Wealth In America - Some Basic Facts

Bobcat's diary, Bill Maher and the Judas Cow, and Chris's diary Defining Class, got me thinking about wealth and class in America. So I did some research. First, let's start with the routine income quintile charts from the Census Bureau:

2003 Mean Family Income by quintile:

Lowest         Second       Third         Fourth        Highest

$9,996        $25,678     $43,588     $68,994     $147,078

Here is a median income chart from the Urban Institute:

The high income limit for each quintile in 2003:

First                    Second                Third                Fourth  

$17,594             $34,000               $54,543          $86,867

The top quintile bracket would start at $86,868. There was no high income level for the top 20% quintile, but the median income is $147,078. The mean, or average income, would be meaningless, because the Forbes 400 would skew it to a meaningless number.

The top 5% income bracket starts at $154,120 and has a mean income of $253,239. At this point, Bobcat's diary about the Judas Cow begs the question, even though they won't get interviewed by Robin Leach: "Aren't the wealthiest 5% of Americans rich by definition?"

No examination of wealth in America is complete without a  look at the Forbes 400 for 2003 and a short article, as well as the Forbes 400 for 2004, and a short article.

The billionaire class in America seems to be thriving. In 2003, the wealthiest non-billionaire to make the list, at number 263, was Tampa Forida shopping center magnate John Edward Debartolo Jr, with a worth of 990 million. In last place in 2003 was Los Angeles television magnate Tom Werner, with a paltry 600 million.          

In 2004, the wealthiest non-billionaire to make the list, at number 314 was investment tycoon Samuel Wyly with $990 million. In last place in 2004 was South Dakota Gateway tycoon Norman W Waitt Jr  with $750 million.  The total financial worth of the Forbes 400 broke a cumulative total of $1 trillion for the first time.

The free market utopians insist that tax cuts for billionaires stimulate the economy because they invest and create jobs. The unspoken parenthetical is that in our global economy they are more likely to invest and create jobs overseas than in America. What ever happened to the trickle down effect free market utopians promised us in the 80's?

The total number of millionaires is not clear. According to the National Center for Policy Analysis, America had 4.8 million millionaires in 1996. From the same source:

Households in the $5 million category number about 328,000; with 38,000 enjoying at least $10 million worth of comfort.

Source: Paul Davidson, "So, How Much Money Does It Takes to be Rich?" USA Today, June 20, 1997.

According to a CNN story:

The ranks of millionaire households jumped 14 percent to 3.8 million, up from 3.3 million in 2002 and 3.7 million in 2001, according to NFO WorldGroup, a market research and consulting firm, which conducts an annual survey of affluent households.

NFO defines a "millionaire" household as one having $1 million or more in investable assets, which doesn't include primary residences or 401(k)s, among other things.

The 3.8 million was the highest in the 20 years that NFO has been conducting its surveys.

The increase in households with $1 million or more in investable assets is due largely to increased stability in the stock market and to well-diversified portfolios, said Jeanette Luhr, NFO Financial Services Director and program manager for the study.


There are different ways to calculate wealth. NFO's study was largely limited to liquid assets:
Since NFO's study is intended for its clients who wish to attract wealth-holders' assets, the "investable assets" measured by the study do not include those assets that an owner is unlikely to move, such as a vacation home, a 401(k) or 403(b), stock options, investment real estate, annuities, UGMA accounts or closely held business partnerships.

If those are included and household net worth is measured -- equal to assets minus liabilities -- then the number of millionaire households jumps to 7.9 million, up from 7.4 million in 2002.

 But that's still far below the all-time high of 9.8 million households reached in 2001.

 Also on the upswing this year were the number of affluent households with a net worth of $500,000 or more, excluding primary residences. They jumped to 10.5 million households from 9.1 million in 2002, NFO found.

I don't see any reason to exclude non-liquid assets, so we can conclude that there are roughly 8 million millionaires in America and 10.5 half-millionaires. It should also be pointed out that the top 5% did very well during the 80's and 90's. The middle quintile did a little bit better than break even, and the bottom forty percent lost ground.

In his book Perfectly Legal, David Cay Johnston has this breakdown of the increased wealth of the top 10% between 1970 and 2000:

The average income of the 90-95 percentile increased from $80,148 to $103,860.

The average income of the 95-99 percentile increased from $115,472 to $178,067.

The average income of  the 99.0-99.5 percentile increased from $202,792 to $3894,192.

The average income of the top .01 percentile increased from $317,582 to $777,450.

How unequal are we, anyway? Income and wealthy are two entirely different, but related, concepts.

If you scroll down to chart 3, it is crystal clear that wealth is even more concentrated than income. David Cay Johnston has documented the fact that even blatant tax avoidance schemes are Perfectly Legal in the United States. One interesting tax fact in Johnston's book that you won't hear from the Bush administration or Rush Limbaugh:

For 2001 the government found that all taxes at all levels of government consumed 19 percent of the incomes of the best-off fifth of Americans, those individuals and families whose average income was $116,666 that year. Down at the bottom the poorest fifth, whose average income was $7,946, paid 18 percent.

The income gap is widening. Rush Limbaugh and the free market utopians have turned the wealthiest 5% into a new oppressed minority because they pay such a high portion of the total federal income tax burden. The regressive taxes they conveniently ignore, among others, are the sales tax, property tax, and the ever popular gasoline tax.

Even before Bush's tax cuts kicked in, the overall tax system was already flat. Extending Bush's tax cuts will put a greater overall burden on middle class and low income taxpayers, than the burden on the wealthy elite in the top 10% and corporations.

Just how good are the tax avoidance schemes cooked up by legal and financial tax specialists?

Aiken, Gump, Straus, Hauer & Feld, one of the most influentiallaw firms in Washington, was paid a $1 million fee for an opinion letter that said one of three tax shelters it advised on would work.

What is an opinion letter? When I read this I wondered to how many different customers have Aiken & Gump sold their $1 million opinion letter? How many tens of millions of dollars are people avoiding paying in taxes to justify that kind of fee?

[An opinion letter] blesses the tax shelter as a perfectly legal way to reduce taxes. Written by tax lawyers using the embossed stationery of their firms, the letters typically cost $50,000, $75,000 or more, and rquire a signed promise to keep the contents secret, like the treasure map, lest the Internal Revuenue Service discover where untaxed fortunes lie. Opinion letters often run to 100 pages. The cover page offers comforting assurances, typically saying that even if the IRS finds out about the shelter, it is  "more likely than not," that taxes will never come due. The rest of these letters are economic and legal anysis weighted down with enough caveats to sink a Spanish galleon.

That is a brief summary of why Bush wants to extend his tax cuts for millionaires and billionaires, and why Limbaugh, Hannity and the Right Wing Noise Machine are complaining that the filty rich are the new oppressed minority in America.


Display:


Some basic facts on low income Americans (1.00 / 0)

It was an awkward fit in the body of my diary, but here is a very brief snapshot of low income Americans:

The NFO study comes after a government report last week found poverty is on the rise for the second straight year and median incomes in the United States fell for the third year in a row.

 The percentage of Americans living in poverty rose to 12.1 percent from 11.7 percent in 2001, the Census Bureau reported, the highest rate since 12.9 percent in 1998.

About 34.6 million people were in poverty in 2002, 1.7 million more than in 2001.

The official definition of poverty depends on family size. For example, the poverty threshold income level for a family of four with two children is $18,244 per year, while the poverty threshold for a family of three with one child is $14,480.

In 2000, the national poverty rate was 11.3 percent.

The Midwest was the only region that saw its poverty level increase, to 10.3 percent from 9.4 percent, between 2002 and 2001. The poverty rates in the Northeast at 10.9 percent, South with 13.8 percent, and the West at 12.4 percent did not change.

Of those people surveyed who reported being a single race, 24.1 percent of African-Americans were in poverty in 2002, up from 22.7 percent in 2001.

The statistic rates for whites (8 percent), Asians ( ranging from 10 percent to 10.3 percent depending on four race definitions) and Hispanics (21.8 percent) did not change.  


by Gary Boatwright on Sun May 01, 2005 at 02:37:35 PM EST

Where do I start? (1.00 / 0)

Let's start at the end:

Sad to say it, but crack down on the job-creators, the professionals, the high-performers - and create a poorer America.

That's one of Lawrence Ludlow's favorite lines. Let's give billionaires huge tax cuts so they can create jobs for poor Americans. Nice theory, but short on facts. If there's any truth to that argument, where are the jobs? There's all kinds of job creation in China and overseas.

Let's cut to the chase Carter. American billionaires don't give a tinker's damn about America or poor Americans. If they can get a better return on their dollar by creating jobs overseas, that's where they will invest their money.

You can even see the same phenomena domestically. I can't even count how many local or state governments have given tens and hundreds of millions of dollars in subsidies and tax breaks to large corporations in return for relocating to their locality. The corporations always get a better return on the investment than the local or state government. Sometimes the corporation will bail out as soon as the subsidy ends, leaving the community worse off.

In summary: Giving tax cuts to global corporations and billionaires is the absolutely worst way to create jobs. That's strike one.

Your analysis of European economies is incompetent and irrelevant. The United States has inherent market advantages that Europe, Japan and China are all equalizing very rapidly. I notice you didn't mention Japan or China. Good move Carter, because they are both kicking our economic butts. Strike two.

A study performed by Swedish economists show the huge gap between the relative wealth in America and Europe.

Nice study Carter. Did you invent it out of thin air? If not, please provide a link. I provided this link and chart number 4 discredits your argument. Try again Carter. Perhaps you could use some facts next time. That's strike three.

Gas costs more in Europe because they tax gasoline consumption heavily. We need to do more to emulate the Europeans by raising our CAFE standards instead of allowing a $100,000 SUV tax. Strike four Carter.

The average American has nearly $10,000 more to spend than the average European.

In the United States, 25% of households were considered 'Low Income', that is, earning less than $25,000 a year.

In Sweden - a whopping 40% of households earn less than $25,000 a year.

Citizens of Sweden and every other industrialized country have national health care plans that protect them from economic catastrophe as a result of an expensive health care crisis. Those low income Swedish and Europeans are far better off than their American counterparts and even wealthier American middle class people who are forced into bankruptcy because their insurance doesn't cover the cost of keeping a loved one alive and in good health. Strike five Carter.

-Students here almost seem a bit scared to leave the free university 'nest'.

That's just a bizarre statement. Who the hell cares if Finish students "seem a bit scared to leave" the nest?

You want a real global problem to chew on? Order The Flight of the Creative Class: Why America Is Losing the Global Competition for Talent, which is briefly reviewed at Seeing the Forest. Strike six Carter. Congratulations. Six strikes in a single at bat.

You might do better if you provided links to authoritative sources who knew what they were talking about. You obviously do not.

by Gary Boatwright on Sun May 01, 2005 at 05:56:28 PM EST

Re: Where do I start? (none / 0)

Notice that Carter uses the good old "the average American" has this much.  And of course everyone knows by now (well, not Carter and his ilk) that if you have, say, 90 people making less than Europeans and 9 people making as much as Europeans and 1 person making 411 times the average (the numbers for CEO versus average worker in 2001) you wind up being able to say things like "the average American" has more than those Europeans, etc.  It's an artifact of the very inequality that Gary is talking about.

Absolutely true, yet absolutely false  -- that is, factually true, but implying something which is false.  It's either foolish or dishonest or both -- which it is in Carter's case I do not know.

by QrazyQat on Sun May 01, 2005 at 08:38:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Where do I start? (1.00 / 0)

It's typical simplisitic wingnut analysis. He probably gets his economic analysis from Rush. I forgot to mention the recent advance of the Euro. The dollar has sunk to .77 Euros from 1.15 Euros a couple of years ago. The Canadian dollar is trading at 1.25, down from 1.44 Canadian dollars to the dollar.

Comparisons to other countries are invariably right wing spin that are both inaccurate and irrelevant.  I suspect our low income workers are better off than middle class Mexicans and perhaps even wealthy Sudanese. So what?

by Gary Boatwright on Sun May 01, 2005 at 09:12:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Where do I start? (none / 0)

The study Carter mentions is referenced  here:

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110005242

In case you don't want to bother with the link:

"The growing split between the U.S. and Europe has been much in the news, mostly on foreign policy. But less well understood is the gap in economic growth and standards of living. Now comes a European report that puts the American advantage in surprisingly stark relief.

The study, "The EU vs. USA," was done by a pair of economists--Fredrik Bergstrom and Robert Gidehag--for the Swedish think tank Timbro. It found that if Europe were part of the U.S., only tiny Luxembourg could rival the richest of the 50 American states in gross domestic product per capita. Most European countries would rank below the U.S. average, as the chart below shows.

The authors admit that man doesn't live by GDP alone, and that this measure misses output in the "black" economy, which is significant in Europe's high-tax states. GDP also overlooks "the value of leisure or a good environment" or the way prosperity is spread across a society.

But a rising tide still lifts all boats, and U.S. GDP per capita was a whopping 32% higher than the EU average in 2000, and the gap hasn't closed since. It is so wide that if the U.S. economy had frozen in place at 2000 levels while Europe grew, the Continent would still require years to catch up. Ireland, which has lower tax burdens and fewer regulations than the rest of the EU, would be the first but only by 2005. Switzerland, not a member of the EU, and Britain would get there by 2010. But Germany and Spain would need until 2015, while Italy, Sweden and Portugal would have to wait until 2022.

Higher GDP per capita allows the average American to spend about $9,700 more on consumption every year than the average European. So Yanks have by far more cars, TVs, computers and other modern goods. "Most Americans have a standard of living which the majority of Europeans will never come anywhere near," the Swedish study says.

But what about equality? Well, the percentage of Americans living below the poverty line has dropped to 12% from 22% since 1959. In 1999, 25% of American households were considered "low income," meaning they had an annual income of less than $25,000. If Sweden--the very model of a modern welfare state--were judged by the same standard, about 40% of its households would be considered low-income.

In other words poverty is relative, and in the U.S. a large 45.9% of the "poor" own their homes, 72.8% have a car and almost 77% have air conditioning, which remains a luxury in most of Western Europe. The average living space for poor American households is 1,200 square feet. In Europe, the average space for all households, not just the poor, is 1,000 square feet.

So what is Europe's problem? "The expansion of the public sector into overripe welfare states in large parts of Europe is and remains the best guess as to why our continent cannot measure up to our neighbor in the west," the authors write. In 1999, average EU tax revenues were more than 40% of GDP, and in some countries above 50%, compared with less than 30% for most of the U.S.

We don't report this with any nationalist glee. The world needs a prosperous, growing Europe, and its relative economic decline is one reason for growing EU-American tension. A poorer Europe lacks the wealth to invest in defense, a fact that in turn affects the willingness of Europeans to join America in confronting global security threats. But at least all of this is a warning to U.S. politicians who want this country to go down the same welfare-state road to decline."

by John Rogers on Mon May 02, 2005 at 10:19:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Where do I start? (none / 0)

A rising tide may lift all boats, but if some of those boats are 300-400 times more bouyant than others (the range of estimates of CEOs to average workers pay) than all those boats do not rise anywhere near as equally, and that means the less bouyant boats are getting swamped by the more bouyant.

Frankly, I find the reports that come out of rightwing think tanks like Timbro (or the Heritage Foundation, which has issued similar numbers) mighty suspicious; in this case, for instance, the idea that the average person in Alabama is better off than the average person in France or Germany seems, on its face, ludicrous. Again, note the use of averages, in this case not even income, but GDP, to determine how "well off" these average people are.

Another question comes to mind: Does the use of 1999 figures in the Timbro report for taxes versus GDP distort the data? In 1999 of course we were nearing the end of the Clinton years' economic success, before diving into the Bush recession and debt years. The OECD data they used shows that GDP had a boom year in 1999 and had had boom years for years before before going BOOM! in 2000 under Bush.

Note too that there is no value attached, apparently, for leisure time -- in fact it's apparently a negative, which makes sense if you're a corporation but not if you're, say, oh I don't know, a person. And there's nothing about the threshold of income where you can be confident that you won't be wiped out financially by illness -- in the USA that number is what? very high, certainly; in Europe that number is zero. Zero Euros/years and you won't be wiped out by health problems; in the USA how many dollars?

So remember, you too can become a rightwing think tank; the technique is:

1. always use an average, preferably of GDP.
2. assume that leisure is useless or worse.
3. ignore medical.
4. repeat #3.

by QrazyQat on Mon May 02, 2005 at 02:00:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Where do I start? (3.00 / 0)

QrazyQat:

You have to use some averages.

And besides, this does not deal with averages and can't be dismissed like that:

"In 1999, 25% of American households were considered "low income," meaning they had an annual income of less than $25,000. If Sweden--the very model of a modern welfare state--were judged by the same standard, about 40% of its households would be considered low-income."

And yes, the Swedes might have less spending money, crappier houses, higher taxes, more unemployment, more expensive food and housing...but they have free health care!

So do the Cubans.  

Me? I'd rather live here, thanks.

As for the leisure time BS. Yes, leisure is great, unless you are paying with it with a declining standard of living. In twenty years, most of Europe will be poorer in real terms than it is now.

It's no model for anything, except for how to make your country poorer.

by John Rogers on Tue May 03, 2005 at 07:45:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The last line shows why we have trouble (3.00 / 0)

We can not win on the economy.  People who thought the economy sucked voted Kerry en masse.  But not many people thought this-and they are right.  The poorest Americans are infitinely better off today than in FDR's time, so a New New Deal is completely out of the question.

All this anti-Walmart stuff does not help us-poor people love Walmart, trust me.  The only people who are moved by this are people who are either rich enough or live in big cities and therefore don't shop at Walmart anyways.  The anti-outsourcing, anti-imports, anti-cheap foreign labour Lou Dobbs crap is another nonstarter, particularly outside the rust belt (Ohio, Pennsylvania, Michigan, etc.).  The unemployment rate is 5.2%-way lower than Europe, and way lower than the bad times (late 70's, early 80's), when it was twice that.

I personally want socialized medicine and a strong safety net.  But I hate the coming theocracy more.  If I had a choice between these two, I would drop the safety net for a for an America with a non-religious government.  I don't know if we can win elections on this idea alone, though.

by Geotpf on Mon May 02, 2005 at 04:34:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Neonativism (none / 0)

Thats what they do here in Finland, and the millionaires generally leave.

This 'the millionaires will leave if you don't cave in to their demands' threat is an all-to-common right-wing trope.

Quite frankly, why should the lower 95% care?  The top 5% isn't creating jobs for them anyway at this point.

by Harvester on Sun May 01, 2005 at 09:15:56 PM EST

How does this fletch into the bankruptcy rate? (none / 0)

In the last elections, a fact that came
out in speeches was that 20% or 1 in 5 of
American Middle income households will
declare bankruptcy.

That was a whopping statistic.
If I recall, of that amount, nearly 40% of
those bankruptcies are caused by unexpected
medical care, e.g. hospital bills.

What income level should we draw the line
to define 'middle' - should it be the lower 2?

by turnerbroadcasting on Sun May 01, 2005 at 09:40:25 PM EST

Re: How does this fletch into the bankruptcy rate? (1.00 / 0)

That's one of the problems turnerbroadcasting. There aren't any real definitions.

My two cents is that the working poor are from the mean income of the second bracket, $25,678 on down for household or family income.

I would define the middle class is everything between $25,678 and $86,867.

The bottom part of the top 20% could be considered upper middle class, but once you get into even a low six figure income, you're talking pretty comfortable living. I'm sure a lot of these folks don't consider themselves "rich," but they aren't worrying about paying utility bills or fighting to keep the car running so they can get to work either.

by Gary Boatwright on Sun May 01, 2005 at 10:05:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How does this fletch into the bankruptcy rate? (none / 0)

This helps. On my figures I was drawing the line at about 28k.

You know, I have the same problem in my numbers.
(armchair statistician I am!)  I can't seem
to draw the line appropriately.

One trick I've been exploring that might help
with the problem is instead of looking at
the income (before taxes) (in a company valuation
I look at EBITDA)  - but instead dividing
the classes in america by their balance sheet.

That is, even the high income types get
classed into 'poverty' if their debt levels
are too high.

I think the problem is, to find the people
who are somehow turned upside down by
bad policy decisions and where the policy
decisions can be made to aright as many
of them as you can..

  1. out of work computer programmers
  2. laid off factory workers
  3. artisans and tradesman displaced by industrial
   migration
  1. offshoring (industrial, ie moving facgtories)
  2. offshoring (technical, services oriented)
  3. welfare witchery (ex. california migrants)
  4. walmart roadkill

These are my guesses as to where the economics
can be worked out.. obviously (7) is a little
bit touchy subject..
by turnerbroadcasting on Mon May 02, 2005 at 11:14:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How does this fletch into the bankruptcy rate? (none / 0)

"Middle income" should be from the median of the second bracket to the top of the fourth bracket.  That would take it from $34,000 to $87,000.  I wouold define "rich" as beginning at the median of the 4th bracket, or $150,000 by now.  

One problem is that while the width of the lower bands is pretty narrow, the top band goes from $87,000 to hundreds of billions.  The person making $87,000 has very little in common with the Wal-Mart heirs.  Even counting $150,000 as "rich" is laughable in many coastal metro areas.  that is really upper middle class.  The rich in terms of lifestyle really start with the millionaires.

But even here there is the problem of income and wealth, as you state.  The bottom half overwhelmingly have few to no assets, a major problem in getting up the ladder.  But people who are retired or who have enough wealth not to need to work can have incomes as low as $50-60,000 and still have assets of $1 million or more, even if one excludes the primary residence.  Are they rich?  To me it depends on how they live.

Culturally, one way to calculate it is on the basis of how much one SPENDS in a year exclusive of investments but including primary housing.  In other words, your actual living standard.  I doubt those statistics are kept.  But is the family who spends $250,000 a year with few assets richer than those who spend $60,000 but have over a million in assets?  Not in my book.

One reason for excluding the value of the primary residence is that it generally is a residence and not an investment.  It also takes out the issue of people who bought decades ago but whose houses are now worth far more than they could ever afford.  But then, living in a $750,000 house (in CA that is an average 3 bedroom) does have an imputed value, even if you bought it for $200,000.

by Mimikatz on Mon May 02, 2005 at 01:21:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: American Wealth vs European Wealth (none / 0)

Isn't that Germany number skewed WAY downward by the former East Germany?  I was under the impression that reunification was very hard on East Germany, which was suddenly exposed to the intense competition that was present in the west, and never really picked up.
"You say the world has lost it's love I say embrace what it's made of" -Dar Williams
by Valatan on Sun May 01, 2005 at 10:21:34 PM EST

Re: American Wealth vs European Wealth (1.00 / 0)

Very good point Valatan. You are absolutely right. I had forgotten about that. Germany's situation is comparable to the United States being compelled to absorb Mexico at a moment's notice.
by Gary Boatwright on Sun May 01, 2005 at 10:49:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

How can one live on ten grand a year? (none / 0)

I make three times as much, and while my income always is slightly greater than my expenses, I can't do things like buy a new car, let alone buy a house.  And I live alone.
by Geotpf on Sun May 01, 2005 at 11:50:00 PM EST

Re: How can one live on ten grand a year? (none / 0)

One shops at the Salvation Army, receives food from local Hunger Drives, collects food stamps and welfare, and doesn't pay taxes.

Even then, one has to struggle to make ends meet.

by craverguy on Mon May 02, 2005 at 12:03:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

A good book on this topic. (none / 0)

I'll Be Short: Essentials for a Decent Working Society by Robert B. Reich

Also good, though a bit dated:

Small Is Beautiful : Economics as if People Mattered by E.F. Schumacher

by craverguy on Mon May 02, 2005 at 12:06:45 AM EST

Re: American Wealth vs European Wealth (none / 0)

Also don't forget that Europeans work fewer hours per year than do Americans:

         Per Capita GDP      Work Hours per Year
                                        per worker
US         $ 37,600                  1,952
Japan       28,000                  1,954
Germany  26,600                  1,525
France      25,700                  1,539
Britain      25,300                  1,888

That 400 extra hours of leisure time per year that French and German workers get is not included in GDP statistics.

by tgeraghty on Mon May 02, 2005 at 02:37:16 AM EST

Re: Less work = good thing???? (none / 0)

And 400 fewer hours per worker is a good thing? Having lots of freetime to sit on your ass and drink wine really isn't so great when you have less money to spend. The popularity of early retirement programs alone shows that many people don't agree with your "money is paramount" view. If you have enough money -- that is, if your worldview allows you to give up the idea that you can never have enough -- you'll find that time is a far more precious commodity, as many people already know.
by QrazyQat on Mon May 02, 2005 at 03:26:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Less work = good thing???? (none / 0)

And 400 fewer hours per worker is a good thing?
Having lots of freetime to sit on your ass and drink wine really isn't so great when you have less money to spend.

I suppose it depends on your preferences for work vs, say, spending time with your family. I don't assume that everyone has my preferences, but there's plenty of evidence that Americans feel pressed for time and might like more time away from the grind.

The French 35 hour work week and mandated holidays are keeping their unemployment rates sky high.

You don't know what you're talking about here. Unemployment in France actually dropped right after the 35-hour week was adopted.

Germany, admittedly absorbed East Germany 14 years ago, but this does not explain today's unemployment rate of 12.0%

Again, you don't know what you're talking about. Unemployment in the West is below 8%; in the East it is near 20%.

Comes down to Americans are more productive, have more money, and less freetime. Europeans have more freetime, but are less productive and have less money.

Again you are misinformed on this issue. In fact, many European economies have productivity levels and growth rates that match or exceed those in the U.S:

             Labor
           Productivity            GDP
             Growth,            per Worker
           1987-2005          1995-96

France        1.6%               102
Germany     1.6                 107
Italy           1.5                    90
Sweden      2.5
Norway       2.3
Finland       3.0
Denmark    2.0
UK            1.5                     84
US            1.9                   100
Japan       2.0                     68

Source: OECD, BLS, Conference Board

by tgeraghty on Mon May 02, 2005 at 06:13:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Less work = good thing???? (none / 0)

that has to be put in context: they have less people working. Europe would trade its employemnt stats for ours anyday.
by John Rogers on Tue May 03, 2005 at 07:48:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Less work = good thing???? (none / 0)

Maybe France or eastern Germany or southern Italy would. I doubt Norway (4.1% unemployment) or Sweden (5.4%) or Denmark (5.7%) or the Netherlands (5.2%) would.

Remember, the US labor market is performing far worse than our 5.4% unemployment rate would indicate. Job growth is barely enough to keep up with growth in the labor force, the employment-to-population ratio is at postwar lows, many people have left the labor force and thus are not counted as unemployed, wage growth is nil and has been for much of the last 25-30 years.

So in terms of labor market performance the US does not have a whole lot to crow about.

 

by tgeraghty on Tue May 03, 2005 at 07:02:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Less work = good thing???? (3.00 / 0)

Dude, That's like saying maybe things aren't so hot in California, Florida, New York and Pennsylvania.

But the job market is hot as hell in Buttfuck, Montana!

France, Germany and Italy is where most of Europe lives.

by John Rogers on Wed May 04, 2005 at 10:58:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Less work = good thing???? (none / 0)

And in northern Italy the unemployment rate is about 5%-6%. In western Germany its 7%-8%; not much worse than in the U.S. if you properly evaluate the state of the labor market here.

But I guess there's just no getting across to you ideologues . . .

by tgeraghty on Wed May 04, 2005 at 03:20:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Less work = good thing???? (1.00 / 0)

Oh, yeah, and Scandinavia would be the 8th largest economy in the world if it were a single country.

But you're the expert on buttfuck.

by tgeraghty on Wed May 04, 2005 at 06:38:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

we get letters... (none / 0)

You have to use some averages.

In their averaging they are using two methods that are suspect -- one is that what they're using is the mean, when they should be using the mode. But the mode would make the numbers for the USA lower, and that wouldn't do. And the other is that in determining how much money people have they should use something like income rather than GDP, but again -- lower (and more accurate); not good for their point.

Europe would trade its employemnt stats for ours anyday.

If they had to take the rest of our baggage, like higher health care spending coupled with fewer benefits? Why do we put up with a health care system where we don't get our money's worth? Of course you could argue that all these things are completely unconnected, but that can only be done by being completely unconnected yourself -- from reality.

You have an economic CHOICE.

Yes, you do have an economic choice -- in Europe. You can use your extra time for leisure or for doing something to make more money (in fact the Timbro report makes that point, altho they couch it as a negative (!). In the USA it isn't a choice.

And in my "How to think like a rightwing think tank" example, it seems I missed a couple points:

5. use strawmen like pretending European workers are the equivalent of "unemployed bums".

6. in a discussion of the comparison of the USA and Europe, bring in Cuba as if they were being held up as an example.

by QrazyQat on Tue May 03, 2005 at 01:18:30 PM EST

Re: we get letters... (3.00 / 0)

In holding up Europe as some kind of gold standard, you are tying the future of American liberalism to a sinking ship.

Europe is doomed.

Its failed welfare states, toxic socialism and fatal demographics ensure this.

Right now, it is apparent to most people in the US who are paying attention.

In a decade, it will be obvious to everyone.

by John Rogers on Tue May 03, 2005 at 01:57:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: we get letters... (1.00 / 0)

Yeah, like it was "obvious" to all those people who a couple years back said Europe was doomed, done for, over... because the dollar was at 1.16 Euros. Are you guys ever tired of being wrong all the time?
by QrazyQat on Tue May 03, 2005 at 05:22:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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