MyDD :: Theo-cons: the political base in Gods Own Party

Theo-cons: the political base in Gods Own Party

by Jerome Armstrong, Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 08:38:32 PM EST

The vote to assert federal control of the Schiavo vegetative case is expected to pass just after midnight in the House, at 12:01. At least 2 Democrats in the House (not sure which) had the hardball sense to make the Republicans fly in 218 members to create a majority. Bush is giving up a night in Crawford in order to pass it asap as well, probably with a post-midnight signing of the law.

This is one of those situations where you watch your opponent self-destruct, and you don't intervene. The crass nature of the Republican Party is on full display to the nation with their kneeling before their base, and it's revolting to a strong majority outside the echo chamber. The Republicans in Congress say that they don't want this to be a precedent, which exposes their motive as political, without principle.

As a Democrat looking at the Republicans, and hoping that they nominate the least electable among the bunch, It's encouraging to see Frist emerge as the most servile, among the kowtow '08 Republican wannabees.

Iowa is a great place for Republicans to begin. In 2000, remember Bush standing before the wall painting of Jesus, there to proclaim he's been born again, right as his cocaine experience was coming out? Iowa's got just as many fundamental winguts as does Kansas, and in a caucus, we are going to see Frist and the like lurch to please the fundamental base at an unprecedented public level.

Frist is a heart surgeon, and has no training to pass a medical judgement of Schiavo. Yet, with just a viewing of a video, Frist pronounces that the medical examiners in Florida are wrong, and this vegatative existence should be kept in 'life'. He's just getting started, yet Allen, Santorum, and others will give Frist strong competition in being the choice of their base. Evolution? It's a lie. Aids? It's contracted by saliva. NYC? A bed of sin. The UN? The antichrist. Even the erstwhile honest politician McCain has gotten into the act.

For those in the womb, and those on machines, the Republican "life" preachers are all as sticky as it gets. It's as if this life is all they have, without anything to look forward to at death. Their actions speak louder than words. I've already claimed WTF regarding this, and the projection of the divine on Terri Schiavo that's occurring is downright creepy. It will likely get even wierder, as the fanatic wierdos gain in number and "hammer God with prayer" even further (here's to admitting there of an admirable tolerance toward her followers).

That's OK, the greater their fanaticism, the more obscene the Republicans in Congress and Bush will be in their obsequious of the nescient theo-cons. The Federal courts are going to slap this down just as quick as the state courts did, because it's nonsense. Ultimately, we'll likely see Bush issue an Executive Order that Shavio remain in vegetative existence until the machines die.

Update: One hell of a 'what's this about' and 'what's next' by Andrew Cohen, Trial By Legislation. I've put a bit of it in the extended entry.

Update II: C-Span has the procedures live.

...that's the whole point of this Congressional action. Not liking a particular result in a case that has been litigated fully and completely by a court with competent jurisdiction, Congress now has said that the game must be re-done with new rules that heavily favor one side over the other. The implications of this move are astonishing. Just think about it. Anytime Congress doesn't like the result in a particular case, it could swoop in and call a "do-over," which is essentially what this legislation represents. And this from a Congress that has for a decade or so tried to keep all sorts of citizens-- including disabled employees-- out of federal court. If this law is declared valid, no decision in any state court in the country will be immune from Congressional second-guessing. It would throw out of whack the entire concept of separation of powers. The constitutional law expert Tribe calls it "trial by legislation" and he is right.

QUESTION: You are getting agitated again. Doesn't the legislation specifically say that it does not "constitute a precedent with respect to future legislation, including the provision of private relief bills"?

ANSWER: Yes, it says that. But so what. It said that the last time Congress did this and it didn't stop Congress from doing this now. Look, there is no other way to put it: this is the most blatant and egregious power-grab by one branch over another in my lifetime. Congress is intruding so far into the power of the judiciary, on behalf of a single family, that it is breathtaking....

Tags: Republicans (all tags)

Permalink :: 94 Comments :: Post a Comment

This Is A Wash, Politically (none / 0)

I'm not so sure that the Schiavo case is hurting Republicans. How many would really want your spouse to be making the choice if he already had a child with his new "common law" wife, as apparently is the case with Mr. Schiavo? With the allegations of neglect and the attitude of the husband, there's enough to make more than Republicans a little queasy about the effort to deny food to Mrs. Schiavo.

And speaking of Iowa, Tom Harkin doesn't seem to think that all Republicans are off-base on Schiavo:

http://harkin.senate.gov/news.cfm?id=234123

by SLinVA on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 09:00:46 PM EST

Re: This Is A Wash, Politically (none / 0)

That's life in the bubble for you regarding Harkin.

That's interesting though, your take, as it shows just how quickly the Republicans have succeeded in framing "the choice"-- you have to admire their ability to recognize the strength, and go right after that with their effort of demeaning its cred.

by Jerome Armstrong on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 09:07:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm calling Bullshit! (3.00 / 1)

If the Democrats let it become a wash it will be. You and Tom Harkin both need to educate yourself someplace besides free republic.

With the allegations of neglect and the attitude of the husband, there's enough to make more than Republicans a little queasy about the effort to deny food to Mrs. Schiavo.

I'm calling Bullshit! The husband has been demonized and the facts have been twisted. How many decades after Terry's death do you expect Michael to remain faithful? Give me a break.

Denying food? She can't eat food, because she is dead. Liquid nutrition is being pumped into her dead organs. Coincidentally, in a Food for thought comment, I posted this:

Michael Schiavo, who had sought to have her feeding tube removed, said that Congress was "getting into something they know nothing about."

"And it's sad," he said. "If they can do it to me, they can do it to everyone in this country."

The swiftboat vets made allegations. Fuck allegations.

Wexler was just on CSPAN and said nine-teen judges have examined the medical evidence and decided she was dead. The reason not a single judge has ruled for the parents is that the parents have no facts and no case.

Even Catholic theologians have problems with this case.

Some critics and church dissidents contend the Vatican has gone too far in emphasizing physical life over quality of life.

In the Christian tradition, death is not necessarily such a bad thing. It is the entry to the afterlife, to the house of God.

Daniel C. Maguire, an ex-priest and moral theologian who teaches at Marquette University in Milwaukee, criticized Vatican hard-liners for a "fetishism of life signs" whereby any sign of life is used as justification for postponing death.

What if the Pope lapsed into a vegetative state?

"They are putting tremendous stress on physical life signs rather than survival of the personality," he said in an interview. The risk with that policy, taken too far, is that functions such as breathing or a heartbeat are being maintained when the "personal consciousness" is no longer there, he said.

In the end, "you could easily have a totally incompetent pope for an indefinite period," Maguire said. "It is a very interesting conundrum that they are boxing themselves into."

by Gary Boatwright on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 09:49:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Wow! (none / 0)

If that happened, and the Pope ended up in a vegetative state for, like 20 years, that would be such poetic justice, it would almost make me believe in God.

But, as usual, it would be a rather cruel sort of creature who would do that sort of supernatural thing.

by Paul Rosenberg on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 09:55:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wow! (none / 0)

Why are you picking on God? She allows us free will and isn't responsible for the stupidity of the Republican party.

by Gary Boatwright on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 10:27:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Sorry, Wrong God! n/t (none / 0)

by Paul Rosenberg on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 10:57:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm calling Bullshit! (none / 0)

If the Democrats let it become a wash it will be. You and Tom Harkin both need to educate yourself someplace besides free republic.

Simply put, this is unpopular, but the other side wants it worse. Thus the story of single issue voters.

My position is that this case has no place in a political arena. The difference between Michael Schaivo's version of events and Terri's parents needs to be settled by the courts.

I wouldn't touch this hot potato with a ten foot pole.

by wayward on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 10:53:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It WAS Settled By The Courts (none / 0)

And as for keeping politics out of it, that's what separation of powers is for.

This is not about Terry Schaivo. It's about the destruction of our Constitution's basic architecture. This is neo-feudalism, pure and simple.

by Paul Rosenberg on Mon Mar 21, 2005 at 12:16:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm calling Bullshit! (none / 0)

19 judges.
10 court cases.
Every single doctor that investigated and studied her as case, including court apointed doctors.
All of them agree.

Yet these Republican legislators who haven't practiced in years, by viewing a video and reviewing the case know better.

Everyone, let's stop following the misdirection, yet again.

Bush's approval is at 45%. No one believes the Republicans about social security. It's the two year anniversary of our invasion of Iraq.

But hey, look, those activist judges are trying to starve this poor woman to death. Look, look, look. Over here! Not over there. Look over here! They're starving this poor woman to death! Culture of Life, moral values, and all that...

Witty comment goes here...

by michael in chicago on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 11:00:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This Is A Wash, Politically (none / 0)

Baloney! There is no common law marriage in the state of Florida. You have been brainwashed by Republican propaganda against Michael Shiavo.

Tom Harkin and dare I say it, yes, Harry Reid, are assisting the Republican's in this ghoulish charade!

Despictable!

by bellarose on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 11:12:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

free art (3.00 / 0)

This piece seems to reflect some of what you are talking about:

It's free for the taking.

DAGGER

by goplies on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 09:17:34 PM EST

It's on CSPAN right now (none / 0)

Sensenbrenner and Wexler just finished.

by Gary Boatwright on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 09:20:52 PM EST

Re: It's on CSPAN right now (none / 0)

Nice - I was wondering when they start picking this up. This is their bread and butter. Long Live C-SPAN.

by neolib on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 09:32:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This is only the beginning . . . (none / 0)

Mr. Armstrong thank you for pouring your guts out on this one. This is a very serious matter. The Federal government is intervening on a State matter that has been deliberated for more than 10 years.

I understand SLinVA's point of the weirdness or slickiness of Mr. Schiavo. But the larger picture here is the unpresidentedeness (if that word exists, it does now) of the whole thing. I think it is scary that so much power can be brought to bear on this issue without much recourse. Except, nad SLinVA might be right that a wash may exist, not for his reason, but because the Florida courts could rule the legislation unconstitutional.

Let me throw this out, the sheer magnitude and feeling of the Right asserting itself in this Moral way produces a critical middle of the road question - Could the Schiavo case and the Social Security failure spell the end of the reign of Republicans and will Moderates see that Ooops, we elected something (Congress-Rep, White House-Rep, possibly a Justice-Rep) we did not want?

by neolib on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 09:21:08 PM EST

Re: This is only the beginning . . . (none / 0)

I don't underestimate the ability of the Republicans to frame the debate while in a vacuum, so this might just become the norm.

by Jerome Armstrong on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 10:24:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This is only the beginning . . . (none / 0)

I hope not, but at the same time I hope so, twisted I know. 2 things are happening simultaneously, the Republicans are lining up the chess pieces to advance a wholly Christian Right wing agenda. At the same time you are beginning to see fractures and leakage in the great Republican ship. I forgot to mention above the whole Tom Delay ugly scandal and his associations with Abrahams or Abrahamson.

These I issues have to be driving people crazy that are moderates.

We have to prepare to fill this vacuum.

by neolib on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 10:29:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This is only the beginning . . . (none / 0)

Yea, thats right. I have a Dr friend, libertarian my money fellow, that's voted Republican up and down for years, writing off this "parking lot Church" crap all along the way. I'm gonna have to check in with him to see if this is on his radar, as I know he's dogmatic about having a 'right to die'.

by Jerome Armstrong on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 10:48:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This is only the beginning . . . (none / 0)

Getting old is a rough thing. I am still young and I still listen to the older folks. G-d prepares for death with grandparents passing away and then our parents. There are many people I know in there older age who do not want to suffer or go through terrible operations. This case is at this core.

You know it is funny that you mention Tom Harkin and that you have a picture of him with you on the campaign. My older cousin is Tom's Senior Legislative Assistant - Richard Bender. I was in DC in November for a family thing and I asked him if he knew about Blogs. I drew a blank but fascinated look.

Would love to talk with you about doing something cool in their office and further education of Senators to the merits of Blogging. I was glad to see you guys have Russ Feingold on, that was awesome. You have my e-mail in my profile. Thanks.

by neolib on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 11:19:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Money (none / 0)

This story is so disgusting because it's all about money.

Mike Schiavo has every reason to kill off Terri because he keeps her medical malpractice settlment.

The Schindlers have every reason to seek control of their daughter because they also get rich.

Just what perverse political end guys like Tom DeLay have for taking up this cross...I don't know...but this woman is brain-dead. The attorneys for both sides ought to ask Michael to donate Terri's money to charity in exchange for her being let go. If not, these lawyers ought to be disbarred for this conduct. It's a disgrace.

by risenmessiah on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 11:28:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Money (none / 0)

<<Mike Schiavo has every reason to kill off Terri because he keeps her medical malpractice settlment.>>

You are wrong--too many people are NOT paying attention to the details of this story. There's only $40k left the insurance money. His attorneys are now pro bono. And hey, the guy has been offered $$millions and has turned it down.

http://www.sptimes.com/2005/03/17/Tampabay/Money_is_just_about_e.shtml

The money has been wasted by her parents' endless legal shenigans.

by sawgrass727 on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 11:42:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Money (none / 0)

Read your own link. Michael is entitled to whatever is left. The parents tried to wrest it away from him. I'm more outraged that the respective attorneys allowed this to continue.

It might be that not that much dough is left, but my central point is that this fight started over money.

And irony of ironies if they keep Terri alive only to have cuts in Medicaid kill her off later.

by risenmessiah on Mon Mar 21, 2005 at 12:48:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Bleeding heart conservative idealists, (none / 0)

or is that bleeding heart fundamentalist idealists.

Jeff Wegerson - PrairieStateBlue

by wegerje on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 09:32:37 PM EST

Re: Bleeding heart fascists (3.00 / 1)

Compassionate Fascism is one of my favorites.

by Gary Boatwright on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 11:51:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It's Manichean Time (none / 0)

Democrats have to wake up! I posted a link to my Terry Noonan is Evil diary over at dkos. One bone head asked "What kind of Democrat are you?"

Wouldn't want to be rude, don't you know. Now today, kossacks are all shocked! Shocked I say! This whole sad soap opera was so predictable.

I think we need to frame this as a Culture of Necrophilia.

by Gary Boatwright on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 09:32:38 PM EST

Solomon, Hypocrisy Of The Pharisees (none / 0)

As far as whether the husband, or the parents, should make a decision for an incapacitated person, IMO it depends on the nature of the husband or parents. I have known of families in the past where you would want one but not the other, or the other but not the one, to make the decision. I am not familiar enough with this case to say either way; from afar it looks like the case that was brought before Solomon.

But as far as the Republicans' sudden "got religion" on right to life, if Schiavo was bankrupt from the medical bills, do you think they would give a damn for the well-being of either Schiavo? Not, based on their other recent Senate vote, very bloody likely.

When will a sufficient number of fundamentalists and evangelicals spot the bloody pawprints trailing behind that tattered bundle of sheep fleece calling itself the Republican Party? I know some are, here is one who got a rude awakening indeed:

http://shlonkombakazay.blogspot.com/2005/02/efficient-version-holy-st-its-fascist.html

by ItsBeenCalmingForSomeTime on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 09:36:52 PM EST

Re: Democrats the Death Party? (none / 0)

You are right, it does look like the Republicans are doing the right thing.

I wish we could have the President fly-back to Washington and have Congress convene until midnight every day for larger and more important issues. No child should go to sleep at night without being fed, what about them? Older people should not fear the next medical bill and on and on.

Don't you think we should have a broader discourse on Right to Die issues than this show of Republicans saving the day?

by neolib on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 09:49:20 PM EST

Republicans the Necrophilia Party? (none / 0)

It might look like that if you ignore the facts. There is not a moral, ethical, medical, legal or Constitutional argument for what the Republicans are trying to do.

Query: How many more decades can medical science keep Terry's corpse mechanically functioning?

There has been a big focus on everybody getting Living Wills. How many people are going to request that their bodies be kept on life support in a nursing home bed for thirty or forty years after they die?

Republicans are worshipping a Culture of Necrophilia.

by Gary Boatwright on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 09:59:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Republicans the Necrophilia Party? (none / 0)

At what cost? Doctors bills and hospital fees would bury most people within a few years. Whose tax dollars will go towards "supporting" these people, not the rich.

I know this sounds gross, it kind of reminds me of the Matrix with all sorts of plugs and life support systems attached to you. Who knew the Matrix started in the Right Wing?

by neolib on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 10:11:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Better than a wash if played right (none / 0)

This is an excellent opportunity for Dems to understand what it means to be the minority party. This issue is between the Republicans and the wing-nut fringe. They have total control and if they want to pass an unconstitutional bill of atainder and prance about thinking this is such a great political move they can and will and we would be wise to allow them to do it. They are undermining their own legitimacy and for once and all abandoning their position as the party of state's right. This will resonate in the south where the misconception is that everyone is a bible thumpin' Cletus. We're not. We're just still a little burnt by losing that civil war we had. And that's state rights. I would imagine that there are more than a few smart Republicans, Rove included, who are not at all happy about this. Christmongering was never suppossed to get this loud. Your mainstream religious southerner aren't going to like this. They think the husband is weird and that if her parents want to prop her in the corner of the living room for the next 60s years they should be able to. But in the south this is considered family business and the whole scene is going to start stinking real fast.
There is a real opportunity here. I just wonder if anyone is going to do it right. Reid caved and is now being used as a human shield by the GOP. Waxman came on way too strong and, as such, is playing right into the GOP hands. I want to hear what Hillary says. I have a feeling she'll get it right and that Lindsay Graham might be in the room when she says it.

by Welsh on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 09:51:09 PM EST

Scaring the Moderates (none / 0)

Right. Hilary did seem very chummy with McCain on various Sunday shows a few weeks ago.

There will be people who know personally about Right to Die issues at home and see this and realize this is a serious matter.

How do you think women will come down on this issue?

by neolib on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 10:03:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Better than a wash if played right (none / 0)

It is an issue Hugo, and I know more about it than you care to know.

This isn't about "Public Support." This is about the Congress purposely subverting the separation of powers mandated by the Constitution of the United States of America for purely political gain.

Just wait until the Congress asserts itself in your family's personal decisions, Hugo. I predict you'll then change your position, right quick.

by bellarose on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 10:43:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Better than a wash if played right (none / 0)

Hugh, what the hell, Hugh.

by bellarose on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 10:59:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Better than a wash if played right (none / 0)

Again, you are absolutely right. I think you have mixed up a few issues and my stance on them. Schiavo is not the issue, it is the Right to Die issue clear cut. I do not believe in Kevorkian or what he stands for. I believe that Hospice does do great things for all people in need.

I am simply amazed at the voracity and amount or power being brought to bear on this case.

How is this going to play in middle America, on the coasts and around the world? Simple question and you might be right.

by neolib on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 10:47:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Better than a wash if played right (none / 0)

"How is this going to play in middle America, on the coasts and around the world? Simple question and you might be right. "

Dear Lord, this isn't about "how it's going to play." The Republicans are now tampering with our Constitution! Pay attention to what's important here!

by bellarose on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 10:55:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Better than a wash if played right (none / 0)

Hah-I know what they are doing and commented so. I was trying a conciliatory way of talking with "hugh". All opinions are valuable, provided that you do not abandon your own core ideals. I'm happy to listen to "hugh".

by neolib on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 11:09:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pay attention! (none / 0)

One last thing. I asked that question because I am paying attention. When the media leaked the Republican Memorandom about Nelson having to come out against the issue and that Democrats are losing ground in this one and that this is helping the Republican base. This is political and you have to be concerned about how Middle American views this. I am worried about the level attention Middle America gives to a broad range of issues and how brainwashed they have become.

by neolib on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 11:42:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Better than a wash if played right (none / 0)

"You don't care about unborn babies, who live and play in the womb, so you call the "fetuses" worthy of any torture or death because it's not you. You don't care about Terry Schiavo because she's not you."

PS: I also find it hard to believe a dude named "Hugh" has any clue about babies living and playing in the womb.

by bellarose on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 10:50:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Better than a wash if played right (none / 0)

PS: I also find it hard to believe a dude named "Hugh" has any clue about babies living and playing in the womb.

Ok, let's stop this right here.

There are plenty of men and women who agree with each of you.

Too many people tend to mistake the abortion issues as being about men trying to control women's bodies, as if it is entirely a male vs. female issue.

However, there are men who are quite pro-choice, some for considerably less than noble reasons, such as that they do not want to support a child that they created. Likewise, there are women who could not imagine anything worse than ending the life of a child in the womb.

That being said, for men, the debate is always in the abstract. Reproductive rights vs. right-to-life, which is more important? An interesting ethical debate for most of us guys. For women, it is considerably more than that. It is the desire for the equality and dignity that comes from being able to make decisions about her own body vs. maternal instinct. Whatever a woman's position on the issue is, it comes from a perspective that a man would never be in either way.

by wayward on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 11:15:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Better than a wash if played right (none / 0)

No, I don't think I will stop here.

There's been all kinds of talk about throwing pregnant women's rights and lives away so the Dems can appeal to some hypothetical wider audience.

Hugh's admission that he knows about babies playing in the womb through films is indicative of the problem. This isn't about something someone once saw on the Discovery Channel! It's about human beings, in their own particular circumstances, making fundamental, indeed monumental decisions. Hugh, doesn't know what it's like to be pregnant. I do. It isn't a small thing. It's not a hypothetical thing! He (and frankly, I) have no right to insinuate ourselves into other people's lives and their life altering decisions.

So no, I don't give much credence to a dude named "Hugh" and his thoughts about babies in the womb.

by bellarose on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 11:48:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Better than a wash if played right (none / 0)

Actually, the problem is that the fetus may be in the woman's body, but it is not a part of the woman's body. A fetus is a separate, living organism with a heart and brain.

by elrod on Mon Mar 21, 2005 at 12:01:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Better than a wash if played right (none / 0)

Really? So if you take it out, it's fine?

Funny, I was sure the little fella needed to hang out for a while. I thought he was was pretty much dependent on the mom. Jeez, now I feel silly.

Apparently, since, you know, it's "separate" we can just take it out and let it fend for itself.

Problem solved!

by bellarose on Mon Mar 21, 2005 at 12:25:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Better than a wash if played right (2.00 / 1)

Oh, you saw FILMS???

Oh, never mind then. You know all about it! Women have no clue. Only Hugh knows!

by bellarose on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 11:16:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Better than a wash if played right (3.00 / 0)

I'll watch your movies all day long Hugh.

Assuming you are or were every married, would you allow your wife to die to protect the life of your baby? Would your wife agree to die to protect the life of her baby? Would you want Congress making the decision for you and your wife if they didn't like your decision?

What if you and your wife decided that, for whatever reason, you were going to abort the baby. Let's assume it had a missing brain stem, which can happen, and delivery would threaten your wife's ability to have another child, which you both want very much.

Would you want Congress to decide that your wife was obligated to carry that baby to term? One out of three thousand pregnancies result in death of the mother. Does that make any difference to you Hugh?

If you want to continue this discussion, perhaps you should write your own diary. Your arguments so far have been pretty lame Hugh.

by Gary Boatwright on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 11:16:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Better than a wash if played right (none / 0)

Terry Schiavo is not alive. what is in that hospital room is a husk of tissues being kept from necrotizing by a machine. it will never get better. it will never think, or talk, or get out of that bed.

and yet, this is more important to the Republicans than improving health care for the millions of living Americans who don't have any health insurance. I'm glad they have priorities.

by johnny longtorso on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 11:00:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Better than a wash if played right (none / 0)

They are using her in the most despicable way. She is nothing but a political symbol to them.

Did you hear Delay saying she "missed two meals today?" Utter, bullshit! That's not the way feeding tubes work.

They are throwing this brain dead woman to their base like a Christian to the lions. They are grotesque.

by bellarose on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 11:06:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Better than a wash if played right (none / 0)

Thank-you for endorsing my comment calling you on your bull-shit Hugh. Perhaps you should consider my previous request that you express yourself with greater specificity.

How does allowing people to go peacefully diminish the compassion of the Democratic party?

More specificity Hugh. More specificity. Vague, general accusations don't carry a whole lot of weight.

by Gary Boatwright on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 11:32:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Better than a wash if played right (none / 0)

"I think you are grotesque because you are destroying all credibility of the Democratic Party as a part of compassion."

That doesn't even make sense. What the hell are you talking about, Hugh?

by bellarose on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 11:55:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm calling Bull-shit! (none / 0)

I am getting the message: You don't care about human life, except your own! You don't care about unborn babies, who live and play in the womb, so you call the "fetuses" worthy of any torture or death because it's not you. You don't care about Terry Schiavo because she's not you.

You are twisting the message Hugh. I don't care about the civil rights of corpses. I don't care about the civil liberties of a mass of cells in the first ninety days of pregnancy, and I think the civil liberties of the pregnant mother always super-cede the rights of the embryo or fetus or baby, choose your own descrptive terms.

How many medical procedures do you classify as torture Hugh? Is heart surgery torture? People die from heart surgery. I protested the war yesterday because I do care about life. I'm going to a candle-light vigil against the war tonight, because I do care about life.

What have you done to demonstrate your concern about life Hugh? Don't get all self-righteous and sanctimonious at MyDD Hugh. We don't respond to twisted hypocrisy well here.

I don't care about what happens to Terry Schiavo's body because it is dead. Human decency requires that dead bodies be properly put to rest.

by Gary Boatwright on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 11:11:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm calling Bull-shit! (1.00 / 1)

Are you a necrophiliac Hugh? Why are you so concerned about a corpse?

As if it would cost you or the nation anything to keep her alive! What do you expect to gain from the issue?

There are just under 50,000 people in the U.S. in either a coma or persistent vegetative state. If the GOPers have their way, that number will increase dramatically. Perhaps you should read my diary, Peggy Noonan is Evil. That should clarify some of the ethical and moral issues that you are so confused about.

by Gary Boatwright on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 11:57:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Shiavo another missed oppurtunity (3.00 / 1)

This would be a good oppurtunity to seize the initiative and argue for something larger while supporting the life of Terry Shiavo.

The Liberals are for the powerless and the weak, and desire the government to step in on their behalf. We all know the Republicans don't. While the Republicans are racing to save Terry now would be a good time to hammer the Republicans. Yes, we support the continued care of Terry Shiavo, as we do the contunied care of all Americans. No American should be left without healthcare due to economic pressures.

All Americans should support a country where health care is not just for those who can afford it. It is for everyone- cradle to grave.

I hope that the Democrats can sieze upon this oppurtunity, but will probably fail to in a fit of partisanship.

by Christopher Hitchens on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 10:29:56 PM EST

Re: Shiavo another missed oppurtunity (none / 0)

Disabilities rights activists, another traditionally liberal group, are siding with Terri's parents.

If Terri is a vegetable, then she probably doesn't give a damn what happens. If Terri is not a vegetable, then she should be cared for as prescribed under Florida law. There is no need to root for her death.

Either way, it is up to the courts to determine that, not a legislature. Nor should this be politicized. I can empathize with those who want to help Terri, but the facts of the case seem to say that she is beyond help.

by wayward on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 11:23:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Shiavo another great opportunity (none / 0)

There is no need to root for her death.

I'm just rooting for a decent burial. She died fifteen years ago.

by Gary Boatwright on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 11:40:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Shiavo another great opportunity (none / 0)

Yes, we support the continued care of Terry Shiavo, as we do the contunied care of all Americans.

I support continued care for all Americans. I don't support wasting medical care and medical resources on a corpse. I hope that Democrats seize this opportunity to demonstrate how unprincipled and unethical the GOPers are.

Rep. Capuano is on CSPAN right now saying,

"Leave me and my family alone! Stay out of my family. Leave us alone. Let my nucelar family make our own decisions about our own family.

That's the core of this issue. Who decides? Do you want Congress making these decisions about your family Christopher Hitchens?

I don't have that much respect for the wisdom of Congress, regardless of which party controls it.

by Gary Boatwright on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 11:39:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Shiavo another great opportunity (none / 0)

Sorry. That should have said "nucular family".

by Gary Boatwright on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 11:49:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The core of the issue (none / 0)

There is a clear compromise scenario on the table:

Concerned parties foot the bill for caring for Terry Schiavo. The husband relents and withdraws his opposition in the courts.

Who here would be materially hurt by this? I wouldn't. The husband, feeling that "till death do us part" is too stringent would be liberated from a responsibility he doesn't want and can't handle. Terry Schiavo wont be starved to death, a most inhumane way to kill someone.

One day she will die, as will we all. No need to hasten it. The dems are losing again, primarily by "not getting it". Do we intervene in child abuse, spousal abuse, and the like? You're damn right we do! Family autonomy only goes so far. These were causes championed by the left for centuries. For the dems to flail away for "states rights" now is the rankest hack tactic I can imagine.

Democrats should be trying to one-up the republicans by putting forth legislation that guarantess health care to anyone that asks for it. Turn the tables on the republicans, make them look like the less compassionate ones.

Finally, democrats should propose legislation that outlaws the withholding of feeding to any person. The government should be required to feed those who cannot feed themselves. What a barbaric action; if you want to kill someone, do it mercifully!

by Paul Goodman on Mon Mar 21, 2005 at 09:05:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The core of the issue (none / 0)

We already have laws against necrophilia. It should also be illegal to keep a corpse on mechanical life support.

We don't have to turn the tables on Republicans. They already are completely lacking in compassion.

by Gary Boatwright on Mon Mar 21, 2005 at 05:11:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Shiavo another great opportunity (none / 0)

In the absence of any proof that she actually wanted it this way, why can't the husband just move on, and let the parents just take over? I am pretty indifferent one way or the other.

Personally, I think both the parents and husband should move on. Obviously, the parents are going to be devastated if she dies. I don't see how the husband will be affected if he just lets the parents take over. The husband is being petty. Yes, I know of his refusal to take money to let her live. But this is not a case where principle really helps. Unlike euthanasia cases(which i recognize this is not), this is a case where the wife can't suffer by being kept alive anyway. If it's to protect her dignity, well the circus that as arisen out of this controversy is not one that will protect it anyway where viewers are subjected to a more vegetable version of Captain Pike being taken care of by her parents.

This is one issue where liberals should not use the liberal name to go against this. If people want to oppose the Republicans on this, by all means, be feel free to do so, but do it as individuals, not as behalf of any liberal organizations. This would be an unwise issue to fight the republicans on . There are a lot more pressing issues where the democrats are laying over. They let the oil bill through and not much of a fight back. What the hell has Hillary said on this topic?

What troubles me is the media is not doing a good job of interviewing doctors. Obviously doctors have convinced the judges that she is a vegetable incapable of being brought back to a practical living state. So why not interview different doctors instead of these political pundits.

by Pravin on Mon Mar 21, 2005 at 09:53:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Shiavo another missed oppurtunity (2.00 / 1)

This is not a "right to life" issue. It is an issue of the Congress arbitrarily overturning a court case whenever it doesn't like the outcome.

In my observation, whenever this "right to be forced to continue living" issue comes up, it is brought up by someone in one of two classes: the class of people who have no experience of devastating illness in the family; the class of people who do have experience, but care more about their own personal feelings than they do about the suffering of the individual who is to be forced to live in pain absolutely as long as possible.

I don't have any sympathy for your argument, in either case. The case of Mrs. Schiavo has been litigated for years and, as we all know, the outcome has been the same in every single court action. She's a corpse with nourishment being pumped into her.

The notion that her fate is somehow tied to the fates of millions of mistreated Americans is ludicrous. The same people voting for this legislation voted for war in Iraq, the bankruptcy bill, and denial of benefits to National Guard soldiers. If you really cared about "right to life," you'd be working to get those people out of office, get our soldiers home, and get decent health care for all Americans. But, how boring -- much easier to pontificate than do something that would really matter.

by pdxlooie on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 11:42:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Shiavo another missed oppurtunity (none / 0)

Thank you...

THe GOP are biting at the bit that the Dems did not take the bait.

CNN just outright lied and said the the Dems are fighting this on a pro-choice agenda...the assholes

Besides telling us how to live, think, marry, pray, vote, invest, educate our children and, die, the GOP has done a fine job of getting gov't out of our lives.

by Parker on Mon Mar 21, 2005 at 03:33:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I think Dems are playing this smart (none / 0)

I'd still like to hear one of them accuse the GOPers of necrophilia, but in the real world they seem to be saying Congress should just butt out.

That's going to be a very popular frame in both red and blue states. Barney Frank is the floor manager and doing a kick ass job. He crushes every single argument like a cockroach.

by Gary Boatwright on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 10:30:34 PM EST

Re: I think Dems are playing this smart (none / 0)

This is a tough issue with very little ground to find common. You are either for or against, Terri Lives or Dies. Seems like you are for Terri. That is great, but what about the larger picture. My fear is the diminishing of our rights as citizens and Too Much Power being wielded by the current administration. This is to much sacrafice for the War on Terrorism and the Patriot Act. What's next, where else can the administration intervene . . .

by neolib on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 10:58:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I think Dems are playing this smart (none / 0)

I sided with the parents all the way through the court system. I think the FL judicial system should have taken their feelings and observations into account.

They lost. Hell, I lost. What we are talking about now is the Congresses' unlawful decision to get involved in this.

It's unconstitutional. That is all, but that's enough. It's unconstitutional. That's why this action needs to be fought.

by bellarose on Mon Mar 21, 2005 at 12:15:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Then the constitution is wrong (none / 0)

There is no concievable necessity in withholdoing food from this woman. None. Some have thrown up some wild claim of "wasted resources". Hey, we THROW FOOD AWAY in this country. We spend billions on pets etc. We can take care of people first.

There is a song I love to sing when I am in church which goes "Whatsoever you do to the least of my people, that you do unto me."

Terry Schiavo is the least of our people. I would expect Liberals to be the first to rise in her defense and the last to rise in opposition. For you all not to exemplifies the moral bankruptcy peculiar to your side. All the smoke-screens about how the republicans are worse on issues A, B, and C won't change that.

by Paul Goodman on Mon Mar 21, 2005 at 09:19:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

There is a conceivable reason (none / 0)

There is no concievable necessity in withholdoing food from this woman. None.

I think you are forgetting the most obvious conceivable reason. Namely, Terri Schiavo herself did not want to be left in this condition. Given the truth of that (which is debatable I realize) then to my mind her wishes are being piously disregarded for political purposes. It's ugly and the ugliness rests with those who would ignore what Terri wanted for herself.

The problem of course, which I acknowledge, is that it's impossible now to know for certain if the husband is telling the truth about what she wanted. But that is what is at the heart of this case. If Terri wanted to not be left in a persistent vegetative state then her parents, Congress, and all the well-meaning (and many not so well-meaning) people who are trying to keep her alive are in fact doing her the greatest disservice imaginable by prolonging her life against her wishes.

by Curt Matlock on Mon Mar 21, 2005 at 11:17:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Libertarianism and family life (none / 0)

If my kid wanted to kill herself, I wouldn't acquiesce. How is T. Schiavo any different than a minor in her inability to make her own decisions. She had no living will. The claims of her husband are counterd by claims from her parents. As with the biblical story of Solomon, justice must rest with the party that favors life. The so-called husband has abrogated his vows. By common law, he is no longer T. Schiavo's spouse. Her custodial care reverts back to the family, and beyond that, to the state. I'll say it again: if our laws are such that technicalities can fob off horrors (which is what starving to death is) the law will break.

We had this big debate post election about values; no one cares. Until we have a modern Constantine that sweeps away Christianity it is the referent moral system in our society. Liberals must beware tossing its premises aside! The welfare state, limitations on rulers, respect for rights. These things rest upon irrational foundations; not law, not reason, not even the police. Undermine those irrational foundations and condemn the world to a conflagaration heretofore unseen.

by Paul Goodman on Mon Mar 21, 2005 at 03:00:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libertarianism and family life (none / 0)

How is T. Schiavo any different than a minor in her inability to make her own decisions?

Terri Schiavo is different in that she allegedly did not want to be left in a vegetative state. According to polls on the subject that is a value shared by most Americans. That's why it's not hard to believe Michael is faithfully trying to follow her wishes by allowing her to die when hope of intellect and recovery is lost.

My comment in response to your post was prompted by your categorical statement that there was "no conceivable necessity in withholding food". I believe you were overly strident and so I wanted to point out your error in overlooking the obvious conceivable reason to withhold food, namely, that Terri may well have wished it that way.

But, I won't argue the point about the husbands right to decide from a frame that describes Michael Schiavo as Terri's "so-called" husband. If you feel that way there's no point in continuing down that line.

The problem with this case is the lack of clear instructions from Terri. That's why I will not presume to determine who is right and who is wrong beyond pointing out that a great attempt must be made to follow Terri's wishes, instead of those of her husband or her family.

by Curt Matlock on Mon Mar 21, 2005 at 05:16:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Then the constitution is wrong (none / 0)

The thinking part of Terri's brain is liquid. We are keeping what's left of her alive with a nutrition slurry shot directly into her stomach. How in the world is this humane??

Paul, I can't even begin to address your "then the Constitution is wrong" statement. Hopefully, the federal judge will show more respect for our laws than our lawmakers in Congress.

by bellarose on Mon Mar 21, 2005 at 11:36:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

A person is more than cognition (none / 0)

When we refer to a person legally or rhetorically, are we referring only to their neo-cortex? Without browbeating you with the amazing non-locality of personality within the brain and body, I assert that there is a sizable and valuable "chunk" of humanity in Terry even without her neo-cortex functioning normally.

To me it is simple. There is no compelling reason for her to die, discussions of her past wishes are moot in this case, for she has reverted to the legal condition of a dependent, a "minor" if you will. Thus the state can and should intervene on her behalf.

I've posted before on our "throw away" mentality. I despise that mentality, especially as it applies to people. Just like with the poor, minorities, and other groups, liberals should be leading the charge to protect innocent and vulnerable people from being ground down by economic and political so-called "logic".

by Paul Goodman on Mon Mar 21, 2005 at 02:44:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I think Dems are playing this smart (none / 0)

Terry died fifteen years ago Hugh. My guess is that over 95% of Americans want to make these decisions themselves.

Do you want Congress making these decisions for your family? If you and your wife made one decision, would it be OK if Congress decided to change that decision?

This is fascism, pure and simple. This is way beyond any power granted by the Constitution over individual citizens.

by Gary Boatwright on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 11:43:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Rep. John Lewis Rocks! (none / 0)

Why are we called here tonight to play God Mr. Speaker? Leadership must lead! Tonight leadership is a tail-light. This is walking where angels fear to tread. This is not about values or religion. It is a political game with the election in mind. GOPers a sliding down the slippery slope of hypocrisy.

If we believe in individual freedom and the right to privacy, we must get out of the way. Our conscience and our God demand it.

Mr. Speaker, is it possible for us to let this woman take her leave in peace?

by Gary Boatwright on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 10:38:03 PM EST

No one's life is being saved. (none / 0)

This woman has no cortex. hence she has no self.

Trust me. I know more about this than you do.

by Teaser on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 11:03:00 PM EST

Just heard Sonja Gupta on CNN (none / 0)

He really helped clear away a lot of the fog
she really is in a permanent vegatative state.
Majority of her brain is mush...her brain stem
still operates and does basic things dealing
with sleep cycle...reflexes...etc.

With that being said I think she should be
turned over to the parents who really want
to believe what they believe but don't push
this agenda of she can be rehabilitated crap
on the rest of us.Basically they would be
taking care of a partially brain dead person
for the rest of their lives. As for Michael
since we are sooooooo involved with this
private matter like a soap opera..should he
just admit he really is married to another
woman and has a new family(two kids) and consider
the fact that justifys a common law divorce.

How the democrats can win on this...is to
promote living wills...promote privacy laws
...promote taxing right to lifers who would
surely be willing to pay for all nonambulatory
care in this country. If bush attacks expose
him, put a big microscopoe on the texas law he
signed into law.

A lot of important news this week and it has
come to this.

I think we all feel we been thrust into this

big soap opera tragedy. I hope the republicans

pay a price for it.

by Aslanspal on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 11:32:11 PM EST

Re: Playing Satan? (none / 0)

How do you kill a corpse Hugh? Are you brain dead? Perhaps we should introduce a bill in Congress to decide if you are alive or dead. Republicans don't care what you and your doctor have to say about it.

Would you agree to abide by the decision of Congress about whether or not you are brain dead Hugh?

by Gary Boatwright on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 11:45:23 PM EST

Re: Playing Satan? (1.00 / 1)

Double posting is a sign of the onset of a persistent vegetative state Hugh. Should we introduce legislation in Congress to determine if you are brain dead?

You've already convinced me that you don't have a brain. I'm sure you could convince Congress as well if they allowed you to testify.

by Gary Boatwright on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 11:47:15 PM EST

Re: Playing Satan? (none / 0)

LOL - HappyBuddah - you crack me up. Good night.

by neolib on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 11:53:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The termites come out of the wood work (none / 0)

The religious right have been working this case for a long time. They hoodwinked the Fla legislature into creating a law that was unconstitutional from the get-go:

<<"A massive campaign by religious conservatives across the country pressured lawmakers and Gov. Jeb Bush to step in and save her. The Legislature passed a hastily crafted law on Oct. 21 [2003], and her feeding tube was reinserted that evening. ... Senate President Jim King gave in to pressure and supported the legislation. Now he's sorry he did.

"The Terri Schiavo vote that I made was probably one of the worst votes that I've ever done," said the Jacksonville Republican and 18- year veteran of the Legislature. ... King spoke of the "unbelievable" pressure to help Schiavo, his worries about being blamed for Schiavo's death and his regret that he didn't show more backbone."

King said other senators who voted for the Schiavo law have told him they also regret it, but the pressure of tens of thousands of phone calls and e-mails - and physical and political threats - was enormous.

"After the vote there were far more people critical of what we had done and very vehemently angry at what we had done than there were people supporting it," King said.

A Times poll in December found two-thirds of Florida voters opposed the Schiavo law.

There is "no question" he would not vote that way today, King said, "and if it comes up again I will not do it.">>

From:
http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/sptimes/access/542995351.html?FMT=FT&FMTS=FT&date=Feb+10%2C+2004 &author=ADAM+C.+SMITH&desc=Regret+plagues+King+after+Schiavo+vote

And in the current Fla legislature now in session, they have NOT done it despite the same type of pressure. Thank God, they learned their lesson.

Let's hope the Dems can keep the Repubs feet in the fire on this so that the Repubs can learn their lesson in the 2006 Congressinal elections.

by sawgrass727 on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 11:54:37 PM EST

Re: Democrats the Death Party? (none / 0)

I am a pro-life Democrat too and I see the whole thing as a shameless spectacle. I think Terri should be kept alive. But when scumbags like Tom DeLay try to parade her in front of the House chamber so everybody can drool over her lifeless face, I have to say I've had enough. Remember, the Repubican Party is not pro-life and never has been. Until they reject the death penalty and begin to see war as a last, rather than first resort, and support practices that encourage the increase in abortions (anti-contraceptive education) they will always be the death party.

by elrod on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 11:56:20 PM EST

Can anyone explain why this passed the Senate? (none / 0)

How did this sail through the Senate so quickly? Why couldn't Senate Dems have a little debate on this?

Do I hear the sound of chickens clucking?

by Gary Boatwright on Mon Mar 21, 2005 at 12:01:55 AM EST

Woman and Middle America (none / 0)

I don't see this as that much of a gender issue. But as for middle America, I might be the only one saying it but I think it's going to backfire. Yes, the hard core right is digging this and yes this will, maybe, get them out in force in '06 but there were plenty of tricks the GOP could use to make sure that happened anyway. And it would have been a whole lot quieter. But it won't be enough to offset the old people who by next year are going to be completely sick of this new Republican party. Activistic, federalist and obnoxious. That's suppossed to be the Dems.

I just wish the Dems would stop trying to pretend that they could make a bit of difference here.

Now, as for you Hugh, if this is such a non-political issue for you but so emotional etc. etc. just what exactly are you doing spouting off on what I've always considered to be a rather politically oriented blog?

by Welsh on Mon Mar 21, 2005 at 12:12:59 AM EST

It is all clear to me now. (none / 0)

The Anti-Christ arrived just as expected on the 2000 millenium. It's Bush himself, masquerading as a man of God when he really serves evil. Also predicted were all the multitudes who'd blindly follow him.

That shit is downright creepy.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/

by Vote Hillary 2008 on Mon Mar 21, 2005 at 02:46:51 AM EST

McCain is a whore (none / 0)

"Even the erstwhile honest politician McCain has gotten into the act."

You should put "honest politician" in quotes. Every time one of my Dem friends start spouting off how McCain isn't as bad as the other Republicans I will show them the picture of McCain hugging Bush before the last election. McCain is a whore.

"Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." -- Denis Diderot

by Stoic on Mon Mar 21, 2005 at 08:54:45 AM EST

Re: McCain is a whore (none / 0)

I agree. How can McCain still want to be associated with the freaky Right wing of their party? After all the disgusting things they did to him in the 2000 primaries. It makes you wonder.

by neolib on Mon Mar 21, 2005 at 12:40:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: McCain is a whore (none / 0)

He'll need the Fundie vote and thus far, he hasn't sufficiently pandered.

I fully expect to see him hugging Randall Terry before all is said and done.

Whore? Oh, yes!

by bellarose on Mon Mar 21, 2005 at 01:19:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: McCain is a whore (none / 0)

You know it is interesting. In August and early September last year, it seemed like McCain was genuinely helping us by opposing many of the administration initiatives and the handling of the war. You know what I mean, he would be sitting next to Biden on Sunday and agreeing that there were major mistakes, etc.

Then someone got to him and whispered, I will let come on Air Force 1, fly around with me and talk on the campaign trail. And then all of a sudden there he was saying the exact opposite or Flip-Flopping on what he originally said. I am shaking my head - politicians!

by neolib on Mon Mar 21, 2005 at 06:52:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Listening to extremists will kill the GOP (none / 0)

It undid the Dems, and it will undo the GOP.

Americans gravitate toward the center. The only people who ever get things done permanently are those who move the center (FDR, LBJ, Reagan). Ironically, these people are often the object of extreme revile.

Bush is not able to move the center like Reagan did. That much is clear. He has simply found the right-wing of Reagan's center and settled down there because it delivers sure votes.

However, if Dems clean up their act on the gun issue and taxes, 3% isn't a hell of a lot to swing.

The GOP is beginning to show itself. Its civil war is starting, and its leaders are unable to stop it.

We will be able to paint the GOP as extremists. We need to start working over the extremist Christians, and we need to start exposing their agenda and its strangely antichristianic tone.

These are some fucked up Christians. Americans won't tolerate that for long.

Americans always gravitate back to the center.

by jcjcjc on Mon Mar 21, 2005 at 10:24:10 AM EST

Re: Listening to extremists will kill the GOP (none / 0)

I completely agree with jcjcjc.

A few things, W is staying home in Right Wing because the Born Agains are delivering the votes. They did in Ohio. I think it was 70% of Ohioans declared themselves Born Again.

You are right about Reagan, he was able to move to the center, partially because of Nancy. At least the Reagan family produced off-spring that can think. Ron Reagan is doing a great job, he is welcome in this party, any time. As for the W children, they seem like they will continue the Daddy's drinking ways. But, I guess being Born Again obsolves you of your past.

by neolib on Mon Mar 21, 2005 at 12:46:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Bush Dynasty (none / 0)

Is beginning to look like it will find a downward spiral that makes the Kennedys look sane.

The third generation make the second generation look upstanding. And that's pretty good when 2dGen Bushies do things like give a wife an STD they got from a corporate whore (literal, a whore employed by a corporation) during a business trip to Thailand.

What the Bushies need is a JFK, Jr. Someone the fundies can oogle and awe over.

Right now, they don't have it.

Plus, I am absolutely convinced that Jeb wants no part of any of this. I think he is genuinely out. Done.

Why? I think he's a sincere and intelligent person. He doesn't want any part of being dragged face-first through the cow shit the W's been through.

W's a schmuck and a puppet. He's used to the smell of shit.

BTW -- are we all still working hard to remember Poland? I am.

by jcjcjc on Mon Mar 21, 2005 at 02:17:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bush Dynasty (none / 0)

Yup, there is no question that family under HW does not look so great and gets worse the further down you go. There was no greater reminder of this during the last election watching Kerry's kids talk so eloquently on major issues and actually affect campaigns. True the Bush girls are a little young, but still.

As for Jeb or as Jib-Jab says, Jebediah, he has an ugly stain with many Moderates in his handing the election to his younger Bro in 2000. I would not count him out, though. The Bush World is a proud political family. They've done a great job at screwing up the country and letting us Dems fix it. If it were not for HW and Iraq 1 - we would not have had the information age. So, thanks HW.

By Poland, do you mean the rise of the Nazis? Never forget what happened.

by neolib on Mon Mar 21, 2005 at 06:41:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bush Dynasty (none / 0)

Don't you remember Bush's "you forgot Poland" quip to Kerry?

I thought it was the definitive W moment.

by jcjcjc on Mon Mar 21, 2005 at 11:44:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Listening to extremists will kill the GOP (none / 0)

Hugh, awesome, a point of agreement. As a Neo-Liberal, I am coming from a conservative base of thought. As a stock broker I believe in being fiscally conservative, pro growth-jobs creation and without ballooning the deficit. And government growth should be curtailed but not at the expense of important programs, as they are in the current budget.

As for right to life issues, I do not think that the Democrats loose on this at all. I believe that the biggest looser is the Process. We have just reversed 200+ years of tradition. Our wonderful country is not looking like the Democracy I grew up with - even during the Reagan years, Democrats were given more leeway in Congress. At least Amendments were not voted down on clearly ideological partisan lines.

We will have a lot of work ahead of us to reverse what Bush has done. Roll back the Tax Breaks, take major corrective measures to reduce the Debt and work internationally to reduce or Trade Deficits. Why isn't Condie working China over in this regard?

by neolib on Mon Mar 21, 2005 at 06:33:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Listening to extremists will kill the GOP (none / 0)

With respect to death-obsessed and death-dealing weirdos, you have the wrong party. In the last 2 years, no one disputes that the US has helped kill 100,000 iraqis. That is a 136 dead per day Average. That is the great war machine of the Neo-Cons and Bush.

by neolib on Mon Mar 21, 2005 at 06:43:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Listening to extremists will kill the GOP (none / 0)

I'm pro-life. But, there's a point where the courts have to make a final ruling in the Schiavo case.

The legal system has long been clear who gets to make this decision absent a will.

I wish the husband would make a better decision, but legally it is his to make.

by jcjcjc on Mon Mar 21, 2005 at 11:46:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

BTW -- what is pro-life?! (none / 0)

For example, I personally oppose terminating oneself prematurely, but I think it;s your right if it suits you.

On the other hand, abortion is not your choice, IMO, because it violates the right to a choice on the part of the aborted. And that's where the Schiavo case bothers me.

My mother has us all sworn to terminate her if she's ever like that, and I would follow through without hesitation. But, I would want to fight in the same situation.

I think that's a very fundamental human right.

So . . . what counts as pro-life? Should I mindlessly force others to fight on when they don;t want to?

I don't like that.

by jcjcjc on Mon Mar 21, 2005 at 11:52:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Theo-cons Jesus (3.00 / 0)

Image hosted by Photobucket.com

Besides telling us how to live, think, marry, pray, vote, invest, educate our children and, die, the GOP has done a fine job of getting gov't out of our lives.

by Parker on Mon Mar 21, 2005 at 03:30:48 PM EST

You are not logged in.

In order to post a comment, you must be logged in. If you have a member account, please log in to comment.

If not, you can make an account right here. It's quick and free.