Democratic Myths

Ruy Teixeira surveys some of the popular ideas about how Democrats can improve their chances, and then he throws down the gauntlet:
The Framing Myth. Associated with Berkeley linguistics professor George Lakoff, the framing approach assures Democrats they need not change what they say, but how they say it--how they "frame" their message. As Josh Green pointed out in his devastating Atlantic piece on Lakoff, this framing is typically a reshuffling of tired old rhetorical cliches and shows no signs of being any more politically effective than the Democrats' previous unframed appeals.

The Inoculation Myth. One reason John Kerry got the Democratic nomination was that many Democrats thought his Vietnam service would inoculate him against the charge that Democrats were not sufficiently tough to conduct the war on terror. It didn't work. But many Democrats appear to have concluded in the aftermath of the 2004 election that the solution to the party's problems is to have more and better inoculation. Let's act even tougher on national security! And let's inoculate ourselves on values! And on religion! And on culture!

This seems no more likely to work in 2005 and beyond than it did in 2004. Voters still want to know what Democrats stand for and inoculation, pretty much by definition, cannot provide that.

The Unity Myth. Another approach among Democrats is to insist that little needs to be re-thought--the key is for Democrats to unite around what they already believe. As Mark Schmitt pointed out recently, this approach confuses a desirable kind of unity (partisan unity in action) with an undesirable kind of unity (agreement on program and ideas without vigorous debate and discussion). Democrats need far more debate and discussion about ideas, not far less.

The Mobilization Myth. A hardy perennial in Democratic circles, the mobilization approach insists that Democrats' problems can be overcome by a sufficiently high level of mobilization among Democrats and Democratic-leaning groups. The fact of the matter is, however, that the Democratic coalition was pretty highly-mobilized in the 2004 election, especially in the battleground states. The fatal problem was that they couldn't convert the considerable dissatisfaction with Bush among independents and moderates into large enough margins among these groups to win the election. That's basically the same problem facing Democrats today: how to turn the "Revolt of the Middle" into solid support in the center of the electorate. Mobilization, by definition, can't solve this problem.

Sorry, Democrats, there's just no substitute for good ideas and fresh approaches. It's time to jettison these myths and buckle down to the real work of change--serious change--in what Democrats say to voters.

First, I'd like to say that I'm a little surprised Ruy would post something like this after turning off comments on his blog. I mean, this is the sort of post that begs for a huge comment thread. Secondly, I'd like to agree with one of his main conclusions, that we must present a real agenda of reform to the public in order to improve.

Third, I'd like to strongly agree with the inoculation myth. The notion that someone's title and personal history can compensate for broader image problems facing the party has always struck me as hopelessly gimmicky and ineffective. It also seems to assume that the Republican Noise Machine won't go to great lengths to distort the personal history of any major Democrat.

Fourth, sure framing and mobilization will not achieve all of our goals, but surely better framing and better mobilization will help, won't they? I think it is fairly obvious that these are always things we need to try to do better, even if we also need to realize that they are not cure-alls.

Overall, however, I actually do not believe that Ruy's solution, changing what we tell voters, is enough. I believe that our problems are even more fundamental than our message, and in a post-national consensus era are directly tied to the ideological gap between conservatism and liberalism. We can talk about message and framing and mobilization and unity and reform and electability until the cows come home, but quite frankly I believe that Democrats are losing elections before they begin because of the general ideological composition of the electorate and of the nation.

As far as I can tell, the main problem facing Democrats is that conservatives, when compared to liberals, have superior organizational control and power over what Louis Althusser famously called Ideological State Apparatuses and what on this blog I have taken to calling ideological conversion machines. To put this another way, I believe that conservatives are largely in control of those mechanisms that determine an individual's ideological outlook, which these days is largely determinative of how an individual ends up voting. I believe that our problems are growing particuarly severe when it comes to four specific ideological machines:

  • Education While education is the most unionized profession / industry in the country, and while voters with a post-graduate degree favor Democrats, outside of actual educators liberals are getting crushed by conservative organizing within the field of education. This is particularly true when it comes to on-campus student organizing in colleges and universities, where conservative student organizing is exponentially more advanced than liberal student organizing. This is also the case among school board seats that largely determine the curriculum of primary and secondary schools. It has been a decades-long priority among the Christian right to capture and dominate school boards, again with little organized liberal opposition outside of teacher unions. Of course, this hasn't stopped some factions of the Democratic party from assisting in the demonizing of teacher's unions which remain pretty much our only bulwark against total conservative domination of the American educational system.

  • Labor Speaking of unions, we must increase union density, or we will continue to lose ground in another major area of ideological influence: the workplace. While union members tend to have a pro-Democratic partisan index of over twenty points, union density in the American workplace has steadily declined for the past forty years. If this situation is not reversed, liberalism will be facing a near-total collapse of influence over one of the nation's most powerful ideological conversion machines.

  • Media. I expect all of us here know about The Republican Noise Machine by now, so there is no need to explain it in detail. It simply goes without saying that we must match or surpass the Republican Noise Machine or else conservatism will continue to dominate the nation's political discourse, which is an undeniably important ideological conversion machine.

  • Religion While I have written in the past that long-term religious demographics clearly favor liberalism, .the fact remains that over the past three decades right-wing religious organizing has far surpassed that seen on left. During that time period, white Christians have become significantly more conservative, and considering the current imbalance of organizing within religious circles that trend will almost certainly continue. If this does happen, any gain Democrats make in this area from demographic trends will be significantly muted, if not entirely wiped out. The religious left absolutely must begin to organize voters of faith on an equal level to conservative efforts or else Democrats will continue to surrender yet another important ideological conservation machine.
Even beyond direct election organizing, which is undeniably important, I believe that these are the four main tasks facing contemporary liberalism. If we do not succeed in all four areas, we will not be able to close the ideological self-identification gap with conservatism. If we do not close that gap, we are in deep shit at the ballot box for some time to come. We have to take back control the ideological conversion machines if we are ever to become the natural governing party in this country again.

Anyway, those are my thoughts on what Ruy wrote. I'm sure you all have some too.



Display:


Comments (none / 0)

First, I really don't think we can match the Republican Noise Machine.  I mean, consider just consider one thing: Fox News.  Is there anyone here who doesn't beleive that Fox News isn't effectively the propoganda arm of the Republican party?  So- what are the odds that we liberals will be able to launch our own, nation-wide, 24-hour, multi-billion-dollar news channel to compete against Fox?

The other comment is that we're not going to get a new message with our old spokespeople.  Before we can change our message, we need to change our messengers.  We can no longer afford DINOs- elected officials who profess to be Democrats, and yet subvert party unity- this means the Blue Dog Democrats and the more conservative wing of the DLC needs to get taken out in primary challenges.  Yes, this means we'll lose some more seats.  But we aren't able to bring any new ideas (or even any old ideas, like single payer health care) to the table if we keep getting kneecapped by so-called "Democrats".

by bhurtaw on Wed May 04, 2005 at 05:22:12 PM EST

Re: Comments (none / 0)

I'm afraid that in some parts of the country (Utah, the South) the best we'll get are DINOS. But so long as that wins us control of the Senate or House ...?
by quoi on Wed May 04, 2005 at 10:20:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Myth: Ignore the messenger (1.00 / 2)

We are , as a country, fighting a war.
Whomever has the bully pulpit had better
be a fighting liberal, or you might
as well just treat him like the GOP treats
their own: harshly.

In the case of Chris here, its amazing
that he thinks he can just keep repeating
himself and ram his point home.

"Christians are going to the GOP. Lets not
try to bring them here. We won't succeed"

Translated:

"I don't want to play with the christian grassroots, the second largest network
in the united states."

by turnerbroadcasting on Wed May 04, 2005 at 05:42:01 PM EST

Learn To Read You Friggin Douchebag! (2.28 / 7)

Here is what Chris actually said:
* The religious left absolutely must begin to organize voters of faith on an equal level to conservative efforts or else Democrats will continue to surrender yet another important ideological conservation machine.

Translation:

* The religious left absolutely must begin to organize voters of faith on an equal level to conservative efforts or else Democrats will continue to surrender yet another important ideological conservation machine.

by Paul Rosenberg on Wed May 04, 2005 at 05:55:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learn To Read You Friggin Douchebag! (1.66 / 3)

You forgot something here..

"over the past three decades right-wing religious organizing has far surpassed that seen on left. During that time period, white Christians have become significantly more conservative, and considering the current imbalance of organizing within religious circles that trend will almost certainly continue. If this does happen, any gain Democrats make in this area from demographic trends will be significantly muted, if not entirely wiped out."

Conjunction junction, whats your function?

Chris backs up his statement with his standard disclaimer.  Which you quoted nicely in a
cute gray box, repeating yourself to
make your point. This is statistically
what rude people tend to do, because
they can't normally defend their position with
intellectual arguments.

Hey, by the way - how's that exponential growth
in the democratic economy coming along for you?

by turnerbroadcasting on Wed May 04, 2005 at 08:11:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learn To Read You Friggin Douchebag! (none / 0)

Nah. He/she/it just needs to learn that there is no need to put a carriage return at the end of every 45 characters. It's difficult to read.
by quoi on Wed May 04, 2005 at 10:16:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What Rubbish From Teixeira! (3.00 / 2)

Ruy Teixeira has an excellent eye for catching things that the CW analysts consistently miss. But then he goes and writes rubbish like this. Nowhere does George Lakoff argue that framing is the solution, or a substitute for other important elements of political organizing. In fact, Don't Think of an Elephant argues specifically for "good ideas and fresh approaches" in the form of strategic initiatives, just like the Republicans use--and he offers the Apollo Initiative as an example:

Unlike the right, the left does not think strategically. We think issue by issue. We generally do not try to figure out what minimal change we can enact that will have effects across many issues.

There are a very few exceptions. For example, at the present moment there is a strategic proposal called the New Apollo Initiative. Simply put, the idea is to put thirty billion dollars a year?which is the amount that now goes in subsidies to support the coal and gas industries?into alternative energy. What makes this strategic? It is strategic because it is not just an energy issue or a sustainability issue. It is also:

  • A jobs issue: It would create two to four million jobs.
  • A health issue: Less air pollution means less childhood asthma.
  • A clean water, clean air issue.
  • A species issue: It would clean up environments and habitats.
  • A global warming issue: We would be making a contribution to lowering greenhouse gases without a program specifically for global warming.
  • A foreign policy issue: We would no longer be dependent on Middle Eastern oil.
  • A Third World development issue: Every country, no matter how "underdeveloped," can make its own energy if it has the appropriate alternative technologies. Such countries would not have to borrow money to buy oil and pollute their environments. And they would not have to pay interest on the money borrowed.

Furthermore, every dollar invested in energy in the third world has a multiplier effect of six.

In short, a massive investment in alternative energy has an enormous yield over many issue areas. This is not just about energy; it is about jobs, health, clean air and water, habitat, global warming, foreign policy, and third world development. It is also about putting together new coalitions and organizing new institutions and new constituencies.

And, of course, Lakoff also talks about the need to reorganize how the left funds organizing, putting money into long-term infrastructure development, which is one piece of the puzzle in addressing ideological conversion.

The bottom line of all this is surprisingly simple: there is no magic bullet. We have to do a wide range of things in order to win.  

All those thinkers who realize this, who walk around talking both/and all the time are part of the solution. We may disagree about priorities, strategies and tactics, but have a common framework of multiple causality and respect for diverse contributions in common, which is a solid foundation for building stronger and stronger cooperation over time.

OTOH, all those who don't realize this, who walk around talking either/or and tearing down one person to build themselves up are part of the problem--no matter how brilliant they may be in their particular niche.  And make no mistake, Teixeira is pretty fucking brilliant as an a polling analyst.  But if he casts his lot in with the either/or crowd, then he is part of the problem. Period. End of conversation. Next item of business.

Oh and BTW, this is not just a defense of Lakoff rant. If it was, there would be a few more items I could and would throw in here.

Instead, let me defend something I ordinarily would not: innoculation.  Generally, I think innoculation is just a way of saying, "let's run a Republican light."  But it doesn't have to be.  The John Kerry who investigated Iran-Contra was not Republican light.  

The problem with innoculation is not that it's wrong, but that it's not a silver bullet (starting to see a pattern here?). In other words, innoculation is a good thing, but innoculation by itself is virtually useless.  In fact, innoculation really only makes sense if you're going to go beyond innoculation (a defensive strategy) counter-infection (an offensive strategy that attacks Republicans for the enormous gap between their image and the pitiful reality behind it).  This is what Kerry totally failed to do.

Actually, I think Democrats could win back the House in 2006 with a national counter-infection stategy: run a whole shit-load of Iraq War veterans against GOP chickenhawks.  And run them on all the things that the GOP has neglected hiding behind their hypocritical yellow ribbons, all the things that Iraq War veterans and their families (not to mention those who didn't make it back) really need--health care for all, real opportunity, real investment in communities, in energy security (the Apollo Initiative again), a real multi-lateral strategy for eliminating terrorism, etc., etc., etc/

The point is, this is a both/and innoculation strategy. And that makes it much more similar to other both/and strategies than it is to any sort of silver bullet innoculation strategy.

by Paul Rosenberg on Wed May 04, 2005 at 05:51:11 PM EST

Re: What Rubbish From Teixeira! (3.00 / 3)

I would think it's obvious to anyone--- the importance of framing (and how trivial that framing can be). These guys are not the first to come out with such criticism, maybe their misunderstanding of the framing issues is that they don't want to admit that our political discourse is so lame, that profound issues such as social security and the filibuster are literally decided over which terms the media uses to describe it to the people, how they then respond to the polls, and then how the politicians react.  But that's the hard cold reality.
by Jerome Armstrong on Wed May 04, 2005 at 07:45:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Rubbish From Teixeira! (none / 0)

Would you describe the Democrats' strategy, or non-strategy, on Social Security as an innoculation strategy?
by Gary Boatwright on Wed May 04, 2005 at 09:15:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Rubbish From Teixeira! (none / 0)

I think there are some points to made in the argument that Democrats are not offering a new, bold vision simply because they arent.

Yes- framing is important.  Yes - the left equivalent of the Republican Noise Machine is important.

Yes - we need to run progressives for the "nuts and bolts" political stuff like community boards, school boards and town dog catcher (just like what the Religious Radicals have done).

However - lately the Democrats have come off as a party of the past.  It really is almost like tax and spend.  

Why not bold, risky initiatives like national non-partisan redistricting, nationwide standardized voting, eliminating income tax for people who make $50k and under and instituting a consumption tax?

Why not discuss taxes as a force for economic incentive instead of just revenue for the government?

Why not investment in science and engineering and tax breaks for those who pursue degrees in those fields?

Bold new foreign policy initiatives?  Bold new economic policies?  Bold new social policies?  

I guess we need think tanks for stuff like that, but shouldnt the Democratic Leadership be able to come up with something?

my 2 cents...

by dayspring on Wed May 04, 2005 at 10:06:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Rubbish From Teixeira! (none / 0)

At the end of the day, it is really about candidates.

It will take candidates to formulate these policies.

Also, with regards to policies, the name of the game is getting them accomplished.  Results are what matter.  Just throwing out big ideas by itself won't get it done.

What the party needs to focus on is organization and coordination between the 3 levels of the party (DNC, state, county)

by v2aggie2 on Thu May 05, 2005 at 12:01:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Bold New Initiatives (none / 0)

What about universal health care?

Not bold and new enough for you?

I mean, it's only been in Germany since 1880.

See, sometimes that past is where the good ideas come from.

Then again, the GOP playbook is mostly from past ideas that were spectacular failures. The market deregulation policies that brought us the crashes of 1873 and 1893, and finally the Great Depression. The combination of church and state that brought Europe to the brink of self-annihilation in the wars of Reformation.  That kind of thing.

So, in short, it's not whether ideas are new or old that matters. It's whether they make sense and work.

by Paul Rosenberg on Thu May 05, 2005 at 03:40:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bold New Initiatives (none / 0)

I actually really admire the German healthcare system.  It's not so much a single payer system as it is a co-op system.  Basically people group together and elect a board that negotiates directly with healthcare providers.  This cuts out the middleman a.k.a. insurance companies.

BTW, I just realized the major thing I left out.  Infrastructure.  The Right's policies all come from their vast network of policy think tanks which are then "marketed" for lack of a better word by their linguistic and politics think tanks.  If you are a potential conservative candidate you are groomed, taught media and ready to hit the ground running with these policies.

Basically, that's the all encompassing problem that Lakoff and many, many others talk about.  W/O that infrastructure (messaging is only a part of it) the left cannot compete.  

And while candidates may be good, i think they are the exception rather than the rule.  I mean, look at Bush, he proves that the Right has an infrastructure in place that can get anyone elected.  And Bush isnt driving these policies as he is just the spokesperson for them.  

Goes to that op-ed piece that Bill Bradly wrote in the NYTimes a while back about how the Republicans (or rather the conservatives) built a pyramid and their presidential candidate sits at the top with the whole base and infrastructure supporting him while the Democrats' pyramid is upside down.  The Dem pres candidate has to build the base and infrastructure around his/her views and perspectives.  

by dayspring on Fri May 06, 2005 at 10:57:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This is idiotic (none / 0)

I have been noticing this meme against Lakoff spewing from the more DLC endowed bretheren since January ... so it must mean that Lakoff touched a nerve.

There are two sides of the Lakoff's frame:

  1. Democrats can use frames to better communicate their message

  2. Democrats can recognise a frame and avoid being framed by the Republicans

Frankly, the second has had a POWERFUL effect on the debate recently.

The grassroots have been quite effective in throwing off GOP frames. However, it is still sad to see Dem candidates like Casey using GOP frames as in " I am for erring of the side of life" that is when one realizes that the Dem establishment ... just doesn't want to get it.

Ruy turned off his comments like all the DLCers have... because it is better to hear the echo of their own voices that way.

We don't need no stinkin' opinions besides our own!!!!

Besides telling us how to live, think, marry, pray, vote, invest, educate our children and, die, the GOP has done a fine job of getting gov't out of our lives.
by Parker on Wed May 04, 2005 at 05:54:36 PM EST

Re: This is idiotic (1.00 / 1)

There you have it. A cunning linguist
can make the girls happy.

What do you know.

by turnerbroadcasting on Wed May 04, 2005 at 08:12:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This is idiotic (none / 0)

Lakoff is no longer the guru of the month guys.

This month it's God's politics by Jim Wallis.

The Republicans owe these gurus a great debt.  They keep our minds of the real issues.  How many of our guys died in Iraq today?  How do we frame useless deaths so as to make them acceptable to right wing Christians.  

How many innocent Iraqis have died as a result of our shock and awe show.  Let's try framing that so it's acceptable to Jesus.

Democratic politicians would not need Lakoff consultants if they spoke out of only one side of their mouths instead of two.

by jd2 on Wed May 04, 2005 at 08:42:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This is idiotic (none / 0)

Lakoff is no longer the guru of the month guys.

This month it's God's politics by Jim Wallis.

The Republicans owe these gurus a great debt.  They keep our minds of the real issues.  How many of our guys died in Iraq today?  How do we frame useless deaths so as to make them acceptable to right wing Christians.  

How many innocent Iraqis have died as a result of our shock and awe show.  Let's try framing that so it's acceptable to Jesus.

Democratic politicians would not need Lakoff consultants if they spoke out of only one side of their mouths instead of two.

by jd2 on Wed May 04, 2005 at 08:43:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This is idiotic (none / 0)

How do we frame useless deaths so as to make them acceptable to right wing Christians.

With respect, what the hell are you talking about?!?

by HadIt1 on Wed May 04, 2005 at 10:11:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Paul Said It (none / 0)

Paul beat me to it, but I'll say it again.  Lakoff, in his books and talks, says that part of the answer is for Progressives to build a network of think tanks that can develop the intellectual foundations for opposing the Right. He also advises the development of strategic initiatives (like Apollo).  Sheesh!
-- Seeing the Forest
by davej on Wed May 04, 2005 at 06:24:11 PM EST

Re: Paul Said It (3.00 / 1)

Paul has a tendency to do a lot of beating
just not the kind that wins elections.

I think his ancestors sold some secrets somewhere..
I can't remember if they got a good price.

Lakoff is, of course correct and your analysis
is more sound than P-bot.

Specifically, the think tanks that power the
world should be comprised of powerful men
and women dedicated to common cause.

The GOP isn't mysterious on this point.
Whats funny too is that all of this
rapid peeling away of the
work George is doing seems to be pointed
at "saving the labour unions" and watching TV..
and giving up on christianity.. oh, wait.. yes,
"democrats must work harder here.." riiight.
except that anything they do won't matter...

No, this is kind if a dumb thread.
Actually exactly the kind of thing
that covers up for a do-nothing congress.

I wish someone would post on just three
things.

1. Who's introducing any bills to balance
the budget?

2. Who's trying to introduce bills to stop
cramming all this pork into every bill
that comes along?

3. Anyone introduced anything aimed at
Media de-consolidation?

The point of 3 is to make things simpler
and nicer and less commercialised so
we can tune in and hear whats going
on with the other points..

Now, as I understand it, what the GOP does
is go around and find the senators that
help them out, and then internally really
get into the nitty gritty of things
to help them along. The christians in
fact are famous for this.

Much better organized than the GOP, they
end up with checklists of senators and
congressmen who head out for their values
and they make sure they're re-elected.

Are we going to get on with the business
of reform, or just keep whistlin' dixie.

"hookin up phrases and makin' em work right!"

by turnerbroadcasting on Wed May 04, 2005 at 08:18:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Paul Said It (none / 0)

Uh, er, you realize that what people here are trying to do is get Democrats elected so that they can pass bills.  Part of those bills being passed should include dealing with media consolodation, et al., but really, they cannot do that until they get elected.

In order to get elected, people have to vote for them.  In order to get people to vote for them, Democrats have to convince said people that voting for Democrats is worth their while.  In order to convince voters of their worthiness, they have to get the message to them that they share the voters' values and concerns.  Getting the message to them requires wording speeches, advertisements, reaching-out programs, and all of that in ways that will show the nature of Democratic values and conerns.

It's not just smoke and mirrors.  It is about convincing people to vote for Democrats.

by nanoboy on Wed May 04, 2005 at 09:17:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Democratic Myths (none / 0)

In order to win, Democrats must be unified. It's wrong to tear down a fellow Democrat. It's even wrong to tear down a Republican. This is the way the Republican "noise machine" works against Democrats. Democrats must show that they are different: they believe in American unity.

When it comes to ideas, we must discuss them thoroughly. It seems to me, though, that you are taking a very pessimistic approach. Merely because Democrats are not as well organized as Republicans does not mean we can't get our message out. In all 4 areas you mention, Democrats have a much stronger message than Republicans.

Our major job is to get the message out. We have a great start in using the Internet. I think now we should expand into town hall meetings all over the country.

by PaulSiegel on Wed May 04, 2005 at 06:27:40 PM EST

Green (none / 0)

The notion that Green's piece on Lakoff was somehow "devastating" is ridiculous. The usually opinion-less Taegan Goddard recommended the piece so highly that I finally went and read it... and it was mostly empty. Which is sort of surprising, because I'm often fond of Green and he usually does great, very in-depth work.

But I hardly think that one short magazine article really did Lakoff in.

by DavidNYC on Wed May 04, 2005 at 06:45:20 PM EST

Re: Green (3.00 / 2)

Yea, I get the feeling that this is an inside-the-beltway group reaction that's going on toward Lakoff. I doubt they've even opened Moral Politics.

Lakoff offers no new policy ideas.

Big fucking deal. As if that matters in an era of Republican trifecta. What matters is stopping Republicans from winning the message, and for that, Lakoff's lessons have kicked ass, and have already been part of a huge success in the Senate effectively winning the frame/debate/non-action over  Social Security and the Filibuster...  Why? because the frame of debate was set by the Democrats (sure, they used Republican fumbles, really, but we'll take what we get)...  

...meanwhile, the policy wonks in the DLC side sit on the sideline wondering when they can get the D's back to the table-- without a doubt, to get our clocks cleaned again.

by Jerome Armstrong on Wed May 04, 2005 at 07:58:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Green (3.00 / 1)

What's even more amazing is that Ruy's prescription is this:

Sorry, Democrats, there's just no substitute for good ideas and fresh approaches. It's time to jettison these myths and buckle down to the real work of change--serious change--in what Democrats say to voters.

"Change in what Democrats say to voters" - jeez, sounds a hell of a lot like what Lakoff might say!

by DavidNYC on Wed May 04, 2005 at 10:03:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Green (none / 0)

My thoughts, exactly, David!
by HadIt1 on Wed May 04, 2005 at 10:29:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Green (none / 0)

I doubt they've even opened Moral Politics.

"Moral Politics"??  You think the DC Dem crowd even APPROACHED that Lakoff book?  THAT one is a bit too dense and "academic" for them without any policy statements, don't you think?

I doubt they even read "Elephant" either.  They probably read the Wall Street Journal (or NRO?) editorial about it, and figured Lakoff wasn't worth the read.

Then they cracked open their collection of David Brooks' essays.

by HadIt1 on Wed May 04, 2005 at 10:27:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Green (3.00 / 1)

Lakoff doesn't really offer much at all, to be honest.

Pro-Birth?  Strict Father?  Nurturing?
Whatever...

Here is a novel concept:  Instead of a litany of policy statements or quirky "academic" ideas from latte linguists, let's tell a story.  A story of what we believe.  A story people can relate to.

Clinton did it.  And I don't think he needed Lakoff.  True, he had charisma.

Sometimes, we make politics harder than it has to be.  It isn't brain surgery, folks
Sometimes,

by v2aggie2 on Thu May 05, 2005 at 12:12:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Green (none / 0)

I read Green's piece in the Atlantic, and was flabbergasted by its stupidity.  The only thing it convinced me of, is that Green never read Moral Politics (or if he did, he's doing a mighty good job forgetting everything that was in it and pretending he hasn't).  Now I wonder the same thing about Teixeira.  It sounds like a hyper-simplistic concept associated with "Lakoff" by people who read some article about him, has been going around the echo chamber.
by cos on Thu May 05, 2005 at 12:06:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

It's the Same Old Song (none / 0)

Lots of generalities about things like going after the white male working class vote.  Sure, good idea that.  But what specifically are we talking about?  How can we do this without alienating black voters and women?  I found Ruy's post to be about as useful as saying Democrats should go after more votes. How about some fucking specifics?
by kaleidescope on Wed May 04, 2005 at 06:47:51 PM EST

Several comments; (3.00 / 1)

First, nice analysis on the whole Chris.

Secondly, stop fetishizing Lakoff. He is not the messiah. He has some valuable ideas, but the guy does not represent the key to the promised land. BTW, the "Appollo Project" was one of Dick Gephardt's key ideas. All the Democrats had some derivative of this. Now, did they foreground it as well as they could have? No. But I don't think the Appollo Project solves what, for me, is the key problem for Demcrats:

Which is, my third point, that anyone interested in the Democrats consistently winning Presidential elections in the foreseeable are going to have to face up squarely to the fact that we need to nominate a hawk. Changing "the frame" is going to avoid the fact that this is the missing piece for Democrats. Like it or not, the country as a whole is instinctively hawkish or at leat feels comfortable with candidates whom are instinctively hawkish. The GWOT is going to be the frame into the foreseeable future, much as the Cold War once was.

by Ben P on Wed May 04, 2005 at 07:09:55 PM EST

Re: Several comments; (none / 0)

I should clarify: I don't think Lakoff's advice is without merit. Indeed, I think his identification of language and its uses is very important. I just don't want people to become so fixated on language use as the answer.
by Ben P on Wed May 04, 2005 at 08:03:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Dead Wrong . . . (3.00 / 2)

In my opinion, the American public is not nearly as hawkish as is usually thought. This is from the January PIPA study about Americans' foreign policy views:

The consensus positions were as follows:

THE US ROLE IN THE WORLD

    * Do not pursue a general policy that emphasizes disengagement nor US dominance, but rather multilateral cooperation
    * Make preventing the spread of nuclear weapons and combating international terrorism the top priorities in US foreign policy

MULTILATERAL INSTITUTIONS

    * Strengthen the UN
    * Take part in UN peacekeeping
    * Comply with adverse WTO decisions
    * Participate in the International Criminal Court
    * Give the WHO the power to intervene

US MILITARY CAPACITY

    * Do not make further increases in the number of US military bases
    * Do not make further increases in defense spending
    * Do not develop new types of nuclear weapons
    * Continue research on missile defense but do not deploy until proven effective
    * Ratify the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty
    * Participate in the Land Mines Treaty

THE USE OF US MILITARY FORCE: PRINCIPLES

    * Only go to war with a government that is developing weapons of mass destruction or supporting terrorists if there is an imminent threat to the US, or the UN Security Council approves
    * Use US military force to deal with a humanitarian crisis, especially to stop genocide
    * Do not use US military force to replace dictators with democratic governments
    * Do not use nuclear weapons except in response to a nuclear attack

THE WAR ON TERROR

    * In the effort to fight terrorism, strengthen international law through multilateral institutions, use military force, promote economic development of poor countries and be even-handed in the Israel-Palestinian conflict
    * Do not use torture to gain information Do not use torture to gain information....

This is not neocon hawk stuff.

The problem with the Democratic political elite is that either they do not believe in, or they are afraid to stand up for, real progressive positions on domestic and foreign policy issues. The biggest complaint people have about Democrats is "don't know what they stand for," because they keep trying to be things they are not in a vain attempt to tell the American people what they (the politicians) think they (the people) want to hear.

Case in point: Kerry's advisors' take on the Apollo Initiative:

We did a poll and found that more than 70 percent of voters in Ohio and Pennsylvania supported a $30 billion annual investment in energy efficiency and clean energy. Having never seen such high numbers supporting any government program, the pollster to the Steelworkers, an Apollo ally, stressed in a poll question he asked that the $30 billion annual investment would come from TAXPAYER money. A funny thing happened: support for Apollo went up. . . .

Kerry's economic advisers objected to our investment plan. "The country wants to see deficit reduction," they said. . . .

The argument that we need to nominate a "hawk" to win is of the same variety as those that say we need to dump abortion or gay rights or "big government" whatever. It's just inside-the-beltway conventional wisdom that has zero evidence in favor of it.

by tgeraghty on Wed May 04, 2005 at 08:17:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dead Wrong . . . (none / 0)

Dang, tgeraghty, you hit on both the cards I was going to play!

Can I see what's up your sleeves?

by Paul Rosenberg on Wed May 04, 2005 at 09:04:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dead Wrong . . . (none / 0)

I guess we just sort of think alike.
by tgeraghty on Wed May 04, 2005 at 10:46:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dead Wrong . . . (none / 0)

Firstly, I should say I'm not advocating nominating an out-and-out neocon. But I do think that someone like Hillary Clinton, Joe Biden, and Evan Bayh fit the bill, certainly in the short term. Frankly, I don't believe - or place much credence in - those PIPA polling numbers. I have seen them before, and I don't believe them. Or, I don't believe people are being entirely honest. I mean, if those polls are to believed, how the hell did Bush win the last election?

Ultimately, its not about whether or not Iraq was the right or wrong decision, or any foreign policy position that can be easily quantified in a polling question. Its that a key segment of the electorate just trusts Bush's more aggressive instincts - and will always, on some visceral level, trust a "decisive" candidate over a "vascillating" one. Like Clinton said - Americans will pick, always, "strong and wrong over right and weak."

Anyway, this is more an analysis of the short term situation. As you - and Paul - would surely acknowledge, I think all the stuff about setting the agenda, framing, media control, etc.. is vitally important, but can't be changed quickly. Its going to take years to do. So in the short term, best go with a Hillary  Clinton or Evan Bayh for Pres. (assuming there are no major shocks to American society - ie another massive terrorist attack, and economic collapse, etc. - in the next several years)

by Ben P on Wed May 04, 2005 at 09:12:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dead Wrong . . . (3.00 / 1)

Bush won the election because elections are not about issues. That is why Ruy is completely wrong and Lakoff is still right. Ruy is stuck in a laundry list mind set, re-packaged as a new idea mind set.

Yielding to the Beinart temptation to nominate a neo-con light is the last thing we want to do. Once again, Democrats would conceed that Bush was right to invade Iran and maybe the neo-cons are right about the clash of civilizations and permanent warfare.

Biden and Bayh are already finished in a Democratic primary because of their bankruptcy vote. In a couple of years people in Iowa and New Hampshire are going to be going bankrupt under the new law and really pissed off.

Hillary, who knows? Who knows where she stands on anything? Hillary is popular by force of reputation and the Clinton myth more than anything else. What is her new and improved stand on abortion? On the Pharmacist Right to Discriminate Against Women Act? On Iraq? On anything?  

The reason DLC types don't like framing is that framing doesn't work for centrism. How do you frame the middle of the road? The only Democrat I see who has a chance in 2008 is Howard Dean. The Democratic party needs to attack Bush and the Republican nominee in 2008 from the left, not the right or the center.

by Gary Boatwright on Wed May 04, 2005 at 09:31:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dead Wrong . . . (none / 0)

How do you frame the middle of the road?

"Yellow lines and dead armadillos."

Jim Hightower said that.

"I'll let you be in my dream if I can be in yours."

Bob Dylan said that.

This non-sequiter has been brought to you by my late-night insomnia.

by Paul Rosenberg on Thu May 05, 2005 at 04:12:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Huh? (none / 0)

Huh indeed.  How does you comment contradict Gary's?

As Chris has argued at lengths before, Democrats need to build up and defend liberalism in order to win, whether they self-identify as liberals or not.  Chris and I and many others here have made the same point you made about the Democrats not having a clear, substantive message/image. And these two things go together.

As a matter of fact, America is a fairly liberal country--not on everything, but on most things--if you look at people's attitudes, values and policy preferences. It's only when you look at self-indentification and a set of ideological principles--stuff like individual responsibility, trusting the market, etc.--that America looks conservative.  

But this was as true of America in 1964, when LBJ whopped Goldwater 60-40 as it was last year when Bush just squeeked by Kerry.  The difference was, (1) in 1964 the GOP didn't have the propaganda infrastructure it now has, and (2) the media actually covered issues back then. So, while people might have agreed with Goldwater in the abstract--preferring less government to more--when it came down to specifics they agreed with Johnson overwhelming--more government to do X, Y and Z, because they cared about X, Y and Z.

by Paul Rosenberg on Thu May 05, 2005 at 04:22:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dead Wrong . . . (3.00 / 1)

I guess we can argue all night about how accurate these PIPA polls are; I'd be interested to hear why you think they are so inaccurate -- you're not the first person who has said this. Because people are lying? Bush voters are ashamed of their true views?

I think part of the problem is that Bush voters think his views are a lot more liberal than they really are:

So part of our challenge is to inform people as to just how out of the mainstream Bush foreign policy positions really are.

by tgeraghty on Wed May 04, 2005 at 10:42:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dead Wrong . . . (3.00 / 1)

Another thing . .  . didn't we already try this with Kerry, and fail? Wasn't the whole point of nominating Kerry his "electability" - he had the military hero record; he voted to give the President the authority to go into Iraq; he wasn't Howard Dean?

Besides, look what Bush did to McCain in 2000. Let's face it, there is nobody the Dems could nominate who the RWNM would not attempt to savage as being weak on defense.

Hillary? She'll have every perceived anti-defense policy of Bill's administration wrapped like an anvil around her neck.

Biden? They'll just do to him what they did to Kerry -- find every vote that could be construed as "weak on defense."

Maybe Bayh has a short enough track record that he could emerge unscathed, but that seems a weak reed on which to place our hopes to win back the White House.

by tgeraghty on Wed May 04, 2005 at 10:54:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dead Wrong . . . (none / 0)

Actually, to be honest, I think Kerry lost because he did not come off as credible enough on national defense, he was seen as weak and idecisively, vaguely antiwar. Its not going to get any better moving "left" on the defense issue.

Ben P

by Ben P on Wed May 04, 2005 at 11:04:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dead Wrong . . . (3.00 / 1)

Something Chris Bowers wrote a few days ago is relevant here:

Terrorism voters are not looking, for leaders in government to keep Americans safe from terrorism, they want to keep America safe from terrorism. They are interested in and eager to fight a clash of civilizations that is based upon a reductive view of identity, and they want their leaders in government to carry out that fight: American-ness versus Other-ness. Just like traditional notions of gender and sexuality being antithetical with liberalism, this reductive view of civilization identities is itself antithetical with liberalism, which at its very core is nothing if not pluralistic.

"Terrorism" voters are national security voters who went for Bush something like 80-20. I presume these are the people you would be trying to reach by nominating a "hawk."

The problem is, it'll never work. These people will not jump to the Democrats just because we nominate Biden or Hillary. Are you kidding me? They will do to them exactly what they did to Kerry.

We will never win the foreign policy issue by playing on the conservative end of the field. We have to recast the whole debate. We can't do that by pretending that we are hawks and putting off the recasting until later.

by tgeraghty on Wed May 04, 2005 at 11:47:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Again With All My Points (none / 0)

In this whole series of comments. About PIPA, about Chris's analysis.

But there is one thing I can add: Kerry lost because he didn't stand up for himself.  Period.

This is why Jesse Jackson is far more credible on national security than John Kerry, despite being far more dovish.  Because Jackson stands up for what he believes, and isn't afraid to say something unpopular.  He will defend people who are unfairly attacked, including himself.  And that's a model for most American's vision of what America stands for in the world.

by Paul Rosenberg on Thu May 05, 2005 at 04:05:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dead Wrong . . . (none / 0)

You don't believe the PIPA polls because they blow your argument to smithereens, I'm afraid.  But what evidence do you have to contradict them?  The fact that Bush eeked out a close win?  But PIPA's polls explained that, too. Their polling showed that many of his supporters had no idea what his positions were.  They're hardly the only ones to reveal this fact. They just did a darned good job of analyzing it.

PIPA represents the very top echelon of public opinion research.  I've interviewed a number of them over the years for stories on their polls and other matters, too.  They are fantastically sophisticated about what they do, both about the ways they go about asking questions, and the ways in which they interpret the results.

by Paul Rosenberg on Thu May 05, 2005 at 03:53:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dead Wrong . . . (none / 0)

I think edwards is the ticket if we are really going to take a shot at making our economic case to America.  We can shore him up with someone like Clark for VP.
by descrates on Thu May 05, 2005 at 12:28:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dead Wrong . . . (3.00 / 1)

We don't need a "hawk," if by hawk you mean someone like Biden who calmmors for more war. But, to say that we don't need someone who is seen as strong on security is just plain wrong.

And there's zero evidence to back up the claim that we need to be stronger on security? I guess it's a little backwards to ask for evidence of a lack of evidence, so here's a great article on the subject by Louis Menand dealing with both the difficulties in political polling and the security voter question.

Why did President Bush win this election?" Gary Langer, the director of polling at ABC News, said at the Stanford conference. "I would suggest that the answer can be expressed in a single phrase: 9/11." No one there disagreed. "Fifty-four per cent of voters on Election Day said that the country was safer now than it was before September 11, 2001," Langer pointed out. "And perhaps, I would suggest, more important, forty-nine per cent of voters said they trusted only President Bush to handle terrorism, eighteen points more than said they trusted only John Kerry." He went on, "Among those who trust only Bush to handle terrorism, ninety-seven per cent, quite logically, voted for him. Now, right there, if forty-nine per cent of Americans trust only Bush to handle terrorism and ninety-seven per cent of them voted for him, those are forty-eight of his total fifty-one percentage points in this election. Throw in a few more votes on ancillary issues and that's all she wrote." Langer thinks that a key statistic is the change in the votes of married women. Gore won the women's vote by eleven per cent; Kerry won by only three per cent, and he lost most of those votes among married women. Bush got forty-nine per cent of the votes of married women in 2000; he got fifty-five per cent this year. And when you ask married women whom they trust to keep the country safe from terrorists fifty-three per cent say "only Bush." (The really salient demographic statistic from the election is one that most Democrats probably don't even want to think about: If white men could not vote, Kerry would have defeated Bush by seven million votes.)

Assuming that the election did come down to a referendum on terrorism, there was very little that a Democrat could have done to win it. Kerry could not change the subject; war and terrorism were in the news every day. According to Mellman, polls showed that although only thirty-three per cent of voters thought that the invasion of Iraq was worth it, fifty-two per cent thought that it was the right thing to do. Those are tough numbers from which to devise a campaign strategy. They are the numbers behind Kerry's notorious trouble in parsing the matter of his own position on the invasion--his attempt to criticize the outcome but not the decision. It's getting hard to remember now, when Iraq has become a violent and ungovernable mess, but the invasion of Iraq had overwhelming public approval, and people don't like to admit that they were wrong. Neither does the President. It's one of the attributes that voters seem to identify with.


We don't need to move to the right, but we certainly need to do more to repair our image on NatSec.
Future Majority / Young Philly Politics
by Alex Urevick on Thu May 05, 2005 at 11:55:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

OK (none / 0)

This is more along the lines of what I mean. I think the problem here is more of an existential one than a policy one. Its that Kerry was perceived as a guy who what sit around and think, wonder what it is that is causing terrorism, rather than a guy who's instinct would be action. Its not any of his policy positions per se. Thats what I mean by "hawk." Not someone who wants to go and, say, invade Syria.

So, I guess the short version of my comments is that I agree with you and that people who want to dismiss the fact that Bush polls significantly and consistently well on one issue and then try to find ways to dismiss why the population - and not just a subset of voters who named terrorism as the most important voting issue during last fall's election - as a whole will choose "strong and wrong over right and weak"

by Ben P on Thu May 05, 2005 at 02:45:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: OK (none / 0)

See Tom Frank's recent NY Review of Books (kind of ironic) piece, "Whats the Matter with Liberalism?" for more of what I mean.
by Ben P on Thu May 05, 2005 at 02:47:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: OK (none / 0)

The problem here is more of an existential one than a policy one. Its that Kerry was perceived as a guy who what sit around and think, wonder what it is that is causing terrorism, rather than a guy who's instinct would be action.

This is exactly the same kind of argument made by people (see: Amy Sullivan et. al.) who say that the Democrats need to "inoculate" themselves on the culture war issues by, say, bashing Hollywood without really doing anything about it (none of them are for "censorship," of course, just more studies and so on).

Please, Ben P, explain to me how we can convince the American people that we are "men of action" without actually being in favor of invading Iraq or Syria -- that is, of doing anything about it -- since I gather you are not too keen on these military misadventures (correct me if I'm wrong).

This is nonsense. The neocons, who actually are in favor of moving into Syria, Iran, and destabilizing Saudi Arabia, will always be able to trump us on the "men of action" meme. The American people will see right through our attempts to pretend that we are hawks without being willing to actually do something about it.

Again, we need to recast the debate. We need to explain to people that long and hard thought about the nature of terrorism and how best to combat it is an absolute precondition to taking any action. It's the rational way of doing things.

Now, if the American people can't handle that, or don't agree with it, that's their business. All we can do is offer our approach (look before leaping), which does have the particular advantage of being the right way to go about doing things. If people don't buy it, they may then be suprised to find world leadership passing to other nations. So be it. They can lie in the bed they have made.

For the umpteenth time: We will not get anywhere pretending to be something we are not, and we need to stop apologizing for what we are. We are thinkers; we do insist that actions be justified beforehand on rational grounds. There is absolutely nothing wrong (and in fact, everything right) with that. What we have to do is create a situation in which being seen as thinking people willing to take responsible action is the right and proper method of dealing with foreign policy.    

It's been done before by people like FDR, Truman, Acheson, Marshall, and the other liberal internationalists who created the postwar world. They had their crazies on their right goading them to "rollback communism" or "unleash Chiang-Kai Shek" or whatever. They were smart enough, and confident enough in their abilities and their approach to world affairs that they didn't listen. We need the same confidence and resolve now.

by tgeraghty on Thu May 05, 2005 at 03:16:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Believing ABC Is Dead Wrong . . . (3.00 / 2)

Taking your ques from the director of polling at ABC is generally not a good idea.  It's a view from the very heart of conventional wisdom land. PIPA is far more reliable. They are academics and they are deeply skeptical of conventional wisdom land. After all, as social scientists they know all about socially constructed realities, share belief systems, socialization rituals, and all that sort of stuff that contributes to inside-the-Beltway cohesion aka total fucking cluelessness about what's going on in the rest of the country.
Specifically, PIPA has a long history of digging into why people believe what they believe. For example, most people want to cut foreign aid. Why? Because they think it's an order of magnitude higher than it actually is. PIPA wasn't the first to turn up this fact. They just went after it with a vengeance. In fact, they went after the whole myth of a "new isolationism" after the Cold War, a cenral element of the conventional wisdom of the 1990s.  

So when you say that so many people trusted "only George Bush" to protect them from terrorism, and that this is why he was re-elected, this may be the end of the inquiry for ABC, but it's only the beginning for PIPA.  And that's where we've got to turn our attention--not just in this case, to PIPA, but in all cases to those who keep breaking things down and asking questions just where the CW gang thinks it has given us definitive answers.

Now, I admit, that's all a bit abstact. The concrete particulars of some of PIPA's results have already been posted elsewhere in this discussion.  But the particulars of how Kerry could have won also need to be addressed. This is pretty simple.

Bush/Rove beat Kerry by connecting lies about Vietnam (Kerry wasn't a hero then) to lies about terrorism today (so he won't protect America today).  All that Kerry had to do was connect the truth about Vietnam (Bush ran away) to the truth about terrorism (Bush ran away). Kerry couldn't do it, wouldn't do it.  It violated the Bob Shrum/DLC rules of always losing by the Beltway code. In fact, he interferred with others who wanted to do it. He took deadly aim and shot himself in the foot. Twice. That was hardly something beyond his control.

Every time a DLC-style campaign fails, the DLC-types come back and say, "That was a terrible failure!  You've got to move farther to the right."   Ironically, the least DLC-style campaign came from their one success: Bill Clinton in 1992, who ran with the populist slogan of "Putting People First," and then turned around and shafted people first.  But even then, they attacked him for not governing far enough to the right of where he campaigned.

The situation with war hawks is no different. You could run Attila the Hun, and the GOP would attack him as a pansy for not invading the Americas.  And the DLC would come back in the next election, and say, "Gotta move farther to the right. How about a Cortez/Hitler ticket?"

by Paul Rosenberg on Thu May 05, 2005 at 02:58:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Nominating A Hawk (none / 0)

How about Pinochet?

I hear that he's available, and not feeling all that comfortable in Chile any more.

by Paul Rosenberg on Wed May 04, 2005 at 09:08:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nominating A Hawk (none / 0)

Be serious.
by Ben P on Wed May 04, 2005 at 09:13:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nominating A Hawk (none / 0)

You First.

(That was sort of my point, code-talker.)

by Paul Rosenberg on Thu May 05, 2005 at 02:57:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Several comments; (none / 0)

Lakoff is unfortunately being demonized.  We first must change and shape an agenda that willl resonate with Americans, and then decide on a complete and unified strategy for our party that is clear and strong.  Americans fear terrorism. Period.  But we need to shape an agenda that is not a neo-con/left version.  We have plenty to say....but we are not saying it.   Lakoff remains right about one thing.....get into the subtext (branding) of what you want to convey,.....and frame it in language that captures the conscious and subliminal aspects of message.   It's called Advertising.    Without an understanding of the importance of branding/word framing, all the agendas and messages will get LOST.  First, of course, we have to be clear about what we stand for.  Then, we have to learn how to frame [explain] it.
by morris1030 on Thu May 05, 2005 at 09:26:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Several comments; (none / 0)

I see your point about nominating a 'hawk' but I have a fundamental disagreement about this in that responding to fear (manufactured or real) is not leading but following and it presents an inherent contradiction.
While I don't think Lakoff is a messiah, I do think that, especially with respect to the 'hawkishness' of candidates, framing and fear-mongering was critical in painting the pseudo-service of GWB with the in-country service of John Kerry.

This is not a one cycle or two cycle turn around. The right-wing message machine has been working for more than twenty years to hone the channels and leadership of the debate.
We should lead and not be (only) sucked into the debate by defining who we are through responding to who we are not.

by elemgee on Thu May 05, 2005 at 12:05:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Several comments; (none / 0)

First... at least in this post, Chris did not "fetishize" Lakoff or make any comment even remotely close to him being a "messiah." So your comments is way off base. What Chris said was that framing is a part of the answer. That how we say things is always important and always something we could do better. That's it.

Second... the republican lite strategy you suggest is just another attempt at "inoculation" that Ruy... correctly poo-poo's. Democrats won't get elected President by pretending to be Republicans. Ask Harry Truman his opinion on that.

The 10,000 Things
by Andrew C White on Thu May 05, 2005 at 03:10:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Several comments; (none / 0)

Not criticizing Chris. I'm criticizing a general tendency among some folks treat Lakoff's work like the Weathermen treated Mao's Little Red Book.

Second, see my refinement of my initial point. If folks don't perceive you as being dead serious about defending America, standing up for the US, they won't vote for you. Its not about stating especially hawkish in terms of policy.

Ben P

by Ben P on Thu May 05, 2005 at 03:18:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I am so tired of this! A good idea is a good idea! (none / 0)

This is all completely bizzaro, in my opinion.

When a new good idea -or an old good idea presented in a nice understandable way, - comes along, people looking for help when they feel helpless will grab tight to that idea like a life preserver.  

I just don't understand why, when some people OVEREMPHASIZE or misuse a good idea, some others decide the only answer is to DESTROY that idea.  I mean isn't that what the GOP does?  What about using that perfectly good idea in all the ways that it's useful, learning its limits!  Then keep developing all the other good strategies, as well.  

It's like saying, "Tanks alone won't defeat the Axis, not without bullets.  So what the hell do we need tanks for?  We just need really shiny bullets!"   Crazy talk!  You need guns to shoot the bullets, tanks or infantry to hold the guns, and bullets to be shot from the guns.  All working together.

Thinking about the life preserver, if someone clinging to a life preserver in the middle of the Pacific Ocean said, "all I need to do is hold tight to this and all will be well and I'll get back safely home!" he'd be wrong.  Sharkbait wrong.

If he said, "I don't need this tired old floaty thing!  I need to be on dry land!!" and then tossed the preserver to the winds, he'd be wrong.  Drowned and bloated wrong.

A smarter thing to say might be: "whew.  This is a good start.  But all this is doing is keeping me afloat.  But now I AM ABOVE WATER.  That's good.  Now, what are the other things I need?  Oh, I think that's one of the life boats from the sunken ship!  It's far away but I'll use the floaty thing to help me get there.  Thank God!  Next I need to either find food and water rations if they are there, or learn to fish and collect rain water, then find out which way is north, then..."

OK, you get the drift.  Enough analogy.

If it's not clear, I like more what Chris is saying, and less Ruy.  I think Ruy is cool, though :)

by HadIt1 on Wed May 04, 2005 at 08:00:40 PM EST

LOL thats a good one! (1.00 / 1)

Yep, I take mine from the anglican church
in America.

" although I know its absurd, I wonder what
they would say if they could speak!"

Actually being liberal is kind of nice.
Here are some ways:

  1. Apply that on me liberally, young lady.
  2. Soldier, give that position a liberal dose.
  3. We will pay liberal amounts for our homeland.
  4. Liberal fire on that Tora Bora mountainside.
  5. Liberate Iraq from the Towelheads.
  6. Liberate America from the Corporations
  7. Send Liberal amounts of diplomats to North Korea.
  8. Ahh Ms. Moneypenney. Thats it. Use Liberal pressure.
  9. I spend liberal time with my children.
  10.  Mmm... that tastes liberal. Delicious.

Here are some things that you can do with conservative..

  1.  Hey I heard you can take something for being conservative.
  2.  Those are conservative soldiers rummaging for  armor
  3. I guess you could say I'm a steward of conservatism
  4. Conservatives do it even though they have less.
  5. Conserve your favorite corporation.
  6. Conservative Blogs: No Comment.
  7. Conservation and Conservatism don't mix.
  8. Turn on your conservatism and I'll see you tomorrow.
  9. All the little children are growing so conservative. Maybe they need exercise.
  10.  Waitress.. this tastes.. conservative. Can I have some A-1 steaksauce please?

>:)

by turnerbroadcasting on Wed May 04, 2005 at 08:28:54 PM EST

Just a thought (1.00 / 2)

Tennessee police officer Gary Dockery, who was brain damaged in a 1988 shooting, began speaking to his family one day in 1996, telling jokes and recounting annual winter camping trips. But after 18 hours, he never repeated the unbridled conversation of that day, ..He died the following year of a blood clot on his lung.

..  so many people out there that want to help...
maybe there's a sense in us that can tell if
someone has a heart. For example, is Chris a
christian?

put the turtleneck on and sound neat
about all the ways we fail

but please, put your money n the first thing that
gets a farmer, a poet, and a priest
to the same table.  Don't discount
that it could all change, in just one day -

A moment of clarity. Looks like the dems
have had a spinal transplant and the graft
is taking well...

But that doesn't mean you can stand up.
Doesn't mean you're awake... would be nice
if the communism of china becomes the liberalism
of the democrats and the economy of hong kong
becomes the economy of america.

I know I am dreaming now, but did you know
that they just file a tax return, by taking
10% of what they make, on a single piece
of paper, and pay it?

Good luck y'all.

by turnerbroadcasting on Wed May 04, 2005 at 08:43:38 PM EST

I think this post comes off a bit alarmist (3.00 / 1)

While I do believe its necessary to build an enduring ideological movement on par with the conservatives, I think that would result more likely in an electoral hegemony for liberals, not just keeping up with the republicans.

We only lost by 2.5 percent to war time president with the glow of 9/11 still upon him.  That means, IMHO, that we could probably sit on our hands for the next 3 years and still come up with either a win or a respectable loss--especially considering the Iraq debacle that will have either recently ended or still be going on.

The only reason the republicans are at parity with us is because that they spent 40 years developing the most awesomely insidious  propaganda machine in human history.  If we had anything near their organizational power, we would control everything from state to local to federal.

by descrates on Wed May 04, 2005 at 08:51:43 PM EST

Re: I think this post comes off a bit alarmist (none / 0)

Yes, I mainly agree.

I think what we have distinguish between is short term and long term strategy. Short term strategy really doesn't require we do all that much. I think running somebody with a more common touch and more convincing national security "toughness" (in some ways, I just think this is an existential, intangible thing - not a question of policy positioning - at least vis-a-vis Kerry's STATED positions - so much), the Dems could well win back the White House in 2008. Letting Social Security and the Religious Right do some damage won't hurt either. But this is more a treading water strategy.

In terms of reclaiming the agenda - ie long term strategy -  and recapturing the policy debate and agenda from GOP territory requires some of the more radical, far-reaching strategies to which Chris alludes.

by Ben P on Wed May 04, 2005 at 09:05:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Social Security is Key Issue for Future (none / 0)

Letting Social Security and the Religious Right do some damage won't hurt either. But this is more a treading water strategy.

No I think that the Social Security issue in particular needs to be used as much as possible. 

I just read the article that Chris Bowers links to above, Ideological State Apparatuses by U. Mass. economics professor Richard Wolff.  I had never been exposed to the thinking of  Louis Althusser before and reading Prof. Wolff filled in a big gap in my knowledge of modern Marxist thinking.  I was particularly struck by the last part of the article where he talks about how he sees the key ideological element in preserving a stable society in America as being an organized pushing of consumerism.

In his view, although the rate of exploitation of labor has been really very high in the United States, the growing productivity of labor has made it possible to keep increasing the level of consumption of American workers.  And the ideology of consumerism has made American workers willing to accept the high personal and family costs of their intense labor.

So if steadily increasing productivity and increased consumption, together with an ethic of consumerism pushed by "Ideological State Apparatuses" (as Althusser would call them) are key to American stability, then how does that other pillar supporting of our society,  Social Security, fit into that picture?

Well very well.  Because it is a system generally designed to set the level of retirement benefits not at some defined level of consumption but as a percentage of  per-retirement income it thereby extends the promise of expanded consumption into retirement and thus bolsters a key pillar of American society.  

But it is this very foundational element Social Security that the "progressive indexing," or modified Pozen plan,  that Bush is pushing would undermine.  The Pozen plan finds "extra" money in Social Security in the fact that historically in America wages increase faster than prices.  This is of course a result of rising productivity and is what enables increasing levels of consumption by Americans.  By just telling Americans that their retirement income in the future will be fixed in real terms rather than increased in line with future increases of productivity the bean-counters of Cato have found the money to "save" Social Security.

One of the critics of the plan points out that a large part of the projected deficit of the Social Security plan is based on an assumption that there will be a marked slowing in the growth of productivity in the next 50 years and that by assuming the most pessimistic view of this and then adjusting future benefits now to match that picture the Bush/Posen Plan take creates a plan that deprives future retirees of any of the benefits that would come if productivity increases more than the pessimistic projections.

To put it another way the more future productivity increases are above the lowest projections the smaller the actual deficit will be but the greater will be the cuts in post-retirement income that proposal would establish.  If middle class Americans can be made to understand the real meaning of the Bush/Pozen Plan we can tie Bush and the Republicans to third rail and run them down in 06 and 08.

by Fred in Vermont on Thu May 05, 2005 at 09:04:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Well, yeah (3.00 / 1)

"I think that would result more likely in an electoral hegemony for liberals, not just keeping up with the republicans."

That sounds pretty good. Crush the contemporary manifestation of the Republican party so badly that they are forced to transform. That is ultimate victory.

by Chris Bowers on Wed May 04, 2005 at 11:54:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Well, yeah (none / 0)

Ding! Ding!
by Frontier PAC on Thu May 05, 2005 at 12:22:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

And The Numbers Are There To Prove It (none / 0)

Even the conservative base--people who self-identify as conservative or conservative-leaning--is often more in line with Democratic positions than Republican ones. There's lots of polling data--such as the General Social Survey over the past 33 years--to back this up.  That's why the GOP has to lie, mislead, distort, distract and demonize so relentlessly.  If we get anywhere close to parity with them, they won't be able to elect a dog-catcher in the heart of Texas.
by Paul Rosenberg on Thu May 05, 2005 at 03:01:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Food for my brains (none / 0)

Chris Bowers is one smart motherfucker.

My brains are full everytime I read his thoughts.

Nap time.

by Sam Loomis on Wed May 04, 2005 at 09:23:33 PM EST

Chris has problems, here are some solutions (3.00 / 1)

Education: The left fixates on issues such as abortion in such a way that it seems like the prime liberal constituency is unmarried people without families.  Education is a family issue. One of these days, I'm going to run some numbers and look at the family status of liberals and conservatives and see if this imbalance is because conservatives are just more likely to have kids and have a personal interest in education and school boards or if liberal parents are just less interested.  (Are school boards predominantly female these days?  Are housewives just more inclined to participate?)

Labor: We can't just say we need to build unions.  We have a changing economy.  We need a reimagining of unions. We need to concentrate more on unionizing service industries. (See unions such as SEUI.)  We need to figure out a way to have unions or pseudo-unions in more technical, educated fields.  How many unions or union-like organizations are there in fields besides education which require a college degree?

Media: This is where framing is important.  The left has been downright horrid in manipulating message to get maximum airplay.  Even if the mainstream media is in the hands of corporate America, proper framing will get more of the liberal message out there than is currently getting through the media.

Religion: When we talk about mobilizing a religious left, what we are really talking about is a mobilizing the Christian left because other religious groups are a) too small and b) mostly in the Democratic camp so they can be taken for granted for the most part anyways.  I'm not dissing non-Christian religion, I'm just pointing out the obvious, that the largest gains to be made are by specifically mobilizing Christians and we need a religious left message specifically tailored to a Christian message.

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both
by Anthony de Jesus on Wed May 04, 2005 at 10:33:25 PM EST

Needed - A morals agenda (none / 0)

Talk to people here and one of the first subjects that comes up is the general decline in people's morality.  When they say this - they do NOT mean abortion or gays or anything like that.  This is the disconnect between the political analysis I read and the real issue.  

The moral crisis that the people are concerned about is more about how parents are raising their children, and about the behavior of children in public schools.  The signs of these issues are all around. Talk to a public teacher about discipline problems in their class.  See children talk back to their parents in ways that would have been unimaginable 20 years ago.

I have seldom heard a Democrat ever talk to this issue.  They fear the morals issue because they only see it in political terms (abortion, gay rights).  But as I said earlier, this isn't about abortion.  What people are hungering for is an explanation for the cultural decline they see all around them.    

When you understand the morals issue properly, you can begin to see how a Democrat can successfully address this issue.  

The problem is that we have abandoned the field.  Since the GOP is the only party to talk about the country's morals at all, they win thousands of votes by default.  

by fladem on Wed May 04, 2005 at 10:36:41 PM EST

Re: Needed - A morals agenda (none / 0)

"They fear the morals issue because they only see it in political terms (abortion, gay rights).  But as I said earlier, this isn't about abortion.  What people are hungering for is an explanation for the cultural decline they see all around them.    

When you understand the morals issue properly, you can begin to see how a Democrat can successfully address this issue."

That's a very good point that deserves a lot more attention.  I believe there is a cultural decline in our society.  The right wing has gotten a lot of mileage by pinning the blame on specific wedge issues - abortion, gays, no prayer in schools.  They give a simplistic answer based on a few single issues and people are buying it.

It's a lot more complex than that, and I believe cultural decline ultimately goes back to economic policies.  Economic regulation, a social safety net, unions in the workplace, strong minimum wage laws, ensuring health care is available for all, an equal playing field in the job market, and ensuring that everybody has a chance to participate in civic involvement; these are things which promote an overall stability in society.  Deregulate business, deregulate the media, let wages decline relative to inflation, bust the unions, etc., and you wind up with the lowest common denominator taking hold in popular culture.  Why do people turn to gangs, drugs, antisocial behavior?  I sumbit that it has nothing to do with the right-wing bugaboos like abortio