How Not to Win the Democratic Nomination

It's one thing to say that your party needs to sharpen up its message on foreign policy. It's another thing to give credibility to the GOP's accusation that our party is not serious about national security. Speaking in Iowa, Evan Bayh parrots the worst of the DLC talking points:

"Many Americans wonder if we're willing to use force to defend the country even under the most compelling of circumstances," Bayh said. "The majority of Democrats would answer that question that, yes, there is a right place and a right time. We don't get to have that discussion because many people don't think we have the backbone."
. . .
Bayh said his electoral success in heavily Republican Indiana and moderate views are a model for Democrats to end their recent electoral failures. Summing up those failures are polls that show voters overwhelmingly trusting Republicans on national security, he said.

"We've got a few voices out there who would be a little bit more on the fringe," Bayh said. "Unfortunately, too often they define the entire party."

No, Senator.  Too often, the GOP's spin machine and their all-too-willing accomplices in the media allow these so-called "fringe" figures to define our party. One wonders who Bayh is referring to, anyway? Is he talking about the 99.5% of the House Democratic Caucus that voted to authorize the war in Afghanistan after 9/11? Or is he talking about the Democrats who warned that the Iraq War was an ill-advised and ill-timed diversion from the campaign against Al Qaeda?

I'll admit that Bayh's got a point when he says that our party has an image problem. But the image problem is just that -- an image problem. A recent letter to the editor in the Wall Street Journal from Wesley Clark went after this same perception.

In your June 30 editorial "Wanted: A Constructive Opposition," following the president's speech on Iraq, you chided me and a number of other Democrats for simply critiquing the president's plan rather than offering our own. Your criticisms are both incorrect and misplaced.

I and others have offered our plans again and again. We called for a diplomatic strategy in the region -- rather than relying wholly on threats and warning -- more and better equipped U.S. forces focused on training the Iraqis, and a more intensive effort to promote political and economic development in Iraq.

Bayh gives weight to GOP claims of a weak, idea-less Democratic Party by repeating them and handwringing over how to neutralize them. What he doesn't do is simply refute the claims. By contrast, Clark's strategy is to take the charge that Democrats are "fringe" and lack "backbone" and upend it. No, you're wrong, here's why. And that is what we need more of from party leaders -- not a nervous shift to the right to appease the Republican Party.



Display:


Bayh has a really nasty future ahead of him (none / 0)

Triangulate, have membership in the DCCC and it is open season...the 11th Commandment cap is lifted.

May the netroots give him a giant shitburger, because he's begging for it.

by blogswarm on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 04:48:51 AM EST

fuck-ups don't get promoted (none / 0)

Continuing to support the Iraq War makes Bayh a fuck-up.

If the Dems promoted fuck-ups, what would separate us from the GOP?

Rrrinnggg... Time to change the government.
by Carl Nyberg on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 04:48:54 AM EST

Re: fuck-ups don't get promoted (none / 0)

Do you support immediate unconditional withdrawal from Iraq?
http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 05:22:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

lose-lose (none / 0)

Do you admit Bush, Bayh and Hillary put us in a no-win situation in Iraq?
Rrrinnggg... Time to change the government.
by Carl Nyberg on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 05:34:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: lose-lose (none / 0)

I see you are unable or unwilling to take a coherent position on Iraq. This is what people talk about when they say the dems criticize but do not offer a real alternative.

Sorry, I don't group Bush -- the one who used false intelligence to deceive Congress into voting for the war -- with Bayh and Hillary who had to base their support on that false intelligence, not to mention a public in 2003 that was polling in the mid 70's in support of invading Iraq -- the same public which was likewise deceived by Bush and irresponsible MSM.

Hillary takes the same stance as Kerry, which for some reason is too nuanced for the liberal base and the conservatives to understand, yet I find quite simple: Bush lied to get us into Iraq but we're there now. It's irresponsible to just withdraw and leave the country to chaos and civil war. Bush needs to be honest with the people about the reality of the situation and present reforms and an exit strategy. What is the measure of success?

Current polls show the Iraq war support falling to the low 40s, meanwhile a majority of Americans still say stay the course until stability is restored. Hillary and Kerry's position is the vital center. Bush and the anti-war liberals are not.

You can answer my question now: do you support immediate and unconditional withdrawal from Iraq?

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 07:17:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kerry lite is lose-lose (none / 0)

Hillary takes the same stance as Kerry

Well there's a ringing endorsement for Hillarious. Let's re-run Kerry's campaign. Great idea. Hillary and Kerry are vital Bush sockpuppets and Karl Rove appreciates their help. The Democratic primary voters are going to demand an anti-Iraq war  and Freedom of Choice Democrat. Hillarious and Kerry are both kidding themselves if they think they can win the Democratic primary with a "stay the course" message on Iraq. They should both do themselves and the party a favor and stick to their Senate seats.

by Gary Boatwright on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 11:13:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: lose-lose (none / 0)

For the current administration, yes, it's a no-win situation.  But a competent administration could fix it.  We have to look toward the future.  

What bothers me about the DLCers is that many of them voted for the IWR and are unwilling to admit that was WRONG.  OK, I just contradicted myself--I just said we need to look toward the future, but I'm not sure this thing can be fixed until the world hears our leadership admit that we shouldn't have done it.

What do we need to do to fix it?  We need to convince Syria and Iran to stop feeding the insurgency.  They're feeding the insurgency because they think they'll be next.  So, we have to admit that Iraq was a mistake to help convince them that we won't do this shit again.

We have to beg for forgiveness from our allies to get them actively involved in Iraq.  Yes, we'll still have to provide most of the money and manpower, but if we can do it wearing an international "hat" rather than an essentially unilateral hat, I think we'll be much less hated and therefore more effective.  But we can't get that help unless we admit to the world that we bit off more than we could chew and we shouldn't have done it.

So, I think that in order to make this a winnable situation, we need to admit what we've done wrong and then look toward the future.  The current administration is unwilling to do either.  The DLCers are unwilling ot admit what they did wrong.

by ICantBelieve on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 11:11:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: lose-lose (none / 0)

I'm not a DLC'er, I'm an independent, but I supported the authorization to go to war in the context of the time and as intended; not a blank check to go to war and circumvent a UN vote. So why would I admit it's wrong if I don't think so? Just as I believed in giving Clinton authorization to go to war in 1999 (disclosure: I'm a kosovo vet), something republicans and many liberals opposed, I believed Bush should have the authorization needed to apply pressure to Saddam, however he lied and broke his promise as a condition of that authorization: final UN approval.
http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 02:01:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: lose-lose (none / 0)

Because it WAS a blank check.  And you signed it.

Has Clinton said, "It was wrong to go to war.  I'm sorry I trusted GWB.  I'm sorry I gave him a blank check.  If I had it to do over, I would not have voted yes but would have instead pushed for a resolution that required GWB to come back to Congress before attacking"?

by ICantBelieve on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 02:11:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: lose-lose (none / 0)

I don't believe it was a blank check. Bush apparently did. Recall that public support for an Iraq invasion was polling in the 70's at the time and on the heels of large democratic losses in 2002. The democrats did not have much choice but to try and force Bush to go diplomatic as a condition for the authorization. The deal they got was pretty much the best case scenario, and many didn't think even Bush would have the gall to blatantly disregard the main condition of a UNSC vote to proceed -- but Bush is a gifted propangandist.
http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 03:08:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: lose-lose (none / 0)

It WAS a blank check.  He went to war with it.  Therefore, it was a blank check.  And your person signed it.  BTW, I don't hear her running around complaining that it was not a blank check and it was used inappropriately.  If Bush abused it, why aren't we hearing about it?
by ICantBelieve on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 03:29:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: lose-lose (none / 0)

Nope, it wasn't a blank check.

When a loan officer (Congress) runs a person's credit (Bush admin) co-signed (by public opinion in support of war) and decides to approve him for financing a car (war authorization) on agreement that he will pay a fixed down payment (get UN approval), but then he reneges on his promise (no UN vote) and drives off with the car (coalition of the willing / invasion)...the bank didn't give the customer an open credit line (blank check). The customer stole the goddamn car (lied / swindled Congress and public). We can argue about the credit check all day (rationale for trusting Bush), but in the end the loan officer cannot be blamed for the customer committing grand theft auto (being a lying warmongering sack).

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 08:09:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: lose-lose (none / 0)

I think I understand why you are such a fan of Kerry and Hillary. Your comment is even better than "I voted for it before I voted against it." I love all the nuance and complexity you add with your parens. Very impressive and almost as clear as mud.

I'm sure there's a point hiding in that comment somewhere. Could you take another four or five paragraphs to explain it to me?

Wait a minute! It's coming to me! Kerry and Hillary are suckers who bought a bill of goods from Bush.

See how easy things are when you aren't beating around the Bush?

by Gary Boatwright on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 11:19:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: lose-lose (none / 0)

Complicated nuance? That was a simple analogy even a 5th grader could understand. I'm sorry you spent the last couple hours deciphering it.
http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 06:49:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: lose-lose (none / 0)

The nuance was lost in between all of the parentheticals. A simple analogy does not require a whole string of messy parentheticals. I didn't even bother reading it. I was too busy laughing out loud at the format and structure.
by Gary Boatwright on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 11:04:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: lose-lose (none / 0)

If I hadn't included parentheses, we both know you'd have had an even more difficult time comprehending my brilliant analogy. I've learned that to speak to a 5 year old, you must use their language.
http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sun Aug 07, 2005 at 03:30:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: lose-lose (none / 0)

You're really not getting it.

IT WAS USED TO GO TO WAR.  IT WAS.  IT WAS.

You can claim up and down til next Tuesday that it wasn't intended as a blank check.  But the fact is, IT WAS USED AS ONE.  So, either your candidate intentionally signed a blank check or was duped into signing a blank check.  Take your pick.  I won't argue either way.

by ICantBelieve on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 12:40:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: lose-lose (none / 0)

I agree it was used to go to war. However, it was not intended to be. Otherwise Congress would have simply voted to declare war rather than vote on authorization to increase presidential power to use force.

Yes, my candidate along with 70% of the country was duped into supporting what eventually led to Bush starting the war.

We're there now. So how do we fix it?

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 06:52:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: lose-lose (none / 0)

http://securingamerica.com/issues/iraqplan

Of course it would also help if your candidate and the other 70% of Americans admitted that they'd been duped.  And, it's not like there weren't plenty of people telling them all along that they were being duped.

by ICantBelieve on Sun Aug 07, 2005 at 02:00:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: lose-lose (none / 0)

Pointless. Admitting or not admitting being duped is not a policy.

Again I ask: we're there now, so how do we fix Iraq? Or like General-I-dunno-Boatwright do you also have no alternatives, just complaints?

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sun Aug 07, 2005 at 03:32:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: lose-lose (none / 0)

Too bad you didn't follow the link I posted that showed what needs to be done.  

And, yes, it is necessary to admit we shouldn't have gone.  Otherwise, nobody will believe that Hillary isn't just swaying in the political wind.

by ICantBelieve on Sun Aug 07, 2005 at 01:27:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: lose-lose (none / 0)

Swaying in the political wind? That sounds like a 2004 GOP talking point. Let's address what your real problem with her is: any issue she doesn't agree with the left wing on. That's the same rationale that the cons use, of course. I'd tend to think it's pretty weak rationale.

As far as I've seen, she hasn't swayed on Iraq at all and that's actually what you wish she would do. If someone believes in something, they don't succumb to pressure...including that from the liberal wing.

Regarding the article and Clark's plan. That's the same plan Kerry put forward in 2004. That's the same plan as Hillary's. In fact, that's basically the moderate plan, because as you notice it suggests adding more troops, something the liberal base opposes greatly. Most on the left are calling for withdrawal -- they would never accept escalation similar to Vietnam in the face of a growing insurgency.

You want people to apologize for IWR yet you support a plan that calls for increasing troops in Iraq?

Also, that plan is very nuanced. Which was Kerry's problem in the first place -- easy for the GOP to spin as something they are already doing or looking into. The last third of the plan deals with future policy and not Iraq today, and hoping to turn it over to NATO is impossible. No NATO partner will touch Iraq and expose themselves to great liability when it's such a mess and rests clearly in Bush's lap as it is. The opportunity to internationalize the effort was blown when Bush invaded without UN cover.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 12:42:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Got a link? (none / 0)

SORRY!!!  I don't want a president who thinks this war was the right thing to do.  Do you have a link to the place where she said it was wrong?
by ICantBelieve on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 01:59:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Buzz words (none / 0)

What do you mean by immediate and unconditional?
by Gary Boatwright on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 06:21:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Buzz words (none / 0)

How much clearer can I be? Maybe Nader said it best:

What else do the Democrats need to jettison their chronic cowardliness? Well they can sign on to Cong. House Congressional Resolution 35, urging Bush "to develop and implement a plan to begin the immediate withdrawal of U.S. armed forces from Iraq. Led by Rep. Lynn Woolsey and about 30 other Democrats, the Party can at least take this modest step.

http://www.nader.org/template.php?/archives/41-Passing-The-Buck.html#extended

I don't always agree with Nader, but I admire his clear articulate ballsy stances on every issue. Now if only the anti-war liberals would be as courageous. Do you support immediate withdrawal or do you agree with the moderates OR do you agree with Bush? Where do you stand?

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 07:26:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Buzz words (1.00 / 0)

Ahhh! Of course you had to add the word "unconditional." I suspected as much. You are incapable of honestly stating anyone else's position. You are a pathological liar and have bad character to boot.

do you agree with the moderates OR do you agree with Bush? Where do you stand?

Another tactic of frustrated high school debaters who couldn't cut the mustard or make the team. A false dichotomy. I have my own position and it is exactly the plan that you linked to.:

urging Bush "to develop and implement a plan to begin the immediate withdrawal of U.S. armed forces from Iraq

By urging Bush to develop and implement a plan to begin immediate withdrawal of U.S. forces the brave Democrats who took a stand on principle are forcing Bush into a corner. The sockpuppet DLCers like yourself and Hillarious who have their heads firmly impacted up Dick Cheney's rectal cavity are too busy smelling the Turd Blossoms to grasp political reality.

The secret to being a fighting Democrat is fighting Republicans. The secret to being a Bush sockpuppet is joining the Dipshit Losers Club like Hillarious did.

by Gary Boatwright on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 04:25:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Buzz words (none / 0)

Oops! You parlayed a naked personal attack and obviously forgot we are now abiding by your standards. That deserves a 1. Try and stick to the issues Gary.

Nope, urging Bush to change plans or admit fault are not policies and are not alternatives. Wow, you really are a policy neophyte. How laughable that you lay the Iraq debacle at the feet of Bush, yet demand the same incompetent fool devise the next plan to get us out of it! I can see it now: a drunk drives Gary into the ditch, and instead of taking the wheel, he demands the drunk drive him out of it. Bwahaha!

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 08:18:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Buzz words (none / 0)

As I've repeated several times already, I am encouraging Democrats to develop an exit strategy. I know the concept of Democrats actually having a position and fighting for it is an alien concept to John Kerry and Hillarious.

I don't get in the car with drunk drivers and I don't let friends drive drunk. I also don't follow DLC sheep over the cliff of failed policies.

by Gary Boatwright on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 11:23:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Buzz words (none / 0)

I agree democrats should develop an exit strategy. If they would, maybe the people would actually be looking for new leadership in the war. So far I just hear criticisms and no alternatives.

I already stated my exit strategy and Hillary's position, but it is too nuanced for you.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 06:58:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Buzz words (none / 0)

Don't blame me if you can't comprehend the clear cut solutions I have offered. You might try advanced reading comprehension classes for trolls. I'm sure there is one at a nearby troll community college near you.
by Gary Boatwright on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 11:07:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Buzz words (none / 0)

Yawn. You've proposed nothing, just like the rest of the antiwar Michael Moores.

Complaints are not a policy. Withdrawal is not a policy. Blame isn't a policy. And your laughable proposal that Bush come up with a better plan is just retarded -- very apparent you have absolutely no military or policy background. You'd never have the courage for one thing.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sun Aug 07, 2005 at 03:36:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: fuck-ups don't get promoted (3.00 / 0)

They DLCer do NOT support the war... they support the CORPORATIONS behind the war... a little fact finding would see the Clintons fingers in a lot of military industries pies.
Besides telling us how to live, think, marry, pray, vote, invest, educate our children and, die, the GOP has done a fine job of getting gov't out of our lives.
by Parker on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 07:42:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm confused (none / 0)

What point are you responding to?
Rrrinnggg... Time to change the government.
by Carl Nyberg on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 12:41:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm confused (3.00 / 1)

I can't speak for Parker, but I believe she is raising a related issue. The Democratic party is just as tied in to the military industrial complex as Republicans. Just as many Democrats want bases and defense contracts in their district at Republicans. We make a mistake if we credit Democratic politicians as being more nobel than Republican politicians. They all want to bring home the bacon and take free vacations. All politicians want camapaign contributions from the defense industry.
by Gary Boatwright on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 01:47:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm confused (2.00 / 0)

 I was distraught to find that my telling you to "eat rat shit you pencil-dicked ass-face" got banned by "desmoulins".  Would you please rate it the "excellent" it deserves, so that should anyone search for "pencil-dicked ass-face" on MyDD they'll come up with the oh-so-appropriate result; "Gary Boatwright"?

God bless, you Jesus sockpuppet.

Invest in nature
by NCDem on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 02:08:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm confused (none / 0)

It's getting about time to have another "Flame War" diary, Dr. Matlock... (not today, though... the tension has to be higher)... you Gary sockpuppet.

Invest in nature
by NCDem on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 04:03:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm confused (none / 0)

C'mon. You were way over the line and all you got was a little ole "lame". Had nothing to do with Gary. I've been uprating a bunch of people who were downrated by Bill Felmlee and saw your flamin' bag o' poop. Now I know that you know that you deserved it so whats the beef? BTW, thanks for the promotion. MS does not equal PhD.
by Curt Matlock on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 04:11:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm confused (3.00 / 1)

Is Bill Felmlee troll rating comments he disagrees with? There are so many DLC types troll rating substantive comments because they are truthful that I don't even check any more.
by Gary Boatwright on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 04:17:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Rating (none / 0)

Nah, just laming them. But several at least were substantive posts that I agreed with.
by Curt Matlock on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 04:34:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm confused (none / 0)

come on Gary... DLC "sockpuppets"... What's this "types" bullshit?  don't disappoint your fans.
Invest in nature
by NCDem on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 04:58:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm confused (none / 0)

Don't get too paranoid.  I do not troll or lame rate all of your comments.  

The one's I do troll are the ones without substance, more vacuous.

If you want to take it personally, then fine.  But you do not need to.

by Bill Felmlee on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 05:48:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

paranoid (none / 0)

I see you... Seriously, I do.
Invest in nature
by NCDem on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 06:37:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm confused (3.00 / 0)

That was meant as an insult, not a promotion (having a FUD myself).
And I deserve nothing of the sort... All of my comments are witty and amazingly insightful.  
Invest in nature
by NCDem on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 04:52:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm confused (none / 0)

There's your well deserved 3 you crybaby pocket protector wearing little geek. I hope you're happy now.
by Gary Boatwright on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 04:15:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm confused (3.00 / 0)

"well-deserved"... Exactly... I normally don't care, but to have such spot-on witty commentary permanently banned from this site would otherwise have been a complete and utter travesty.  
Invest in nature
by NCDem on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 04:47:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm confused (none / 0)

That's what you get for being an overly sensitive, knuckle dragging bawl baby. Here's another 3 just to teach you a lesson.
by Gary Boatwright on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 05:53:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm confused (none / 0)

3-ratings bore me... 2's are more fun to get, because they're more like a quick "Yeah, I disagree, but I'm too lazy to tell you why".  1's are just plain stupid and useless... mainly because I hate the term "troll".  I think they should change the "troll" label to "dipshit"... That would be a much more fun rating to receive.  Trusted user status is also pretty boring, because basically you only get to read the deleted posts of Japanese spammers.  I think that trusted users should get to vie for "more trusted" (where you get some of the blogad profits) and then "most trusted" where you get to take turns telling Chris and the new guy what to do for their pittance.
Invest in nature
by NCDem on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 06:49:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm confused (1.00 / 1)

haha, i won't bore you then.
by Jerome Armstrong on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 03:47:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm confused (3.00 / 1)

Well in that case you'll get nothing but 3's from me pal. But first, let's all bow our heads in prayer for NCDem's boring life.
by Gary Boatwright on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 04:29:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm confused (none / 0)

I was not aware of that. Some people have no sense of humor. I will look for it and do what I can. Geshundheit, you godless heathen spawn of Satan.
by Gary Boatwright on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 04:10:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm confused (none / 0)

The entire MyDD community thanks you, Gary.  Peace and calm are restored to the net-force... Now why don't you get away from the computer, and go knock on your heathen neighbors' doors and save them from the hell to which you damn them.  you slobbering god-fearing dork.
Invest in nature
by NCDem on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 04:56:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm confused (none / 0)

I have to finish my Presbyterian evangelizing end of days sermon for my Bible study group first.
by Gary Boatwright on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 05:54:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm confused (none / 0)

Actually wayward Presbyterians are not very big on the whole Jesus thing. At least they weren't thirty years ago. Truthfully, I can't recall the last time I went to church. I think I was married in a church, but the massive quantities of alcohol and drugs I consumed that night blur my recall. Worst mistake of my life and I think it happened in a church. I believe I've developed an allergy.
by Gary Boatwright on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 04:33:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

See my diary (none / 0)

On the subject:

Closing the security gap

The MOQUOL--I Can Save You, America!

by Dr Tom More on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 04:52:06 AM EST

Re: See my diary (none / 0)

Absolutely hilarious! I much prefer the Dr Tom More newswire version to the AP's...
by Scott Shields on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 04:59:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: See my diary (none / 0)

I thank you!
by Dr Tom More on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 05:04:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

my letter to Bayh (none / 0)

Sen. Bayh,

You were wrong and I was right. Iraq wasn't a threat to the United States before President Bush invaded.

Were you foolish enough to think Iraq was a threat?
Or were you too cowardly to stand against Bush?

It seems you are either incompetent on security issues or you are a cowardly political weathervane.

In either case, you have no right to criticize my brothers and sisters who were right about invading Iraq. It was a bad idea.

And taking a bunch of money from the Israel lobby while implying you were "tough" on Iraq makes you a whore to boot.

Rrrinnggg... Time to change the government.
by Carl Nyberg on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 05:17:03 AM EST

Clark's message was Kerry's message in 2004 (3.00 / 0)

Even Kerry's significant military credentials couldn't convince many swing voters leaning right of his ability to take over the commander and chief role from Bush who polled consistently higher in matters of national/homeland security. The image problem is real, undeserved, and a product of the Right Wing Noise Machine.

I get Bayh's point of view, but he's a conservative democrat from Indiana, and understandably he thinks the formula that gets him re-elected is the right one. To me, he's as wrong as those in the liberal wing who think a straight anti-war stance is the winning ticket. Both sides completely missing the point of general election dynamics where you must appeal to the widest swath of mainstream voters. While support for the war has fallen to a minority, the public also consistently polls majority in favor of staying the course in Iraq until it is stabilized. Therefore the answer isn't straight anti-war, nor pro-Iraq.

Hackett had the right position and credentials to immunize himself against the right-wing's typical attacks on national security credentials. This guy called the president a son of a bitch, yet still maintained enough patriotic credibility among conservatives to come within 4000 votes of victory!

Strongly support the war on terror and national security, but oppose the Iraq war as executed and managed by Bush. Oppose Bush the man, but state you're willing to die for the president and your country. You talk about straddling the middle and being ingeniously good at it! Hackett has a great future ahead of him in politics.

JFK democrats, that's the ticket, imo. Back in 1963 was there any doubt that a democrat would be willing to put all the chips on the table to protect Americans, in the face of nuclear war if need be? Hell no.

The republicans and the democrats both have their "wingers" that tend to embarrass the party moderates from time to time (Pat Robertson, Michael Moore, etc), the republicans are just better at damage control and cutthroat politics.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 05:20:47 AM EST

Kerry and Hillary (2.00 / 0)

Kerry lost because he didn't have a message that made sense.

BTW, Hillary is a fuck-up too. Nominating Hillary makes about as much sense as promoting Condi.

Rrrinnggg... Time to change the government.
by Carl Nyberg on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 05:34:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Kerry is a Loser (none / 0)

Exactly. It was the lack of a message and a communication strategy. Hillary seems to be going down the same track. Clark is on the right track.
by mysteve on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 05:08:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kerry is a Loser (none / 0)

Clark will make a fantastic VP pick for Hillary's ticket.

Having served under Clark in Operation Allied Force (kosovo), I still am tickled pink by all you liberals adopting that moderate as your flag bearer!

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 07:37:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kerry is a Loser (3.00 / 0)

Clark's popularity has less to do with stereotypes like "conservative," "moderate," and "liberal" and more to do with the fact that he won't sell his soul to the highest corporate bidder, like the DLC candidates have done / are doing.
by material boy on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 08:34:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kerry is a Loser (none / 0)

Oh really? And this is based on Clark's extensive political background and track record I gather? I expect Clark to refuse corporate donations in future campaigns.

Another irony is that the liberal base at first opposed Clark's candidacy in 2004 because he was supposedly a Clinton mole, having inherited many former Clinton staff.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 09:30:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kerry is a Loser (3.00 / 0)

You're pretty uninformed.  Clark showed his mettle by standing up for his beliefs during Kosovo.  He showed his mettle by standing up for Howard Dean when all the DLCers were saying, "He doesn't speak for us."  He showed his mettle when he signed up for Fox in order to spread the truth to the sheeple even though he knew many left wingers would hold it against him.

Clark's motto is "Country first."  And that's really all that matters.  

by ICantBelieve on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 10:50:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kerry is a Loser (1.50 / 2)

Scroll up -- I actually served under Clark in the Kosovo campaign. So please, spare me the explanation of Clark's character. The guy is a moderate and a hawk; he simply opposes the Iraq war and thinks it's woefully mismanaged. You'd remember this if you liberals wouldn't so conveniently disregard all the things you were saying about him in 2004 when you basically called him a Clinton mole.

In 2004 his position was nearly identical to Kerry's: we're stuck there so let's correct the bungling mismanagement. Watched Fox lately? Clark believes we should stay the course and stabilize the country, not withdraw.

Talk about uninformed. You're supporting a moderate and you don't even know it.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 02:09:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kerry is a Loser (3.00 / 0)

You're full of it on this one.  Totally.  You served under him in Kosovo?  On his political positions?  I think not.  

Your opinions on him are WRONG.  He's not a moderate.  Look at his stances on the issues.  Talk to him about them.  Have you ever done that?  I shouldn't even ask the question because you obviously have not or you would not use words like HAWK in reference to him.

Frankly, regardless of the fact that you did serve under him, I certainly would NEVER trust your opinion more than someone like Sadako Ogata, and she would never classify someone like Clark as a hawk.

Furthermore, I was not calling him those things in 2004.  Stop making things up.  I've been a Clark supporter since I saw him on CNN in 2003.  I contribution to his campaign in 2004 repeatedly.  I've contributed to WesPAC both last year and this year.  I supported Kerry at Clark's request after Clark left the race.  I drove to Cincinnati to support Hackett at Clark's request.  My support for him has done nothing but grow stronger over the past two years, but I, nor any of the other Clark supporters I work with have EVER called Wes Clark a Clinton Mole.  

"stay the course" is not the same as "stabilize the country."  Yes, Clark believes we have to stabilize the country.  But he has definite plans for how to do it that he's expressed over and over and over again to anyone who's listening.  And it's definitely not "stay the course."  If all you see are "pull out now" or "stabilize", then, yes, Clark and Kerry's position were nearly identical.  But it's significantly more complex than that.  And I do believe also that Kerry has continued to stick with going in was the right thing to do.  Let's not forget that Clark testified against going to Iraq in 2002.  Doesn't sound like a hawk or like Kerry to me.

So, it's cute that you pull out that you served under Clark in Kosovo.  I commend you for your service.  But that certainly does not make you an expert on Wesley Clark.  And it certainly does not give you the right to make false statements about my support of him.

by ICantBelieve on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 03:50:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

America will never elect a woman CinC (none / 0)

Hillary is not a serious candidate for President during a faux war on terrorism. The Joint Chiefs will allow gays to openly participate in the armed services before a woman is elected President during a time of war.
by Gary Boatwright on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 09:28:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

what's so great about HRC? (3.00 / 0)

Nominating HRC will screw the down ballot candidates b/c a large portion of the activists will be working for a minor party candidate.

What is so great about HRC that you would risk this?

Rrrinnggg... Time to change the government.
by Carl Nyberg on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 11:31:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: what's so great about HRC? (none / 0)

I don't buy that. People said the same in 2004 and Nader pulled as many votes as Badnarik, cancelling each other out.

I agree with most of Hillary's policy positions for one thing. Another is that Bill Clinton is my favorite president of all time and I think his insight under a Hillary administration would be invaluable after 8 years of Bush devolving us back to the 20th century. Third, I feel she's electable*, brilliant, and the republicans will be jumping from bridges upon her oath of office.

(* barring a McCain nomination, of course)

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 02:14:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: what's so great about HRC? (3.00 / 1)

I don't like her for POTUS because she's not liberal but conservatives and moderates think she is.  I think this is a huge problem for electability.  It's like we'd have to work like dogs to get her elected against all the Rush Limbaugh "librul" talk, and then, after all that, what do we have?  A centrist!

I'd rather get an honest to goodness liberal who looks like a moderate to conservatives and moderates.  That way, it's easier to get elected and we have a real liberal in office when it's over.

by ICantBelieve on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 02:20:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: what's so great about HRC? (none / 0)

You liberals loved her before she became a senator in 2000. She was your liberal standard bearer, champion, and your inside counterweight to centrist Bill Clinton. Now all of a sudden it's the liberals who have forgotten her long liberal history, and the conservatives who have not.

She's leading her republican challenger for 2006 by 35 points because she's a brilliant politician. Even in conservative upstate NY she polls surprisingly well for a democrat, thanks to her fantastic job approval rating. Rather than assume a liberal of 50 years has become a centrist in 5, you should really cut her some slack. As president she'll be empowered to really push all the progressive policies she wants, but she'll be skilled enough to do it in a way that pleases mainstream Americans.

I understand backing your own candidates, but calling liberal icon Hillary a centrist or conservative is ludicrous based on her long history.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 03:16:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: what's so great about HRC? (3.00 / 0)

Excuse me????

Her history now includes being a DLC centrist.  Sorry.  That wipes out the past as it shows her as someone who's not willing to stand up for her liberal values.

She's leading only because she's got name recognition.  If you think anything else, you're kidding yourself.

No thanks.  I'll take an honest to goodness moderate over someone who USED to be a liberal.

by ICantBelieve on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 03:23:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kerry and Hillary (2.00 / 0)

Equating Hillary and Condi makes about as much sense as comparing Dean to Newt Gingrich -- pardon me if I borrow your logic.

As for Kerry, nuance proved to be something that the far left and the far right have in kind: they simply fail to understand complex policy positions in a complicated world. It's actually surprising that the far left criticizes Bush's with-us-or-against-us bipolar politics when they think on the same wavelength.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 07:35:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Horsepuckey (none / 0)

they simply fail to understand complex policy positions in a complicated world.

As much as I appreciate your deep and profound understanding of complex policy positions that are just way too complicated for my simple mind to comprehend, don't blame me for your failure to articulate a rational thought.

by Gary Boatwright on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 09:26:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kerry and Hillary (none / 0)

Curt Matlock deems your logic as "2-Lame" when I applied it below. Of course he totally missed the point that he is actually agreeing with me, ergo the point of my post in the first place. Therefore, I forwarded his rating to give credit to the author. Thanks Curt!
http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 09:35:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kerry and Hillary (3.00 / 0)

Although I more often than not disagree with your positions, sometimes they are coherent and worthy of hearing. So I don't troll rate you and I generally am willing to listen, skeptically, to what you have to say.

But you constantly fall into this "you liberals" crap that really pisses me off. Not to mention a nasty habit of constructing strawmen and attributing positions to people based on your "liberal" stereotype that they don't in fact hold. You're somewhat trollish in that regard.

So yes, I rated you a two when you said:

As for Kerry, nuance proved to be something that the far left and the far right have in kind: they simply fail to understand complex policy positions in a complicated world. It's actually surprising that the far left criticizes Bush's with-us-or-against-us bipolar politics when they think on the same wavelength.

This next comment of yours, which I did not rate, regarding Wesley Clark further illustrates the point about putting words in peoples mouths and attributing actions and beliefs to people based solely on their label of liberal:

You'd remember this if you liberals wouldn't so conveniently disregard all the things you were saying about him in 2004 when you basically called him a Clinton mole.

The "Lame" rating on the first comment I gave you had nothing to do with Bill or with Hillary Clinton, both of whom I consider assets to the Democratic Party. It had to do with yet another example of insulting liberals and those on the left. Somewhat smugly and arrogantly I might add. That ole' mean world is just too complicated for lefties to understand you seem to think.

That's lame.


by Curt Matlock on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 04:22:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

embarrassing the party (none / 0)

Michael Moore isn't an embarrassment to the Dems.

The fact that Bayh and HRC are considered viable nominees is an embarrassment.

Rrrinnggg... Time to change the government.
by Carl Nyberg on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 05:36:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: embarrassing the party (none / 0)

The "Dems" doesn't consist only of the base. It includes the moderates and conservative dems as well, much to your disappointment, I know. I assure you that some things that MM say are embarassing to some democrats. Do you think you'll ever see Michael Moore campaining alongside a democratic candidate in 08? Nope.
http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 07:41:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Michael Moore does not embarass the party (none / 0)

Michael Moore does not speak for the Democratic party. How can anything Moore says embarass the Democratic party? This is another Al From attack theme on liberal Democrats that he picked up from the Right Wing Slime Machine. I don't know if Michael Moore will campaign alongside any Democratic candidate and I don't care.

Have you ever thought of trying to emulate Democratic Party talking points instead of Republican Party talking points? Why is the DLC such a big fan of Ken Mehlman?

by Gary Boatwright on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 09:33:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Michael Moore does not embarass the party (2.00 / 1)

Of course I know MM doesn't represent the party. But it's the public perception that matters, and the fact remains that the GOP excels at pinning fringe activists to the party banner.

And I do think some of the things Moore says are politically embarrassing and counterproductive. I know Markos agrees because he purges people from his site that spread some of the more wilder accustations/consipiracy theories.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 07:03:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Michael Moore does not embarass the party (none / 0)

You sure do speak for Markos an awful lot.
by Gary Boatwright on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 10:22:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Michael Moore does not embarass the party (none / 0)

Well if I can't do it on dKos, I might as well do it here.
http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sun Aug 07, 2005 at 03:43:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Define your terms (3.00 / 2)

Strongly support the war on terror

(1.) What is Bush doing to fight the struggle against extreme violence or the war on whatever?

(2.) How do you support a war on whatever that has no military goals?

(3.) What is the strategy that any Democratic or Republican politician has outlined to fight the war on whatever?

by Gary Boatwright on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 06:24:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The problem is this: (none / 0)

Some (too many) voters vote for whomever is the bigger cowboy, the guy who wants to kill as many sand niggers as possible (never mind if they are even involved with terrorism or not).  Bush gave these voters what they want.
by Geotpf on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 04:58:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

got to change the rules of the game (none / 0)

To change the game you've got to challenge the rules. The DLC opposes challenging the rules because it wins when the GOP wins.
Rrrinnggg... Time to change the government.
by Carl Nyberg on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 05:22:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Define your terms (none / 0)

Strongly support the war on terror:

Let me take Gary's 3rd point, and add two of my own questions:

(1) What is the strategy that any Democratic or Republican politician has outlined to fight the "war on terror"?

  1. Does this "war on terror" as prescribed by the DLC folks include future unprovoked, unwarranted, unilateral warfare adventures?

  2. Knowing what we now know regarding the false/deceptive premise of WMDs, do you propose that democrats should still support the decision to wage the war on Iraq, especially in light of these costs we have paid and will continue to pay more of: 1750+ US casualties, 25,000-100,000+ Iraqi casualties, $500 Billion or so cost to the US tax-payer before we can possibly , tremendously undermined US credibility around the world?

(Note that I am not talking about what we should do in Iraq, now that we are there. I am supporter of not leaving until longterm stability in Iraq is ensured)

I am seeking clearcut answers to these three questions from folks such as "Bill Felmlee" etc, who are supportive of the DLC here.

Neo

CLICK to Draft Al Gore!
by NeoLiberal on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 06:47:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Define your terms (none / 0)

Ok, great questions.  I have to run into a meeting at 3:00pm, and am already late.

But I will paste this link, an item that is often misinterpreted on MyDD.  That being said, I do not 100% agree with Will Marshall's take.  But I do agree with his final thoughts.

I was a Marine Hospital Corpsman, and then a commissioned Naval Officer.  So I have some emotional baggage when it concerns these matters.  I disclose this not to seek understanding, but to point out that I am not real flexible in differing opinions (which is a shame, I admit).

Will check back later.  Thanks for calling me out.

http://www.ppionline.org/ppi_ci.cfm?knlgAreaID=124&subsecid=307&contentid=253472

by Bill Felmlee on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 07:04:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Define your terms (none / 0)

Bill,

thanks for your response.

Ok, great questions.  I have to run into a meeting at 3:00pm, and am already late.

But I will paste this link, an item that is often misinterpreted on MyDD.  That being said, I do not 100% agree with Will Marshall's take.  But I do agree with his final thoughts.

I was a Marine Hospital Corpsman, and then a commissioned Naval Officer.  So I have some emotional baggage when it concerns these matters.  I disclose this not to seek understanding, but to point out that I am not real flexible in differing opinions (which is a shame, I admit).

My sincere thanks to you for your service to our country! And this is all the more reason why I would like to hear your unfiltered views on these important questions in very clear terms.

I have only perused Marshall's long article. Will give it a more thorough read later (and perhaps draft a detailed response to it). From what I have read, he doesn't seem to adress the key question: should we have invaded Iraq? If so, on what grounds?.

One other critical flaw i see there is that of "selective magnification" which the GOP mastered over the years, namely, take a small section of the voices on the left, and paint them as the prevailing opinion of the entire group. For instance, how many leaders from the so-called "left wing" have called for immediate troop withdrawal? Very few, such as Rep. Kucinich, have called for it.

Looking forward to your direct responses.

best regards
Neo

CLICK to Draft Al Gore!
by NeoLiberal on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 08:20:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Define your terms (none / 0)

"...should we have invaded Iraq? If so, on what grounds?."

Yes, good point. (I do not know how to place past comments in Italics...sorry).

Also, I wrote the last comment so fast, that I wrote marine instead of navy (there is no such think as a marine corpsman, but navy corpsmen are assigned to medical duty with the Marines, as I have been).

To answer your questions, of course it was wrong.  We had no ground to stand on.  

I believe that no beltway politician who voted for the resolution is going to tell you the same, unless that politician has no presidential aspirations.  With 20+ Marines dying this week, it would be high grade amunition for republicans to use against any federally elected official who used the "m" (mistake) word in 2003 and beyond.  

And I admit to you that holding on to "the right decision at the time" excuse is substandard leadership on our part.  Yet, the Senators who want to run for President, who also voted for the resolution, are damned if they say "m", and damned if they do not.

As for my opinion, if I was out there in the sand at 120+ degree heat, no bath since early July, and eating semi-warm meals, then I would rather not hear of Washington D.C. politicians having a "moral flash" and changing their minds about why we went to war.  A flawed opinion, I admit.  But if you ever had sand blown in your mouth and the only thing available was hot water from your canteen, then perhaps you may agree that any negative news from the politicians who agreed to send you there would be very demoralizing.

       

by Bill Felmlee on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 09:09:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Define your terms (none / 0)

Bill, thanks for the forthrighness in your answers. Truly befitting of a serviceman!

But, one great example of a beltway polician that stands up for what he believes in, instead of caving into any pressures and ambition-driven considerations, is Sen. Russ Feingold. I wish more elected democrats had his strength of conviction. This probably explains why he is quite popular among the progressive netroots.

I enjoyed the discussion with you, and more of this type of dialogue will be helpful to the party. Perhaps we could talk again after I read up Marshall's article in detail?

Could I request one thing though? Could you please not "downrate" posts by Gary and others that are more vocally critical simply on the grounds that they disagree with you? Drawing them into healthy dialogue may prove to be ultimately more beneficial.

And more at the DLC level, I think that they should stop demonizing Michael Moore (and implicitly Howard Dean). Howard is my hero (and that of many) for his ideals, courage, conviction, AND for his forgiveness (remember how hard he worked to try and get Kerry elected, even after Kerry and others used quite unfair tactics such as that ad. with UBL in the background; I doubt if Kerry or Edwards would have helped Howard as much, if at all, had Dean won the nomination instead), and Moore also fights for what he believes in, and while he may be brash and in-you-face, with the exception of his possible (I am not too sure) opposition to the Afghan war, I don't see anything extreme or unreasonable about his views, and his and moveon.org's efforts were probably responsible for a few million new Kerry voters. We definitely don't want to lose those votes next time around, do we?

Anyways, thanks for the discussion.

regards
Neo

CLICK to Draft Al Gore!
by NeoLiberal on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 09:50:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Define your terms (none / 0)

Thanks for your reply, sorry I did not catch it earlier (this Diary has grown!).

Regarding your last paragraph, I can find much flexibility with what you believe.  But I do believe that Kerry would have helped Dean if Dean had become the nominee.  

I understand why Dean supporters feel that it is "them against the establishment."  But Washington politics works pretty funny, a little like a sorority house and a little like a large dysfunctional family with 4 boys, 4 girls, and three bedrooms to fight over (of course, one bath).  

I was not in favor of Governor Dean to become DNC Chair.  That being said, he is the Chair and I want him to succeed.  No, strike that: we need him to succeed.  So, will Governor Dean reach out to the Al Froms (DLC) and Joe Trippis (NPI) of the party, and will they reach out to Governor Dean?

In order to achieve success, will Markos, Jerome, Joe Trippi, Al From, etc. sit down at the same table with Governor Dean, and will Dean welcome them?  They have to, they must, and we need them to.  Nothing is more powerful than coordinated collaboration to pursuade this large and diverse democratic base.  If we can unite the party early, we will spend less time bickering and more time persuading independents and moderate republicans with positive, values-based, "stand up for what you believe in" candidates.

take care.

by Bill Felmlee on Sun Aug 07, 2005 at 03:22:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Define your terms (none / 0)

I was not in favor of Governor Dean to become DNC Chair.  That being said, he is the Chair and I want him to succeed.  No, strike that: we need him to succeed.  So, will Governor Dean reach out to the Al Froms (DLC) and Joe Trippis (NPI) of the party, and will they reach out to Governor Dean?

I don't know. I obviously can't be sure, but I do believe thet Gov. Dean will be glad to meet up and confer with anyone whose core values and goals are for the most part in the right place. I also think that in his capacity as the chair of the party, he will eat his own qualms/ego/past misgivings if he thinks that it will help the party. As for others, you'll have to ask them :) It is still a mystery to me as to what exactly conspired before and after Trippi'e resignation as Dean'04 campaign mgr.

Do you know if Gov. Dean was formally invited to the recent "DLC Conversation" (or convention) that you reported from?


In order to achieve success, will Markos, Jerome, Joe Trippi, Al From, etc. sit down at the same table with Governor Dean, and will Dean welcome them?  They have to, they must, and we need them to.  Nothing is more powerful than coordinated collaboration to pursuade this large and diverse democratic base.  If we can unite the party early, we will spend less time bickering and more time persuading independents and moderate republicans with positive, values-based, "stand up for what you believe in" candidates.

I couldn't agree with you more. And the sooner this happens, the better off will be the party.

Neo

CLICK to Draft Al Gore!
by NeoLiberal on Sun Aug 07, 2005 at 07:39:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Define your terms (none / 0)

Come on, Bill (Felmlee), I am waiting for your reply :)

Also, in case Sen. Bayh is reading, I respectfully request him to answer these questions from his own perspective. Perhaps as a well-drafted myDD diary?

thanks
Neo

CLICK to Draft Al Gore!
by NeoLiberal on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 07:07:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Define your terms (none / 0)

an example of what one could call "blog-lag": i was writing this comment while Bill had already replied to my parent comment.

Neo

CLICK to Draft Al Gore!
by NeoLiberal on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 08:24:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Define your terms (none / 0)

  1. See below

  2. Show me one DLC member who supports "unprovoked, unwarranted, unilateral warfare". And I know you consider Iraq to be qualify, but that's not the same thing. They don't believe the Iraq war constitutes what you say. Most of them believe they were duped into voting for it and that now we're stuck wiping Bush's ass for him and the Iraqis he victimized.

  3. Most moderates do not support the war in hindsight and even many republicans have said if they had known what they know today, they would not have voted for the war. Supporting a return to Iraqi stability and an exit strategy is NOT support for the war in 2003.

I'll ask you what I asked someone above who predictably did not want to answer: do you support an unconditional immediate withdrawal from Iraq, letting the chips fall where they may? If we do so, we can immediately end the casuaties and taxpayer expenses. Is this your position?
http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 08:08:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Define your terms (none / 0)

  1. See below
Pls see my resp to the same.

  2. Show me one DLC member who supports "unprovoked, unwarranted, unilateral warfare". And I know you consider Iraq to be qualify, but that's not the same thing. They don't believe the Iraq war constitutes what you say. Most of them believe they were duped into voting for it and that now we're stuck wiping Bush's ass for him and the Iraqis he victimized.

Yes, their publicly stated revised view of the Iraq war does box them as being for or against "unprovoked, unwarranted, unilateral warfare".

If they were "duped" into it, they can comeout and say that. The question then of course is, exactly how they were "duped": did the CIA director tell them that he is quite certain that Iraq had WMDs? If so, did they ask him to show the evidence behind his claim in confidence? I think that in reality, it was a combination  of getting "duped" and not having the backbone to standup to Bush that made them vote the way they. To the extent that the latter is the case, they should pay a political price for it, given the gravity of the consequences of their caving in. Don't you agree?


   3. Most moderates do not support the war in hindsight and even many republicans have said if they had known what they know today, they would not have voted for the war. Supporting a return to Iraqi stability and an exit strategy is NOT support for the war in 2003.

Then, they should at least comeout in the open and state that they will not support such adventures in the future.


I'll ask you what I asked someone above who predictably did not want to answer: do you support an unconditional immediate withdrawal from Iraq, letting the chips fall where they may? If we do so, we can immediately end the casuaties and taxpayer expenses. Is this your position?

I stated in my original comment this:
(Note that I am not talking about what we should do in Iraq, now that we are there. I am supporter of not leaving until longterm stability in Iraq is ensured)

Does it answer your question?

There is absolutely no way that we can drop the Iraq hot potato and run, because it will significantly undermine the ultimate objective of combatting terrorism. An unstable Iraq will be a disaster of much larger proportion down the road, and this is precisely what Howard Dean and many other progressives have said all along.

But the important point is for the original war supporters to first admit that Bush was wrong to go in there in the first place, and that they were wrong in supporting it, and then, they can talk about how best we can salvage the situation as it exists today in Iraq. In fact, had they come out this way a year or so ago (including Kerry, who was just pathetic in the way he performed a tango around this issue during the campaign, and in the end cameout saying yes to my question (3), stating that he would have authorized the freehand to Bush on Iraq anyway. If only there was a way to "recall "a nominee after he gets the nod :(), then may be Bush would have gone back to UN, admitting that he was wrong (I know I am day dreaming here :)) and then asking for the support of the world nations on the ground, instead of going there and saying something like "you'd better support us, or else..", as he did in address to the UN well after the war commenced.

All in all, what you are essentially saying is that these DLC-aligned leaders goofed, but they don't want to admit that openly. Fine then, why not comeout and openly declare that they are against waging such unilateral wars in the future? Until they do, they are unlikely to gain the true support of the progressive netroots/grassroots support (except for reluctantly supporting them after they win the nomination, as they did with Kerry).

Neo

CLICK to Draft Al Gore!
by NeoLiberal on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 09:07:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Define your terms (none / 0)

2. You will have to ask each of them how exactly they arrived at their conclusions to vote for the war. One thing that's important to remember, and that everyone is constantly forgetting, is the context of the time. I distinctly remember John Kerry's speech to the Senate before voting for giving the president the authority to use force against Saddam.

Kerry said that in giving his vote in favor of empowering the president, he understood that Bush would follow through with his promise to only move forward with war upon the final blessing of the UN. Bush, of course, reneged on this promise and decided not to hold a Security Council vote on war when it became clear that he would not be able to overcome opposition from members like Russia, China, and France. Rather than face defeat at the UN and go forward with a war that would be officially illegal (having been formally opposed by the world body), Bush decided to circumvent the UN completely using the "coalition of the willing" nonsense.

Kerry's position is very clear cut and dry to me. Empowering the president to apply pressure to Saddam was not a green light to send in the tanks. It was political leverage that Bush calculatingly took advantage of to circumvent the last efforts at diplomacy. Very easy to criticize this in hindsight, but in the environment of the time, it was a prudent move on Kerry's part.

Let's also not forget that Saddam at the time knew he did not have WMD but chose to communicate to us that he did, and he sorely miscalculated. Had he only capitulated and opened completely to the UN demands, he'd have disarmed Bush by removing all of his original reasons for regime change -- Saddam would still be in power today. Saddam's strategic blundering was the greatest gift to Bush's warmongering, not the Senate vote for authority to use force.

3. Given the logic of many of the original voters in favor of authority to use force (again, there's an important distinction between pro-war and pro-authority to use force) that I covered above, most of these people will not say "they were wrong in supporting it" because the knowledge they have today was not what they were working with when they had to cast the vote.  Many WILL say that had they known what they do today, they would not have even had the vote in the first place, let alone voted in favor. Even republicans often say this today.

Regarding your answer to my question, you would seem to be in support of stabilizing Iraq rather than immediate withdrawal, because regardless of how we got there, we are there now and Iraq is a mess because of it. That's the position of most moderates and according to latest polls, most Americans.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 09:57:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Define your terms (none / 0)

I have a couple of things to say here, but will do so later today or tomorrow.

thanks
Neo

CLICK to Draft Al Gore!
by NeoLiberal on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 10:05:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Define your terms (none / 0)

Supporting a return to Iraqi stability and an exit strategy is NOT support for the war in 2003.

A return to Iraq stability is a pipe dream. Iraq was stable because Saddam was a tyrant. Without a Stalinist tyrant Iraq will not "return to stability."

What is the difference between an exit strategy and this "unconditional immediate withdrawal from Iraq" that you keep braying about. Bush is not going to withdraw from Iraq regardless of what he says. Any withdrawal will not happen for at least three years, because it will require a new President in the White House. So you can drop the snide insinuations that anyone who does not agree with you favors appeasement to terrorism.

If we do so, we can immediately end the casuaties and taxpayer expenses. Is this your position?

My position is a demand that Bush produce an exit strategy immediately, not that we withdraw immediately. The problem with the DLC position is that it lets Bush off scott free for his mistakes, by not insisting that he produce some rational exit strategy, as required by the Powell Doctrine.

The key to electoral success is putting pressure on Bush, not attacking Howard Dean.

by Gary Boatwright on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 09:22:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Define your terms (none / 0)

Show me one DLC member who supports "unprovoked, unwarranted, unilateral warfare"

That would be every Democrat who voted to give Bush authority to invade Iraq. Damn near the whole party.

by Gary Boatwright on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 03:50:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Define your terms (3.00 / 1)

Quit thinking about "war on terror" according the Bush, and start thinking about it in terms of what it originally was: a response to 9/11.

The "war on terror" was, and still is, in Afghanistan where the Taliban harbored the perpetrators of the attacks in NY. Four years later and we still have not captured or killed the mastermind Osama. The war on terror is unfinished.

Bush and the neocons, the bungling idiots that they are, decided to spread the fire instead of containing it by embarking on a foolish worldwide crusade to nation-build and reform the world in their utopian image.

The goal was simple: find and destroy Osama, his network, and the Taliban. Secondary goal: restore the Afghan people to power over their country after it was hijacked by foreign radicals. Ultimate goal: prevent another 9/11 attack.

How to return to the original goals? Prevent Bush from starting anymore illegal wars and brainwashing the public with the help of the cowardly MSM. Stabilize Iraq and declare a comprehensive exit strategy to the American public. Redirect resources to homeland security measures -- defense at home is consistent with the war on terror goals.

Democrats need to quit surrendering the "war on terror" definition to Bush and take it for their own. Some Clintonian tactics would be useful here. The people want to see democrats take the initiative.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 07:59:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Define your terms (none / 0)

Very well written, and you will find that many progressives will agree with this statement. In fact, if you think about, this is precisely what Gov. Dean had been saying all along.

But, I don't read that DLC (through Will Marshall's voice) is defining this as their precise notion of "war on terror". Do you?

Neo

CLICK to Draft Al Gore!
by NeoLiberal on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 08:29:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Define your terms (none / 0)

Stabilize Iraq and declare a comprehensive exit strategy to the American public.

You cannot stablize Iraq with the military. The military breaks things and kills people. Breaking things and killing people will not stabilize Iraq. The military is not a very large Military Police Unit.

The opportunity to stabilize Iraq war lost about three months after "Mission Accomplished." The last, biggest mistake, among many, Bush made was dismissing the Iraq Army.

It is time for Democrats to tell the American people that Bush has already lost the Iraq war and announce their comprehensive exit strategy to the American public. I am sure the State Department and the Army War College and the Pentagon all have a number of viable exit plans. If we start pressuring Bush for a plan now, the Democratic party will have the momentum as the tide of public opinion continues to turn against Bush's war.

If the DLC warmongers continue to encourage Bush and the theocons by pretending a smarter more efficient plan can save Iraq, the earliest pull out date will be 2010. We could certainly pull our troops out in far less time, but a gradual reduction in force would probably be preferable.

Wishful thinking does not win wars. Pretending that the military can "stabilize" Iraq is not a strategy, it is wishful thinking.

by Gary Boatwright on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 12:59:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Define your terms (none / 0)

You cannot stablize Iraq with the military. The military breaks things and kills people. Breaking things and killing people will not stabilize Iraq. The military is not a very large Military Police Unit.

Politics will stabilize Iraq. A viable political system will not be restored without military force protecting it. That's why sovereign nations have armed forces -- not just to protect from outside threats but also domestic ones.

Perhaps you've been missed all the suicide bombings in Iraq by the insurgents. Suicide bombs break things and kill people. Do you really think that if the US exits before the new Iraqi government can maintain order and defend itself that the Sunnis (removed from power under Saddam) and the foreign fighters (seeking to destabilize Iraq and cultivate the country as the new frontlines against the West), would simply lay down their arms? The US presence is the only thing keeping the seams of civil war from bursting open.

You still haven't presented your plan and alternative for fixing the Iraq mess. Admit we lost the war already you say...that's not a policy. Bush's idea of an exit plan doesn't include admitting defeat and withdrawing in case you've noticed -- he probably intends on keeping forward bases in Iraq and eventually drawing down troops in order to squeeze in one last invasion, say...Iran? Syria? Also, democrats have been "pressuring" Bush for a couple years now about Iraq needing a new plan. As long as they don't have any hall of power whatsoever, I don't think Bush really gives a rat's ass, especially now that he's locked in to 2008. And as for the Pentagon...everyone knows that you don't give alternatives to Bush -- that gets you fired.

Meanwhile, the Sunni insurgents and the foreign fighters are not the negotiating types. The political process is the only thing that can save Iraq from fragmenting and that's not going to have a chance without military protection to cultivate.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 02:32:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Define your terms (none / 0)

We are currently taking sides in a religious civil war with the Shiites against the Sunnis. That will not lead to a stable political solution. It appears that we are encouraging a Shiite theocracy that will be on friendlly terms with Iran. Instead of being a counter-weight to Iranian power in the Middle East, we are creating a theocratic power center that will dominate the Middle East.

Democrats have been "pressuring" Bush for a new plan to stay in Iraq. That is not the same thing. Democrats need to start pressuring Bush for an exit strategy. The pressure for an exit strategy is what will win Independent voters. Pressure for a plan to "stay the course" will only feed into the theocon narrative.

Iraq is going to fragment regardless of what America does or doesn't do. Bush has already guaranteed that. There is no way to put Humpty Dumpty back together again. DLC Democrats want to make the same mistake Nixon made when he turned LBJ's war into Nixon's war.

by Gary Boatwright on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 03:48:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clark's message was Kerry's message in 2004 (none / 0)

NOT!

Kerry voted for the IWR, remember?  Kerry threw his medals, remember?  By the time Kerry started taking Clark's advice, it was too late.  

by ICantBelieve on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 02:06:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

One Question for Sen. Bayh (3.00 / 2)

What is your military objective in Iraq?

All of the DLC warmongers are trying to parrot Bush's tough talk, but they have the same problem Bush and the theocons have. What is your military objective?

Staying the course is not a military objective. Talking tough is not a military objective. Unless the military has an identifiable objective there is no reason for them to be in Iraq. The Democratic party should be reminding the American people that Bush's war fails the The Powell Doctrine on all counts:

Is a vital US interest at stake?  No.

Will we commit sufficient resources to win?  No.

Are the objectives clearly defined?  No.

Will we sustain the commitment?  No.

Is there reasonable expectation that the public and Congress will support the operation?  No.

Have we exhausted our other options?  No.

A war without a military objective is just a well organized massacre of innocent civilians. Iraq is not a war. It is a war crime.

I've got one more question for the DLC presidential wannabes. Why do Democrats want to try and out chickenhawk the theocons?

I'm looking forward to Clark's visit to TPM Cafe later this month. His answers to questions about Iraq have only been a partial improvement on the rest of the field.

Gen. Zinni has been a consistent and harsh critic of Bush's war from its inception. Here's a Counterpunch article last year and a more detailed speech about the same time at the Center for Defense Information, Ten Mistakes Bush Made In Iraq.

by Gary Boatwright on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 05:32:48 AM EST

All questions, no solutions. (none / 0)

You are stuck in the past. Damn near everyone agrees the war was a mistake. You're preaching the same old argument to the choir. We're in Iraq NOW and it's a goddamn mess. So what do you propose we do about it?

It's so easy to take the moral high road without proposing any alternatives.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 08:11:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The solution is an admission of defeat (none / 0)

Bush has already lost the Iraq war. The military is crumbling. It's time to plan a rational exit strategy before America is compelled to bug out like we did in Vietnam.

The onus to produce a military objective is on those who would "stay the course" or claim "we have to win."

by Gary Boatwright on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 09:40:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The solution is an admission of defeat (none / 0)

Yes, but WHAT is the exit strategy exactly? It is so intellectually lazy to simply sit back and basically say: "Your plan sucks. When you come up with a better plan that doesn't suck so much, let me know."

So you say we already lost, and we lost because of these idiots running the war, and your answer is for THEM to come up with a better plan?

This is prime example of why the public still thinks republicans are the best at national security matters. They have plans and the democrats have none. Brilliant.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 10:08:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The solution is an admission of defeat (none / 0)

An exit strategy is not difficult. You set a two year time table and stick to it. Bush is using a variation of that to compel both sides to the table for serious negotiations on the Iraqi Constitution.

Where on earth did you get the idea that I wanted Bush and the theocons to come up with a better plan? You really should see your psychiatrist about adjusting your medication.

I want Democrats to propose a two year exit plan. That is the path to the Democratic nomination and a Democratic victory in 2008. If you think the public believes Republicans are the best at national security matters you have not been paying attention to the polls. Bush is getting terrible ratings on Iraq. The only reason his ratings on the Global War on Whatever are high is because Democrats have not pointed out that Bush does not have a strategy to fight religious radical Muslims besides the Iraq war.

What's brilliant is sensing the mood of the country and getting out in front of the parade instead of waiting for it to pass by and then scramble to get out in front. Why do want Democrats to follow Bush on his most unpopular issue?

Breaking News! Some of Bush's lowest poll ratings are for the war in Iraq.

by Gary Boatwright on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 04:02:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: One Question for Sen. Bayh (none / 0)

Clark laid it all out in his book.  He's laid it all out all along.  
by ICantBelieve on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 10:53:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Bayh is not entirely off-base (3.00 / 0)

While I never like it when so-called centrist Democrats give in to GOP talking points, I don't think Bayh has gone that far this time. Regarding his first paragraph, he is dead on. Many people, largely deluded by right-wing propaganda, think "we don't have the backbone." Not too much to disagree with.

On his second point, about "voices out on the fringe" who end up "defining the entire party," what is so outlandish about that? There ARE voices out there on the fringe - you cite Michael Moore - and the GOP uses them to define the entire Democratic Party. The problem is that even though 99.5% of Democrats supported the Afghan war and nearly all Democrats agree with Bayh's earlier point about using force when necessary, the voices of a few prominent extreme anti-war figures often stand in for the Democratic Party message. Now I know that Moore supported Nader in 2000 but he was a very visible Kerry supporter in 2004 (after the primaries where he supported Clark). He was a perfect guy for the Democratic candidate to give the Sistah Souljah treatment to. Say straight up, to his face, and in public, that [I] have more faith in American military and foreign policy than Moore, and that the Democratic Party believes in a forceful, constructive leadership role on the world stage, not a surrender into isolationism and the abrogation of our nation's founding principles, or wading into bizarre conspiracy theories. Openly chastising Moore in that way wouldn't cost a Democrat the anti-war vote but it would reassure people in the middle who have swallowed up so much GOP propaganda about the Democrats as captive to the ultra-pacifist camp. Democrats cannot simply ignore people like Moore. The right wing will make damn sure people hear all about Moore (just as we, rightly, make damn sure everybody hears Dobson's latest outrage). They have to openly distance themselves from him if they are going to win.

So Bayh is right. The Democrats need to stop letting fringe figures define the whole party. They need assert their own strengths - belief in diplomacy, a stronger military, real encouragement of democracy - even in regimes that are "friendly", more respect for our allies, willingness to use force to succeed at all costs as long as the cause is just - and define the Republican weaknesses - ideological blindness, incompetent stewardship of post-war Iraq, unnecessary bellicosity with trusted allies, coddling pro-American dictators like Musharraf and Karimov, short-handing the military. Maybe Hillary Clinton can do it. Maybe Clark can. But Kerry did not. His position on Iraq was unclear and, as Dean pointed out correctly during the primaries, politically driven. We don't need to be all-out pro-war or all-out anti-war. But we do need to be something, and we need to make clear what we are not, just as much as we need to make clear what we are.

by elrod on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 05:42:18 AM EST

Re: Bayh is entirely off-base (2.00 / 0)

Is Michael Moore more extreme than Richard Perle or Sen. Santorum?

[I] have more faith in American military and foreign policy than Moore, and that the Democratic Party believes in a forceful, constructive leadership role on the world stage, not a surrender into isolationism and the abrogation of our nation's founding principles, or wading into bizarre conspiracy theories.

Nice GOP talking points.

The Democrats need to stop letting fringe figures define the whole party.

Is Gen. Zinni a fringe figure?

Maybe Hillary Clinton can do it

The American people will never elect a woman as commander in chief during wartime.

Unless you can articulate a clearly identifiable military objective, Iraq is a war crime, not a war. Why are Democrats in such a big hurry to become war criminals?

by Gary Boatwright on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 06:30:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bayh is entirely off-base (3.00 / 0)

Are you kidding? Zinni's remarks make perfect sense, and they are nothing like Moore's. Just because somebody doesn't buy Michael Moore's Bush-Bin Laden conspiracy theory doesn't mean they are spouting GOP talking points.
by elrod on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 01:39:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bayh is entirely off-base (3.00 / 1)

Michael Moore's Bush-Bin Laden conspiracy theory

Um, pointing out the ties between the Bushies and the Saudis is not a "conspiracy theory."

Pointing out that oil is center to the problems that we're in, and that perhaps an OIL MAN in office is not the person to solve our problems is not a "conspiracy theory."

Associating Michael Moore and a "conspiracy theory" certainly IS a GOP Talking Point.

by cscs on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 02:26:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bayh is entirely off-base (2.00 / 1)

Um, pointing out the ties between the Bushies and the Saudis is not a "conspiracy theory."

Then I encourage your candidates to run with that message on their platform. Stand by your conviction is all I ask. If you believe in something, declare it loudly and proudly to all.

Of course, Markos apparently doesn't find such theories endearing, judgeing by his purging of conspiracists from DailyKos.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 08:28:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bayh is entirely off-base (none / 0)

Markos? Now what in the hell are you talking about? Judging by your spewing of right wing conspiracist theories you should try purging Ken Mehlman's ass from the end of your nose.
by Gary Boatwright on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 09:37:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bayh is entirely off-base (none / 0)

That is quite simply the most retarded thing you have written yet. Glad to see you are reaching for new lows.
http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 07:04:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bayh is entirely off-base (none / 0)

You haven't seen new lows yet. I'm just getting started sweetcheeks.
by Gary Boatwright on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 10:24:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bayh is entirely off-base (none / 0)

Finally something I can agree with.
http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sun Aug 07, 2005 at 03:45:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bayh is entirely off-base (3.00 / 0)

The American people will never elect a woman as commander in chief during wartime.

Oh my, the same Gary who is so adamant about affirmative action and the plight of blacks in our society appears to be a pre-1990's cheuvenist.

Isn't it ironic that Islamic fundamentalist nations such as Pakistan (Benazir Bhutto) and Bangladesh (Khaleda Zia) have had women presidents/PMs, not to mention many nations we regard as developing and third-world? Meanwhile the "advanced" first-world nations such as USA, Germany, Russia, and Japan, have not?

Gary shows we're not as progressive a society as we often think we are.

Women presidents: http://www.terra.es/personal2/monolith/00women2.htm
Women PMs: http://www.terra.es/personal2/monolith/00women3.htm

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 08:24:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I apologize for being pragmatic (none / 0)

The truth is the truth. Regardless of what polls show, the American people are not going to elect a woman to be President and CinC during a time of war.

How many states is Hillary going to win that Kerry lost? She's going to have to make up a lot of ground to convince Independents that a woman is capable of commanding the military and giving orders to the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

by Gary Boatwright on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 09:42:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I apologize for being pragmatic (none / 0)

I'm not so sure about that.

I think that Senator Clinton can carry every state that Kerry won.  I also think that she has a realistic shot at taking NM and IA.

I think she has a slim, painful up-hill shot at CO, VA, and OH.  But it could be done.

She is mastering the key to win:  persistent retail politics.  Senator Clinton just does not give up.  And the staff and resources she has at her disposal -- enormous.  

You may be right: there might well be a quiet, underground and nonspoken movement of the fear that a woman President will hurt a country fighting terrorism.  However, her persistence my carry the day.

by Bill Felmlee on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 09:58:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I apologize for being pragmatic (none / 0)

That's not very good odds.  We need to be able to fight in all 50 states.  With HRC, we will have to write off the entire South and nearly all the midwest.  You think maybe we could pick up IA and NM?  I think we could lose WI, NH, MI, and maybe PA and MD.  
by ICantBelieve on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 02:26:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I apologize for being pragmatic (none / 0)

That's exactly my point. You can speculate about Hillary maybe picking up an additional state or two, but there is no guarantee she will win every state Kerry won either and a good chance she would lose some. Hillary does not add any electoral strength to the Kerry campaign strategy. Her presidential ambitions are running on name ID and fumes of the ghost of Clinton elections past.

Hillary does not have Bill's talent for triangulation. It was a flawed strategy from the get go and requires more political dexterity than the DLC or Hillary can muster. Major Hackett demonstrated that fighting Democrats who oppose Bush is what voters of both parties are looking for.

by Gary Boatwright on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 09:43:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I apologize for being pragmatic (none / 0)

Uh, no. Hackett demonstrated what conservative voters are looking for in a candidate is one with strong military credentials that allay their fears of weakness on national security issues.

Take his veteran status away and he would have been routed by 30 points.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 07:08:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I apologize for being pragmatic (none / 0)

Making shit up is a standard troll technique. Nobody knows how Hackett would or wouldn't have done if he had not been an Iraq vet. The vast majority of rational commentators credit Hackett's fighting spirit and bold challenge to GOP orthodoxy.
by Gary Boatwright on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 10:27:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I apologize for being pragmatic (none / 0)

Frankly, I don't think conservative voters voted for Hackett.  Hackett did well by getting out the vote of the Democrats.  He also picked up some moderates.  No "conservatives" voted for him, however.  And I think most of the moderates who voted for him were actually voting AGAINST Schmidt.  Of course, if Kerry had had Hackett's personality, those people would have voted against Bush as well.  

Hackett's military background helped.  But that doesn't mean he HAD to have it.  It's part of his package.  He's a good "package."  If he hadn't had that, he would have had to have emphasized something else.  But, really, it's a big part of him.  And not just that he was a veteran of the war.  The guy dropped everything and re-upped because his Marine buddies needed him.  That speaks volumes.  It's a subtle but very important difference.  

by ICantBelieve on Sun Aug 07, 2005 at 01:47:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I apologize for being pragmatic (none / 0)

Uh, conservative voters didn't vote for Hackett in a heavily red district? Get real! And to deny Hackett's military background wasn't his greatest asset is a failure to admit the obvious. Hackett would have gotten no coverage in the press had he been a regular walmart worker like Gary.
http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sun Aug 07, 2005 at 03:49:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I apologize for being pragmatic (none / 0)

Look at the stats.  Then get back to me.
by ICantBelieve on Sun Aug 07, 2005 at 01:21:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I apologize for being pragmatic (none / 0)

Link?
http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 12:44:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I apologize for being pragmatic (none / 0)

I've posted stats about that race all over this site.  Here's one location:  http://www.mydd.com/poll/1123039195_JVFhHnsU

The tactics in this race were not to go after conservatives.  We consistently called Kerry voters.  We went to the houses of Kerry voters. Granted, I got there late, so most persuasion calls would have already been done, but we never switched from the original Kerry lists.  The whole idea was to get out the vote of the people who voted for Kerry.

Mostly what Hackett had going for him was that the Republicans stayed home because Jean Schmdit is such an unappealing person.

by ICantBelieve on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 01:51:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I apologize for being pragmatic (none / 0)

Nothing new here. Just more ridiculous babbling from Gary. A sure sign that again I am correct.
http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sun Aug 07, 2005 at 03:48:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I apologize for being pragmatic (none / 0)

The British did it with Thatcher, I think we can too. Women have made enormous gains in social and economic status since 1990 and they consist of 52% of the voting public. Men have also progressed greatly in accepting women in these increasingly more powerful roles.

Your argument is the same that was heard about blacks in public office following the civil rights movement. I bet you that a woman is more likely to become president in this country than a person of color, more indication of how much more progress we need to make as a society.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 10:17:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Thatcher? Thatcher? (none / 0)

First of all you give American men far too much credit for enlightenment. Second of all, that says nothing of the willingness of either men or women to accept a woman as CinC during a war.

Colin Powell would be far more acceptable to the American people, male and female, as President and CinC than a woman. Your analysis is fatally flawed. It is a loss to the American people that Powell chose to through his lot in with Bush and the theocons. Now he is an unacceptable choice to both parties.

by Gary Boatwright on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 09:49:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thatcher? Thatcher? (none / 0)

Unless you can show precedent where a woman ran on the front of a ticket for one of the two major parties during a time of war, your theories are groundless.

Ha! Colin Powell. Yeah right. The reason why he did not run in 2000 when he most assuredly would have won, is because he'd probably have been assassinated. Which is primarily the reason why his wife did not support his possible candidacy.

This country is full of more racist bigots than sexists. And while the nation is 18% black, the nation is 52% woman.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 07:14:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thatcher? Thatcher? (none / 0)

You not only speak for Markos, now you have keen insights on Powell family dynamics. Do you speak regularly with Markos and Powell or are you just making more shit up?

Don't bother to answer. That was a rhetorical question. The answer is obvious.

by Gary Boatwright on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 10:29:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thatcher? Thatcher? (none / 0)

No precedents? Good. Because there aren't any. Just surrender now Gary, you are no match for my superior intellect. I set you up every time; you're making it too easy.
http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sun Aug 07, 2005 at 03:53:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Bayh hides the truth (none / 0)

by giving GOP cover for their incompetence on the security issue.

We need to take back the house then we could hold hearings.  The real story about treasongate is when did President find out about it.  Was he part of the plan to out Plame?  

The reason Bush won the election was the security issue.  No 911, Bush loses in a landslide.  The country voted him back in office to protect the country.  Now we find out that he puts party loyalty ahead of the nation's security.  

Why did they out Plame?  Was it to punish Joe Wilson?  Yes, but that is just the tip of the iceberg.  Why was Rove so worry about Wilson's report?  I think they were worry that his report could convince the nation that the need to war with Iraq did not exist. In fact anyone of importance who could have convinced the nation that the war was unnecessary was smeared.  

If Bush was worried about the nation's security, why was he worried about evidence that Iraq was not a threat to the United States reaching the public?  Because the war with Iraq was never about threats to the nation or the war on terrorism.  It was about something else. Maybe greed.

If we take the house back, the hearings could prove that the GOP puts party loyalty above the nation's security. That would break the perceived advantage the GOP has held on the security issue forever.

.

Gandhi - "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."
by HCLiberal on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 05:47:38 AM EST

Generals are hiding the truth (3.00 / 1)

Gen. Casey is the most recent example of a General who has put love of his stars above military duty and above love of country. Gen. Franks is another one. You can go right down the list of every four star who has not condemned Bush's war and they are guilty of dereliction of duty.
by Gary Boatwright on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 06:32:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Ouch (3.00 / 0)

Let's not attack the generals.  The generals of this war have done a good job of remaining apolitical.  Especially when you compare them to someone like Doug McArthur.

The generals aren't going to poison their own waters by making some anti-war comment.  These guys owe it to their soldiers to remain as positive as possible without undermining realism in operations.

And it has always been American tradition that no matter how dumb or ineffective an on-going war is, that retired officers don't condemn the war either.

The generals have said their bit in private many times pushing for more troops or a withdrawl.  However, it is against the code of military conduct for them to question their commander-in-chief.  The enjtire military depends on the ability to follow orders.

Don't put this bullshit on the generals.  They're just doing their job, as they did for Clinton even though many privately questioned the wisdom of getting involved in Bosnia and Kosovo.

Our nation depends on them being able to do that.

by jcjcjc on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 02:14:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ouch (3.00 / 1)

I disagree with respect to Franks. He not only campaigned for Bush, but wrote a Times op/ed saying Kerry was wrong about Tora Bora.

Fact is, Kerry was right.

Franks is either uninformed, or a liar.

Either way, he's not above criticism for his role in the election.

by cscs on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 02:29:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ouch (none / 0)

Franks did politicize himself shockingly much.

It bodes poorly for the Democratic Party that the left has no smear machine capable of questioning a general who went to school with the president's wife, and then let bin Laden and al-Qaeda slip away virtually unscathed.

Also, I will add that Franks for quite a while tried to stay above the fray.  However, the Bush family has a knack for pulling fence sitters onto their side.

Daddy Bush's people are absolutely mafia-like in their ability to call in debts.  Look at the entire Jim Baker III network.

I am of the opinion that this is what happened with Franks.  Because early on he seemed very reserved about weighing into the election fight.

But, I can't even imagine the shit these guys do to people to make them budge.

by jcjcjc on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 02:02:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ouch (none / 0)

Our nation depends on Generals who have the backbone to speak truth to power. Especially when the national security of American and the lives of American soldiers are on the line. A whole line of four stars are guilty of dereliction of duty for their failure to back Gen. Shinseki instead of protecting their stars.

Love of country must take precedence over love of medals. There are a lot of Generals who forgot that.

by Gary Boatwright on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 11:26:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ouch (none / 0)

Considering you so apparently have never worn your country's uniform, you have zero credibility on matters of military duty. You can't begin to understand what you're talking about.
http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 07:16:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ouch (none / 0)

I guess that's why you have so much respect for the Swiftboat Liars for Bush. I don't need to hide behind a uniform to have credibility and I don't need the approval of trolls. Your failure to comprehend is based on your low troll IQ. Remedial help is available.
by Gary Boatwright on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 11:09:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ouch (none / 0)

I supported the Swift Boaters? You have 12 hours to back that up with a link anywhere or I will troll rate your false accusation for "mischaracterization", as you did previously.

I was telling the truth that you have no military service. Don't lie about me just because you're ashamed of that.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sun Aug 07, 2005 at 03:58:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

What kind of logic is that. (2.00 / 2)

The Nazis are winning all the elections, so maybe we need to get a little more fascistic so we can win some elections.  Well, what is the f****g point then?

by steve expat on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 05:55:26 AM EST

Re: What kind of logic is that. (none / 0)

We should not forget that Bayh voted for MBNA Biden's bankruptcy bill. That disqualifies him for the nomination right there.
by Gary Boatwright on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 06:19:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What kind of logic is that. (3.00 / 1)

new rule.

No comparing anything to the Nazis.  For three resons.

  1. It really isn't comparable.  Come back when someone has killed 12 million people in concentration camps and another 20+ million people due to war.

  2. It's just not that creative.  "Oooo!  Something's bad!  Let's compare it to the Nazis!"  Come on, you can do better than that.

  3. You're just setting yourself up for someone to be offended.  It just isn't necessary.

by tplants on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 01:53:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What kind of logic is that. (1.00 / 0)

Communism is domination of business by government.

Fascism is domination of government by business.

George Bush and the Republican party are fascists.

Accurately describing someone as a fascist is not wrong. Being a fascist is wrong.

Germany had a democratic form of government when Hitler was elected. Hitler took many of the same steps to destroy democracy in Germany that George Bush and the Republican party has taken.

As Digby pointed out, Senator Byrd accurately compared the tactics the Bush administration has used to transform our government with Hitler:

Which brings us to Byrd:

But witness how men with motives and a majority can manipulate law to cruel and unjust ends. Historian Alan Bullock writes that Hitler's dictatorship rested on the constitutional foundation of a single law, the Enabling Law. Hitler needed a two-thirds vote to pass that law, and he cajoled his opposition in the Reichstag to support it. Bullock writes that "Hitler was prepared to promise anything to get his bill through, with the appearances of legality preserved intact." And he succeeded.

"Hitler's originality lay in his realization that effective revolutions, in modern conditions, are carried out with, and not against, the power of the State: the correct order of events was first to secure access to that power and then begin his revolution. Hitler never abandoned the cloak of legality; he recognized the enormous psychological value of having the law on his side. Instead, he turned the law inside out and made illegality legal."

And that is what the nuclear option seeks to do to Rule XXII of the Standing Rules of the Senate.

It would be nice if Americans understood that Compassionate Fascism is still fascims. George Bush and Hitler have a lot in common. Hitler also used religious symbols to further the destruction of democracy in German.

by Gary Boatwright on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 02:17:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What kind of logic is that. (3.00 / 0)

Actually, "fascism" is roughly synonymous with "dictatorship."

That George Bush is using democratic means to establish himself in a dictatorship is, at best, a wild leap of logic.

We can, however, discuss the matter without making a single reference to Hitler or the Nazis.  Again, come back and talk to me when someone orders the murder of 12 million people in concentration camps as a warm up act to the most destructive war ever.

Further, that Evan Bayh used the wrong talking points in discussing national security is not at all a symptom of fascism.  And it certainly isn't comparable to the acts of Hitler and the Nazis as the original poster claimed.

When you make those kinds of wild accusations about such relatively small potatoes issues, you make it very, very easy for our opponents to label us as...well...fringe.

by tplants on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 02:48:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Evan Bayh is a Good American (none / 0)


He is also A Good German. There is no muddle of the road position in the political war against Bush's Compassionate Fascism. Killing 12 million Jews is not a requirement for being a fascist.

The Patriot Act is a vehicle towards fascism. Joe MBNA Biden's Bankruptcy Bill was a vehicle towards fascism. It may already be too late to stop the military/Congressional/Industrial Complex from completely taking over America. Any Democrat who does not oppose Bush's fascist plans for America is a Good German:

Germans at the time thought:

  • I didn't vote for him

  • most people don't support him

  • I engaged in some forms of protest

  • although the forms of protest I engaged in were mocked and derided by the government and by those in the media, I did everything I could do and I sure felt good about myself as I protested

  • if it weren't for the fact that the government would arrest and possibly kill me, I would have done more

  • I didn't see anything directly, so I wasn't sure of how bad it actually was

  • people in positions of high authority convinced me that whatever they were doing was for the best

  • I live in a civilized, democratic country, certainly the most civilized and democratic that has ever been, and my country wouldn't do evil things

  • these people were going to destroy our country, so what we had to do was just self-defense

  • why do you blame us when we're the victims?

  • there are many people in my country who support our government with a radical fervor, many of them my neighbors and relatives, and I want to get along with them or I fear their reaction should I dare to express dissent

  • anyone who expresses the least amount of dissent faces the general hatred of the public

  • anyone who expresses the least amount of dissent may lose his or her job or livelihood

  • anything I might have done wouldn't have made any difference

  • the people who are doing the work of the government are 'our troops', and must be supported in whatever they have to do on our behalf

  • the alleged victims of my government aren't fully human, and their lives aren't worth even the slightest inconvenience or risk to our lives

  • the alleged victims of my government have a false and evil religion, and my true religion gives me the right to eliminate them

  • after the sufferings we've faced, no one can dare tell us what to do

  • what my country is doing is actually for the improvement of the lives of what busybodies describe as its 'victims'

  • my country right or wrong (no, sorry, that is someone else - the Germans weren't that stupid)

  • our leaders are particularly blessed and wise, with a direct line to God, and would never do the wrong thing.

Can Americans today see the similarities between Hitler's Germany and Bush's America? Of course, the Germans said that they couldn't have known the evil that the Third Reich was capable of. It is perhaps unfair to say that every American who isn't doing everything possible now to stop the insanity is personally morally responsible for the death of every Iraqi. However, there is an immoral crime of the highest order being committed in America, and somebody is morally responsible. History teaches us lessons if we care to learn them.

The DLC is chock full of Good Germans who lack the backbone to speak truth to power and truth to the American people. Pandering to GOP talking points is pandering to fascism.

by Gary Boatwright on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 04:08:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Fascism was an identifiable political movement (none / 0)

Only someone who had exactly zero understanding of pre-WWI European, British, or for that matter American history could possibly make the ludicrous statement "Actually, "fascism" is roughly synonymous with "dictatorship."

Fascism was a movement that advocating coordinating the forces of nationalism, religion and business behind the goal of allowing a Great Man to pursue an aggressive foreign policy in the name of the Nation.

I am not a big fan of Wikipedia generally, but I just skimmed their article and it is not bad as an intro for someone that knows absolutely nothing about the history of fascism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

by Bruce Webb on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 04:47:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I meant WWII (none / 0)

But Italian fascism has its roots back in the 1870's
by Bruce Webb on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 04:50:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Fascism was an identifiable political movement (none / 0)

We have to start with baby steps before we can teach the DLC to walk. That's why I broke it down to its lowest common denominator. Fascism is business domination of government. The DLC is leaning towards fascism when they pass bills like bankruptcy restrictions, class action law suit restrictions and the latest gun bill. Corporate America and the Military-Congressional-Industrial Complex may have already conquered America. The DLC is formally a captive interest group of corporate America.
by Gary Boatwright on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 05:50:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What kind of logic is that. (1.00 / 1)

How compassionate and sensitive of you Gary. To trivialize the historically incomparable genocide of several million Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, and others deemed unworthy to breathe the air of the aryan supremecists. All by comparing the holocaust to republicans.

Now I know all your emotional posturing about the plight of blacks was...what was that word you like so much? Ah yes, "horse shit".

Please seek professional help.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 08:37:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What kind of logic is that. (none / 0)

That is a personal attack, completely lacking in substance and an intentional gross manipulation of my comment. Have a 1 VoteHillarious2008.
by Gary Boatwright on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 09:37:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What kind of logic is that. (none / 0)

Actually, that's an accurate characterization of your position.

A personal attack? Your hypocrisy knows no bounds! Perhaps I should revisit every one of the dozen posts or so where you use childish and profane personal insults as responses to my posts?

I guess I'll hold you to the same measure.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 10:20:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What kind of logic is that. (none / 0)

I'm just getting warmed up with you VoteHillarious. I've been cautioning you for two days that I was cutting you some slack. You want a damn flame war with me you got it. You can hold me to any measure your teeny little heart and your teeny little brain desires. You are now officially dog meat.
by Gary Boatwright on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 10:39:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What kind of logic is that. (none / 0)

Actually, you've become far more docile lately, a result of my superior wit and intellect no doubt. Even your normal rambling and insults have become more benign.

Chalk another one up for VH08!

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 07:19:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What kind of logic is that. (none / 0)

Ahh. Another genius! You hide your intellectual prowress quite well. Maybe you forgot to bring it with you. Have you checked your backpack? Maybe it's hiding in there.
by Gary Boatwright on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 10:49:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What kind of logic is that. (none / 0)

Bwahaha! That's a weak comeback.
http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sun Aug 07, 2005 at 04:00:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What kind of logic is that. (none / 0)

You'll be happy to know I have revisted the DCCC thread and made certain to appropriately rate every personal attack and profane insult you directed at me in lieu of actual debate.

You'll be happier to note that I ignored all the personal attacks and profane insults you direct at everyone else.

If you can't debate me on the issues like a mature adult, don't bother commenting. Simple as that.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 10:37:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What kind of logic is that. (none / 0)

That's pretty grandiose claiming to be a mature adult. You don't have the capacity to debate or discuss any issue without building strawmen arguments. Simple as that.
by Gary Boatwright on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 04:10:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

That's not a new rule at all (none / 0)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law
by Geotpf on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 05:07:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I second the "No Nazis" approach (3.00 / 0)

The Nazis, used as a perjorative against another person's views, should not be invoked unless there is a valid basis for it.

Bayh never said anything about the Nazis.

It's wrong to bring it up.

by jcjcjc on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 02:03:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Supporting an immoral war is wrong (2.00 / 0)

The road to fascism is paved with good intentions.
by Gary Boatwright on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 02:18:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Supporting an immoral war is wrong (1.00 / 0)

And the road to losing all the elections of the foreseeable future is paved with Gary's wingnuttery.
http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 08:43:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Personal attack, no substance (none / 0)


by Gary Boatwright on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 09:49:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Personal attack, no substance (1.00 / 1)

Can't handle the heat Mr. Hypocrite? That's ok, I have plenty of 3's to take care of your ratings abuse.

But do watch the personal attacks in the future Gary, we're playing by your rules now.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 10:42:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Personal attack, no substance (none / 0)

Nope. They are your rules. I told you I was cutting you some slack. Now it's my turn.
by Gary Boatwright on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 04:11:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I don't judge the morality of war (none / 0)

Because that's just another fool's errand that leads to yet another invocation of Nazis as people try to offer up WWII as the ideal, model, moral war.
by jcjcjc on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 02:12:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Perhaps (3.00 / 0)

I talked to many of my old blue collar type friends and their families during the run up to the election and their main reason for voting for Bush was that "we shouldn't change leaders during a war." These folks are not very issue-oriented and don't have much knowledge or interest in complex issues. They judged Bush to "have balls" because he stuck up for what he believed and this meant more to them than if they agreed with his policies. On the other hand, they disliked Kerry because he was seen as an equivocator afraid to state his real opinion and thus "lacking balls."

It's really not about issues so much with many of this demographic -- it's about whether or not a candidate has "starch" as Wes Clark said the other day.

Visit my blog Democracy for New Mexico
by barbwire on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 06:17:42 AM EST

Starch? (none / 0)

We have to stay in Iraq so Democrats can prove they have starch? How about educating them about the difference between just and unjust wars? How about talking truth to power and truth to the American people?

We don't need a canddate with starch. We need a candidate with enough backbone to tell the American people that their sons and  daughters have died for nothing.

by Gary Boatwright on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 06:34:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Russ doesn't make my heart go pitter-pat (none / 0)

At least not yet. But he is the only semi-declared elected to have openly opposed the war before it started.

Why I Oppose Bush's Iraq War Resolution by Sen. Russ Feingold October 11, 2002

And he is reaching out to the netroots. As is Clark. I think I could get behind either. Who else out there is looking to jump in that has a pro-military, anti-war approach?

by Bruce Webb on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 09:20:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Clark's position is still vague (3.00 / 2)

He's saying some of the right words, but I'm still not certain exactly what his position is. I'm looking forward to his blogging exercise at TPM Cafe later this month. As far as I'm concerned Clark and Feingold are the only two Democratic likelies with any credibility on Iraq.

Trying to outwarmonger the GOPERS is a losing proposition in a Democratic primary. Trying to argue that Bush should have done it better is a losing proposition in a Democratic primary. We all know about the mistakes Bush made. That's history. Stay the course is a dodge, not a solution.

In addition to a military objective, any Democratic nominee needs to address the question of an exit strategy. It may already be a moot point. I do not believe for a second that Bush is planning troop withdrawals or an exit strategy. Events on the ground could compel a bugout identical to Vietnam whether the theocons want to withdraw or not. The military will not allow the destruction of the American military to continue ad infinitum. At some point in the near future, active duty four stars will start to demand an exit strategy in public. I suspect they already have in private.

by Gary Boatwright on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 01:34:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Russ doesn't make my heart go pitter-pat (3.00 / 1)

Clearly you don't live in Wisconsin. :)

He makes my heart go pitter pat. He's a liberal, there is no question about it. But he appeals to the "swing" voters because he has the most integrity of any politician in Washington.

He's not some fat cat or corporate lawyer, he's not from a wealthy family, he doesn't take corporate campaign contributions. He's squeaky clean, he's a good speaker and he's honest, way honest.

He's proof that the politics of pandering are misguided at best. He's a liberal who has broad appeal. He's a leader.

He should make your heart go pitter pat, too. That's what this party needs, too, someone who inspires, someone with pitterpatibility.

by jacob wi on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 03:29:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Russ - I don't hate him! (none / 0)

How's this for a ringing endorsement?

As a right-winger, if the Dems take back the White House in 2008, I hope it's Russ that lands there (well, I would really root for Lieberman, but he doesn't have much of a shot, does he?).

Now I certainly don't agree with everything Russ stands for (I guess I wouldn't be much of a conservative if I did) but there is definately something about him that makes him likable. Probably for all (well, most of) the reasons you have outlined. Or maybe it was because I lived in WI for a couple of years after he won election. Anyway, I would be a much happier person if Russ was in the Oval Office as opposed to, say, Hillary.

"Don't get stuck on stupid" - Lt. Gen. Honore
by RepTroll on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 07:58:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Russ - I don't hate him! (none / 0)

Really? I don't get that because according to Gary and SocialNetworker, Hillary is "republican-lite". That's not good enough for you conservatives?
http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 10:45:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Russ - I don't hate him! (none / 0)

"Republican-lite" huh? Yeah, I don't think so. She doesn't fool me with her recent run to the middle!
"Don't get stuck on stupid" - Lt. Gen. Honore
by RepTroll on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 08:13:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Russ - I don't hate him! (none / 0)

As a moderate I find that very amusing. The conservatives judge Hillary on 50+ years of liberal activism, and the liberals judge her by 5 years in the Senate.
http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 08:22:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Russ - I don't hate him! (none / 0)

We guage her by her 1) most recent behavior and 2) her behavior when she thought she had something to gain by being conservative.

If you keep harping that she really is a liberal, you do nothing but further convince us that she's untrustworthy and will do whatever it takes to win.

You'd better serve your candidate by insisting that she really is a moderate, has demonstrated that her whole life, and has not sold out because it was the politically correct thing to do.

by ICantBelieve on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 12:35:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Russ - I don't hate him! (none / 0)

I'm not too concerned about the base. Hillary is the only candidate the dems have that can successfully straddle the gulf separating the new democrats and liberal base of the party. This will result in her nomination and everyone will fall into line in 2008.

Party unity, remember. I've been hearing that a lot lately from liberals.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 07:22:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Russ - I don't hate him! (none / 0)

Wes Clark and Russ Feingold straddle those groups a lot better than Hillary does.  They're both more liberal than Hillary and more appealing to conservatives because they focus on values not positions.  Hillary will never appeal to conservatives because conservatives still think she's a liberal.  They always will.  She doesn't attempt to appeal to people's identities, she focusses on nuancing her positions to try to sound like she agrees with everyone.

Listen to yourself talk about her.  You've been trying to convince me that she really is a liberal by telling me she used to be a liberal activist.  At the same time, you're trying to convince conservatives that she's really a centrist.  Well, which is she?  She's both!  She's neither!  Wait til the wind blows the other direction and she'll be something else!

Nope, what we need to straddle the divide, not just across our party but for the whole country, is someone who's positions don't change.  Someone, who when presented with opposition to their positions, keeps the position and explains it in terms of their values.  People vote their values, not the positions.  People were happy to vote for Hackett even if they didn't agree with him on everything.  Hell, I was happy to work for Hackett even though I didn't agree with him on everything.  Why?  Because I trusted his values and his instincts.  If he can explain to me WHY he disagrees with me on, say, gun control, then I can trust that his position on that one thing might be slightly different than mine, but his heart and mind are in the right place.  As long as I know that, I know that I can trust him not to do anything ridiculous.  I know that if he discovers the assumptions that went into his positions were incorrect, then he'll adapt his position.  

You can't win that kind of trust from people, and therefore you can't win votes, if you change your opinions with the wind.  And the entire argument that you've given for why "us liberals" should like Hillary is that she was a liberal before she was a centrist.  Don't you see how completely counterproductive that argument is?

by ICantBelieve on Sun Aug 07, 2005 at 01:56:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Russ - I don't hate him! (none / 0)

Are you kidding me? Feingold is an antiwar liberal. Clarke will make a great VP pick for Hillary.
http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sun Aug 07, 2005 at 04:02:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Russ - I don't hate him! (none / 0)

You don't even know how to spell Clark's name.  You need to do some research and stop running your mouth.

You have no FACTS to back up your statements.  Take a look around this site.  I've posted plenty of FACTS to back up my opinions.  You should try it.  You might actually do some good for your candidate rather than sounding like a talking-point-machine.

by ICantBelieve on Sun Aug 07, 2005 at 01:24:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Russ - I don't hate him! (none / 0)

Actually, the greatest sign someone is losing an argument is when they start being a spellcheck nazi.

May I be forgiven for misspelling Clark's name and saved from an eternity of damnation!!

As someone who served under Clark in the kosovo campaign for 84 days before his interest in politics, I have far more insight than you can ever hope for.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 12:47:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Russ - I don't hate him! (none / 0)

I doubt it.
by ICantBelieve on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 01:35:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Russ doesn't make my heart go pitter-pat (3.00 / 1)

One more thing for you. In 1992 he knocked off a popular republican incumbent with his Garage Door Campaign.

Get on board friend.

by jacob wi on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 03:31:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I added: "at least not yet" (none / 0)

Russ is reaching out to the netroots, I have seen him post at dKos and maybe here. But he has a long way to go before he begins to create the kind of excitement Dean for America did. I don't know how or when he makes his "I am here to represent the Democratic Wing of the Democratic Party" moment.

I am waiting to catch fire, but Feingold and you loyal Wi Dems need to supply the fuel and the match.

by Bruce Webb on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 04:04:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Russ doesn't make my heart go pitter-pat (3.00 / 2)

Here's another example of pitterpatibility.

We all know what a joke Bush's anti-timetable argument is. That someone it's better not to have a plan.

Read Russ Feingold, in a speech on the Senate Floor, make a mockery of this argument in just a few words.

by jacob wi on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 03:50:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Starch? (none / 0)

I believe Clark was commenting on the Hackett race and encouraging Dems to speak their minds, loudly and passionately. Not advocating for the Iraq war.
Visit my blog Democracy for New Mexico
by barbwire on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 04:52:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Starch? (none / 0)

He may have said it again in reference to Hackett.  

But he originally said it in LA in April (I think) in reference to Dems (Biden, etc) who've been acting like Bush was right about going to Iraq.

We all liked it so much that we made buttons with it on it and we've all been wearing them.  

by ICantBelieve on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 10:57:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Starch? (none / 0)

Clark's starch statement was in reference to Democrats who are agreeing with Bush on the war.  He said those people need to "Get some starch!  George Bush was WRONG about Iraq!"
by ICantBelieve on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 10:55:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Starch? (none / 0)

Whatever. I suspect Clark is far better at articulating his position than some of his supporters. I certainly hope so for his sake. I am looking forward to his conversation with the American people at TPM Cafe later this month.
by Gary Boatwright on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 09:52:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Perhaps (none / 0)

Your blue-collar friends have a lot in common with many on the fringe left who advocate nothing short of immediate withdrawal. Both groups are nuance-handicapped and simply cannot grasp complex policy. Blind support for the war and withdrawal are not the only two positions available.
http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 08:48:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Speaking of nuance handicapped (none / 0)

Have you checked the fringes on your DLC handicapped brain? What's with the "fringe" bullshit? What's this bullshit about not being able to grasp complex policy? You can take your patronizing complexity argument and insert it anally if you can squeeze it past your head.

You can also take your strawman arguments and false dichotomy arguments and insert them anally as well. If it's getting crowded up there you can try removing your head.

by Gary Boatwright on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 09:58:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Speaking of nuance handicapped (2.00 / 1)

As an independent I have no affiliation with any democratic ideology, but the DLC is closer to the vital center than the liberal base. So yes, that would make the base more "fringe".

How about "far-left"? More palatable? You should be proud of what you are -- don't be ashamed.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 07:26:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Speaking of nuance handicapped (none / 0)

The DLC is the heart of corporate corruption in the Democratic party and has no connection to a "vital center," whatever the hell that is. Is that like Nixon's silent majority?

I have no shame whatsoever in what I believe and what I stand for. You can click on my name and view a short political bio I posted. I have nothing to hide and nothing to be ashamed of.

by Gary Boatwright on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 10:33:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Speaking of nuance handicapped (none / 0)

If you stand for any democrat or republican, you stand for a corporate schmoozer.

Not true?

Show me a single democrat who does not accept money from corporate donors. I'll verify it at opensecrets.org.

I'm waiting.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sun Aug 07, 2005 at 04:12:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

This post is ridiculous (3.00 / 1)

Evan Bayh wasn't endorsing the charges Republicans make of Democrats, he was merely acknowledging them.  These perceptions obviously do exist, and while we can quibble over their root cause, it is absolutely nonsensical to attack anyone for bringing them up, especially in a speech to other Democrats.

I know Bayh is associated with the DLC, but that doesn't make everything that passes his lips an attack on the more liberal members of his own party.  Maybe taking a deep breath and thinking how you would interpret the same statement had Howard Dean said it would be good for the stress level here.

Bleeding Heartland - Iowa's Progressive Community-oriented blog
by ItsDrewMiller on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 09:14:55 AM EST

Why use the word "fringe" (3.00 / 1)

We don't want to abandon Moore and move to the Center. We want the Center to let go their blind fear of the Rove/Cheney/Bush machine and move towards us.

Two and a half years ago "Bush Lied" and "the War on Iraq is turning into a quagmire" were minority positions that the DLC tried to marginalize and even stigmatize. But minority doesn't mean "fringe". In point of fact Bush did lie, the War on Iraq has turned into a quagmire, increasing numbers of Americans are embracing those propositions, at least as is showing in the polling.

Bush-Lite did not work as a strategy in either 2002 or 2004. We lost the Presidency and we lost Senate seats in the South by running moderates who were by and large pro-war. Maybe we would have turned in worse numbers if we have run stridently anti-Bush, anti-war candidates, but at worst we would have the same win/loss record. As it is the great majority of our leadership don't have the moral standing to call Bush out.

So their response is to stigmatize that portion of the party that got it right on the facts as "the fringe". Exactly what part of Moore has not in fact been vindicated?

by Bruce Webb on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 09:34:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why use the word "fringe" (none / 0)

Dennis Kucinich is fringe.  There are members of the party, both elected and in the grassroots, that believe that war is never the answer.  These people are at the fringes of the party, but Republicans do successfully use them to define the party as a whole.

Where does he say that he views opponents of the war in Iraq as fringe?  Because I sure didn't see that part of the quote.

Bleeding Heartland - Iowa's Progressive Community-oriented blog
by ItsDrewMiller on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 10:18:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

strawman argument (none / 0)

Where does he say that he views opponents of the war in Iraq as fringe?

It's clearly implied.

There are members of the party, both elected and in the grassroots, that believe that war is never the answer.

This is a strawman argument.

You are either dishonest or ignorant for making it. You need to pull your head out of your ass. You, Bayh and Hillary Clinton are the ones holding the party back, not Moore, Kucinich and me.

Rrrinnggg... Time to change the government.
by Carl Nyberg on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 12:40:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: strawman argument (none / 0)

How is it clearly implied?  You can't just say that and make it true.
Bleeding Heartland - Iowa's Progressive Community-oriented blog
by ItsDrewMiller on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 02:19:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Kucinich voted for the Afghanistan resolution (3.00 / 1)

Every Democrat did except Barbara Lee. And I doubt even she would agree that "war is never the answer"

Now of course you can put most of Peace & Freedom Party members, in that camp, and substantial numbers of Greens, put I suspect you would have a hard time finding any numbers of elected Democracts who would actually voice that opinion, or believe it. Now you can cherry pick the City Councils of Berkeley and Santa Monica. But outside of that name me some names, and give some times and places.

But bascially you just repeated the smear the Republicans always makes against the Democrats.

Some people just never got the concept. I was against this war because I supported the troops. I supported their right to not come home in boxes in a war designed to make the wet-dreams of the Vulcans of the PNAC come true. A careful analysis of available information, backed with some understanding of the concept of deterrance, and an understanding that Chemcial weapons (Saddam's most likely candidate for hidden stockpiles) are not really WMDs at all (unless you control the territory or the skies, because you need massive amounts to be effective), and so that Saddam was no National Security threat to the United States.

Once the war started and then started to go badly idiots started bleating "Saddam bad dictator - kills people" "democracy good". Well fine, send in a CIA hit team, promote democracy by all means possible. But we could have spread a whole heap of democracy around the world for $250,000,000,000. I don't see a bunch of neo-cons suggesting we spend the same amount of money invading Burma.

Pro-war Democrats just got it wrong. They either didn't do their homework or just cowered in fear of the Rovian political machine. Neither gives them the right to lecture me on somehow being anti-military, or weak on National Security. We were a lot more secure before Bush broke the Army, probably for generations.

by Bruce Webb on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 01:11:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why use the word "fringe" (3.00 / 1)

Dennis Kucinich is fringe.

Dennis Kucinich is not fringe in Ohio. He keeps getting re-elected by substantial margins.

There are members of the party, both elected and in the grassroots, that believe that war is never the answer.

That is not the issue. The issue is whether war is the answer in Iraq. Republicans define the Democratic party because the Democratic party refuses to define itself. Perhaps you've heard of Oliver Willis, who has this quaint idea about Brand Democrats?

by Gary Boatwright on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 01:38:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why use the word "fringe" (none / 0)

Dennis Kucinich is WAY fringe in Ohio.  He just happens to be the incumbent in one extremely liberal district in Ohio.
Bleeding Heartland - Iowa's Progressive Community-oriented blog
by ItsDrewMiller on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 02:17:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why use the word "fringe" (3.00 / 1)

Dennis Kucinich is fringe.

Since when did calling for peace become a fringe position in the Democratic party?

The MOQUOL--I Can Save You,  America!

by Dr Tom More on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 02:04:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why use the word "fringe" (none / 0)

If your ran fringe wingers you would have fared worse as a party, alienating the mainstream middle in a general election.

Go ahead, invite Moore to stand on the platform with any candidate you choose in any future elections -- I dare you. I'm very interested to see how that unfolds. Are you? I know MM would be willing to do it...why isn't anyone willing to stand with him on center stage? Surely he can only help their chances according to you.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 08:53:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why use the word "fringe" (none / 0)

I welcome a prominant role for Michael Moore in politics. I doubt we've heard the last of him. He's been a tremendous benefit to the progressive cause.
by Gary Boatwright on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 10:41:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why use the word "fringe" (none / 0)

How about we run him as a VP pick next to Feingold?
http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sun Aug 07, 2005 at 04:13:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This post is ridiculous (3.00 / 0)

The only silly element of this diary is your response to it, and that of several others upstream. Since when does a party define itself by fringe media figures such as Michael Moore, or anyone else who is not the rank and file base or the officials that elected them. A party can not be responsible for everything that individuals say.  That's simply not a realistic response or approach. And, let's be honest, because what I am personally really getting sick of reading this penchant to defend and apologize for bad behavior of centrists. Like I've said a million times, I'm actually a moderate- I would define that moderation in the Wesley Clark line of moderation. There is a difference between moderation, and parroting the GOP's party line.  There is nothiing to be gain for it by the party as a whole.  Even if Bayh were "correct" about a fringe of the party- to then take that fringe to define the whole party is just wrong. To do it for his presidential bid is beyond wrong- it's disloyalty.
by bruh21 on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 01:12:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Bingo! We have a winner! (3.00 / 1)

There is a difference between moderation, and parroting the GOP's party line.

That is the dilemma of the DLC. They are trying to appeal to Democratic primary voters with GOP talking points that include labeling the progressive wing of the party as Michael Moore fringe elites. Will Marshall even referred to war opponents as "the European wing" of the Democratic party.

You don't win a Democratic primary by pissing off Democratic primary voters.

by Gary Boatwright on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 01:41:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bingo! We have a winner! (none / 0)

More importantly, liberal candiates don't win the general election if during the primary you make the arguments against the Republicans are making.  All you do is give free advertising and dig a hole that the winner of the primary has to dig out of.  During the primary Democrats need to be aware of this.  They need to define themselves without attacking each other.  The same is true of a candidates supporters...everyone here. Let the voters pick the candidate that best represents them but recognize the possibility that the other candidate might win and so while campaigning don't tear your opponent apart.  If your opponent wins he/she still has an election to win.  This whole notion of tearing each other apart and when the general election comes around shaking hands and pretending to gush over one another wastes time. energy, and money.
"So this is how liberty dies...to thunderous applause." Padme, Star Wars Episode III
by jrflorida on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 03:08:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bingo! We have a winner! (none / 0)

You don't win a Democratic primary by pissing off Democratic primary voters.

Riiight. That explains why Iowa voters dumped anti-war Dean for voted-for-it-then-against-it Kerry.

That explains why Dean went on to sweep every remaining primary and the party nomination. Oh wait. He didn't.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 08:56:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Iowa (none / 0)

If the Iowa voters had it to do over again, do you think they'd select JFK, the lesser?
Rrrinnggg... Time to change the government.
by Carl Nyberg on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 11:33:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Iowa (none / 0)

If the country had to do it all over again, do you think they'd select Bush?

But to humor you...perhaps, but probably Edwards instead, and then he would go on to be president. The public was slow to catch on to buyer's remorse.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 02:37:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Iowa (none / 0)

This is a stupid question.
Bleeding Heartland - Iowa's Progressive Community-oriented blog
by ItsDrewMiller on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 02:21:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bingo! We have a winner! (3.00 / 0)

Dean is a strawman. I am not a Dean supporter. If I had to do a redo, I would have supported Clark (who I believed in) over Kerry who I supported because I fell for the line that Kerry was the most electable. In other words, I fell for the ABB line of reasoning. You need to check your assumptions that everyone who questions disloyalty by other Democrats such as Bayh, and questions whether they have the party's best interest at heart, is somehow a radical leftist. I am a moderate who happens to no longer buy what centrists are selling. I believe in real strong defense (not the shame we've got going on now- the closest thing to my philosophy on foreign affairs is a combo of Clintonism and the Powell Doctrine mixed with a little bit more liberal leaning underpinnings). On economic issues, I am not even necessarily against a flat tax so long as it protects against abuse from the wealthy and protects the middle and lower classes. There are alot of moderate things I belive in. The difference is that I am not a centrists- I am not triangulating my positions. I believe Iraq for example was a mistake, but having made  the mistake we must now make the best choices possible, whatever they are (I don't pretend to know).  Whereas people like Bayh seem to be arguing from an almost Republican stance. Your arguments about Dean therefore has little or nothing to do with my position about Bayh's comment. My lack of trust that the centrists will not sell us down the river for short term ambition  has everything to do with my fears regarding Bayh's comments.
by bruh21 on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 03:43:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bingo! We have a winner! (none / 0)

"My lack of trust that the centrists will not sell us down the river for short term ambition  has everything to do with my fears regarding Bayh's comments."

Yep.  That's the problem.  Give me an honest to goodness moderate over a liberal who's sold his soul anyday!

by ICantBelieve on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 03:55:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bingo! We have a winner! (none / 0)

Let me just add that it is this lack of trust in us the Democrats- that is why we are perceived of as weak. People think we are not telling them the truth about what we believe. If we want to win the perception war we have to start from  a place of honesty about what we believe.
by bruh21 on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 05:15:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bingo! We have a winner! (none / 0)

PS

One other thing- we can see how this has worked for BUsh. He's percieved as sincere, and therefore, despite disagreement many AMericans are willing to give him the pass go- or at least they were until reacently when his numbers began to fall because they have begun to question his sincerity

by bruh21 on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 05:17:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This post is ridiculous (none / 0)

Once again, he didn't say the Democratic party chooses to define itself in that way.  He says it is defined.  Now I wasn't there so I don't know the context either, but you're reading into it a negative comment when it's just as easy to read in a realistic one.  People like Ward Churchill are used to define liberals, who are then associated with the Democratic party.  That's not something you or I or Bayh support, but it happens, and it is important to acknowledge that if we want to fight against it.
Bleeding Heartland - Iowa's Progressive Community-oriented blog
by ItsDrewMiller on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 06:04:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This post is ridiculous (none / 0)

Here's the problem that Biden, Bayh and similar centrists face. It's a credibility gap with moderates and left wingers who feel that they aren't acting in the best interest of the party. Instead we feel that they are acting in the best interest of their ambition. The way to change this view is for them to start to vigorously defend their party. Reagan's eleventh commandment not only holds for the further left of the party, but also for the centrists. If they were as loyal to the left, as the left has been to us moderates, I doubt we would hear such debate because there would be the trust necessary to believe that despite what we read, Bayh under the context meant something different. As it stands, I think you are reading it his speech what you want to believe. I am simply doing the same by saying I don't give him the benefit of the doubt as you do.
by bruh21 on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 03:35:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This post is ridiculous (none / 0)

That's fair.  I'd like to see the context of the quote so both of us could understand it better.

Either way, I would say that it isn't fair to stereotype all moderates.  Clinton and Vilsack for example have both been good at skipping on opportunities to bash members of their party, while people like Biden seem to relish it.  I guess I wouldn't really even call Vilsack a moderate.  He pushed for an economic development package (some might say corporate welfare package) that gives the DLC a boner, but he's been hardcore for labor, education, healthcare, and pretty much every other important Democratic value.

Depending on how he comes out on the war, there is a good chance he'd get my support in the primary.  That is, if Al Gore doesn't run.

Bleeding Heartland - Iowa's Progressive Community-oriented blog
by ItsDrewMiller on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 02:12:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This post is ridiculous (3.00 / 0)

The whole point I was making -- and I think pretty clearly -- is that Bayh should be refuting claims that Democrats are weak rather than engage in navel-gazing about it. Like I said in my ridiculous post, "I'll admit that Bayh's got a point when he says that our party has an image problem."

What I want to know is why Bayh doesn't just counter the charge. It doesn't do Democrats -- hawks or doves -- any good to constantly talk about how we have an image problem that needs to be fixed, without offering an alternative to the GOP message.

Too often, politicians like Bayh respond by giving ground to Republican critics and just going along with whatever the GOP wants and not sticking with their own principles. Triangulation is great strategy, but it's a total failure if it leads to a never-ending shift to the right.

by Scott Shields on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 01:41:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This post is ridiculous (none / 0)

It doesn't do Democrats -- hawks or doves -- any good to constantly talk about how we have an image problem that needs to be fixed, without offering an alternative to the GOP message.

Likewise it doesn't do democrats any good to constantly criticize the Iraq war without offering a clear alternative on how to fix it.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 08:58:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Humpty Dumpty is broke (none / 0)

The reason we should demand an immediate exit strategy is that Iraq cannot be fixed by the military of a white Christian nation. The Robust Liberal Hawk theory is fundamentally flawed:

No amount of "robust liberal hawk" spin or "liberal realism" spin can counter the truth on the ground or the anti-war sentiment in the party.

The Democrats have absolutely no say in Iraq policy or diplomatic efforts and everybody knows it. Biden and Rangel are throwing Bush a life preserver by talking up a draft. Any effort at a "more effective Iraq strategy" only enhances the Bush/Theocon lie that you can impose Democracy from the barell of a gun.

The only credible Democratic strategy is scathing criticism of Theocon policy and a demand for an immediate exit strategy from Bushco. Bush is still demanding an alternative Democratic plan on Social Security, but doesn't have a plan of his own for either Social Security or Iraq.

It's time to demand answers from Bush and the Republican party. Let's stop trying to pretend that anything but all out opposition is an effective Democratic strategy. The exact same analysis of game theory that applies to Social Security also applies to Iraq.

Any thing else is following the Bush/David Broder suggestion that Democrats have a larger obligation to put forward policy proposals than Bush and the Republicans do. No negotiation and no compromise is the only effective strategy with a school yard bully.

I don't have an obligation to fix Iraq because I didn't break it. The Humpty Dumpty Rule:

If you run over a piece of pottery or an egg with a tank, you can't put it back together again.

The DLC should try being at least as critical of Bush's failed Iraq policy as the Wall Street Journal:

We have yet to find a serviceable framework for the application of our military power in the war on terrorism; in view of potential catastrophes of which we have a great deal of forewarning, we have yet to provide adequately for what used to be called civil defense; and we have no policy in regard to China's steady cultivation of power that soon will vie with our own. Though any one of these things is capable of dominating the coming century, not one has been properly addressed.

That's not a very rigorous demand for genuine Democrats. Why is it so difficult for the DLC?

by Gary Boatwright on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 10:22:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Humpty Dumpty is broke (none / 0)

Oh, the "humpty-dumpty" rule! Otherwise known as: the "drunk driver chapperone" rule.

Sorry, criticism is not a policy. Expecting Bush to fix what he already has broke and proven unwilling to change, is not a policy.

Have some courage and quit being afraid of proposing solutions because you:

  1. have no clue what to do.
  2. are afraid of failing and being blamed for it.

Remember, real people, US troops and Iraq civs are dying over there. Now's not the time to be a moral coward.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 07:30:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Humpty Dumpty is broke (none / 0)

Your rationalization system is also breaking down. This comment is completely irrational. Having a difficult time keeping up sweetie pie?
by Gary Boatwright on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 10:44:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Humpty Dumpty is broke (none / 0)

Oh, still no alternative plans from General-no-clue-no-plan-Boatwright? Thought not. Just more whining and no substance.
http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sun Aug 07, 2005 at 04:15:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This post is ridiculous (none / 0)

Yeah, but you based your comments off of one contextless news article.  How do you know Bayh didn't go on to talk about it?
Bleeding Heartland - Iowa's Progressive Community-oriented blog
by ItsDrewMiller on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 02:22:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This post is ridiculous (none / 0)

I thought the whole point of this diary was that if you're going to try to make Democrats stronger on defense, then you should use statements like the one Clark made rather than the one Bayh made.

Wasn't that the point?  Do we even have to know who made the two statements to comment on that point?  Do we need to say that the DLC is bad and some other faction (what are we calling Clark/Hackett/Feingold???) is good?  Can't we just say that to convince people that Dems can defend the country, we have to show that Dems can defend themselves?

by ICantBelieve on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 11:04:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What was the context? (2.00 / 0)

Are we sure he's talking about the anti-war crowd? I mean, there are plenty of fringe groups in the Democratic Party that I wouldn't like to be defined by...gay rights, abortion rights, etc. come to mind. This may not be a popular position around here, but I think the Democrats are hurt when they allow Kate Michelman to say that abortion is a defining issue of the Democratic Party. Maybe it's folks like her that we're trying to get away from--not expel from the party, of course, but just make it so it doesn't look like they're in charge.
by asf6 on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 01:13:50 PM EST

Who is Kate Michelman? (none / 0)

That is a perfect example of the problem of the DLC. You have just pulled somebody you consider "fringe" and used her to label Democratic progressives. Who in the hell is Kate Michelman and why should I care?

Kate Michelman, whoever that is, is not the problem. If the Democrats had the backbone to define their own agenda the GOPERS would not be able to define the Democratic party for them.

by Gary Boatwright on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 01:44:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

DLCers (3.00 / 1)

The arrogance of the DLC faction is astounding.

Either the DLC can get behind those of us that are serious about security or they can leave the party.

I'm sick of the DLC and its supporters actively undermining the team. If Israel and anti-democratic trade agreements are so important to them, they have a political party. It's called the Republican Party.

DLCers, don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

Rrrinnggg... Time to change the government.
by Carl Nyberg on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 01:48:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: DLCers (none / 0)

Have you ever heard of this Kate person?
by Gary Boatwright on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 03:57:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Kate (none / 0)

no
Rrrinnggg... Time to change the government.
by Carl Nyberg on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 04:05:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: DLCers (none / 0)

Ah, both of your arrogance is astounding. How about you left wing liberals get behind the DLC or leave the party?

Nevermind, that'd be just as stupid and counterproductive.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 09:01:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

or get the fuck out of the way (none / 0)

The Left has been expected to get behind Israel-first, anti-democratic trade agreement supporting Dems for how many elections now.

Fuck ya'll.

Rrrinnggg... Time to change the government.
by Carl Nyberg on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 11:28:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: or get the fuck out of the way (none / 0)

Majority rules.
http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 02:38:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm taking my party back (none / 0)

How do you get behind a group of DINOS with their head up their ass? Or do they have their head up Bush's ass? I guess there isn't any difference.

How does it smell with your head up Bush's ass? Have you ever considered sticking your head up Cheney's ass for a change of scenery?

by Gary Boatwright on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 04:14:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm taking my party back (none / 0)

Is that a personal attack? I'm trying to abide by your standards but in this case I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and not troll rate you. Much of your rambling can often be misconstrued by more logical rational types. Like me.

It's not your party, remember. You said you wished its destruction.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 08:25:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm taking my party back (1.00 / 0)

You have no standards and you have no brain. Your damn right it's a personal attack. I'm sick of your empty gratuitous snark, your personal attacks, your strawman arguments and your false dichotomies. You are about to experience the wrath of a pissed off fighting Democrat. Prepare to be destroyed shit for brains.
by Gary Boatwright on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 10:42:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm taking my party back (none / 0)

You broke General Boatwright Rule #1: no personal attacks.

Please get your emotions in check and return to the table for civilized dialogue.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 07:34:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm taking my party back (none / 0)

Did you miss my declaration of war? I thought I made it quite clear that you had crossed a line and will get no mercy from here on out. My emotions are perfectly in check and I have no interest in civilized dialogue with a troll. Trolls are not capable of civilized dialogue.
by Gary Boatwright on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 10:52:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm taking my party back (none / 0)

Ah, well that would explain your childish tirades. Being that you're a troll and all.
http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sun Aug 07, 2005 at 04:16:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Who is Kate Michelman? (none / 0)

Kate Michelman bio
In fairness Kate is a big player, which doesn't mean this guy has a point:
"For nearly 20 years, she served as President of NARAL Pro-Choice America, catapulting the organization to prominence as the nation's premier reproductive rights group. Under Kate's leadership, NARAL Pro-Choice America transformed the political debate and positioned a woman's freedom to choose as a fundamental American liberty.

Kate was a close advisor -- and remains a close friend -- to former President Bill Clinton."

It constantly amazes me that people don't get the asymmetry between Choice and Right to Life. No is proposing forced abortions, plenty of Pro-Choice people are staunchly anti-abortion when it comes to their own choices. Lots of people join me in hoping that in the future abortion becomes "Safe, available and rare". Choice is all about freedom and personal responsibility. Whereas Right to Life privileges certain peoples particular moral beliefs to the right of a woman to control her body. If you prefer not to associate with people who value personal freedom then the Republican Party might well be the place for you.

by Bruce Webb on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 04:21:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Who is Kate Michelman? (none / 0)

So Kate Michelman is one of the good guys. What is it with these DLC morons who think we have to endorse Pat Roberson and Jerry Falwell to win elections?
by Gary Boatwright on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 05:47:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Who is Kate Michelman? (none / 0)

If you're talking about me, I would object to being called a "DLC moron" on both the "DLC" and the "moron" counts. I'm not asking you to endorse anyone. I'm asking Democrats to take control of their party back from radical special interest groups who, though they may advocate positions many Democrats agree with, are SPECIAL INTEREST GROUPS and are happy to sacrifice electoral success (and all the good things that go along with that) in the name of their cause. It's simply not wise to let your party be dictated to by NARAL and LULAC and the AFL-CIO (RIP).
by asf6 on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 08:48:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

More codespeak (none / 0)

What the hell is LULAC? Sweet jesus, are you from the Rush Limbaugh branch of the Democratic party?

LULAC?

by Gary Boatwright on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 09:35:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: More codespeak (none / 0)

You're hilarious. "I'm ignorant, therefore you're a right-winger."

http://www.lulac.org/

by asf6 on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 10:43:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: More codespeak (none / 0)

Not exactly. You are ignorant, therefore you are a troll. LULAC is hardly a household acronym. In the future if you want to mention obscure names like Kate whoever or obscure acronyms like LULAC provide a link. You are also a troll because you are using GOP talking points to criticize Democrats.
by Gary Boatwright on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 10:46:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: More codespeak (none / 0)

Actually, no. A troll at MyDD is someone who seeks to disrupt civilized discourse with inflammatory statements, a definition you fit to the letter:

  1. You use childish profane insults.
  2. You encourage intra-party infighting.
  3. You openly state your intention to start flame wars.
  4. You use GOP talking points to criticize factions within the democratic party.

And ignorance has nothing to do with trolling, although you are an exception to that rule.
http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 07:40:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That's funny! (none / 0)

A troll defining what a troll is. Of couse a troll is not capable of defining the truth so it gets the facts wrong. I have not been using GOP talking points, that would be your specialty.

Nice try for a troll, but your immitation of human behavior is quite transparent.

by Gary Boatwright on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 10:54:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's funny! (none / 0)

Of course you've been using GOP talking points. You're an anti-free-trader conservative like Pat Buchanan. You also regurgitate Fox News points about Hillary. Lastly, you repeat republican rhetoric about democratic factions like the DCCC and DLC. You might as well have a GOP club card.
http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sun Aug 07, 2005 at 04:19:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Who is Kate Michelman? (none / 0)

Please provide links to DLC members endorsing Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell. Thanks.
http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 09:02:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Who is Kate Michelman? (none / 0)

Have you heard of Hillary Clinton? The Workplace Religious Freedom Act:

Mr. SANTORUM (for himself, Mr. KERRY, Mr. ENSIGN, Mr. LIEBERMAN, Mr. BROWNBACK, Mrs. CLINTON, Mr. SMITH, Mr. SCHUMER, Mr. TALENT, Mr. CORZINE, Mr. COBURN, and Mr. HATCH) introduced the following bill; which was read twice and referred to the Committee on Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions[Great company....not]

That's an example of endorsing the agenda of Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell. Here's the link to the whole diary S.677 -- "Workplace Religious Freedom Act of 2000.

Hillarious is a religious wingnut. Fancy that.

by Gary Boatwright on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 04:41:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Who is Kate Michelman? (none / 0)

Ah, more irrational conspiracy nonsense.

OMFG!! Stop the press!!!1!

A bill in support of allowing people to attend religious activities and not be persecuted for it by their employers! Amazing that such a bill took 200 years to pass when our founding fathers fled their homelands in order to have such freedoms to practice their religion. Truly shocking.

And more shocking is the total lack of specification that this bill would only provide protection for god-fearing christians, not pagans of jewish or muslim or buddhist faith! Surely Jerry and Pat read this before they voiced their support?! How dare they provide equal religious protection for all. Blaphemy!

Armageddon is nigh!

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 08:32:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Playing footsie with Santorum is OK with you? (none / 0)

The bill allows pharmacists to refuse to sell women legal prescription drugs that have been prescribed by her physician. A pharmacist can refuse to sell a woman birth control pills. I don't care what religion you practice. In America you are not allowed to impose your religious beliefs on me. In America you do not have the right to refuse to sell something as commonly prescribed as birth control pills, because you think a blastocyst is a human being.

A list of co-sponsors that includes Santorum, Brownback and Hatch is not a conspiracy theory. It is a fact. If that's the company you and Hillarious want to run with, be my guest. Some of the "fringe elements" of the Democratic party are not big fans of Hatch, Brownback and Santorum.

by Gary Boatwright on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 10:54:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Playing footsie with Santorum is OK with you? (none / 0)

A bit paranoid are we? You people are reading way too deep into that bill.

If a pharmacy refuses to sell birth control pills, that's the right of the merchant. They can choose to carry whatever products they want for whatever reasons. If they sell birth control pills or condoms or whatever, they cannot discriminate against a customer who wishes to buy said product -- that is forbidden by law and they can be sued. In America you can go to whatever pharmacy you choose...no one is forcing anything on anyone.

All that bill is, is basically a formal guarantee for employees to be able to practice their religion without being persecuted by their employer for it. In the military, we had a system in place just like it. A commander had to make an honest effort to accomadate the religious needs of his troops, regardless of their faith. There used to be instances when less popular faiths would not be given the same privelages as people of say, christian faith, so these rules were set in place to protect the minority faiths.

In the military where drug use leads to court martial and imprisonment, someone claiming 1/8 indian heritage of certain tribes can legally smoke peyote at religious events! Even peope of wacky "religions" like wicca (witches) are allowed to observe their pib bloodletting or whatever they need to do for spiritual happiness.

So what? I'm an agnostic but what's the deal with your religious phobias? You're simply forcing your anti-religion views on 95% of the public that professes a belief in a supreme being and want a right at work to practice it.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 07:53:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Playing footsie with Santorum is OK with you? (none / 0)

Relgious rights are practiced in a church or the privacy of one's home. There is no right to impose your religious beliefs on the public square. A woman has a right to buy any legal product at any commercial outlet that is open to the public. That is why Hillarious has to team up with Santorum and Brownback to restrict a woman's right to be a fully autonomous human being.

A merchant whose doors are open to the public does not have a right to refuse to provide their services to someone because of their sex or their race. You may wish to study up on the Civil Rights Act. It is one of those human things that trolls have difficulty understanding with advanced concepts like equal rights.

by Gary Boatwright on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 11:00:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Playing footsie with Santorum is OK with you? (none / 0)

Uh no. Show me where it says in the constitution someone cannot practice their religion in public. Show me where it says they can only practice at home or at a building of worship.

A priest drop you as a child? What a hateful person you are. Now I know why you and Pat are on the same page regarding protectionism.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sun Aug 07, 2005 at 04:24:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Who is Kate Michelman? (none / 0)

I don't know what you're talking about. You people spend so much time on these liberal blogs that you just spout the same bile back and forth to each other and make zero sense to someone from the outside.

Kate Michelman is a well-known, well-publicized former president of NARAL. She and others like her ARE the problem because they insist that the party kowtow to her. And the party willingly accepts. I'm not "using her to label Democratic progressives," whatever that even means. I'm using her (and her claim during the Specter-chairmanship debacle that abortion is a defining issue of the party) to show that if we keep allowing special interest groups to define our party (with or without the help of the GOP), we are sunk.

by asf6 on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 08:44:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Who is Kate Michelman? (none / 0)

Kate Michelman is not the problem. NARAL has a very mainstream, moderate position that is perfectly acceptable. It is not the official Democratic party position and nobody has to kowtow to her or to NARAL.

Personally, I have no problem with NARAL or Kate Michelman. Freedom of Choice for women is a defining issue of the Democratic party. Women are not a special interest group. If the Democratic Party abandons the right of women to make personal medical decisions based on their personal moral and religious convictions the Democratic Party is sunk.

Thanks for the GOP talking points, but I'm not buying. Fighting Democrats don't surrender to self righteous moral hypocrites.

by Gary Boatwright on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 11:00:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

bayh (3.00 / 1)

How much do you all wanna bet that the AP reporter mischaracterized Bayh's quote:

Bayh has spoken on this topic before. Multiple times. And he's always careful to criticize the GOP's incompetence, in addition to phrasing it as a perception problem:

Well, there's lots of other things I could say about our nation's security, and mending families, so that we instill in our kids the right and the values. About our security situation, I'll only say this, you know, we still have our work cut out for us. Too many Americans just aren't there yet in terms of believing that we will stand up and defend this country, when that is necessary. There was a poll taken about six weeks before the election. When asked the basic question: "Who do you trust to defend America?" "Who do you trust, the Democratic Party or the Republican Party? Even with everything that had gone wrong, all the problems that have gone on in Iraq, for which this administration should be held accountable, by two to one the American people still said the Republican Party.

And that's not right, because it is not true. But if that's the perception, then it's a perception that we must change. And the good news is that we have a long and honorable heritage of defending this country and standing for freedom. Standing against oppression, whether it's in apartheid South Africa, or Augusto Pinochet's Chile. Or fascism. Or communism. Standing, for freedom, across the world. The freedom to benefit from the fruits of your labors, the freedom to choose your own elected officials, the freedom to worship your own god as you see fit and associate with those of your own choosing. That's the heritage of the Democratic Party.

It was John Kennedy who called upon this country to pay any price and bear any burden. It was Harry Truman who drew the line in the sand against the spread of global communism. It was Franklin Roosevelt and Woodrow Wilson who led this nation, and this world, through two world wars to make the planet safe for democracy. That's the heritage we need to remind the American people of.


by blueflorida on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 01:16:17 PM EST

Re: bayh (none / 0)

LINK
by blueflorida on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 01:16:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: bayh (3.00 / 1)

OK, I am a lurker (regular reader of DD) but rarely comment.  On Bayh, I must.  Alas (as his constituent) I know him well. He is first, foremost and always AMBITIOUS. He will say whatever, do whatever, BE whatever is needed to succeed.

   support the war, not support the war
   support higher education, not support higher education
   tax cut, be a fiscal conservative

If he were ever our nominee, the GOP would have it easy, he stands for nothing, DOES nothing (check his record as governor or senator), and has held just about every position you can imagine.

He is not his Dad.

by lindiana0 on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 02:04:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: bayh (3.00 / 0)

I respect your personal point-of-view RE: Bayh, but I would disagree.

Look, obviously, I'm not from Indiana. But what I've seen of Bayh show's me that he clearly is a principled guy. Maybe he doesn't share all of your principles, but he's definitely got a hard core of beliefs that he's willing to defend.

Bayh's been adamant about the national security stuff from his first days in the Senate. You should check his record. To say it's just a flavor of the month for him is to be flatly misinformed. He's a hawk. He's been pretty open about that,  and while you and others may not like that fact, I respectfully challenge you to show that he's been misrepresenting himself on these grounds.

It would be incredibly easy for someone looking to challenge Hillary, and as ambitious as you say that Bayh is, to pander to anti-Bush/anti-Iraq War sentiment in the Democratic Party. You've seen Edwards do it. You're seeing Kerry do it. You haven't seen Bayh do it yet - I wonder why?

Second, to claim he did nothing as governor is equally false. Does 21st Century Scholars ring a bell? How about the fact that he signed the right to collective bargaining into law? Or that he helped create over 300K new jobs?

by blueflorida on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 02:25:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: bayh (none / 0)

He is not his dad. Neither is G. W. Bush...but against the wishes of John Stuart Mill...the politically knowledgeable and college education don't get two votes to outweight those people in Indiana who never realized it's not the same Bayh or in the same Thurmond in South Carolina.
by risenmessiah on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 01:41:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

What is Bayh's position on abortion? (none / 0)

There are a lot of things I don't know about Bayh. If he is to the right of Hillary on Freedom of Choice he is already dead meat. Hillary may have a position that is too far right for a Democratic primary. Of course, nobody knows what Hillary's position is on Freedom of Choice. She used to support a woman's right to choose, but that was before she started playing footsie with Santorum, Hatch and Brownback on the Religious Freedom in the Workplace Act.
by Gary Boatwright on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 03:56:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What is Bayh's position on abortion? (none / 0)

He's pro-choice.
by blueflorida on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 04:15:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What was Bayh's position on Teri Schiavo? (none / 0)

Did he criticize Frist? Did he make any statements about the issue of keeping brain dead people on life support against the wishes of their family?
by Gary Boatwright on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 04:39:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

How did Bayh vote on the Patriot Act? N/T (none / 0)


by Gary Boatwright on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 05:42:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

He is a senator and not named "Feingold" (none / 0)

So he voted yes, of course.

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=107&sessio n=1&vote=00313

by Geotpf on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 05:46:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

A senator and not named "Feingold" (none / 0)

Thanks for that. I suspected, but I wasn't certain. So a Democrat who is (1.) anti-abortion, (2.) voted for the Patriot Act and who (3.) voted for MBNA Biden's bankruptcy bill is going to win a Democratic primary?

Anybody to the right of Hillary is not a serious candidate.

by Gary Boatwright on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 09:46:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A senator and not named "Feingold" (none / 0)

You're right. Because anyone to the right of Hillary would be out of the mainstream just like anyone to the left of Hillary.
http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 10:51:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A senator and not named "Feingold" (3.00 / 0)

You're right. Because anyone to the right of Hillary would be out of the mainstream just like anyone to the left of Hillary.

So you say, Hillary is just right!! Now there's one die-hard supporter! :)

But with Hillary shifting further to the right every day, aren't you having a hard time keeping pace with her? :)

Neo

ps: I think Hillary would be best served to stay close to her roots, because, as you've probably heard before, however "red" she tries to paint herself, she will always be the Hillary, an icon of liberalism, in people's minds, and the likes of Limbaugh will make sure that that imagery is sustained ad infinitum.

CLICK to Draft Al Gore!
by NeoLiberal on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 01:28:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A senator and not named "Feingold" (none / 0)

Well, from my perspective as a centrist, yes I think she's "just right".

Also, as she shifts to the right she is becoming closer to center where Bill Clinton is. Given that prior to 2000 she's had a very liberal record, she's actually moving towards me, not away from me.

Recall that prior to her tenure as a senator she was the liberal base's darling, seen as a counterweight to her husband's centrist politics.

Once she's president, she'll be free to begin adopting more progressive policies, especially in a second term. The GOP knows this, which is why they're constantly reminding their supporters of Hillary's liberal past.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 02:43:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A senator and not named "Feingold" (none / 0)

Once she's president, she'll be free to begin adopting more progressive policies, especially in a second term.

Is Hillarious running for President of her PTA? That sounds like a perfect position for her and fits right in with her stand on videos and restricting the First Amendment.

by Gary Boatwright on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 10:35:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A senator and not named "Feingold" (none / 0)

Wow. You get that straight from Hannity today? Nice GOP talking point.
http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sun Aug 07, 2005 at 04:26:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What is Bayh's position on abortion? (none / 0)

Bayh was one of the few Democrats who voted with Bill First and Rick Santorum for the unconstitutional ban on so-called "partial birth" abortions that Bush signed into law. The courts later struck down the law because it was unconstitutional.
by whodat527 on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 01:45:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What is Bayh's position on abortion? (none / 0)

Evan Bayh was one of the few Democrats who voted with Bill Frist and Rick Santorum for the unconstitutinal ban on so-called "partial birth" abortions that Bush signed into law.  The courts struck down the law because the ban was unconstitutional.
by whodat527 on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 01:48:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Rhetoric doesn't win wars (none / 0)

That's what the DLC doesn't understand. You can have all of the nice, flowery, patriotic speeches in the world about what a tough guy you are, but unless you identify a specific, indentifiable military objective, there is no reason for American GIs to die in Iraq.

Like all the rest of them, Bayh just assumes that it is OK to butcher innocent Iraqi men, women and children in an immoral war. It's not OK. It is immoral to wage war without a justification and without a military objective.

by Gary Boatwright on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 05:44:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rhetoric doesn't win wars (1.00 / 0)

So propose a military objective then. General Boatwright, how would you solve Iraq today?

I take it your alternative is to let civil war consume the Iraqis and allow them to die in that morally acceptable fashion instead. You're too good to wipe Bush's ass because you didn't vote for him, I get it. You don't really care about the Iraqis, just yourself. Good thing no one listens to selfish wingnuts like you out here in the mainstream.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 09:09:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Personal attack, no substance (1.00 / 0)


by Gary Boatwright on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 09:51:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Personal attack, no substance (none / 0)

No substance -- ratings abuse.
http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 10:52:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Again I ask... (none / 0)

General Boatwright, how would you solve Iraq today?
http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 10:53:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

General? (none / 0)

General Boatwright? Where art thou General Boatwright?
http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 08:35:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I prefer Admiral (none / 0)

My grandfather was an Admiral, but I have never been in the military. I have an uncle that won the bronze star in WWII and two older brothers that went to Nam. You can just call me Admiral if it trips your trigger.
by Gary Boatwright on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 10:37:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I prefer Admiral (none / 0)

I'll give your gramps the benefit of the doubt in light of your poor credibility.

Admiral is a title only your grandfather earned. You aren't fit for "private" until you serve your country in uniform.

How about Armchair General Boatwright?

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sun Aug 07, 2005 at 04:29:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

In Bayh's defense (2.00 / 0)

I can remember sitting in with a group of Demcrats just after 9-11.  Of a group of about 40, I'd say probably 8 were opposed to any military action -- even in Afghanistan!

It's very hard for Americans to trust the Dems on defense when there are quite a few Dems who make the "America is the source of all evil, therefore however many people died on 9-11 is just chickens coming home to roost" argument.

While, within reason that argument makes sense, it doesn't in the context of al-Qaeda or the war on terror.

If these were Latin American revolutionary who did this, I could get the argument.  But, I doubt the FARC would ever be dumb enough to try something like 9-11.

The thing that makes 9-11 worst is that the Arabs wouldn't have a pot to piss in if it weren't for the United States.  I guarantee you that for all the bullshit al-Qaeda puts out there, the pricks wouldn't even let a minute lapse after coming into power before that first barrel of oil got shipped to the United States.

And that Democrats suffer any doubt on this question is the precise reason Americans don't trust them on defense.

You want a Democratic platform for the war on terror:  "Let's stop bombing the wrong people and bomb Saudi Arabia.  They're the fuckers who did 9-11."

You bring me a Democrat who promises to bomb Saudi Arabia, and I'll give you the first Democrat to sweep the South since Roosevelt -- and he won't lose any northern states either.

Americans like a fight.  They like the right fight even more.

by jcjcjc on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 01:46:46 PM EST

populism (none / 0)

First let's force Israel to make peace with the Palestinians.

Putting the heat on Israel will play well in the heartland too. But it won't play well with Zionist campaign contributors.

Rrrinnggg... Time to change the government.
by Carl Nyberg on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 01:52:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Israel (none / 0)

I definitely support forcing Israel to the peace table.  In fact, given current population trends in the region, I think Israel needs to make peace before the Palestinians can overwhelm them with sheer numbers.

A military embargo should be the first step: not a single bullet finds its way into Israel until the Israelis sign off on a complete plan for withdrawl.

That said, I think Sharon is doing a surprisingly good job of trying to end the occupation.

History may remember Sharon's efforts as a "Nixon goes to China" sort of moment, where the last guy you'd pick becomes the guy who gets it done.

by jcjcjc on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 01:57:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Israel (none / 0)

Cut the money and the arms. And then stop shielding Israel from UN Security Council resolutions with the U.S. veto.

Israel's attitude toward negotiation would change quickly.

Sharon has no interest in fully withdrawing from the West Bank. Zionism has become a fascist ideology.

Rrrinnggg... Time to change the government.
by Carl Nyberg on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 02:08:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Israel's demise is becoming possible (none / 0)

One has to wonder what happens if Israel fractures over the occupation.  

Then again, one has to doubt whether Arab values would allow the kind of leadership to emerge to take advantage of the moment.  For every Saladin, the Arab world churns out 100 Saddam Husseins.

Therein is a problem that supporters of the Palestinians and the Arabs as a whole need to address: what is the Arab world's fixation with clinging to failed leaders for decades on end?  They treat piss-poor leadership like a long stock market position: you gotta stay it out or you'll miss the eventual returns.

The Arab world needs to learn to jettison these shitheads like Nasser and Arafat.  They'd be surprised how much easier their dealings with Israel and the US would be.

It's pretty bad when Hosni Mubarak is what you hold up as a model of success.

by jcjcjc on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 02:21:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Israel's demise is becoming possible (none / 0)

Do you think the USA should get to decide who leads Arab countries?

Israel's demise is not likely, but the failure to make a just peace makes it more likely.

Israel insists on taking an absolutist (and quite unreasonable) position. This causes the Palestinians to dig in their heals more too.

Rrrinnggg... Time to change the government.
by Carl Nyberg on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 04:20:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Israel's demise is becoming possible (none / 0)

"Do you think the USA should get to decide who leads Arab countries?"

No, but I think the Arabs ought to stop bitching until they get rid of their pathetic so-called governments.

by jcjcjc on Sun Aug 07, 2005 at 10:17:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Israel's demise is becoming possible (none / 0)

I think everyone in that region needs to quit bitching.
http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 12:48:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: In Bayh's defense (3.00 / 0)

It's very hard for Americans to trust the Dems on defense when there are quite a few Dems who make the "America is the source of all evil, therefore however many people died on 9-11 is just chickens coming home to roost" argument.

While, within reason that argument makes sense, it doesn't in the context of al-Qaeda or the war on terror.

You're simplifying the argument, and you're applying the exception to the rule when it comes to Dems.

Most Dems don't think this.

And of course there's no justification for 9/11, and there's no moral equivalence here, but it's foolish not to examine what happened before bin Laden flew planes into the WTC and Pentagon on 9/11.

Fact is, we, in part, created bin Laden. Look at the history of our Cold War By Proxy in Afghanistan in the 80's. We encouraged Islamic fundamentalism. We printed and distributed Korans, because siding with Islam was a way to fight the Godless Commies(tm).

This was a mistake. Maybe no one could forsee it at the time, but in retrospect it was a mistake.

So we can either admit that, and learn from it, or not. I think the lesson clearly is to ensure we have a plurality of opinions and ideas, that we think through our actions, that we don't operate our government in secret...etc, etc.

What's frustrating is that we cannot have this conversation, because it goes from there to "Liberals Support the Terrorists!" and "Liberals Hate America!"

What's doubly frustrating is that it's not just Republicans doing this -- it's Moderates in our own Party! (see DLC's Blueprint, if you're not up on that.)

Do we have to always play "I-love-my-country-more-than-you?"

by cscs on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 02:42:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Americans fear enemies within (none / 0)

As a nation with little experience with a real Fifth Column, America has long gone to just inventing one.

It cost the Democratic Party dearly during the 1950s (hell, it basically saved the Republican Party from complete destruction).  

It is costing us again.

That handful of young radical liberals has always painted the Democratic Party into a bad corner.  Remember, it doesn't take more than one person to burn down an entire house with everyone in it.

The ebb and flow of things thankfully is allowing much the same to happen in the GOP.

Now, it is a testament to the left's resolve that they have largely stood in line with the party, while the far right is clearly feeling its limits.

But, until Americans feel reassured by the left on security issues, the right's failures aren't going to be convincing by themselves.

The Dems need a strong platform to stand on.

As I've said before, that platform should be "Bomb the right country."

As far as I'm concerned, the most fascist fuckers in history could win my vote by promising to turn Saudi Arabia into beaded glass.  

I guarantee anyone -- literally anyone, including a gay communist abortion doctor -- could win the US presidency by promising to destroy Saudi Arabia.

That's what Dems need to get.  They need to find the next level of the security argument, the point where GOP waffling and side ventures has taken us way off course.

Project as stronger on the war on terror, and America will vote for you.  Americans are intelligent enough to understand that we bombed the wrong country.  Democrats just need to be smart enough to offer to bomb the right country.

by jcjcjc on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 02:42:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You are whack jcjcjc (none / 0)

It sounds like you are a fan of Rep. Tancredo. Nuke Saudi Arabia? Bomb Mecca? You couldn't win election as dog catcher with a plank like that. Well, maybe in Alabama.

That is not a "strong platform." That is an insane platform.

by Gary Boatwright on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 11:05:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Suit yourself (none / 0)

I'm just a little put off by the fact that the Saudis have yet to pay any major price for 9-11, and I am more than willing to bet other Americans are, too.

And, of course, the Dems are too big of pussies to even point this fact out.

Instead, they cower in the shadow of the GOP while the GOP gets us into a war with the wrong country.

No big deal.  Right?

by jcjcjc on Sun Aug 07, 2005 at 10:15:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: In Bayh's defense (none / 0)

Advocating the bombing of Saudi Arabia, nation of the birth of Islam, that's not exactly a very sound strategy either. In fact, that's a great way to really boost Osama and Zarqawi, nevermind small potatoes Iraq!
http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 02:47:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The problem is very simple (none / 0)

At some point, you either hold the bastards -- the real bastards, the Saudis, the Wahabis, the Salafis, etc -- accountable, or you go home.
by jcjcjc on Mon Aug 08, 2005 at 03:03:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Good to see these DLC'ers (3.00 / 1)

exposing themselves for the cowards they are.....
by Chavez100 on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 02:26:04 PM EST

Re: Good to see these DLC'ers (none / 0)

And troll rating anyone who isn't a DLC sockpuppet.
by Gary Boatwright on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 03:58:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Good to see these DLC'ers (1.00 / 1)

Oh, kind of like Gary troll-rating anyone who isn't a Michael Moore sockpuppet.
http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 10:55:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Good to see these DLC'ers (none / 0)

Have I troll rated anyone except VoteHillarious? I don't think so. Maybe if you make a feeble effort to add content to your snark you would be more persuasive, but I doubt it.

I do appreciate your contribution to the cause of pissing people off about Hillary. With supporters like you she doesn't need enemies.

by Gary Boatwright on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 10:04:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Good to see these DLC'ers (none / 0)

Actually yes. How about your pal NCDem?

With trolling dems like yourself, who needs republicans?

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 07:56:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Good to see these DLC'ers (none / 0)

Actually I've been rating NCDem up with 3s numb knickers.
by Gary Boatwright on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 10:39:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Good to see these DLC'ers (none / 0)

Perhaps in a year it'll make up for all the 1's.
http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sun Aug 07, 2005 at 04:31:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Damn straight! (none / 0)

Look at what happened to John Kerry last year. He only won a paltry 47 states in the primaries.
by zt155 on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 02:31:21 PM EST

Re: Damn straight! (none / 0)

He may have won one or two more if he hadn't conceeded.
by Gary Boatwright on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 04:18:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The Truth Hurts (2.00 / 0)

The amount of vitriol being thrown Bayh's way here is expected and par for the course. Just answer this question: Is the Republican Party or the Democratic Party "perceived" as being stronger on issues of National Security? Duh... So if you subscribe to reality the only thing Bayh is saying is that Democrats need to work harder to be perceived as strong on National Security. All the bellyaching about moderate Democrats and the DLC is puerile at best. We've lost the last two elections and Bayh is refreshing in his approach and is going to keep pissing many off because he doesn't kowtow before the altar of neo-liberalism and Dean. Wake up! Dean lost. Kerry lost. A new approach is needed. (that is, of course, unless you love to keep losing.)
by lobejammer on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 02:40:04 PM EST

Re: The Truth Hurts (3.00 / 1)

A new approach is needed.

Yeah, except the DLC is offering up the same old approach: Be more like Republicans.

What the Dems need to do is start FIGHTING whenever the GOP paints as us weak. It's the lack of a fight that creates the "weak" perception.

Kerry didn't fight. He equivocated. He justified. He parsed words.

Is Bayh going to call the GOP for what it is? Is Bayh going to fight? Is Bayh going to talk straight?

The bar has been raised -- a fighting Dem is Paul Hackett.

Let's see what the DLC gives us. But if whomever they produce doesn't measure up to the language, tone and tactics of Hackett's campaign, good luck. You'll need it. I'll won't support that in the primary.

by cscs on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 02:50:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Truth Hurts (none / 0)

Oh right, and nobody should forget all the liberal nominees that won the presidency.

Like FDR. Oops, no he was an interventionist hawk. Truman? Negative and ditto. How about Wilson? Nah, he was also an internationalist hawk. JFK? Yeah right...he was willing to do World War III.

Walter Mondale? Doh! He got swept by Reagan.

Sorry, but precedence is hardly in your favor. And Paul Hackett's saving grace is he's an Iraq war military veteran. He also says Bush is a son of a bitch but he'd still die for him. Would you die for Bush?

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 09:19:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

here's a truth for you (none / 0)

You lost in 2004 and 2000.

The forward-looking, security-comprehending Dems get to pick the nominee in 2008.

Sit down and shut up. You might learn something.

Rrrinnggg... Time to change the government.
by Carl Nyberg on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 11:34:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: here's a truth for you (none / 0)

Hey don't group Gore with centrists, he ditched Bill Clinton and took the populist route. It's not my fault the SCOTUS decided that election.

You guys lost in 1980, 1984, and 1988. Even though Dukakis looked brilliant in that tank and helmet. Actually, I don't think a single liberal democrat who wasn't an internationalist hawk has won the presidency in over a century, maybe more.

I'll just let politics take its course. May majority rule -- just don't forget that party unity thing.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 02:54:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: here's a truth for you (none / 0)

Gore picked Lieberman, a former DLC Chair, for his V.P. choice too. A little 80's nostalgia? Who's stuck in the past now?

Another excellent adoption of the GOP talking points with the tank helmet story. Isn't Dick Cheney's ass getting crowded with all of the DLCers squeezing in? You and Hillarious might want to try adopting some Democratic talking points on occasion. You will find that Democratic talking points are far more popular in the Democratic party than Republican talking points.

I hope that is not too complex of an argument for your dittohead brain to absorb. Before you start preaching about party unity, you might try talking like a Democrat instead of a Republican.

by Gary Boatwright on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 10:31:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: here's a truth for you (none / 0)

Ah, once again your emotional tirades prove I am right on the money! Yep. Hasn't been a non-internationalist hawk democrat president in over a century. More historical precendent that we don't want to go the Dukakis route.
http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 07:59:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: here's a truth for you (none / 0)

Now that's funny! Sweetie pie is accusing others of emotional tirades! What the hell is a "non-internationalist hawk"? Are you talking about Pat Buchanan and fortress America types? What does that have to do with Dukakis or anything else? Another sign of imminent mental breakdown.
by Gary Boatwright on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 10:47:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: here's a truth for you (none / 0)

Pat Buchanan? Ah yes, your protectionist leader and anti-free-trader icon.

The term internationalist hawk confusing you? That would be moderate democrats, you know, like watch you call "fighting democrats" today. Nice try, but if you want to be moderate, just wear it proudly! No need to pull republican misnomers.

Wilson, FDR, Truman, JFK, LBJ, Clinton. Basically every great democratic president was an internationalist hawk and social liberal.

Antiwar far left liberals don't make it to the oval office, let alone out of the primaries usually. They are consigned to the graveyard of failed liberals like Mondale and Dukakis.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sun Aug 07, 2005 at 04:37:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: here's a truth for you (none / 0)

Clinton was not a hawk.  Clinton had a set of rules to define "when you can do good, you should."
by ICantBelieve on Sun Aug 07, 2005 at 01:25:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: here's a truth for you (none / 0)

Oh give me a break. I really get a good laugh from you liberals who adopt a moderate hawk like Clark as a liberal, despite opposing him in 2004 because back then he was supposedly a Clinton mole.

I also get a great laugh when liberals bash Clinton for his centrist policies, often disowning him from their democratic party, yet when someone points out he's an internationalist hawk you all are so quick to pull him back close and say no he's not!

As someone who served in the military under Clinton's terms I have a first hand understanding of his international hawkishness.

I was serving a short tour in Korea when a North Korean sub was beached and escalated tensions. Clinton alerted our base within 3 hours of airstriking the North's nuke facilities before a breakthrough last minute agreement from the North to stand down. No president since the Korean War has been so willing to take on North Korea, not even our cowboy president today. The North has 15,000 artillary pieces arrayed on the DMZ that can cause 100,000 casualties in Seoul within the opening hours of a war.

I served in the B-1 unit that in 1998 launched airstrikes on Saddam's suspected WMD sites (Op Desert Fox), a landmark first military use of the conventional redesigned B-1.

I served in Op Allied Force, liberation of Kosovo, under Clark on Clinton's orders to stop Serbian genocide in the balkans. Despite opposition from the GOP and some liberal groups who opposed military intervention. Clark ordered his commanders to give us weekly intel briefing where we got to see the daily satellite footage of the aftermath of our airstrikes -- you should see what happens when 37 MK-82 500 lb bombs hit a Serbian command center and 3 buses of Serbian troops. We were dropping cluster bombs on the Serbs for the first 2 weeks of the war until human rights groups and the media complained so much about kids picking up little parachutes that we switched to airburst munitions.

So spare me your uninformed input. Clinton was a hawk. I know this by first hand knowledge when he was my commander in chief.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 01:03:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: here's a truth for you (none / 0)

There you go again...

How many times do I have to tell you that I've been a Clark supporter all along???  So stop with your talking points crap about liberals calling Clark a mole and "suddenly" adopting him as a liberal.  You can say it over and over and over again all you want but it doesn't make it the truth.

Clark told us that Clinton had a set of rules before engagement.  They sounded pretty conservative.  He told us this at the Library of Congress panel discussion with Sadako Ogata.  She stated clearly at that discussion that the Balkans actions were justified.

All war looks disgusting from the ground.  That's why it's a last, last, last resort.  I'm sorry you had to see that.  I'm glad I've never had to.  But going to war does not make someone a hawk.

by ICantBelieve on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 01:45:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Truth Hurts (3.00 / 1)

Is the Republican Party or the Democratic Party "perceived" as being stronger on issues of National Security?

That might change if the DLC would stop using the GOPERS talking points.

Bayh is refreshing in his approach and is going to keep pissing many off because he doesn't kowtow before the altar of neo-liberalism and Dean. Wake up! Dean lost.

That would be the perfect example of being a GOPER sockpuppet. Has Howard Dean been replaced as DNC Chair? I must have missed that event. Recent events have proven that Dean is far more popular than any other figure in the Democratic party, with the possible exception of Hillary.

The schism in the Democratic party is between the DLC/Hillary GOP Sockpuppets and the Democratic Wing of the Democratic Party. The DLC wants to destroy the Democratic Party and I don't have any major objections to that.

by Gary Boatwright on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 04:02:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Truth Hurts (none / 0)

The DLC wants to destroy the Democratic Party and I don't have any major objections to that.

So you'd like to destroy the democratic party? No surprise there, it's evidence in your incessant trolling. Only a republican mole could do a better job than you. How's Colleen doing?

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 09:22:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Truth Hurts (none / 0)

If the choice is between fascism and destroying the Democratic party, I will choose destroying the Democratic party.

I will not follow the Democratic party down the path of supporting a fascist America. If the Democratic party continues to support The Patriot Act, CAFTA, Bankruptcy Restrictions, Class Action Lawsuit Restrictions, restrictions on a woman's right to make her own medical decisions, giving gun manufacturers immunity from lawsuits and other steps towards a fascist America, you bet I will work for its destruction. What is there that is worth preserving if the party doesn't change course and start opposing Bush's Compassionate Fascism.

If you want to be one of the sheep that follows the DLC over the cliff into fascism, be my guest. I'm not going there.

by Gary Boatwright on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 04:07:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Truth Hurts (none / 0)

Don't use qualifiers now that I caught you red handed with your true intentions. You wish destruction upon the democratic party and admitted it yourself. Be proud of your position -- this was clear to me for a long time now.

I bookmarked this for future citing. Nothing like a troll confession.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sun Aug 07, 2005 at 04:40:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

This Truth Hurts (3.00 / 2)

DLCer are trying to make the case that opposing this war before it started ipso facto makes you weak on National Security and that we should just get in line. No thank you.

Before the war General Shinseki testified before Congress and said that to control Iraq post-war would take "several hundred thousand" troops. We can take that to mean two to three hundred thousand. Which was a polite way of testifying that we couldn't control Iraq at all, because we didn't and won't be able to deploy that many troops at a time.

The Chief of Staff of the Army effectively testified that we could not successfully win the war, and was immediately sidelined. Well he was right, I knew he was right at the time, but the message sailed right over the heads of Congress.

Nobody with a second of military experience doubted we could and would win the maneuver war. But plenty of us knew, some from reading, some from brutal real life experience (I fall in the reader crowd), that urban warfare is inherently brutal, destructive and extraordinarily hard on civilians. You combine that with a military whose prime directive is "force protection" you have just set yourself for a predictable cluster-fuck. I know because people with real knowledge like Steve Gilliard, Kos and Jo Fish predicted it.

I prefer my National Security with a functioning Army, and not one that is just about to abandon its long-standing two-war strategy (the ability to fight and decisively win two wars in two different theatres) for God help us a one-and-half-war strategy. "Just hold them off kid, and we'll be there with reinforcements just as soon as we mop up here".

The DLC is the group that is weak on National Security. Following Bush policies weakened this country in every possible way and its time some pro-war "Liberals" woke up and fully grasped that.

by Bruce Webb on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 04:36:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Spoken like a true Democrat Bruce Webb (none / 0)

Out standing analysis.

urban warfare is inherently brutal, destructive and extraordinarily hard on civilians. You combine that with a military whose prime directive is "force protection" you have just set yourself for a predictable cluster-fuck. I know because people with real knowledge like Steve Gilliard, Kos and Jo Fish predicted it.

I'll have to look Jo Fish up. That's a new name for me. Thanks.

by Gary Boatwright on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 10:36:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Jo Fish is Democratic Veteran (none / 0)

Democratic Veteran He is on vacation this week but he is a former Naval Aviator that has been smacking hard on the Bushwhacker's war since before there even was a war. Take this archive from October 2002, he was way pissed and he was just warming up. OK so help me out here

"We sold Hussein chemical and biological agents back in the 80's under Alzheimers Ron and Poppy Bush in the 80's

When Hussein committed an act of War by killing 37 service men on a Capital Ship of the Line in International waters, we did nothing but punish the Commanding officer, Executive Officer and the OOD for "inadequately protecting" their ship"

You need your daily Jo like you need your daily skippy. I never start out any day without both.

by Bruce Webb on Sun Aug 07, 2005 at 12:41:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Bayh v. Packett, Kos, MyDD? And the Winner is.... (3.00 / 0)

The frame of the discussion should be fighting Democrats vs. so called centrists.

Or better - Paul Hackett, Wes Clark, Kos, MyDD vs. DLC, General Beinart and its corporate donors and the establishment.

Plus, why is boy Bayh "whining" to AP?

Here is a satirical article about it with a lot of truth in it -
"SENATOR BAYH PROPOSES A DEMOCRATIC LEADERSHIP COUNCIL COMMISSION TO FIND OUT WHO CASTRATED DEMOCRATS"

at http://satire.myblogsite.com/blog

by dtlc on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 04:23:47 PM EST

Slap that Weasel! (3.00 / 1)

Time to impose some party discipline. Slap that weasel!

Any time a Democrat who aspires to attain higher office trashes the party, as Evan has done, Democrats need to swarm and sting the offender.

by arfendale on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 04:25:12 PM EST

Koombayah baby! (none / 0)

Koombayah.
by Gary Boatwright on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 04:28:23 PM EST

NO DLC NOMINEE PLEASE!!! (none / 0)

the last thing i want is to nominate somone  right in the middle we need a Kerry like Liberal who can talk more like a Clintion guy anyway a new poll came out today showing the preisdent only getting 38% approval on Iraq this shows people are tired of Bush and his policys the last thing anyone needs is a Ben Nelson kinda guy getting the Nomination people want to see a person with a diffrent view.
Running the Davis, Nelson Klein team in Florida.
by Liberal on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 05:31:07 PM EST

quit trying to be inoffensive (none / 0)

The Dems need an agenda that makes sense and the party needs a passionate, articulate advocate.

But the party should stop trying to win by being inoffensive. This isn't working.

Rrrinnggg... Time to change the government.
by Carl Nyberg on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 05:52:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: quit trying to be inoffensive (none / 0)

That's fer sure.  Hackett called Bush an SOB!  I think that worked very well for him.  I think the numbers were just too stacked against Hackett for him to win no matter what he did.  Maybe if he'd been slightly better organized, we could have gotten to 4000 more of the 32000 Dems who didn't bother to show up on Tuesday.
by ICantBelieve on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 11:15:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: quit trying to be inoffensive (none / 0)

If Hackett weren't an Iraq war vet, do you think he'd have been able to pull off that SOB line?

Also, don't leave out the second half of his statement when he said he'd still die for Bush regardless of what he thought of him personally.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 02:57:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: quit trying to be inoffensive (none / 0)

That would have been his JOB to die for Bush.  I don't see any point in what you've just said.  No, it wouldn't have worked to call Bush an SOB over Iraq if he hadn't been there.  Of course not.  You can always criticize more if you've been there.  What's your point?

Is your point that because Hillary wasn't there, she HAS to take the Republican-lite position she's taking?  Gee, Clark wasn't there and he's not taking that position and he's INFINITELY MORE popular with moderates than Hillary could ever be.  

See, that's the point.  You can't win this battle by moving your positions to look more like a Republican.  Harry Truman said it best:  Give the voters a choice between a Republican and a Republican and they'll choose the Republican every time.

We need someone like Clark, Hackett, Feingold, etc who can SAY our positions and have the moderates be comfortable with them.  Clark can go on Faux News and the sheeple LIKE him.  Hillary can't do that.  They HATE her.  Why would we want to fight that battle just to get someone who is a centrist?

by ICantBelieve on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 03:36:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: quit trying to be inoffensive (none / 0)

Last I checked, democrats shouldn't care about how much republicans hate their candidate. Should they run a candidate the GOP likes? How about Ann Coulter? I take it a liberal candidate will be given the thumbs up by Hannity and O'Reilly?

Hackett wasn't active duty while running for office, therefore he is no longer under oath to die for the president. However, he said that even though he thinks the president is an SOB he'd still die for him because he's the president. Clever nuance, and combined with his credentials as a vet in Bush's war, he can get away with it.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 08:43:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: quit trying to be inoffensive (none / 0)

It's probably a good idea for Democrats to run a candidate that Democrats don't hate. It's definitely a good idea for Democrats to run a fighting Democrat who stands up to GOPERS instead of co-sponsoring their religious agenda. You don't have to be a vet to have sufficient backbone to stand up to theocon thugs.

Of course I understand why Hackett's example of a fighting Democrat is so hard for you to grasp. Your admiration of GOP talking points is blocking your perspective and grasp of reality. Once you extract your head from Dick Cheney's rectal cavity you will be surprised at how fresh the air is in the Democratic party.

by Gary Boatwright on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 11:31:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: quit trying to be inoffensive (none / 0)

Such a drama queen! The Mondale/Dukakis route is not the way to go. Liberal dems have not won the presidency in over a century remember. Moderation is the key -- which is why such candidates are ultimately acceptable to the largest swath of voters. Not fringe candidates who can only pull the base.
http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 08:03:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: quit trying to be inoffensive (none / 0)

Your Mondale/Dukkakis fixation is showing through. That would be another one of your GOPER talking points that is comletely irrelevant to the 2008 election.

I'm curious which candidates a troll considers "fringe." Is Wes Clark a "fringe" candidate? Are you thinking of Sen. Feingold? I'm always interested in how trolls view the human political process.

by Gary Boatwright on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 11:13:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: quit trying to be inoffensive (none / 0)

Clark is a moderate. You know this because you Michael Moore types were accusing him of being a Clinton mole in 2004 and a DLC puppet. I know he's a moderate having served under the man before his interest in politics -- he's an internationalist hawk.

As for trolls, you're the GOP mole as shown by your confession here, proudly declaring your desire for destruction of the democratic party: http://mydd.com/comments/2005/8/5/04426/40545/71/post#here

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sun Aug 07, 2005 at 04:44:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: quit trying to be inoffensive (none / 0)

Clark is not a moderate.  Michael Moore ENDORSED him.  You might want to do some research of actual FACTS rather than base your opinions on what "Michael Moore types accused" someone of.  

You can find Clark's positions from the 04 campaign here:

http://www.clark04.com/issues

by ICantBelieve on Sun Aug 07, 2005 at 01:29:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: quit trying to be inoffensive (none / 0)

Or riiight. Michael Moore is a private citizen who can endorse Mickey Mouse if he wants. Did you see Moore campaigning with Clark? Hell no! No one ever wants to be seen with Moore in public if they want any kind of political future.

Clark is a moderate, quit flip flopping when you liberals were castrating him in 2004 for being a Clinton mole.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 01:06:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: quit trying to be inoffensive (none / 0)

Michael Moore did campaign with Clark.  It's pretty common knowledge, actually.  It came up in one of the primary debates.
by ICantBelieve on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 02:03:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: quit trying to be inoffensive (none / 0)

You might want to read Lakoff's book.  People like Clark and Hackett are capable of moving people toward the Nurturing Family Model and away from the Strict Father Family Model.

Did I EVER say I wanted my candidate liked by the GOP?  There you go again putting words in my mouth.  I said liked by the moderates--the people we need to get to vote Democrat if we're going to win.  You know, those people Hillary thinks she's pandering to, but who she pisses off more and more every time she opens her mouth.

by ICantBelieve on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 12:46:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: quit trying to be inoffensive (none / 0)

When you point out Hillary is hated by the right as a negative for her candidacy, yes, you infer that a better candidate is one that is liked by the right.

"Nurturing Family Model"?? You have got to be kidding me. That is NOT the way to return national security credentials to the dems!

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 08:05:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: quit trying to be inoffensive (none / 0)

Convincing people to switch to framing via the nurturing family model, will, in fact, move people toward trusting the Dems in matters of national security.  It's about changing how they think and frame things inside their head, not about campaigning on a nurturing family.  We'd never actually USE those words.  It's about understanding what's going on in the voters heads.  You really need to read the book before you criticize it.

And, yes, you need some votes from the middle to win.  Hillary won't get them no matter how much she moves her positions to the right.  Why not?  Because all those people are currently functioning under the strict father family model.  They see Dems as weak.  They will continue to see Dems as weak until we reframe and get them to start thinking using the nurturing family model.  You can't change that by moving your positions.  You will only succeed at seeming like a weak republican by changing your positions.

by ICantBelieve on Sun Aug 07, 2005 at 02:05:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: NO DLC NOMINEE PLEASE!!! (3.00 / 2)

Then who?  I like Russ Feingold, but does he have what it takes to stomach 24 months of campaign hell?

I like Wes Clark, and I know he can stomach 24 months of campaign hell.  But his earlier mistakes at campaign fundraising (which caused him to pull out of Iowa during the primaries) concerns me.  Will he have the inner circle that will help when they need to, and handle him when they have to (A mistake that Clark, Dean, and Kerry made)?

Who do you see as a viable candidate that has zero DLC ties?  

by Bill Felmlee on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 05:55:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Feingold is fine with campaign hell (3.00 / 0)

In fact, he's one of the best at it in the country-he has the best TV ads of any politician I've ever seen (super important in a presidential race).  He's a great debator to, and when he talks, he sounds like a "normal person"-maybe because he meets with normal people constantly-he has a "listening session" in every county in his state every year (you know how hard that is?).

Here's his TV ads:

http://www.russfeingold.org/multimedia.php

Note how he defuses such typical Republican attacks as his votes on tax increases (by pointing out how many times he voted for tax cuts, too).

As for Clark, I think he's learned much in the last year or two.  I'm fine with either one (I'm hoping for a Feingold/Clark ticket myself).

by Geotpf on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 06:11:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Feingold is fine with campaign hell (none / 0)

Wow.  I only had time to go through two of the tv advertisements.  Will go through them this weekend/next week when I have a chance.  Many thanks for the link.

You are so right about one thing: he does talk like a normal person, a gift that Bayh just does not have (sorry Bayh supporters).

Will digest this.  Thanks.

btw, are you a constituent of Russ'?  Just curious, because if you are -- your perspective will really count as the season nears.

by Bill Felmlee on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 06:33:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: NO DLC NOMINEE PLEASE!!! (none / 0)

then who? is a very good question  i am not happy with any of the names mentioned yet i just can't see them winning... Feingold is a good man but his Religion and that devorce thing will be used agenst him by Republicans i just can't see this 80% or so Christian Nation voting for him to be president despite everything great  he has done  for this country it is a sad fact. i'm still searching for my candidate beside electablity Feingold would be my choice maybe Clark but i don't think he is inerested and he allready lost once. eh what does Mark Warners record look like?
Running the Davis, Nelson Klein team in Florida.
by Liberal on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 07:13:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Mark Warner (none / 0)

I live in Northern Virginia, and I am a big fan of Mark Warner.  His presidential aspirations do come with controversy; a link is provided.

Although this is a WSJ oped, there is truth to this opinion.  However, what is not stated in the oped is the successful balancing act that Mark Warner demonstrated when dealing with a republican majority in both Virginia houses, and a real fiscal crisis in 2001 and 2002.  

http://www.opinionjournal.com/cc/?id=110007025

by Bill Felmlee on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 08:22:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: NO DLC NOMINEE PLEASE!!! (none / 0)

The majority of Wicsonites are Christians, and a large number of them have voted for Russ.  I don't think his religion is going to that much of issue, especially in the Democratic primaries and caucuses.
by whodat527 on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 09:19:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: NO DLC NOMINEE PLEASE!!! (none / 0)

yeah that is true WI has a high Christian population i hope if he gets the Nomination he can get the same type of turnout Nationwide. i would hope that religion doesn't have anything to do with it but out of 43 presidents we have had they have all been Christians guess that shadow kind of scares me. but hey he did get elected in the least blue of all the blue states by 56-44 while Kerry won 49-49 or somthing like that.
Running the Davis, Nelson Klein team in Florida.
by Liberal on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 09:53:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You know (3.00 / 1)

I'd love to see how well Evan Bayh would do in Indiana with his message if his last name wasn't "Bayh."

I'm so tired of politicians born on 3rd base thinking they just hit a triple.

by DWCG on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 05:47:35 PM EST

Time for Republicans to bend over (3.00 / 0)

Seems to me one of the most effective strategies of the Republican Party and all its parts from radical right to centrist has been their use of victimization -- their victimization, for god's sake!  "We've been on the outs for years, "they whine. "They won't let us pray in schools" and "their media lie about us" and on and on.  

We aren't going to kick these idiot savants out of power by playing victim. There are plenty of people waiting for an effective opposition to do that, waiting to restore a normal foreign policy, waiting to restore economic equilibrium and lost freedoms.

And it seems to me that the opposition, (except the Progressives, who seem to have avoided Severe Democratic Anemia) is playing defensively all the time.  And no, it's not just an image problem. They need to take back the initiative.  Say what they mean.  Do what they mean.  And stop the whiny defensive noises like Bayh's.  I don't support Clark, but I think he's right on that score.

Is there a single Republican in power who would say/admit something like this:  ""We've got a few voices out there who would be a little bit more on the fringe," Bayh said. "Unfortunately, too often they define the entire party."  No.  Republicans present a united front -- unremittingly.  Grover Norquist has been the Republican leader most credited with creating not just coalitions but a single coalition out of a very disparate group of right wingers.  And he meets with them, every Wednesday, in his office.  Keeps the fires burning, the minds focused.  Is the opposition doing that?

The people Bayh dismisses as the fringe of the Democratic Party are the ones with the brains AND the brawn... AND the message.  

by Bean on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 06:23:41 PM EST

Sen. Bayh, hope you will read this. (none / 0)

Unfortunately, Sen. Bayh really hurt himself with his remarks. I kinda liked him, and thought he had that "presidential" quality about him, and would be interested in looking at his candidacy. But, these statements are very poorly thoughtout, and the give the "enemy" fodder to beat up large sections of the democratic party. What he should instead have done was:

  1. explain his support for the Iraq war in clear terms.

  2. layout a platform for what he thinks we should be doing on this "war on terror" front.

  3. and, make a case of persuation (instead of a case of criticism) for why democrats should follow /adopt his approach.

This seems to have been an attempt by Sen. Bayh to catch up to Hillary on the silly "who is more Republican" game of musical chairs.

Hope Sen. Bayh is reading this, and hope he will not make such detrimental statements reg. the party, but instead lays out his own vision and ideas.

Neo

CLICK to Draft Al Gore!
by NeoLiberal on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 06:56:43 PM EST

Sen/Gov. Bayh (none / 0)

I think that the fact that Sen. Bayh was also a governor is very strong plus, IMO.

To me, the combination of the administrative whetting of a Governor and the legislative experience of a Senator makes a Governor+Senator candidate tremendously appealing, provided I agree with his/her policy positions on some critical issues,  and his adherence to some core liberal/progressive values, of course.

Neo

CLICK to Draft Al Gore!
by NeoLiberal on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 07:35:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sen/Gov. Bayh (none / 0)

Bayh is anti-abortion and voted for the Patriot Act and voted for MBNA Biden's bankruptcy bill.

What are the core values you agree with Bayh on?

by Gary Boatwright on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 09:53:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sen/Gov. Bayh (none / 0)

uh, uh...you got two out of three. Bayh is pro-choice.
by blueflorida on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 10:33:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sen/Gov. Bayh (none / 0)

"Anti-abortion"...oh, that's cute. As if pro-choice = pro-abortion. I'm not pro-abortion, I'm pro people making their own personal decisions.
http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 10:59:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sen/Gov. Bayh (3.00 / 0)

I think that "anti-abortion" is a good word.  I think we should use it instead of "pro-choice" or in conjunction with "pro-choice."  I think it's better framing.  

Very few people are "pro-abortion" so let's get rid of the right wing's ability to label "pro-choice" as "pro-abortion" by labelling ourselves as "anti-abortion."

I'm FOR organ donation, but that doesn't mean that I think you should be legally required to donate your organs.  I'm AGAINST abortion, but that doesn't mean that I think you should be legally required to carry a baby to term.

I'm pro-choice/anti-abortion.  Let us start using those terms interchangably and beat the Republicans at their own framing game.

by ICantBelieve on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 11:19:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Pro Freedom Of Choice (none / 0)

That's the frame I've been pushing. When you get right down to it Democrats, with the exception of the DLC and the Blue Dogs, favor giving Americans, including American women, freedom of choice.

Wingnuts and the DLC favor taking away our freedoms and giving them to Tom DeLay.

by Gary Boatwright on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 04:17:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

What if DLC died? Would you be happy then? (3.00 / 0)

You have no idea how absurd your remarks sounds.

If the DLC and Blue Dogs ceased to exist, will your problems go away?  No, of course not.

Moderate/centrist democrats are not the problem.  The conservative wing of the republican party is the problem, and moderate conservatives have bowed to their pressure.

Will I always agree with the DLC?  Of course not!  Will I always agree with Governor Dean?  Of course not!  So does that make me a close, personal friend of Delay and Cheney?  Of course not!

There are many democrats like me: pro-life, catholic, military veteran democrats who would always focus on feeding the poor, taking care of the sick, standing up for the rights of others (including women's rights), and doing everything we can possibly do to avoid a war -- any war -- at all possible costs.  If I thought that anyone -- ANYONE -- at DLC leadership I met last week felt differently, then I would have spent the entire week on MyDD as a critical witness to DLC motives and comments.  

Personal and religious values, freedom of choice, fiscal responsibility, social welfare, diplomacy before blood -- we are all on the same sheet of music, just playing the song a little differently.  What is so awful about that!?

You have assigned blame to an organization that is not the cause of all of our problems.  You may rightfully insist that the DLC is flawed, but to insinuate that the DLC was the catalyst, or an enzyme, that caused this party to fall apart is wrong, and without merit.

We failed because of character.  We anointed Gore without persuading the millions of swing voters.  We chose Kerry because we thought he was the best candidate who could beat Bush; yet we should have chosen a candidate who the democrats and the millions of other potential voters felt most comfortable and secure with.  

Assignment of blame within the democratic party will get us nowhere.  What's next?  If Paul Hackett comes out and says 'you cannot be pro-jobs and anti-business, a balance must be made,' will he suddenly be classified by you as a traiter, another MBNA spokesperson?  

Really, where are you going with this?  The DLC is going to keep on doing what they are doing, whether you or I like it or not.  Are you really calling for the removal of all federally elected democrats who are moderate or centrist?  

by Bill Felmlee on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 05:21:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What if DLC died? Would you be happy then? (none / 0)

Great post, but sadly wasted. Some people cannot be led into the light of rational thought.
http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 08:47:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What if DLC died? Would you be happy then? (none / 0)

Some people can't see the light of rational thought or any other light because they have their head impacted up Ken Mehlman's rectal cavity.
by Gary Boatwright on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 11:40:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What if DLC died? Would you be happy then? (none / 0)

Yawn. You said that already. Not feeling creative today Gary? Oh right, creativity and wit are not your strong suit.
http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 08:07:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What if DLC died? Would you be happy then? (none / 0)

Yes, it is sad.  Gary is clueless, and never seems to be open for differing views about a centrist approach.  That is my opinion, and unfortunately, I may be in the very minority with MyDD on this opinion.

He lives in Orange County, which is very conservative but not nearly as conservative as rural western Colorado or northern Florida.  Yet it seems that he is at the center of the Republican base, a lone white cowboy with a trusty horse and a nickel-plated six shooter.

Unfortunately the horse hasen't been fed properly, and Gary has made too many enemies in town for any ironsmith to sell him some new horse shoes.  Even the horse is getting tired of him.

The pistol he has is well balanced, and a good buy (i.e. his computer and connection to MyDD).  
Regrettably, he has no bullets, no real inclination to go find some bullets, and he may not know what do do with those bullets if ever got some.  He just keeps pulling the trigger over and over with an empty chamber, thinking that this method is just as effective.  

And he really thinks that being a bully-blogger will change our minds in order to wrap us in a warm blanket of Gary dominance.  As though we will heed to his desires.    

by Bill Felmlee on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 04:02:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What if DLC died? Would you be happy then? (none / 0)

Say what you want about Gary... but that's not the problem with your "centrist" approach. The problem with your approach is that you are giving in on positions rather than trying to convince moderates that you share their values. People vote their values--their identity--not based on positions. The tact that the DLC takes is to try, via POSITIONS, to be centrist. That does nothing but move Democrats positions. It does not affect the fact that moderates do not want to vote for Democrats because they're "librul." If you want to win those votes in the middle, which we NEED to do if we want to win elections, then you have to convince those people in the middle that you share their VALUES. You can't do that by appearing Republican-lite. Why would they vote for you, who they see as IMMITATING their values when they can vote for the real thing--Republicans who share their values? The key is to go after the values. Convince them that they share your values. Once we've done that, we can debate amongst ourselves whether your moderate positions vs. Gary's liberal positions are really worth beating each other up over. This is why the liberals don't like the DLC. It's not because the DLC's positions are too centrist. It's because the DLC wrongly thinks that having centrist positions is the way to win moderate voters.
by ICantBelieve on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 04:09:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What if DLC died? Would you be happy then? (none / 0)

I would encourage you to go to dlc.org and review for yourself.  Clearly, you may not agree with many of their viewpoints; I do not agree with all of their viewpoints.  But that's ok.

And I would ask you to again read my above remarks.  We all want the same thing, we really do.  If I felt so different from your views or Gary's, I would never have bothered to participate, share, learn, and argue on MyDD.

by Bill Felmlee on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 04:45:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What if DLC died? Would you be happy then? (none / 0)

OK. I'll check it out. I liked them when they were Bill Clinton. I thought Bill Clinton was honestly a moderate--yeah, he blew with the wind a bit, but stuff like Welfare Reform was real for him. And that's fine. I'm pretty moderate fiscally myself. But now I feel the DLC is just pandering. And that's not fine. However, I may be placing too much of the blame for that on the organization and not enough blame on the people who've joined the organization only to appear more moderate than they are. Does that make sense? The original idea was ok, but it's been corrupted, mainly by people who voted for the IWR because they were too weak to stand up to Bush. Like I said, maybe I shouldn't dump so much of that blame on the DLC.
by ICantBelieve on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 05:17:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What if DLC died? Would you be happy then? (none / 0)

"However, I may be placing too much of the blame for that on the organization and not enough blame on the people who've joined the organization only to appear more moderate than they are. Does that make sense?"

That makes perfect sense, and it is a good viewpoint for me to remember when doing a "reality check" as I consider these candidates for President, etc.

by Bill Felmlee on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 05:37:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What if DLC died? Would you be happy then? (none / 0)

Well Bill Clinton WAS the DLC. He was their chairman when he ran for president. He put them on the map. Ever since his presidency they've been trying to find a role for themselves.

Anyway, Bill was an internationalist hawk, fiscal conservative, and social liberal. My favorite president of all time. Why do you think I especially like Hillary? Because like in 1992 and 1996 it's a two for one deal. You get both. I'd love to see Bill back in the white house as first gentleman.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 08:17:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What if DLC died? Would you be happy then? (none / 0)

And that's just it. Moderates understand the inevitability and necessity for disagreement. Radicals do not. That's why mainstream voters prefer moderates that are more tolerant of different points of view.
http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 08:13:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What if DLC died? Would you be happy then? (none / 0)

Well fringers like them are always in the minority. Mainstream points of view from people like us are a valuable commodity in the liberal blogosphere -- a voice of reason to help counter more radical voices seeking to pull the dems back to a losing strategy of promoting candidates like Mondale and Dukakis.

Anyway, as you and I know, in general election politics history and precedence favors moderates. Considering the last two democrats to receive two terms were internationalist hawks and social liberals, I think we're in safe territory for 2008.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 08:11:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What if DLC died? Would you be happy then? (3.00 / 1)

That would be wonderful! The DLC is not part of the Democratic party. The DLC is a cancerous fundraising group with tentacles into every legitimate Democratic organization. The DLC has become the focal point of corporate corruption in the Democratic Party.

If the DLC continues attacking Democrats the way Will Marshall and Peter Ross Range did last week, I will continue attacking them with gusto. The replacement of all federally elected DLCers and Blue Dogs with genuine Democrats would be fantastic for America and for the Democratic Party.

I hope my position is clear enough for you Bill. Yeah, I despise the DLC with a vengence and will fight them with every breath of my body. In case you missed my earlier comment, I'm taking my party back.

by Gary Boatwright on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 11:39:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What if DLC died? Would you be happy then? (none / 0)

"The DLC is a cancerous fundraising group with tentacles into every legitimate Democratic organization."

So how much money has the DLC given to Presidential and Senatorial candidates in 2000, 2002, and 2004?  I spent a little time on FEC.Gov, I could not seem to find that they spent a dime.  

In fairness to your argument, who have they fundraised for, who have they contributed to, and when did they contribute?  

Now don't shy away from this question...this is your chance to get off WEAK ground!

by Bill Felmlee on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 03:40:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What if DLC died? Would you be happy then? (none / 0)

So how much money has the DLC given to Presidential and Senatorial candidates in 2000, 2002, and 2004?  I spent a little time on FEC.Gov, I could not seem to find that they spent a dime.

That's a very interesting question Bill. I've tried to find records of DLC expenditures and haven't had any luck. I believe the DLC is a 501(c)(4) and their expenditures should be public record. There is no question that the DLC accepts contributions. Since the entire organization is not transparent, I don't know how they spread their corporate grease around. I would be delighted to find out.

Feel free to help me out Bill. Educate me on the philanthropic expenditures of the DLC. Exactly what is the DLC good for besides takiing potshots at real Democrats?

by Gary Boatwright on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 04:05:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What if DLC died? Would you be happy then? (none / 0)

OK.  I already know some of the answer(s) through a conversation I had with a DLC member in Columbus.  That being said, that is not good enough to confidently post a reply to you.

On Monday, I will contact the DLC and ask.  Given that August is a big vacation month, hopefully I will have a solid answer for you by Wednesday.

by Bill Felmlee on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 04:54:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What if DLC died? Would you be happy then? (none / 0)

Ah, I see. You have no idea and haven't done your research, yet have already come to a conclusion. Tinfoil hat on a little tight today?
http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 08:57:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What if DLC died? Would you be happy then? (none / 0)

Gary has already gone on record in support of the destruction of the democratic party in a previous post.

What's hilarious about these fringe accusations about corporate influence is that these people can't name a single democrat that has refused all corporate donations! Thus, their argument has no merit when every republican and democrat partakes in corporate whoring.

Only Nader refuses all corporate money and he's not a democrat.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 08:54:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What if DLC died? Would you be happy then? (none / 0)

This is the problem:  

The DLC is not moderates.  It's panderers.

Give me an honest to goodness moderate over a panderer any day.

Yes, I'd be quite happy if the DLC dropped off the face of the earth.  Then maybe we could get people behind strong Democrats, even if those strong Dems happen to be less liberal than I am.

You DLCers really need to read Lakoff's book because you're missing the whole root of the problem.

People vote for who they are, not their positions.  DLC people are viewed as liberals by the moderates regardless of their positions.  They are viewed as weak because they've given up their liberal positions in order to appease the center.

If you want to appeal to the center, you need to change the way they view you and NOT change your positions.  By changing your positions, you do nothing but further convince them that you are weak.

by ICantBelieve on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 12:50:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What if DLC died? Would you be happy then? (none / 0)

By changing your positions, you do nothing but further convince them that you are weak.

Centrism won Clinton two terms. When was the last liberal to win two terms? Oh right, there hasn't been one in 100 years.

I see you subscribe to the George W Bush worldview: stay the course even when competely wrong. Learning from your mistakes, compromise, and flexibility with changing conditions -- why, that's for sissies!

Again, aside from religious zealotry -- what's the difference between the two bases again?

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 09:04:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What if DLC died? Would you be happy then? (none / 0)

Again, you miss the point.  Hillary has been CHANGING her positions.  You're the one who's been saying that!

It's attempting to appeal to the middle by CHANGING positions that's the problem.  If you're in the middle in the first place, that's fine.

If you CHANGE your position, you appear weak.  And these people in the middle are thinking using the strict father family model.  They don't want weakness.

Get it now?  You keep saying she used to be liberal and now she's a centrist!!!  That's WEAK!  Nobody's going to trust that.  Not the left, not the right, not the middle.

Bill Clinton was good at the centrist thing because he was a centrist--at least that's the way he first appeared in a national light.  That's not what Hillary has done.  She's made it apparent that she will change her positions wildly so long as it's the politically expedient thing to do.  And if I wasn't SURE of that point before this thread, I sure as hell am sure of it now that you've been spewing it for 2 days!

by ICantBelieve on Sun Aug 07, 2005 at 02:11:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What if DLC died? Would you be happy then? (none / 0)

Every politician changes positions. That's the nature of politics. Conditions change. Issues evolve. Particularly senators who often have to give and take on different issues in dozens of bills in order to forward their key agendas.

To believe otherwise is to support the George W Bush "never change stay the course I'm bullheaded" route.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sun Aug 07, 2005 at 04:48:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What if DLC died? Would you be happy then? (none / 0)

It's OK to change positions when conditions change.  It's not OK to change values when the polls indicate you should.  There's a difference.  
by ICantBelieve on Sun Aug 07, 2005 at 01:30:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What if DLC died? Would you be happy then? (none / 0)

Yeah right. Try explaining that to voters. That's called nuance. And every politician does it.
http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 01:08:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What if DLC died? Would you be happy then? (none / 0)

You don't EXPLAIN it to voters.  People who stick to their values don't have to explain anything to voters.  You didn't see Paul Hackett dancing around in front of voters.  People like Paul Hackett can just speak from their hearts and it all makes sense and hangs together.  
by ICantBelieve on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 02:07:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What if DLC died? Would you be happy then? (none / 0)

Oh, and there you go assuming I'm part of the "base."  

It's also quite OK to change your positions as you learn.  Changing them because it's politically expedient, on the other hand, is inexcusable.  

What's the difference?  The difference is in the values you project.  For instance, suppose Paul Hackett realized given new data that his stance on gun control was wrong?  His new position would espouse the same values as his old position.  It would merely be tweaked in the actions he thought were necessary, not in the spirit of those actions.

by ICantBelieve on Sun Aug 07, 2005 at 02:15:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What if DLC died? Would you be happy then? (none / 0)

You're completely hypothesizing about Hackett. You have no idea how he's perform in office because he's never been there. You have no idea how he'll be after 5 or 10 years in politics because he hasn't served one day yet. You don't know how he'd vote because he's never had to. You don't know if he'd keep his word because he didn't win.

Totally irrelevent speculation.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sun Aug 07, 2005 at 04:51:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What if DLC died? Would you be happy then? (none / 0)

Well, I did meet him.  And I did canvas in Clermont county.  
by ICantBelieve on Sun Aug 07, 2005 at 01:31:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What if DLC died? Would you be happy then? (none / 0)

And, one can make a pretty good speculation of Hackett's values and how strongly he holds them based on the fact that he re-upped to go to Iraq.  That's a pretty darn strong statement.

Might politics corrupt him?  I guess it might.  But having a nice cushy job and a happy family didn't cause him to forget about his obligations to his Marine "family."  He left his nice quiet life and put himself in a position to get killed for a war that he didn't believe in, all because of his value system.  

That's what I'm talking about.  Someone with strong values who puts himself (herself) on the line to defend them.  Unless Hillary can find a way to explain her IWR vote ("I was duped" works) she comes off as someone who gives up her values because it's politically expedient.

by ICantBelieve on Sun Aug 07, 2005 at 01:34:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What if DLC died? Would you be happy then? (none / 0)

You base your speculation on him volunteering to go back to Iraq? First of all, in the current war Army personnel, including officers, are so short manned and the deployment cycles so tight that being called to go to Iraq is a certaintly. Hackett "volunteering" is basically him signing up to go even though he'd already have to. The only thing that would have excused him from being recalled/activated is winning public office. In the military that's called being "voluntold".

Second of all, Hackett is a true military patriot. He called the president an SOB but said he'd still die for him. Every true servicemember thinks the same way and takes the same oath. You don't choose which commanders you will follow orders from -- when you're a servicemember you follow the commander in chief, period. This is why you see so many troops who may oppose the war still say they'd gladly serve regardless -- this is why so many believe in what they are doing regardless of how we got there.

This is why Jan 1, 2006 I'm returning to active duty.

Hackett has zero political track record, nobody knows how he'd perform long term.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 01:15:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What if DLC died? Would you be happy then? (none / 0)

I don't have the facts on whether Paul would have been recalled or not.  I heard no one else express what you've said, even though I was in Cincinnati for the election.  If it were true, you'd think his opponents would have used it against him.  They used other things about his service against him, but not that.  In fact, the only person I've heard say anything like that besides you is Rush Limbaugh.  

I know that Wes Clark, Jr, has not been recalled.  Wes Clark Sr. only just turned 60 in December, so wasn't he eligible and not recalled until then as well?  As far as I've heard, only officers in certain positions have been recalled--doctors, nurses, etc.  I don't know that lawyers are being recalled.

Yes, he felt obligated to serve regardless of who the CIC was.  That was my point.  His values are that strong.  That's important.

And, perhaps you're right.  Hackett has no track record in politics.  He could turn out to be a political opportunist who changes his values based on political expediency.  Why take a chance on getting someone like that when you can go with someone like Hillary Clinton and be sure?

by ICantBelieve on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 02:13:54 AM EST
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Re: Sen/Gov. Bayh (none / 0)

Pro-choice except for the so called partial birth abortion bill that limits a woman's right to DNC procedures? I think not. At best Bayh would get a C- for his position on a woman's freedom to make her own medical decisions.
by Gary Boatwright on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 11:15:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]