Conversion versus Activation

A criticism of the progressive blogosphere that I have seen from many commentators of pretty much every ideological persuasion is that it preaches to the choir instead of converting people to the cause. I have always found this to be a frustratingly myopic view of politics and of business. Whenever I hear something like this, my first response is "of course it preaches to the choir, you dolts! Can't you understand anything about politics except endlessly trying to convert the ever-shrinking sliver of swing voters? The goal is to preach to the choir and to activate the choir. The more active our choir, the more resources we have to eventually target swing voters and the unconverted. The more resources we have to target swing voters and the unconverted, then the larger we will be able to make our choir." There was a section in Jamie Davies' presentation at the NPI forum on progressive media that I believe explained this very well (transcript mine):
Let's review the issue of targeting. Our political objectives require us to think in these terms: base voters and swing voters, right? But our commercial success requires us to target the most valuable customers: the customers who spend the most money and can be acquired at the lowest customer acquisition cost.

Reaching swing voters and targeting the most [politically] profitable consumers [i.e., the unconverted] actually may or may not be the right thing to do in the short term. But successfully reaching already politically committed consumers can be achieved by reaching citizen customers over the long term.

Let's look at the conservative movement. The conservative movement energized and modified a base conservative constituency to generate significant revenue and build powerful media organizations. The commercial power of Rush, of Sean Hannity, and of Ann Coulter, made them mainstream media figures. These energetic base consumers powered the fast growing media companies of the hard right conservative movement and enabled them to then, in turn, on a business level, profitably target swing voter markets and influence mainstream media over the long term.

As we seek to build a progressive media marketplace, we can preach both to the choir in a highly profitable and visible way that then in turn enables us to preach to the unconverted. It's politics but it's also just smart business.

(Also, see page 57 of the pdf of this presentation). Without an active and energized base, your ability to target swing voters is significantly reduced. One of the reasons why the right has so consistently had more resources to target swing voters is because they have generated so much revenue from their choir. For too long our model has been to skip the choir altogether and move directly to targeting swing voters and the unconverted. This has resulted in the political equivalent of progressives bringing a knife to the gunfight over swing voters.

The short-term success of the new progressive media marketplace that is the activist progressive blogosphere has been to generate far more resources from our choir than we have at any other time over the past three decades. What was, for at least two decades, a pathetically single-minded model of voter persuasion, just go straight after swing voters, has now been replaced by the start of a circular model where we can do the following:

  • 1- Preach to the choir
  • 2- Activate the choir and generate revenue
  • 3- Use that revenue to target swingers and the unconverted
  • 4- Return to step one with an expanded choir
Progressive media is in its infancy, and its goal at this stage is not to convert and target the swing. The goal is, instead, to preach to the choir and activate the choir so that we have far more revenue so that we can eventually expand. If we only and ever target the swing, there is simply no way for us to expand our base, because as far as we are concerned the base plays no role in politics or media.

The early success of this model should be obvious even to the most ardent supporters of nineties-style "triangulation." The progressive blogosphere is growing faster than the conservative blogosphere. Progressive radio is gaining on conservative radio. Not surprisingly, Democrats are raising a lot more resources than they ever have in the past. Of course, Republicans are still raising more, but they have been doing this longer and, at this moment in time, have both a larger and a more active base.

If we don't preach to the choir and activate the choir, we are dead. This dense, short-sighted, repetitive and endless focus on appealing to a shrinking center is not the way to go. It's not smart politics, and it is not smart business.



Display:


Not to mention (3.00 / 2)

"The choir" is often a group of individuals who like to talk to their neighbhors and family about politics.  By activating them and providing them with facts and talking points they can help influence swing voters neighbor-to-neighbor.
by Lavoisier1794 on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 01:13:09 PM EST

also, teaching to the choir (3.00 / 2)

The right also, and this is important, trains its choir to be persuasive and effective as a political force.

It's not just preaching, it's also teaching.

by Matt Stoller on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 01:27:25 PM EST

Re: also, teaching to the choir (none / 0)

This is not terribly likely to happen with an online venue, which is the beef I have with netroots activists.

In order to be an effective persuader, one needs more than a couple of days of training.  One have good social skills, an ability to listen, and a degree of salesmanship you won't find in the average online "debater."

Online activism is only effective when the online activist pries himself away from his computer, and send him out in the world to wrangle voters.  

I happen to think if we had a permanent precinct captain system in place, this would accomplish more than this issues oriented massive jerk off which passes for electronic activism today.

by nanorich on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 05:11:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

There are all kinds... (none / 0)

Yes there are many people online that aren't doing things offline.  

However there are many people online that are doing very important things offline.

"issues oriented massive jerk off which passes for electronic activism today."

That issue orientation is what allowed us to block the Social Security privitization scheme.   There was not a coordinated voice on the issue initially other than ONLINE.  Without the strong direction that the democratic internet sites gave, there is little doubt (based on past democratic strategy) that the democratic response would have been to propose a counter solution rather than aggresively attack by saying that Bush was making up the crisis.

By the way, I sell for living, and I never have had the opportunity for closing the sale by using the words

"massive jerk off"

I guess that you are a better salesman though, maybe some day I will learn.  

by lookinforward on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 09:21:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Sorry Nanorich... (none / 0)

My post above may be a little harsh.

I just know from personal experience that many of the people that I have met online are out in the real world at meeting, working with candidates, talking to voters.

I know this becuase our daily Kos group in Austin meets in person regularly and is made up people that have either never been involved before or had not been involved for a while.  

So my personal experience is very different from yours.  But we both agree that getting out into the "real world" is very important.   And hopefully there are a lot of people like me that have the experience of being with people that are going out into the "real world."

by lookinforward on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 09:26:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorry Nanorich... (none / 0)

No problem, however I feel that online "debates" convince nobody of anything.  They are basically entertainment exercises where a person thinks he might be persuading someone to come over to his point of view, but personally I have never seen this happen.  

Like Chris, I think that online discussion can finally motivate people to actual take action.  But at the same time, I find people engrossed in arguing policy aren't the most productive workers in GOTV, or working in a field office.

(I have some pretty strong views on GOTV and organizing, anyway...and find, after doing this for ten years, that phonebanking is useless, except maybe push polling...and there is no substitute for actually going out and talking face to face with real people.  And in doing this, that more than half the job is listening.)

I have also been online for 20 years...and it is pretty good organizing tool to get people out of their home...but basically, I doubt if even 20percent of people who participate in political discussion online do little more than talk.

A smaller percentage actually give money.

An even smaller percentage volunteer to any degree...and of those...you will find people who have the level of commitment to go out in actually work in politics amount to a very small percentage of those who talk politics online.

Even so....there is a lot of discussion about policy which has nothing to do with political organizing.

I am a process, rather than a policy person.  If I find a candidate I like, and I like his organization, and I think the person has future, I work for them.  

However, this endless jabber second guessing why Kerry lost, or what is wrong with our party...and this other crap which is just idle talk is tiresome, especially when there is work to be done.

I have a lot success doing face to face canvassing, even doing door to door stuff, I am pretty good at identifying our voters, and even finding potential volunteers during the canvassing.

If you have done field work, you will understand what I say is true.  

by nanorich on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 11:23:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Nail on the Head (3.00 / 2)

Chris:

Your points are spot on. My experience as a MeetUp host, recently energized local (MD) political student, member of book clubs, etc. is that there is a huge community of like-minded "progressives" who feel estranged from the National Democratic Establishment, who lack positive feedback for their political beliefs, and (like me) are largely ignorant of local and state politics. I was amazed, for example, how relatively easy it is for a small group of citizens to get an audience with our elected officials. Candidates are eager to appear before groups of 25 to tell their stories and to answer questions. By getting a little more involved I found out that in MD the Secretary of State is appointed, not elected, and that the Board of Elections also is appointed with a majority going to the Governor's party. So, even in "blue" states and communities there is an enormous way to go, and there is lots more to community than elections. Air America is growing here, I think, by word of mouth. I beleive that there is a marketplace for a national progressive newspaper a la USA Today, and I and many many others would send in $100 as advance subscriptions.  Keep up the great blog.  TMA

by DFATMA on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 01:34:35 PM EST

Re: Nail on the Head (none / 0)

DFATMA:

If you want to get engaged you should check out Progressive Maryland or other groups.  They are always looking for business people who are willing to provide a counter to the more vocal business interests in the state.

by Steve Hill on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 03:51:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

More (none / 0)

Although this is sort of part of 1) and 3), I would say, a big part of progressive blogoshpere can be to help educate and identify our potential choir.

I dont see progressive blogs, from this huge one to my tiny one, a simply a place to learn how to frame issues, educate ourselves, etc.  I see them as communities that we can make ever more inviting to an ever greater audience, including many that may not be poltical junkies like so many of us.  Groups like Music for America, Drinking Liberally, etc, help us to get more of "progressive people" to turn into progressive politcos.  And, if we can do that, we truly kick some ass.

Progressive Philadelphia Politics: Young Philly Politics
by DanielUA on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 02:00:46 PM EST

At seminars in the former Soviet Union.... (none / 0)

...when I was a political party trainer there many moons ago, the first subject in campaign training also happens to be the one subject Chris neglects in this post.

Message.

Winning elections is not some circular mathematical strategy.  There are actual human beings involved.  It is this Karl-Rove-evil-genius theory, that there is some cauldron of magic potions that if we just unlock...voila!!  We win!!  See George Lakoff's framing nonsense...magic words and phrases!

Perhaps Chris forgets message because the message that this preaching to the choir sends to voters is hugely un-voter friendly.  All that swing voters know about Democrats right now is that Democrats are weak on national security.  End of story.  That's what all this preaching to the choir has produced.

That's why I try to speak a little louder, and say no, not all Democrats are roll over and play dead George Galloway/Ward Churchill/Noam Chomsky worshippers.  Some of us Democrats are not interested in preaching this topic to any choir.  Period.  

(It might also be why my comments get banned.  Regularly.)

by TimRusso on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 02:07:21 PM EST

The difference between you and me Russo (3.00 / 2)

Is that you are a specific type of Democrat, while I am just a Democrat. You only support specific types of Democrats, and trash the rest. For you, Democrats who do not fit your type are a bigger enemy than Republcians.

Yes, of course this forgets message. Except that this is not the only part of the presentation--do you even watch the whole thing? Messaging plays a huge role in this strategy. We haven't talked endlessly about messge and framing on the blogs over the past several months or anything. As far as messaging applies to this strategy, I think this works:

The Final Words on Moving to the Center

by Chris Bowers on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 02:13:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The difference between you and me Russo (none / 0)

To quote Lakoff and Arianna Bloody Huffington on why we shouldn't be in the center is like telling Tiger Woods to go to Bob Costas for advice on his golf swing.

How many elections has Lakoff ever fought?  Has he delivered a single leaflet in his entire life?  Written a TV spot?  Designed a direct mail campaign, much less a winning direct mail campaign?  What about Huffington?  What, exactly, has she done for the Democratic Party?  

You hit the nail on the head when you say that to move to the center implies that Bush is correct on some of his policies.  He is.  He isn't wrong every single minute of every single day.  That would make him unelectable, something I think you know quite a lot about.

He wins elections.  We lose.  Not because of some hocus pocus.  Because we have serious problems with real voters who do not trust us on security.  It is a fact.  

by TimRusso on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 02:27:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The difference between you and me Russo (3.00 / 1)

What, now you're Tiger Woods?

I propose a strategy very similar, if not identical, to the one conservatives have been using for years, as does Lakoff, and then you tell me that I should learn from Bush. It srikes me that you are the one who is not paying attention to how they succeed. Another difference between you and me is that you think we have to be them in order to win--I just think we can learn from their strategy and organization.

by Chris Bowers on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 03:05:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The difference between you and me Russo (none / 0)

Judging from my last round at Fowler's Mill, no, I am most certainly not Tiger Woods.

Preaching to the choir is the opposite of what we need.  Converting the choir is what we need.  The choir is singing a very un-voter-friendly tune.  The voters do not want to hear it.  In fact, the voters want to hear the other tune.  

What is more ridiculous is that the tune the choir is singing, while it is on the seminal issue of our time (security), represents a tiny fraction of what Democrats stand for.  Tiny.  Worse yet, the choir singing this tune represents a tiny fraction of the party as a whole.

Yet this tiny fraction of the Democratic Party is drowning out every single other thing Democrats want to run on.  Everything.  For one issue to make us irrelevant, and for Democrats to then run around saying we need to make that issue our biggest issue, and preach it ever more further to the choir, is bizarre.  

No strategy is going to make voters want to hear this tune.  No matter how cleverly conceived.

by TimRusso on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 03:17:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The difference between you and me Russo (none / 0)

Tim

In two days of observation here, it seems that you get much pleasure out of being abrasive.  It's too bad; it's as though you're more interested in getting a reaction from people than you are in getting them to see what you have to say.

That's unfortunate, because good points get lost.  If you don't mind my saying, when one is interested in being polarizing, one often ends up standing alone.  That's not a very good approach to bringing people over to one's side.

I agree that there can be a problem in focusing too much with the "choir" when things that resonate with them are not the same things that resonate with a broader spectrum of voters.

I don't have the answer.  But I do appreciate the problem, and respect that others have much to add to this conversation.

Much of the problem has to do with how money is spent.  The biggest "progressive" think tank or message machine is the Center for American Progress.  Their ENTIRE budget is less than the COMMUNICATIONS budget at the conservative Heritage Foundation.  Throw in the other conservative think tanks, conservative radio, etc., and you see that progressives are at a disadvantage in message delivery.  At least in that regard.

by Steve Hill on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 04:04:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The difference between you and me Russo (none / 0)

You confuse "abrasive" with "something you disagree with".  

We are not lacking in strategies.  We are lacking in an understanding of the security issue.  Period.  

by TimRusso on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 04:10:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

100% Wrong! (none / 0)

The opposite of truth:
The choir is singing a very un-voter-friendly tune.  The voters do not want to hear it.  In fact, the voters want to hear the other tune.
If this were true, then why would so many Bush voters think that he held Kerry's positions on significant foreign policy issues?

See, for example, PIPA's press release (PDF) for the Oct 21, 2004 Report, "The Separate Realities of Bush and Kerry Supporters" (PDF).  The main thrust is that Bush supporters are severely out of touch with basic facts (no WMDs in Iraq, no Iraq/al Qaeda cooperation, no worldwide majority favoring Iraq War), but a sidelight is that Bush supporters are also out of touch with where their candidate stands:

Bush supporters also have numerous misperceptions about Bush's international policy  positions. Majorities incorrectly assume that Bush supports multilateral approaches to various international issues--the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty (69%), the treaty banning land mines (72%)--and for addressing the problem of global warming: 51% incorrectly assume he favors US participation in the Kyoto treaty. After he denounced the International Criminal Court in the debates, the perception that he favored it dropped from 66%, but still 53% continue to believe that he favors it. An overwhelming 74% incorrectly assumes that he favors including labor and environmental standards in trade agreements. In all these cases, majorities of Bush supporters favor the positions they impute to Bush. Kerry supporters are much more accurate in their perceptions of his positions on these issues.

This is a simple result of the fact that roughly 50% of self-described conservatives are programmatically liberal, a fact first uncovered by Lloyd Free and Hadley Cantril and published in their 1967 book, "The Political Beliefs of Americans".  

Furthermore, beginning in 1972, the General Social Survey (GSS) has repeatedly produced similar findings. Looking at cumulative results in seven issue areas, more conservatives usually wanted to raise spending, rather than lower it. This was true every time for education (22-0), the environment (22-0), health care (22-0), and social security (14-0), and most of the time for aid to cities (19-3) and defense (14-8). The conservatives only split decision came on aid to blacks (11-11). But when you add in those who want to keep spending the same, self-described "conservatives" who favor cutting spending are a minority every time.

Conservatives have won politically precisely because they've been able to distract attention from the core issues of governance--who gets what for what purpose--and redirect it toward a symbolic shadow-play.  

An integral part of this success is due to the likes of Russo, so called "centrist" Democrats who are forever bashing those of us who want to keep pushing majoritarian positions like the ones listed above.

by Paul Rosenberg on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 05:18:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 100% Wrong! (none / 0)

Paul,

You miss the entire point.  The point is that Democrats look weak on defense.  Whatever anyone believes about Bush's positions aside from that is irrelevant.  Completely.

If there is a young mother out there who is pro-choice, wants to raise taxes on the rich, supports labor unions and the minimum wage, wants universal single payer health care, wants higher emissions standards, higher government spending, wants the US to forgive African debts, supports affirmative action, can't stand the thought of touching Social Security....in short...

...IS THE PERFECT DEMOCRAT ON EVERY SINGLE ISSUE....

....but she thinks that Democrats are a bunch of Noam Chomsky, self-blaming, peacenik pussies in the face of Al Queda...

She's voting for Bush.  

That's the point.  It doesn't matter what anyone thinks of Bush's policies.  It matters what voters think of Democrats in a post 9/11 world.

(and by the way, the whole "voters are ignorant" argument is a sure loser.)

by TimRusso on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 05:36:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

But That's MY Argument! (none / 0)

My whole argument is that Democrats don't need to move right on the issues. They need to stand firm for what they believe in. This is what projecting strength is all about.  FDR was a frickin cripple for gosh sakes!  True, he did a great deal to downplay his condition. But he spent his entire Presidency in a wheel chair. Yet, no one thought he was too weak to lead us in WWII.

As for your guilt-by-association with Noam Chomsky routine, well, it simply shows your true McCarthyite roots.  After all, Chomsky isn't even a Democrat, much less a Democratic candidate for office.  The role of a critic is criticism ("You could look it up!" as Yogi Bera would say.) That's what Chomsky does.  

The role of a political leader is to (1) define political reality and (2) craft policies that work, given that political reality. Chris, Lakoff, Huffington and I all agree that Democrats need to do both (1) and (2) in order to win. We say that as long as Democrats let Republicans alone do (1), we will always be playing catch-up, and will only rarely win.  Failure to define political reality is a sure-fired way to fail the leadership test.  And that's precisely what you are prescribing: failure.

by Paul Rosenberg on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 05:54:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 100% Wrong! (none / 0)

Late but I have to say, "The point is Democrats LOOK weak on defense", is the result of relentless propaganda with the "look strong" Republican image-war resulting in commander codpiece strutting across the Abraham Lincoln as a disgrace to the uniform. It appears to be the often absurd images foisted on us by the Roves that make us "look weak". So according to Russo Logic, we should wear Jack Boots, don skull and cross bones pins, and wear terror-scalps on our belts to one-up the repugs.

I think not. I think the American people are beginning to see that the faux arrogance, the strutting, the "bring it on" bullshit is just that. And the costs are enormous. In contrast, for one example, I think it is up to us to call for National Service for every able American youngster, service that in largest preponderance should be devoted to building a stronger domestic and peaceful, collaborative foreign community.

And I think we should call these chickenhawks on their fantasy that the war on terror can be won without sacrifice. In order to call for sacrifice, we have to make the reasoned and image-backed case for national service.

by DFATMA on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 06:11:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Well, that's the reall difference then, isn't it? (none / 0)

You think we are wrong as a party, generally speaking, and need to change our platform, especially on foreign and military policy, in order to appeal to voters. I think that we are generally right as a party, including on foreign and military policy, and we only need better organization and strategy in order to break out of minority status.

While that disagreement cannot be bridged, at the very least you should stop bashing members of your own party, with Rove-like lines involving "therapy" and general uber-conservative lines such as "latte-drinking." Your positions on foreign policy put you in an extreme minority position within your own party, 85% of whom now think the war in Iraq was a bad idea, and over 70% of whom now support withdrawal within one year. Using conservative caricatures agains them isn't going to change that.

by Chris Bowers on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 05:58:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Close, but no cigar (none / 0)

Well said on the differences, Chris.  And I may be a minority (not as extreme as you think) in my party on the issue of security.  

Maybe.  I happen to think most Democrats are hard-assed, working class, blue collar, Reagan Democrats, who split their tickets all the time, and who would be thrilled to vote Democrat if only we didn't look like a bunch of wimps.

That is one issue.  It is a damn shame that the caricature Democrats paint of themselves (not a Rove line...it's my line...and it isn't Rove's caricature...it is self-painted my friend) on this issue disqualifies Democrats from reaching voters on every single other issue.  

As for name-calling...please.  I got some guy making a clinical diagnosis of my mental state in this thread.  These blogs are anything but civil.  Besides, the latte thing is rather apt, don't you think?

by TimRusso on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 06:34:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What decade are you living in? (none / 0)

"I happen to think most Democrats are hard-assed, working class, blue collar, Reagan Democrats, who split their tickets all the time."

You think most Democrats voted for Reagan? That is delusional. Only 26% voted for Reagan, even against Mondale.

You think most Democrats are blue-collar? Only about 20% of the jobs in this country are blue-collar anymore, and you think most Dmeocrats are blue-collar? Are you sure you know what year it is?

"Besides, the latte thing is rather apt, don't you think?"

So let me get this straight--you think most Demcorats are working class, hard-assed, blue collar and latte-drinking?

You are living in the past. I don't think you are very aware of the current political landscape. And you don't need to tell me what Democratic voters are like, considering I live in a city that went 81% for Kerry.

One good thing--your bizarre, anachronistic, contradictory caricutures of Democrats make it easy for me to remember why I am glad you aren't posting on the front-page here anymore.

by Chris Bowers on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 07:28:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What decade are you living in? (none / 0)

As someone who has worked with union people (I am one) during various campaigns, I would say the humblest member of Janitors for Justice has more political sophistication and understanding of Democratic Demographics than the stereotypes promulgated by Tim's odd projections.
by nanorich on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 07:34:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What decade are you living in? (1.00 / 1)

Chris,

When's the last time you actually spoke to a voter on the doorstep?  Made a phone call on a phone bank to an independent voter?  To any voter?  Do you speak to anyone who doesn't watch the news?  Do you speak to black people?  Anyone who doesn't read a newspaper?  Anyone who isn't...well...just like you?

Hate to break it to you buddy, but living in a city that went 81% for Kerry is not living in the normal universe.  In the normal universe, Democrats split their ticket, vote Republican often, most often they don't vote at all, drive pickup trucks with gun racks, go to church, even watch sports on TV, and thank God in heaven, don't read this, or any other blog.

Guess who's my Congressman, Chris?  Dennis Kucinich.  A hero of the latte left.  Bet you love him.  Guess what.  He was pro-life when he was elected to Congress...until he ran for president.  Flip flopped on that to join your choir.  He voted for flag burning amendments...until last month.  Flip flopped on that, too.  He's now one of the furthest left people in Congress, singing the I'm-a-pussy-Democrat song louder than even Howard Dean himself.

While he's been running to join your "choir", he's been losing his base.  He's gone from a high of 79% of the vote to 59% since he won narrowly in 1996 (a seat I helped him win.  Ask him.  What the hell were you doing in 1996, Chris?)  The seat will soon become a legitimate Republican target.

While he's running toward your choir, he's losing his base, and taking the Democratic Party in half of the most important county in the most important swing state in the country down the toilet with him.  

Maybe some day, you guys will look up from your computers long enough to actually interact with normal human beings.  Until then, keep talking to yourselves in the mirror, telling each other how smart you are, keep giving each other big comment ratings, rah rah fucking rah.  

This is one Democrat who will not stand by silently and watch you take my party into oblivion with you.  Feel free to join me when you come to your senses.  

Until then, it is you who are the minority.  You whine a lot louder than the majority of Democrats.  You're full of bloggety goodness.  Lazy journalists pay attention to you.  That doesn't make it your party.

by TimRusso on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 08:31:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

More Lies From Russo (none / 0)

To quote Lakoff and Arianna Bloody Huffington on why we shouldn't be in the center...
This is not what either Lakoff or Huffington say.  (A typical red herring argument from a base-bashing Dem.)  What they say is that we cannot win by chasing "the center," we have to bring the center to us by articulating a vision that resonates with them.  

This is the exact same thing that the right has done, btw.  The difference is that: (1) Our vision is based in reality, their's in fantasy. (2) Our vision is based on telling the truth, their's is based on lies. (3) Our vision is grounded in America's fundamental philosophy of political liberalism, their's is not. And (4) our vision has a track record of working to produce a broadly inclusive society, and the largest middle class in the history of humanity, their's does not.

by Paul Rosenberg on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 05:30:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: More Lies From Russo (none / 0)

I actually don't give a shit what Lakoff or Huffington say.  To cite them as guides for the Democratic party is complete lunacy.

Arianna Huffington?  Are you kidding me?  You're hitching your argument to her wagon?  Good luck with that.

by TimRusso on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 05:40:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

A Rare Bit of Truith From Russo (none / 0)

I actually don't give a shit what Lakoff or Huffington say.
Finally, something that can believed!  But you pretend to care a great deal. Otherwise, why mention them?  

Actually, you don't care what anybody says.  You are very much like Bush in this regard. And, like I said (cue Ultraworld), it's symptomatic of NPD.

by Paul Rosenberg on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 05:58:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: At seminars in the former Soviet Union.... (none / 0)

For a Democrat you have an awful lot in common with David Horowitz, whose Discover the Network includes George Galloway, Ward Churchill and Noam Chomsky.

What an amazing coincidence.

by Gary Boatwright on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 02:22:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: At seminars in the former Soviet Union.... (none / 0)

that's because the three people i mention are objectively insane people.  doesn't make me a right wing lunatic.  just makes me observant.
by TimRusso on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 03:29:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The Only One Objectively Insane Seems To Be You! (none / 0)

I've read and listened to a great deal of Chomsky over the years. I don't always agree with his analysis, but he is one of the sanest thinkers I've ever encountered.  Just labelling people that you don't like "objectively insane," is itself an objective symptom of insanity.  

Sane people don't go around using loaded terms like that without offering a single piece of supporting evidence.  My evidence is that you do go around doing that.  You also make a large number of unsupported, factually incorrect statements, delivered arrograntly, as if they were incontrevertable fact, and without regard or response to those who offer cogent, fact-based refutations.  This is broadly symptomatic of narcissistic personality disorder, which Ultraworld goes on about at great length.

To be clear, I'm not saying you are objectively insane, or NPD.  I'm just saying, based on what we've seen, you're the only one who seems to fit the label.  It's an observation of how you conduct yourself here, nothing more, nothing less.

by Paul Rosenberg on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 05:41:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

news flash (none / 0)

Paul,

Democrats lost the 2004 election.  

I rest my case.

by TimRusso on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 05:47:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No Trace Of Logic (none / 0)

You haven't even stated a case, much less made one, much less proved it.

This is exact same "logic" used by wingers pointing to the London bombings as "proof" that Bush is right and his critics are wrong.

Just because something fits into your all-encompassing delusional system of thought doesn't mean it proves it.  It just means that your all-encompassing delusional system of thought really is all-encompassing.

by Paul Rosenberg on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 06:02:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Significant methodological issue (none / 0)

I question the utility of blogads as a data source.  I think they are right, but their market penetration may not be complete or random.

On the other hand, my prior suggestions that you are including Libertarian sites with Republicans are wrong: major libertarian sites are not attached to blogads.

by phillies on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 02:42:12 PM EST

Swing voters (none / 0)

It would seem that many swing voters are just not engaged in politics. Even at election time they tend to make choices based more upon personality, perceived trustworthyness and other intangible factors. The only time issues or events swing them is when they are personally affected. Things like unemployment or being subject to the draft, for example.

This is not to contradict the premise of this posting, but just to point out that a literate, political forum may not be the best way to reach them.

There also seems to be much more interest in discussing events and strategy on blogs rather than policies or long-range planning.
The essays on these topics on my web site don't get much "traction".

---Policies not Politics
Daily Quiet Image
by rdf on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 04:36:34 PM EST

This is what I do with my blog (none / 0)

The "choir" is not limited to just those singing in the blogosphere. Some are still singing in the shower for fear of being shouted down at their family gatherings, shuned by their neighbors, or just out of pure lack of time.

I'm a blog zealot. I read many blogs daily. TV just sucks that bad. So I put together a sort of 'daily pulse' to borrow the title of what strikes me in the blogs, put my sarcastic spin on it, and send it out to my mailing list. Most on the list don't read the blogs much, if at all. Yet they are supportive. They read my blog and gain knowledge and facts quicker than if they continued singing in their showers.

Then they add their friends to my mailing list. The choir gets bigger. It's not like I have any readership of substance yet. But where I had 3 to 5 visitors a day six months ago, now I have 30 to 50. And many are local and now involved more than when they began reading. Be it only forwarding my posts to friends or donating a little to a candidate. My choir is bigger, and I'm just one blogger. Imagine if more bloggers started doing this for their neighbors and friends.

I think Chris is right on here. Expanding the choir should be our focus right now.

Witty comment goes here...
by michael in chicago on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 04:52:59 PM EST

This is really timely (none / 0)

as I'm about to go off to a MoveOn party with obviously self-selected choir members none of whom I have met before (probably).  An energized base is what Dean had in the early days of 04 and what Kerry lacked throughout.

by RevDeb on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 04:53:09 PM EST

Re: This is really timely (none / 0)

both Dean and Kerry lost.
by TimRusso on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 05:18:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This is really timely (none / 0)

yes and there are analyses ad nausum about why. But we all know that running a campaign strictly based on how much we hate the other guy doesn't pull us together in a way that true belief in a candidate will
by RevDeb on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 05:21:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This is really timely (none / 0)

true.  very true.

my 2 cents on the ad nauseum thing.....we lost because of security.  bottom line.  that's the point i've been trying to make since the election.  

until we convince our choir that our security songbook needs to come from John Wayne, not Michael Moore, we will continue to lose.  ad nauseum.  pass that along at the MoveOn party.

by TimRusso on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 05:28:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Do you need another Laptop Chris? (none / 0)

I missed getting in on contributing to your laptop.  

When you post comments like this, which are so damn "on the money", it makes we want to jump for joy that there are people out there that are getting what we have to do.  

Let's review the issue of targeting. Our political objectives require us to think in these terms: base voters and swing voters, right? But our commercial success requires us to target the most valuable customers: the customers who spend the most money and can be acquired at the lowest customer acquisition cost.
...
    * 1- Preach to the choir
    * 2- Activate the choir and generate revenue
    * 3- Use that revenue to target swingers and the unconverted
    * 4- Return to step one with an expanded choir

This is great stuff.  

by lookinforward on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 08:46:01 PM EST

More Activation (none / 0)

You are right on here, and the cycle you pointed out:

    * 1- Preach to the choir
    * 2- Activate the choir and generate revenue
    * 3- Use that revenue to target swingers and the unconverted
    * 4- Return to step one with an expanded choir

Makes a lot of sense (although swing voters has less, um, indelicate connotations than swingers.  

Beyond that, I would modify it just a little:

    * 1- Preach to the choir
    * 2- Activate the choir
             A)generate revenue
             B)promote volunteer activeties
    * 3- Use revenue/activeties:
             A)to target swing voters and the unconverted    
             B)fund party infrastructure including staffing,issue/message research, polling/focus groups, and equipment purchases

    * 4- Return to step one with an expanded choir

I add this because, for the first time, a major portion of funds for Democrats are coming from the same people willing to volunteer.  We should continue to encourage this trend.  A volunteer strapped for cash (believe me, I've been there) won't always be, and a donor who is maxed out will often want to do more.   The key to activation is always keep people active.

I included infrastructure here because, as Bill Bradley pointed out recently, in "A Party Inverted", the Republicans have a pyramidal infrastructure in place all the time, all they have to do each election is change the candidate on top.  The Democrates have the reverse: candiates who have to build a new pyramid each time. I've included the full article below.

Check out Grassroots Democrtats for an organization devoted to building up our infrastructure: www.grassrootsdemocrats.com

Here's the article:

Published on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 by the New York Times
A Party Inverted
by Bill Bradley

Five months after the presidential election Democrats are still pointing fingers at one another and trying to figure out why Republicans won. Was the problem the party's position on social issues or taxes or defense or what? Were there tactical errors made in the conduct of the campaign? Were the right advisers heard? Was the candidate flawed?

Before deciding what Democrats should do now, it's important to see what Republicans have done right over many years. When the Goldwater Republicans lost in 1964, they didn't try to become Democrats. They tried to figure out how to make their own ideas more appealing to the voters. As part of this effort, they turned to Lewis Powell, then a corporate lawyer and soon to become a member of the United States Supreme Court. In 1971 he wrote a landmark memo for the United States Chamber of Commerce in which he advocated a sweeping, coordinated and long-term effort to spread conservative ideas on college campuses, in academic journals and in the news media.

To further the party's ideological and political goals, Republicans in the 1970's and 1980's built a comprehensive structure based on Powell's blueprint. Visualize that structure as a pyramid.

You've probably heard some of this before, but let me run through it again. Big individual donors and large foundations - the Scaife family and Olin foundations, for instance - form the base of the pyramid. They finance conservative research centers like the Heritage Foundation, the Cato Institute and the Intercollegiate Studies Institute, entities that make up the second level of the pyramid.

The ideas these organizations develop are then pushed up to the third level of the pyramid - the political level. There, strategists like Karl Rove or Ralph Reed or Ken Mehlman take these new ideas and, through polling, focus groups and careful attention to Democratic attacks, convert them into language that will appeal to the broadest electorate. That language is sometimes in the form of an assault on Democrats and at other times in the form of advocacy for a new policy position. The development process can take years. And then there's the fourth level of the pyramid: the partisan news media. Conservative commentators and networks spread these finely honed ideas.

At the very top of the pyramid you'll find the president. Because the pyramid is stable, all you have to do is put a different top on it and it works fine.

It is not quite the "right wing conspiracy" that Hillary Clinton described, but it is an impressive organization built consciously, carefully and single-mindedly. The Ann Coulters and Grover Norquists don't want to be candidates for anything or cabinet officers for anyone. They know their roles and execute them because they're paid well and believe, I think, in what they're saying. True, there's lots of money involved, but the money makes a difference because it goes toward reinforcing a structure that is already stable.

To understand how the Democratic Party works, invert the pyramid. Imagine a pyramid balancing precariously on its point, which is the presidential candidate.

Democrats who run for president have to build their own pyramids all by themselves. There is no coherent, larger structure that they can rely on. Unlike Republicans, they don't simply have to assemble a campaign apparatus - they have to formulate ideas and a vision, too. Many Democratic fundraisers join a campaign only after assessing how well it has done in assembling its pyramid of political, media and idea people.

There is no clearly identifiable funding base for Democratic policy organizations, and in the frantic campaign rush there is no time for patient, long-term development of new ideas or of new ways to sell old ideas. Campaigns don't start thinking about a Democratic brand until halfway through the election year, by which time winning the daily news cycle takes precedence over building a consistent message. The closest that Democrats get to a brand is a catchy slogan.

Democrats choose this approach, I believe, because we are still hypnotized by Jack Kennedy, and the promise of a charismatic leader who can change America by the strength and style of his personality. The trouble is that every four years the party splits and rallies around several different individuals at once. Opponents in the primaries then exaggerate their differences and leave the public confused about what Democrats believe.

In such a system tactics trump strategy. Candidates don't risk talking about big ideas because the ideas have never been sufficiently tested. Instead they usually wind up arguing about minor issues and express few deep convictions. In the worst case, they embrace "Republican lite" platforms - never realizing that in doing so they're allowing the Republicans to define the terms of the debate.

A party based on charisma has no long-term impact. Think of our last charismatic leader, Bill Clinton. He was president for eight years. He was the first Democrat to be re-elected since Franklin Roosevelt. He was smart, skilled and possessed great energy. But what happened? At the end of his tenure in the most powerful office in the world, there were fewer Democratic governors, fewer Democratic senators, members of Congress and state legislators and a national party that was deep in debt. The president did well. The party did not. Charisma didn't translate into structure.

If Democrats are serious about preparing for the next election or the next election after that, some influential Democrats will have to resist entrusting their dreams to individual candidates and instead make a commitment to build a stable pyramid from the base up. It will take at least a decade's commitment, and it won't come cheap. But there really is no other choice.

Bill Bradley, a former Democratic senator from New Jersey, is a managing director of Allen & Company.

© 2005 New York Times, Co.

###

by Mudshark on Sun Jul 10, 2005 at 12:07:17 AM EST

Chris Which Choir are you in favor of Preaching 2? (none / 0)

I think thats the key.  

Was gay marriage a choir issue?
Was anti war a choir issue?
Is White Christian Lazy GOP a choir issue?
Is Howard I came in third but somehow I lead the choir a choir issue?

All of these issues move us away from a realistic chance at winning.

Sorry but someone needs to tell the choir to shut the hell up and move to where the people are not where the political insiders aka the choir is.

Either we get wtih the democracy in setting our agenda or we lose lose lose.  Money has a lot less to do with it than most people project.

by donkeykong on Mon Jul 11, 2005 at 04:19:33 AM EST


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