilize the country, not withdraw.

Talk about uninformed. You're supporting a moderate and you don't even know it.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 02:09:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kerry is a Loser (3.00 / 0)

You're full of it on this one.  Totally.  You served under him in Kosovo?  On his political positions?  I think not.  

Your opinions on him are WRONG.  He's not a moderate.  Look at his stances on the issues.  Talk to him about them.  Have you ever done that?  I shouldn't even ask the question because you obviously have not or you would not use words like HAWK in reference to him.

Frankly, regardless of the fact that you did serve under him, I certainly would NEVER trust your opinion more than someone like Sadako Ogata, and she would never classify someone like Clark as a hawk.

Furthermore, I was not calling him those things in 2004.  Stop making things up.  I've been a Clark supporter since I saw him on CNN in 2003.  I contribution to his campaign in 2004 repeatedly.  I've contributed to WesPAC both last year and this year.  I supported Kerry at Clark's request after Clark left the race.  I drove to Cincinnati to support Hackett at Clark's request.  My support for him has done nothing but grow stronger over the past two years, but I, nor any of the other Clark supporters I work with have EVER called Wes Clark a Clinton Mole.  

"stay the course" is not the same as "stabilize the country."  Yes, Clark believes we have to stabilize the country.  But he has definite plans for how to do it that he's expressed over and over and over again to anyone who's listening.  And it's definitely not "stay the course."  If all you see are "pull out now" or "stabilize", then, yes, Clark and Kerry's position were nearly identical.  But it's significantly more complex than that.  And I do believe also that Kerry has continued to stick with going in was the right thing to do.  Let's not forget that Clark testified against going to Iraq in 2002.  Doesn't sound like a hawk or like Kerry to me.

So, it's cute that you pull out that you served under Clark in Kosovo.  I commend you for your service.  But that certainly does not make you an expert on Wesley Clark.  And it certainly does not give you the right to make false statements about my support of him.

by ICantBelieve on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 03:50:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

America will never elect a woman CinC (none / 0)

Hillary is not a serious candidate for President during a faux war on terrorism. The Joint Chiefs will allow gays to openly participate in the armed services before a woman is elected President during a time of war.
by Gary Boatwright on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 09:28:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

what's so great about HRC? (3.00 / 0)

Nominating HRC will screw the down ballot candidates b/c a large portion of the activists will be working for a minor party candidate.

What is so great about HRC that you would risk this?

Rrrinnggg... Time to change the government.
by Carl Nyberg on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 11:31:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: what's so great about HRC? (none / 0)

I don't buy that. People said the same in 2004 and Nader pulled as many votes as Badnarik, cancelling each other out.

I agree with most of Hillary's policy positions for one thing. Another is that Bill Clinton is my favorite president of all time and I think his insight under a Hillary administration would be invaluable after 8 years of Bush devolving us back to the 20th century. Third, I feel she's electable*, brilliant, and the republicans will be jumping from bridges upon her oath of office.

(* barring a McCain nomination, of course)

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 02:14:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: what's so great about HRC? (3.00 / 1)

I don't like her for POTUS because she's not liberal but conservatives and moderates think she is.  I think this is a huge problem for electability.  It's like we'd have to work like dogs to get her elected against all the Rush Limbaugh "librul" talk, and then, after all that, what do we have?  A centrist!

I'd rather get an honest to goodness liberal who looks like a moderate to conservatives and moderates.  That way, it's easier to get elected and we have a real liberal in office when it's over.

by ICantBelieve on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 02:20:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: what's so great about HRC? (none / 0)

You liberals loved her before she became a senator in 2000. She was your liberal standard bearer, champion, and your inside counterweight to centrist Bill Clinton. Now all of a sudden it's the liberals who have forgotten her long liberal history, and the conservatives who have not.

She's leading her republican challenger for 2006 by 35 points because she's a brilliant politician. Even in conservative upstate NY she polls surprisingly well for a democrat, thanks to her fantastic job approval rating. Rather than assume a liberal of 50 years has become a centrist in 5, you should really cut her some slack. As president she'll be empowered to really push all the progressive policies she wants, but she'll be skilled enough to do it in a way that pleases mainstream Americans.

I understand backing your own candidates, but calling liberal icon Hillary a centrist or conservative is ludicrous based on her long history.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 03:16:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: what's so great about HRC? (3.00 / 0)

Excuse me????

Her history now includes being a DLC centrist.  Sorry.  That wipes out the past as it shows her as someone who's not willing to stand up for her liberal values.

She's leading only because she's got name recognition.  If you think anything else, you're kidding yourself.

No thanks.  I'll take an honest to goodness moderate over someone who USED to be a liberal.

by ICantBelieve on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 03:23:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kerry and Hillary (2.00 / 0)

Equating Hillary and Condi makes about as much sense as comparing Dean to Newt Gingrich -- pardon me if I borrow your logic.

As for Kerry, nuance proved to be something that the far left and the far right have in kind: they simply fail to understand complex policy positions in a complicated world. It's actually surprising that the far left criticizes Bush's with-us-or-against-us bipolar politics when they think on the same wavelength.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 07:35:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Horsepuckey (none / 0)

they simply fail to understand complex policy positions in a complicated world.

As much as I appreciate your deep and profound understanding of complex policy positions that are just way too complicated for my simple mind to comprehend, don't blame me for your failure to articulate a rational thought.

by Gary Boatwright on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 09:26:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kerry and Hillary (none / 0)

Curt Matlock deems your logic as "2-Lame" when I applied it below. Of course he totally missed the point that he is actually agreeing with me, ergo the point of my post in the first place. Therefore, I forwarded his rating to give credit to the author. Thanks Curt!
http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 09:35:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kerry and Hillary (3.00 / 0)

Although I more often than not disagree with your positions, sometimes they are coherent and worthy of hearing. So I don't troll rate you and I generally am willing to listen, skeptically, to what you have to say.

But you constantly fall into this "you liberals" crap that really pisses me off. Not to mention a nasty habit of constructing strawmen and attributing positions to people based on your "liberal" stereotype that they don't in fact hold. You're somewhat trollish in that regard.

So yes, I rated you a two when you said:

As for Kerry, nuance proved to be something that the far left and the far right have in kind: they simply fail to understand complex policy positions in a complicated world. It's actually surprising that the far left criticizes Bush's with-us-or-against-us bipolar politics when they think on the same wavelength.

This next comment of yours, which I did not rate, regarding Wesley Clark further illustrates the point about putting words in peoples mouths and attributing actions and beliefs to people based solely on their label of liberal:

You'd remember this if you liberals wouldn't so conveniently disregard all the things you were saying about him in 2004 when you basically called him a Clinton mole.

The "Lame" rating on the first comment I gave you had nothing to do with Bill or with Hillary Clinton, both of whom I consider assets to the Democratic Party. It had to do with yet another example of insulting liberals and those on the left. Somewhat smugly and arrogantly I might add. That ole' mean world is just too complicated for lefties to understand you seem to think.

That's lame.


by Curt Matlock on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 04:22:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

embarrassing the party (none / 0)

Michael Moore isn't an embarrassment to the Dems.

The fact that Bayh and HRC are considered viable nominees is an embarrassment.

Rrrinnggg... Time to change the government.
by Carl Nyberg on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 05:36:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: embarrassing the party (none / 0)

The "Dems" doesn't consist only of the base. It includes the moderates and conservative dems as well, much to your disappointment, I know. I assure you that some things that MM say are embarassing to some democrats. Do you think you'll ever see Michael Moore campaining alongside a democratic candidate in 08? Nope.
http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 07:41:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Michael Moore does not embarass the party (none / 0)

Michael Moore does not speak for the Democratic party. How can anything Moore says embarass the Democratic party? This is another Al From attack theme on liberal Democrats that he picked up from the Right Wing Slime Machine. I don't know if Michael Moore will campaign alongside any Democratic candidate and I don't care.

Have you ever thought of trying to emulate Democratic Party talking points instead of Republican Party talking points? Why is the DLC such a big fan of Ken Mehlman?

by Gary Boatwright on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 09:33:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Michael Moore does not embarass the party (2.00 / 1)

Of course I know MM doesn't represent the party. But it's the public perception that matters, and the fact remains that the GOP excels at pinning fringe activists to the party banner.

And I do think some of the things Moore says are politically embarrassing and counterproductive. I know Markos agrees because he purges people from his site that spread some of the more wilder accustations/consipiracy theories.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 07:03:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Michael Moore does not embarass the party (none / 0)

You sure do speak for Markos an awful lot.
by Gary Boatwright on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 10:22:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Michael Moore does not embarass the party (none / 0)

Well if I can't do it on dKos, I might as well do it here.
http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sun Aug 07, 2005 at 03:43:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Define your terms (3.00 / 2)

Strongly support the war on terror

(1.) What is Bush doing to fight the struggle against extreme violence or the war on whatever?

(2.) How do you support a war on whatever that has no military goals?

(3.) What is the strategy that any Democratic or Republican politician has outlined to fight the war on whatever?

by Gary Boatwright on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 06:24:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The problem is this: (none / 0)

Some (too many) voters vote for whomever is the bigger cowboy, the guy who wants to kill as many sand niggers as possible (never mind if they are even involved with terrorism or not).  Bush gave these voters what they want.
by Geotpf on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 04:58:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

got to change the rules of the game (none / 0)

To change the game you've got to challenge the rules. The DLC opposes challenging the rules because it wins when the GOP wins.
Rrrinnggg... Time to change the government.
by Carl Nyberg on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 05:22:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Define your terms (none / 0)

Strongly support the war on terror:

Let me take Gary's 3rd point, and add two of my own questions:

(1) What is the strategy that any Democratic or Republican politician has outlined to fight the "war on terror"?

  1. Does this "war on terror" as prescribed by the DLC folks include future unprovoked, unwarranted, unilateral warfare adventures?

  2. Knowing what we now know regarding the false/deceptive premise of WMDs, do you propose that democrats should still support the decision to wage the war on Iraq, especially in light of these costs we have paid and will continue to pay more of: 1750+ US casualties, 25,000-100,000+ Iraqi casualties, $500 Billion or so cost to the US tax-payer before we can possibly , tremendously undermined US credibility around the world?

(Note that I am not talking about what we should do in Iraq, now that we are there. I am supporter of not leaving until longterm stability in Iraq is ensured)

I am seeking clearcut answers to these three questions from folks such as "Bill Felmlee" etc, who are supportive of the DLC here.

Neo

CLICK to Draft Al Gore!
by NeoLiberal on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 06:47:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Define your terms (none / 0)

Ok, great questions.  I have to run into a meeting at 3:00pm, and am already late.

But I will paste this link, an item that is often misinterpreted on MyDD.  That being said, I do not 100% agree with Will Marshall's take.  But I do agree with his final thoughts.

I was a Marine Hospital Corpsman, and then a commissioned Naval Officer.  So I have some emotional baggage when it concerns these matters.  I disclose this not to seek understanding, but to point out that I am not real flexible in differing opinions (which is a shame, I admit).

Will check back later.  Thanks for calling me out.

http://www.ppionline.org/ppi_ci.cfm?knlgAreaID=124&subsecid=307&contentid=253472

by Bill Felmlee on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 07:04:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Define your terms (none / 0)

Bill,

thanks for your response.

Ok, great questions.  I have to run into a meeting at 3:00pm, and am already late.

But I will paste this link, an item that is often misinterpreted on MyDD.  That being said, I do not 100% agree with Will Marshall's take.  But I do agree with his final thoughts.

I was a Marine Hospital Corpsman, and then a commissioned Naval Officer.  So I have some emotional baggage when it concerns these matters.  I disclose this not to seek understanding, but to point out that I am not real flexible in differing opinions (which is a shame, I admit).

My sincere thanks to you for your service to our country! And this is all the more reason why I would like to hear your unfiltered views on these important questions in very clear terms.

I have only perused Marshall's long article. Will give it a more thorough read later (and perhaps draft a detailed response to it). From what I have read, he doesn't seem to adress the key question: should we have invaded Iraq? If so, on what grounds?.

One other critical flaw i see there is that of "selective magnification" which the GOP mastered over the years, namely, take a small section of the voices on the left, and paint them as the prevailing opinion of the entire group. For instance, how many leaders from the so-called "left wing" have called for immediate troop withdrawal? Very few, such as Rep. Kucinich, have called for it.

Looking forward to your direct responses.

best regards
Neo

CLICK to Draft Al Gore!
by NeoLiberal on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 08:20:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Define your terms (none / 0)

"...should we have invaded Iraq? If so, on what grounds?."

Yes, good point. (I do not know how to place past comments in Italics...sorry).

Also, I wrote the last comment so fast, that I wrote marine instead of navy (there is no such think as a marine corpsman, but navy corpsmen are assigned to medical duty with the Marines, as I have been).

To answer your questions, of course it was wrong.  We had no ground to stand on.  

I believe that no beltway politician who voted for the resolution is going to tell you the same, unless that politician has no presidential aspirations.  With 20+ Marines dying this week, it would be high grade amunition for republicans to use against any federally elected official who used the "m" (mistake) word in 2003 and beyond.  

And I admit to you that holding on to "the right decision at the time" excuse is substandard leadership on our part.  Yet, the Senators who want to run for President, who also voted for the resolution, are damned if they say "m", and damned if they do not.

As for my opinion, if I was out there in the sand at 120+ degree heat, no bath since early July, and eating semi-warm meals, then I would rather not hear of Washington D.C. politicians having a "moral flash" and changing their minds about why we went to war.  A flawed opinion, I admit.  But if you ever had sand blown in your mouth and the only thing available was hot water from your canteen, then perhaps you may agree that any negative news from the politicians who agreed to send you there would be very demoralizing.

       

by Bill Felmlee on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 09:09:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Define your terms (none / 0)

Bill, thanks for the forthrighness in your answers. Truly befitting of a serviceman!

But, one great example of a beltway polician that stands up for what he believes in, instead of caving into any pressures and ambition-driven considerations, is Sen. Russ Feingold. I wish more elected democrats had his strength of conviction. This probably explains why he is quite popular among the progressive netroots.

I enjoyed the discussion with you, and more of this type of dialogue will be helpful to the party. Perhaps we could talk again after I read up Marshall's article in detail?

Could I request one thing though? Could you please not "downrate" posts by Gary and others that are more vocally critical simply on the grounds that they disagree with you? Drawing them into healthy dialogue may prove to be ultimately more beneficial.

And more at the DLC level, I think that they should stop demonizing Michael Moore (and implicitly Howard Dean). Howard is my hero (and that of many) for his ideals, courage, conviction, AND for his forgiveness (remember how hard he worked to try and get Kerry elected, even after Kerry and others used quite unfair tactics such as that ad. with UBL in the background; I doubt if Kerry or Edwards would have helped Howard as much, if at all, had Dean won the nomination instead), and Moore also fights for what he believes in, and while he may be brash and in-you-face, with the exception of his possible (I am not too sure) opposition to the Afghan war, I don't see anything extreme or unreasonable about his views, and his and moveon.org's efforts were probably responsible for a few million new Kerry voters. We definitely don't want to lose those votes next time around, do we?

Anyways, thanks for the discussion.

regards
Neo

CLICK to Draft Al Gore!
by NeoLiberal on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 09:50:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Define your terms (none / 0)

Thanks for your reply, sorry I did not catch it earlier (this Diary has grown!).

Regarding your last paragraph, I can find much flexibility with what you believe.  But I do believe that Kerry would have helped Dean if Dean had become the nominee.  

I understand why Dean supporters feel that it is "them against the establishment."  But Washington politics works pretty funny, a little like a sorority house and a little like a large dysfunctional family with 4 boys, 4 girls, and three bedrooms to fight over (of course, one bath).  

I was not in favor of Governor Dean to become DNC Chair.  That being said, he is the Chair and I want him to succeed.  No, strike that: we need him to succeed.  So, will Governor Dean reach out to the Al Froms (DLC) and Joe Trippis (NPI) of the party, and will they reach out to Governor Dean?

In order to achieve success, will Markos, Jerome, Joe Trippi, Al From, etc. sit down at the same table with Governor Dean, and will Dean welcome them?  They have to, they must, and we need them to.  Nothing is more powerful than coordinated collaboration to pursuade this large and diverse democratic base.  If we can unite the party early, we will spend less time bickering and more time persuading independents and moderate republicans with positive, values-based, "stand up for what you believe in" candidates.

take care.

by Bill Felmlee on Sun Aug 07, 2005 at 03:22:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Define your terms (none / 0)

I was not in favor of Governor Dean to become DNC Chair.  That being said, he is the Chair and I want him to succeed.  No, strike that: we need him to succeed.  So, will Governor Dean reach out to the Al Froms (DLC) and Joe Trippis (NPI) of the party, and will they reach out to Governor Dean?

I don't know. I obviously can't be sure, but I do believe thet Gov. Dean will be glad to meet up and confer with anyone whose core values and goals are for the most part in the right place. I also think that in his capacity as the chair of the party, he will eat his own qualms/ego/past misgivings if he thinks that it will help the party. As for others, you'll have to ask them :) It is still a mystery to me as to what exactly conspired before and after Trippi'e resignation as Dean'04 campaign mgr.

Do you know if Gov. Dean was formally invited to the recent "DLC Conversation" (or convention) that you reported from?


In order to achieve success, will Markos, Jerome, Joe Trippi, Al From, etc. sit down at the same table with Governor Dean, and will Dean welcome them?  They have to, they must, and we need them to.  Nothing is more powerful than coordinated collaboration to pursuade this large and diverse democratic base.  If we can unite the party early, we will spend less time bickering and more time persuading independents and moderate republicans with positive, values-based, "stand up for what you believe in" candidates.

I couldn't agree with you more. And the sooner this happens, the better off will be the party.

Neo

CLICK to Draft Al Gore!
by NeoLiberal on Sun Aug 07, 2005 at 07:39:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Define your terms (none / 0)

Come on, Bill (Felmlee), I am waiting for your reply :)

Also, in case Sen. Bayh is reading, I respectfully request him to answer these questions from his own perspective. Perhaps as a well-drafted myDD diary?

thanks
Neo

CLICK to Draft Al Gore!
by NeoLiberal on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 07:07:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Define your terms (none / 0)

an example of what one could call "blog-lag": i was writing this comment while Bill had already replied to my parent comment.

Neo

CLICK to Draft Al Gore!
by NeoLiberal on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 08:24:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Define your terms (none / 0)

  1. See below

  2. Show me one DLC member who supports "unprovoked, unwarranted, unilateral warfare". And I know you consider Iraq to be qualify, but that's not the same thing. They don't believe the Iraq war constitutes what you say. Most of them believe they were duped into voting for it and that now we're stuck wiping Bush's ass for him and the Iraqis he victimized.

  3. Most moderates do not support the war in hindsight and even many republicans have said if they had known what they know today, they would not have voted for the war. Supporting a return to Iraqi stability and an exit strategy is NOT support for the war in 2003.

I'll ask you what I asked someone above who predictably did not want to answer: do you support an unconditional immediate withdrawal from Iraq, letting the chips fall where they may? If we do so, we can immediately end the casuaties and taxpayer expenses. Is this your position?
http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 08:08:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Define your terms (none / 0)

  1. See below
Pls see my resp to the same.

  2. Show me one DLC member who supports "unprovoked, unwarranted, unilateral warfare". And I know you consider Iraq to be qualify, but that's not the same thing. They don't believe the Iraq war constitutes what you say. Most of them believe they were duped into voting for it and that now we're stuck wiping Bush's ass for him and the Iraqis he victimized.

Yes, their publicly stated revised view of the Iraq war does box them as being for or against "unprovoked, unwarranted, unilateral warfare".

If they were "duped" into it, they can comeout and say that. The question then of course is, exactly how they were "duped": did the CIA director tell them that he is quite certain that Iraq had WMDs? If so, did they ask him to show the evidence behind his claim in confidence? I think that in reality, it was a combination  of getting "duped" and not having the backbone to standup to Bush that made them vote the way they. To the extent that the latter is the case, they should pay a political price for it, given the gravity of the consequences of their caving in. Don't you agree?


   3. Most moderates do not support the war in hindsight and even many republicans have said if they had known what they know today, they would not have voted for the war. Supporting a return to Iraqi stability and an exit strategy is NOT support for the war in 2003.

Then, they should at least comeout in the open and state that they will not support such adventures in the future.


I'll ask you what I asked someone above who predictably did not want to answer: do you support an unconditional immediate withdrawal from Iraq, letting the chips fall where they may? If we do so, we can immediately end the casuaties and taxpayer expenses. Is this your position?

I stated in my original comment this:
(Note that I am not talking about what we should do in Iraq, now that we are there. I am supporter of not leaving until longterm stability in Iraq is ensured)

Does it answer your question?

There is absolutely no way that we