Clark Steps Up on Darfur

General Wesley Clark was the Supreme Commander during a war that I supported: stopping Serbian encroachment, and imminent crimes against humanity, within Kosovo. Now, even as I support a timetable with fixed dates for withdrawal from Iraq, Clark is suggesting another military operation that I would support:

After a series of UN Security Council resolutions on Darfur and a donors conference to boost the African Union Mission there, you could be forgiven for thinking the international community has responded adequately to the crisis. Sadly, this is far from the case. The international community urgently needs to take bold new action.

The truth is, civilians are still targeted in Darfur. The pro-government Janjaweed militias still remain unchecked. Humanitarian access is still restricted along key transit routes and in areas where millions of displaced Sudanese have gathered. Women and girls are still being raped as they leave their camps to collect firewood and forage for food. It's a tragedy.(...)

The UN Security Council, in consultation with the AU, should request and authorize NATO to deploy a multinational "bridging force" to bring the combined force level in Darfur immediately up to 12,000 to 15,000 troops while the African Union prepares and deploys its own forces.

This is not an easy recommendation to make for Darfur, where all multinational organizations have been at pains to keep non-African troops out of Sudan. But the notion that the atrocities in Darfur are solely African problems requiring exclusively African solutions has to be reconsidered. These ongoing offenses are crimes against all humanity. They demand an international response that gives human life priority over diplomatic sensitivities.

Working together, NATO and the AU can save the lives of tens of thousands of innocent civilians. They can demonstrate to outlaw regimes like the government of Sudan that the international community will not tolerate crimes against humanity.

And we must do this now.

Go General Clark! It never ceases to amaze and frustrate me that even though the level of terrorism in Darfur is greater than that in Iraq, Israel, Palestine, Afghanistan, Spain, Britain and the Unites States combined, it is rarely, if ever, mentioned as a high priority component in the global struggle against whatever new name we are using for it this week. If terrorism is defined as violence committed against civilians in order to achieve a political end, then Darfur is by far the region in the world most plagued by terrorism. And the fact remains that despite limited action by the U.N. and the A.U., security is nowhere near adequate there.

In my opinion, Clark is absolutely right to call for NATO action in the region. Further, he does so while expressing a key component of progressive foreign policy:

These ongoing offenses are crimes against all humanity. They demand an international response that gives human life priority over diplomatic sensitivities.
His wording may be a little wonky, but the basic point stands, just as it stood in Kosovo: ongoing or impending crimes against humanity cannot be tolerated. What is taking place in Darfur is not limited to the jurisdiction of any one government or regional organization. When these things occur, it is the responsibility of all of humanity to put an end to them. When possible, it is also our responsibility to prevent them from ever taking place. Clark understands this. As revealed during the Kosovo crisis, many conservatives do not. Many conservative opposed the use of force in Kosovo because it clashed with their vision of the battle of civilizations. As several have said to my face, "why should we stop Christian from killing Muslims?"

Using our military to establish democracy is a painfully long, bloody and uncertain process. As such, it should only be attempted under the most extreme and dire conditions, such as post-WWII, not in elective wars like Iraq. However, with far greater certainty, fewer resources, and less bloodshed, we can use our military and coordinate with our allies to help make certain that people are not denied the most basic right of all: the right to live. We have shown this in Kosovo and East Timor. We can show it again in Darfur, if we have the courage and the will to do so. We failed to do anything in Rwanda, and the devastating consequences will forever be a stain on the Western conscience.

If Clark can articulate a progressive foreign policy in Iraq as well as he has done so in Darfur, he will be a serious contender in 2008 (and I'm not talking in a book, I'm talking on the stump). At the very least, I hope that his fellow Democrats can take his lead and articulate a progressive foreign policy vision that can successfully distinguish between operations such as Kosovo and Iraq (which, admittedly, I think Clark had a difficult time doing in 2003-4), and address very real terrorist threats like Darfur. We can't create democracy with the barrel of a gun, but we can stop crimes against humanity with our allies. Stopping genocide will not only keep the world and the United States safer by creating stability, imporving our international image and strengthening alliances, but it is a moral imperative that we must heed. The children of the Sudan are not born terrorists, but the Janjaweed are making them such. We are obligated to put an end to that.


Display:


I agree (none / 0)

Like Kosovo (where it did happen) and Bosnia (where it effectively didn't), the point for international action has come.

The question is: can the American people be convinced of this, given the shortage in Sudan of both clear "strategic interests" (i.e., Isreal and oil) and white people?

It was no coincidence that the Somalian operation was so short-lived.

But if General Clark can rally Americans around a intervention policy with respect to Darfur, I'll have more respect for both him and the American people.

by arenwin on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 04:56:35 PM EST

Reasons for the Iraq war (none / 0)

OK, this brings up a question I have been wondering about for some time and this seems like a good place to ask:

If the Bush administration had said we were going into Iraq because "ongoing or impending crimes against humanity cannot be tolerated" instead of the reasons that were given, would you then support our effort in Iraq?

Clearly Saddam and his government were guilty of genocide and crimes against humanity, so taking them out would have been every bit as justified as intervening in Kosovo, Darfur, Rwanda, or any similar place (all of which I did, or would, personally support).

And by removing Saddam's government, we have stopped state-sponsored genocide. Yes, Iraqis are still dying, but does anyone think that if we go into Darfur that the terrorists there would just step aside and let us stop the killings unimpeded? Isn't it entirely possible that Kosovo could have turned out the same as Iraq had Milosevic not found an ounce of sense left in his brain, thus precluding the necessity of a full-blown military operation there?

I guess what I am wondering is - is it the war in Iraq itself that people on this site have a problem with, or is it the stated reasons for going to war? Or is it something else entirely?

"Don't get stuck on stupid" - Lt. Gen. Honore
by RepTroll on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 05:11:12 PM EST

Re: Reasons for the Iraq war (3.00 / 1)

Speaking strictly for myself, these are the minimum criteria for humanitarian military intervention I would support.

  1.  Absolute honesty and transparency.  The American people - and, for that matter, the citizens of other counties that are participating, need to be convinced of the need for the operation on its legitimate merits.  (Not told that there's going to be a mushroom cloud in NYC, with a post hoc justification about human rights when the WMDs don't appear.)  If, hearing these legitimate merits, the public doesn't think it's worth the sacrifice - then, even if I would have supported an operation, it shouldn't happen.  It's the role of a leader to convince, not deceive.

  2.  Genuine international consensus.  There are various legitimate ways to establish this.  Ad hoc coalitions (especially fig leaf coaltions) aren't adequate.  Regional cooperation is critical.

  3.  Non-conflation.  The goal should be strictly and clealy humanitarian, and not involve grand plans to reshape the geopolitical configuration of a region (even though an aim like "spreading democracy" which is admirable on the surface).

  4.  Imminent threat of, or ongoing, genocide.  Saddam and his cadre were monsters, and had a history of genocidal behavior.  However, the no-fly zone policy had been curbing the worst of his offenses.  The gassing of the Kurds had stopped.  This ties to the next point...

  5.  Minimum possible means.  If another less interventionist option is available, it should be tried.  Again, contrast a full invasion with the fairly successful no-fly zone policy in Iraq.

  6.  Careful planning, including a post-invasion strategy and an exit strategy.  This one, I think, speaks for itself.

Not one of these criteria were established in Iraq, in my view.
by arenwin on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 05:55:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Reasons for the Iraq war (none / 0)

Excellent post!

General Clark mentioned that President Clinton had a multi-part set of criteria just like what you've shown.  He mentioned this at a Library of Congress panel discussion featuring Sadako Ogata.

by ICantBelieve on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 06:04:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Reasons for the Iraq war (none / 0)

When it comes to stepping into a conflict for humanitarian reasons, I'd say this the closest thing I've ever seen to a comprehensive checklist.

There may have been humanitarian reasons to go into Iraq. But in early 2003, there were other places in the world with far more pressing humanitarian crises that the United States wasn't getting involved in... like Darfur. So to hear humanitarian issues cited in support for the Iraq war, it just sounds so disingenuous (moreso coming from the administration than from war supporters).

by Scott Shields on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 08:42:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

There's not a lot of evidence (none / 0)

that this stuff was still going on post-Desert-Storm, other than in the wake of the rebellion that followed that campaign. It appears that once we'd made it clear to Saddam that we weren't going to turn a blind eye to his atrocities any more, and started bombing Iraq on a regular basis for more than a decade, he had "other priorities."

My personal opposition to the war has less to do with the reasons they gave and more to do with the actual reasons. You know: China, Europe, and peak oil.

Yeah, I'm cynical.
by catastrophile on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 08:13:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Reasons for the Iraq war (none / 0)

At the time of the war, I stated exactly what you asked, and I've been thinking so ever since.  The rationale they gave was bogus.  Saddam Hussein, as my conservative father put it in 2002, is a "paper tiger."  He was no threat to the U.S. or Israel because, though he talked tough and was a bad man, he wasn't a stupid man or an insane man.  He damn well knew that he would lose any confrontation with the U.S.  To maintain his firm grip, he had to talk big on WMDs, but he was no actual threat to anyone.

Because that was the presented rationale for the war, I opposed it.  Had the rationale been humanitarian, I might have favored it.  What really creases me is that as it became increasingly clear the WMDs were not to be found, the Bush administration started talking about Hussein as a brutal dictator who slaughtered his people.  Of course, they could never have used that rationale two years earlier because conservatives would have laughed them out of the room.

I was less angry about going to war over mistaken intelligence than I was about shifting the rationale.  It's a statistical guarantee that intelligence is going to be wrong every once in a while, but we have to trust it or we will meet a bad end.  However, painting it in terms of human suffering when that had little to do with the originally stated motive offended the hell out of me.

Given a legitimate original motive, then, I might have been okay with this war.  Having said that, there are two humongous caveats I want to give.

First, let's be clear: the "diplomacy, "strategy," and "post-war plan" were all horrendously mangled or flat-out non-existent, so in that sense, I had a problem with the war itself.  Regardless of the motive, the execution has been criminally mismanaged.

Second, when we talk about human rights abuses, we need to recognize that there were / are many nations with more serious issues than Iraq.  If we are serious about it, we should have STARTED in the Sudan or in North Korea.  Proof positive to me that this was political: we will not invade North Korea because Kim Jong-Il is a) crazy enough to respond with WMDs and b) likely to counterattack into South Korea.  So what do we do?  Ignore the bigger injustice and stop the easy one.  So even given a humanitarian motive, I would have been suspicious; why start with Iraq when the Sudanese and North Koreans are flat-out begging for help?

In the end, the Neo-Con objective of spreading democracy is an admirable one; hell, Democrats have been pushing for it for years.  But if there is one thing history should teach us, it is this: democracy is not born at gun point.  It is born from within the nation.  Encouraging democracy through trade, aide, and political interaction works; strong-arming democracy by deposing other leaders does not.  We can create stability by installing an autocrat, as we have for years; we cannot create stability by installing a democracy.  Nascent democracies are inherently unstable and, consequently, can only survive with domestic popular support.

by jhupp on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 11:53:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Why Clark has no credibility. (2.33 / 3)

What Are You Talkin' About, Wes?

Democracy Now! Exclusive: Wesley Clark Admits Targeting Civilians In Yugoslavia

Wesley Clark Vigorously Defends the US Army's "School of Assassins"

I have more where these came from, if anyone is interested.

by craverguy on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 05:12:44 PM EST

Re: Why Clark has no credibility. (none / 0)

He did no such thing.  And you know it.
by ICantBelieve on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 06:15:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Clark has no credibility. (none / 0)

Please see my new diary.
by craverguy on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 06:18:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Clark has no credibility. (none / 0)

There you go again.  Pulling up lies and distortions about Clark that have been refuted 1000 times.  Can we PLEASE do something constructive instead?
by ICantBelieve on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 06:20:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Clark has no credibility. (none / 0)

Clark admitted that he targeted civilians.

Clark admitted that he voted for three Republicans.

Clark admitted that he would have voted for the war resolution, then flip-flopped in under a day.

These are not distortions. They are truths. Please use the other thread if you want to try and refute them.

by craverguy on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 06:23:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Clark has no credibility. (none / 0)

You're not getting any comments.  Perhaps people are sick of the same old distortions.

No.  Clark did not admit that he targetted civilians.  He admitted that even though they'd warned people to get out, Milsovec order them to stay, and yes, those people got killed.  Clark practically cries every time he has to talk about it.  Clark tried to minimize civilian casualties and put his career on the line for it.

So what if Clark voted for three Republicans???  

No, Clark did not admit that he would vote for the war resolution.  That was a miscommunication.  He was trying to explain the benefits of "a" resolution when we went to the UN.  This was taken out of context by the reporter.  However, Clark does accept responsibility for having not made himself quite clear enough.

by ICantBelieve on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 06:48:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Clark has no credibility. (none / 0)

Not only did he target civilians, sometimes he did it with depleted uranium shells.

Anyone who voted for Ronald Reagan is automatically disqualified from claiming to be a progressive. A true progressive could never have voted for Star Wars and Reaganomics.

Clark's exact words were, "At the time, I probably would have voted for it, but I think that's too simple a question." No, it's not too simple, General. Would you or would you not have written a blank check for George W. Bush to go to war. Yes or no?

by craverguy on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 06:52:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Clark has no credibility. (none / 0)

No, Clark never "targetted" civilians.  He was investigated by Geneva and nothign was found to be wrong with his actions.  Even Sadoka Ogata said she had no problems with what happened in Kosovo.

No, those were not his exact words.  Those were the words that a reporter quoted him as saying.  It was a miscommunication.  

"Anyone who voted for Regain is automatically disqualified from claiming to be a progressive."  Very open minded of you.  I'd be more likely to say that making a comment like that disqualifies one from being a progressive.

by ICantBelieve on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 06:58:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Clark has no credibility. (none / 0)

If Wesley Clark is progressive, why did he vote for Ronald Reagan?

What's progressive about tax cuts for the rich?

What's progressive about slashing welfare funding?

What's progressive about opposing a woman's right to choose?

What's progressive about hating gays?

What's progressive about blowing billions on Star Wars?

What's progressive about giving Big Business carte blanche to ruin millions of lives for their own profit?

What's progressive about funding right-wing terrorists and the Taliban?

What's progressive about discriminating against blacks and women in job selection?

What's progressive about flooding the jails with black drug-users, while letting the whites off with fines?

What possible progressive rationale could their possibly be for supporting the radical Reaganite agenda not once, but twice? Hmm?

by craverguy on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 07:08:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Clark has no credibility. (none / 0)

No, REAGAN wasn't a progressive.  But if you'd take the time to read Clark's positions on the issues, you'd see that he's progressive on each and every one of those.  

But you don't want to hear it.  You've already made up your mind.  Despite the fact that you've been debunked time and time and time again, you keep bringing up the same old tired crap.

The good news is that nobody is falling for it anymore.

by ICantBelieve on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 08:11:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Clark has no credibility. (none / 0)

If Clark is progressive on those issues, why did he vote for Reagan? If Clark is truly progressive, than Reagan is anathema to everything he believes in.

Of course, we only have Clark's word that he believes in those things, since he never cast a vote in Congress or signed a bill as Governor or even rallied in favor of a progressive candidate.

by craverguy on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 08:13:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Clark has no credibility. (none / 0)

BECAUSE THAT WAS 25 YEARS AGO!!!

And, he voted for Reagan because of the defense budget.  

You don't honestly believe that you're going to convince anyone else not to support Clark with these naive arguments do you?

He worked his ass off for John Kerry and John Edwards.  He endorsed Paul Hackett and did robo calls for him.  He sits on the political compass the same place that Dennis Kucinich does.  He testified in front of congress that the war in Iraq was wrong.  He's on Clinton's Global Initiative team for global climate change.  

General Clark currently serves in leadership roles with a number of non-profit public service organizations, including the Center for Strategic and International Studies (Distinguished Senior Adviser), the Center for American Progress (Trustee), the International Crisis Group (Board Member), City Year Little Rock (Board Chair), the National Endowment for Democracy (Board Member), the United States Institute of Peace (United Nations Task Force Member), and the General Accountability Office (Advisory Board Member).

by ICantBelieve on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 08:22:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Clark has no credibility. (none / 0)

  • Dennis Kucinich never voted Republican in his life and he would be mortally offended to hear you say that.

  • Of course Clark endorsed Kerry. He still wants to be president.

  • My arguments aren't naive. They're actually pretty cynical. I'm telling you that I distrust Clark because the only reason I have to believe his stated positions is his word, which is contradicted by how he votes in presidential elections.

  • If he really only voted for Reagan for that reason, he's dumber than he's supposed to be. You're a real progressive. Would you vote for Reagan because you liked his defense budgets?

by craverguy on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 08:28:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The defense budget? (none / 0)

I hope that wasn't his reason, because a) it's bullshit and b) it's vile.  That's his highest priority?  The defense budget?  He'd countenance the transparent racism and sexism of the Republican Party because of the defense budget?
by Drew on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 08:46:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The defense budget? (none / 0)

He was a military man. And, let me get this straight- anyone who made a mistake 25 years ago when they were young is never to be forgiven by progressives no matter what? I just want make sure I am understanding that we are now not allowing for people to evolve? Of all the criticims leveled, this is perhaps the most dangerous because it means we can never convince anyone of any of our positions because at one point they didn't believe what we believed. On a personal note, I hope you are aren't the same person you were 25 years ago- I know I am not.
by bruh21 on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 09:14:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The defense budget? (3.00 / 1)

Voting for Ronald Reagan wasn't a "mistake." Misspelling a word is a mistake. Voting for Ronald Reagan was an act of evil that helped visit a decade of darkness upon the land.
by craverguy on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 10:02:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The defense budget? (none / 0)

LOL - thank you, you've put a smile on my face for the rest of the evening.  You know, I think you're bordering on insane, and if hyperbole were a lake, you'd have just conjured up an ocean.  But a "3" rating just for the chutspah it takes to call Reagan voters a bunch of evildoers.  ...chuckle...
by arenwin on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 10:33:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The defense budget? (none / 0)

You have a better name for people who voted for bigotry, idiocy, financial irresponsibility, opposition to civil liberties, and support of right-wing terrorists? Twice?
by craverguy on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 10:38:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The defense budget? (none / 0)

I might have called it "misguided."  If quizzed, I doubt most Reagan voters would have endorced "idiocy" and "support of right wing terrorists" as what they thought they were voting for.  Sometimes people buy a bad product.  Twice.  Four times, if you include 2000 and 2004.  Eight times, for those around long enough to elect Nixon.

But as good versus evil seems to be fashionable terminology in the political discourse of today, have as you will.  I still like the image of the decade of darkness.

by arenwin on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 10:48:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Really, dude, (3.00 / 1)

that's like saying that Clinton voters voted for blowjobs.
Yeah, I'm cynical.
by catastrophile on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 10:55:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Really, dude, (none / 0)

Did Clinton publicly announce during the campaign that he would be receiving blowjobs? Did he include a detailed explanation of his stance on blowjobs in his campaign brochure?
by craverguy on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 10:57:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Really, dude, (none / 0)

Now, THAT'S a campaign brochure I'd actually read.  Usually they're too damn boring.  Maybe the Clinton library... hmm.
by arenwin on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 11:00:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It was (none / 0)

abundantly clear that Slick Willy got around. Now could you show me the Reagan campaign document that explicitly laid out his support for "bigotry, idiocy, financial irresponsibility, opposition to civil liberties, and support of right-wing terrorists?"
Yeah, I'm cynical.
by catastrophile on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 11:09:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Let's see. (none / 0)

Ronald Reagan supported canceling affirmative action. That's bigotry, check.

Anyone who listened to Reagan speak could tell that he was either stupid or senile. That's idiocy (in both senses of the word), check.

Reagan announced that he would be cutting taxes and increasing military spending. That's financial irresponsibility, check.

Reagan publicly declared that he supported fascist military regimes across the globe. That's opposition to civil liberties, check.

Reagan further declared that he supported the machinations of right-wing terrorists like the Contras. He kept the financial support secret, but it still counts as support of right-wing terrorists, check.

by craverguy on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 11:15:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I said (none / 0)

"explicitly." See, what you don't seem to be grasping is that the vast majority of people who vote for Reeps don't think of those policies in those terms. So it's ridiculous to say they were voting for those things.
Yeah, I'm cynical.
by catastrophile on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 11:28:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Clark is a Rhodes scholar. (none / 0)

So don't try to sell me on his intellect being as low as the average Republican voter.
by craverguy on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 11:30:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It has (none / 0)

nothing to do with intellect, and everything to do with interest. Most people are not very politically engaged, and vote on personality, if they vote at all. WTF does a soldier care about affirmative action or deficits? Until he's come face to face with the consequences of bad policy, nothing.
Yeah, I'm cynical.
by catastrophile on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 11:36:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The man was 36. (none / 0)

He was an adult, living in America in the age of TV. To not know what he was voting for, he would have had to avoid news coverage, TV and radio commercials, pamphlets, televised debates, and friends and relatives giving him advice on who to vote for.

I find it hard to believe that he could have managed all that and even known who Ronald Reagan was on election day, never mind if he was running and what he was running for.

by craverguy on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 11:42:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The man was 36. (none / 0)

i am 34, and i dont think the same way that i did at 22 when i supported clinton without thinking about how i differed with him. i expect at 45 i will think differently than i do now. as i said below, if you dont allow for change in people over the course of their lives you condemn us to a pretty sad existence.
by bruh21 on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 11:57:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The man was 36. (none / 0)

He last supported the Republican Party in 2001. He was fifty-four. Two years later, he was running for president as a Democrat. At exactly what point in his life did he become old enough that we can hold him accountable for his actions?
by craverguy on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 12:01:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Please. (3.00 / 0)

A military man?  So were Carter, Mondale, and Dukakis.

Young?  He was 36.

Otherwise, I never said he didn't deserve forgiveness, or that he even needed it; I said that his reason was shallow bullshit.

Oh, and twenty-five years ago, I was three.  But even then, I knew better than to support Ronald Reagan.

by Drew on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 10:54:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Please. (none / 0)

i am 34, and what i learned by the time i turned 30 was that i don't know it all. that i am  constantly evolving my views. that life does change, and so do some people. if you are unwilling to accept the possibility of change you condemn yourself to a pretty miserable existence.
by bruh21 on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 11:54:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Please. (none / 0)

My grandfather is seventy-two. He's been a liberal Democrat since before Truman was president. Some people have principles when it comes to their political beliefs.
by craverguy on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 12:03:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Please. (none / 0)

your definition of principles seems to be anyone who remains stagnant since birth and agrees with you. that's not principles, that's consistency. one can have principles, and have them evolve over time. i feel sorry for you that you can't realize that because it makes y our existence one of paranoia.
by bruh21 on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 11:10:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Clark has no credibility. (none / 0)

Not only did he vote for Reagan, Nixon, and Bush I, he also appeared at Republican Party fundraisers as late as 2001 and in 2002, he said, and I quote, "I would have been a Republican if Karl Rove had returned my phone calls."

Read all about it.

by craverguy on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 07:29:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Clark has no credibility. (none / 0)

That was a JOKE.  It's not Clark's fault if you have no sense of humor.
by ICantBelieve on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 08:10:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Clark has no credibility. (none / 0)

"As recently as two years ago, Clark was appearing at Republican fund-raisers."

Was that a joke, too?

by craverguy on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 08:11:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Clark has no credibility. (none / 0)

I don't care.  And I do think it was more than 2 years ago, but I really don't know and I really don't care.  You see, my litmus test for a candidate is whether they share my values and whether I believe they will act in accordance with those values.  Clark passes that with flying colors.  Of course, you wouldn't know that because you see a military uniform, or a vote for a Republican 20 years ago and never see beyond that.  That's very sad for you because you're closing your mind to the best thing that's happened to the word "liberal" in a very long time--you're closing your mind to the idea that liberals have open minds and encourage others to have them as well.

But the fact that you're now admitting that you quoted a joke as if it were serious brings everything you say into doubt, doesn't it?

by ICantBelieve on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 08:14:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Clark has no credibility. (none / 0)

Clark was palling around with conservatives in 2001. That's not twenty years ago, that's three! And how can you so blindly trust in what he claims to believe in, when the only voting record he has is one of support for conservatives?
by craverguy on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 08:18:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Clark has no credibility. (none / 0)

2005-2001 is 4.  Not 3, and not 2 which is what you said.  Give it up.  Nobody but you gives a shit what Republican fundraiser he was at in 2001.  
by ICantBelieve on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 08:23:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Clark has no credibility. (none / 0)

The article was written in 2003, two years after 2001, and I was giving you a direct quote. Hence these: "".

And they should care. Unless the Republican was Lowell Weicker, I doubt any real progressive would raise money for him.

by craverguy on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 08:30:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Clark has no credibility. (none / 0)

So......he appeared at Democratic fundraiser the same year. He was apolitical at the time.

He also voted for Clinton twice, Gore and Kerry. That's 16 consecutive years of voting Democratic.

by pelican on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 09:40:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Clark has no credibility. (none / 0)

Good God, I hope you're not the same person you were 30 years ago. I hope you've aged and grown.

Or, judging from your posts, perhaps you haven't.

by omramzey on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 09:28:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Clark has no credibility. (none / 0)

Thirty years ago, I was a sperm that didn't even exist and an egg deep in my mother's ovaries.
by craverguy on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 09:59:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What is wrong with you? (none / 0)

This isn't about you.  This isn't even really about Clark.  This is about millions of Africans being slaughtered.  Are you actually disputing that?  Get over yourself.  
by Reg NYC on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 09:35:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Do you still have those... (none / 0)

..."Hillary Had Vince Foster Killed" links?

Or how about "Clinton Flew Cocaine Into Arkansas Airport While Governor" stories.

Next to the ones you list these are some of my favorites.

by alexm on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 03:23:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Thanks for posting this Chris (none / 0)

This is another example of why I support Clark.

He's spent his life in service to country and since retirement has consistently been speaking out and taking actions that aren't based on a personal agenda but rather based on working for common good. He doesn't hold back when he sees injustice. He has the heart and soul of a warrior. (And before anyone runs with that statement as he's "pro-war," he has consistently said that having seen war he would NEVER send young men and women to war except as a last, last last resort.)

Just as he was blasted by some for taking the job as commentator on FOX News (which was done so that those who got their "news" from FOX would be exposed to truth), so he will be criticized for this. Either criticized, painted as "crazy" or ignored as Corporate power knows Clark won't "play" their game.

If anyone could build a willing coalition and help these people, Wes Clark is the man. He is respected throughout the world and has the intelligence to pull it off. I sadly don't hold much hope that the thugs running this country now will listen... I hope I'm wrong.

by jen on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 05:49:50 PM EST

Re: Thanks for posting this Chris (none / 0)

"And before anyone runs with that statement as he's 'pro-war,' he has consistently said that having seen war he would NEVER send young men and women to war except as a last, last last resort."

Consistent? Would that be like supporting the Iraq war in several columns and speeches, then opposing it, then announcing that he would have voted for the war resolution, then reversing and saying he would have voted against it?

by craverguy on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 05:56:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thanks for posting this Chris (none / 0)

Wes Clark NEVER supported going into Iraq. Listen to his testimony to the HASC in the fall of 2002. He has repeatedly called it a "strategic blunder" and that it was a war "we did not have to fight."
by ArkySue on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 06:09:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thanks for posting this Chris (none / 0)

Wes Clark DID support the war in Iraq.

His own words.

Tell you what. I'm going to create a new thread just for this discussion.

by craverguy on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 06:11:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thanks for posting this Chris (none / 0)

Check the date.  That article was written AFTER Hussein had fallen.  What did you want him to say?  That we should have wanted to lose?

The POINT of that article is that although we'd had a major military victory, and we should be happy that we didn't lose many soldiers before the fall of Saddam, that the battle was only just beginning.  

And guess what?  Clark was right.

by ICantBelieve on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 06:15:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thanks for posting this Chris (none / 0)

I think people are getting tired of refuting this nonsense.  But, here goes.

General Clark has always been against invading Iraq.  He never said he would have voted for the specific resolution that was passed.  That was a miscommunication between him and a reporter.  He never wrote a single article that was not complete alignment with his views.  His views are/were/always will be:

We didn't need to invade when we did.  We all thought Saddam had WMDs, but we didn't have to invade when we did.  We could afford to put it off and continue to investigate, pressure Hussein, and gain support of our allies.  The day may have come when we had to invade, but that day hadn't come as of March 2003.  If we'd waited, we most probably would have discovered that there were no WMDs and we didn't have to go in.  

General Clark testified to this effect in the fall of 2002.  For his honesty and clear-headed thinking, the Republicans called him a naive kooky general.  In 2005, when Clark testified again, the HASC practically apologized to Clark for not having taken him seriously in 2002:  http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A32440-2005Apr6.html

Cherry-pick Clark's comments all you want.  You're never going to trump the fact that he testified before congress that we didn't need to go to war when we did.

by ICantBelieve on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 06:11:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thanks for posting this Chris (none / 0)

Craverguy - By posting things that are not true, you put me in a position of believing nothing you say. I realize this means nothing to you, but for that reason I have no desire to engage in pointless conversations with you.
by jen on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 06:40:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thanks for posting this Chris (none / 0)

Everything I wrote is true. I have proof here.
by craverguy on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 06:41:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No way (none / 0)

America, as it is presently led, really must not be given another opportunity to use its military.  Too much of it is about oil (even Sudan), private and political interests, and too little about justifiable issues.  We know that. Anyone who's over 21 and has been around since both invasions of Iraq knows that.  And the people who want to keep things that way have made it almost "wacko" to suggest that this is a job for the UN -- perhaps with US forces included, or NGO's, or whatever it takes.  But the we must make this a seriously international undertaking. Don't get me wrong:  we all want to turn the Darfur situation around -- like immediately -- like yesterday! We range from eager to desperate.  But no, N. O.  No more unleashing of the Pentagon in another territory.  No more posturing.  No more lies.  Put a leash on us and hold onto us tightly -- we cannot be trusted.
by Bean on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 06:08:00 PM EST

Re: No way (none / 0)

He said an international effort.

"The UN Security Council, in consultation with the AU, should request and authorize NATO to deploy a multinational "bridging force" to bring the combined force level in Darfur immediately up to 12,000 to 15,000 troops while the African Union prepares and deploys its own forces."

by ICantBelieve on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 06:18:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Enough Witth These Wars (none / 0)

This is getting ridiculous.  This war, that war, but not that other war, most wars are bad, some wars are good, this war is humanitarian, that war is evil, blah, blah, blah...  Give it up with all of these wars for a bit.  
by steve expat on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 07:59:04 PM EST

Have they learnt nothing? (none / 0)

<!-- Minus AutoDato -->
Kosovo was to Iraq what John the Baptist was to Jesus.

It was a war of choice, without the justification of self-defence that would have made it legal under international law as it then stood.  

And it established a precedent for attackers to bypass the Security Council whenever its endorsement  could not be obtained.

In the case of Kosovo, the US and its friends simply made the rules up to suit their purposes - and most liberals approved, I seemed to remember.

Then Bush took advantage of the precedent and made up one or two rules of his own in justifying his invasion of Iraq. And not so many liberals were happy with that.

The pre-Kosovo 'rules' served to avoid this sort of relativism. One might have hoped the Iraq fiasco might have been a salutary lesson. Even the warmonger-in-chief seems reluctant to take his crusade into Africa, despite his people having called Darfur a genocide.

And Blair, ever keen to bomb for Jesus, has been bashful in taking the Cross himself.

A truly dismal thought that, with no end in sight to the Iraqi quagmire (and Iran and North Korea very much not resolved), a Dem 08 hopeful is proposing yet another war of choice devoid of all justification in sense and law.

by johnsmith0903 on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 09:12:40 PM EST

You're joking right. (none / 0)

In the case of Kosovo, the US and its friends simply made the rules up to suit their purposes - and most liberals approved, I seemed to remember.
Then Bush took advantage of the precedent and made up one or two rules of his own in justifying his invasion of Iraq. And not so many liberals were happy with that.

I don't think one person could tabulate the numerous failed U.N. resolutions for intervention to prevent/aid humanitarian crises, and successful resolutions to thwart intervention.  We acted to prevent further genocide that surely would have resulted in the extermination of hundreds of thousands of more Albanians.  Comparing Kosovo to Iraq, is like comparing Rwanda to Cambodia.

And suggesting that there be no intervention in this genocide because it involves troops on the ground is exactly what compromises pacifists credibility.  Hell, even the 101st Airborne had to help integrate Central High for goodness-sake!

by DWCG on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 04:15:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You know what's pissing me off along this thead (3.00 / 6)

This is for all those who keep making these crazy statements comparing Kosovo to Iraq to Dafur. Wasn't the situation in Kosovo about preventing the real threat of a widening genocide and trying to prevent it's spread. Isn't Dafur about the same thing? Do you honestly think that these are the same thing as Iraq where there was no present danger of a genocide occuring? Where is your fucking moral compass? The world sat by and did shit when Rwanda happened.  Almost a million people were killed. If I am understanding the situation correctly, Clark is advocating supporting the local African effort w/ our support and those of organizations like UN. How is this remotely related in your warped minds to Iraq where we went in unilaterally? If you are going to make arguments- make arguments that don't make you appear to equate trying to prevent a genocide with fabricating reasons to go into Iraq. They are not the moral equivalent. Finally, what's also pissing me off is a lot of folks are hijacking this issue of Dafur. SOmething that needs to be in the press more, for their own cult of personality bullshit. We ignore Rwanda- A million people are dead because we did. Before you hijack this conversation about Dafur some point- think about those lives.
by bruh21 on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 09:23:29 PM EST

Re: You know what's pissing me off? (3.00 / 1)

I'm not getting it either bruh21. My biggest problem with Bush's war in Iraq is that it is going to result in a fortress America mentality that makes a cooperative response to situations like Rwanda and Darfur politically untouchable.

The theocons are ruining the idea of humanitarian OOTW. I think that may have been part of their strategy.

by Gary Boatwright on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 03:00:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You know what's pissing me off? (none / 0)

That was a great diary, thanks for linking to it.
by arenwin on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 08:55:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I oppose intervention is all four (none / 0)

Because it is not America's job to intervene in any of these cases.

Why should we tie our national interests and prestige to some bloodbath in the askcrack of nowhere?

People have been butchering people left and right in Darfur since the beginning of time.  Given the history of Darfur, particularly its ties to the Mahdist movement, it might not be the best bees nest in the world to be stirring up during the War on Terror.

If there's proof positive that al-Qaeda is there, I'm all for small operations to fix that.  But a full-scale intervention is the African Union's problem, not ours.

Kosovo: same deal.  If the fucking EU has so little pride that they won't stand up for what is right in their own bakyard, why is it America's problem?

Iraq is so far beyond the pale it's not even funny.  

Rwanada is even worse.  At least Iraq has oil!

Not a single one of those countries is worth the life of so much as one Paris Island grunt.

by jcjcjc on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 08:01:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

good grief (3.00 / 1)

Rwanada is even worse.  At least Iraq has oil!

Not a single one of those countries is worth the life of so much as one Paris Island grunt.

It's not about countries, for god's sakes.  It's about PEOPLE.  Thousands to millions of people who are being or have been slaughtered in places like Rwanda, most of whom did not ask to be in the situation they are/were in, who did nothing to deserve it except be in the wrong spot on the globe, at the wrong time, with the wrong ethnicity.

If you don't care about that, you've got a problem with human compassion worse than most Freepers.  As well as a blindness to what breeds the hatred that leads to horrors like terrorist attacks against civilians.  I can stand for differences of opinion in when we should intervene, but this is garbage:

in the askcrack of nowhere

People are not worth less because they're deep in the developing world.

by arenwin on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 08:52:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: good grief (none / 0)

It's a lot harder to muster the stomach to intervene when the people our fine WASP American soldiers are rescuing from FUCKING genocide are a different color and worship a different god.

"We think you're dirt.  You're not even a nigger."

by DWCG on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 12:40:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Read what I posted (none / 0)

I oppose intervention in all cases.  The difference between Kosove, or Croatia is nil.  It isn't religion.  

The difference, as far as I care to consider, is that US territory ceases thousands of miles away from the Balkans or Iraq or Darfur or Rwanda.

I'm sorry the world sucks.  But, it isn't my job to start appropriating the lives of good young Americans to fix that problem.

It isn't fair to every American soldier who has to go get turned into hamburger fighting over a place that is going to be a hellhole 100 years from now whether we intervene or not.

by jcjcjc on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 02:32:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Read what I posted (none / 0)

i am sort of sick of idealogy masquerading as human emotions. look, are you right about paternalism- totally, does that matter? no. what's at issue here is whether the statement that humanity made after ww ii is going to be true- will it truly be never again, or only never again when people realize there is a price to be paid to the global economy when entire regions of the planet are engaging in genocide. as i say below, now or later, you choose, because either way like with issues such as disease, and even forgetting this real issue, there are other issues such as resource misallocation that affect americans.
by bruh21 on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 02:58:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Global economy? Huh? (none / 0)

So, when the Mongols salted the earth throughout central Asia, that was Halliburton's fault?

When the Turks invaded the Balkans during the 1300s, that was due to pressures from General Dynamics?

When the Japanese attacked Korea in the 1590s, that was the Sony corporation?

The Thrirty Years War was pretty much a feud of North Sea oil rights, or something, I guess.

The Crusades were pretty much the oil lobby's doing.  As was the Reconquista, and the time of the Muslims in Spain.

I'm sorry.  Human beings have been doing this thing long before the rise of modern global capitalism, and will be doing it thousands of years after the decline of global capitalism.

The only thing that will end it is the end of humanity.

The wisest course of action is to build ourselves up as a center of calm amid the great human storm and do our best to do our best for those we can help.

The sort of thing you guys are all talking about is akin to the madness of the French Revolution or something that Trotsky would propose: curing the stupidity of the human race by force of arms!

Not only is this unacceptable, it would backfire.  And, frankly, if there are so many believers, why not just start a well-funded, well-armed international liberal group to go make it happen?!  Why even wait for the US government to do it?

Seeing that the US military can barely handle Iraq, all these other scheduled diversions should just be priceless.

It's madness.  At best you guys are proposing a quixotic quest.  At worst you;re talking about riding a tiger.  Pick your metaphor.  The results range from clumsy to tragic.

by jcjcjc on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 11:24:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You're right (1.00 / 1)

Fuck 'em.

Fuck the blacks, Jews, the Euro Muslims, the Chinese Christians and the rest of those poor bastards.

Not my table.  And oh yea, don't bring up that whole colonialism and slavery thing wrecking their economy and eviscerating their civilization, I'm not responsible for the sins of my father.

by DWCG on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 04:04:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Africans sold those slaves (1.00 / 1)

Fuck that argument.  White men didn't go into the interior of Africa until the 1860s, long after slavery was dead.

Who dragged those folks out to ports along the Nigerian coast?

It wasn't Americans or Europeans.  It was Africans, who were enslaving people years before the white man showed up cash in hand.

That American slavery damaged Africa is to propose that we somehow DID something to cause African slavery.

African slavery was there long before the white man showed his white face.

And to be deadly clear: I don't think it's our job to rescue whites, Christians, or anyone else who isn't our damned problem.

by jcjcjc on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 11:08:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Read what I posted (none / 0)

Say that to her face

E.B., a 40-year-old woman, sits on the floor near a stove, hidden in a house, and does not know what to do with her life. Her 12-year-old son Halim was killed next to her, as they ran together through a courtyard towards a nearby forest. Her husband, Ryza, and her relative, Zejnel, were also killed. "There were over 40 of them, in blue police uniforms," she recounts. "They stood in a group on the hill above our house, shouted something at us and waived. They fired as soon as we got out of the hideout into the courtyard. Halim shouted for me to get away. Then he fell. The bullet hit him in the neck. We did not have time that morning even to dress when they surrounded us, and he was still barefoot, holding his trousers in his hands." She cries inconsolably.

More than 20 women and children were hiding in the cellar of the teacher Sadik Dzemo. Thirty men and four boys closed themselves off in his stable. Most of these men are now dead, as is Dzemo. Twenty-three bodies were found early the next morning on the slope of the hill Kodrie Bebushit, outside the village.

...a visibly distressed 50-year-old S.A. recalls. "Then, one after another, there lay all my relatives.

We didn't lose one, not one, American life stopping this thing under Wes Clark's leadership.

If you can do good. You should.

by westcott on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 02:26:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

No (none / 0)

The only cure for this sort of thing is to build a better model and pray the world follows it by example.

If we're all so sure intervention works, perhaps we should recall Somalia.

How about Lebanon, which righted itself in its own time, not ours.

How about the fine work that was done dealing with Germany after WWI?  That really helped, didn't it?  What did our intervention in that unnecessary war lead to?  I forget.

Vietnam?  Geez.  Isn't it funny that Vietnam is now righting itself WITHOUT military help from the US.  Good thing we sent soldiers there.  That really worked, too.

You can fix the world overnight, and certainly not by force of arms.

by jcjcjc on Wed Aug 24, 2005 at 10:37:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Africa is not America's problem (none / 0)

I am not judging the worth of people.  I am judging that it is only reasonable that you take care of your own damned house and leave others alone.

When people in Africa get tired of the way business is done there, then they will right their own ship.

The pretense of invading every other country to fix their internal problems is no better than doing it in the name of our supposed national interests.

Paternalism isn't a foreign policy any more than yee-haw is.

by jcjcjc on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 02:27:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Africa is not America's problem (none / 0)

if the region destabilizes, as it did in kosvo, then yes it is our problem. it's our problem because the resulting stabilization that results world wide- it's called a global economy. after we pay for it now, or we pay for it later- you choose.
by bruh21 on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 02:54:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I oppose intervention is all four (none / 0)

First of all Darfur is in Sudan.

Secondly, it does have OIL which is the basis of the entire conflict... the oil is in the Darfur region and those in power think that the quickest way of getting to the oil beneath is to kill the people above it.

The large oil reserves in Sudan, which are located almost entirely in the southern third of the country, make it potentially a producer in the Brunei/Colombia range. It is not considered a potential megaproducer on the level of Saudi Arabia or Iraq.2 But, if properly managed, its oil resources could be a godsend to a country as poor as Sudan, where the annual per capita gross domestic product is an estimated U.S. $ 424.

Petroleum exploration in Sudan began in the early 1960s. Activity was originally concentrated offshore in the Red Sea. In 1974, two years after the peace accord that ended the first civil war (1955-72), the Sudanese government granted the Chevron Oil Company (U.S.) large oil concessions in Sudan. Chevron discovered and named the Muglad and Melut basins. It drilled for and found oil near Bentiu town in 1978. The government named the oilfield "Unity." It was located in Block 1, inside Upper Nile province, part of the autonomous Southern Region. Soon after, Chevron discovered the Heglig field, in Block 2. Chevron spent about U.S. $ 1 billion on exploration but never recovered it costs. It suspended activities in southern Sudan in 1984 due to a rebel attack that killed three expatriate oil workers and other security concerns. The French firm Total, which acquired various oil concessions around 1980, also suspended its onshore exploration activities, but retained its rights, including to Block 5, which, at 120,000 square kilometers, is larger than the size of Blocks 1, 2, 4, 5A, and 5B combined.

The Islamist-military government that took power in 1989 was determined to develop Sudan's oil potential. It forced Chevron to sell its concession and sub-divided it into smaller exploration blocks. In 1993 Canadian independent Arakis Energy acquired the portion of Chevron's concession north of the town of Bentiu, namely Blocks 1, 2, and 4. In June 1996, Arakis brought eight wells on stream in the Heglig field, subsequently trucking low levels of crude oil to a small refinery at El Obeid in Northern Kordofan for domestic consumption.

On December 6, 1996, in need of cash for the project, Arakis sold 75 percent of its interest to three other companies, with which it formed a consortium called the Greater Nile Petroleum Operating Corporation (GNPOC), whose value Arakis put at approximately U.S. $ 1 billion. Arakis was to be the operational partner. The three other companies were state-owned: the China National Petroleum Company (CNPC), Petronas Carigali Overseas Sudan Berhad (a subsidiary of Petronas Nasional Berhad, the national petroleum corporation of Malaysia), and Sudan's state-owned oil enterprise Sudapet Limited. They would own 40 percent, 30 percent, and 5 percent of the project, respectively. CNPC and Petronas put up project financing until mid-1998.

Although Arakis had been working proven oilfields in Sudan since 1992, by mid-1998 it had relatively little to show for it. The Sudanese oil industry remained in rudimentary form, producing only for local consumption. The country still imported most of its petroleum needs.

On October 8, 1998, Canada's largest independent oil and gas producer, Talisman Energy Inc.,6 acquired Arakis and Arakis' main asset, the Sudan project. Talisman, with its superior technology and experience, brought major improvements for the benefit of the war-stressed and cash-poor Sudanese government. It took only one year after Talisman joined the consortium to boost development of the Heglig and Unity fields in Blocks 1 and 2, to finish a 1,540-kilometer (1,000-mile) pipeline to the Red Sea, to build a new marine terminal for oil supertankers, and to pump and export the first crude oil from Sudan. This project transformed Sudan from a net hydrocarbon importer into a potential member of the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC), the cartel of oil-exporting countries. In August 1999, the first oil for export earned the Sudanese government U.S. $ 2.2 million in one shot. Much more was to come. Talisman estimated that, over the life of the Heglig and Unity fields alone, the government of Sudan would earn approximately Canadian $ 3 billion to $ 5 billion (more than U.S. $ 2 billion to $ 3 billion), depending on the international price of oil.7

In order to control the production of oil, the unelected government of Jafa'ar Nimeiri (1969-85) adopted a two-pronged strategy, division and displacement of the southern population. It has taken almost two decades and various governments to develop and refine this strategy, but the division and displacement strategy has accomplished what direct military action from the central government alone could never achieve: clear control of certain oil areas in southern Sudan.

The political tactic was to conceal the hand of the government by encouraging government proxies--land-hungry neighbors--to attack the agro-pastoralists of the oilfields. With the population thinned out, the government could erect a "cordon sanitaire" around the producing areas in Blocks 1, 2, 4 and 5A for foreign oil companies to exploit in peace and security--while those who had lived for generations on the land were robbed of their peace, security, homes, animals, crops, families, and often their lives.

This is why no one is doing anything... they don't want the Southerners to claim rights to their lands and the OIL

Besides telling us how to live, think, marry, pray, vote, invest, educate our children and, die, the GOP has done a fine job of getting gov't out of our lives.
by Parker on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 09:06:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I oppose intervention is all four (none / 0)

First of all Darfur is in Sudan.

Yes, I'm aware of that.  The post I was responding to referenced Rwanda ("Rwanda is even worse") as a specific case where intervention was "not worth one Paris Island grunt."  The logic (both the commentator's and mine) extends to Sudan.

Secondly, it does have OIL which is the basis of the entire conflict... the oil is in the Darfur region and those in power think that the quickest way of getting to the oil beneath is to kill the people above it.

That is absolutely irrelevant to whether we should intervene for humanitarian reasons.  Most genocidal conflicts have something to do with access to resources.  Land, diamonds, oil.

by arenwin on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 09:11:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I oppose intervention is all four (none / 0)

(By the way, if you were actually replying to jcjcjc, and I misread the stream of the thread, my apologies.)
by arenwin on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 09:48:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I oppose intervention is all four (none / 0)

yup
Besides telling us how to live, think, marry, pray, vote, invest, educate our children and, die, the GOP has done a fine job of getting gov't out of our lives.
by Parker on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 11:38:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I oppose intervention is all four (none / 0)

That's what I get for violating my rule about not trying to think before 10am and my second highly caffeinated beverage.  ;-)
by arenwin on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 11:45:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I oppose intervention is all four (none / 0)

no harm done...
Besides telling us how to live, think, marry, pray, vote, invest, educate our children and, die, the GOP has done a fine job of getting gov't out of our lives.
by Parker on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 11:57:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Parker? Buy an African history book (none / 0)

Darfur ain't about oil.
by jcjcjc on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 02:11:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Parker? Buy an African history book (none / 0)

Of course it is about OIL... or can you not read my post?
Besides telling us how to live, think, marry, pray, vote, invest, educate our children and, die, the GOP has done a fine job of getting gov't out of our lives.
by Parker on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 02:47:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Parker? Buy an African history book (none / 0)

Did you get that history book read already?

Goddamn!

So, you're telling me that the Mahdist movement, which predates the discovery of oil in the Sudan emerged from the oil industry?

That the Christian-Muslim divide throughout the Sahel -- which predates any particular industrial use for oil altogether -- is a product of the oil industry?

No dice.

by jcjcjc on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 11:15:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Craverguy is weak (none / 0)

Your facts are wrong; your analysis flawed and your conclusions unsupported.  Taking a stand on Darfur is the morally right and American thing to do.  There is no better cause for war than the liberation of our fellow man from tyranny and rape.

Reading you posts is like watching a dog chase its tail.

by LikewiseThrilled on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 10:29:28 PM EST

LikewiseThrilled is rude. (none / 0)

And unspecific, too.
by craverguy on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 10:30:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What about the practicalities? (3.00 / 1)

Putting the legal issues aside for a moment, having listened to Clark's piece on NPR, I'm far from convinced that that the proposed intervention has been thought through.

So far as I can see, the African Union's only military operations to date (apart from in Darfur) have been been a peacekeeping mission in Burundi. Politically as well as militarily, its potential to act effectively in a peacemaking role would seem to be questionable.

For instance, the role of South Africa would be crucial in mobilising the necessary AU resources. Yet, in keeping with RSA foreign policy generally in its own continent, Mbeki has been sitting on his hands. I'd suspect that, of all AU nations, the RSA has most of the right troops for the job. How many does Clark suppose Mbeki would send to Darfur as part of his proposed AU effort?

On the other hand, Clark blithely refers to his proposed NATO contingent as a "bridging force". Having already described the proposed AU troop level of 12,000 (for next year) with the word possibly.

What sort of bridging is that?

He seems to know where he would put the 12,000 NATO forces, which implies he's privy to some detailed military planning. Contrast his definite views on the order of battle with his vagueness about how and when the bridging force is to be relieved by the AU!

A hint lack of seriousness comes with his breezy assurance that

These ongoing offenses are crimes against all humanity. They demand an international response that gives human life priority over diplomatic sensitivities.

He talks about it as if we're talking about a stiff note about a breach of protocol. Whereas I'd be planning for something a little more strenuous from the Sudanese!

As if not content with this, he's pleased to write a blank cheque which could have come from Bush himself in a PNAC frame of (I laughingly call) mind:

They can demonstrate to outlaw regimes like the government of Sudan that the international community will not tolerate crimes against humanity.

Just like the Iraq invasion really had the world's dictators quaking about forging ahead with their nuclear programs!

And how international would that NATO force be? None of his major European allies - including Blair - have shown any eagerness to contribute to such a force, that I have noticed.

Is this three minute radio address going to be Clark's only contribution on the subject? Using the internets to provide a detailed report exploring the intelligence and assumptions behind his plan might help his credibibility.

(And can one forget that any suggestion like Clark's would of necessity be planned and carried out by the same team of rocket scientists that gave us Afghanistan and Iraq?)

by johnsmith0903 on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 11:19:27 PM EST

Re: What about the practicalities? (none / 0)

I have been a hardcore Clarkie for two years now.  

This makes me lose some of my confidence.  

Yes, Darfur is a humanitarian mess.  No, it is not feasible to ask the American people to get involved in anymore "voluntary" wars.  Not at this point in history.  We need to repair the damage to our country, to our military, and our foreign policy, before getting involved in something that has to seem, at this time, an adventure.

We're all adventured out.  Humanitarian reasons aren't good enough for me to support another military action.  If he wants to fix Darfur, he should keep that plan to himself and first run for President on the basis of cleaning up the mess that Bush got us into in the Middle East.  That is  PRIORITY ONE.

by Dumbo on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 12:07:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What about the practicalities? (none / 0)

A peacekeeping force of 1000 American troops in Sudan would save more lives than 1000 troops would in Iraq.

I have to say that I've been waiting a year for Clark to step up on this issue.  He of all current leaders could mount a serious campaign for intervention.

by DWCG on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 03:50:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm sorry maybe some here are confused (none / 0)

FUCKING GENOCIDE IS TAKING PLACE RIGHT FUCKING NOW AND THE WORLD IS DOING SHIT ABOUT IT.

I thought that needed clearing up, because reading some of these got damn posts I think some people have fucking forgotten.

by DWCG on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 04:35:38 AM EST

What would Cindy Sheehan do? (none / 0)

I'm a little curious to know what her reaction was/would be to hear that (some) ardent opponents of the aggressive war in Iraq that killed her son are proposing a war of choice in the Sudan.

I somehow doubt she would be in favour.

by johnsmith0903 on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 01:05:15 PM EST

Re: What would Cindy Sheehan do? (none / 0)

I've just posted a diary here in hopes of getting people to directly address this sort of question.  It's a critical one.  I hope you'll engage.
by arenwin on Tue Aug 23, 2005 at 02:51:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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