Democratic party just committed suicide!

From the diaries, since there is nothing quite like seeing the Dean-o-phone squirm--Chris

Jonathan Chait has an intriguing editorial in the L.A. Times, A Suicidal Selection: With Dean as party chairman, the Democrats wouldn't need enemies.

Are Democrats suicidally crazy? Wait. That's too easy. Let me rephrase the question. Why are Democrats suicidally crazy?

Chait has done us the service of clearly expressing all of the reasons the DLC centrists were/are opposed to Dean.  Chait also demonstrates that, like a lot of well informed commentators, doesn't understand the Dean phenomenon.  First, Chait recycles the conventional wisdom of what Democrats need to do to win elections; appeal to culturally traditional voters who "worry about the party's commitment to national "security." That was the assumption that compelled Pelosi and Reid to put Roemer forward as the ABD candidate; an assumption that Jerome and Chris have thoroughly discredited.

Next, Chait recycles the stereotypical complaints against Dean.

Dean, with his intense secularism, arrogant style, throngs of high-profile counterculture supporters and association with the peace movement, is the precise opposite of the image Democrats want to send out. The conventional rap is completely right. But, in a way, Dean is even less suited to run the DNC than he is to run for president.

Well, if you accept Chait's, and O'Reilly's, assumptions about Dean, the Democratic party is certainly in trouble. Chait is lining up with Dick Morris, Hugh Hewitt and Peter Beinart to save us from outselves.

Chait provides his DNC chair job description:

The DNC chairman has two main jobs. First, he transmits the party's message -- an important role when the party lacks a president and majority leaders in Congress. This job requires one to master the dismal art of "message discipline," boiling down the party's ideas into a few simple phrases and repeating them over and over until they have sunk into the public consciousness.

Funny, that's exactly what I think Dean can accomplish very well, but I don't recall Terry McAuliffe being particularly effective at getting "the message" out to the public consciousness. Nonetheless, Chait concludes that Dean is "particularly ill suited" for this task.

For presidential candidates, the negatives of "straight talk" usually outweigh the positives. Paul Maslin, Dean's former pollster, wrote in the Atlantic Monthly after the campaign fell apart: "Our candidate's erratic judgment, loose tongue, and overall stubbornness wore our spirits down." But at least for a presidential campaign there are some positives in going off message. In a job like party chairman, a loose cannon is nothing but downside.

If you can't trust Democratic insiders to tear down your best people, who can you trust? Does the name Zephyr Teachout ring a bell? Is it possible that the DLC inspired attacks by Gephardt and others wore down the campaign's spirits? Nevertheless, Chait barrels forward with his conclusion that Dean is a loose cannon and proceeds to the managerial job description for DNC chair.

The second major task of the DNC chairman is to run the party organization. And here, if this is at all possible, Dean looks even worse. Garance Franke-Ruta, who wrote sympathetic Dean pieces in the American Prospect during the campaign, spoke with several former Dean staffers. One called the candidate "a horrible manager" and added, "I wouldn't trust him to run a company." Another called his management style "just a disaster."

Several former Dean staffers are disgruntled with Dean's management style. The DNC chair should be a disciplinarian. That's what we need. A Ross Perot type who runs a button downed tight fisted operation. A top down micro-manager who runs a tight ship. Perhaps a Yale graduate with an MBA who brooks no dissent in the ranks?

Next Chait reminds us that Dean was reckless with his war chest.  "Dean, remember, raised about $50 million by positioning himself as the most anti-Bush candidate, but blew through it so fast that he was nearly broke by January." I'll let others address the bookkeeping details. If Dean had not been sabatoged by the DLC, he would have had the nomination locked up after New Hampshire. Whatever errors of judgment Dean made about spending campaign contributions, was exacerbated by underestimating the irrational lengths the DLC centrists were and still are willing to go to take down a threat to their power base.

Chait also takes a shot at the grass/netroots:

So, how did Dean manage to trounce all comers for this position? Dean's supporters see his triumph as the victory of the masses over a tiny Democratic elite desperately trying to cling to power. As one left-liberal blogger gloated: "The fact that Howard Dean will most likely be heading up the Democratic Party is our victory. It is the voice of the grass roots lifted up into the halls of power once owned by the 'aristocracy of consultants.' " That actually has it backward. A recent Wall Street Journal poll found that only 27% of Democrats approve of Dean.

"Only" 27% of Democrats approve of Dean? Or "only" 27% of Democrats are wildly enthusiastic about Dean? Did anybody even bother to poll how popular Terry McAuliffe was with the Democrats? Were any of the remaining 73% capable of naming even one other candidate for DNC chair? How many Texas democrats did the WSJ poll? Does it make any difference to Chait that the 27% who support Dean are the foot soldiers, activists and muscle of the Democratic party, as well as its heart and soul?

Chait saves his most ludicrous mischaracterization for last:

In the latest issue of the New Republic, Ryan Lizza described how Dean had prevailed in a process of third-rate intrigue. The choosing of the DNC chairman has been dominated by state parties, whose concerns revolve around expanding perks, including a demand for a $200,000 handout for each state party from the national party. Nobody seemed to pay much attention to the good of the party as a whole. Meanwhile, Dean touched those leaders' ideological erogenous zones, promising to "feed our core constituencies" and not be "Republican-lite."

Chait stands reality on its head. Dean prevailed in a process of third rate intrigue? How about Dean prevailed in spite of the DLC's process of third rate intrigue. The good of the state parties may not be  exactly identical to the good of the party as a whole, but a commitment to minimum funding for the state party in each state is a profound commitment to the good of the party as a whole. For unstated, sinister reasons, "feeding our core constituencies" instead of pandering to sensible centrists is bad, very bad.

As the last election showed, the core constituencies are plenty well fed. There just aren't enough of them to win the White House.

Is that what the last election showed? Wow! Somebody should tell Ruy Teixera to stop wasting his time analyzing the last election, not to mention the forty political forecasters Jerome and Chris have links to on this very site.


Display:


Chait (none / 0)

I always thought his Dean-o-phobe thing made him a finalist for wanker of the year in 2004. However, right now I'm just glad that we won and he is left to whine.
by Chris Bowers on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 12:52:15 PM EST

Re: Chait (none / 0)

I'm relieved Dean will have the opportunity to prove the quivering centrists wrong.

Let the loose cannon thunder.

by Gary Boatwright on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 01:01:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Silent Cannons (3.00 / 3)

I'll take a loose cannon over a cannon with no balls anyday.
by Curt Matlock on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 01:06:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Chris (3.00 / 1)

I suggested this on Kos...its time for the Chait "The New Republic"(ans) Memorial DNC Fund. Anyone who has a subscription to TNR, wait until the 12th, cancel and donate the value to the DNC. Tell your friends.

I wonder if little privileged boy Chait will keep the snotty elitism when he has to scramble for a real job like everyone else.

by ElitistJohn on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 07:08:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

But! But! But!!! (3.00 / 2)

Funny, that's exactly what I think Dean can accomplish very well, but I don't recall Terry McAuliffe being particularly effective at getting "the message" out to the public consciousness.

McAuliffe was very effective.  The the primary message was: "Send money." The secondary message was "Don't call us. We'll call you."

Chait stands reality on its head. Dean prevailed in a process of third rate intrigue? How about Dean prevailed in spite of the DLC's process of third rate intrigue.

No, Chait is chargined to realize that his crowd could only manage 4th-rate intrigue. Although, looking more closely the numbers, it looks more likely to be 5th-rate intrigue. It all depends on the metric you use. Is it log base 10?

by Paul Rosenberg on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 01:07:20 PM EST

Re: But! But! But!!! (3.00 / 1)

As you can see, diaries don't last as long as they once did. Maybe Jerome and Chris should bring back the recommend list. I'm not sure why they took it down. If Chris updates the MyDD bookclub section, we are having a book club discussion of America, Right or Wrong next week? Descrates wrote a diary that was loosely based on the ideas in Leivins book.
by Gary Boatwright on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 01:31:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Balls (none / 0)

I'll take a loose cannon over a cannon with no balls anyday.

AMEN! Well said, as usual!

KB

Katherine Brengle Massachusetts
by Katherine Brengle on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 01:32:03 PM EST

Re: Balls (none / 0)

Cannons use iron balls. And this "loose" one of ours has a spine of iron, also.
by rodean on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 01:39:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Great post (none / 0)

Small comment -- Chait's piece is an op-ed, not an editorial.  
by lojo on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 01:38:33 PM EST

Re: Great post (none / 0)

I thought Op Ed described editorials of the paper as opposed to editorials by independent commentators.
by Gary Boatwright on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 02:16:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

My personal favorite . . . (3.00 / 1)

. . . part of this

Dean, with his . . . throngs of high-profile counterculture supporters

Break out the dictionary!

Counterculture (def'n): A group that strongly rejects dominant societal values and norms and seeks alternative lifestyles.

Questions:

"Reject dominant societal values"??? Is Dean leading some hippie commune of long-haired organic wacky weed farmers?

Given that Bush was (a) an alcohol and drug abuser and (b) a draft dodger, and thus has "acid" and "amnesty" covered (don't know about "abortion," but hell, 2 out of 3 ain't bad), why doesn't he get labeled as part of the CC?

Is Chait getting his talking points from Newt Gingrich?

Would somebody please explain to me how a centrist fiscally responsible governor who spent some part of his time in office fending off the "big liberals" in Vermont get labeled as part of the "counterculture"?

Black is white. Up is down. The sky is green (although some reality-denying Democrats claim it's blue).

by tgeraghty on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 01:41:05 PM EST

This idiot just cut and pasted from the DLC blog (none / 0)

www.bullmooseblog.com :
suicidal predilection that explains this positive development.

www.bullmooseblog.com :

They are perceived by many in the heartland as northeastern elitists who believe that southerners all drive pick-up trucks adorned with confederate flags.

There is more of this drivel.

It is clear that Al From would rather see the Demcoratic Party die instead of giving up his corporate meal ticket

Besides telling us how to live, think, marry, pray, vote, invest, educate our children and, die, the GOP has done a fine job of getting gov't out of our lives.
by Parker on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 03:32:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The DLC is the Clintons and the Clintons love Wes (none / 0)

So I don't see any problem with the DLC.  They are probably right about Dean anyway.  I just have never liked him.  I am glad he might win the chairmanship, cause now Clark will have an easier time getting the nomination in 2008.
by Wesgal on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 06:39:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The DLC is the Clintons and the Clintons love Wes (none / 0)

Well, I think your political alignment should be based--as much as I admire the man--on more than just approval of Wesley Clark.  
by descrates on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 09:40:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My personal favorite . . . (none / 0)

The dominant societal value of the Washington DC Democratic Party is that losing is fine as long as the "right" people are in charge. and the "right" consultants are getting their check.  That's what makes us counterculture -- we want to win.
by ogondai on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 03:37:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My personal favorite . . . (none / 0)

Exactly right they -DLC care more about their right leaning ideology and who is in charge than they do about winning.

Their perspective has become the conventional wisdom both for the Washington DC DP establishment and for all of the conventional media who cover them.

These people are killing the Democratic Party and their political and economic views are not what people want AND they are killing off the constituencies needed for a strong Democratic Party.

by leschwartz on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 04:31:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Well (none / 0)

with Democrats like this who needs Republicans.

Where is the Kentucky Kid? Are you still a proud member of the DLC?

Besides telling us how to live, think, marry, pray, vote, invest, educate our children and, die, the GOP has done a fine job of getting gov't out of our lives.
by Parker on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 02:05:28 PM EST

Dean for the long term (3.00 / 1)

I suppose this is the underlying feeling of Dean supporters and MYDD aficionados. I can't be sure because many are too caught up in the knife fight to keep there eyes on the long term.

The long term means you can lose a few elections if that is what it takes to redefine the party. I take umbrage with the notion of "suicide" because the real suicide is the visionless status-quo of the party hacks.

What are the important issues in the long term? Maintainace of the welfare state. The environment. Population growth. Dwindling resources. Technology. As of this moment the democrats are way out in front of the Republicans on these issues.

The problem is that issues that have no long term significance divert people's attention. Often these issues are losing ones for democrats because they cannot play chess very well. Its OK to give in on certain issues like abortion and gay rights in order to return working class whites to the party. Dr. Dean hinted at that strategy before, and I would love for him to come out of the chute firing on that theme.

by Paul Goodman on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 02:05:30 PM EST

Re: Dean for the long term (none / 0)

Amen, brother.  To paraphrase the Joker in the "Batman" movie--"This Party needs an enema!"  A few more lost elections will be fine, as long as we reestablish our principles and demonstrate our integrity.
by paul minot on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 03:48:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Maintenence of the Welfare State? (none / 0)

Reframe that a bit would ja?

How about "Attention to the Public's Best Interests"?

RMD

The W.astrel's War. Fought with our blood and his 'guts'.
by RedMeatDem on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 05:25:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dean for the long term (none / 0)

Actually, I see this as more of a short term move--and a very good one at that.  IMHO, the long term stuff has less to do with us and more to do with them.
by descrates on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 09:42:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dean for the long term (none / 0)

Don't call it the "welfare state"!  It's the "safety net."
by tarzanne on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 10:31:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

They write this shit so that the next time (3.00 / 1)

Dean goes on MTP Russert can flash a multicolored PowerPoint up on the screen with these lies and make Dean spend half of his time rebuking supposed Democrats remarks about their doubts about him.
Besides telling us how to live, think, marry, pray, vote, invest, educate our children and, die, the GOP has done a fine job of getting gov't out of our lives.
by Parker on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 02:07:55 PM EST

Re: They write this shit so that the next time (none / 0)

I just had this image of a monkey in a cage at the zoo picking up his feces and throwing it at the patrons.
543,895 votes
by Michael Bersin on Sat Feb 05, 2005 at 07:25:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

butttttttt (none / 0)

The conventional rap is completely right.

Whenever I read that, I get ready for a bunch of bs to be thrown down as fact.

Dean gets a bad rap for management of his campaign, gmafb.

Dean had a force of 600K individuals and operations in 15 states to build up in a matter of months, making sure that the money was raised in the mean time. You know, what Hart had happen in Jan of '84, or McCain had happen in Feb of '00, is what Dean had happen for 6 months of '03.

All indications from inside VT, during his reign as GOV, was that he was a good manager, good enough for the Democratic Party to put him in charge of the DGA, good enough for the Governors to put him in charge of the NGA. He'll do great things with the DNC.

by Jerome Armstrong on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 03:02:16 PM EST

Re: butttttttt (none / 0)

It is all about that effin' war.  

Thats what Chait, Beinart et al are talking about.  In their minds, a "moderate" supports that war.  If you oppose that war, you're an extremist.  To be competent on national security, you have to support that war.  

by Rowena on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 03:16:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: butttttttt (none / 0)

A moderate understands the reasons why one might want to go to war in Iraq.  An extream anti-war liberal doesn't.

If you say there was no reason to go into Iraq then you are a Hack.  That said you don't have to agree with the reasons being worth the cost.  (many use the phrase no reason when they mean not worth it but some really think there are no reasons)

Reasons:

  1.  Arab Muslim group with large support in majority of Suni Arab Muslim countries attacks America.  Striking back at a Sunni-Arab country serves a purpose.

  2.  Saddam as an individual has defied the US.  There is a logic to knocking down those who defy your authority when you are relying on that authority to defend against terrorists.

  3.  Iraq had clear universally accepted ties to terrorists who attack Israel.  Attacking supporters of Terrorism has a purpose.

  4.  Iraq is near Syria and Iran which are the main supporter of Terrorism in the world.  Being in a position to threaten projecting force into Iran and Seria has a purpose.

  5.  Installing democracy in non-democratic nations protects against extreamist groups.  Being seen as the bringer of freedom in the middle east has a purpose.

  6.  Iraq has oil.  Having two seperate oil bearing nations frees us from needing Saudia Arabia.  Being free of Saudia Arabia has a purpose.

  7.  America has a massive conventional military.  Being able to demonstrate that military against a major power is a valid way to demonstrate our abilities against countries who support or might support terrorists against us.

by donkeykong on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 07:57:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: butttttttt (none / 0)

A moderate understands the reasons why one might want to go to war in Iraq.

  1. Greed
  2. Political expediency
  3. Oedipal complex
  4. All arabs are the same

am i missing anything?
by benjoya on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 08:47:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: butttttttt (none / 0)

That may have been Bush's primary motivation.  But there exist real reasons which is why so many democrats voted in favor of it.
by donkeykong on Sat Feb 05, 2005 at 01:40:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

USELESS (none / 0)

Stop responding to this fool.
by matt w on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 11:14:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: butttttttt (none / 0)

A true conservative would demand that the Constitution (hint: read Aticle VI) be held above all else.

A reactionary right wing extremist would say this:

...."the Ledeen Doctrine" of ex-Pentagon official Michael Ledeen.... "Every ten years or so, the United States needs to pick up some small crappy little country and throw it against the wall, just to show we mean business...."

http://www.amconmag.com/03_24_03/cover.html

An enabler for dubya's administration would just uncritically list their ever changing number of excuses.

543,895 votes
by Michael Bersin on Sat Feb 05, 2005 at 07:37:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: butttttttt (none / 0)

Dean mismanaged the message of his campaign.

The money you can hire people for.

The message is the candidates responsibility

by donkeykong on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 07:44:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Dean, the Anti-Dean and their supporters. (2.00 / 2)

The thing that will be interesting is who gets elected to the DNC.  I can see three possibilities.

  1.  The DLC has the votes and they are trying to shake lose the Dean supporters by breaking their hearts.  This is possible but IMO very unlikely at this stage.  Were it to happen the Dem party would shrink and have to redefine itself as a more center party with a splinter Green party getting maybe 10-15% of the total vote.

  2.  Dean will win.  He will then rule as the Deaniacs think he will rule.  The party will not grow and he will be unsuccesful and the lets move left movement will die.

  3.  Dean will win.  He will then rule in an inclusive manner.  His remarks about being open to the gun toting guys in the south being a clue.  This will IMO introduce an interesting dicotomy.  

The deaniacs IMO are not a very inclusive bunch.  By that I mean that they don't really want the south gun toting white male in the Dem party if that means that the Dem party will be a place where that person feels at home.

So what will happen if Dean turns out to be the anti-Dean?

From what I can see the values of the DLC win in all three senarios.  The Dem party WILL move to the center where the votes are.

by donkeykong on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 03:06:55 PM EST

Re: Dean, the Anti-Dean and their supporters. (3.00 / 2)

As a gun-toting white southerner and 7th generation Texas who started backing Dean in November 2002 I can only say: you're wrong.

Dean has a special appeal to red state democrats cause he's a fighter and he calls 'em like he sees 'em.

He opposed a stupid, strategically misguided war when few others had the guts. That doesn't make him a leftist. The Deaniacs know this.

I hope the surprise is a pleasant one for you.

by Texas Nate on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 04:04:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dean, the Anti-Dean and their supporters. (none / 0)

I saw your new Kinky candidate for governor being interviewed and liked what I heard. I couldn't pin down his ideology and only caught a part of the piece, but he sounded like somebody I could vote for.
by Gary Boatwright on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 04:07:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dean, the Anti-Dean and their supporters. (none / 0)

Dean will get respect from red state voters, especially men, even if they don't agree with him.

The Republicans played on the anti-gay prejudices of many Americans. Not with the Marriage Amendments, but with Kerry and Edwards themselves. Kerry was portrayed as a French, botox, boy-toy, ghirlie mahn. For all Kerry's blasting away at God's creation, the gun lobby showed Kerry's hunting dog as a very dainty poodle. As for Edwards, they turned the very bright attorney and senator into just another pretty face with nice hair. In other words, the right wing attack machine all but called the Democratic ticket a couple of sissies. What do you think was the REAL purpose of the not-so-Swift Boat Vets? It was so the right wing could turn Kerry's very courageous three Purple Hearts into mere band-aids and discount his other medals.

I don't think they could have gotten away with that with Dean. Nor do I think Dean would let anyone question the toughness of Democratic candidates without a serious response.

by wayward on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 09:14:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dean, the Anti-Dean and their supporters. (none / 0)

Texas Nate is right. What is part of Dean's appeal was his fighting spirit. I am a free trade, pro charter school, conflicted about late term abortion(yeah I know that's not a real medical term) independent who leans democrat because of the social inclusiveness.

I would be what the DLC thinks would be their main supporter. But guess what, ours is a capitalistic economy that no president can make socialist. FOr me honesty, and a do whatever it takes approach is more important. And Dean seems to be willing to use that approach. People in the democratic establishment and the mainstream media ARE STILL PERPETUATING the myth that Dean is a left wing looney. You ever notice these idiots like Beinart never run down a list of Dean's stances when they put out such a simplistic portrait of him.

And why doesn't anyone point out that when the press attacks Dean as impulsive and divisive, he and Clark were the only also rans to campaign really hard for Kerry. What the hell did Lieberman do for Kerry? Dean had the most reason to give a big fuck you to the powers that be and run as a third party candidate pretty much rendering Kerry DOA for the general election. Isn't that a sign that Dean is a lot more mature than the Dem establishment? Why does not anyone point this out?

And let me reiterate. Why doesn't anyone point out that Bush won despite exhibiting the traits that the media bashes Dean for. And Bush wasn't even honest.

by Pravin on Sun Feb 06, 2005 at 10:14:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

you're making the standard mistake (none / 0)

You're confusing Deaniac enthusiasm with being leftist, and Dean's strong positions with being leftist. Dean is and has always been a centrist. How many "ultra-liberal" politicians got an A rating from the NRA while in office?  How many were willing to cut services to balance a budget?  As a governor, Dean was a centrist's centrist.

And as a presidential candidate, he got labeled "leftist" for vocally opposing a war that, by any measure, has been an absolute disaster. Iraq has been the greatest American military failure since Vietnam, and the greatest foreign policy failure since i don't know when.

It's not about left vs center, though.  It's about reform vs status quo. Reformers WANT a big tent, whether they're leftist or centrist. We WANT those Southerners with the confederate flags on their pickup trucks in our party! Because you know what? They want good jobs and decent education for their children and affordable health care too!

Pave the Earth: One People, One Planet, One slab of asphalt
by fat lady singing on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 04:10:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No, you're making the standard mistake (2.00 / 1)

"It's not about left vs center, though.  It's about reform vs status quo. Reformers WANT a big tent, whether they're leftist or centrist. We WANT those Southerners with the confederate flags on their pickup trucks in our party! Because you know what? They want good jobs and decent education for their children and affordable health care too! "

It is about left vs center because those guys don't want to support Gay marriage, extream feminism or racial quotas.

Reform is often used to mean reform in the left direction.  Are you pro-reform when it means reform towards the center.  That is where the votes are.

by donkeykong on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 04:49:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Ah, this explains a lot (none / 0)

Ah, this explains a lot.

....Gay marriage, extream feminism or racial quotas....

What, Rush Limbaugh is in re-runs today?

543,895 votes
by Michael Bersin on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 05:59:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ah, this explains a lot (none / 0)

You can crawl into a hole or you can face facts.  Rush thinks the world is round, that doesn't make it flat.

Feminism-
We won.  Hetrosexual women are pretty much happy with what they got from the sexual revolution.  The remains of the "Feminist" movement are not the feminists of the 60s.  The feminists of the 60s won big time and the result is that most modern women are done with feminism because it has already delivered all they wanted from it.

Racism-
Same story.  Martin Luthor King were he alive would be greeted with 2 seperate Secretary of states, and Obama who are black and talked about as possible future US presidents.  It takes about 20 years to get a resume that is extensive enough for people to seriously mention you as a presidential candidate.  Which means that for the better part of a quarter century racism has not been strong enough to hold down good men and women.  Today it truely is education and to a lesser extent the internal culture of some American born Blacks that is holding them down.  Lets fix the education inequality WITHOUT mentioning color, which can be done.  When there is a black president (2016?) any internal cultural issues will resolve themselves if the education is present.

Gay marriage-
Just call it civil unions and you would have won almost all the "rights".  It was the insistance of the gay community that the straight MUST affirm the gay lifestyle as EQUAL and INDIFFERENT.  

The sexual habits of Gay couples and lesbian couples and striaght couples are different.  The monogamous likelyhood is different.  The odds of having children is different.  They are DIFFERENT.... Why can't we be honest about that?

by donkeykong on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 07:26:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

LoL (none / 0)

>We won.  Hetrosexual women are pretty much happy with what they got from the sexual revolution.  The remains of the "Feminist" movement are not the feminists of the 60s.  The feminists of the 60s won big time and the result is that most modern women are done with feminism because it has already delivered all they wanted from it.

Yeah. Right.

And all us women wanna thank you for everything.

Except, you might be interested that all those rights WE won are being eroded....women are not making progress in upper management, we still don't come close to parity in wages with men, the Bush administration isn't interested in our discrimination cases....and abortion and birth control are also in danger.

And oh by the way, racism is alive and well...

by nanorich on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 07:59:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: LoL (none / 0)

Women are making progress in the CEO thing.  See HP etc.

Women make slightly more money than men until they start to marry or have kids.  Women who never marry and never have kids are at parity.

So do company managers discriminate against married women or do women CHOOSE to not focus on their careers as much as their spouse once they are married or have kids?

Abortion and birth control are not in serious danger.  Day after pill might be but normal birth control is not.  Late term abortion may be in danger but first tri-mester is not.  

by donkeykong on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 08:15:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: LoL (none / 0)

Sorry, but until we have absolute parity in the CEO dept...on down, we haven't won.

That sound unreasonable to you.  Too bad.

And for every stay at home mom, is a single mom who wouldn't be too impressed with your rosy scenerio,either.

Actually late abortions are not effected.  Just more dangerous.

Goodbye...and thanks for playing.

by nanorich on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 08:26:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: LoL (none / 0)

There may be more male CEO's, but there are also more males in maximum security prisons.

You want parity there too?

IIRC, 57% of college students are female. Only 43% are male. Colleges are so full of women that Title IX is causing them to cut successful men's teams to comply.

The women's movement is a success. But not all women want what modern feminists want in order to achieve "parity". Women want the freedom to be what they want to be, whether it is head of a Fortune 500 company, or a wife and mother.

(Not all men want to be at the top either. I wouldn't want work my way up the corporate ladder to be a CEO. I have more important things in my life)

by wayward on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 08:37:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: LoL (none / 0)

<quote>IIRC, 57% of college students are female. Only 43% are male.</quote>

And you know what they're calling that?  A "crisis".  Schools are so panicky about the lack of males that they are bending over backwards to recruit them.  Yet women aren't allowed to feel panicky about wage discrepencies or entrenched good ol' boy networks?

by wilder on Sat Feb 05, 2005 at 12:45:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: LoL (none / 0)

Different schools have different male/female ratios.

Georgia Tech is business, engineering, and science. It is about 70% male. They are bending over backwards to get women.

On the other hand, the University of Georgia is about 60% female. They are bending over backwards to get women.

Both schools admit they have problems with their male/female ratio. Both schools want to get a more even ratio. The difference is that public doesn't notice it as much at Tech, because Tech has been overwhelmingly male since it opened.

Both schools are state institutions run by the University System of Georgia.

by wayward on Sat Feb 05, 2005 at 09:41:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: LoL (none / 0)

So why are you treating it as though women don't have a problem when it comes to college percentages?  The way you just described it, it looks as though there is a still a big problem with traditionally male schools and professions.
by wilder on Sat Feb 05, 2005 at 03:10:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: LoL (none / 0)

The University of Georgia is the flagship school of the State of Georgia. It's not exactly a "women's college"

I don't know why women don't want to go to Georgia Tech, but it isn't because they aren't welcomed. It's probably because the curriculum offered at Tech is not what most women are interested in.

At my alma mater, Clemson University, Electrical Engineering is overwhemingly male. Elementary Education is overwhelmingly female. You can blame it on conditioning if you like, but there are certain career paths that women are more likely to choose and certain career paths that men are likely to choose.

This is a perfect example of the problem with modern feminism. The feminists want perfect total parity and equal outcomes in all areas of public life. While this is a noble goal, most real women don't want to actually do the things that would create this outcome. Yes, there should probably be more female electrical engineers, but good luck finding large numbers of women who want to do that. And good luck finding large numbers of men who want to teach kindergarten.

Whether it's poor communication or mistaken idealism, the interests of most modern feminists are simply not compatible with what many women want.

by wayward on Sat Feb 05, 2005 at 10:03:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: LoL (none / 0)

<quote>I don't know why women don't want to go to Georgia Tech, but it isn't because they aren't welcomed. It's probably because the curriculum offered at Tech is not what most women are interested in.</quote>

Or, as is so often the case, the curriculum is one that they aren't supposed to be interested in, and thus they are discouraged from pursuing it and face high levels of gender discrimination and even sexual harrassment.  My friend was in engineering and can attest to this.  She really wanted to be in that field, but they made it hard for her.

<quote>This is a perfect example of the problem with modern feminism. The feminists want perfect total parity and equal outcomes in all areas of public life. While this is a noble goal, most real women don't want to actually do the things that would create this outcome.</quote>

The feminists want a world in which parity is possible, in which they can enter a field without it being considered "male" or "female."  I have no idea why men wouldn't want this as well.  If you chose to stay home with your child, would you want to face ridicule?  What if you decided to be a nurse, a secretary, or in some other traditionally "female" field?  

by wilder on Sun Feb 06, 2005 at 01:38:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: LoL (none / 0)

I want parity in the stopping working at 30 segment =)
by donkeykong on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 08:39:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: LoL (none / 0)

Then why the fuck don't you?  Who says men can't be the ones to stay home and raise the kids?  Is there some sort of gold-plated law brought down from heaven that says only women should give up their careers to raise their kids?  I'd be thrilled if more men respected housework and raising families enough to take up the burden.
by wilder on Sat Feb 05, 2005 at 12:47:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: LoL (none / 0)

Women say so.
by donkeykong on Sat Feb 05, 2005 at 01:57:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: LoL (none / 0)

Hmm, didn't realize "women saying so" codified it into law.  You can do it anyway, if you want.  If you don't want to stay home and raise the kids, lose income and work experience, then don't bitch that you can't.
by wilder on Sat Feb 05, 2005 at 03:13:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Parity (none / 0)

Try this on for size:

"Men make slightly more money than women until they start to marry or have kids.  Men who never marry and never have kids are at parity."

Parity. I do not think that word means what you think it means.

Before you win, you have to fight. Come fight along with us at TexasKaos.
by boadicea on Sat Feb 05, 2005 at 07:55:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: LoL (none / 0)

Women who have wanted it HAVE made progress in upper management and in many other high levels. However, many women simply haven't wanted that. Some women consider an ideal position a non-management position that allows them flexibility to have more time with their families. To each her own.

Normalize for profession and experience and the wage gap narrows considerably. The reason why women still make $0.75 for every dollar men make is probably because there are still a considerable amount of good paying blue collar jobs that men take in large numbers and women show little interest in, such as mechanic, carpenter, and plumber. A female in any of these professions would probably make the same money as a man in the same situation, but few women are interested in these jobs.

Also, consider that it takes time for women (and men) to get to the top. Title IX and other feminist programs were only passed in the 1970's. The young women at the cutting edge of the women's movement will be reaching the top in larger numbers within the next decade. Expect this to continue in larger numbers as time goes on.

The danger to Roe is greatly overblown. The current score is 6-3. Remember that Reagan appointed three justices who publicly opposed Roe. When it came time to overturn it in 1992, only Scalia voted to do that, Kennedy and O'Connor voted to uphold it.

Even if Roe was overturned, it would just go back to the states. If you live in a blue state, more than likely not much would change.

More importantly, based on his Texas record, it is evident that Bush doesn't really care one way or the other. He is opposes abortion simply to get votes.

Birth control in danger? What have you been smoking? (because I'd like some)

Yes, racism is alive and well, but you can't deny that we have come a LONG way since King's time. Of course, we still have a long way to go.

by wayward on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 08:26:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: LoL (none / 0)

You mean normalize it for childbirth, which women are still entirely responsible for.
by noalternative on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 10:31:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: LoL (none / 0)

Sorry, but men just aren't very good at having children.
by wayward on Sat Feb 05, 2005 at 09:35:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: LoL (none / 0)

Workplace flexibility for family time is shit, and as far as I can see, that is a problem for fathers as well as mothers.  You seem to think that only women want to take off early to pick their kids up from soccer or take care of them when they're sick.  

Most businesses only permit two weeks of vacation and maybe a week or two more of days off for the entire year.  Although people can take this time off, they are discouraged.  Women are less discouraged than men simply because women are more identified with families (whether or not in reality that is true), while men are identified with winning the bread (again, whether or not in reality that is true).

However, even though women are given less pressure to put the job first, they pay for it later when they try to reenter the workforce after spending years raising the kids.  With no recent work experience and outdated skills, they are viewed as obsolete, even if they are the same competent people they always were and could be easily trained.  So great - why not just let them take the extra time to train and try again?  Suppose very recently, the "breadwinner" husband decided he wanted a divorce, and the stay-at-home mom was now left with no main income?  She's done an important job, and now she's screwed.

by wilder on Sat Feb 05, 2005 at 12:56:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: LoL (none / 0)

Women represent 50%+ of the population.  Whats more men make up more than 50% of the population of people who are barred from voting due to felony or being in

An additional 40-50% of people don't vote.

If women were united behind you on the issues you mentioned they would have them by now.  Even if 50% of women felt strongly about these issues (enough that the non-voters voted) they would have a massive voting block and would easily get a large part of your agenda.

But the fact remains that the average woman got what she wanted AND WENT HOME.  If you can't even get 50% of the women to support you I think its not reasonable to call it feminism.  

by donkeykong on Sat Feb 05, 2005 at 02:09:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: LoL (none / 0)

Feminism advances women's needs in the public sphere, pure and simple.  The fact that there are a lot of social inequities many women aren't aware of just means there should be MORE feminism, not less.  

A lot of what is good for women is also good for men.  For instance, I doubt many middle-aged fathers would say that they wished they could imprison themselves in their offices 50 hours a week and miss every important milestone in their kids' lives.  The fact that workplaces are as flexible as they are (and there is still a ways to go) is because feminists fought to give women more opportunities there, and men finally found that they could actually put their families first as well.

by wilder on Sat Feb 05, 2005 at 03:23:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Ah, this really does explains a lot (none / 0)

Very interesting.

The first reference utilized the terminology and syntax of the extremist right. That's an interesting indication of the frame of the poster, no?

Yes, yes, those loaded terms. especially the second two.

Gay marriage. Radical Feminism. Racial Quotas.

After being called on it, note that the poster tries to "soften" the frame. In addition, we get pseudo sociological jargon - citing vague or broad anecdotes and no actual statistics. Throwing in a reference to the content of Martin Luther King's "I have a dream" speech is a nice touch.

Fascinating. Absolutely fascinating.

543,895 votes
by Michael Bersin on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 09:23:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ah, this really does explains a lot (none / 0)

I think you are confused.
The right uses racial quotas, feminism as it exists today and gay marriage for a reason...

Because the voters agree with them...
They are pounding those issues over and over again because they are winners for them...

Do you really believe that the gun toting white males that I was talking about (in the origional post where Dean wanted the white southern male with a gun rack to vote dem) are all feminists?

Do you think they want racial quotas?
Gay marriage?

The origional point still stands.  If you want the southern gun owners you are probably going to have to sacrifice the unpopular ideas.

If you want to tell truth to power you first have to tell the truth...

by donkeykong on Sat Feb 05, 2005 at 02:23:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ah, this really does explains a lot (none / 0)

....The right uses racial quotas, feminism as it exists today and gay marriage for a reason....

My point exactly. A "moderate" would have no need to...

543,895 votes
by Michael Bersin on Sat Feb 05, 2005 at 07:19:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

So your saying subitting to a life (none / 0)

of infertility is the only way huh.  Yeah feminist paradise alright.  BTW, it is more disconserting we haven't reached political equality with men than that we haven't become CEOs.  How many women are in congress?  How many women have been President.  How many have run for President in the past 10 yrs.  Women actually aren't presented with alot of choices in life primarily because men haven't taken up the home burdens and because of lack childcare.  How many women have been head of your beloved dlc?
by noalternative on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 10:30:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So your saying subitting to a life (none / 0)

How many women WANT to be in congress?
By want to be in congress I don't mean win the lottery and be in congress, I mean spend the 5+ years building up political capital to run successfully for congress.

Because if women wanted to be in congress.  And women wanted women in congress.  Men don't have enough votes to stop them.

by donkeykong on Sat Feb 05, 2005 at 02:11:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So your saying subitting to a life (none / 0)

Women aren't being elected because women aren't running.

When women do run, there is no indication that they are at a disadvantage against male opponents, even in the very red states.

by wayward on Sat Feb 05, 2005 at 07:39:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dean, the Anti-Dean and their supporters. (3.00 / 2)

The "values" of the DLC?

The VALUES of the DLC?!?

What values would those be? Distortion, disinformation and deception?

Or would it be the value of keeping the power of the party in the hands of a few elites?

The DLC is a horrible institution that exists only to serve the insiders in DC and to maintain the status-quo.

Do you really think they give a rat's arse about you?

Please, please tell me one damned positive thing that the DLC has done for the Democratic Party.

Two riders were approaching......the wind begins to howl!
by John in Chicago on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 04:40:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dean, the Anti-Dean and their supporters. (none / 0)

DLC
They removed the widely held belief that Democrats could not be fiscally responsible.  George Bush has helped to show republicans can be fiscally irresponsible.  The net result is that we are now the party of managing the nations finances wisely where in the past this has been the republican party in poll after poll.

They removed the widely held belief that Democrats could not be president.  Without Clintons 8 years of prosperity and well managed foreign policy the Dem party would really be dead.

by donkeykong on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 04:46:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dean, the Anti-Dean and their supporters. (none / 0)

I didn't ask you to tell me one damned positive thing that Clinton did, I asked you about the DLC.

Clinton's charisma is what propelled him to the presidency - not the DLC's misguided worldview.

In other words, I'm asking you what's so good about the "egg", and you're telling me what's good about the "chicken".

Just because Clinton enabled the DLC doesn't make them one and the same. Besides, alot of Clinton's policies were just as misguided as the DLC in general, he just had the charisma to push them through. (Telecommunications Act ring a bell?)

How about standing up for what's really right, as opposed to standing up for what you incorrectly assume is the national perception of what's right?

Two riders were approaching......the wind begins to howl!
by John in Chicago on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 05:11:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dean, the Anti-Dean and their supporters. (none / 0)

Both accomplishments were DLC traits.  IE ways in which a common run of the mill DLC would act once elected.

The concept that pragmatism is superiour in its ability to deliver results than idealism is part of the DLC message.

Clinton was very non-typical in what he did in office.  He started cutting administrative budget with Al Gores "reinvinting government" as soon as he gained office which is not a TRADITIONAL dem stance.

by donkeykong on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 07:06:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dean, the Anti-Dean and their supporters. (none / 0)

This would be the "widely held view" coming from a century of mostly Democratic Presidents?

The problem for the party was they kept nominating charisma challenged losers like Mondale and Dukakis. Had Gary Hart not had bimbo issues, the game would have been different. I would note that Dukakis was quite friendly to the proto-DLc wing of the party...and he was also 5'0 with the charisma of grits. Funny how your brilliant movement didn't do much with him.

Its really become tiresome to listen to you twits constantly attribute to your movement what was truly the achievemnt of the single best politician in the second half of the century. Billy boy could have run successfully on a platform of human sacrifice and anrcho-syndicalism.

by ElitistJohn on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 07:04:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Question donkey.... (none / 0)

How many "Deaniacs" do you know persoanlly?  I'm not talking about those that post on the internet.  I'm talking about folks who support Dean but aren't bloggers.  Those types of people comprise the majority of Deaniacs. I know many, many Deaniacs and they are probably the most inclusive people I know.

If you think Deaniacs will be surprised that Dean rules in an inclusive manner and will try to get all types of people into the party, you have another thing coming.  Dean supporters knew that while he opposed the Iraq War, he supported the invasion of Afghanistan, the Kosovo conflict and the first Gulf War.  We also knew he balanced the budget every year in a state that doesn't require a balanced budget, he had an A rating from the NRA and wanted states to decide their own gun laws, he improved Vermont's bond ratings from the worst in New England to the best in New England, he sought a balance between jobs and the environment, and that he provided health care to 98% of Vermont's children.  Deaniacs are not blind followers, we take what we love about Gov. Dean with the stuff we don't necessarily agree with him on because the plusses far outweigh the minuses (at least in our eyes).

The stereotyping of Dean supporters is probably the most prevalent bias in politics right now.  Dean supporters are supposedly cult-like, all-white, lefty beatniks, highly intolerant, anti-war hippies who are steering the party to become ultra-left.  At least that's how we are described constantly by pundits and anti-Dean people on the web.  I hope that the stereotypes will some day stop, but I doubt it will happen soon.

by Norm on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 05:34:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Question donkey.... (none / 0)

Dean is a Visionary in some ways and when I have seen him outside of his campaign I have been impressed.

But politics is about symbols first and foremost.  Dean is a symbol of the left wing of the democrat party (by his own chosing dem wing of dem party etc).  For many of them when they say they want a big tent they mean that want a lot of people to vote exactly as they want but are totally unwilling to change their platform to the center where the votes are.

If dean moves the party to the center and picks up the core of our message (equality) while throwing away the silly stuff (racial quotas) I wonder how they will react.
(example the ivy league school (Harvard?) had a racial minority program that let in minorities but it is so exclusive that only the already rich minorities who really don't need help got in and when they had a street kid who had busted his ass for 3 years getting extra homework that wasn't even assigned to be ready they told him to go fish because he didn't have enough AP credits and wasn't Harvard? material, largely due to the sorry state of education at his ghetto school.)

by donkeykong on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 07:42:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

So how many Dean supporters (none / 0)

do you know personally?
by nanorich on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 08:00:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So how many Dean supporters (none / 0)

I live with one.
Does that change anything?

Do we move from the you don't understand argument to the you are too personally involved argument?

by donkeykong on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 08:16:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So how many Dean supporters (none / 0)

I just noted you studiously avoided the question.
by nanorich on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 08:26:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So how many Dean supporters (none / 0)

Get used to it.
How many anti-Dean people's home phone numbers do you have?

Is this a relavant question in some conversation you want to have but I don't?

Lets talk issues and not personal trivia.

by donkeykong on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 08:41:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It was a legit question.... (2.50 / 2)

one's personal experience tends to color one's opinions...

and your description of Dean supporters seemed to be...how do I put this...straight out of The Club for Growth Ad.

by nanorich on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 10:00:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Question donkey.... (none / 0)

What I wanted to know is how the pragmatic, center-left, NRA endorsed, Governor of Vermont became this "raging leftist"?

Could it be the invention of a news media that prefers to create the news stories instead of reporting them?

To all the moderate Democrats out there: Dean's bark is far worse than his bite and I, as a moderate Democrat, would rather hear Dean's bark that the whimper I've been hearing from party leaders lately.

Dean is better as the head of the DNC than as the nominee because his personality isn't under the microscope as it is in a Presidential campaign. He can scream his head off if he likes, that would be his job!

by wayward on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 08:57:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Priceless. (none / 0)

The deaniacs IMO are not a very inclusive bunch.  By that I mean that they don't really want the south gun toting white male in the Dem party if that means that the Dem party will be a place where that person feels at home.

If by "not very inclusive" one means that they point out the uncritical repetition of right wing talking points, you're right.  

So what will happen if Dean turns out to be the anti-Dean?

He'd have to turn into a fascist. The republicans already have that sewn up in their leader.

From what I can see the values of the DLC win in all three senarios.  The Dem party WILL move to the center where the votes are.

Yeah, that DLC set of values - look, sound, and act like a republican - facilitate contempt for the grassroots - protect the beltway insiders and their status quo at all costs.

Priceless. "[W]here the votes are". That's why the DLC has won so many elections.

543,895 votes
by Michael Bersin on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 05:54:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The Demo Party is Resurrecting from Near-Death (none / 0)

In a few days, it will be time for people to move forward together.

People can make their choices. We stand to gain far more than we can possibly lose.

Those who choose not to will drop off, as dead weight should. Anyone who wants to join together and work for the common effort should be welcome. Those who don't will have made their own choice.

Sort of like those who insisted on voting for Nader in the last election cycle. Of course, you have the right to do as you like, but who are you really helping?

by DDenver on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 03:21:36 PM EST

In the Lizza article (3.00 / 1)

the insiders expressed fears Dean being a  lightning rod for attacks by the GOP....

to which I say:

Being a lightning rod isn't necessarily a bad thing. Lightning Rods provide a genuine service.  They attract ligntning, a destructive force, and render lightning harmless.  

If Dean is going to be a lightning rod for GOP attacks, that would be refreshing for a change; it seems the only people attacking Dean right now are his fellow Democrats.  And on the basis of a characiture they chose to believe, but has no basis in reality.

by nanorich on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 03:24:39 PM EST

Re: In the Lizza article (3.00 / 1)

"it seems the only people attacking Dean right now are his fellow Democrats.  And on the basis of a caricature they chose to believe, but has no basis in reality. "

AKA "doublethink" (the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them)

Two riders were approaching......the wind begins to howl!
by John in Chicago on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 04:44:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

More like a bulldog than a lightning rod (none / 0)

What criticism does a party chair ever receive?  

Please.  I guarantee he'll give us far better than he'll get.   And he'll deliever the party base like no one else can.  The DLC should be thanking their lucky stars they have a DNC chair that deliever the base for the centristis they'll likely get nominated.

by descrates on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 09:45:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Chait (none / 0)

What people like Chait dread is a living, breathing democracy populated by citizens who actually participate in the management of their own affairs.  As we all know, Dean is a centrist in policy terms;  but he is a hell-raising activist, and that is what the Establishment fears most.  

Heaven forbid that the rabble should actually raise their voices....

by global yokel on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 03:28:19 PM EST

Re: Chait (none / 0)

As one 'rab' to another, yeeeeeeaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh! ;)
by DDenver on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 03:42:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Irony (none / 0)

I do find it ironic that most of these pundits predicting the demise of the Democratic party due to the Dean-infusion are from (or are in) the coastal cultural elite.  If Dean isn't able to rally the loyal FDR-Democrats fighting the good fight in Republican Noise Machine country like Oklahoma, the Dakotas, or Utah, then he would have failed, but these pundits seem not to remember that FDR was a Northeastern liberal elite as well--and yet he kept trouncing all those Republicans from the heartland.
by rtung on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 03:51:13 PM EST

Stop calling the DLC "centrists". (none / 0)

My God, 40 years ago, Dean would have been considered a Eisenhower Republican (no doubt, what his Republican Father was). Dean ran Vermont as a slightly (traditional) conservative (when that appellation still had any meaning)/moderate much to the chagrin of the more lefty Dems of the state.

This is how these fuckers continue to marginalize Democrats. Bleat over and over and over about how we're radical, crazy lefties.

The DLC types whining about Dean are not centrists. Just Karl Rove wannabes.

"Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." -- Denis Diderot
by Stoic on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 04:09:30 PM EST

just the beginning (none / 0)

Dean et al are going to be attacked by right, left and center for sometime to come.  

turning the titianic isn't going to be easy.  especially after years of re-arranging deck chairs.

this is going to be hard work--but the objective is just and the outcome worthwhile.

by aiko on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 04:14:59 PM EST

Bull Moose (3.00 / 1)

Who is the Bull Moose and should we trust him?

http://buffalobeast.com/66/wittman.htm

"Marshall Wittmann, the former legislative director for the Christian Coalition and also a veteran talking head of such excellent organizations as the Heritage Foundation and the Hudson Institute (which hypes him as "one of the nation's most quoted analysts"), offers himself as a candidate for the chair of the Democratic Party. Wittmann, you see, is now an operative at the Democratic Leadership Council--he got the policy operative spot that opened up when Al From and Bruce Reed were tipped off that their initial choice, Mobutu Sese Seko, had been dead for years. So they brought in Wittmann, whose chief credentials were that he used to stand guard for Ralph Reed at church rest rooms whenever the latter ducked out of evening mass to jerk off to Ranger Rick centerfolds.

Wittmann calls himself the "Bull Moose," and his blog, bullmooseblog.com, is one of two blogs funded and maintained by the Democratic Leadership Council."

by susan1 on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 04:30:17 PM EST

Re: Bull Moose (3.00 / 0)

Right on. Wittman, Beinart and Sullie are basically liberal Republicans who cannot tolerate the dishonesty and corruption of the Republican party. They want to see the Democratic party remade in their vision of what the Republican party ought to be.

They are fine allies on specific issues, but should not be taken too seriously. They and the DLC are all urging the Republican lite centrism that has failed for the last twenty years.

by Gary Boatwright on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 06:45:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bull Moose (none / 0)

Definitely worth reading with an open mind. You've gotta get out of the echo chamber every once in awhile. Think of the DLC what you will but I see no reason to dismiss out of hand the writings at bullmoose or newdonkey.

I'm an outsider to the whole DLC controversy myself and from what I can see there's alot of grudges that should probably be put aside. They aren't Republicans and they certainly aren't backing the Authoritarian Wing of the Republican Party so I'm willing to hear their point of view.

If anyone has errors of fact from either blog I'd be interested to see them but I'd be surprised if they were made in bad faith.

by Curt Matlock on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 10:11:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Finances? Gladly! (none / 0)

""Dean, remember, raised about $50 million by positioning himself as the most anti-Bush candidate, but blew through it so fast that he was nearly broke by January." I'll let others address the bookkeeping details. If Dean had not been sabatoged by the DLC, he would have had the nomination locked up after New Hampshire. Whatever errors of judgment Dean made about spending campaign contributions, was exacerbated by underestimating the irrational lengths the DLC centrists were and still are willing to go to take down a threat to their power base."

As someone who was there (Iowa) - sure, the purse-strings were pretty loose. But there was a reason: the calculation had been made that whoever came out of Iowa and New Hampshire, had it in the bag. So we were told, more or less, that whatever we needed to win, we had.

Know what? We were right. Just wasn't Dean that came out of Iowa and New Hampshire.

If Dean had had an additional $10 million in the still in the kitty after NH, would he have won the nomination? You kidding me?

But if Dean had won Iowa and NH, you think he would've had trouble fundraising?

Right.

It was a leave-it-all-on-the-field strategy, with victory as the only goal. I could make an analogy to the general election, but won't.

Seriously though - is there a single constituency that Chait, Beinart, From, Reed, Marshall et. al. can point to as drawing support from? Those guys are the elitists, demanding fealty from the silly, idealistic, "actual voters" in the Democratic Party. They're welcome in the Party - which is more than they say of us - but really, I wish they'd stop being such condescending jerks.

by jkdism on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 04:32:06 PM EST

fall in love, then fall in line (none / 0)

jonathan chait has bashed dean practically from day one, so any criticism should be taken with a huge grain of salt.  that being said, i suggest we all fire off some polite letters to chait.  i've actually had a few back and forth exchanges with the guy, and via email he's very reasonable and engaging.

however, if the dnc chair fight is over and dean's truly inevitable, chait and his ilk need to get with the program.  bill clinton put it best at the harkin steak fry back in 2003.  during the primaries, you can fall in love.  but once it's over, then you fall in line.  

so i say to chait: heed the call of your centrist demigod clinton and fall in line.  and if you don't like the way things go during howard's term over the next four years, you have every right to back another candidate for dnc chair in 2008.  but for now the time has come for everybody to quit their bitching and get to work.  we have no time to waste if we want to take our country back from the neocons that are destroying it.  if you have ideas about how to take down the GOP, bring it on.   but when it comes to taking down your fellow democrats, shut the hell up and get with the program.

fall in line

Visit us at TexasKAOS, where we're taking Texas back!
by annatopia on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 05:17:53 PM EST

Re: fall in love, then fall in line (none / 0)

Please, please, please, can we just ask bozos like Mr. Chait to re-register as a Republican?

Do we HAVE to let every fscking gremlin remain on the ship, slitting the sails and blowing holes in the bottom?

Couldn't we just ask them to, I don't know, take a long thoughtful walk off a short pier?

RMD

The W.astrel's War. Fought with our blood and his 'guts'.
by RedMeatDem on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 05:37:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

We Need a Fresh Start (none / 0)

Yeah, it's a good idea to listen to people like Chait - just hang in with the party insiders who led us Democrats into the wilderness and who have no idea how to get us out.  I, for one, am ready for a fresh start - a meaner, even leaner, feisty political party that can provide a real alternative to the GOP.  I'm tired of GOP Lite (look at some of the mealy-mouthed Democrats in Congress now who grovel at the feet of their Republican counterparts).  I'm not expecting instant success with new leadership but we need to build a party with a strong message that's going to be ready to take over when the failures of the current GOP White House-GOP Congress tag team become too painful for voters to ignore.
by Mushinronsha on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 07:24:50 PM EST

The Wisdom of Seinfeld (none / 0)

JERRY: Oh, you're crazy!
KRAMER: Am I? Or am I so sane I just blew your mind?
by Malacandra on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 07:31:25 PM EST

Chait (none / 0)

Chait has a hate-on for Dean.  I don't think it's ideological.  I think it's personal.
by Paleo on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 07:49:57 PM EST

God. Where to begin? (none / 0)

Put bluntly, the DNC Chair has for a very long time, beemn underutilized.  The Democrats desparately need a strong spokesman outside the beltway powerelites.  Dean will mobilize the base in the coming '06 election in a way Pilosi and Reid could only dream.  And he won't be appealing to anyone else but democrats--that's the beauty of it.  Chait is full of shit.  Who do I remember them favoring in '03?  Leiberman?  And he was supposed to be the candidate that would lead us to victory?  Please.  This shit is why I just cancelled my subscription.  
by descrates on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 09:33:54 PM EST

Centrists against Dean? Bwahahaha! (none / 0)

Looking through my independent lenses, I can't help but find this conjecture by grassroots and the punditry as amusing. Centrists opposed Dean? Nonsense.

That the DLC moderates favor moderate candidates for chair over an ex-moderate/now-populist candidate like Dean...understandable since everyone favors their own constituencies. Were any of you truly surprised that Dean eventually won? Since 2003 its been CW that if Kerry failed his bid, despite Terry's admittedly formiddable fund-raising skills, the democratic party would be in for some serious infighting and/or restructuring and/or headhunting, etc. TNR and Slate had several great pieces on this before Nov 2nd. That is, it goes without saying if Kerry lost that the leftist plank will say "you had your chance, now it's our turn" and move the party back to the left-wing. It always happens this way.

Here's why moderate dems are worried...an excerpt from a TNR article before the election:

-- "And when you think of what is happening in the two major parties, the case for a Kerry presidency strengthens. If Bush wins, the religious right, already dominant in Republican circles, will move the GOP even further toward becoming a sectarian, religious grouping. If Kerry loses, the antiwar left will move the party back into the purist, hate-filled wilderness, ceding untrammeled power to a resurgent, religious Republicanism--a development that will prove as polarizing abroad as it is divisive at home. But if Bush loses, the fight to recapture Republicanism from Big Government moralism will be given new energy; and if Kerry wins, the center of the Democratic party will gain new life. That, at least, is the hope. We cannot know for sure." -- http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?pt=qFFINfAm4eR7PMnY1tkQ2m%3D%3D

The worry is that since most mainstream Americans polled identify themselves as "moderates", that is neither too far right or left, and willing to swing either way, that's where most of the votes are. Energize your base all you want...but cede the moderates and independents to the GOP and you have zero chance of winning a national election. That's a fact. If the party takes too much of a leftist stand these voters may be alienated...the only issue I have with that is that the right so far seems to be resistent to this theory. They move ever more right and still get many moderate votes.

But as for centrists? I've favored Dean for chair from the beginning. He's simply been the odds on favorite, I never liked Terry, and the party could use the energy and some new direction. That's always healthy. But I really like him as chair because that ensures Hillary as the odds on nominee for 2008. There's probably no one out there that can stop her. She's the centrist candidate. It's in the interest of every centrist to root for Dean as chair.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 10:34:41 PM EST

Re: Centrists against Dean? Bwahahaha! (none / 0)

What a bizarre idea... the GOP moves to the right and wins more votes and power, but the Democrats move to the left and they lose votes and power?

There seem to be two models for "how voters think" -- really, how voters choose candidates. One is that moderate voters are persuaded one way or another by those with ideas/attitude they like, and the other is that moderate voters evaluate their position on a left-to-right axis and vote for whoever they're closer to on that spectrum. You seem to be applying both sets of logic, and differently for each party.

Though that's exactly what the DNC does as well, so no (further) harm done, I guess. Just a weird way of explaining it.

by matt w on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 11:25:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Centrists against Dean? Bwahahaha! (none / 0)

I wasn't applying the logic so much as pointing out that I myself don't understand how the cons are so good at getting away with it.

In 2000 Bush positioned himself as a moderate. Practically no one had any idea he'd govern the way he did. He was the Washington outsider that was going to come reach across the aisle. Then once he got into office he turned into Mr Hyde, sided with every right-wing fundie issue, and generally fucked the rest of us right in the ass. Then 9/11 happened and Mr Hyde seems to be exactly what mainstream America thinks is best to run this country in time of war: a stubborn ignorant asshole wielding cowboy diplomacy at the point of a sword.

So I sort of believe the current political environment kind of insulates Bushco from the normal rules. The rules have changed, if you will. I don't think this favors the left.

The problem I have with some on the far left is that some take the anti-war movement dangerously too far. Anti-war is fine...the people will soon reach exhaustion and seek a return to normalcy. However, I've been reading on many liberal blogs like Atrios, Dkos, and even this one where some people seem to actually favor the insurgency. That's the wrong message to send to the moderates and independents and WILL backfire. Nationalist resistance fighters is are thing, they have a right to fight any occupation, however let's not pretend that foreigners like Zarqawi give two shits about the Iraqi people. His indescriminant car bombs and assassinations have proved that much where he's just as willing to kill the Iraqis as Americans.

Any perception by middle America or exploitation of this kind of attitude by the GOP in 2008 is going to doom any dem candidate. The antiwar movement has to be framed in a way that the dems are trying to protect America by bringing the troops home -- it can't look unpatriotic in the least. Sure, the grassroots may not think it looks that way but we all know how its going to be spun. Frankly, I also find it pretty disgusting when anyone supports murderous bastards like Zarqawi who is no friend of the Iraqis.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sat Feb 05, 2005 at 04:54:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Centrists against Dean? Bwahahaha! (none / 0)

I understand what you're saying about the "anti-war left": it can be easy to claim every "insurgent attack" as a vindication of your position - "Wow, was I right about that!" - and how it can be easily mistaken for "Wow, that makes me feel good!"

That said, this debacle should be used often to club the GOP, because it was the most foolish, dishonest misadventure of a generation -- and I'm certain we don't know just how bad it'll turn out to be in the end. It's fine to beat up on "irresponsible peaceniks" for whatever failings they might have, but we'd better go after "irresponsible warmongers" ten times as hard when they turn out to be wrong.

(PS: I think we should also just drop, forget about Zarqawi. This idea that there's a figure we can focus our hate on to solve our problems turned out disastrously in Iraq so far, and ignores the realities of modern foreign affairs and guerrilla warfare. If there was one guy that we should have focused on, it'd be bin Laden. The question that reveals the absurdity of this fascination with Zarqawi is "So, how many legs does he have?")

by matt w on Sat Feb 05, 2005 at 08:25:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Centrists against Dean? Bwahahaha! (none / 0)

I'm not concerned about Zarqawi in the way that Bushco would like me to be, that is, as the supposed terror mastermind fueling the insurgency and thus a way for Bush to paint a villain for the war.

I hate bastards like Zarqawi because it's islamic radical foreigners like him and Osama who are responsible for so much meddling in the middle east, using religion to ply the masses and advance their own agendas, completely ingenuious and deceptive in their claimed support for oppressed arabs. They're like parasites that infest any region in turmoil, usually one with a weakened regime that cannot control its borders or its own territory. Meanwhile, they claim to support the popular will of the people while indescriminantly killing them in the name of their cause.

I was heartened in early 2004 when some shiite arab resistance groups declared Zarqawi an outlaw and criminal for bombing Iraqis in the name of the resistance, threatening to kill him themselves, but unfortunately it seems to have failed to play out.

I lived in the middle east for 7 years and knew many arabs. These people like Zarqawi are largely responsible for sullying the name and reputation of many of the good citizens I knew there. I especially hate it when certain arab leaders and "resistance" movements in the region use the palestinian issue as a propaganda chip to earn public support when they really don't give a damn about really helping the palestinians.

So although I sympathize with nationalist Iraqi resistance fighters who don't kill their own people, and oppose the Iraq war as it was instigated by Bush in the beginning, I have zero sympathy for Zarqawi and his thugs who are slaughtered by American forces. Foreign fighters who bomb and shoot the Iraqi people can go to hell, and if by US weapons, so much the better. Though I'd prefer if the Iraqis did it themselves.

There was a news story the other day about a small Sunni village near Mosul where the insurgents attacked the village for having a poll center. The sheikh and his men fought back killing several and capturing the rest of the attackers. He said he was sick of them bullying his villagers. That's what I like to see.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sun Feb 06, 2005 at 12:00:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You're rebuttals are bullshit (none / 0)

To his claim that Dean lacks message discipline (to which there are numerous gaffes for verification), you say you think Dean will do well and that McAuliffe was bad. This isn't a rebuttal, it's spin.

Your rebuttal to his claim that the election for chair was a process of third rate intrique was another example of evasive spin disguised as a rigorous response to his points. You've obviously not read the article. Mark Bowers used his position of leverage not to promote the party but to advance his own provincial interests by making each candidate fulfill his demands. It was not simply minimum fincancing of state parties that he was demanding, but essentially a takeover of the national party by state parties. He demanded, for example, that the state parties be able to name 50 of the current 75 staff positions the DNC chairman gets to name.

My favorite part is how you blame Dean's inability to manage money on the DLC's attacks. If he couldn't spend wisely because of the DLC attacks, imagine how he would have spent money during a RNC onslaught.

This paragraph strikes me as incoherent or plainly wrong: "Several former Dean staffers are disgruntled with Dean's management style. The DNC chair should be a disciplinarian. That's what we need. A Ross Perot type who runs a button downed tight fisted operation. A top down micro-manager who runs a tight ship. Perhaps a Yale graduate with an MBA who brooks no dissent in the ranks?" The description of an ideal chair seems the opposite of Howard Dean. I think you were trying to say Dean was a disciplinarian who tolerated no dissent. This comes right after two quotes from former aides dissenting about his poor management. Another dissenter is his former Campaign manager, Joe Trippi, who endorsed Simon Rosenberg. You then mention an MBA, which was confusing since Dean doesn't have one.

Your response to Chait's claim that straight talk doesn't do a chair any good is to not actually address the claim but to attack the DLC.

Perhaps the most ridiculous part of your response is when you address the fact that Dean's approval rating among Dems is 27%. You reject the poll by saying it's not 27% who solely approve of Dean but 27% who are wildly enthusiastic about Dean. So I guess it would be fair to assume then that the 73% who don't approve of him hate him. Then you again make a comparison that doesn't stand up under scrutiny. McAuliffe was a little known (outside of the beltway) financier for the party. Would his name recognition numbers be anywhere near high enough to acurately measure opinion toward him? You then seem to make the argument that it is better to be known and incredibly unpopular with your own party than relatively unknown. Anyone will tell you that it is easy to increase name recognition than to change public opinion after it has made up its mind.

by skipper2379 on Sat Feb 05, 2005 at 12:25:33 AM EST

Re: You're rebuttals are bullshit (none / 0)

If Kerry had won, Terry would have been praised for his brilliance at leveling the playing field with the GOP, the dems having for the first time raised equivelent sums to the republicans when you consider 527s, and actually exceeded them when you consider the 10 candidates during the primaries.

But since Kerry lost, Terry of course is going to shoulder all the blame for what went wrong. Such is always the case in every campaign. You can bet that in 2008 if the dems lost with a straight left-wing effort you'd see another flip back to clintonian moderation as the blame shifted once again.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Sat Feb 05, 2005 at 05:01:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Playing the part of an informed shill ... (none / 0)

"Mark Bowers used his position of leverage not to promote the party but to advance his own provincial interests by making each candidate fulfill his demands. It was not simply minimum fincancing of state parties that he was demanding, but essentially a takeover of the national party by state parties. He demanded, for example, that the state parties be able to name 50 of the current 75 staff positions the DNC chairman gets to name."

I assume you actually mean Mark Brewer Democratic State Chair of Michigan?

If you're going to pretend to be more informed than the person you're arguing with, getting the names right is a good start.

It's just a thought.

Before you win, you have to fight. Come fight along with us at TexasKaos.
by boadicea on Sat Feb 05, 2005 at 08:13:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Origin of the DLC (none / 0)

Rather than just pointing out the flaws in the DLC and its DC Staff -- let's look at where it really came from.

To find Origins you need to go back to 1988 and the Dukakis Campaign, particularly the run-up to the Atlantia Convention.  If you remember, Dukakis was way ahead of the field, but Jesse Jackson had the votes to keep it from being a first ballot nomination -- and Jackson played his hand pre-convention, asking for and getting campaign staff slots, and a few other fovors, including a floor debate on a fairly mild Palestine/Israel resolution.  The resolution broke with former Democratic platforms in that it recognized a Palestinian Right to Statehood.  

Dukakis more or less agreed, and given the right to a prime time speech, Jesse released his delegates, and all went according to plan.  But for some the great threat was the very large and well organized black and progressive faction within the party taking a position on Palestine/Israel and using rhetoric that was other than the AIPAC approved sort.  That's the core of the DLC -- that potential threat to the party's power center had to be fractured, and the DLC was the means to that end.  

Next time I saw the DLC in action was in 1990 when they sent some of their resources into Minnesota to be used against -- yea, that's right, against Paul Wellstone.  Wellstone's opponent was an AIPAC approved Republican, and Wellstone had co-chaird Jackson's 1988 primary campaign.  Of course Wellstone was not only Jewish, but most of his family had been wiped out in the Holocaust and in Stalin's purges.  But he was not "approved" so he had to be defeated.  

The vulnerability of the DLC is around humanistic issues.  They have no vision for the betterment of the Human Condition -- and they need to be brought up short on that account.  They do know quite a lot about schmutzy little power games, and this Dean screed they are on is about that little interest.  You make them useless, irrelevant and past tense by calling them out on their anti-humanistic game.  

"Politics is not about money or power games, or winning for the sake of winning.  Politics is about the improvement of people's lives, lessening human suffering, advancing the cause of peace and justice: in our country and in the World."  (Paul Wellstone)  

by Sara on Sat Feb 05, 2005 at 05:18:17 AM EST

Re: Origin of the DLC (none / 0)

Interesting perspective -- I've always thought of the DLC and TNR as a Lieberman or McCain types of organizations, where they gets thrills and dollars from publicly beating on the party they nominally represent. I understand there's some level of crossover between DLC/AIPAC, as there is between any dem-leaning groups, but how the the proto-DLC function in that Senate race? Was it really the Democratic group that was doing the attacks, or were they only marginally involved?

by matt w on Sat Feb 05, 2005 at 08:58:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Origin of the DLC (none / 0)

They totally shut down Paul's efforts to get funds from the DSCC, and made certain that some organizations (Council for a Livable World, for instance), which had promised support was turned off.  

In examining Boschwitz's donors post election, we found a number of late donars who were DLC connected.

For me the most illuminating event was a morning after election phone call from the DLC (a national Elected official) that came to a long time elected DFL  official demanding an immediate explanation as to why this awful victory had happened.  The demand was for materials to be sent, Federal Express, and all that -- Statistics, last minute campaign materials, clippings, analysis -- because the outcome of Paul Winning was unthinkable.  

Yes -- it is perhaps like PNAC, though I don't think the ideas are necessarily the same.  Both represent power centers -- one in each party.  

by Sara on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 01:38:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]


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