Iraq & Politics

Yesterday, it was "It is Time" to call for withdrawal of Iraq, today Armando says:
But it leaves out an important policy point: to change the Bush Iraq policy requires a change in the politics of Iraq, be it through a change in 2006 or a GOP reaction to political pressure.
A change in the politics of Iraq-- what does that mean? I couldn't disagree more if Armando is saying that Democrats should politicize Iraq as an issue-- over withdrawal. Look, Cindy has never won an election, Paul almost did. If you think Hackett won by calling for a withdrawl, you were not paying attention.

On to Digby. First, I followed the Hackett election pretty close, and the only way I'd support saying that Hackett made Iraq an issue, is that he did it by going to the right of Bush. Hackett appealed to the "now that we are in it, do it right" frame, and put himself under Bush's praise in a TV commercial. On other issues, like gay marriage, Hackett was an all-out libertarian, but on Iraq, he was doing exactly what Digby said:

Right now I think the right political move is to keep the pressure on the Republicans. Make them take ownership of this war, gas prices all the simmering discontent that you can see lurking in all the polls on every issue. Separate ourselves, not with our intellectual superiority (which is a given in any case) but by our energy and our disgust with the status quo.
 Right, and that means the target is not Democrats, or calling for withdrawal by Democrats, but targeting the DC establishment as a whole, under Bush's leadership, which gets to Digby's question:
Will our "shrillness" help or hurt the party? I think the netroots believes it's time to try a message that has a little more heat than lukewarm water. The establishment, still smarting from their seminal loss in 1972, is scared to death of anything that resembles real passion. Far more than a serious division in the party over specific policy, that, I think is the real fault line. What kind of politics --- not policies --- do the Democrats think will win?
Change, running against the status quo... what always wins against an entrenched establishment. But to do that, it's not like you need the entire Democratic party aligned with the effort. Not at all, it just has to be the loudest. A terrible direction, but the loudest right now, and making the WaPo and WSJ stories, is the ones calling for Democrats to demand Bush pull out now. That results in a politicization of this war.

And I would argue that '72 is not the equivalent year in question, but instead, '68. By '68, the country had turned against the war; but also at that time, McCarthy ("I hear America sighing") came out as the face of the Democratic Party, advocating an immediate withdrawal of Vietnam. And we all know what became of that over the next 5 years, both for Vietnam and the Democrats. The politics of Iraq, if we want to both get out and replace the majority, call for not making Iraq a politicized catfight between Democrats and Republicans.



Display:


It's About Leading (3.00 / 2)

We need Democrat Leaders. Not parrots. It's not about anti-war or anti-Bush or anti-Republican. It's about anti-stupid. It's about getting our troops how safely.

Americans are desperate for answers on Iraq. Tell the truth. Articulate a clear vision. Fight for it.

Sitting back and letting the White House sink this country into the abiss is not the answer.

1968 is not comparable. Republicans control the country and they are scared to death that Iraq will drag them down. Bush is a lame duck. He's got nothing to lose. They do. If we do not put pressure on them they will be able to hide like they've been doing.

Democrats need to demand results and they need to articulate a vision. If they continue to hide they will become more and more irrelevent.

America needs leaders NOW. Who are they? Where are they?

Do mothers of the dead and veterans need to form a political Party? Right now if they did I'd be the first to join. Who else is leading on this issue?

America is at a crucial point in it's history. If you're afraid to lead then resign and make way for those of us who will.

Editor
Ohio 2nd Blog
by ignatzmouse on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 11:14:01 AM EST

Re: It's About Leading (none / 0)

Here's a "brick" for you, Kat!

by turnerbroadcasting on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 11:17:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's About Leading (none / 0)

Thanks! I've been really itching for a brick, I'll tell ya.
Editor
Ohio 2nd Blog
by ignatzmouse on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 11:19:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's About Leading (3.00 / 1)

This will take care of you!  


by turnerbroadcasting on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 12:48:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hackett Lost (none / 0)

Concerning Hackett:

I think that it's important to note that Hackett lost. Hackett was dragged kicking and screaming into really talking about Iraq and he was never able to articulate a clear vision beyond training the troops.

The reason why Iraq was such front and center in the race was because that was what everyone was talking about. EVERYONE. Hackett was the only person who was telling the truth about what was going on in Iraq, but he was barely scratching the surface.

When I talked to him two days ago I asked him about how he's now advocating for withdrawl. He told me that it wasn't until after the election that he was finnaly able to sit down and really get a chance to think about it.

It is my opinion that if at the time Hackett had been able to articulate a clear vision on Iraq, something that Democrats, Independants, and Republicans are desperately looking for, he would have won. Instead he got corralled into personal attacks against the President and it becoming the only topic in the media. I don't blame him for any of this...  it's all heat of the moment.

Now we've got a few moments to sit back and reflect. America is looking for leaders. Where are they? What are they saying?

Editor
Ohio 2nd Blog
by ignatzmouse on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 11:33:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Sirota and Iraq (none / 0)

Did you see this:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-sirota/06-senate-candidates-ign_b_6152.html

Quote: "[Brown] has gone further than Casey, and launched a petition on his campaign website, demanding that President Bush bring the troops home....

"The political point for Democrats on all of this is simple: like Brown, Feingold, and other courageous voices in Congress, they need to take the stand now - and now wait until it looks like they are taking a stand just for political convenience."

Right on.

Thoughts?

by My Fedora on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 04:28:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Armstrong Scores two for Two (none / 0)

Hackett is the type of Democrat  that wins National elections.

The slow realization of this fact, dawns upon us a new party, whether or not the establishment likes it. There is simply no other way.

Some have said "republican" lite to describe any move to the right. They don't realize how far to the right places like Vermont really are.. Jerome is right - Hackett moves even farther to the right in certain cases.

In Vermont, for example, town hall meetings decide alot of politics. Dean implicitly accepted them. Its almost as if, in the national space, this right of self determination is supposed to be forfeit to well funded special interests. In reality, where Dean is taking the party - himself already a fiscal conservative - is where it needs to go.

by turnerbroadcasting on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 11:15:44 AM EST

Withdrawal (none / 0)

It's withdrawal, for Christ's sake, not withdrawl.
by Ron Thompson on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 11:20:17 AM EST

Re: Withdrawal (none / 0)

Just because you are a believer, I will corrct it.
by Jerome Armstrong on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 11:26:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The Democrats Problem is not Tactics (3.00 / 3)

The Democrats problem with Iraq is that many of the prominent ones supported it in the first place and they lack the integrity to admit they were wrong to do so, especially given what we know now. Before they can go on to offer a credible alternative to Bush in the war on terror they have to get past this.

By the way, there is a huge differences between now and the Vietnam days. These differences include the fact that now the anti-war forces are very respectful of the troops and there isn't a major liberal cultural revolution underway as there was in the 1960s. Those factors had far more to do with damaging the anti-war forces than did their position on getting out of Vietnam.

by Alvord on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 11:42:30 AM EST

bingo (none / 0)

"The Democrats problem with Iraq is that many of the prominent ones supported it in the first place and they lack the integrity to admit they were wrong to do so, especially given what we know now. Before they can go on to offer a credible alternative to Bush in the war on terror they have to get past this."

yup yup yup.  that is the biggest problem our party leadership faces right now, IMHO.  

Visit us at TexasKAOS, where we're taking Texas back!
by annatopia on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 11:49:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

A key difference between now and then (3.00 / 2)

And what a difference a single word makes.

American Labor Unions Oppose the War:

AFL-CIO Calls for
Rapid Return of U.S. Troops

In a major change of course, the AFL-CIO Convention delegates voted Tuesday afternoon, July 27, 2005, in favor of a resolution calling for a "rapid" return of all U.S. troops from Iraq.

First, the mood of the country has turned against the war far quicker than it did during Vietnam. Anti-war sentiment cannot be stopped or turned back. Instead of fighting it, Democrats need to get in front of it.

Second, change the emphasis from "immediate" withdrawal to "rapid" withdrawal and everything changes.

The key is attacking Bush and demanding some kind of exit strategy. The Powell Doctrine requires an exit strategy before combat operations begin. It is completely justified to demand an exit strategy at this late date.

Quibbling over "immediate", "rapid" or even a "definite" exit strategy misses the point. Demanding some sort of plan and some sort of exit strategy from Bush puts pressure on Bush where it belongs.

As far as Hackett goes, we should also not ignore that Hackett stood behind his statement that Bush is a chickenhawk. I was never one of Hackett's critics. I will support any Democrat who attacks Bush. Why that makes me "far left" is pretty baffling.

Biden, Clinton and Feinstein should be out in front of the parade attacking Bush. If they want to attack from the right, that's their perogative, but they should not be surprised to be attacked by progressives, any more than Democrats who voted for bankruptcy should have been surprised at being attacked.

Biden and the Democrats who voted for bankruptcy were to the right of the WSJ. If liberal hawk Democrats want to position themselves to the right of Hagel and Rep. "Freedom Fries" Jones, they should be ready for some serious heat and be ready to answer some serious questions.

Gen. Clark's guest blogger spot at TPM Cafe should be very interesting. I've been ambivalent about Clark, but not a critic, because he is entitled to be heard and respected. He also is subject to reasonable criticism and sharp questioning. I'm looking forward to the exchange.

by Gary Boatwright on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 11:44:16 AM EST

Re: A key difference between now and then (3.00 / 1)

Attacking Bush is a mistake. Bush is a lightning   rod. Attack the policy and you get all of the benefit with none of the distraction.
Editor
Ohio 2nd Blog
by ignatzmouse on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 11:50:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

why not both? (3.00 / 0)

why not attack both?  bush was supposed to be "smart enough" to surround himself with smarter folks.  and as it turns out not only did bush fuck up by surrounding himself with neocons, but the policies they implemented got us into this quagmire.
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by annatopia on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 11:51:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: why not both? (3.00 / 1)

I think that the OH02 race is a good example. It didn't help Hackett in the race and gave the opposition pundits a handle to attack him. Yes, it won him lots of points in the blogosphere, but alas they weren't voting in huge droves out here.

I think that you can get all of the benefits by attacking policy and Congress and it not turning into a Bush bash fest. It's a distraction from real debate and we have winning points to make. Bash Bush and that is all that it's about. He is a lame duck. Attack him and all you've done is push down the polls for a man who's never running for office ever again.

This is about Republicans. This is about Congress. Focus on the target.

Editor
Ohio 2nd Blog
by ignatzmouse on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 11:57:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

good point (3.00 / 1)

"This is about Republicans. This is about Congress. Focus on the target."

but that would require us actually getting out in front of this issue.

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by annatopia on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 11:59:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Question for Everyone (3.00 / 1)

Democrats win every attack they make on Bush and yet they control nothing nationally. Why?
Editor
Ohio 2nd Blog
by ignatzmouse on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 12:02:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: why not both? (none / 0)

annatopia - because the machine karl rove has set up to perpetuate his 8 year plan for a 40 year republican party is to direct all attacks into a personal attack on bush. opening both channels means diverting your power into rove's machine, powering it up, and making it more effecient.

think for a second, before you strike. the enemy of america is hidden, he is a traitor unable to face the harsh light of public day.

 bush himself , as a person, is a good man and you'd probably like him alot if you knew him. he's not spoiled, or petty, he has a tendency to be a warm, friendly person that likes to hear your side of the story.

then there's a deeper truth:  sure, you can say he's done all of this stuff against the country. I give you that.  But what is the alternative if you take him out, ... Dick Cheney for president?

by turnerbroadcasting on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 12:53:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What have you been smoking? (3.00 / 1)

bush himself , as a person, is a good man and you'd probably like him alot if you knew him. he's not spoiled, or petty, he has a tendency to be a warm, friendly person that likes to hear your side of the story.

Bush is not a good man. There is nothing about the man that I like or admire. He is a spoiled brat from a dysfuntional family. Barbara Bush is a snot.

Bush likes to hear bothy sides of the story? What bizzaro universe are you living in?

by Gary Boatwright on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 01:12:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

once again i'm agreeing with gary (none / 0)

with all due respect to turner, i do not think bush is a good person.  i think he's wholly incapable of empathy and he doesn't give two shits for anyone other than his immediate family and business cronies.

my opinion is based on over a decade of observing the man in politics and living under his rule.

sorry turner i cannot agree with that.

Visit us at TexasKAOS, where we're taking Texas back!
by annatopia on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 05:13:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A key difference between now and then (3.00 / 1)

I think your analysis re: Bush bashing is absolutely correct.  I understand the hatred but its just bad tactics.  Bush should be marginalized in any debate to the greatest extent possible.  Its not about how much you cant stand the guy, its about how we get around him to where we want to be.  He can take 5 wks off and nobody misses him, lets just act like there's nobody in the White House until the 2008 inauguration.  Never refer to Bush, just "Republicans" or "the White House".
by Demo Dan in Dayton on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 12:01:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A key difference between now and then (none / 0)

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

Bush is the most unpopular President in American history. If you can't kick your opponent when he's this far down in the polls, you should get out of politics.

annatopia is absolutely correct. Attack Bush and his politics. Hackett drew a clear distinction between the office and the man. That's the key.

by Gary Boatwright on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 12:06:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A key difference between now and then (3.00 / 1)

By your logic Fahrenheit/911 should have been all it took to kick Bush out of office.

We win every battle against Bush and yet we consistently lose the War.

Here was the comment I made to Hackett after the first debate: You aren't running against George Bush, you're running against Jean Schmidt.

NEWSFLASH TO THE BLOGOSPHERE: Jean Schmidt won.

Editor
Ohio 2nd Blog
by ignatzmouse on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 12:12:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A key difference between now and then (none / 0)

I think what Bush bashing ignores is the mans PERSONAL likability.  He's still the guy folks want to go have a beer with.  People still cut him a lot of slack because of that.  I haven't seen any polls that address the personality issue.  Yes his approval ratings stink but I think many people still like him personally.  Therefore you dont kick him while he's down, you ignore him.
by Demo Dan in Dayton on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 12:44:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A key difference between now and then (none / 0)


I agree, I would love to play golf with him. I have a book called "first off the tee" and in it, is a scorecard from Bush.  He plays fast, he doesn't cheat, and he's got a decent handicap.

On the other hand, Karl Rove would probably ooze from the golf cart, sweat profusely like Rush Limbaugh, smell like wet chicken. He'd likely take 100 strokes to get around the course, and be on his obnoxious cellphone the whole time steering some swift boat action against some obscure candidate in Ohio or somewhere..

New Rules: Never play golf with descendants of Nazis that attack the secret soldiers of america.
You'll never know if they're cheating and they'll be too busy screwing up the country to play anyway.

by turnerbroadcasting on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 12:57:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A key difference between now and then (none / 0)

Bush is the most unpopular President in American history. He is dispicable as a President, a man and a human being. Bush is tarnishing the oval office by his very presence.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

by Gary Boatwright on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 01:14:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A key difference between now and then (3.00 / 1)

No one is arguing with you on that point. The question is: so?

Attacking him doesn't win you elections. How many times do we have to lose to prove the point?

Editor
Ohio 2nd Blog
by ignatzmouse on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 01:20:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A key difference between now and then (none / 0)

Attacking Bush?  Funny, most Blue Dog Democrats suck up to him.

Nope, the Democrats' problem is that they aren't percieved as having spines, or clear, firm stands on ANYTHING.

Remember the mileage the GOP got out of Kerry's "I voted for it before I voted against it" remark?

I knew Kerry was doomed when I heard him say that.  Actually, I figured he was doomed from the start with the old medals-in-the-trash-can pics.  But the GOP didn't even need to use those very much; he did such a good job of shooting himself in the foot.  (Of course, it doesn't help when the press is in the GOP's back pocket.)

by Phoenix Woman on Thu Aug 25, 2005 at 10:08:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

thank you gary (none / 0)

you've been channelling my thoughts during these last two iraq-oriented posts.

i'm just going to give you a 3 and leave it at that.

Visit us at TexasKAOS, where we're taking Texas back!
by annatopia on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 11:50:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A key difference between now and then (3.00 / 1)

Great comment!  Let me add that when you make an attack or a point it's a good idea to always add the word "BECAUSE."  This is how the Right does it.  "Clinton lied BECAUSE that's what liberals do."  "Democrats want you to pay more taxes BECAUSE they like big government."

What I am saying is to tie your attack or point to an underlying ongoing narrative - a deeper long-term ideological principle.  This ties the point to reinforcing Progressive ideals in the mind of the listener.  That drives you toward your longer-term strategic goal, which is advancing Progressive values, and getting back control from the Right.

"Bush screwed up Iraq BECAUSE ... "
"Bush lied BECAUSE ... "

"Bush doesn't have an exit strategy BECAUSE he had a hiden agenda in this invasion, and because it was timed for the last election because Republicans only want power and will say and do anything to keep it."

-- Seeing the Forest
by davej on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 02:57:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: One of your best posts (none / 0)

The distinction between "immediate" and "rapid" or even "planned" is a good one.   Demanding "immediate withdrawal" puts the focus on Democrats and frankly paints us into a corner.  Demanding "rapid" and "planned" keeps the focus on the Republicans.  

Colin Powell was dead right when he warned Bush, "You break it, you own it."  

I'm nauseated by the shape of Iraq that we'll be leaving, either an Islamic Republic or a failed state embroiled in a civil war.

by InigoMontoya on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 10:31:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Jerome you are so right (none / 0)

This is your best stuff yet.  
by Jonathan Schwartz on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 12:21:48 PM EST

On Iraq--stop focusing on what will make Dems Win (3.00 / 4)

That is how we got into this Mess-O-Potamia--Democrats and other Leaders are focusing on What is the politically winning solution ---not on what is the right solution.

Focus on how to make Iraq be stable so that it will be safe for the world.

I dont know what the solution is nor do I expect Senators and Congressmen does.  But what I think should be done is to change guards--that means--BUSH SHOULD FIRE RUMSFELD and his advisors on Iraq Policy and have a Bipartisan Group of Experts without any corporate agenda to find out the best solution for the problem.  Because the present course is not the right course.  If Iraq needs more troops temporaily,so be it.  If we need a timetable then great.

As Bush is here to stay until 2008 and the only way he would act is if his constituents force his hand--then I hope more Republicans will have the courage to speak out and do the right thing.

by jasmine on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 12:28:49 PM EST

exactly!!! (none / 0)

focus on what is right not what is politically expedient.

THANK YOU!

Visit us at TexasKAOS, where we're taking Texas back!
by annatopia on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 12:33:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

jerome (none / 0)

i would really appreciate it if you would go back and read the last comment i left on yesterday's thread.

pardon me for being late to the party (i'm oncall this week) but i'm just not quite done with that thread yet.

Visit us at TexasKAOS, where we're taking Texas back!
by annatopia on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 12:35:25 PM EST

It's bad to be King (none / 0)

I find it hard to swallow the convoluted logic that wingnut Busbag is pushing to justify his war. As I read it King Bushbag is telling us that we must continue to fight and sacrifice american lives to justify the sacrifice of past american lives that were sacrificed for past, past american lives that were sacrificed for....... According to bushbag he has no idea when his war in Iraq will end. I wonder if you asked our soldiers if they are willing to give  up their lives so president Bushbag can justify their deaths by demanding more of their buddies be sacrificed so their lives were not sacrificed in "Vain"? How many more moms should sacrifice thier sons/daughters/husbands to justify the sacrifice of other Moms sons/daughters/husbands in this never ending story? This is akin to the Inca's insatialable need to sacrifice warriors to their gods and we all know what happened to the Incas.
I guess this is an Honorable Cause for those who  consider GW as their American Inca King.
by eddieb on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 12:53:14 PM EST

Two key questions for Democrats (3.00 / 2)

(1.) What is the noble cause we should continue fighting for?

(2.) Hat tip to Digby Kevin Drum's challenge:

Kevin Drum challenges "failure is not an option" Democrats to put up or shut up:
...if you do believe we can win in Iraq, let's hear what you mean by "win" and how you think we can do it, and let's hear it in clear and compelling declarative sentences. "Stay the course" isn't enough. What Bush is doing now obviously isn't working, so what would you do that's significantly different?

Conversely, if you don't believe we can win in Iraq, and you're only suggesting we stay there because you can't stand the thought of "looking weak," then your moral compass needs some serious adjustment."

My mind is not irreversibly made up on this. But no one, neither Democrat nor Republican, has presented a convincing plan for winning in Iraq under the present circumstances. The insurgency is not going to give up, the Army doesn't seem to have any kind of consistent commitment to using counterinsurgency techniques against it, we don't know for sure that they'd work anyway, and let's face it: the track record of major powers beating large-scale overseas insurgencies is close to zero in the past half century. So what's the plan?

Either a timed withdrawal or a rapid withdrawal is what Americans are demanding:

I happen to think a timed withdrawal is probably the best bet left to us, although I admit that I suspect Iraq is going to end up in chaos no matter what we do.

That would be a disaster, but if we can't stop it anyway there's no point in making things worse by staying. For now, that's pretty much where I'm at, and anyone who disagrees really needs to give the chin scratching a rest and tell us clearly and concisely what they'd do differently to turn the tide in this war. Time has run out*.

Instead of criticizing Feingold's plan, every single Democrat should be asking the media what Bush's plan is.

They should also remind the media that Bush still doesn't have a plan for Social Security. Then they should mention that Bush's Energy Bill did not include any provision whatsoever for keeping down gas prices.

Bush doesn't have a plan, because Bush doesn't have a clue. It's time to stop pretending that Bush is a nice guy or that Bush has half a brain.

by Gary Boatwright on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 01:24:44 PM EST

Re: Two key questions for Democrats (none / 0)

OK... so after they say for the thousandth time that it is important that we stay the course in Iraq and how we can't cut and run and betray the Iraqis who are struggling to promote democracy in the region and that the way in Iraq is vital in the global war against terror and that while it is a difficult struggle the men and women in Iraq who died died for a noble cause and the camera points at you and the commentator says: What's your solution for the situation in Iraq? What do you say?

I for one am not defending Bush in any way shape of form. I am saying that he is a lightning rod. That attacks against him do no damage against the underlying structure.

If you can demonstrate one example in which calling Bush a dummy, or an idiot, or a clueless evil scumbag or anything else for that matter has helped us to win a single election, I'd love to see it.

Editor
Ohio 2nd Blog
by ignatzmouse on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 01:45:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

My solution (3.00 / 2)

I would say it's time to re-visit The Congressional War Powers Act and make damn sure that no future President ever puts American troops in harms way without a causus belli.

May, 2002:

Sen. Russell Feingold, the Wisconsin Democrat who recently held hearings on war powers before his Senate Judiciary Subcommittee on the Constitution, responded with a reminder: "If the president does plan to take such action, it is time for the administration to initiate meaningful consultations with Congress over the authority that will be needed to launch such an expansive military campaign, if it should be undertaken at all."

Mr. Feingold made a critical distinction in saying that Congress' "use of force" joint resolution after Sept. 11 was very limited in that it approved only actions clearly responsive to those attacks. Congressional sources say the administration at first sought an open-ended resolution in the nature of the 1964 Gulf of Tonkin resolution that then-President Lyndon Johnson took as a blank check for whatever military action he chose to initiate in Vietnam.

It was to undo this legislative mistake that Congress in 1973 enacted the War Powers Act. It requires regular consultation with Capitol Hill in contemplating military action, written notification within 48 hours of such action and its "estimated scope or duration" and congressional consent through either a declaration of war or "specific statutory authorization." If such approval is not granted in 60 days, the president is supposed to withdraw U.S. forces within 30 days.

I'd say that Congress should immediately start holding hearings about a withdrawal plan under the War Powers Act:

Such language, as Mr. Fein- gold noted in response to the Times story, makes it imperative that unless the administration can establish Iraqi complicity in the events of Sept. 11, the administration will be obliged to go back to Congress for new authorization of any invasion or other assault on that country.

An administration spokesman at Mr. Feingold's earlier hearings, Deputy Assistant Attorney General John Yoo, insisted, however, that the president is not bound by the War Powers Act requiring specific congressional approval because of his constitutional powers as commander in chief.

This issue, which goes to the heart of constitutional government, warrants further discussion here, and will get it.

If you can demonstrate one example in which calling Bush a dummy, or an idiot, or a clueless evil scumbag or anything else for that matter has helped us to win a single election, I'd love to see it.

The 2006 election will be a great test. How many Republcans shun any support or appearances from Bush will be a great test.

There is no reason not to attack both Bush and his policies at the same time. They are complementary and reinforce each other. Why do you want to fight with one hand behind your back?

by Gary Boatwright on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 04:31:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My solution (none / 0)

> I would say it's time to re-visit The
> Congressional War Powers Act

AMEN TO THAT!

> Why do you want to fight with one hand
> behind your back?

Hackett spent %99.99 of his time talking about solutions to problems facing the people of Ohio's 2nd district. Hardball, USA Today, The New York Times, and countless other media outlets reported almost exclusively on his calling the President a Chickenhawk and a son of a bitch.

If you want voters to hear your ideas, talk about them. If you want voters to think of you as nothing more than an angry Bush basher, go ahead and bash Bush.  That's the game that the media plays. They are looking for a hook that will draw eyeballs. They could care less about results or ideas.

Personally, I think that the stuff that Hackett was talking about was really good. Too bad very few people in the national media got a chance to hear it.  

Editor
Ohio 2nd Blog
by ignatzmouse on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 04:40:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Two key questions for Democrats (none / 0)

If you can demonstrate one example in which calling Bush a dummy, or an idiot, or a clueless evil scumbag or anything else for that matter has helped us to win a single election, I'd love to see it.

Can you show us where it hasn't?

Go read some Saul Alinsky.  He always advised that it's easier to fight against a personalized target (Ken Lay) than a faceless entity (Enron).

Better yet, think back to Orwell and 1984.  There's a reason that the folks running Oceania made Emmanuel Goldstein into their archenemy-object:  It's easier to get the proles to work against your enemies (and thus FOR you) if they're fighting a person rather than some abstracted thing like a corporation or even a country.

by Phoenix Woman on Thu Aug 25, 2005 at 10:14:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

It's 1966 not 1968 or 1972 (3.00 / 2)

Look at the casualties to date.  Right now we are right at the level of the end of 1965 (1864 vs, 1863 official or 1864 actual).  By that time the marines were in and Brown and Root had big multi-billion dollar contracts to construct bases for their Texas President.  Oh, BTW, they are doing the same now as a subsidiary of Halliburton.

By 66, the Republicans were just "the opposition" rather than a hard right.  They won votes by being a vote against the LBJ steamroller and had a very good year politically attacking from (mostly) the right but also the left.

What benefitted them was an unease with the situation as is.  And yes, they did get personal about Johnson.

2006 is a congressional midterm not a Presidential election year.  In early 1968 we went through Tet.  That was a major turning point because the casualties went through the roof and no place in Vietnam looked safe and won.  The weekly listing of the names of the dead on the evening news hit 500 in one week and things were never the same again.

Thank God this is not 1968.  The people were out in the streets for a reason.  The genie was out of the bottle and it would be a long time before it was back.

by David Kowalski on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 01:35:23 PM EST

Re: It's 1966 not 1968 or 1972 (none / 0)

What I found odd in Jerome's post was how he blamed McCarthy for the '68 loss. McCarthy was one of the few national Democratic figures advocating withdrawal -- which was one of the reasons his position was isolated -- and he wasn't really all that nice of a guy according to people I know who met him, but in the grand scheme of things, getting out in '68 was indeed the right course of action. Instead, the war hawks in the Democratic party undercut the anti-war movement -- something they did again with McGovern as the presidential candidate in '72 -- and the party lost both elections.

Rather than examine the actual case for war and the situation on the ground, they let ideology and a belief in "looking strong" color their decisions. Which sounds sort of familiar.

by darrelplant on Thu Aug 25, 2005 at 04:25:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It strikes me that (3.00 / 1)

for all the talk about withdrawl dates, reasons why we should stay longer in Iraq or leave sooner; whether the rhetoric of "completing the mission has validity or not, conspicuously missing from all the dialogue are 2 fundamental issues.

One is; "What is the mission exactly and how realistic is it from a pragmatic perspective? (i.e., If the mission is to defeat the insurgents militarily and usher in a unified Iraqi democracy, can such a thing be accomplished at the point of a gun or will civil war be the inevitable result no matter how long we stay there bleeding into the sand?).

And Two; How can we discern whether our presence in Iraq is part of the solution or part of the problem?

Are either of these points being debated anywhere in our public discourse?

If I were advising Dems on strategy, I'd suggest asking these questions of the Bush regime.

"How do you define the mission and explain how it's tactically achievable"?

"What 'metrics' do you use to ascertain that our presence in Iraq is doing more good than harm?

by sbj on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 04:22:17 PM EST

Enough With War as Political Strategy (none / 0)

We should pull the troops out of there.  They never should have been there and they aren't helping matters.  If Democrats are still advocating that we "stay the course" in Iraq, then I am not voting for them.  And anyone stupid enough to believe that is a good working strategy for the Democrats, is really losing it.  Stay the course, means stay with Bush and company.  Those two things are synonymous in Americans' minds.
by steve expat on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 07:04:08 PM EST

Our duty? (none / 0)

If we do pull our troops out, what, then, of Iraq and the Iraqis? After all, we invaded, we destroyed much of their country and its infrastructure. Do we not have an obligation to them?

I actually think it is amazing that so many people on the Left are not thinking about Iraqis and the mess we have made for them.

TAKE BACK OUR PARTY: Democracy Bonds
by LiberalFromPA on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 04:17:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Our duty? (none / 0)

Who, exactly, is going to fulfill our obligation to them? For at least the next year and a half, it's going to be the same administration and congress that went to war there on false pretenses, has spent two-and-a-half years screwing things up there, and has actually managed to make the country less stable than it was before we invaded. They can't even admit that they're not doing anything perfectly. What evidence do you have that the administration is actually going to make conditions in Iraq better?
by darrelplant on Thu Aug 25, 2005 at 04:18:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Sigh... (3.00 / 2)

The politics of Iraq, if we want to both get out and replace the majority, call for not making Iraq a politicized catfight between Democrats and Republicans.

That is ridiculous.  

How can Iraq NOT be part of a politicized catfight, whether or not any of us want it to be?  It's time to wake up and smell the coffee, and that coffee smells like burnt humvees.

Don't get too caught up in historical parallels.  Whoever we nominate has to be able to speak clearly and speak the truth without waffling about this war.  The establishment Dems forever lost that ability when they voted for the authorization, as Kerry (and Rove) have so clearly proven to us.

We don't need to run as defeatists, but we do need to run as realists.  Iraq IS the issue, no matter where or how you come down on it, and it will be even for a year or two after the war is over.

If the beltway Dems want to help the realist Dems, they need to shut up about Iraq instead of continuing to spread misinformation about it the way Biden does.  Iraq is a steaming pile of horseshit, attracting more flies every day.  Some dingdong on sunday morning shows talking for the whole party saying that it was a correct decision does no good for any of us.

by Dumbo on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 06:34:13 AM EST

Re: Sigh... (none / 0)

"Don't get too caught up in historical parallels."

Haha, yea, we wouldn't want to get caught up, while making the same mistakes again.

by Jerome Armstrong on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 09:53:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sigh... (2.50 / 2)

How are we making the same mistakes? Mothers and soldiers returning from Iraq are leading the charge. How is that the same as Vietnam?

Nixon won in 1968 by defeating a candidate who was very vocal against the war in Vietnam.

Lesson: Never say anything critical or constructive about military engagements ever again. Blindly support the Republicans and when they fuck up let them because the deaths of thousands of American military will turn the public against them and Democrarts can reap the rewards.

Did you ever think that people looking back at 1968 might think that the big mistake wasn't McCarthy being so anti war but instead people voting for Richard Nixon?

Editor
Ohio 2nd Blog
by ignatzmouse on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 10:29:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sigh... (none / 0)

It's around 6AM and I just happened to link here so you're probably long gone, but your comment caught my eye and if you do return I've got to tell you that you really should be embarrassed about what your said in your second line. "Nixon won in 1968 by defeating a candidate who was very vocal against the war in Vietnam." Do you have any idea how totaly mistaken that comment is? The analysis for the last 35 years on that race has centered on the fact that HHH came out to late against the war at all. As you should know that he was LBJ's VP and was therefore reticent to come out against a policy that was crafted by an administration of which he was a part. No, there were two candidates strongly against the war. One had been murdered that June. The other's defeat (Gene McCarthy)at the Dem. convention, caused a little ruckus in Chicago you might have heard about.
by greeseyparrot on Thu Aug 25, 2005 at 09:06:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sigh... (none / 0)

I should have entered this statement in italics.

I was trying to paraphrase what was said before. I'm well aware of hoe simplistic the statement is. To be it is patently absurd. I was trying to demonstrate this.

Editor
Ohio 2nd Blog
by ignatzmouse on Thu Aug 25, 2005 at 02:27:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

By the way... (none / 0)

The same groups of Americans who most strongly backed our involvement in Vietnam also just happened to be the same ones who LBJ had forever pissed off by giving civil rights to black people.  They were NEVER coming back to the Democratic Party.
by Phoenix Woman on Thu Aug 25, 2005 at 10:19:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

If Nayone is Interested. . . (none / 0)

I posted a (long) diary entry on why I think Jerrome's analysis is mistaken.
Andy Katz
by Andy Katz on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 11:17:26 AM EST

Um. . . (none / 0)

That should be Anyone not Nanyone.  Hopefully my analysis exceeds my editing skills.
Andy Katz
by Andy Katz on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 11:19:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Nixon in '68 (none / 0)

While Americans had turned against the war by 1968, Nixon didn't run against the war. Rather, he said "I will win this thing for us." He wasn't against the war, but against the way it had been run up to that point.

And I think that is the only thing that will work now. "Withdrawl" must be part of a broader strategy to "win the war", that is, quell the insurgency, fulfill our obligation to Iraqis, and make America safe.

By focusing solely on withdrawl we will lose.

TAKE BACK OUR PARTY: Democracy Bonds
by LiberalFromPA on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 04:14:01 PM EST

Hackett (none / 0)

He issued conditional statements on Iraq.  Either/Or.  Either support the troops and the mission, or get out.  I would have never supported Hackett if he was saying stay the course in any variation.  When one says either support or get out, and one looks at what it takes to support, as Larry Johnson now has, the Or becomes the only option.  There is no winning scenario in this War.  Never was.

Troops home by December 31, 2005.  We got in and Bush declared Mission Accomplished in 43 days, we can get out in 120.  

by repear on Thu Aug 25, 2005 at 11:21:16 AM EST


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