"Evolution Distraction": a rebuttal

There was a recent post on evolution that I replied on, and I was an absolute shithead.  

I overreacted to the following statement "Little of DIRECT practical importance would change if either side was ultimately and overwhelmingly victorious in the evolution/creationism debate."

For that I apologize, and would like to put a post up describing what evolutionary biologists do.
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First off, we need a working definition of what evolution IS before we can communicate effectively.  Evolutionary biologists generally define evolution as:

evolution: a change in the frequency of alleles in a population from one generation to another.

That's it.  Period.

What does this mean?  Genes, molecular markers, phenotypic characters, etc. often have alternate states.  "Evolution", by definition, is merely a change in the frequencies of those alternate states (for instance... genes coding for eye color) from one generation to the next.  

One problem we have is that many dictionaries incorrectly define "evolution" as follows:

Evolution: The gradual and continuous process by which the first and most primitive of living organisms have developed into the plants and animals of today.

This dictionary definition is not the working definition of evolutionary biologists, and it never has been.  Creationists often incorrectly use this as their starting point, and then point out that some evolutionary biologists believe that evolution is not "gradual" or "continuous" but rather proceeds in "jumps and starts"... a theory (ultimately called punctuated equilibrium) made popular by the late S. J. Gould.  

They then conclude, "See!  Evolution as defined by Webster is untrue!  Even evolutionary biologists don't agree whether it is 'gradual' or 'continuous'. Therefore why should we believe them?"
(Another aside... this definition uses the term "primitive organisms" (a term evolutionary biologists do not use) and only includes plants and animals, negating 3 entire kingdoms of life out there!)
see the following for a discussion of defining "evolution"
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-definition.html

see the following link for "punctuated equilibrium" discussion.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/punc-eq.html

-------------------------------------------

(intro paragraph here mostly stolen from
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html )
"When "laypeople" talk about evolution they often confuse two different aspects of the definition. On the one hand there is the question of whether or not modern organisms have evolved from older ancestral organisms or whether modern species are continuing to change over time. On the other hand there are questions about the mechanism of the observed changes... how did evolution occur? Biologists consider the existence of biological evolution to be a fact. It can be demonstrated today and the historical evidence for its occurrence in the past is overwhelming.  However, biologists readily admit that they are less certain of the exact mechanism of evolution; there are several theories of the mechanism of evolution."

How does evolution proceed?  Remember, evolution is a change in allele frequencies of a population from one generation to another... so what needs to happen in order for that to happen?  There has to be variation in gene/allele frequencies to start with?  Where does that variation come from?  Mutation.  This is a fact.  All variation in modern (and historical) populations come from mutation.  Some mutations have been demonstrated (in many many MANY organisms) to be either negative (reduces the ability of the organism to either live or reproduce), neutral (doesn't affect the organism), or positive (increases the ability of the organism to reproduce).  The fact of mutation has been overwhelmingly demonstrated.  The fact that mutations have a variety of fitness effects has been overwhelmingly demonstrated.  Where does that now leave us?  Mutations are the ultimate source of variation in populations (FACT).  Variation is necessary in order for evolution to occur (as defined).  The FACT of evolution, that mutations are introduced into populations each generation, and that selection (or genetic drift) can result in the increase or the decrease of those allele frequencies from one generation to the next.  The FACT of evolution is easily demonstratable... mutations happen which result in new alleles.  Allele frequencies change.  Period.

At this point, creationists have started to "smarten up" and they have slipped two new words into public debate (not really used by evolutionary biologists, by the way)... the concept of "microevolution" and "macroevolution".  (This is a VERY recent phenomenon, by the way... and some peop) They say, "Oh, SURE that happens in MODERN populations!  I can understand that MICROEVOLUTION happens!  But all that randomness can't create a human eyeball! (I'm not making this stuff up).  That's MACROEVOLUTION, and God did that.  

At this point, it's pretty clear that such devout people "will never be convinced of the "facthood" of (macro)evolution by any logical argument and I believe it's a waste of time to make the attempt. The best that we can hope for is that they understand the argument that they oppose. Even this simple hope is rarely fulfilled."  (a stolen quotation from above).

It is interesting to note that EVOLUTION is absolutely NOT the same thing as the "Origin of Species".  Evolution is merely explaining how a population gets from one genetic (or physical/phenotypic) state to another.  The "Origin of Species" question is a subset of evolutionary debate... which I can go into at a later date if there is interest.

It involves a population being separated into two geographically separate populations that don't comingle.  "Evolution happens" in each of the populations, (they go on separate trajectories) and when they come back together, they have evolved the inability to reproduce with one another.  This is demonstratable in relatively recently-diverged species.
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So, that's a brief primer on evolution.  Evolution, as defined by biologists, is a FACT.  There are also several "THEORIES" about evolution.  

A commentor wrote earlier, "I keep hearing about how evolutionary scientists have repeatedly debunked the creationist claims, yet I never actually see any evidence of this.  Is there any good information out there for this?"

First off, the question is not really a good one.  Evolutionary biologists do not spend their time (maybe they should spend more) "debunking creationist claims".  This debate was really over with in the scientific community literally over 150 years ago.  (Yes, there are a few "scientists" who argue for intelligent design... however, you will also note that if you look up the publication history of every one of those "scientists", they do not publish on the subject of evolution in peer-reviewed journals.  They publish non-peer-reviewed books or articles written for the masses.  There is no debate over the "fact" of evolution by evolutionary biologists... and even those "scientists" who publish for the masses about ID... they "believe" in "microevolution" (plus, it is also interesting to note that none of them are evolutionary biologists by trade.  They make their living in other fields.))
So, Evolutionary biologists do not sit in the ivory tower "debunking creationist claims".  They sit in the ivory tower trying to figure out patterns in the evolutionary process.  Most specialize on very minute subjects, (What's the evolutionary history of such and such family of organisms?  Does evolution proceed mostly through selection or drift?  How do new species form? Allopatricly or Sympatrically?... The question is never, with evolutionary biologists, "Did god do this?  or did evolution?"

That said... a GREAT resource for "the masses" is
THIS PAGE
http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-evolution.html
this is excellently written... and will take days to go through, but it's well organized.

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Back to the original statement that pissed me off...

"Little of DIRECT practical importance would change if either side was ultimately and overwhelmingly victorious in the evolution/creationism debate."

This is absolutely untrue.  First off, evolution has won in the scientific community.  Period.  There is no debate on the fact of evolution.  It would be a horrible travesty to teach our children that there is really a debate on this subject by those who actually study it.  It just isn't there.  The only thing keeping this debate alive is religious people who cannot reconcile the fact of evolution with their religious beliefs.  This is not be the fault of scientists.  There is no place whatsoever in a science classroom for "ID" or "Creationism".  These PHILOSOPHIES should be discussed elsewhere, lest they be given the slightest bit of credibility.

So, what has the study of evolution given to "the masses" of practical importance?

First off, (and I truly believe that this is one of the most important reasons to study evolution).  

KNOWLEDGE!  Where did we come from?  Where are we going?  Where did the vast history of life on earth come from?  How did life begin?  How do species arise?  How do they go extinct?  How do species evolve?  THESE QUESTIONS ARE IMPORTANT FOR KNOWLEDGE'S SAKE!  Why are we going to the moon?  Why are we going to Mars?  Why did we build a space station?  Why do we map the ocean floor?  Why do we build telescopes?  KNOWLEDGE!  Knowldedge is important...

That said, a very influetial biologist once said, "Noting in Biology makes sense except in the light of evolution."  T.H.Dobzhansky.  and this is absolutely true.

Studies of any biological process only make sense in an evolutionary context.  Evolutionary theory revolutionized the way all fields of biology think and understand their fields... molecular biology, Ecology, Forestry, Animal Husbandry, marine biology, etc. etc. etc.

What about practical results of evolutionary biology?

Evolutionary biologists discovered DNA.  It was evolutionary biologists who were interested in this ultimate source of variation...  Thanks to evolutionary biologists, we can now perform forensic science.  We can perform gene therapy (or are beginning to).  All modern animal and plant breeding programs use basic evolutionary principles (and tools created by evolutionary biologists... QTL analysis and many other  genetic tools) to breed better crops and farm animals.  Evolutionary biologists have discovered the origin of most crop species due to evolutionary techniques, and breeders are now going into those original crops to find novel sources of variation to introduce into existing crops...

MEDICINE!  Without an understanding of evolution, the thought of developing new antibiotics would never have happened.  The FDA recently banned the use of some antibiotics in chickens.  Why?  Because microbes are EVOLVING resistence.  The center of disease control... The CDC is using evolutionary techniques to determine how disease organisms jump from host to host.  Where that might happen and when, and what can we do to stop it?.  AIDS research.  The "drug cocktail" used to treat AIDS cases was developed due to the recognition that the AIDS virus was developing resistence to individual drugs... ETC. ETC. ETC.

Saving endangered species (defining minimum viable populations by the EPA)!  Zoo-animal breeding!  Cloning!  Gene therapy, Transgenic crops (whoops!) (and possible consequences all made possible thanks to evolutionary biologists.

This is not trivial.  It is important to not let creationists set us back.  Evolution has won.  The practical results of this would just be too devastating to all fields (medicinal and biological) that work with living organisms.  


Display:


Creation - Evolution (3.00 / 1)

Nice work.

Bottom line we need to make the masses realize that they are free to teach that Intelligent Design and/or Creationism are fine if all you are looking for is an explanation for the beginning of the universe other than the "Big Bang". But if you want to understand how organisms here on Earth right now function and how they pass on their genes to future generations then you'd better be studying the science of "evolution" instead of the philosophy of the beginning of the universe.

Persons wanting to defend the science of evolution need to stress, repeatedly, that they aren't generally interested in explaining the origin of the universe. Instead, they seek to understand how populations change their genetic makeup over time. That's science not philosophy. There really is no conflict there with religion since all that is necessary is to posit that God is responsible for the mechanism of evolution.

by Curt Matlock on Wed Aug 17, 2005 at 12:10:42 PM EST

Re: Creation - Evolution (3.00 / 1)

Actually, I would argue one minor point... That we can actually say that mutation, selection, genetic drift, and a whole host of biological processes are responsible for evolution.  Those are the mechanisms.  And we have explanation as to the molecular mechanisms for mutation, mathematical and evolutionary explanations for the change of allele frequencies from generation to generation.  So, "God" does not need to be invoked at any of those stages.

Scientists, by necessity, can never reply "God" as an answer.  "God" is never the answer to "How?" in science.  "How does this work?"  Well, we can figure that out, more often than not, even if it literally takes hundreds of years."  Invoking "God" when we get to a difficult question of "How?" in science, would result in the termination of that field of study, for no further questions would need to be asked.

We're finding out that it's very easy to ask "how" questions.  The thing Science will never be able to answer will be the "Why?" questions.  "Why does evolution work this way?"  I'll leave that up to our religious and philosophical leaders.  Evolution is a fact.  Why are the laws of the universe such that life must be created and diversify in this fashion?  That, ultimately, may be a question that we have to ask God... and today, we don't have the technology to do so.

Invest in nature
by NCDem on Wed Aug 17, 2005 at 12:29:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Creation - Evolution (3.00 / 1)

I didn't see anything in your response that I disagreed with so I'm not clear on what the minor point is that you are quibbling with.

Perhaps the part about religious people being free to posit that god is responsible for evolution? I was trying to say that if you want, you can philosophically give God "credit" for creating this entire universe in which we live, including all of its physical laws and all of the mechanisms of evolution. It's a fall back position for the devoutly religious. It goes something like this ... 'Yes, these facts of science may be true but God is the one who set everything in motion and made the laws'.

For myself that is not adequate. I can't accept the ID argument, which in short is that because the universe is a system of immense complexity it must have been designed by an intelligent being. The problem of course is that if you claim that all immensely complex systems must have been designed then you must consider the origin of the designer itself. Surely such a designer must also be immensely complex and so therefore must also have required a designer.

How do you get around this problem of the complex designer needing a designer? You don't, so to me, Intelligent Design is a foolish philosophy. That doesn't mean of course that I want to jam this belief of mine down every religious person's throat. Instead, I want to make sure the science of evolution stays separate from the philosophy of the origin of the universe. A politically acceptable way for me to do that is to allow ID'ers the freedom to teach their cosmology but prevent them from meddling in science.

by Curt Matlock on Wed Aug 17, 2005 at 12:45:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Creation - Evolution (3.00 / 0)

We are completely, 100% in agreement.
Invest in nature
by NCDem on Wed Aug 17, 2005 at 03:02:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Creation - Evolution (none / 0)

I was nitpicking a point "God is responsible for the mechanism of evolution".  

Mutation, natural selection, and genetic drift are the mechanisms responsible for evolution.... all observable... and x-rays and gamma rays and etc. are responsibe for mutations... and the sun is responsible for making those mutations... and the condensation of materials is responsible for making the sun and...

you get the picture... and you stated it more eloquently that I.

Invest in nature
by NCDem on Wed Aug 17, 2005 at 03:08:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

thanks for this (3.00 / 1)

It is great to see this diary.  It is particularly frustrating in my field - Physical Anthropology, which tends to deal with the most hot-button aspect of Evolutionary Theory of all, which is the origin of modern homo sapiens - to see this repeatedly enter the press as though there's a wide-ranging scientific debate over the basic historical facts or general mechanisms of gene frequency change.  What folks don't tend to understand is that within the world of science, there is no more debate on the basic principles of the theory than there is on the basic principles of the theory of gravity (arguably, even less, in fact).

It's around the margins - the detailed mechanisms of gene frequency change, the best models to use to simulate evolutionary processes, the amount of gene flow required to prevent speciation or sub-species diversification - that debates continue.  Technical issues.

And people don't realize how many freakin' PhDs universities pump out each year.  It's not that hard to round up a few dozen for nearly any crackpot theory, especially if you offer them prominence that they would't be able to achieve in the scientific world, because they're not particularly good scientists.

But despite the energy of folks like the (late) Stephen J. Gould, all this has not been articulated well enough yet in the public sphere.  That's part of the concern I was trying to address in my diary from late last night.  As you say:

Evolutionary biologists do not spend their time (maybe they should spend more) "debunking creationist claims".

Unfortunately, evolution has become a political football (again).  And scientists have a rough time navigating those waters, because it's not in their training.

by arenwin on Wed Aug 17, 2005 at 12:28:54 PM EST

Re: thanks for this (none / 0)

That was an agonizingly thought-out post.  I'm sorry I missed it earlier, as you touched on some of what I said.  

See
http://www.mydd.com/story/2005/8/17/115915/167

for a brief discussion what I'm beginning to believe is an exercise in futility... trying to think things through and write good, informative content as opposed to just writing inflammatory 1-paragraph diaries that people can read quickly.

Invest in nature
by NCDem on Wed Aug 17, 2005 at 12:36:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

ID in Religous Classes (3.00 / 2)

Here's a good example of what I consider a politically smart way to defuse this controversy. In Columbus, Indiana, they now teach the controversy in a religious studies course. This is what an article on the front page of today's Indianapolis Star had to say:

When some residents in Columbus petitioned the School Board three years ago to give the Bible's creation account equal time with evolution, school officials came up with a novel response.

They created a new class -- under the heading of social studies -- that examines all the theories on human origins. Not only did the class cover evolution and creationism, it also surveyed Navajo beliefs, the Hindu creation story and a host of other perspectives.

Greg Lewis, the social studies chairman at Columbus East High School, figured a skeptical public would put his Human Origins class under the microscope. "Teaching the course was like walking a tightrope," he said.

In the end, the dissection Lewis expected never came. The course's treatment of the issues seemed to soothe the population to the point that, after two semesters, so few kids were interested in the subject there weren't enough to fill a course section.

Students don't care about this controversy, their parents do. Mollify the parents by pushing the controversy where it belongs, into courses on religion. Don't bend on putting ID in with science curricula unless the subject matter at hand is the origin of the universe.

by Curt Matlock on Wed Aug 17, 2005 at 01:40:23 PM EST

Article URL (none / 0)

Forgot the URL for the above clip from the Indy Star.
by Curt Matlock on Wed Aug 17, 2005 at 01:41:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ID in Religous Classes (none / 0)

That's an extremely thought-provoking article, thanks for forwarding it along.  I haven't the faintest problem with comparative religion and philosophy being taught in public schools, so long as - like we see here - it covers more than just Christianity and Judiasm.  In fact, I think it's a great thing to do.

As far as the teaching of creationism versus evolutionary theories of origins are concerned, my first reaction is that this seems like a reasonable approach as long as, in its actual implementation, it isn't a thinly veiled cover for attacking evolutionary theory.

It is key, however, that this course does NOT (as far as I could see in a quick scan) focus on "Intelligent Design" theories.  If you're going to teach creationism as part of a comparative religion or philosophy course, then just teach creationism.  ID is a smokescreen - a fake science invented for the purpose of discrediting evolutionary science, and no other - and has no place anywhere in the school system.  (Except perhaps in a political science course.)

by arenwin on Wed Aug 17, 2005 at 03:24:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

hey where (3.00 / 1)

did your other diary go.  I was still arguing for pork.
by THE MODERATE on Wed Aug 17, 2005 at 02:58:35 PM EST

Re: hey where (none / 0)

I deleted it.  i annoyed myself for posting twice today... especially since the 2nd diary was so lame. and beef is better.
Invest in nature
by NCDem on Wed Aug 17, 2005 at 03:09:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Boo! Hiss! (none / 0)

Don'cha want to break Felmlee's flame war record?

I guess not. This puppy could actually hit 400.

Anyway: Boooooooooo!

Yeah, I'm cynical.
by catastrophile on Wed Aug 17, 2005 at 03:49:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: hey where (none / 0)

and seriously... pulled pork?  Put a pig on a barbeque and soak the meat with vinegar 'til it's practically pickled?  Come on.  The smoke flavor doesn't even penetrate the meat.
Invest in nature
by NCDem on Wed Aug 17, 2005 at 03:11:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: hey where (none / 0)

I am sorry you deleted it it was the top diary of the day.  And I figured after you lived up here you would forget about that hamburger meat you were raised on.  I grew up in the east, but in the west they have a tomato past sause that you may like better.
by THE MODERATE on Wed Aug 17, 2005 at 03:20:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Bible as literature (none / 0)

Posted at Seeing the Forest by Thomas Leavitt, Fundamentalist Christians Abuse "Bible As Literature" Curricula to Propagandize Public School Students.

If you check the comments, I went to the Executive Summary of the course material  and found this:

The curriculum cites a "respected scholar" who claims that archaeological evidence "always confirms the facts of the Biblical record" [page 170]. Yet that "respected scholar" claimed elsewhere to have seen Jesus' school records in India, records from the lost continent of Atlantis and evidence that Egypt's Great Pyramid of Giza was used to transmit radio messages to the Grand Canyon thousands of years ago.

Bet you didn't know that scientists lost two days somewhere. I bet they fell between the cushions on God's sofa:
The curriculum uses a discredited urban legend that NASA has evidence that two days are missing in time, thus "confirming" a biblical passage about the sun standing still [pages 116-17].

The answer key to a quiz [page 87] identifies a pharaoh as "Hyksos." Hyksos was the name of an Asiatic-Semitic people who once ruled Egypt.

Don't let anyone kid you about what the materials actually teach. The whole course is a flaming bag of dog poop.

by Gary Boatwright on Wed Aug 17, 2005 at 06:10:01 PM EST

Of course, (none / 0)

if they really want to teach the Bible as literature, they'll have 'em read the Song of Solomon . . .
Yeah, I'm cynical.
by catastrophile on Wed Aug 17, 2005 at 07:45:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Thank You (3.00 / 0)

Thank you for your thoughtful and well organized response to my earlier, more impulsive article. Apologies accepted and appreciated.

Your case for the DIRECT importance of biology to our lives is well stated. My only caveat is that alot of us don't think much beyond our day-to-day lives and specific areas of interest, making biology SEEM unimportant. I'm not saying that's good or right, but it's a FACT. While, as you state, there is a group of people that the Left will have to write off, I propose that there are people of faith we could find common cause with who will never see beyond the Republican frame if the political debate is not handled gently. I don't know the numbers, but the last two Presidential elections show the importance of a few thousand strategically placed votes.

The response of the Columbus school board mentioned by Curt is very much along the lines of what I'm thinking. It was a LOCAL, creative solution that "changed the subject," defused the manufactured crisis, and allowed everyone to save face. I would hope the subsequent disinterest in the course can be seen as adequate vindication for those with antipathy towards creationism or religion in general.

by ProgressiveChristian on Wed Aug 17, 2005 at 09:43:53 PM EST

This is good, but... (3.00 / 1)

As deep as your knowledge of biology is (admirably so), I worry that reasserting your definition of evolution as "fact" is not going to accomplish anything.  Worse than that: it actually helps the ID folks make gains.  What they want is for experts like you to explain why your understanding of evolution is better than theirs.  

This "evolution debate" going on the country is not really about science.  It's a political war that's been dressed up in science.  

The Right wants to take back the schools, which they see as a bastion of Liberal corruption of American society.  And they are willing to sacrifice our children's education for their paranoid vision of the culture wars. To stop them from destroying our children's future, we must refuse to talk about evolution and instead talk about the way our approach to schooling helps this country.

I loved reading this awesome lesson about biological evolution! It's like getting a free college biology course (better...because it's actually interesting).  But it would also be great if the people who really, really know this stuff would use their authority to lead the debate back into the heart of the matter: American schools.  

by Jeffrey Feldman on Thu Aug 18, 2005 at 07:32:10 AM EST

Right on: (none / 0)

"This 'evolution debate' going on the country is not really about science.  It's a political war that's been dressed up in science."

I think it's another example of the Reeps picking fights they know they can't win. By committing themselves to the fight and losing it, they mobilize their base to try to drive still more liberal infidels out of office.

So, yeah, merely pounding on the idiocy of their assertions may actually further the Reeps' goals in this fight. Remember: "They despise you because they despise your Christ."

Yeah, I'm cynical.
by catastrophile on Thu Aug 18, 2005 at 01:49:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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