The Daily Pulse: Ranking the Presidents

Sorry I've been AWOL.  Demands of home, work, and family killed me over the weekend.

The last entry here is a ranking of the last 13 Presidents by somebody who lived through them all.  A great deal of thought obviously went in to it, even if I do not agree with it all.  What are your thoughts?

There is also a diatribe about the self-important that is, to me, a perfect analogy for modern-day Republicans.  Look at it, and consider whether it can be easily turned into a useable frame.

Times Journal (Fort Payne, Alabama)

This sort of editorial is a result fo the fantasy that oinions on both sides of an issue are always equally valid.  If this guy really wanted to provide information hec ould ahve looked to the recent study in Florida showing how much MORE Florida pays subsidizing WalMart with Medicaid.

Is shopping at Wal-Mart immoral?

If shopping at Wal-Mart is immoral, I might be in trouble. I shop there a lot. I fuss about not enough people to man the checkout counters, complain about the super- stores being too big to navigate but do I still shop there? Guilty. ...

A recent article on msn.com posed this question: Is shopping at Wal-Mart immoral? According to the article, in the early 90s, business owners on the island of Kodiak, Alaska hired a consultant to analyze how a proposed Wal-Mart store would hurt them.

But the consultant gathering data for the group found how the store would actually help another local group - the poor.

Low-income people there wanted the Wal-Mart because they perceived the store's lower prices as a way to effectively lower their cost of living. ...

Should one shop at a store that has a detrimental effect on the local community? That would be an easy enough question to answer if it weren't so obviously more complex than it appears on the surface.

First, one must satisfactorily answer a tougher question: do Wal-Mart stores really have a detrimental effect on local communities?

Economists, notorious about being unable to agree on much of anything, continue to debate the issue. It really all comes down to personal perspective and choice.

I'll likely continue to shop at Wal-Mart and I doubt it will cause me to think of myself as immoral. Whether or not I should continue to eat at Hooters is another dilemma altogether.

Letters to the Editor

Benton (Arkansas) Courier

All you need to do to figure out who the bad guys fear is to see who makes them vent their spleen the most.  Yes, Dean's comments were explosive, and so were Hillary's.  They were also true.  And we should not be so nervous about it. Remember, we will NEVER move the fundamentalists.  Our target is the "Reagan Democrats," the people that like smaller government and lower taxes, and DO NOT want the government in their bedroom or their church.  Dean's hyperbole is perfectly tuned to their ears.  As an aside, holding up Mehlman as the paragon of Republicanism is hysterical on multiple levels.

Hey, Howard: Them's fightin' words

The average political watcher knew the ascension of Howard Dean to the chairman of the Democratic National Party would yield such entertaining results, but maybe not so soon. ...

Dean has called Republicans "evil," he said he "hated Republicans," they "never worked an honest day in their lives," and they are a "white Christian party." The last comment was news to Ken Mehlman, the GOP Party chairman, who said that those who attended his bar mitzvah should be informed that he heads a white Christian party. ...

Let's get one thing straight: Dean has never had to play nice with anyone. His political history consists of being the governor of a state where the only Republican of any stature switched his allegiance back in 2000. He knows only one speed - out of control. ...

Speaking of 2008, another presidential hopeful, this one with some experience in the White House, unleashed her own tirade against the other side. Hillary Clinton was speaking at a fund-raiser for her Senate campaign in 2006 when she noted that current Republicans were the worst abusers of power ever. With all the attention paid to the revelation of Deep Throat recently, it's funny that she couldn't remember Richard Nixon, the president she investigated as a young lawyer.

Clinton has been making all the appearances of someone jockeying for a presidential position. She has been friendly with the opposition. She has worked on legislation with Republicans, including the aforementioned Gingrich. She has backed the war in Iraq and moved towards the center on abortion issues. But she should realize that every comment she makes from now on will be heard by all, not just a room full of campaign backers. ...

Richard Duke is news editor of the Benton Courier.

News Editor

Daily Breeze (Los Angeles, California)

They really believe just saying something makes it so.  Hw else could you say Democrats could find nothing radical Brown said?  How about her comments equating the New Deal with slavery?!  And why is it inappropriate to consider commetns ABOUT THE LAW made in speeches?  Anybody want to drop them a line?  The link is at the end of the quote.

Democrats played politics with judicial nominee

After several months of particularly bitter debate, Janice Rogers Brown of the California Supreme Court was finally confirmed last week to sit on the prestigious United States Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit. ...

Of course, Senate Democrats and their accomplices will never admit that. How politically correct would that be? So instead they tried to label Rogers Brown a "judicial extremist." But even that didn't hold up. Democrats couldn't come up with much that Rogers Brown had said or written from the bench that sounded extreme. So they were forced to improvise and play to the hilt things that Rogers Brown said off the bench in speeches. Suddenly, the issue was no longer the nominee's capabilities or her judicial temperament. Rather, it became her personal views on controversial issues like affirmative action, natural law and the role of government. ...

So what were Democrats really up to in opposing the nomination of Janice Rogers Brown?

The answer is obvious The Republican Party would get credit for putting another African-American on the federal bench, and black voters might begin to look more favorably at the GOP in future elections. Democrats act like they have a monopoly on enhancing racial diversity and promoting the professional advancement of Hispanics and African-Americans, and they are willing to fight tooth and nail to keep it.

That's the real reason Democrats fought so vociferously against the nomination of Janice Rogers Brown. In the end, they lost. And for that, the country should be thankful.

Letters to the Editor

Gainesville (Florida) Sun

Gwinnett (Gwinnett County, Georgia) Daily Post

Am I the only one to notice that people with a W on their bumpers are far more likely to be selfish than people with Kerry/Edwards stickers?  I hate to simplify to the point of stupidity, but it does seem like people's behavior in traffic magnifies whoever they are, and Republicans tend to be FAR more selfish than Democrats.  And isn't the last paragraph really the best description of Democrats you've read in a while?

We get it; you're more important

You and your Lexus/Acura/Mercedes/Infiniti/Hummer slide over into the emergency lane and drive a half-mile to get to the same light we're all waiting on, thereby creating a logjam when the light turns green. OK - we get it - you're important. ...

Speaking of soccer leagues, you have a big soccer ball magnet on your car. You and your land yacht ran me off the road because you just had to pick up the dry cleaning before Missy and Cody and Dustin got through with soccer/band/karate. I'm just a poor lunch pail kind of a guy, trudging through my boring life. You have the right of way because, after all, you're important.

Speaking of your land yacht, you have a sticker with the name of your church and/or your university in the rear window. I'm sure that God and the University of Georgia are both very proud to be affiliated with the queen of suburbia. Every time you pull out in front of us and go 16 miles an hour while you dig for your phone, it runs through our mind that road rage is sometimes justified. But we swallow it because you're such an important person.

I'm not as full of hate and vitriol as it sounds. But the older I get, the more I realize that in the grand scheme of things we're like fleas stuck on the same dog. We're all subject to the whims of an infinite number of things that are out of our control. We'll all be here until we're brushed out of the grand scheme of things. So how did you arrive at the conclusion that the comfort, convenience and livelihood of you and those you live with have priority above and beyond mine?

Tim Freeman is a resident of Sugar Hill.

The Courier Press

We need to keep pounding this point home- Bush is the biggest spender EVER.  This is how we win.  See the comment above about "Reagan Democrats" and Dean's comments.

A Paler Shade of Red

The White House has announced that the fiscal 2005 federal deficit will be "well below" its February forecast of $427 billion.

Of course, most experts believed that forecast was set way too high to begin with to exaggerate any progress on cutting the deficit. No other major forecast was over $400 billion, and the Congressional Budget Office pegged it at $394 billion.

The White House won't say how much is "well below" until its next scheduled estimate in July, but the CBO and other analysts now say the deficit will be around $350 billion. The idea that a $350 billion deficit is somehow good news would have been inconceivable just four years ago, when the budget was in surplus. ...

White House budget director Joshua Bolten offered another reason for the less-than-expected shortfall: President Bush's "focus on spending discipline."

That should provoke a few chuckles over at the economically conservative Cato Institute, which noted in a report last month that total government spending grew 33 percent in Bush's first term, making him, even in inflation-adjusted dollars, the biggest spender since Lyndon Johnson and the Great Society. ...

The president may make good on his promise to cut the deficit in half over five years, although as a percentage of GDP, not in actual dollars. But after that the deficit will explode because federal spending is fated to explode, thanks to mandated spending on entitlements such as Medicare, Medicaid, prescription drugs and Social Security. Federal spending, as a percentage of GDP, will go from around 20 percent today to 50 percent in the 2040s.

The situation was aptly summed up by CBO Director Douglas Holtz-Eakin, who told The Wall Street Journal, "These are the good ol' days. These are the best of times. After this, it gets worse."

Letters to the Editor

The Gleaner

With age comes perspecgive, if not automatically wisdom.  The opinion of somebody who has been around since the Hoover Administration is worth listening to.  I would rate FDR over Ike, but the writer gave Ike points for service in WWII.  What do you think of his reasoning?  How would you rank them?  You can follow the link for the rest.  Six through eleven are Ford, Reagan, Carter, Bush (I), Nixon, and Hoover.

Current president worst in lifetime

Have you ever wondered who is/was the best president we ever had? Who is/was the worst? Since I was born under Hoover, I do not feel competent to judge all before him. Sure Washington was the first, Lincoln presided over the Civil War, Grant was elected because he led the Union Army, Garfield and McKinley were assassinated. Teddy Roosevelt led "Rough Riders," and Wilson was our World War I president. The stock market crash of 1927 was under Coolidge. Here is my ranking of the 13 presidents I have lived under.

No. 1 is Dwight David Eisenhower. He was supreme commander of Allied forces in Europe in World War II and president over perhaps the only period of normalcy in my lifetime.

No. 2 is Franklin Delano Roosevelt. He came along when America needed him. Perhaps his greatest accomplishment was enactment of Social Security. He also may have been able to prevent our fleet being caught in Pearl Harbor.

No. 3 is Bill Clinton. He presided over, perhaps, the greatest economic boom in our history, balanced the budget and left office with a projected surplus (all gone now).

No. 4 is John F. Kennedy. Although cut short (he would have served two terms) he showed signs of greatness.

No. 5 is Harry Truman. He had the courage to use the A-bomb and its use saved as many as a million or more lives. His biggest mistakes were involving us in the Korean War and firing General Douglas McArthur. ...

That leaves Lyndon B. Johnson and George Bush No. 2. Both men involved us in wars we should have never been or presently be in. Both misled the country as to the reason to be in the wars. Johnson used the Tonkin Gulf incident (which never happened) to greatly escalate the war in Vietnam. Bush No. 2 used weapons of mass destruction, which Iraq had none, to involve us in a war he should have never started.

I put Johnson at No. 12 since he did preside over the 1964 Civil Rights Act.

Bush No. 2 is dead last -- the worst in my lifetime, since I cannot think of one good thing he has done -- that is unless you want to call the Iraq War a good thing.

I call it a disastrous mistake which Americans will be paying for for the next 100 or so years -- in money and ill will.

A.J. Vogel

Henderson

Letters to the Editor



Display:


Fact-checking (none / 0)

While I agree with the conclusion of that last piece, the writer got one of their facts wrong, which makes me question their competence to be assessing these presidents.  The famous stock market crash that caused the Great Depression occurred on October 29, 1929 (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Tuesday) during the presidency of Herbert Hoover, not 2 years earlier under Coolidge.

And I'm not just trying to defend our last president from Vermont, my home state.  The policies of Coolidge -- or rather, his lack of engagement in the forming of sound economic policies -- undoubtedly contributed significantly to the conditions that caused the crash.

Tim Wolfe
by bruorton on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 11:55:20 AM EST

I do not think Walmart is immoral (none / 0)

Let's assume that Walmart did not exist.  People would still shop somewhere, right?  I seriously doubt that the employees of the other stores would make more than Walmart employees-it's just that Walmart is big and successful, so it would be a thousand stores each with three people on public assistance instead of one company with three thousand people.  And, since Walmart is hyper-effiecent, they prove a wider selection of goods to poor people at lower prices, effectively raising the income of those poor people.  Heck, my anti-Chinese-made-good-hatred is even minimal-Chinese are people too, and working in those factory jobs has improved thier standard of living immensely than before when they were working on the farm or whatever.  Plus, with the economy good (don't say it's not), I can't even find domestic problems here.  If the US unemployment rate was 8 or 9 percent, my opinion may have been different, but it's not-it's 5.1%, which is fairly low, especially compared to the rates from 1970's to mid-1990's.

All this being said, they are no Costco.  But I rank them as a neutral as opposed to an extreme evil.  Also consider that a lot of voters think the way this gentleman thinks-attacking something they like is not helpful to our cause.

by Geotpf on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 12:01:42 PM EST

Walmart is immoral (none / 0)

Because they treat their workers like shit.  Buy from them and you fund that shit treatment.  It's that simple.

If the voters don't see that, it's our job to convince them.

As for China - well, I obviously buy goods made in China, because it's difficult to avoid.  But I don't bullshit myself into believing that I'm not buying a product effectively made by slave labor, and neither should anyone else.

Otherwise, Wal-Mart does not put workers on public assistance in proportion to its share of the workforce.  At least in Georgia, a much greater share of Wal-Mart employees are on public assistance than those of the next largest employer, Publix.

by Drew on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 12:17:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The question is... (none / 0)

...do they treat thier workers any more shittily than your average mom and pop (or Target or Kmart)?
by Geotpf on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 12:24:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes. (none / 0)

They do.
by Drew on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 12:27:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: As for China (none / 0)

don't bullshit myself into believing that I'm not buying a product effectively made by slave labor

If you think most goods from China are made by "slave labor" you are seriously misinformed.

Have you ever been there?  I have.  The workers in China are developing into what might be called a (lower) middle class.  Yes, their pay is far below what we might consider but that is in part due to distortions in the currency exchange rate. Their fate is far, far better than their parents who were in many cases urban truly poor or impoverished farmers.  Not to say that poverty does not exist in China, of course it does.  It also exists here.

Go to a Chinese factory making furniture, machinery, cars, clothes, computer chips or whatever and the chances are you will find a well fed, well clothed, highly trained worker efficiently using the latest, most modern equipment with a great deal of pride in their work.

They live in modest, but clean and generally adequate houses and apartments (the managerial class often lives in newer and rather impressive condos), there is plenty of cheap and healthful food in well stocked markets and crowded restaurants, and clothes are stylish and cheap. Gone are the Mao jackets of old, which only old people still seem to favor. They are proud of their economic achievements and have great hope for their kids who are all being educated to take their place in a modern society.

Five or ten dollars a day may seem like slave wages to you, but not when a pair of shoes can be had for 85 cents, a brand new, decent quality bicycle for $30. and a really good dinner in a restaurant with table clothes and excellent service is $3.50 (and that includes a couple of beers). Or, for poorer folks, healthy, delicious, hot meat filled buns are a nickel and make a great lunch and the busses, which are clean and go everywhere,  cost 12 cents. That plus government old age pensions and subsidized housing.

Slave labor?

Get real.

by mjshep on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 03:32:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Eisenhower? (3.00 / 1)

While I wholeheartedly agree with the placement of our current president, the rationale for putting Eisenhower at the top seems a little strange.  The first reason given (his WWII exploits) did not occur when he was president and should have nothing to do with a ranking of greatest presidents.  The fact that he presided over a period of normalcy had very little to do with his own accomplishments and a lot more today with the fact that the war had ended and Harry Truman had done a fabulous job of getting the country rolling again.  Eisenhower did some good things and nothing really bad, but nothing great.  I'd put him 5th or 6th.

One more thing.  It hurts to see LBJ so close to the bottom.  His legislative record was second only to FDR.  Vietnam was bad, but does it have to overshadow all the advances made at home?

by LastSCDem on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 12:24:29 PM EST

Re: Eisenhower? (none / 0)

Eisenhower was a mixed bag.  On the one hand, there were his warnings about the military-industrial complex.  On the other, there was the coup in Iran, and McCarthyism.  I'd have to consider him for the sole act of appointing Earl Warren - on the other hand, Eisenhower wasn't exactly a big supporter of Brown...
by fwiffo on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 02:45:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Eisenhower--No Credit For Warren, Either (none / 0)

Asked about his mistakes, Eisenhower said his two biggest ones were sitting on the Supreme Court.

If he had known what Warren would become, he would have never done it.

You can't very well give a President credit for what he himself regards as a mistake, not because he's bought into someone else's spin, but because it represents a defeat of his true intentions.

by Paul Rosenberg on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 03:06:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Eisenhower- (none / 0)

I think this gentleman is giving presidents credit for the perception of the quality of American life during their term of office.  The early fifties were probably the most optimistic ever.  The relief that the war was over was only matched by our being the richest country in the world, and having the conviction that everyone who kept his nose clean could have a good life.  Maybe he would have felt the same about Kennedy too, but he died and his vice president was, for whatever courage it took to pass the Civil Rights Act, widely known to be corrupt.  I'm sure that would have tainted the Kennedy administration to the writer.
But idealizatin of the Eisenhower years certainly would not have been the perception of most of my family, who emigrated to Costa Rica to escape the jingoism, McCarthyism, and the Korean conflict.  They even got caught in the crossfire in Guatemala when the CIA was helping overthrow the duly elected president.
by prince myshkin on Tue Jun 14, 2005 at 12:50:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Eisenhower? (none / 0)

I agree on LBJ.
by v2aggie2 on Tue Jun 14, 2005 at 01:36:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: LBJ (none / 0)

LBJ accomplished some good things in his presidency but for all the wrong reasons. He was as corrupt as the current administration. Read "Blood, Money, and Power" by Barr McClellan
by BlueStatePride on Tue Jun 14, 2005 at 07:57:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

My favorites (none / 0)

Nobody's list carries any objective weight so here's my opinion:

  1. FDR * understood the 20th century
  2. IKE * above partisanship
  3. Clinton * bottom line
  4. Harry Truman * Foriegn Policy Genius
  5. JFK * Apollo
  6. GHWB * Budget Compromise, New how to withdraw
  7. Reagan * Revitalized America, but too much debt
  8. Carter * too nice to be top dog, but good man
(big drop off)
  1. GWB * mortgages future, why are we still in Iraq?
  2. Nixon * proto-fascist extrodinaire
  3. Johnson * worst president ever?

by Paul Goodman on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 12:50:58 PM EST

Worst Presidential List Ever? (3.00 / 1)

Well, not with FDR at the top. But that's a gimme. Anyone who doesn't have FDR at #1 is just not paying attention. Lincoln comes in 2nd, and from there on you can start debating.  But it's like arguing over rock bands in the mid-60s. It was Beatles, Stones and everyone else.  (Even though I personally preferred the Fugs, the Yardbirds, the Animals and the Who to the Beatles at the time.)

I'm talking about putting LBJ dead last.  This is guy who gave us (1) The Civil Rights Act of 1964, (2) The Voting Rights Act of 1965, (3) Medicare, (4) Head Start, and (5) PBS -- five initiatives that top just about anything you can point to from any other President since FDR.

Now, I was one of those protesters in the streets shouting, "Hey, Hey, LBJ! How many kids did you kill today?"  But you know what? LBJ didn't want that war. He didn't start that war, He wasn't proud of what he was doing. And he honestly tried to end it.

Yes, he looked for and found a reason to escalate it, but that was because he though that otherwise the GOP would crush him and the Democratic Party for being "soft on defense" and for "losing Vietnam" replaying recriminations over China and Korea that were politically devastating, but that most of us have no awareness of.  (Hint: It's the underlying context that made McCarthyism go.)

None of that excuses the tragedy that Johnson brought on. But it does explain it as a bad response to a bad situation.  And it helps to clear the air a bit to put the war into perspective in contrast with his obvious positive accomplishments.

There are many others, btw. But I chose four off the top of my head that even the GOP does not dare to directly bad-mouth, and one (PBS) that they can only bad-mouth due to an enormous, long-standing propaganda campaign, that still enjoys widespread Republican support among the rank-and-file.

Now, if Ike hadn't gotten us into Vietnam--and then subverted the reunification elections. And if Kennedy hadn't deepened our involvement--and left LBJ, a foreign-policy neophyte, with a full set of highly-educated, hawkish advisors, then Vietnam would have been Johnson's war alone, clearly and unambiguously. But it was not. So tarring him with Vietnam alone is not merely grossly unfair. It is simply unsupportable.

by Paul Rosenberg on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 02:01:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Worst Presidential List Ever? (none / 0)

Good points,

And LBJ's social policy, which gave us the Civil Rights Act, Medicare, and Head Start ought to count as positives.

by v2aggie2 on Tue Jun 14, 2005 at 02:08:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

My Own List (none / 0)

  1. FDR- Depression fighter, Social Security, WPA (I don't care what happened, it employed a lot of people and built a lot of good things), WWII, and 13 years.

  2. Truman- finished WWII, the Marshall Plan was really the Truman Plan (as a result, Truman BUILT the modern world), and firing MacArthur was a GOOD idea.

  3. Eisenhower- there is a lot to NOT like about this guy, starting with his VP, but he presided over a post-war America that set the stage for everything to come.  Unlike modern Republicans, he understood the value of the worker, not just the stock market.

  4. LBJ- yes, Vietnam was a cluster-f*. But he did not start it, and he could not end it.  In retrospect it was all bad, but public opinion did not turn until Tet, and by then Nixon had already been elected.  Medicare, Medicaid, WIC, and the rest of the Great Society, as well as the Civil Rights Act, are tremendous legacies.  I rate him below Ike for two reasons.  First, he does have a tremendous amount of responsibility for Vietnam, primarily his attempt to have "guns and butter," to create the Great Society while fighting a war.  And second, for quitting.  He should have stayed, taken on Nixon, and if he won removed us from Vietnam several years earlier.  As it was, '68 was Nixon vs. a sub.

  5. Clinton- fabulous economy, and not all just a bubble.  Ultimately was hamstrung by the Republican hate-fest, and will drop in rankings for reduced results, and for not pre-empting terror (though I blame Republicans for the whole "wag the dog" environment that kept him from being able to act).

  6. GHW Bush- it's popular to hate him for his son, but he did some necessary things.  He was perhaps the last Republican EVER to raise taxes.  From now on, it will be a permanent cycle- Republicans create huge deficits (teenagers partying while the parents are away), and Democrats do the dirty work to fix them.  He also had the foresight to provide support to the new government behind the crumbling Iron Curtain.

  7. JFK- a lot of people rank him higher, but his two greatest achievements were the space program (his legacy, and a great one), and dying young to remembered forever in his prime.  The Bay of Pigs was a disaster, we "won" the Cuban Missile Crisis by giving up our own nukes in Turkey, and he started us down the path toward Vietnam.

  8. Ford- He didn't f* up, and he had to follow Nixon.

  9. Reagan- it kills me to say anything nice about this evil man, but he was certainly a force to be reckoned with. He spent the Soviets into premature self-destruction, but we all paid the price.  He too, unlike the present Republicans, finally acknowledged the need to raise taxes, and did so, permitted reality to trump ideology.

  10. Carter- He is a wonderful individual, and the economy of the time was not his fault.  Many of the present controls over the economy were created as a result of that time, and did not exist then.  Also, he really got the brunt of OPEC's first significant muscle flexing, and we did not have the ability as a nation to respond at that time.  All that said, his legacy is made up almost entirely of hostages, high interest rates, and a missed Olympics.

  11. GW Bush- Liar, theocrat, fool.  The only President I know of who intentionally took us into an unecessary war based upon lies, WHILE AT THE SAME TIME IGNORING THE REAL THREAT.  Isn't that the biggest issue- bin Laden is still running around, and al Qaeda continues to recruit, while we get sucked in to Iraq?  His tax policy is intended to create serfdom, and his religious policy to create theocracy.  Ultimately, given his way, he will destroy the America I know.

by dhonig on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 01:35:17 PM EST

Eisenhower, Not JFK, Started Vietnam War (3.00 / 1)

Eisenhower is over-rated by everyone, it seems, simply in contrast to how utterly wretched later Republican presidents were.  But he benefited enormously from McCarthyism, which then turned his back on when it had outlived its political usefulness.

He got us involved in Vietnam by (1) aiding the French, (2) undermining the Geneva Accords by not signing them, (3) further undermining them by subverting the reunification elections, (4) establishing a puppet government, (4) providing the first US military and intelligence aid, and (5) brining us to the brink of war in neighboring Laos, which would have plunged the whole of Southeast Asia into war--which his Vice President, Nixon, eventually accomplished during his time in office.

Another aspect of the "normalcy" he helped to establish was the very military-industrial complex that he railed against.  Ira Chernus is the dude to read on Eisenhower's true legacy.

Truman should also go down several notches due to (1) the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and (2) his role in fomenting the Red Scare with his pre-McCarthy "security measures."  

Finally, the new charge against LBJ--quitting and letting Nixon win. Well, that's only because Nixon committed treason by interfering with the negotiation of a peace deal, which would have gotten Humphrey elected.  

I actually give LBJ points for quitting. I think it was very difficult for him to do. But it was a rare example of someone with enormous ego still being able to see beyond it--a rare enough thing in everyday life, and virtually unheard of in American politics.  It was, in fact, inextricably linked with his attempt to end the war. Since almost as many people died under Nixon as died under LBJ, Johnson should also be remembered for trying to save all those lives.  It was Nixon's treasonous skullduggary that thwarted him.

by Paul Rosenberg on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 02:17:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I don't get the infatuation with Ike either (none / 0)

People seem to place him highly simply because he didn't do too much.  His prime achievements, after all, was his freaking farewell address and the Little Rock integration, which was court-ordered.  

I'd be inclined to rank him very lowly just because he kept Adlai Stenvenson from being President.  Nothing makes me sadder than wondering what might have been with 8 years of President Stevenson leading the country.

"You say the world has lost it's love I say embrace what it's made of" -Dar Williams
by Valatan on Tue Jun 14, 2005 at 12:11:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Eisenhower, Not JFK, Started Vietnam War (none / 0)

And he also sent the CIA after Patrice Lumumba, sending the Congo into a 30-year nightmare they're still trying to wake up from.
by d52boy on Tue Jun 14, 2005 at 10:05:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

uh . . . 50-year nightmare (none / 0)


by d52boy on Tue Jun 14, 2005 at 10:12:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My Own List (none / 0)

Nixon? I noticed he was not on this list.
by liberal atheist on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 02:44:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My Own List (none / 0)

You're right.  Nixon is a terribly mixed bag.  Economically, he was a raging liberal compared to today's Republicans.  Other than Vietnam, he was good on foreigh policy- it really did take a Nixon to go to China.  But Vietnam, Vietnamization, and Cambodia were unmitigated disasters.  The result of Nixon's Vietnam was the destruction of our army and our international credibility.  The result of Nixon's evil paranoia was a national cynicism that ultimately permitted people to vote for and support the present Bush in the face of obvious lies.  His "southern strategy" not only led to Republican dominance, it led to institutionalized racism as politics.

The latter outweighs the former, and as a result Nixon must be scored near the bottom, north of GWBush, but beneath the rest.

by dhonig on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 02:55:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Eisenhauer presided over normalcy? (3.00 / 1)

The McCarthy era was normal???  God help us!
by Drummond on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 01:42:25 PM EST

President rankings (2.75 / 4)

Criteria:

  1. Economic policy - economic growth, unemployment, inflation, poverty and inequality reduction, environmental protection, fiscal "responsibility," workers' rights

  2. Foreign policy - did the guy leave the country's international reputation higher than when he took office? Did he keep us out of war? If we did fight, how successful were we? How successful was he at tackling issues like global poverty, human rights, environmental problems in a responsible way?

  3. Social policy - what steps were taken to increase equality for African Americans, women, gays and lesbians, and other discriminated against groups? What happened to social indicators like crime rates, divorce rates, teen pregnancy rates, etc.

  4. Personal charcteristics - honesty, trustowrthiness, likeability, charisma,

FDR
  economic policy A
  foreign policy  A
  social policy   B-
  personal char   A-

  PPA = 3.60

Beat back the Great Depression, won World War II, put in place the institutions that made possible the postwar economic boom, dragged feet on racial equality; extremely charismatic but not always completely honest with people.

Truman
  economic policy B+
  foreign policy  A
  social policy   B+
  personal char   C+

  PPA = 3.23

Truman actually has the best economic indicators of any postwar President, even though he dropped the ball on expanding the New Deal, and appointed cronies instead of New Dealers to most domestic policy cabinet positions. Set the framework and institutions for the foreign policy that won the Cold War, although he stumbled in Korea. Personally honest, but not too charismatic and not always popular in his own time (although he is beloved today).

Eisenhower
  economic policy C
  foreign policy  B+
  social policy   C
  personal char   B+

  PPA = 2.65

Economy pretty much tanked under Eisenhower (2 recessions, high unemployment and slow growth), which was the economic basis of JFK's call to get the country "moving again." Did manage to keep his Secretary of State John Foster Dulles and other assorted wignuts from blowing up the world, no small feat. Dragged feet on civil rights. Personally honest, likeable, popular, capable of speaking truth to power (e.g. military/industrial complex warning in farewell speech) but too little too late and who was listening anyway?

Kennedy
  economic policy C+
  foreign policy  B
  social policy   C+
  personal char   A-

  PPA = 2.83

Really deserves incompletes here, of course. Dragged feet in every area, but showing signs of progressive life in every area before his death. Extremely charismatic, popular both here and abroad; even my mom, who is now a rock-ribbed Republican, loves the guy.

Johnson
  economic policy A-
  foreign policy  F
  social policy   A
  personal char   F

  PPA = 1.93

Great Society achieved full employment (for awhile, anyway), reduced poverty and inequality, made strides in civil rights, education, environmental protection, etc. Pissed it all away on a stupid war. "Guns and butter" policy stoked the fires of inflation. Rising crime and urban unrest. Inventor of the "credibility gap"; need I say more?

Nixon
  economic policy B
  foreign policy  A
  social policy   D
  personal char   F

  PPA = 2.00

If the guy had just quit after 1 term he would be among the great peacetime Presidents ever - EPA, OSHA, serious proposals for a guaranteed income and universal health insurance (both killed by congressional liberals, unfortunately), liberals might have taken a closer look at his wage and price controls as an alternative to stratospheric interest rates and deindustrialization as an anti-inflation policy. Oh well. Did I mention detente and the opening to China? Of course, he also invented the political strategy of using race as a cudgel to beat back political opponents. Has any single individual done more to create the divisive American politics of the last 30 years?

Ford
  economic policy C+
  foreign policy  C
  social policy   C
  personal char   B+

  PPA = 2.40

Again, probably deserves incompletes here, although Ford was the most successful inflation-fighting president of the postwar period (does he get all the credit?). Guess those WIN (Whip Inflation Now) buttons really did do the trick. Deserves high kudos for personal integrity in leading the country through a troubling time.

Carter
  economic policy C
  foreign policy  C
  social policy   B
  personal char   B-

  PPA = 2.43

Although many of his proposals on budget, energy, industrial, and other policy areas foreshadowed the future, he stumbled in implementing just about everything. Appointment of Volcker and resulting recessionary monetary policy finished Democrats as the party of sound economic management. Vacillated between human-rights progressivism and anti-Soviet militarism in foreign policy. Iran debacle destroyed liberal credibility on foreign policy for a generation. Personally morally upright and honest, but for the most part quite unpopular during his term.

Reagan
  economic policy D
  foreign policy  B+
  social policy   F
  personal char   A-

  PPA = 2.00

Deserves credit for taking the opening that Gorbachev made possible for ending the Cold War, against the advice of his more wingnut advisers I might add. Unfortunately turned tax cuts, deficits, and debt into a religion for the Republican party. Fiddled while huge swathes of US industry dropped dead (he probably liked it that way). Probably the most corrupt administration since Harding, although Reagan himself managed to float above it all.

Bush I
  economic policy D
  foreign policy  A
  social policy   B
  personal char   B

 PPA = 2.75

Won the First Persian Gulf War, working through and with the UN and a huge international coalition (whom he also convinved to reimburse us for more than the war actually cost, neat trick). Clueless on economic policy. Signed the Americans with Disabilities Act. Personally honest and quirkily likeable.

Clinton
  economic policy A-
  foreign policy  B-
  social policy   C
  personal char   B-

 PPA = 2.78

Did manage to preside over the greatest economic boom since the 1960s, and his fiscally responsible budget policy did play a role (although a highly overestimated one). We're still dealing with the excesses of the "bubbble period," though. Social indicators like crime rates, poverty rates, also improved. Managed to avoid major wars, although dragged feet about Bosnia and totally dropped the ball in Rwanda. Extremely likeable and popular, although dishonest in dealing with private matters (his administration was far less corrupt, it must be said, than any of Nixon, Reagan, or Bush II).

Bush II
  economic policy C-
  foreign policy  C-
  social policy   C-
  personal char   B-

 PPA = 1.85

Tax cuts probably did provide some short-term stimulus, but at what long-term cost? Fundamentally harmful and dishonest in almost every area of policy. Only redeeming feature is that people (at least 51% of them anyway) seem to like him for some reason, and so far he has avoided really major domestic or foreign policy disasters. Thanx Fox News!

Final Standings

  1.  FDR     3.60  A-
  2.  Truman  3.23  B+
  3.  Kennedy 2.83  B-
  4.  Clinton 2.78  B-
  5.  Bush I  2.75  B-
  6.  Eisenho 2.65  B-
  7.  Carter  2.43  C+
  8.  Ford    2.40  C+
  9.  Reagan  2.00  C
  10.  Nixon   2.00  C
  11.  LBJ     1.93  C
  12.  Bush2   1.85  C

by tgeraghty on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 01:45:51 PM EST

Re: President rankings (3.00 / 1)

I like this one because of the more detailed analysis (relatively - obviously much more could be said). There are some rankings I would change - for some reason I find most of these to be in the personal characteristics area. I would boost Carter and Johnson in this area. Carter seems to be a basically good guy - I would probably raise him to at least a B+ on character (basically agree on the other categories). Johnson wasn't great on character, but I would probably raise him to at least a D, saving F for egregious cases (Nixon is the only one on the list who I would currently give an F in this category). I would drop Bush II to at least a C- in character because he is truly dishonest - people like him because he is perceived as tough (I think bully is more accurate) and seems like a regular guy. I suspect a lot more will come out about our current President that may deflate his current popularity.
by liberal atheist on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 02:40:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: President rankings (none / 0)

Obviously, my rankings are no less idiosyncratic than anyone else's, even though I tried to come up with uniform crieria for each person. What would be really neat is for everyone on the site to do some kind of uniform ranking, then average it out and see what the collective comes up with.

There's lots of ratings that could change. I downgraded Clinton on social policy because of welfare deform and because he just talked about race rather than doing anything about it (Arkansas didn't even have a civil rights law until after he left office), but given some of his appointments and his undeniable popularity among blacks, did I downgrade him too much?

And does Carter really deserve a "B" on social policy? Maybe I overrated him here? You could write whole books on these subjects (and people have).

by tgeraghty on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 02:59:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: President rankings (none / 0)

It's too early to give Bush 43 Fs in econ and foreign policy, but I say he get tenative Ds with the potential to move up or, more likely, down a grade.

I'd be tempted to give Bush a better social policy grade, but kinda agree him and Clinton should be close in this category. For Clinton's good intentions, he largely did symbolic stuff. Bush did the symbolic too.

For Bush's gay bashing, he's been mild on policy. Now SCOTUS appointments could change this.

I'm not wild about the "character" grade, but I see Bush as overrated here too.

I have to slam Clinton on foreign policy. I give him a D. He squandered post-Cold War opportunities and his vision for economic globalization was flawed.

Bush 41 deserves a better grade on economic policy. He did make a deal to raise taxes and cut spending.

I'd actually gig Bush 41 on foreign policy. Partially on Yugoslavia. But I think he's really botched the elder statesman role. Bush 41 deserves significant credit for getting the country on the wrong track on economic globalization.

Kevin Drum did make the case Reagan did raise taxes to counter the deficit spending. I'd be tempted to give Reagan at least a "C-" on economic policy.

I'm uncomfortable giving Reagan a B+ on foreign policy. He changed foreign policy in a way that was dangerous. He succeeded in replacing substance with style which set up our current mess.

I want to like Jimmy Carter and he probably deserves more credit for economic policy, especially appointing Volcker to the Fed and warning about deficits.

Carter has been a great former Prez, but I don't think he was a good decision maker. I'd be tempted to reduce his character grade.

Nixon an "A" in foreign policy!? No way. Opening China only goes so far. Vietnam, Cambodia, Chile, etc. China may save Tricky Dick from getting an "F", but I can't go higher than "C-".

I'd reduce Johnson's economic policy grade. Spending on the Vietnam War hurt the economy later. Also, his Great Society innovations didn't hold the way FDR's innovations held.

Johnson was weak on the Vietnam War, but it seems unfair to give him an "F" for character. D+?

I think it would come out:

  1. FDR - A-
  2. Truman - A-
  3. JFK - B
  4. Ike - B
  5. Bush I - C+
  6. Clinton - C+
  7. Carter - C
  8. Ford - C-
  9. Reagan - C-
  10. LBJ - D+
  11. Nixon - D
  12. Bush II - Incomplete

Rrrinnggg... Time to change the government.
by Carl Nyberg on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 02:47:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: President rankings (none / 0)

Points well taken. I did forget about Nixon's underhanded foreign policy adventures in places like Chile, but I'd have to put him at least in the B range because of detente and China, and because, while I would not have been happy with the way he prosecuted Vietnam, public opinion for the most part was happy with it, and I think that should figure in any rankings.

Also disagree with downgrading Clinton so far on foreign policy; he didn't make major departures but he avoided major mistakes too.

Agree with your point on Bush I and the deficit deal. That totally slipped my mind, and I should have probably put him in the C range just for that alone (at least, since he really ought to be given partial credit for the Clinton boom to the extent that fiscal responsibility was a cause of it).

by tgeraghty on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 03:07:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Clinton foreign policy (none / 0)

What mistakes did Clinton avoid?

Clinton did much of the groundwork for the Iraq invasion. Pulling the inspectors out of Iraq was a disaster in hindsight.

He botched Israel-Palestine.

He spoke against the bad aspects of the WTO, but didn't do anything about it.

And he squandered the opportunity to make the United Nations more effective. He preferred to blame the UN for problems in Somalia that were the fault of the Clinton administration and in Yugoslavia for problems that were the fault of the US, UK and France.

And then there was the genocide in Rwanda where Clinton preferred to let 800,000 die rather than squander political capital.

And even his "successes" in Haiti and Yugoslavia have significant downsides. In Haiti he allowed the Right to stop Aristide from governing effectively. And Serbs live as prisoners in Kosovo and Croatia got away with a land grab with the help of the UN an NATO.

Rrrinnggg... Time to change the government.
by Carl Nyberg on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 03:26:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton foreign policy (3.00 / 1)

Well, I guess we could argue forever about this stuff. I'd classify major mistakes as unnecessary wars, or Carter-style Iran screw-ups, and Clinton just didn't have anything like that in my opinion.

But I do have one question, although it maybe be opening a can of worms as big as the universe: how exactly did Clinton "botch" Israel-Palestine? I can't think of any president, with the possible exceptions of Carter and Bush I, who came closer and/or did more work toward getting the two sides to a final agreement. But I may not be fully informed on the issue.

by tgeraghty on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 03:38:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Israel-Palestine (none / 0)

If Clinton wasn't willing to "make them an offer they couldn't refuse" he should have punted on the Barack-Arafat meeting.

The State Dept should have figured out the problem was intractable.

Clinton shoulda said, "fuck AIPAC" and imposed a solution through the UN Security Council. Neither side is willing to embrace an agreement that doesn't acknowledge each was the greater victim in the conflict.

The United States would be more secure today. Some Israelis and Palestians would have been pissed at the time, but in the end the overwhelming majorities on both sides would have been thankful.

Dragging the conflict out over decades has been a major failure of the international community, primarily the United States.

If Clinton wasn't willing to put his own nuts in a vice, he shouldn't have brought Barack and Arafat together.

Rrrinnggg... Time to change the government.
by Carl Nyberg on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 03:49:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Israel-Palestine (none / 0)

I disagree.
How do you impose your will on two countries without a major backlash?

Barak put his ass on the line, knowing he was in trouble back home.  He gave Arafat East Jeruselem as the capital.

Can we finally expose Arafat for the joke that he is?  He didn't even care that his actions helped get Sharon elected.  My guess is that he welcomed it...it kept him as a "revolutionary"

And of course, there is the awful job he did going after his own terrorists, Hamas.

by v2aggie2 on Tue Jun 14, 2005 at 01:58:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

define "major backlash" (none / 0)

If the UN Security Council told Israel to cede all territory beyond the 1967 border and the Palestinians and Arabs have to drop all territorial grievances, what would Israel do?

Would it use its military to fight the decision?
Would it use its nukes?
Would it engage in terrorism again?

Or would it just do a bunch of whining and use AIPAC to fuck the President and his party?

Rrrinnggg... Time to change the government.
by Carl Nyberg on Tue Jun 14, 2005 at 12:33:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: define "major backlash" (none / 0)

You're assuming that this will just happen.

There are UN resolutions in Kashmir as well.
And they hold no value, really.

by v2aggie2 on Wed Jun 15, 2005 at 12:24:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: define "major backlash" (none / 0)

So Israel shouldn't have to comply with any international law until American Jews are convinced every other international law is being enforced.

Is this an accurate summary of your argument?

BTW, answer the question. What is your definition of "backlash"?

Rrrinnggg... Time to change the government.
by Carl Nyberg on Wed Jun 15, 2005 at 11:07:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: define "major backlash" (none / 0)

"So Israel shouldn't have to comply with any international law until American Jews are convinced every other international law is being enforced.
Is this an accurate summary of your argument?"

Uh, where did you get this from?

What makes you think that the Palestinians will accept a deal?  Arafat killed the deal in 2000 because he wanted the right to return.

And Abbas has reiterated this.

Does the resolution allow for this?

by v2aggie2 on Thu Jun 16, 2005 at 12:55:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

what if Israel gave Palestinians what they want? (none / 0)

What if Israel gave the Palestinians almost everything they wanted?

  • 1967 borders
  • liberal right of return
  • either divided Jerusalem with a turnover of settlements around East Jerusalem or a jointly administered Jerusalem

In exchange Palestinians would have to recognize it as the final deal and Hamas would have to renounce violence.

(Of course the Jewish theologians would have to renounce interpretations that say God gave the Jews the right to expell gentiles from Israel/Palestine.)

There would be some sort of truth and reconciliation process.

Arab governments plus Iran, Pakistan, Malaysia and Indonesia would have to endorse the deal and commit to repudiating anti-Jewish and anti-Israel propaganda in the past.

The US media would also be required to do self-examination of how it provided biased coverage of the conflict.

Israeli settlers would have a choice of living in Palestine or receiving a financial incentive to begin anew in Israel or another country.

Palestinians would also be given money to begin their lives anew in either Palestine or someplace else.

Why doesn't Israel offer something like this?

Because it wants to annex the land, right?

Rrrinnggg... Time to change the government.
by Carl Nyberg on Thu Jun 16, 2005 at 11:42:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

what if Israel gave Palestinians what they want? (none / 0)

With regards to the 1967 borders, I think that Israel would be amenable on this subject if security is truly addressed.  Remember, it was Arab aggression that started that episode.

Right to return is relative.
It isn't feasible to uproot someone else from specific property, but a right to live in Israel is certainly justified.

Jeruslem was addressed by Barak in the Camp David talks, so I would see no major obstacles here.

Getting Hamas to renouce violence seems hard, since they don't even recognize Israel's right to exist, and have made this very clear.

I don't see why Iran, Pakistan, Malaysia, and Indonesia should have any say here.  They are irrelevant in this discussion.

by v2aggie2 on Fri Jun 17, 2005 at 02:47:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

duality of American Jewish attitudes (none / 0)

If your position were the Israeli gov't position this would be over.

You are so much more generous than the Israeli gov't.

But you see the Palestinians as being the obstacle to a settlement.

There's a cognitive dissonance with American Jews. Individually, they support reasonable peace agreements. But when interpretting actual peace agreements large percentages of them buy into the Israeli gov't position which is much more hardline than what they want as individuals.

This duality of American Jewish opinion is frustrating on a couple levels. One is the obvious. But it's also frustrating that nobody is talking about it.

Rrrinnggg... Time to change the government.
by Carl Nyberg on Fri Jun 17, 2005 at 11:25:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: duality of American Jewish attitudes (none / 0)

Well Hamas IS a major obstacle.
How do you deal with them?

By the way, I'm not suggesting that Israel is blameless.  Far from it.  I have no side in this at all.

I still think that the additional countries you listed have no say in this.  They have no relation to this conflict.

by v2aggie2 on Fri Jun 17, 2005 at 10:57:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hamas (none / 0)

If Israel offered this deal, Hamas would have little to no popular support if it played an obstructionist role.

Israel has never offered the Palestinians a good deal.

Rrrinnggg... Time to change the government.
by Carl Nyberg on Sat Jun 18, 2005 at 01:23:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hamas (none / 0)

What were the problems when Barak and Arafat met in 2000.  What made it a "bad deal?"

Do you really think that this deal will stop Hamas?

by v2aggie2 on Sat Jun 18, 2005 at 01:50:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

why other countries included (none / 0)

I throw in the other Muslim countries so that Israel and Jews will get a fair shake in Musmlim media around the world.
Rrrinnggg... Time to change the government.
by Carl Nyberg on Fri Jun 17, 2005 at 11:26:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton foreign policy (none / 0)

How about Arafat?

He had peace if he wanted it.

But he didn't want it

by v2aggie2 on Tue Jun 14, 2005 at 01:51:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton foreign policy (none / 0)

Yeah, you're right. Israel wants peace and Arafat's ghost keeps Israel from making peace.

The fact that Israel annexes the land little by little has nothing to do with Israel's unwillingness to sign a deal.

I know because American Jews keep saying it over and over again. "What about Arafat?"

Rrrinnggg... Time to change the government.
by Carl Nyberg on Tue Jun 14, 2005 at 12:31:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton foreign policy (none / 0)

Well, you were talking about the Clinton foreign policy.

Arafat was around for that; there was no ghost

by v2aggie2 on Wed Jun 15, 2005 at 12:16:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: President rankings (none / 0)

Oh, and as for Carter's economic policy, anybody who blows any chance at reelection by scheduling a recession in the middle of the campaign ain't makin' out of the C range as far as I'm concerned. Nixon and Reagan didn't make that mistake, and neither did Bush II for that matter.

I'm a little idiosyncratic on this point though, since the conventional wisdom is that Volcker wrung inflation out of the economy, and so Carter ought to be given credit for appointing him, but I think there were alternatives.

Plus you have to figure in the costs of the tight money policy - double-digit unemployment, an overvalued dollar, deindustrialization of the rust belt, and so forth.

by tgeraghty on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 03:15:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Very Detailed, But... (none / 0)

See my numerous comments about reality vs. myth re LBJ and various Republicans. Garbage In, Garbage Out, as they say in the trade.

Let's just say that if Clinton and Reagan had swithced land deals, Clinton would still be doing time.

by Paul Rosenberg on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 03:11:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Very Detailed, But... (3.00 / 1)

As for LBJ and Vietnam, he's the one who escalated it beyond the point of no return, not Ike or JFK.

Nobody made LBJ lie about the Gulf of Tonkin, nobody made him prosecute the war in such a disingenuous manner, and the credibility gap was not just the creation of a right-wing media machine.

I would argue that no single issue, with the possible exception of Watergate, did more to sour Americans on its government as a repository of trustworthiness and capacity for positive social action as did Vietnam. No single issue has more divided Democrats (and continues to do so) than has foreign policy as a direct result of Vietnam, as you well know. Johnson's failure there has made possible the painting of liberals as ineffectual at best, and traitors at worst, on foreign policy and defense issues.

That a pretty grim legacy to defend, regardless of what Johnson did in the economic and social realm. And you can't just blame it on Ike and JFK.

by tgeraghty on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 03:26:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Amnesia, Inc. (3.00 / 1)

I'm afraid that this account utterly ignores the factors leading up to the Vietnam War, factors that go all the way back to the end of WWII, in which, of course, Ho Chi Minh was an OSS agent.

It also ignores the entire dynamic of GOP foreign policy going back into the 20s and the 30s, which used isolationism as a shield for supporting the growth of fascism, while attacking liberals as weak-willed traitors, a good 30-40 years before LBJ took over as President.

It has long been known that Johnson didn't want to fight in Vietnam, but felt compelled to do so. The full-scale explanation of this came out in the only book that examines Vietnam through the lens of Senate-White House Politics, A Grand Delusion: America's Descent into Vietnam by Robert Mann, a long-time Senate staffer who rose to be John Breaux's communications chief.

Publishers Weekly says:

Mann, a former Senate aide, puts Senate-president politics at the center of this masterful political history of America's involvement in Vietnam, which began with Truman's commitment to support the French in the wake of charges of "losing" China to the Communists.

Many of the senators who attacked the Truman administration were isolationists who voted against the realistic anti-Communist institutions such as NATO and the Marshall Plan. Yet such contradictions mattered little, as the Democrats' disastrous political defeat in 1950 and 1952 convinced them to never let another "loss" be blamed on them.

The twin strands of ideological surrealism and political realism interweave throughout Mann's account in various forms, illuminating the persistent patterns and underlying motivational logic of presidential lies and congressional acquiescence. Eisenhower promised to end Truman's containment policy, but he delivered the Korean armistice and refused to fight in Vietnam. Two major congressional resolutions authorizing use of force led to the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution.

Johnson promised "no wider war" while escalating for fear of "losing" Vietnam. Mike Mansfield - the Senate's foremost Asia authority, as well as majority leader - opposed America's deepening involvement, but his concept of his institutional role made him publicly loyal to Johnson's policies, which in private he strove mightily to change. Each participant responded distinctively to fundamental contradictions, brilliantly elucidated by Mann's highly nuanced account of presidential policy and the tortured evolution of Senate opposition. This book's unique perspective in illuminating Congress's role in the Vietnam War should permanently alter and deepen our understanding of that conflict.

The point of quoting this in full is that Mann's history gives us an institutional view of how political forces played out, it marked contrast to the individual focus that tends to distort our understanding of the contexts of assumption, expectation and past relationships which are often so vital to understanding why things happen.  One cannot honestly read Mann's account and come away blaming LBJ as is so routinely done. Instead, one sees him as but one of many actors all of whom bore institutional and collective responsibility.  It's far too easy to scapegoat Johnson, and delude ourselves into ignoring the much broader culpability that lies with the entire political structure of our nation.

Finally, LBJ did not lie about the Gulf of Tonkin in the sort of straight-forward manner that you suggest. The first reports were clear--and wrong. He went with them, rather than reversing course when the second reports said, 'wait a minute, we're not sure what happened.'  This is not to excuse him. Rather, it's to call attention to the similarity between what he did, and what we do when we oversimplify in order to hold him solely and uniquely responsible.  

It would all be so much easier if things worked that way. But they don't. It is rare indeed to find major historical figures that can be held uniquely responsible in this way.  LBJ is not one of them. (Bush II arguably is, despite the plethora of enablers and promoters around him, due primarily to the personal over-determination of his decision to invade Iraq.  But that's a discussion for another time.)

Johnson, IMHO, is a true tragic figure, which is rare in American politics. To be a true tragic figure, one must first be a great person. We all have flaws. It's only the great among us who's flaws can lead to true tragedy.  Mostly, we just the blackest of black farce. As with the current crowd of non-entities.

by Paul Rosenberg on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 06:54:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Amnesia, Inc. (none / 0)

I just don't find these accounts of LBJ as a helpless victim of institutional forces beyond his control believable, given what I know about his political career and his actions as Senate majority leader, for instance.

You want to give him all the benefit of the doubt -- the master politician who got Medicare and civil rights passed where others failed, who took risks on domestic politics where his predecessors feared to tread, was also the helpless victim of a McCarthyite "who lost China" politics that left him no choice but to escalate in Vietnam. I'm sorry, but I'm not buying it.

Vietnam 1964 was not China 1950. If there was any moment that an American political leader could take stock of where doctrinaire Cold War thinking was leading and reversing course, it was LBJ in the wake of his smashing 1964 victory. The right wing was dead, there was no McCarthy around to blame Democrats for losing Vietnam. Besides, China was one of the largest and most important nations in the world; Vietnam was far, far  less important strategically. LBJ should have pulled out and proclaimed "it just doesn't matter" if Vietnam goes communist. It's not as if there weren't voices (Mansfield, George Ball, among others) telling him to do just that.

LBJ was not just "one of many actors all of whom bore institutional and collective responsibility" for the debacle in Vietnam. He was the main protagonist in the story. He had a choice to make in the wake of the 1964 elections: escalate, and prosecute a war he knew he could never win; or pull out, take the short-term damage from the right, at a time when liberal political power was at its peak, and move on from there. Johnson made the wrong choice. He was a tragic figure for sure, but he was not a helpless victim.

But not only that, and this is a point that you don't address, the way in which he prosecuted the war, the lies (not just on Tonkin Gulf, but on every aspect of how well we really were doing there, with distinct parallels to what the Bush propaganda machine is doing now in Iraq), the "credibility gap," helped destroy public confidence in government which still hamstrings liberalism today.

Even more, the perceived liberal failure to "go the distance" in Vietnam opened the door for right-wing charges that liberals are wimps and traitors. So if LBJ's calculation was to avoid another round of "Who lost China? Why, wimpy traitorous liberals did!", you must say he failed dismally at that. He brought on his party the very thing he was supposedly trying to avoid. Surely such a master politician should have been able to foresee that that was by far the most likely outcome of escalation in Vietnam.

by tgeraghty on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 08:58:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Conservative vs. Liberal Mindset (none / 0)

You are stuck in a conservative mindset of individualist analysis. In that mindset, the opposite of holding Johnson fully accountable is painting him as "a helpless victim of institutional forces beyond his control," and nothing I can say can budge you out of it.

But, for the benefit of those listening in, who are not so trapped, my point should be clear: You MUST understand a social context first, in order to have any chance of soundly evaluating the individual.  If everyone is running in one direction, it may take more than incredible courage and fortitude to say, "Stop!"  It may also take being able to see something that others do not.  And there may be good reason why you are not particularly well equiped to do that.  

Johnson had limited foreign policy knowledge or expertise. He was surrounded by Kennedy men, whom he both despised, and felt intellectual inferior to.  Little did he know--because Kennedy kept him out of the loop--but Kennedy himself did not trust their judgment on Vietnam, and had resiseted it mightily...but not quite mightily enough.

I'm not saying that Johnson bares no responsibility. Clearly he does. But trying to lay it all onto him is a form of scapegoating that lets an the entire political class off the hook. And I think that's way too narrow a focus.  The culpability was much more widespread than that.

OTOH, the things Johnson can count as positive accomplishments are largely things that (a) He cared about deeply. (b) He knew a lot about, not just from a policy POV and a passing-legislation POV, but from a personal POV as well. (c) He voluntarily chose to make a priority. (d) He got passed when very few others--if anyone--possibly could have.

Thus, there is a rational basis--not an arbitrary one--for saying that he is more directly and individually responsible for his domestic legislative accomplishments than he is for the Vietnam War.  

This is not, not, not, NOT, a moral apology for his part in Vietnam.  Quite the opposite. It is a demand that we not saddle him with the quilt and responsibility that many more besides him must also share.  And,ultimately, it is a demand on us, that we not use such simplistic scapegoating to let ourselves off the hook in working to stop the current replay of Vietnam that we are all living through, and all bear some responsibility for.

p.s. Mansfield could have gone public any time, and it would have had an enormous impact. But he never did.  His moral failure is particularly tragic, since he was so knowledgeable, and had so much power, yet ultimately he wasted both.  Mansfield's moral failure underscores my point: there was a class blindness among the political class in DC. It is very analogous to the hostility directed against Dean--even cutting across ideological differences.  

by Paul Rosenberg on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 09:22:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Conservative vs. Liberal Mindset (none / 0)

And why didn't Mansfield go public? Well, LBJ would have kneecapped him for one thing . . .

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this. I may be stuck in a "conservative mindset," as you say, but you seem to be stuck in your own mindset, in which we have to absolve LBJ of responsibility for Vietnam because we like what he did on the domestic front.

Sure social context matters, but that reasoning could conceivably absolve Nixon of responsibility for Watergate (he wasn't paranoid; they really were out to get him), or any of these Presidents of responsibility for any of the disasters that occurred on their watch. Ultimately, Johnson was responsible for his own defense policy, or else the word "responsibility" becomes devoid of content and meaning. He had alternatives. We elect Presidents to make those kinds of choices among alternatives. He made the wrong choice, for whatever reason. We are still living with the consequences.

And you still have not addressed the point about LBJ's deceitful conduct of the war . . .

by tgeraghty on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 10:07:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Very Detailed, But... (none / 0)

I would say that Watergate was worse from the standpoint of public trust
by v2aggie2 on Thu Jun 16, 2005 at 01:44:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: President rankings (none / 0)

Truman??

Personal Char should be an A... there was no more honest President-- except perhaps Carter.  And his moral force of will (quiet) were incredibly important in ending WWII.  Read the biography and get back to me.

Would you hire George W Bush to be YOUR latex salesman?
by jgkojak on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 03:18:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

length of presidency (none / 0)

It seems like shorter presidencies should be penalized, especially Ford and prob JFK.

But a two-term prez should get something for the length of service.

Rrrinnggg... Time to change the government.
by Carl Nyberg on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 03:51:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: President rankings (none / 0)

I would give Clinton an A on economic policy, a B on social policy, and a B on personal characteristics.

I think the B- on foreign folicy for Clinton is correct.

With regards to LBJ, I would give him a C for personal characteristics.

Bush I:  A C on social policy

Bush II:  In order -- D, D, F, D

by v2aggie2 on Tue Jun 14, 2005 at 01:49:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Point of Fact (none / 0)

Wal Mart is actually one of the 30 stocks that the
Dow Jones Industrial Average is calculated
from.

by turnerbroadcasting on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 01:46:59 PM EST

My rank (none / 0)

I'd sort the list as follows..

 Eisenho
 Reagan  
 FDR    
 Clinton
 Truman  
 Kennedy
 Bush I  
 Carter  
 Ford    
 LBJ    
 Nixon  
 Bush II  

I don't think much of the monica thing, Bill deserves credit for dropping the abortion
rate in our country by 40% and welfare reform.

I like IKE, Reagan was just what the doctor
ordered,  FDR was tough as nails.

Carter tended to micromanage things, but all
in all not a bad person - Nixon screwed up
when he went criminal on us.

Bush is at the last of the list until I think
of something good that he did....
.. still thinking..

by turnerbroadcasting on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 01:50:36 PM EST

Reagan Over FDR Tells Us All We Need To Know (3.00 / 1)

about you, TB, doesn't it?

Here's a little refresher on who Reagan really was, From The Corruption of Ronald Reagan by Dan Moldea:

A sweetheart relationship developed between MCA and the guild, which culminated in July 1952 during Reagan's fifth consecutive term as SAG's president.  Reagan and Laurence Beilenson, an attorney for MCA who had previously served as SAG's general counsel and had represented Reagan in his 1949 divorce from Jane Wyman, negotiated an exclusive blanket waiver with SAG that permitted MCA to engage in unlimited film production.  The agreement violated SAG's bylaws, which prohibited talent agencies from employing their own clients, and no other talent agency was granted a similar agreement at that time.  A Justice Department memorandum indicated that the waiver became "the central fact of MCA's whole rise to power."

At the end of Reagan's fifth term, he began to have serious financial problems, particularly with the IRS.  In response, MCA negotiated a deal with the Last Frontier Hotel in Las Vegas--which was then operated by Chicago mobsters--for Reagan to host a song-and-dance show for two weeks and to receive enough money to cover his back tax debt.  When Reagan returned to Hollywood, MCA, through its newly formed Revue Productions, hired him to host its flagship television program, The General Electric Theater for $125,000 a year.  He was paid additional fees when he produced episodes for the series.

Despite his status as a television producer, Reagan remained on SAG's board in another violation of the guild's bylaws, which prohibited producers from holding office in SAG.  In 1959, when Reagan ran for an unprecedented sixth term as SAG's president, his opponents raised the bylaws issue.  Publicly, Reagan denied that he had ever produced The General Electric Theater--a flat-out lie....

In 1962, the Justice Department filed a federal antitrust suit against MCA on the basis that it was both a talent agency and a production company; SAG was charged as a coconspirator.

Reagan was the subject of criminal and civil investigations by both the FBI and a federal grand jury in Los Angeles.  A Justice Department memorandum quoted a Hollywood source as saying, "Ronald Reagan is a complete slave of MCA who would do their bidding on anything."

Reagan was subpoenaed before the grand jury, but he appeared to experience amnesia during his testimony on February 5, 1962, and failed to recall the major decisions that had been made when SAG had granted MCA the exclusive blanket waiver in 1952.  Federal prosecutors were so convinced that Reagan had perjured himself repeatedly during his testimony that they subpoenaed his and his wife's income tax returns for the years 1952 to 1955.  Nancy Reagan had been a member of SAG's board of directors since 1951.

The entire transcript of this testimony is contained in my 1986 book, Dark Victory: Ronald Reagan, MCA, and the Mob (Viking Press, pp. 167-201), which is now out of print....

However, in July 1962--in the wake of MCA's purchase of Decca Records, the parent company of Universal Pictures--MCA agreed to abolish its talent agency.  As a result, all charges against and investigations of the company and its alleged coconspirators were dropped and the record of the case was sealed.

Deeply affected by the breakup of MCA, Reagan, a lifelong Democrat, became an anti-big government Republican....

As President, Reagan watched as his Justice Department quashed major federal investigations of the Mafia's penetration of both MCA and the entire motion picture industry, which were being conducted by the Los Angeles office of the U.S. Strike Force Against Organized Crime.  Two highly respected Strike Force prosecutors, Marvin Rudnick and Richard Stavin, lost their jobs because of their refusal to succumb to pressure from the Reagan Administration.

As for being "just what the doctor ordered," well, the SPIN doctor, that is.  

The "intelligence" that the Soviets were engaged in a massive buildup, which helped to fuel the hysteria on which Reagan ran and won--it was pure spin, produced by an earlier generation of neo-cons. The Soviets were actually already in decline, and the Cold War would have probably ended earlier if Reagan had not wasted over $1 trillion in a military buildup that substantially strengthened the hand of Soviet military hardliners.

See Team B: The trillion-dollar experiment.

by Paul Rosenberg on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 02:40:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

My rankings (none / 0)

For what it's worth:

1) FDR.  
The right has been trying to minimalize his accomplishments for 75 years.  No one could have presided over WWII and mobilized the nation as he did- because he had gained the trust of the American people through his actions during the depression.  Oh, and: Social Security, etc.

2) Truman.
If there was ever a right man for the right time it was Truman.  He was almost the anti-Roosevelt(FDR liked to play mind games, was indecisive, short tempered at times)- Truman made tough decisions, stuck by them.  He is the last Dem President to get elected because of his popularity in rural America.  We should look into this, methinks.

3) JFK.
He inspired.  His legacy is responsible for the Civil Rights Act/Voting Rights.  Had he lived, we probably would not have gotten into Vietnam (and isn't it a shame that he didn't and we had to spend all that money and pay all those defense contractors to wratchet up the cold war... oops! I'll drop the conspiracy stuff for now...)

4) Ike.
Like Truman, probably the only one who could have led America through rock 'n roll and the awakening civil rights movement (a Dem, sympathetic to the cause, would have been persecuted - by his own party in part, any other Republican would have played to the fear - as Veep Nixon did - he loses points, by the way, for choosing Nixon).

5) Clinton
Would have been #4 if not for you know what.  What can I say? It was stupid of him.  I blame his dick for W getting elected.  He did preside over the largest era of economic expansion and provided a road-map for Dems to win the White House. He also lost the House and Senate for at least half a generation.  Oh the contradictions!

6)  Johnson.
This one is tough- just like Clinton.  We just can't ignore Civil Rights.  Yes, Kennedy started them, but no one, and I mean, NO ONE, but Souther Leader Johnson could have pushed this through.  And that trumps Vietnam.  Note had Nixon or even Rockefeller (we won't even mention Goldwater) been President we would have had VietNam without Civil Rights.

7) Reagan.
Ouch! That hurts.  He birthed the neo-con movement and began the destruction of the new deal.  But... he probably did hasten the defeat of the Soviets by calling their bluff.  At this point (#7 onward) its probably best for our country if they had lost).

NOTE- I AM VERY CONFLICTED ON #7 and #8.

8) Carter.
As much as I'd like him #6, and think his foreign policy was brilliant, he didn't know how to work with an all-dem Congress or handle the economy in an effective way.  And his response to the hostage-taking was inadequate- no one would have blamed him (had Ford or Reagan been President the Shah would have been admitted to the US for medical treatment and the same thing would have happened) if he had sent in the cavalry.  

9)Ford.  
Not much to say here.  We're lucky Nixon's Veep (and it was no accident) was a genuinely good man.  

  1.  GHWBush.  His sperm created the worst - president - ever (see #12).  And he destroyed the economy.  And he mangled the end of the gulf war, leaving us issues to deal with (see Woodrow Wilson).

  2.  Nixon.  What if his party had controlled both houses of Congress?  Think about it.

  3.  George W Bush.
Worst - President - Ever.

Would you hire George W Bush to be YOUR latex salesman?
by jgkojak on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 02:07:49 PM EST

Reagan Didn't End Cold War (none / 0)

Check out my link, Team B: The trillion-dollar experiment. The "bluff" came from the neocons politicizing the intelligence.

The person who actually ended the Cold War was Nixon. By going to China, he redefined the Cold War as what it actually always had been: a geopolitical great power conflict. He de-ideologized it. No one else could have done it, because Nixon personally would have demonized anyone else who would have tried.

But, before you start feeling all warm and cudlly toward Nixon, consider why and how he ended the Cold War: to undermine anti-colonial wars of liberation, such as Vietnam. To isolate emerging Third World nations, and eliminate their ability to create space for themselves by playing off the superpowers against one another.  

Bad as the Cold War was, it provided political space for the development of a powerful non-aligned movement, which was lead by India and Indonesia. This is why the US formed an enduring alliance with Pakistan, and overthrew Sukarno in one of the greatest bloodbaths Asia had ever seen.  Likewise, Eisenhower's decision to use the CIA to overthrow foreign governments was initially--and most consistently--targetted against non-aligned or potentially non-aligned countries, not against Communist ones. (It began with Iran and Guatemala and went on from there.)

It was standard US policy that those not with us were against us, so we didn't distinguish between the two.  Kennedy, however, broke with this view somewhat--most notably with Laos, where he realized that a nuetral country that close to Communist China was actually a strategic plus.  But this was the exception that proves the rule

Reagan revived this policy with a vengeance, while it had declined significantly--though certainly not disappeared--under Carter.  The continued crushing of independent third world nationalism is one of the rationales--heaviy promoted under Reagan--contributing to our support for Islamic terrorism. The Jihadists grew powerful at the expense of secular Arab nationalists.

Hence, Reagan actually prolonged the Cold War, and he helped plant the seeds for the ongoing Jihad we now face.

by Paul Rosenberg on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 03:03:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The Daily Breeze, Our Sworn Enemy! (none / 0)

The paper I work for, Random Lengths News is sworn enemies with the Daily Breeze.  Actually, I have nothing against the local reporters who cover San Pedro and Port of LA affairs. They've done some very good reporting.  But the paper as an insitution is a longstanding rightwing GOP tool. The Copely chain, of which it is the flagship, used to have a paper in San Pedro, the News Pilot.  For about two decades they were Random Lengths' primary foes. Shortly before I joined the paper, the News Pilot folded, and left San Pedro with just one local paper. That was us.  

Since then, the Breeze and the rightwing Long Beach paper, the Press-Telegram have both launched faux-alternative papers in San Pedro to compete with us.  2004 was a year devoted largely to waging a sustained counter-attack. They tried to lead with feel-good "community" coverage, putting well-known people on the cover, promoting local (school) sports, that sort of thing.  We fired back with a front-page series of local heroes who had played significant roles in making San Pedro a more progressive community.

All this is to say that this piece from the Daily Breeze is utterly typical of where they are coming from. It's like an x-ray of their soul.

by Paul Rosenberg on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 02:27:27 PM EST

Re: The Daily Breeze, Our Sworn Enemy! (none / 0)

Very cool inside scoop.  Thanks.
by dhonig on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 02:32:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

who were the good ones? (none / 0)

FDR, LBJ. Those are the two preisdents of any real substance in the past 70 years.

Forget the rest

by janfrel on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 03:16:06 PM EST

Re: who were the good ones? (none / 0)

Truman accomplished nothing?  I'd Think that the integration of the military (which in the 40s is a much bolder move than the 1965 civil rights act was for LBJ), the marshall plan, the widening of the housing authority, and the many other things that he accomplished would at least give him some consideration.  The bombing of Nagasaki would be his major foreign policy mistake, but I can't see it as being any smaller than Johnson's role in Vietnam (since it was debateable how well FDR kept Truman briefed, AND all the Manhattan scientists--except Teller--expected a far weaker bomb than what they got;  and this isn't to say that Nagasaki wasn't inconscionable, which it was).  

And yes, Douglas MacArthur was completely insane.  He should have been fired.

"You say the world has lost it's love I say embrace what it's made of" -Dar Williams
by Valatan on Tue Jun 14, 2005 at 12:27:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

my rankings (none / 0)

My rankings of the post WWII Presidents:

12.G.W. Bush: No real explanation needed
11.Ronald Reagan: To quote Gore Vidal, "None of his domestic or foreign policies made any sense to anyone who knew anything about them". He also started the modern religious conservative movement, as it relates to national politics.
10.Harry Truman: Okay, I know I'm gonna get some flack for this one. I believe (and am not alone among historians) he didn't have to drop the bomb on Japan, but did so to scare Stalin. He also created the National Security State in 1947, and by association was a major architect of the Cold War. Props for integrating the arms forces though.
9.G.H.W. Bush: Actually a Republican who was not ideological but a pragmatist. But as a whole his Presidency was weak and wrong.
8.Gerald Ford: It's hard to rate him to be honest. Props for handling Watergate well.
7.Lyndon Johnson: Great Society lifts his Presidency up from the ashes of Vietnam, which he escalated beyond belief. Oh and he did the right thing by quitting in 1968, he would have been beat I think, plus at the time it was thought that Kennedy or McCarthy not Humphrey would have been the nominee.
6.Jimmy Carter: I really like him and it pains me to put him so low. Despite his good intentions, his Presidency was mediocre. Was perhaps ahead of his time.
5.Dwight Eisenhower: The normalcy president. Props for farewell speech.
4.Bill Clinton: Very much like Nixon in the way I think of him. Hard to forgive for Monica, NAFTA, DOMA,etc. But was a master at economic policy.
3.Richard Nixon: Okay don't kill me for this. Outside of the rough edges, this man was a visionary. He got SALT I through, AMAZING skills with triangulating with Russia and China. Opening China. OSHA, EPA, Earth Day,etc. Prolonged Vietnam though and was a criminal. But overall the most underrated and perhaps influential President of modern times. It's very hard to make a concrete view of his Presidency though, like Clinton.
2.F.D. Roosevelt: Great handling of Depression and WWII. Court Stacking thing brings
 him down and Japanese Internment Camps are beyond indefensible.
1.John F. Kennedy: Not so much for what he did but for what he didn't do. He didn't
 have a major fuck-up. Any other President in office in '62, we might not be here right
 now. Implemented great programs like Peace Corps. Would of made vaster changes in
 64-68 that this nation had seen in a LONG time. Tried to get us out of Vietnam. Began
what Johnson finished with the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

Tennesseans for Feingold
by ben114 on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 03:24:21 PM EST

JFK: Bay of Pigs (none / 0)


"You say the world has lost it's love I say embrace what it's made of" -Dar Williams
by Valatan on Tue Jun 14, 2005 at 12:28:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Join the revolution for progressive legislation. (none / 0)

 
To punish the Republicans for stealing the 2000 and 2004 elections Call and email Wendy's and Outback Steakhouses, 2 big Republican Party contributors, BOYCOTT Wendy's (of Ohio) restaurant chain and Outback Steakhouse (Florida) chain until the following four situations occur:

The people elect Democrats as governor and secretary of State of Ohio and Florida and in the majority in the legislatures.

 We implement vote by mail throughout the United States of America. This will prevent Republicans from vote suppression by skin color which happened electronicly and in person in the 2000 and 2004 elections. Demand that your state implement vote by mail with ballots easy to fill out and difficult to change or invalidate by Republican Party officials.

Civil servants on the state payroll should keep track of voter registrations and vote counting of mail in votes in each precinct and not companies such as Choicepoint. We need to take the Republican Party out of the business of keeping track of voter registration and counting votes.

States ban the secretary of sate from engaging in politics especially acting as a campaign official for a presidential campaign.

 We the undersigned demand that the Congress of the United states and the president of the United States enact a law to increase the minimum wage to TEN dollars an hour and also to extend unemployment benefits for all people whose unemployment benefits expired after 6 months even though they still seek work.

We also demand that the Congress of the United States to not privatize social security benefits in any form including taking a percentage of the social security tax and placing it in private accounts. People can already create their own pensions with money after taxes in the private sector.

We also demand that the congress make all of a person's earned income taxable for social security FICA tax purposes and remove the 88,000 dollar salary cap. This will make social security solvent for many years to come.

We pledge to boycott Walmart and call them at 800-966-6546 and demand they help in getting the above legislation enacted or we will never buy from Walmart again.

We make no statement of quality of Walmart products but we maintain the right of free speech and association and of boycotting for the purpose of persuading congress to enact this part of a progressive agenda. After all the money belongs to us and we can legally set conditions for our purchases of products and doing business with any company in the United States.

We the undersigned also demand congress and the president enact a prescription drug benefit under Medicare Part B which covers 80 percent of medication cost, with no extra premium, no extra deductibles, no means test and no coverage gaps or else we will not purchase products from the CVS, Eckerd, and Walgreens pharmacy chains. We make no statement of the quality of products sold by these pharmacy chains.

We pledge to Call Eckerd Pharmacy Corporate Headquarters at 800 325 3737, Call CVS Pharmacy Corporate headquarters at 888 607 4287 and Call Walgreens Pharmacy Corporate headquarters at 800 289 2273 and tell them we will not purchase any products from their drug stores but will patronize them in the future if they can get the congress to pass a prescription drug benefit as described above. If a person cannot stop buying medications from the three drug store chains, I consider it acceptible to buy your medication from one of the chains but still refrain from buying other products from their drug stores.

We also call for the complete repeal of the faulty Medicare law HR 1 / S 1 passed by congress in Nov 2003.

Please tell your friends, family and coworkers to sign this petition.

We do this in the spirit of peaceful resistance to a congress that refuses to enact this legislation

If you don't support what the Republicans did since they took over the House of Representatives in 1995 and don't support the Republican party's plans for this year then Join the revolution for progressive legislation and sign the petition at
http://www.boycott-republicans.com

Write this url on your one, five and ten dollar bills in the white areas in Pencil.

Tennessee residents please make an effort to boycott the following companies I list in my boycott petition: Walmart and Eckerd,CVS, and Walgreens in your state and call Senator Frist and tell him unless he gets our agenda passed those Tennessee outlets of these chains will not get your business. You live at one of the biggest seats of power in the United States. Organize and use your purchasing power to leverage it into passing progressive legislation.

Also join my activist group

 http://groups.myspace.com/revolutionforprogressivelegislation  

Sign the petition to end the war in Iraq.

http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/stopthewar

To punish the Republicans for stealing the 2000 and 2004 elections Call and email Wendy's and Outback Steakhouses, 2 big Republican Party contributors, BOYCOTT Wendy's (of Ohio) restaurant chain and Outback Steakhouse (Florida) chain until the following four situations occur:

The people elect Democrats as governor and secretary of State of Ohio and Florida and in the majority in the legislatures.

 We implement vote by mail throughout the United States of America. This will prevent Republicans from vote suppression by skin color which happened electronicly and in person in the 2000 and 2004 elections. Demand that your state implement vote by mail with ballots easy to fill out and difficult to change or invalidate by Republican Party officials.

Civil servants on the state payroll should keep track of voter registrations and vote counting of mail in votes in each precinct and not companies such as Choicepoint. We need to take the Republican Party out of the business of keeping track of voter registration and counting votes.

States ban the secretary of sate from engaging in politics especially acting as a campaign official for a presidential campaign.

Spread the messages at your grocery store too by printing out the graphics and leave it in your shopping cart when you finish.

Look at this web page for other efforts.

 http://www.justicefornone.com/handbills/index.htm

Thank you.

How to destroy the agenda of Arnold Schwarzenegger

and advance a progessive agenda in California.

http://www.boycott-republicans.com

The following people and companies gave at least 21,000 dollars to Arnold's
campaign and recall effort in 2003. I have named some of the more consumer oriented companies meaning they sell a product to the public that people can easily boycott and buy elsewhere. I suggest people begin by gathering your legislative goals and call these companies and tell them that they helped Arnold steal the California governorship so unless they get Arnold and the legislature to pass your desired legislation you and other people will call them and tell them you will boycott them.

and now the companies that helped install Arnold.

THE GAP clothing stores
TOYOTA TEMUCULA VALLEY
LANCASTER, SIERRA TOYOTA
JORDAN VINEYARD & WINERY
VICTORY DEALERSHIP GROUP auto dealers
WEIDER HEALTH & FITNESS
Dean Spanos SAN DIEGO CHARGERS ceo
CONANT AUTOMOTIVE RESOURCES
AMERICAN STERLING CORP commercial bank
FLETCHER JONES MANAGEMENT auto dealer
PACIFIC WEST PHARMACY
ARTISOFT, INC.
HANSEN INFORMATION TECHNOLOGIES
CONEXANT SYSTEMS
SCHEID VINYARDS, INC
TUTTLE-CLICK AUTOMOTIVE GROUP
FOOD 4 LESS
MERUELO ENTERPRISES
Emulex corporation
HILMAR CHEESE COMPANY INC
HANFORD HOTELS
HITCHCOCK AUTOMOTIVE RESOURCES
KEYES MOTORS
HANSEN TECHNOLOGIES

 

by maximus7 on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 05:41:02 PM EST

The Ranking of the President. (none / 0)

I rank Presidents I have studied and seen on tv and radio thusly.

1. Franklin Delano Roosevelt.

Probably, without Roosevelt we would now live in a cheap labor Republican conservative utopia military state installed as a puppet of the German Adolf Hitler. Oh wait, we have Bush in office who stole 2 elections. Same crap different assh*le.

2. George Washington.

The father of our country but not the first president of our land. We had a president under the articles of confederation before the constitution got ratified. In any case George Washington led what we know as the United States of America for 2 terms and set a precedent.

3. Abraham Lincoln

The first moderate to liberal Republican. Basicly the only good Republican aside fro mTeddy Roosevelt. He saved our union after the conservatives in the 19th century Democratic party in the south stubbornly fought to keep cheap labor conservative policies of slavery. The conservatives lost their slaves but kept harrassing and killing the African American until 1960 when segregation ended officially. Now thew conservatives basicly moved to the Republican Party for the most part and we now have high tech lynching of African American voters and we still have segregation to a degree and conservatives fuming at African Americans such that usually the African Americans that vote for the conservative Republicans can fit in a phone booth. 10 percent of the population.

4. Lyndon Johnson.

While Lyndon Johnson escalated a war in Viet Nam, he did sign the civil rights act of 1964, engage in an effort to reduce poverty in America and his power as a Senate leader gave him the preparation he needed to win the presidency. He will get judged better as years go by and he will still get criticized for Viet Nam.

5. Harry S Truman

He carried on the work of the US after the death of Franklin Delano Roosevelt. He proposed a system of National Health care. The conservatives have thwarted this for decades. Some day we will thrown cheap labor Republican conservatism on the same ash heap of history in which we threw communism on. Harry Truman began the effort to stop communism expansion.

and Now for the worst president ever. I had not ever considered anyone could do worse as president than Herbert Hoover an Richard Nixon but George W Bush appears worse of every president of the US.

Under Bush's provocation of the Taliban the 9-11 attacks occurred and despite Republican propaganda George W Bush and the Republican party appear WEAK on national defense. George W Bush and his stealing of 2 elections by high tech lynching of registrations of African American voters in 2000 and in 2004 with the deprivation of voting machines in 2004 haddone what Richard Nixon could not do with his breaking into the Watergate for information on which to defeat the Democrats in 1972.

The economic policies of George W Bush despite the history of the Republican party's responsibility for the crash of 1929 and the resulting depression appears reprehensible. The Republican Party should know better and they will find themselves out of power for another 40 years because of the above and for Enron and the California power scams and the stealing of the California governorship.

George W Bush appears the worst.

Join the revolution for progressive legislation.

http://www.boycott-republicans.com

by maximus7 on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 06:07:31 PM EST

Re: The Ranking of the President. (none / 0)

Warren Harding and Ulysses S. Grant were pretty piss poor presidents.  I'd have to give the worst ever to the latter, as he fucked up reconstruction in such a way that has created the current culture divide that we have today.  Maybe in 20 or 30 years I'll come around to Bush being worse, but god, Grant was just so bad...
"You say the world has lost it's love I say embrace what it's made of" -Dar Williams
by Valatan on Tue Jun 14, 2005 at 12:31:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

i want link you (none / 0)

Shanghai Lily Bearing Manufacturing Co.,Ltd Lily bearings, inc.
We are a professional manufacturer and trader of bearings and other industrial products which is making all kinds of bearings such as flange ball bearings , thrust ball bearings ,ceramic ball bearings , stainless steel bearings , special bearings , Miniature Ball Bearing ,Angular Contact Ball Bearings ,Tapered Roller Bearing ,Needle Roller Bearings , Self-Aligning Ball Bearing , Spherical Plain Radial bearings and Rod Ends , Thrust Self-Aligning Roller Bearing , Pressed Economic Bearings , Insert Ball Bearing Units , Automotive Bearings , Double Row Deep Groove Ball Bearing , Water Pump Bearings , Insert Ball Bearings , Cylindrical Roller Bearings , etc.

Ningbo xinxing Pneumatic Goods Co., Ltd. xinxing ail tools, inc.
Ningbo xinxing Pneumatic Goods Co., Ltd.is Join venture which is speciallzing in producing of all kind of Pneumatic tools such as air tools, Air angle grinder , Air impact wrench, High speed air drill , In-Line air drill , Revrsible Air Drill ,KEYLESS AIR DRILL , DRIVE AIR RATCHET WRENCH , AIR D . A .SANDER , AIR ANGLE SANDER , PROFESSIONAL SANDER , AIR BODY SAW , AIR IMPACT SCREW DRIVER , JITTERBUG SANDER , AIR MULETIPLE NEEDLE SCALER ,AIR HAMMER , AIR DIE GRINDER KIT , AIR CUTTER-GRINDER KIT , AIR TOOL KIT , AIR IMPACT WRENCH KIT , AIR HAMMER KIT , AIR DRILL KIT , SHANK CHISELS , AIR MICRO DIE GRINDER KIT ,AIR ACCESSORY KIT , AIR LINE OILER ,AIR BLOW GUN ,MONTED STONE , QUICK COUPLER BRASS SET , AIR REGULATOR , GRINDING STONE , MINI REGULAOR , SWIVEL CONNECTOR , PAD OF6”SANDER , NPT(M) Q.C.PLUG , NPT (F)QUICK COUPLIER ,NPT M&F THREADS etc.

Well Way Electrical Co, Ltd. Well Way weatherproof fluorescent fixture, inc.
Well Way Electrical Co, Ltd. is speciallzing in producing of all kind of outdoor fluorescent fixture , waterproof fixture fluorescent , weatherproof fluorescent fixture , ip65 fluorescent fixture etc

China Ningbo Redfir Hi-Tech Board Industry Co., Ltd hongshan aluminum aluminium composite panel, inc.
China Ningbo Redfir Hi-Tech Board Industry Co., Ltd is speciallzing in producing of all kind of aluminum composite panel, aluminium composite panel, aluminum plastic composite panel,aluminium plastic composite panel etc China Saivs Casting CO.,LTD. is one of specialized manufacturer and exporter of various casting including Lost wax casting ,Investment casting,Pressure die casting ,Stainless Steel Casting , Steel Casting,quick coupling,aluminium casting,Die casting,aluminum casting,sand casting in China.Manufacturer of China.Product of China.Supplier of China.Factory of China.Exporter of China.Kaiyuan Pneumatic Engineering Co.,Ltd.main products are air source treat-ment element, solenoid valve,penumatic fitting,pneumatic components,pneumatic cylinder etc.NingBo Grand Fiberglass CO.,LTD. main products are fiberglass,fiberglass mesh ,fiberglass tape ,drywall joint tape,self adhesive fiberglass tape,FRP grating,FRP profile etc.

by maowenjie523 on Thu Aug 18, 2005 at 10:35:23 PM EST


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