Diversity and the Two Lefty Blogospheres

While I was over at Political Animal re-reading the conversation between Amy Sullivan, Katha Pollitt and Garance Franke-Ruta (sorry about the earlier typo Garance, I forgot to update my rough draft when I posted)) on women and political writing, I came across Kevin Drum's post from three weeks ago on the Blog Pulse research paper on blogosphere linking patterns. In the comments section, angry moderate made an observation that caught my attention:
If you remove Atrios, the left blogosphere is neatly divided into two mutually-linking spheres: the moderate/intellectual(academicky) types - Drum, DeLong, Yglesias, TPM, Tapped, Crocoked Timber - and the left activist types - Kos, MyDD, Digby, Left Coaster, Pandagon (only this one surprised me a bit). Even at the modest 5-link level, none of these blogs link to anyone on other side. They'd be completely unlinked communities if not for Atrios who has links to TPM and Tapped, but also Kos and Digby. I suppose no surprise since Atrios is an academic leftist activist type.
I checked the paper and found that while generally accurate, this statement is not entirely true, since Dailykos did in fact have link exchanges greater than five with both Political Animal and Mathew Yglesias. Still, it is more or less true. The Blog Pulse research paper does in fact identify two nearly separate lefty blogopsheres during the period it studies (pre-election), with Eschaton serving as the point at which the two connect.

The commenter describes one reason for this divide: a split between "academia" and "activism." This seems fair enough, for the pre-election time period that the paper studied. TPM had yet to engage in its strong Social Security activism, which I know for a fact has led to a 5+ link exchange with a couple of blogs on the "other side" of the lefty blogosphere. Another reason should be obvious to many others: the second group seems to be part of an expanding dailykos universe, where smaller blogs operated by alumni or associates of kos become part of an expanded dailykos-centric blogosphere.

More interestingly, and related to the previous points, something else is also taking place here: a divide based upon race. From what I can tell, and I admit it is not always easy to tell in cyberspace, almost every single major non-white lefty blogger, such as kos, Oliver Willis, Jesse Taylor, Armando, Meteor Blades and Steve Gillard (there may be others), falls into the "activist / dailykos" group. Of course, several Whitey McWhitersons such as myself fall into that group as well, but by comparison this is a far more diverse group than the "academic" bloggers.

The "activist" lefty blogosphere includes a pretty ethnically diverse group of (yes, almost entirely male) bloggers. I am not going to pretend to know all of the reasons for certain why this is the case, but I am pretty darn certain that the main reason it is the case is that kos himself has consistently promoted, supported, and linked to non-white bloggers. Dailykos is the center of the "activist" lefty blogosphere after all, both in terms of traffic and links, and no one has more power over the bloggers that will be read and heard in that blogosphere than kos. Now, kos claims that he does not take factors such as sex, race or creed into account when choosing front-page writers, and I see no reason to doubt him on this point. However, in the end whether he has intentionally supported writers of color or not really does not matter. Because kos has supported many writers of color, many writers of color have almost always been prominently featured in within the activist, lefty blogosphere. The diversity is that side of the lefty blogosphere is obvious, and it arose almost entirely from decision kos made.

At long last, this brings me back to the discussion on women and political writing that has been taking place over at Washington Monthly. The ethnic diversity to be found within the male bloggers of the activist, lefty political blogosphere should serve as an obvious lesson to all bloggers that it is indeed our actions that determine the diversity of our blogosphere, no matter what type of diversity we are discussing (gender, income, race, creed, ideology, etc). Quite frankly, we have no business blaming any outside forces, including socialization, industry bias, or lack of a "talent pool" for the comparative shortage of female voices in the political blogosphere. Clearly, as the case of the kos-centered blogs show, we can achieve diversity in our blogrolls, link exchanges and writers if we just support a diverse range of voices. As Katha Pollitt wrote in one of her posts during the conversation:

Amy, I think you are right that at present the female pool of opinion writers is smaller than the male pool for all the reasons you suggest. But I would like to hear your thoughts on why it is that the women who are in the pool -- like the women I've mentioned -- are not being employed by the very people who claim to be looking for women! A top place like the New York Times or the Washington Post or the big newsweeklies can hire anyone it wants. The editors don't hire by waiting for the phone to ring, and I'm sure the names I've mentioned -- and dozens of others -- are familiar to them. Just because blatant and subtle sex discrimination is an old and longstanding issue, about which perhaps little that is original can be said and which puts men on the defensive, doesn't mean it's not a big part of the answer.(...)

The smaller talent pool is not an insuperable problem. With women, we are hardly talking tiny, minuscule, infinitesimal. Enough smart women with opinions exist so that magazines could be filling their pages with women.

So let's talk about what editors and others can do to bring this happy state about!

Indeed. That is precisely, if not the only, discussion we need to be having on this subject. The blame for the lack of certain kinds of diversity in the political blogosphere, including gender diversity, lies nowhere except on the shoulders of bloggers such as myself. As much as we may claim otherwise, we already are taking factors such as gender into account in our promotion of other blogs and bloggers, and the lack of gender equality in the political blogosphere is the result. Until we admit that and take steps to correct it, the situation will never improve.



Display:


Networks (none / 0)

I don't recall where I saw this, but apparently this is a common pattern with networks.  There are clumps that are more or less separate, only linked by one or two nodes in the network.  So the complaint here doesn't really reflect anything but a natural pattern of networks.  
by Alan S on Sun Mar 27, 2005 at 02:09:27 PM EST

Affirmative Action for political blogs (3.00 / 2)

Remember the way Howard Dean talked about affirmative action?  This was a part of his regular stump speech for much of the campaign:
America is the most diverse country on the face of the Earth.  And American public schools are far from perfect.  We can do better.  But the truth is American public schools are where people learn about each other.  The education that goes on in schools is not just about what goes on in the classroom.  It's about how we get along with each other, what we know about each other.   You know diversity's not something that comes naturally to people.

When I was governor, my chief of staff was a woman.  And chiefs of staff do the hiring, not governors.  So about two or three years into my governorship, I noticed that my office was a matriarchy.  [laughter].  It's true.  [applause].  You needn't applaud quite so loudly.  And so one day the chief of staff came in and said, well governor, one of the policy analysts left; I'll be hiring somebody else; just wanted to let you know.  And I said, well now, you know it's none of my business, I don't do the hiring around here, but I've noticed there's kind of a gender imbalance in the office.  I wondered if we could find a man.  [laughter].  And she looked at me, she wasn't kidding around, and she said, governor, you're absolutely right.  There is a gender imbalance in the office, and we really should hire a man, but it's really hard to find a qualified man.  [laughter, applause].

Now there's a reason I tell this story.  We all tend to hire people like ourselves.  It ain't just 50 year old WASPs like me that do it; everybody does it, right?  We're all more comfortable with the people we grew up with; the people we have things in common with, people we're comfortable with.  Diversity is not something that comes normally to human beings.  That's why you need affirmative action.


What we're talking about here is affirmative action, in the way we link blogs.  We're more likely to link to the blogs we know - the people we know, the people who write like us, the people who participated on the same blogs we participate in.  The result is a kind of cliquishness, where different social groups form different internally networked clumps.  The DailyKos "clique" is ethnically diverse, and mostly male.

What we should be doing, is making an active effort to break down the clique barriers.  Seek out other clumps, participate in their blogs, post links to our blogs in theirs, and through that, bring them over to participate in ours.

Although the lefty political blog cliques are mostly male, blogs as a whole are mostly female.  There are probably more than twice as many female bloggers on the net as there are male.  We can do this.

by cos on Sun Mar 27, 2005 at 06:39:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Affirmative Action for political blogs (none / 0)


Remember the way Howard Dean talked about affirmative action?
yea, exactly, only with bloggers, it's mindset and like-minded self-grouping, rather than demographics or gender (though the obvious lapping over exists).
by Jerome Armstrong on Sun Mar 27, 2005 at 10:48:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

keep venturing outside our clumps (none / 0)

One of the biggest divides between the new progressive activist netroots & grassroots, and the old power structure in the Democratic party, both nationally and in most states I am familiar with, is exactly that: cliquishness.  People who have been working together for decades and know each other, have forgotten how to be open to new involvement.  Many of them actually feel threatened, and resist, when new groups try to get involved.  But even those who genuinely want new activists, just aren't in the habit of making it happen, and don't really know how.

All these new progressive groups that have formed in the past few years, including DfA and PDA, and the community blogs like DailyKos, are full of new people with new ideas.  Because we're new institutions.  But if we don't remain vigilant, over time, we too will become exclusionary cliques.  Not because we want to, but because, as Dean said, diversity takes work.  And if you don't pay attention to it, it is not likely to happen.

We need to keep thinking about ways to venture outside our "clumps", participate in each others' institutions, find new people, welcome them, and encourage them to be leaders.  Which, in blog-land, includes reading and commenting on their blogs, inviting them to post on ours, and linking to their writing.

by cos on Sun Mar 27, 2005 at 07:06:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: keep venturing outside our clumps (none / 0)

....But if we don't remain vigilant, over time, we too will become exclusionary cliques....

That's already happened and is still happening - to some extent. "Post counts" and the sometimes unseemly quest for mojo contribute to the culture of cliques.

543,895 votes
by Michael Bersin on Sun Mar 27, 2005 at 08:46:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: keep venturing outside our clumps (none / 0)

I've been finding new blogs as a result of all these discussions. I originally came to Dkos and Atrios primarily from their Live Journal feeds.

So checking out other sites randomly via the blogrolls and webrings has been very interesting.

Before you win, you have to fight. Come fight along with us at TexasKaos.
by boadicea on Sun Mar 27, 2005 at 11:01:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: keep venturing outside our clumps (none / 0)

I originally came to Dkos and Atrios primarily from their Live Journal feeds.

... and I just posted about this discussion on MyDD, on the howard_dean community on LiveJournal.

by cos on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 10:55:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

"identity politics" gets annoying (3.00 / 1)

Instead of wringing your hands about the lack of links to female bloggers, you could actually look for female bloggers and link to them.

BTW, my blog does link generously to female bloggers.

Rrrinnggg... Time to change the government.
by Carl Nyberg on Sun Mar 27, 2005 at 03:15:24 PM EST

Re: "identity politics" gets annoying (none / 0)

She's young, academic, AND an activist...bookmark her, Danno!

http://majikthise.typepad.com/

by JohnS on Sun Mar 27, 2005 at 03:41:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "identity politics" gets annoying (none / 0)

And if she was from Illinois she'd already be on my blogroll.
Rrrinnggg... Time to change the government.
by Carl Nyberg on Sun Mar 27, 2005 at 05:06:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

next big blog breakthrough (none / 0)

Political blogging isn't the only show in town.

Figuring out how to get memes and links passed from the political blogs to the sports blogs, sex blogs and other blog communities will be the next big breakthrough.

Rrrinnggg... Time to change the government.
by Carl Nyberg on Sun Mar 27, 2005 at 03:17:34 PM EST

Well... (none / 0)

I have to disagree about the support of diverity in the blogs.

It seemed that the only "diverse" candidate that was promoted in the blogoshere was Obama but he was already a sure thing...then there was Salazar who is basically a wingnut in Dem drag so I am not counting him as being "diverse".

Then there was that horrible front pager full of racist innuendo about Donna Brazille.

As for women... it is hard to gather support from women when you call supporters of pro-choice  "ideological purists"...

That being said it still is a hell of a lot better that the msm but far from being perfect or inclusive.

Besides telling us how to live, think, marry, pray, vote, invest, educate our children and, die, the GOP has done a fine job of getting gov't out of our lives.
by Parker on Sun Mar 27, 2005 at 03:19:02 PM EST

Oh and...what's up with this sports thing (none / 0)

in retaliation I am thinking of posting knitting patterns...
Besides telling us how to live, think, marry, pray, vote, invest, educate our children and, die, the GOP has done a fine job of getting gov't out of our lives.
by Parker on Sun Mar 27, 2005 at 03:31:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh and...what's up with this sports thing (none / 0)

I'm partial to quilting.
543,895 votes
by Michael Bersin on Sun Mar 27, 2005 at 08:48:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

asdf (none / 0)

Atrios:  The Grand (white male) Unifier....  it used to be, being from Inglewood CA, and with the name, that it was assumed that I was black. I don't think it mattered at all; neither do I think it mattered when it was learned that Kos was Latino, or that Atrios was Duncan. When nobody knew (we were all anonymous in 2002), it didn't matter, so why should it now? It's not really an issue of gender or demographic, as much as it is an issue of shared-interests.

Also, I think the strength of the linkage arguement is overplayed. BlogPulse did their review in in Sept=Nov, 2004, during the run-up to the election, so that the election-minded blogs were linking together more often is no great surprise. Outside the hyper-election period, I think it's much less of a division; but I'd agree, Drum, DeLong, Yglesias, TPM, Tapped, Crooked Timber, I just read every so often (though TPM with the SS coverage has been a must), and it's probably vice versa as well. This is a zero-sum activity, and as a blogger, I spend more time thinking and wandering technorati and google, than I do with a set pattern of blogs I read toward producing reaction. Plus, regarding BlogPulse, their assumption there is that all blogs are the same, while we know that the Scoop platform here, and even bigger, on Daily Kos, radically changes the linkage layout; given what the diaries do to promulgate  connection and opinion within the blogospehre.

by Jerome Armstrong on Sun Mar 27, 2005 at 03:54:42 PM EST

Re: asdf (none / 0)

I think the strength of the linkage arguement is overplayed.

I think participation is more important.  It's harder to measure.  Real connection between blogs flows from having people from one blog participate in another.  It's hard to measure - many of the "academic" blogs, like juancole and TPM, don't have comment threads, so they don't foster community in the same way.

by cos on Sun Mar 27, 2005 at 06:50:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: asdf (none / 0)

I would very much like to see a post election study, something tracking links from January through March. Something tracking more than just twenty from each side.
by Chris Bowers on Sun Mar 27, 2005 at 11:59:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

A clean, well lit place (none / 0)

I was involved with an out of the way site in the lead up to the election and in its aftermath. Much of the time I was posting reactions and links pertaining to "what was going on." With the exception of TPM (on Social Security) and Juan Cole I spent very little effort and time going over the content of the "academic" sites.

Information, expertise and analysis of superior quality were (and still are) coming out of sites like Kos, MyDD, Digby, Left Coaster, Pandagon - as an academic I was (and am) more interested in what comes out of these sites then the usual tendentious "conventional wisdom" (an oxymoron if there ever was one) coming from the "approved" sites.

I believe it's a mistake to label this dichotomy as "activist" and "academic". I prefer "activist" and "hand wringers".  

543,895 votes
by Michael Bersin on Sun Mar 27, 2005 at 04:16:40 PM EST

One female blogger's reflections (3.00 / 3)

Some anecdotal reflections from one female blogger:

  • I read both sets of "left" blogs, as well as some voices of moderation on the center-right
  • My personal blog is more focused on social software and activist technology than electoral politics.
  • The political blogging that I do is more focused on "cyberliberties" issues -- see http://savemuniwireless.org -- that's the effort to save city-supported networking in Texas from the predatory, anti-competitive practices of the incumbent telcos
  • My blogs are part of blog networks that are cross-linked by region (Texas) and issue, rather than the tier of "a-list" mainstream political bloggers.
  • I think the focus on the Josh Marshall/Andrew Sullivan/Kos/MyDD "top tier" political bloggers is part of an unjustified focus on the "a-list" which ignores other networks of blogs with lower traffic and higher focus.  
  • My work on cyberliberties issues such as municipal wireless and electronic voting is aimed more at building a "different majority" for good policy, rather than sticking to traditional party lines.
  • This "different majority" approach is very different from the "split-the-difference", "corporate toady" approach of the so-called moderate democrats who sell out sick people to credit card companies. It involves creating a strong vision and building non-traditional alliances between, for example, the rural small towns, urban low-income neigborhoods, and high-tech districts that support municipal networking.

So what does this all add up to?

I read the mainstream blogs, but choose to post on the topics where I feel I have something distinctive to say. For example, there seem to be enough people saying that running the country trillions of dollars into debt is a bad way to change social security, and banning the teaching of evolution is a really bad direction for the country.

I find the vitriol on the populist sites on both sides ("rethugs", "moonbats") hard to take and rather nauseating. On the right, I usually can't take it at all ("culture of death", "traitors"). On the left, I have limited patience for it, and feel zero motivation to contribute to the spitball contests in Kos comments, though I appreciate some of the original reporting and analysis in the posts.

by alevin on Sun Mar 27, 2005 at 04:33:26 PM EST

Interesting issue (none / 0)

In my view on kos, there are many female voices that get heard often. Kos and my DD and tactuis on the right being the few Blogs that have made the jump to diary formats. The more this happens and makes the tech. knowledge less of an issue you will see or hear many more female voices. In the mainstream media the questions are different and institutional. In academia the net has just started to be used and the pull of time vs. blogging and research etc. is one of the issues that is not looked at often. It also depends on what kind of things you are looking at.

In foreign policy the left center more hawkish view in academia has not embraced the blogs like they could. They have not seen the power in the collective process. It is hard to stay on topic unless you have the time staff or money to engage in it over a long time.

Interesting thing I ran across comes to mind on this fact. Leon Fuerth has been running a graduate school project that is interesting on forward engagement. It is not just looking at military problems but world problems and even changes in what it means to be human.

If for know other reasons than the finacial these kind of projects have not been made public.

Also academic writers also feel that the should error on the side of moderation in some cases to keep controversy at bay.

by Davinci on Sun Mar 27, 2005 at 04:46:15 PM EST

Is OCD higher in the white male population ;-) (none / 0)

What the statistics on obsessive-compulsive disorder in the population as a whole? Is it flat across all groups in the population or is is more frequent in white males?

I've always been suspicious there a link between OCD and blogging. Links between behaviors like being likely to type for 18 hours a day and OCD seems a reasonable possibilty.

;-D

by afs on Sun Mar 27, 2005 at 04:54:35 PM EST

moderate, not academic (3.00 / 2)

I think the blogs like TPM and Yglesias aren't particular academic. Maybe they went to ivies, but that doesn't mean the analysis is academic.

I think it just degree a political opinion.

When we talk about democratic politicians, we argue over how much to give up in order to support a candidate. We don't really find many truly progressive politicians.

Generally speaking the moderates would be fearful of a shift to the left just as much as a shift to the right in the democratic party. When they say 'DLC douche I'm supporting is the only electable choice', they really mean, 'he's my guy, and your guy won't win anyway, so stop whining'. I think most dKos and MyDD people would welcome a shift to the left.

by srolle on Sun Mar 27, 2005 at 05:01:44 PM EST

Chris, you know I still owe you an answer as (3.00 / 0)

to could be done to build a better blue network. Give me until the morning and I will post it.

As to the issue of race, ethnicity and gender : I cover all three bases. So you can imagine my level of frustration when [ a so-called progressive blogger who will remain unknown ] says he doesn't read women bloggers because they don't write about things that interest him. Or when [ another so-called progressive blogger who will remain unknown ] says he's too busy writing about the issues of the day to do anything else.

EXCUSE ME?

Isn't the Schiavo case about abortion? Isn't the so called "culture of life" about bio-power and fascism? Why wouldn't the cultural hypocrisy over "stay at home moms" be intrinsically related to elderly issues like health care benefits, social security and "right to die" issues? And would race and ethnicity somehow color all those conversations?

That's why I call them "so-called progressives" because even among the left you can find Neanderthals.

Lazyness and prejudice cannot be changed. But for sites like yours, DailyKos and others, there are straight-forward, web desing options that could be implemented to build a better blue network.

Then there is the real, simple shaking of hands through meetups that people can put together; etc.

Let me finish the dang thing and post it.

Let me just give y'all a heads up on the Brown Bloggers meetup that's coming up here in NYC on April 10th.


by liza on Sun Mar 27, 2005 at 05:04:14 PM EST

You're on my favorites list now (none / 0)

I add good blogs to my favorites list whenever I find them. I just found yours because of this post.

Very nice layout, by the way. I like your eye for graphics.

by afs on Sun Mar 27, 2005 at 05:22:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

political humor (none / 0)

I tend to use political humor and I cover it all but I will not use blog overkill.
The Kentucky Democrat
by kydem on Sun Mar 27, 2005 at 06:14:53 PM EST

boing...boing...boing...boing...swish...replay... (none / 0)

replay...replay...replay...replay...replay...replay...replay...
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enlarge...

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enlarge...

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enlarge...

by afs on Sun Mar 27, 2005 at 07:36:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

asdf (none / 0)

I should trollrate you for that.
The Kentucky Democrat
by kydem on Sun Mar 27, 2005 at 10:45:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

New bloggers (none / 0)

Crooksandliars
has started a "Crooksandliars" Mike's Blog Round Up, that has created a secondary blog page and is posting new, or unread bloggers. There are a lot of submissions and It seems to be working. Hopefully it will be read and help bring more voices into the blogoshere
by Coltrane on Sun Mar 27, 2005 at 07:42:35 PM EST

and btw (none / 0)

Just speaking on behalf of "our side" of the lefty blogosphere: ("Daily Kos,
MyDD, Digby, Left Coaster, Pandagon")

The ironic being, that there's a lot of diversity there.

by Jerome Armstrong on Sun Mar 27, 2005 at 10:56:53 PM EST

Re: and btw : A challenge (none / 0)

Off the top of your head :

  1. 10 women bloggers
  2. 10 "minority" bloggers

by liza on Sun Mar 27, 2005 at 11:12:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Off the top of my head (none / 0)

Me
Jesse Taylor
Steve Gilliard
Meteor Blades
Afronetizen
Colorado Luis
Oliver Willis
Armando
Wampum (MB)
Julian Sanchez
Peter Daou
Uppity Negro (RIP)
The Hamster (Eric Hananoki)
Margaret Cho

(and I didn't include any gay bloggers, which might or might not qualify for "minority" status.)

Body and Soul (Jeanne)
Annatopia
DC Media Girl
Jeralyn Merit
Majikthise (met her at the Tank during the RNC, so I'm not cribbing off the comment above)
Wonkette
Pacific Views (Natasha)
Wampum (MB)
Sisyphus Shrugged
Margaret Cho
Mad Kane
Chris Nolan

There's also a well-known blogger who everyone assumes is a man, who actually is a woman. But I'll respect her anonymity and not name her.

Oh, and with the vast majority of bloggers, I have no idea what color they are.

by kos on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 01:07:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Off the top of my head (none / 0)

OK.

Take Uppity-Negro out for obvious reasons. Add one more to the list.

As much as I love Margaret Cho and James Wolcott, I'd have a bit of a problem calling them bloggers. They came to the blogosphere with their audiences.
So, Margaret is a stand-up comedian that blogs --she did not gain notoriety by blogging (like you, for example). Neither did Wolcott.

So let's take Margaret out and add 2 more (1 on each list).

As to Wonkette : Wonkette is a property of Gawker Media. The brilliance of Nick Denton is that he creates blogs that have "personas" that, technically, are independent from the writers themselves. If Anne Marie Cox stopped writing Wonkette, it would not (technically) affect the blog. He's already done it with other of his properties. She is the most renowned but still, not indispensable. So let's be frank : Wonkette is a property, not a blogger.

Take Wonkette out and add another one.

AND A NEW CHALLENGE:
Can you organize these writers by locality? Do you know where they are?

by liza on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 09:59:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Huh? (none / 0)

Do the math.

I had 14 "minority" bloggers, and 12 women bloggers. Whether they meet your definition or not, I still have 10 of each.

As for geography, I CAN tell you where they are. But why does it matter? Who cares?

by kos on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 12:41:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Huh? (none / 0)

Who cares?

Attitude like yours lead to spectacles like this one described at Americablog:

CORRECTION: The National Press Club IS a big MSM whore
http://americablog.blogspot.com/2005/03/correction-national-press-club-is-big_28.html

Gannon, of course, is neither, and the same goes for Wonkette. He's a male prostitute who parroted GOP press releases, and she writes a humor blog about sex in politics that focuses mainly on ass-fucking jokes. Neither of them is a serious political journalist (and I don't believe Wonkette, whose site I love, even claims to be), and most certainly neither of them is your first choice for a panel about how serious MSM journalism differs from serious BLOG journalism.

Unless this is some Candid Camera setup by the National Press Club, I think it's just pathetic. I mean, off the top of my head : Chris Nolan, SusanG (and the Propagganon team), Jim Gilliam, Peter Daou, everybody from BOPNews.

Do you see a pattern here?

by liza on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 05:56:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Huh? (none / 0)

ok, I see that point.
by kos on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 07:36:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Off the top of my head (none / 0)

and I didn't include any gay bloggers, which might or might not qualify for "minority" status.

Gee, Kos, during the last election, we had a host of state amendments that wrote discrimination into their constitutions, with more attempting to do so at this moment (and FMA is back on the burner).

I think being queer certainly qualifies as a political minority in these times with the AmTaliban at the helm, just about ready to load us in the boxcars to ship us off for "ex-gay" therapy.

by pamindurham on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 02:26:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yeah, but (none / 0)

couldn't you say the same about self-identified liberals? The question is, does "minority" here refer to a racial distinction, or any group comprising less than 50% of the population? I'm assuming from the conversation that they're referring to racial "minorities" rather than gays, amputees or Mormons.
Yeah, I'm cynical.
by catastrophile on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 04:33:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Diversity... (3.00 / 1)

     Fellow readers:

     Allow me to introduce myself...

     Most people label me as "white", but I am native American enough to always check "other".

     I am also male.

     A black workmate once told me: "You are the most colorblind white man I have ever known".

     And he was accurate- I'm <funny> that way.

     I am also gender blind within reason. (I do not ignore interesting women in my proximity...)

     But on the net, I simply ignore ethnicity and gender- or more accurately- I am too oblivious to note such info.

     So I am surprised that in this day and age, when you can blog under any identity you chose, that in a medium where anyone can claim to be anything, there are still people stupid enough to care about ethnicity and gender.

     I can claim to be a high lady mucky-muck in a black Amazon tribe, and no one could possibly challenge it.

     I believe that only on the net has Martin Luther King achieved his dream where people are judged strictly on the content of their charactor- because the color of their skin (and gender) are impossile to verify- and therefore meaningless.

     I make no assumptions regarding ethnicity and gender, and I know enough to ignore such unverifiable dinstinctions.

     If I wanted, I could blog as a female one-eyed, one-horned, flying purple people eater, and I could post a picture of a female one-eyed, one-horned, flying purple people eater.

     Any moron who believed that does not deserve to live even in the most liberal of environments.

     I follow only the blogs that share my philosophy, and I don't give a flying frig in a rubber doughnut as to what ethnicity or gender the blogger claims.

     So IMHO, bloggers should adopt ethnicity and gender nuetral monikers, and simply be judged by the content of their charactor.

     But that's just >my< opinion <shrug>.

     Thanks,

     Liberal Patriot

 

by Liberal Patriot on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 02:12:40 AM EST

Re: Diversity... (none / 0)

That's OK on the net. But when a think tank or a media outlet asks for bloggers within a certain demographic and in a certain locality, could you give out a recommendation? Most bloggers cannot.

These little details are all about strategic networking. Take a cue from BushCo --one of the most gender and racially integrated administrations this country has had.

If we cannot come up with a group of bloggers mirroring the diversity of BushCo for every media region in this country; then it's time we start looking for it. There's a lot of really talented people out there who could be "the face" of the progressive netroots in the different media regions of the US.

So people, this is not about being above racism by being color-blind online. The brouhaha started after a string of online and offline incidents and events that basically showed a bias towards bloggers of a certain skin-tone, gender and/or with a certain number of hits on their logs.

by liza on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 10:14:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

diversity isn't about reader discrimination (none / 0)

I think you're looking at a different side of this than the one that matters to those of us who care about it.  You're focusing simply on the readers, and how much they know, or care, about the identities of the bloggers they read.  From that perspective, you're right - the net has achieved King's ideal.  I rarely know, or notice, whether the people I see posting on these political blogs are white or black or amerind or latino or male or female.  As far as that goes, great.  It means that when you're in, you're in.  If you post a diary on kos and kos frontpages it, people will read you, often without an inkling of your gender or race.

That perspective entirely avoids the real issue we're thinking about.

The point isn't whether people will treat you fairly once they're already reading you, it's whether you'll post for them to read in the first place, and whether, when you do post, they'll see it.

The point isn't that we don't know whose perspectives we're reading, it's whose perspectives we actually do get to see.

Let's take a hypothetical. I'll deliberately choose one that nobody has presented any data about or talked about in this discussion so far.  Let's say that most political bloggers are at least lower middle class economically, and that very few poor people living in urban areas participate in the political blogs we read.  Of course, when you read someone's post, you don't know how much money they have, and you don't know how urban their place of residence is, unless they tell you.  So if the above hypothetical is true, you won't know that you're reading very few urban poor.

However, that won't change the fact that you're not reading blogs by urban poor - not knowing that you're not doing so, doesn't mean you'll hear their perspective.  It doesn't mean that the issues of high priority to them will get a lot of coverage.  It simply means that you won't be aware of the problem, and be less likely to see it as a problem.

No matter how race-blind, gender-blind, class-blind, or otherwise identity-blind and group-blind a read you, and I, and everyone else may be, it will still be important for us to pursue diversity, for that reason.

by cos on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 11:13:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Watch Your Language! (none / 0)

I'd say this is a distortion of what's commonly considered either 'academic' or 'activist'.

There's nothing 'activist' about sitting on your butt and churning out posts five times a day.

-- From an academic who moonlights as an activist

Independent Illinois Grassroots: IllinoisDemNet.com
by patachon on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 05:08:31 AM EST

quality activism? (2.00 / 1)

Do you think organizing demonstrations that affect nothing is quality activism?
Rrrinnggg... Time to change the government.
by Carl Nyberg on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 11:26:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: quality activism? (none / 0)

It's a rather inactive interpretation of activism to prefer staying at home over organizing a demonstration -- even at the risk of "affecting nothing".

As anyone who has ever organized events on a regular basis can tell you, the secret is to organize it even if it looks like it'll "affect nothing".  More often than not, you'll be pleasantly surprised.

Independent Illinois Grassroots: IllinoisDemNet.com
by patachon on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 02:09:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: quality activism? (none / 0)

One, not everybody likes demonstrations. There're people that get an adrenaline rush out of them and there are people that don't. You shouldn't disparage activism that involves working the media and elected officials.

Two, what have demonstrations accomplished in the USA in the last 30 years?

Rrrinnggg... Time to change the government.
by Carl Nyberg on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 05:47:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

women, linking and A-listers (3.00 / 2)

I cross-posted the following at DKos:

The following posts at Big Brass Blog, covered the gender issue, addressing Kevin Drum's apparent inability to find female political bloggers worth linking to. Drum actually corresponded with Shakespeare's Sister over these:

Here's a snippet from "Get Real". [Drum eventually copped to being the author of some of the quotes referenced below.]

We're not going to get anywhere as long as the male bloggers who post about this issue continue to do so with such appalling intellectual dishonesty. In private emails, male bloggers who publicly wring their hands about how to solve the problem of the dearth of women bloggers in the upper echelon, will admit that the reality is the difficulty of finding women worth linking to.

Women don't give me much linkable material.

Women write on subjects that don't interest me.

Women don't know how to compromise on abortion rights.

Why don't women post about Social Security? It affects them, too.

Women don't write commentary, don't come up with new ideas.

Gender politics is all secondary issues.



The day I see any one of those notions let loose for open debate on one of the blogs authored by a man who holds those opinions is the day we might actually get somewhere with this discussion. Until then, take all the disingenuous bullshit philosophizing about whether women can hack the blogosphere, the percentage of women in the blogosphere, and all the rest of it, and shove it up your asses.

I'm willing to have a long and interesting conversation with anyone who's willing to tell me point blank that I and other women bloggers don't write on subjects that interest them and don't give them much linkable material. I'm willing to discuss it for as long as it takes to convince them that gender politics (including both women's issues and gay rights issues) are not secondary issues to half their party, and that the idea of anyone calling him- or herself a political blogger who ignores political issues of primacy to large swaths of their party is patently absurd. I'm willing to have a talk about the deeply ingrained and insidious sexism that is really at the root cause of this problem.

But as long as there's a collective reluctance to replace the faux suppositions with the real prejudices in the navel-gazing posts, there's no one with whom to have that conversation. Except, of course, my fellow bloggrrls, none of whom ever actually believed it's anything other than the same old tired biases, anyway. Being more creative at disguising them behind your wide-eyed mystification about where all the women are isn't clever; it's pathetic.


Equally interesting has been the fallout from these two posts on B3 about diversity and linking beyond the "A-list":

*
[I happen to be minority, a woman, gay and do political blogging (Pam's House Blend), and made it Koufax semis this year in two categories. The only larger blog that blogrolled me, btw, was AmericaBlog -- John deserved to be on more people's blogrolls before the Gannon thing broke open.]

by pamindurham on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 10:01:06 AM EST

Re: women, linking and A-listers (none / 0)

Thanks for joining in Pam!
by liza on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 10:17:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: women, linking and A-listers (none / 0)

You make some good points, PaminDurham.

I've been blogging politics since June '03 when Matt Stoller invited me to blog with him on an Unofficial Kerry Blog which he promptly left for greener pastures (Clark), soon after. My blogging on the Unofficial Kerry Blog garnered me enough respect to blog for the Kerry Blog as a volunteer, the only volunteer contributer to the Kerry Blog on a regular basis for nearly a year. Stoller never recognized my achievement, much due I surmise to the fact that he had aspired to Blog for Kerry but found greener pastures with Clark.

Since the Kerry campaign, I co-founded LightUpTheDarkness with another woman blogger and LUTD is a purely Liberal Politics orientated website offering not only a wealth of political information and links but a Blog that is regularly linked on the Daou Report, and has been linked by Talk Left, TPM, TruthOut FYI, and more.

Although we joined ThereIsNoCrisis and regularly post on Social Security, we've never been linked.

Our Blog topics range through the issues and the news and we offer a wide range of personal commentary as well as a male perspective.

I occassionly cross blog on Kos, though Kos has never acknowledged me and I surmiss partially due to my past and present support for Kerry.

Suffice to say that I have frequently considered that the some of the bias on the Leftist Blogosphere could involve who's supporting who. It's no small secret that Kos, MyDD and other's on the A List still frequently bash Kerry, and made regular habit of it during the campaign.

I find it particulary curious that the Boys Club sets up Blog Cliques on the issues like Social Security, but when a couple of women ask for support of Kerry's Kids First Act, they are ignored by the A List. Why? Could it be because it's a Kerry driven issue and some members of the A List would prefer to bash Kerry than support anything he does? Or is it because the A List Boys Clique does feel that health insurance for kids as as viable an issue as Social Security? Don't think they have not been all invited to join our efforts... every query to get involved has been unanswered by the likes of Kos, MyDD and others.

Where was the A List during the ANWR fight? Pretty silent from what I could see. Although Kerry was the driving force behind that fight, the lack of support on the Blogosphere was astounding. Did Kerry lack support on the internet for his efforts? Hardly, as his petition garnered 460,000 signers in less than 48 hours. LUTD offered in dpeth coverage of ANWR, not only covering Kerry's efforts but an concise look at the issue.

This of course is my personal bias experience, bias I consider to be due to support of a candidate and gender.

However, there are plenty of well written female perspectives on the Blogosphere on a range of issues and although those issues may not interest the Boys Club, they may interest their readers.

It's my opinion, that the bloggers of the Big Tent party really need to come together and work together on all the issues and support them equally if were going to get anywhere in '06 or '08.

by Pamela on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 12:00:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: women, linking and A-listers (none / 0)

I think it is less about who the A-listers are supporting than it is the "clique effect." I think it's simply easier for the top dogs to link to one another than seek out and discern new interesting voices with all the chatter that's out there.

The key issue is when the lack of attention to self-identified voices of color/gender/sexual orientation is brought to A-lister's attention, will  they still continue operating in the echo chamber of their friends. History so far shows a bit of intransigence.

As I've said on my own blog and elsewhere, I find that an opinion is definitely received differently by readers when someone self-identifies (particularly when they hold an opinion counter to the perceived "conventional wisdom opinion" of the group to which the author belongs).

Refusing to seeking out those perspectives in the blogosphere prevents A-listers from seeing the  relevance of those views in the overall political landscape -- and with it, possible strategies that may help progressive politics.

by pamindurham on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 12:38:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Maybe (none / 0)

women simply aren't interested in politics to the same extent men are? There are two separate genders, you know.

And I'm hoping you're not suggesting a sort of "affirmative action" for women where you purposely link to womens' blogs just because they're women.

by knuckle50 on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 11:50:29 PM EST

There seems to be a forest for the trees problem (none / 0)

I've kind of been on the periphery of this issue, not really paying much attention to it, but at the same time thinking about it.

The success of blogs, is that the gender/race of the writer is irrelevant.  

One of the great promises of the internet, which has largely been ignored in this debate, is the democratization of the internet.

Remove the commercial component, in which you have some people who blog as a part of their jobs, or those who self-identify, and their blog is a part of their identification, such as Uppity-Negro, what are you left with.

Ultimately a bunch of faceless individuals who pound at their keyboards for as little as a few minutes per week, or as much as a bunch of hours per day.

Then there is the "dominant link hierarchy" that some like to pontificate about.  My blog is on the blogroll of 4 blogs.  None of them are named Eschaton, DailyKos, TalkingPointsMemo, etc.  Again, part of the democratization of the internet, was supposed to reduce the effect of a small group of individuals essentially directing to a large group where to look, what to read, etc.  However, it seems a part of human nature is to be directed where to look, what to read.  But, does that mean that people like Atrios, Kos, Josh Marshall, et al have some obligation to point to me, or any other blogger?

Obviously some think that it does.  This whole discussion would not have started were it not for the belief that Atrios, or any other blogger with a large readership, has an obligation to me as a reader, or me as a blogger trying to get noticed.  

When it comes to the representation of groups other than white males, look at internet demographics.  For many years the primary user of the internet, and primary content creator was the white male.  While the user base is starting to spread to other demographic groups, who is still the primary content creator?  

Women and non-white males are beginning to create content on the internet, and as that content enters the internet "conscience" (for lack of a better term) everyone will certainly benefit from it.  But in a general interest political website, such as Kos or Eschaton, what will these other demographics bring?

Unfortunately, part of what I see is that non-white-males need attention paid to

by David Austin Tx on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 12:24:01 AM EST

Hit the post button too fast. (none / 0)

Sorry, I didn't finish, and hit the post button accidently.

Unfortunately, part of what I see is that non-white-males need attention paid to because they are not white, or not male.

I guess I am living in a bit of a utopia when I say that the quality of the writing should dictate the attention paid, rather than the gender/race of the writer.

by David Austin Tx on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 12:26:18 AM EST


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