Clark Lays Out Plan For Iraq

Wes Clark penned a masterful op-ed piece (also diaried by Noel Schutz) for today's Washington Post that details a plan for improving the situation on the ground in Iraq. He outlines Bush's failures -- "diplomatic failure," "too slow in mobilizing Iraqi political action," ill-conceived training for Iraqi forces, and a failure "to win hearts and minds" -- and instead of advocating 'the same, just more' we keep hearing from the liberal hawks, proposes a new dichotomy. I've distilled his suggestions into bullet points below:

  • Form a regional body to help Iraq coordinate with neighboring states on economic and political concerns.
  • Ratchet down the "raw rhetoric" coming from the White House and instead engage and work with Iraq's neighbors.
  • Declaration that permanent U.S. military bases will not be established in Iraq.
  • Abandon the timeline for the Iraqi Constitution.
  • Focus on establishing a compromise Constitution that is acceptable to the Iraqis, Iraq's neighbors, and the U.S.
  • Obtain a "legal mandate from the government" to legitimize American military and civilian assistance.
  • Establishing working governments and judicial systems at both the provincial and local levels.
  • Expedite reconstruction efforts, "especially in those areas along the border and where the insurgency has the greatest potential."
  • Increase training efforts for police forces as well as military, requesting support from "Canada, France and Germany."
  • Request outside "observers and technical assistance" from Iraq's neighbors.
  • Focus on "civic action, small-scale economic development and positive daily interactions" to gain support from the Iraqi street.
  • Recruit 10,000 Arabic-speaking Americans to act as interpreters.
  • Reduce "jihadist infiltration" from other countries "by a combination of outposts, patrols and reaction forces reinforced by high technology."
  • Turn over peacekeeping responsibilities to the Iraqis, shifting American troops to a supporting role that will be gradually "phased out."

Now, you may agree or disagree with Clark on whether or not any of this will work. Personally, I tend to give him the benefit of the doubt because he's had first-hand experience with this sort of thing. But the reason I find this so interesting is that, unlike Biden or Clinton, who may support similar suggestions, Clark did not actively back this war. He has the authority to call the war a failure and a mistake, which he does.

Clark also directly addresses the matter of the administration trumpeting the message of "resolve."

The growing chorus of voices demanding a pullout should seriously alarm the Bush administration, because President Bush and his team are repeating the failure of Vietnam: failing to craft a realistic and effective policy and instead simply demanding that the American people show resolve. Resolve isn't enough to mend a flawed approach -- or to save the lives of our troops. If the administration won't adopt a winning strategy, then the American people will be justified in demanding that it bring our troops home.

This is a unique message among the fight better 2008 Democrats because it's not just fight better. It's fight better... and if you refuse to, then stop fighting. When I hear some of the liberal hawks talk about Iraq, I get the impression that their position is that we should fight until we win, no matter what the cost.

One of the big concerns I keep hearing (especially among the netroots) is that Bush is criticizing "immediate withdrawal" with an eye toward a gradual withdrawal over the next year or so. The GOP will get to have their cake and eat it to, falsely slamming any Democrat who ever supported a timetable as having wanted to cut and run. By calling out Bush on his failure and providing a clear alternative that does not rely on hard and fast dates, Clark is insulating himself from that charge. And by writing that these changes must be done "before it's too late," he's also making it clear that, because of Bush's failings, there will come a point at which withdrawal will be the only sane option left.


Display:


I hope you like... (2.33 / 3)

...being troll-rated, because the Clarkistas around here are vicious and they won't countenance any intimation that he doesn't walk on water.
by craverguy on Fri Aug 26, 2005 at 03:07:07 PM EST

Re: I hope you like... (1.00 / 1)

"I like Clark! Heck, who doesn't?"

I don't.

by craverguy on Fri Aug 26, 2005 at 03:24:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I hope you like... (1.00 / 1)

Right.  We got that already.
by alexm on Fri Aug 26, 2005 at 05:12:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I hope you like... (1.00 / 1)

Apparently, it needed to be said again, or the question wouldn't have been asked.
by craverguy on Fri Aug 26, 2005 at 05:13:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I hope you like... (3.00 / 1)

His numbers are pumped because he has a ton of netroots supports, just like Dean did during his Presidential campaign.

I'm getting sick of these insinuations that Clark's massive amount of netroots support is somehow less than genuine.

by vault5151 on Fri Aug 26, 2005 at 04:32:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Nice try. (none / 0)

The burden of proof is on the accuser, not the accused. This is getting tiring.
by human on Fri Aug 26, 2005 at 11:35:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I hope you like... (none / 0)

No, I think they're just tired of certain people incessantly serving up the same old long-refuted, long-dead, demonstrably false anti-Clark smears. Seriously, it's like arguing with creationists.
by human on Fri Aug 26, 2005 at 11:49:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I hope you like... (none / 0)

And to prove it, alexm troll-rated not only that comment, but every comment I made on this page and one on a different page that didn't have anything to do with this.
by craverguy on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 12:24:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Hey... (1.00 / 1)

direct, clear quoting is not allowed.  What I always find curious is whenever anyone brings up these quotes(or the fundraiser quotes etc), they are always dismissed with the line- "these are old news and have been thoroughly debunked".  Have they, have they really?  I mean factcheck.org used them, seems like an objective source.  Who debunked these quotes, the Clark spin machine?  Valid, relevant and telling, apart from the slant of the received bias.
by Stevo on Fri Aug 26, 2005 at 03:19:47 PM EST

Who debunked them? (1.00 / 1)

Apparently factcheck.org has the ability to, you guessed it, FACT CHECK.

==

RNC's Gillespie Gets It Wrong on Clark and Iraq
He claims Clark's House testimony in 2002 shows he supported military action, but Richard Perle was there and he didn't think so.

January 22, 2004
Modified:January 22, 2004
Summary

Republican National Committee chairman Ed Gillespie has been saying retired Gen. Wesley Clark was really for war in Iraq -- but the record doesn't bear that out.

 "Wesley Clark claims to have always been against the war in Iraq. Y et, testimony he gave to the House Armed Services Committee two weeks before Congress passed the Iraq Congressional Resolution says otherwise," Gillespie writes on the RNC website. Gillespie made similar remarks in a speech  given Jan. 15, saying of Clark 's testimony "There was no stronger case made" for going to war.

But Gillespie gives only selective excerpts of Clark 's testimony to the House Armed Services Committee Sept. 26, 2002 . Actually, Clark repeatedly urged patience and diplomacy, criticized the Bush administration for undercutting "friends and allies" and said "I think it's not time yet to use force against Iraq ."

Don't take our word for it: Pentagon adviser Richard Perle, a strong supporter of  going to war, testified with Clark at the same hearing and said, "I think Gen. Clark doesn't want to see us use military force . . . . The bottom line is he just doesn't want to take action. He wants to wait."

Analysis

Gillespie's attack on Clark is a classic case of ripping quotes out of their full context in order to create a false picture.

Quoting Clark Out of Context

In a speech given Jan. 15 in Little Rock, Arkansas, Gillespie quoted at length from Clark's 2002 testimony:

There's no question that Saddam Hussein is a threat . . . . Saddam Hussein is not only malevolent and violent but he is also to some large degree unpredictable at least to us. I'm sure he has a rationale for what he's doing, but we don't always know it. He does retain his chemical and biological capabilities to some extent and he is, as far as we know, actively pursuing nuclear capabilities, though he doesn't have nuclear warheads yet. If he were to acquire nuclear weapons, I think our friends in the region would face greatly increased risks as would we . . . . The problem of Iraq is not a problem that can be postponed indefinitely, and of course Saddam's current efforts themselves are violations of international law as expressed in the U.N. resolutions.

Then Gillespie said, "There was no stronger case made (for going to war) than that expert testimony, the testimony of General Wesley Clark."

The Rest of the Story

But Clark actually was making a case for waiting, and using strong diplomacy backed by a threat of force, not for going to war.

Here's some of what else Clark said (with emphasis added by FactCheck.org):

I do believe that the United States diplomacy in the United Nations will be strengthened if the Congress can adopt a resolution expressing U.S. determination to act if the United Nations can not act. The use of force must remain a U.S. option under active consideration. Such congressional resolution need not, at this point, authorize the use of force.

. . . . In the near term, time is on our side and we should endeavor to use the United Nations if at all possible. This may require a period of time for inspections . . .

. . . . We have to work this problem in a way to gain worldwide legitimacy and understanding for the concerns that we rightly feel and for our leadership.

. . . .We should not be using force until the personnel, the organizations, the plans that will be required for post conflict Iraq are prepared and ready . . . . We need to be ready because if suddenly Saddam Hussein's government collapses and we don't have everything ready to go, we're going to have chaos in that region.

Clark said any military action should be with the support of NATO allies, and criticized the Bush administration for decisions "which have undercut its friends and allies around the world and given the impression that the United States doesn't respect the opinions of others."

He made a clear distinction between threatening force and using it: "I think it's not time yet to use force against Iraq but it is certainly time to put that card on the table, to turn it face up and to wave it."

Last year, soon after he began his campaign for the White House, Clark stumbled by saying he "probably" would have voted for the war-authorizing resolution that Congress passed soon after his testimony, then amended his words several times. (See our earlier article on that.) But in his House testimony at the time he pushed for patience and dipolmacy, not war.

The yellow light is flashing. We have a problem . . . . but time is on our side in the near term and we should use it.

"He Wants to Wait"

Also testifying at the same hearing was Richard Perle, a Pentagon adviser and leading advocate of the military action that followed.

"What I would like to see us do is go into Iraq (and) liberate the people of Iraq from the scourge of that nightmare regime," Perle said. "I don't believe that time is on our side and I don't believe that this fuzzy notion that the most important thing is building legitimacy . . .  should be the decisive consideration."

And how did Perle summarize Clark's position?

I think General Clark simply doesn't want to see us use military force and he has thrown out as many reasons as he can develop to that but the bottom line is he just doesn't want to take action. He wants to wait.

Sources

Ed Gillespie "Clark's flip-flops on Iraq" Republican National Committee website 16 Jan. 2004.

Ed Gillespie "RNC Chairman Ed Gillespie's Remarks in Little Rock, Ark." Republican National Committee website 15 Jan. 2004

Wesley Clark and Richard Perle, testimony before the House Armed Services Committee 26 Sept. 2002.

by alexm on Fri Aug 26, 2005 at 08:18:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm a Clarkie... (3.00 / 1)

and I don't for a minute believe that he walks on water. He's human, just like everyone else; he's made mistakes in the past, and he'll make mistakes in the future--as will we all. Or are you claiming inerrancy for me, but not for thee?

All that aside, what I don't hear people saying is that the sanctions program had essentially failed; other countries (like Turkey) were buying oil from Iraq under the table. Although his WMD capability was essentially destroyed in Operation DESERT FOX (November 1998), every indication that I saw when I was over there was that he fully intended to acquire himself some WMDs, if he were ever able to do again.

Bottom line: I think we were bound to attack Iraq at some point, no matter who would have been in the White House.

by Arkhangel on Fri Aug 26, 2005 at 03:36:24 PM EST

Masterful Op-ed? (1.00 / 1)

  I respectfully disagree, and would suggest this Op-ed offers little in the way of realism.  My problem with Clark's position is that his three-pronged solution is basically the same one he has offered since the outset.  The lack of pragmatism and/or realistic revision makes me question the practicality of his solutions.

engage and work with Iraq's neighbors

Overally simplistic.  Iran, Syria and Turkey(these are the neighbors) all have their own agendas with varying sects in Iraq and cannot be expected to approach the process with the idea of the "greater good".  Not to mention the fact that Iran is in the process of defying the world community and has no desire to engage America in any diplomatic overture.  This dog won't hunt and that seems obvious.

Increase training efforts for police forces as well as military, requesting support from "Canada, France and Germany."

Again, unrealistic in any meaningful way.  The desire to "internationalize" has been on the table since this war began.  I would suggest, this idea has already been rejected in the starkest terms by the complete silence of these nations.  It is our mess, and it has been made abundantly clear that no international bailout is forthcoming.  Even the UN is tentative, given the history and situation on the ground.  This proposal is not a serious one.

Reduce "jihadist infiltration" from other countries "by a combination of outposts, patrols and reaction forces reinforced by high technology."

Yep, that has been a winner along the Mexico border.  Again simplistic.

Turn over peacekeeping responsibilities to the Iraqis, shifting American troops to a supporting role that will be gradually "phased out."

Rumsfeld speaks to this solution all the time, but even he admits that "Iraqis" are in no position to do this effectively.  If the Iraqis were in this position, then I suggest we wouldn't be in this quagmire.

Obtain a "legal mandate from the government" to legitimize American military

Sounds like an excellent idea, if embolding the insurgents is your goal.  Yes, institutionalize the American presence, that is surely a "hearts and minds" winner.

As to the other points, Clark has the tendency to supplant his argument on some phantom entity that will direct the proper course.  Clark's plan sounds pretty, but it is a doomed approach from the outset because it relies on bad starters.  The only caveat is the exit strategy. But if we take Clark at his word, he would dig in his heels and to enact this strategy probably increase the troop levels.  This is my opinion, sorry if it offends the Clark supporters.  A fluffy, rhetorical dud.

by Stevo on Fri Aug 26, 2005 at 03:40:56 PM EST

Re: Masterful Op-ed? (3.00 / 1)

Well since Clark has done all this before.....cobbled an alliance of disparate goverments, to a successful conclusion, I am more inclined to take what he says rather more seriously than those who do not speak from experience.
by pelican on Fri Aug 26, 2005 at 04:29:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

me too (3.00 / 1)

I'll trust the guy that's done it before.
by vault5151 on Fri Aug 26, 2005 at 04:34:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Apples and Oranges (1.00 / 1)

About the only thing these two enterprises have in common is the use of the term "war".  
by Stevo on Fri Aug 26, 2005 at 04:34:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Colin Powell (3.00 / 1)

It's the old "if you break it, you gotta fix it (or buy it)" doctrine.

But I think the key here is that it IS too late.  Clark's plan, Kerry's vague ruminations - might have worked once upon a time, but it is now too late.  The only rationale left for staying is to prevent civil war, prevent the formation of a theocratic state, or to prevent turning Iraq into a breeding ground for terrorists - and ALL of that is happening right now, so why stay?

We were warned that if we abandoned Vietnam, communism would spread all over the world.  Instead, the USSR has collapsed, China is becoming a capitalist state and Vietnam is our trading partner.  Go figure.

by David in Burbank on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 03:27:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Clarke, didn't lay out a plan. (1.66 / 3)

He just repeated the tired old NeoDem criticisms of Bush's Iraq policy. Is it any wonder the Dem Party can't win?
by Guy on Fri Aug 26, 2005 at 04:02:37 PM EST

There May Be No Solution. (3.00 / 1)

I am not a brain surgeon, and nothing about brain surgery, except that there are some things that they cannot fix. Obviously Clark is an expert in this field, but I have the distinct impression that he cannot restore this patient to health. The way I look at it, 90% of the brain is already gone, thanks to the shoddy work of Bush & Co.
by blues on Fri Aug 26, 2005 at 04:04:00 PM EST

Re: There May Be No Solution. (3.00 / 1)

Don't want to be too demanding, but who is the Democrat who is now saying he wouldn't invade Iran?
by blues on Fri Aug 26, 2005 at 04:09:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "Clark did not ... (3.00 / 1)

Interesting how you cherry-pick 3 brief quotes Clark made before Congress in September 2002 from the several hours of testimony. Even Fox News knows he was never for the Iraq War.
by ArkySue on Fri Aug 26, 2005 at 04:34:05 PM EST

My favorite part of the testimony... (1.00 / 1)

...you've cherrypicked qoutes from, a la Rove/Drudge, is the one from Richard Perle.

He followed Clark's testimony...his entire testimony vs. a nitwit blogger cutting and pasting things in a effort to dishonestly smear a fellow Democrat.

Perle --
"I think General Clark simply doesn't want to see us use military force and he has thrown out as many reasons as he can develop to that but the bottom line is he just doesn't want to take action. He wants to wait."

----

If you have some time, maybe you should fact check before doing the work of the RNC.

----

RNC's Gillespie Gets It Wrong on Clark and Iraq
He claims Clark's House testimony in 2002 shows he supported military action, but Richard Perle was there and he didn't think so.

January 22, 2004
Modified:January 22, 2004
Summary

Republican National Committee chairman Ed Gillespie has been saying retired Gen. Wesley Clark was really for war in Iraq -- but the record doesn't bear that out.

 "Wesley Clark claims to have always been against the war in Iraq. Y et, testimony he gave to the House Armed Services Committee two weeks before Congress passed the Iraq Congressional Resolution says otherwise," Gillespie writes on the RNC website. Gillespie made similar remarks in a speech  given Jan. 15, saying of Clark 's testimony "There was no stronger case made" for going to war.

But Gillespie gives only selective excerpts of Clark 's testimony to the House Armed Services Committee Sept. 26, 2002 . Actually, Clark repeatedly urged patience and diplomacy, criticized the Bush administration for undercutting "friends and allies" and said "I think it's not time yet to use force against Iraq ."

Don't take our word for it: Pentagon adviser Richard Perle, a strong supporter of  going to war, testified with Clark at the same hearing and said, "I think Gen. Clark doesn't want to see us use military force . . . . The bottom line is he just doesn't want to take action. He wants to wait."

Analysis

Gillespie's attack on Clark is a classic case of ripping quotes out of their full context in order to create a false picture.

Quoting Clark Out of Context

In a speech given Jan. 15 in Little Rock, Arkansas, Gillespie quoted at length from Clark's 2002 testimony:

There's no question that Saddam Hussein is a threat . . . . Saddam Hussein is not only malevolent and violent but he is also to some large degree unpredictable at least to us. I'm sure he has a rationale for what he's doing, but we don't always know it. He does retain his chemical and biological capabilities to some extent and he is, as far as we know, actively pursuing nuclear capabilities, though he doesn't have nuclear warheads yet. If he were to acquire nuclear weapons, I think our friends in the region would face greatly increased risks as would we . . . . The problem of Iraq is not a problem that can be postponed indefinitely, and of course Saddam's current efforts themselves are violations of international law as expressed in the U.N. resolutions.

Then Gillespie said, "There was no stronger case made (for going to war) than that expert testimony, the testimony of General Wesley Clark."

The Rest of the Story

But Clark actually was making a case for waiting, and using strong diplomacy backed by a threat of force, not for going to war.

Here's some of what else Clark said (with emphasis added by FactCheck.org):

I do believe that the United States diplomacy in the United Nations will be strengthened if the Congress can adopt a resolution expressing U.S. determination to act if the United Nations can not act. The use of force must remain a U.S. option under active consideration. Such congressional resolution need not, at this point, authorize the use of force.

. . . . In the near term, time is on our side and we should endeavor to use the United Nations if at all possible. This may require a period of time for inspections . . .

. . . . We have to work this problem in a way to gain worldwide legitimacy and understanding for the concerns that we rightly feel and for our leadership.

. . . .We should not be using force until the personnel, the organizations, the plans that will be required for post conflict Iraq are prepared and ready . . . . We need to be ready because if suddenly Saddam Hussein's government collapses and we don't have everything ready to go, we're going to have chaos in that region.

Clark said any military action should be with the support of NATO allies, and criticized the Bush administration for decisions "which have undercut its friends and allies around the world and given the impression that the United States doesn't respect the opinions of others."

He made a clear distinction between threatening force and using it: "I think it's not time yet to use force against Iraq but it is certainly time to put that card on the table, to turn it face up and to wave it."

Last year, soon after he began his campaign for the White House, Clark stumbled by saying he "probably" would have voted for the war-authorizing resolution that Congress passed soon after his testimony, then amended his words several times. (See our earlier article on that.) But in his House testimony at the time he pushed for patience and dipolmacy, not war.

The yellow light is flashing. We have a problem . . . . but time is on our side in the near term and we should use it.

"He Wants to Wait"

Also testifying at the same hearing was Richard Perle, a Pentagon adviser and leading advocate of the military action that followed.

"What I would like to see us do is go into Iraq (and) liberate the people of Iraq from the scourge of that nightmare regime," Perle said. "I don't believe that time is on our side and I don't believe that this fuzzy notion that the most important thing is building legitimacy . . .  should be the decisive consideration."

And how did Perle summarize Clark's position?

I think General Clark simply doesn't want to see us use military force and he has thrown out as many reasons as he can develop to that but the bottom line is he just doesn't want to take action. He wants to wait.

Sources

Ed Gillespie "Clark's flip-flops on Iraq" Republican National Committee website 16 Jan. 2004.

Ed Gillespie "RNC Chairman Ed Gillespie's Remarks in Little Rock, Ark." Republican National Committee website 15 Jan. 2004

Wesley Clark and Richard Perle, testimony before the House Armed Services Committee 26 Sept. 2002.

by alexm on Fri Aug 26, 2005 at 04:46:01 PM EST

Clark did not actively back this war. (3.00 / 1)

HASC Testimony, SEPTEMBER 26, 2002

  [snip]

'...The United States diplomacy in the United Nations will be further strengthened if the Congress can adopt a resolution expressing US determination to act if the United Nations will  not.  The use of force must remain a US option under active consideration. The resolution need not at this point authorize the use of force, but simply agree on the intent to authorize the use of force, if other measures fail.  The more focused the resolution on Iraq and the problem of weapons of mass destruction, the greater its utility in the United Nations.  The more nearly unanimous the resolution, the greater its impact in the diplomatic efforts underway.

- The President and his national security team must deploy imagination, leverage, and patience in crafting UN engagement. In the near term, time is on our side, and we should endeavor to use the UN if at all possible.  This may require a period of time for inspections or even the development of a more intrusive inspection program, if necessary backed by force.  This is foremost an effort to gain world-wide legitimacy for US concerns and possible later action, but it may also impede Saddam's weapons programs and further constrain his freedom of action.  Yes, there is a risk that inspections would fail to provide the evidence of his weapons programs, but the difficulties of dealing with this outcome are more than offset by opportunity to gain allies and support in the campaign against Saddam.

If efforts to resolve the problem by using the United Nations fail, either initially or ultimately, the US should form the broadest possible coalition, including its NATO allies and the North Atlantic Council if possible, to bring force to bear.

Force should not be used until the personnel and organizations to be involved in post-conflict Iraq are identified and readied to assume their responsibilities. This includes requirements for  humanitarian assistance, police and judicial capabilities, emergency medical and reconstruction assistance, and preparations for a transitional governing body and eventual elections, perhaps including a new constitution.   Ideally, international and multinational organizations will participate in the readying of such post-conflict  operations, including the UN, NATO, and other regional and Islamic organizations.

Force should be used as the last resort; after all diplomatic means have been exhausted, unless information indicates that further delay would present an immediate risk to the assembled forces and organizations.  This action should not be categorized as "preemptive."  

Once initiated, any military operation should aim for the most rapid accomplishment of its operational aims and prompt turnover to follow-on organizations and agencies.

If we proceed as outlined above, we may be able to minimize the disruption to the ongoing campaign against Al Qaeda, reduce the impact on friendly governments in the region, and even contribute to the resolution of other regional issues such as the Arab-Israeli conflict, Iranian efforts to develop nuclear capabilities, and Saudi funding for terrorism.  But there are no guarantees.  The war is unpredictable and could be difficult and costly.  And what is at risk in the aftermath is an open-ended American ground commitment in Iraq and an even deeper sense of humiliation in the Arab world, which could intensify our problems in the region and elsewhere...'

______

When asked about his praise for Bush and his credentials as a Democrat, Clark said this at his first candidate debate on September 25, 2003:

'We elected a president we thought was a compassionate conservative. Instead we got neither conservatism or compassion. We got a man who recklessly cut taxes. We got a man who recklessly took us into war with Iraq.

I was never partisan in the military. I served under Democratic presidents, I served under Republican presidents. But as I looked at this country and looked which way we were headed, I knew that I needed to speak out. And when I needed to speak out, there was only party to come to.

I am pro-choice, I am pro-affirmative action, I'm pro-environment, pro-health. I believe the United States should engage with allies. We should be a good player in the international community. And we should use force only as a last resort. That's why I'm proud to be a Democrat.'

http://www.factcheck.org/article97.html

by jen on Fri Aug 26, 2005 at 05:01:54 PM EST

Clark did not back this war! (3.00 / 1)

www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A32440-2005Apr6.html
by TxKat on Fri Aug 26, 2005 at 05:06:01 PM EST

I commented on this over at DailyKos (1.00 / 1)

I don't like this plan.  It's basically the Kerry plan, which is, "We should do what Bush is doing (in general), but because Bush is teh suxors!!!!1! and we are smarter, we will do better."

As Kerry found out, this doesn't convince anybody to vote for you, even if it is accurate.

A Democrat should do one of the following when speaking on Iraq:

  1. Introduce (loudly) one (and only one) specific and semi-outrageous (but in the so-crazy-it-just-might-work sense) plan.  Examples would be "Pull out and replace our forces with UN troops" or "Organize a UN committee to designate seperate homelands/countries for the Sunnis, Shiites, and Kurds to break up Iraq in an organized fashion without violence".
  2. Say we should pull out now.
  3. Say we should pull out soon (for example, the Feingold plan, which has a target (but flexible if needed) date for pull out of all troops).
  4. SHUT THE FUCK UP!

If you want us to remain there, shut up and say nothing.  It's not helpful to yourself or the party to be a defacto cheerleader for Bush's general plan, especially if you then turn around and critisize him in the same breath.
by Geotpf on Fri Aug 26, 2005 at 07:30:34 PM EST

Kerry didn't have a plan (none / 0)

Maybe I missed it. Do you have a link to Kerry's plan? If Kerry had anything as comprehensive as the detailed proposal Clark put together, he managed to hide it very, very well.

Clark's plan is a direct challenge to Bush's do-nothing approach.

Examples would be "Pull out and replace our forces with UN troops" or "Organize a UN committee to designate seperate homelands/countries for the Sunnis, Shiites, and Kurds to break up Iraq in an organized fashion without violence".

Those are two examples that are impossible to achieve. Why not replace our troops with Martians? A UN committee? A UN committee? Don't hold your breath waiting to hear any politician recommend a UN committee.

I like Feingold's plan, because it is simple and easy to understand. I like Clark's plan, because it puts specific, workable proposals on the table that make a mockery of Bush's failure to put forward or accomplish specific goals. Clark's detailed proposal has credibility and depth. The contrast with Bush's stealth reconstruction plan is devastating.

by Gary Boatwright on Fri Aug 26, 2005 at 10:09:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

But it's "electable." (none / 0)

joke.

on the other hand, we do know for a fact that everything Bush has told has been wrong.

by David in Burbank on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 03:14:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

My point is (none / 0)

Summarize Clark's plan in one sentence.  You must also state how it is different from Bush's plan in that sentence.

It can't be done.  You need paragraphs upon paragraphs, and any one sentence executive summary boils down to "Do what Bush is doing but he's an idiot so we can do it better".

Contrast that with: "Pull out the troops by the end of 2006."

One sentence, and it is clearly different than what Bush is doing.

The other two ideas I stated, "Pull out and replace our forces with UN troops" or "Organize a UN committee to designate seperate homelands/countries for the Sunnis, Shiites, and Kurds to break up Iraq in an organized fashion without violence" were merely examples of contrasting plans that clearly were different from Bush's plan and could be stated in one sentence.

by Geotpf on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 11:49:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Oh, one more thing (none / 0)

Maybe Clark's plan is the correct one to do, if we were actually in power.  But it will not win any elections, so it doesn't matter.
by Geotpf on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 11:51:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

More accurately (3.00 / 1)

(and this is why being polite about it just won't work), it would be "do what Gee-Dub says he's doing, but for real."

The administration is full of crap. Until that's been made clear, nothing else works.

Yeah, I'm cynical.
by catastrophile on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 11:54:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: More accurately (none / 0)

Yes, true.  The problem is merely saying that doesn't differentiate us from Bush enough.
by Geotpf on Mon Aug 29, 2005 at 05:20:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Heh, heh . . . (none / 0)

You mean, because the Dems are also full of crap? ;)
Yeah, I'm cynical.
by catastrophile on Mon Aug 29, 2005 at 08:19:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Clark's Words Set Up Hillary's Run (none / 0)

This is a play-action from Clark and HRC. He's coming out about this now so as to have her talking points fall in line with his "expert opinion" in 2008.

Remember that just as Yugoslavia fell into civil war after the exit of Tito, Iraq is more or less having the same growing pains. Both countries were basically drawn up at the Treaty of Versailles without much consideration of who or what was being incorporated into a modern nation.

Clark himself did not have Supreme Command of NATO until the Kosovo episode in 1999. His job effectively was to expel the Serb paramilitaries from Kosovo so that the UN peace-keepers could resume their activities there. The only catch to this story is that he managed to cause a showdown between interloping Russian forces, the British, and the US over the Russians' control of an airfield.

I find no evidence that Clark had any hand in rebuilding Kosovo but Wikipedia notes that Hugh Shelton (then US JCS) and the British Chief of Staff criticized Clark's actions as those of a provocateur with regard to the Russian seizure of the airfield...

If this was Clark being himself, he likely would argue (based on his established career) that non-US forces in the "coalition" should try to maintain border integrity near Syria and Iran. That would deplete the supply line for many of the "insurgents" though it would not ensure the end of political resistance. Nevertheless, the relatively rapid collapse of Yugoslavia in the 1990s doesn't bode well for the US in Iraq. It's perhaps the most ominous sign we could have hoped for.

by risenmessiah on Fri Aug 26, 2005 at 10:00:05 PM EST

Genius (none / 0)

Wow no wonder us Dems can't win a fucking election to save our lives.  We spend our energy attacking our own.  You guys go after Clark despite the fact that he has attempted to lay out a plan.  Despite the fact that up to this point, he has won every straw poll on daily.kos, and mydd.com.  Pure Genius!  Go after Democrats!

At least he is trying.  And yes his plan is different than the DLC's incessant cries for "stay the course, with even more troops!"

In his article, Clark calls for specific diplomatic and military objectives.  Bush has gotten us into a huge mess, whether you like it or not.  Its his mess, but we still have to clean it up.  Immediately withdrawing troops would be an absolute disaster.  It really sucks that we are in this position to begin with.  I cannot fathom the level of incompetence in the Bush Administration, but now that were stuck, we have to do the right thing.  

Also, Clark was not pro-iraq war.  Anyone who has followed his platform knows this.  I had the pleasure of meeting Clark when he was campaigning for Nick Lampson last year.  I can tell you he is a stand up guy with more military experience in his little pinky than the entire republican leadership has in Washington DC.

So keep going after our next best hope for 2008.  See where it gets you.

by agpc on Fri Aug 26, 2005 at 11:34:33 PM EST

I was for the war in Iraq (none / 0)

Until I realized I had been lied to about the threat Iraq posed.

Nobody outside of the administration was capabale of knowing the truth.  We trust our presidents, even when we don't like them or didn't vote for them, to be honset about things like national security and sending troops into harms way.  GW has broken that trust.  Only the Cult of W doesn't see that.

by David in Burbank on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 03:19:52 AM EST

Credibility (3.00 / 1)

Overall, this seems like a good plan, and one which is far more detailed than anything anyone else has produced. That alone makes it worth seriously considering.

One thing that is clear is that Clark is not calling for an immediate withdrawl. And it should also be noted that the blogosphere's favorite new Democrat, Paul Hackett, was also not calling for an immediate withdrawl (in fact, Hackett would have kept us similarly involved as we are now, but with "better" tactics).

What I think is interesting is the number of people on the Left who are supporting immediate (or close to it) withdrawl. In fact, just for suggesting that immediate withdrawl would be the wrong thing to do, I was attacked over at DKos, where Armando called my words "meaningless".

Yet when Clark (or Hackett) says the same thing, they are praised. Hmm.

And that in itself says something. Clark and Hackett -- perhaps because of their military background -- seem to have a level of credibility on this issue that others don't, not even Feingold (and Clark has far more than Hackett).

And I think that translates not only to the audience of the blogosphere, or the Left in general, but to the wider audience of the general public. And that is what makes Clark such a powerful messenger and potential candidate in 2008. He will have a level of credibility that no other Democrat will have.

So is this a sign that Clark is positioning himself or an '08 run? Clearly, his words are going to fall on deaf ears in the White House, so influencing the Bush admin cannot be his reason for writing this piece.

More and more, I'm starting to like this guy.

TAKE BACK OUR PARTY: Democracy Bonds
by LiberalFromPA on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 01:03:31 PM EST

On the hiring of translators (none / 0)

Let's not forget one of the barriers to hiring--the gay ban.  We've lost people already, and god only knows how many people never even try to apply due to the ban.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6824206/

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/05/19/BAGGNCR4QO1.DTL

by torrentprime on Mon Aug 29, 2005 at 05:41:43 PM EST

good (none / 0)

Good story!
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
by kevinliao on Sat Sep 17, 2005 at 11:33:21 PM EST


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