Question on a Netroots Plan to Combat Domestic Spying

bumped again

Hilzoy at the Washington Monthly makes an important point on the story about Bush spying on US citizens without a warrant.  It's simply illegal.  Now, here's my question.  Blogs, as Chris has shown, do not get into the media very often.  However, one of the ways to drive information into the media is to hire a polling firm and ask them to poll on a specific set of questions.  That's how ImpeachPAC did it.

We're considering doing our own polling as part of the MyDD mission for 2006.  If we raised money on MyDD to hire a professional poll on whether the President should be censured or impeached for breaking the law against spying on US citizens, would you donate, and would you ask your friends to donate?  This would be professionally done, with PR, a nice press release, media, the whole ball of wax.  And if it works, we'd like to do this several times a year, on several questions as news stories come up.  What do you think?  Is this something you'd like to be a part of?

Please vote in the poll below, and consider this an open thread on the question.

UPDATE: WOW! Within 90 minutes, on a lazy Friday before Christmas, we have 152 'yes' votes. Crooks and Liars folk, welcome!

UPDATE II: Up to 1100! This is a friggin movement!

UPDATE III: 1,868 yes votes. Very impressive.


Poll
Should MyDD run professional polls on censuring or impeaching Bush for spying on US citizens without a warrant?
No.
I would consider it.
Absolutely. Sign me UP!

Votes: 4919
Results : Vote Link : Polls

Display:


Coordinate with Move-On (3.00 / 0)


by jasmine on Fri Dec 16, 2005 at 06:45:36 PM EST

Better: Libertarian Party. (3.00 / 2)

Pincer.


Democratic Candidate, US Senate, Wisconsin 2012
by benmasel on Fri Dec 16, 2005 at 08:32:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Coordinate with Move-On (none / 0)

I disagree.  I think it IS time for MyDD to do this independently of MoveOn and other groups.

Their are valid reasons to stay autonomous.  I'll do what I can to get the word out.

This is exactly what I was asking for in my latest suggestions.  Thanks for even considering it.

DAGGER
by goplies on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:51:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Coordinate with Move-On (none / 0)

I agree.  I do not see the benefit of doing this with Moveon.  If Mydd were to do this outside of moveon or any other orgnization it would also help raise the credibility of mydd and other blogs outside of the MSM.
Mark
by Mark J. Bowers on Tue Dec 20, 2005 at 12:25:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

what about ACT? (none / 0)

it seems more altruistic - I like Move-On, but their technically bad commercials give pause.
by synthia on Thu Jan 05, 2006 at 02:44:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: what about ACT? (none / 0)

ACT no longer exists.
by Woodhouse on Sun Jan 08, 2006 at 05:09:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

FOIA Requests (3.00 / 1)

I've sent lots of international email, and made international phone calls, in the last three years. I'd sure like to find out if they were spying on me. For one thing, there's a class action suit in here.

Could we hook up with some organization with the necessary legal skills to help people find out this information? Seems like we ought to be able to get help from our Congresspeople but I don't know as I'd like to count on that...

by tatere on Fri Dec 16, 2005 at 07:29:11 PM EST

What to ask (3.00 / 3)

What to ask.

Here are a few suggestions:

General

In 2004, did you vote in the election for President between George W. Bush, the Republican, and John Kerry, the Democrat?

Don't ask them who they voted for - a portion will lie because dubya's down in the polls.

Generally speaking, do you feel that things here in this part of the country are going in the right direction, or do you feel things are off on the wrong track?

Personalities
I am going to read you the names of a few people active in politics.  I'd like you to rate your feelings toward each as either very positive, somewhat positive, neutral, somewhat negative, or very negative. If you don't know the name, just say so.

Issues
I am going to read you a list of issues facing the nation and in your community.  I'd like you to rate your opinion on each issue as either strongly agree, agree, neutral/don't know, disagree, and strongly disagree.

Demographics
Ideology - How would you describe your own political beliefs - very liberal, somewhat liberal, moderate, somewhat conservative, or very conservative?

Party Identification - How would you describe your point of view in terms of the political parties?  Would you say you are mostly Democratic, leaning Democratic, Independent, leaning Republican, mostly Republican?

Age - In what age group are you?[ read]- 18-24, 25-34, 35-49, 50-64, 65+

Union Household - Are you, or is anyone in this household, a member of a labor union?

Education - What is the last year of schooling that you have completed[do not read categories]- 1 - 11th grade, HS grad, Non-college post HS, Some college, College grad, Post-graduate school

The larger the sample (up to 1200) the better - and much more expensive. The crosstabs would be golden, though.

The more demographic questions, the better (and more expensive). Things like income and profession.

The more issues questions, the better (and more expensive).

Get the biggest sample and longest questionnaire you can afford. I'd bet $15,000 to $25,000 would be in the ball park.

 

543,895 votes
by Michael Bersin on Fri Dec 16, 2005 at 07:44:37 PM EST

Re: What to ask (3.00 / 2)

Prices here, for an outfit I used to work for run out of my old alma mater. $12.50 per completed interview, a thousand should do.
What's the difference between Vietnam and Iraq? Bush knew how to get out of Vietnam.
by strandedlad on Fri Dec 16, 2005 at 09:45:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What to ask (3.00 / 1)

The prices for polling usually runs about $1000 for the first question, and about $500 for every question after that.

That is the ballpark figure that was thrown around before the "Impeach bush" polls were actually taken up as a cause by afterdowningstreet.org

The prices vary a bit by pollsters, but not too much. Any less money and the samples are too small to be credible.

Guarenteed to be plastered all over the Internet: Drinking Liberally in New Milford
by Connecticut Man1 on Fri Dec 16, 2005 at 11:27:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Pricing (none / 0)

Important to keep in mind that you aren't going to be paying for just the base question of whether to centure or impeach, or whatever the wording comes out to be.

In order for the poll to have any statistical validity, you'll also need demographic questions such as male / female, age group, political leanings, etc.

by Politicalhack06 on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 04:11:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What to ask (none / 0)

"I'd bet $15,000 to $25,000 would be in the ball park."

Good estimate.

by Politicalhack06 on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 04:14:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I would contribute money... (3.00 / 2)

I would contribute money to raise funds for this project.
Vox Mia -- Adding My Voice to the Chorus
by bedobe on Fri Dec 16, 2005 at 07:59:30 PM EST

Re: I would contribute money... (none / 0)

same
by Winston Smith on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 10:31:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'd gladly pay $5.01 (none / 0)

I think you should call up Pat Caddell -- the most brilliant pollster alive -- and have him write the questions. Then make SURE YOU CONTACT A PROGRESSIVE pollster/polling firm to give your money too. I liked the impeachpac work, but I didn't like that they gave their money to zogby.

Create the fund, set up a bat or hammer and I'll give you five bucks. And one cent.

by janfrel on Fri Dec 16, 2005 at 08:28:28 PM EST

Pat Cadell Is Satan (none / 0)

And more to the point, he's NOT the most brilliant pollster alive.

In fact, science may help us more than art, more than any "brilliant" pollster.  For example, both PIPA and Retro Poll have used questions about knowledge to get valuable information about the relationship between knowledge vs. false belief and political attitudes.

by Paul Rosenberg on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:19:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

where to donate? (3.00 / 1)

just point me there and I'll give.  just say go.
by benchcoat on Fri Dec 16, 2005 at 08:40:51 PM EST

contibuting to poll (3.00 / 1)

Well,  donating is not as much fun as waging war on Christmas, but in a week I'll be out of business and will need some other place to send my money now that all those Quaker Seniors terrorist groups have been put out of business.
by mdm8360 on Fri Dec 16, 2005 at 11:11:30 PM EST

WOW (3.00 / 1)

What a unique and thoughtful idea to get to the MSM!!!
by NvDem on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:48:04 AM EST

I'll donate as best I can (none / 0)

and try to get others to give. You ready to start right now, or will you email me? I'm on and off the net lately.
by cotterperson on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:49:52 AM EST

I'll donate $100. (none / 0)

My wife will kill me, but there it is.
by ogre on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 02:20:41 AM EST

Re: I'll donate $100. (none / 0)

My wife will kill me for $20, but count me in too.
Can we do this AFTER the Christmas bills come in : )

BlueNC - Progressive NC Politics
by Robert P on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 11:18:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I'd definitely be willing to donate! (none / 0)

Even though I'm a poor college student and have had to carefully provision my meager salary (especially considering the holiday season), I'd be more than happy to contribute to the best of my abilities!

Sign ME up!

by freakyfrenchie on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 03:56:09 AM EST

Costs and donations (none / 0)

I wonder if it would be a good idea to find out how much it costs per interview and then make the pitch for donations by asking people to "sponsor" an interview.  I think it would make the donor feel like an active participant in the process.  Of course you could donate as much as you wanted or sponsor multiple interviews, but it might be a good way to draw in people who might be on the fence.

by pfoorion on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 10:41:15 AM EST

I am in a distinct minority here (3.00 / 0)

Being one of 37 No votes. And no doubt some of those are Wingnut Trolls. But Impeachment is not an appropriate political tool. It was wrong when they impeached Andrew Johnson, it was wrong when they impeached Bill Clinton. Attempts to criminalize politics are dead wrong.

Don't get me wrong, I can "Buck Fush" with the best of them, but given a Republican controlled House you are not going to get impeachment and with a Republican controlled Senate you are not going to get conviction and absent that blowing thousands of dollars on "professionally done, with PR, a nice press release, media, the whole ball of wax." polling efforts is just wanking off while writing a couple of checks for consultants.

"Impeach Bush, impeach him now" is a good tag line for Brad DeLong, and a sentiment we can all get behind when venting. But as for putting good money into a quixotic venture going nowhere you can count me out.

Emasculate Bush by getting a Democratic Majority in 2006. That would be the necessary first step to impeachment anyhow.

And what could would polling do unless you were push polling? Achieving political gains through polling is what sleazes like Frank Luntz do. MyDD does not need to go down the Luntzway.

by Bruce Webb on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 10:58:28 AM EST

Re: I am in a distinct minority here (none / 0)

Fair point, but the wording in Matt's post is "censured or impeached." If one believes that Bush has probably broken the law, it's not a huge step to argue that Bush should at least be censured by Congress.

Also, though I don't want to put words in Matt's mouth, I think that the general strategy is as relevant as the particular question asked.

by TomGilpin on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 11:08:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I am in a distinct minority here (3.00 / 1)

  1. Impeachment is entirely appropriate for Bush.  It was wrong in the cases of Johnson and Clinton, I agree, but I don't think that's very relevant.  Bush should be impeached for more reasons than all other presidents I can think of put together.

  2. Yes, a Democratic Congress is a pre-requisite for impeachment, but it is not a sufficient condition.  If we want impeachment, or even censure, we need to work both for a Democratic Congress after the 2006 election, and a political climate once they come in, that makes it a realistic possibility.  Polls like this would be part of that.

by cos on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 11:18:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

cos how do polls move sentiment? (3.00 / 1)

That is my underlying question. Polls should reveal opinions and not shape them. Or they are really not polls.

Now you can make an argument that press presentations of Bush popularity were not exactly in line with his steadily declining poll numbers (and if I linked any more to Prof Pollkatz: Bush Approval he would have to put me on retainer) but the answer to that is not commissioning another poll, it is pointing out the results of the ones that exist.

I don't disagree with the sentiment, or for that matter the fact that Bush has seriously broken his oath to uphold the Constitution. But throwing a few thousand dollars towards MyDD and a PR effort seems to me to be a serious waste of time and money.

At one point Bush sat at 90% approval, now he is sub 40% in most polls, and little to any of that was the result of fancy media campaigns.

Speak Truth to Power. That's the ticket.

by Bruce Webb on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:29:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: cos how do polls move sentiment? (none / 0)

They may or may not, but that's beside the point.  Did you actually read the top level post here?  The main reason for doing a poll is explained: It's a hook to get media attention onto an issue.  It works.

by cos on Wed Dec 21, 2005 at 07:42:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I am in a distinct minority here (3.00 / 1)

Push polling is to plant a seed in the mind of the pollee through the question asked and how they are asked.  I think what Rove and Co did in push polling was wrong because the seed was a false one.  I don't think it inappropriate to ask people a fair question that gets them to think.  But that was not the real intent of the poll suggestion.  You don't have to push poll to get something out of a poll.  Ask the right questions and then after the fact educate them on the issue at hand.  Just ask the right fair questions, see where people stand, let them see where others stand, and then push the issue out of the blogosphere and into the mainstream.  We all know too many polls simply don't ask the right set of questions and force people, if they answer, to potentially pick an answer that can be twisted any old way the viewer chooses.

Whatever will get people motivated and get the M$M to talk about an issue, even if for a few moments, is money well spent.  Impeachment is a fair result for Bush.  We can't afford three more years, waiting is...well it is an option...it just isn't a very good one.  He lied to take us to war (that has to be illegal somewhere along the line...fraud on Congress), lied about the intelligence, has put cronies in positions of power, etc, etc.  It may be that what he did was legal, technically, somehow.  But it won't matter if enough people turn against him on this issue.  Right now what matters is keeping the ball rolling and not allowing him to turn the tide.  Show them the slippery slope and maybe they'll squint their eyes long enough to see the gutter at the bottom where Bush likes to roll around in the mud with Rove.  It should be done appropriately, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with spending money on it.

Should the President be all powerful?  Should there be checks and balances on his power?

Fair questions, I think not misleading, and they go to the core of much of what Bush and Co use against this country.  They believe he is all powerful (now that he is a Republican) and can decide what is torture, what is legal and what is not, and what is secret.  The question is do regular Americans believe it and do they ever ask themselves that question.  Should they be asking that question of themselves right now?

"So this is how liberty dies...to thunderous applause." Padme, Star Wars Episode III
by jrflorida on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 04:28:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I am in a distinct minority here (none / 0)

I don't beleive that you are in the minority in terms of the impeachment issue, or at least I want to believe this.  It is also my belief that an impeachment of Bush is not the way to go.  I believe that far too often in recent years disagreements have mounted and put people into positions where they act as though impeachment is the only option.  

However, the important point here is not whether or not impeachment is a legitmate option, but whether or not mydd should run professional polls.

Mark
by Mark J. Bowers on Tue Dec 20, 2005 at 12:28:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes (none / 0)

I think that this is a great idea, and I'd definitely contribute.

Polling results are (1) easily packaged for public consumption (2) entertaining to the news consumer. Lamentably, those criteria drive the content of the CNN/networks/Fox oligarchy - they follow naturally from the divorce of TV news from the public interest (which, of course, is a huge issue itself) - but given that status quo, it makes a lot of sense to package our own arguments accordingly.  

by TomGilpin on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 11:04:27 AM EST

Better use for the money (3.00 / 1)

I'm also in the minority who think pushing for impeachment, or talking up via (what is essentially) a push poll is not an optimal strategy.

What I think is needed is a strong advertising campaign tying the White House's illegal activities to the corruption in congress. They need to be linked in people's minds so that a "clean sweep" theme can be used in 2006. This way anger at the admin will be directed at the only outlet, the mid-term elections. We can already see signs of this as unknown Dem newcomers get real notice as viable candidates. Just today there is a human interest story (with photo) of Duckworth in the NY Times.

A strong message like "the only way to rein in a runaway White House over the next three years is to change the balance in congress" would be the best approach, in my opinion.

Every 20 years or so the "clean sweep" theme resonates, this seems like the time. Impeachment is a non-starter and may be taken by some as disrespectful of the office of president. These are the "support our president" voters that are just the ones we need to swing.

---Policies not Politics
Daily Quiet Image
by rdf on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 11:43:35 AM EST

Impeachment (3.00 / 1)

Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld should be impeached, and we do NOT have to wait! If the public outcry is loud enough, the wingnuts will be forced to follow. They are acutely aware that Bush has hurt their political future, and hopefully, if we can solve the Diebold fraud issue, then 2006 will be a landslide for the Democrats. I have been yelling about impeachment since the stolen 2000 elections...and then they did it again in 2004. There are SO MANY reasons to impeach!!!
by chharriett on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 11:57:04 AM EST

Great! But We're Going To Need The Right To Vote (none / 0)

Unless we deal w/the electronic voting machines, we won't have a democracy, no matter who gets impeached.

Censure, or impeachment is a nice fantasy, as is a "Democratic Congress", but don't forget who actually counts the votes...

by XXXOOOXXX on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 03:33:14 PM EST

aravosis has some action items going as well (none / 0)

and he makes an excellent point - congress shouldn't even look at the P.A.T.R.I.O.T. act until we get answers about this spying stuff.

http://americablog.blogspot.com/2005/12/action-alerts-tell-congress-to-kill.html

he's got lots of great info on the subject.


by Cedwyn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 04:31:37 PM EST

nobody wants impeachment (none / 0)

its a bad memory and this country doesn't want to relive it or repeat it or create a habit of it.

silly poll question.

by aiko on Sun Dec 18, 2005 at 08:19:24 AM EST

Partisan polling (3.00 / 1)

I think it's a good idea but only if you get a partner that is non-partisan, say a libertarian think tank or something like it. You will have a hard time getting media coverage of any poll, let alone a partisan poll (no matter the reputation of the firm doing the polling).

Maybe you can speak with one of the public policy think tanks that deal with Constitutional issues and set up a nonpartisan funding mechanism for the blogosphere (and beyond). A handful of libertarian bloggers participating in the funding drive would make any news reports on the polling contain more "tech saavy, youth" characterizations rather than "partisan attack" characterizations.

'The Constitution Project: Initiative on Liberty and Security' based at Georgetown's Public Policy Institute would be a perfect match. Bob Barr is no lefty and he gets lots of airtime as an expert on privacy and 4th Amendment matters. He sits on the Liberty and Security initiative board.

http://www.constitutionproject.org/libertyandsecurity/index.cfm?categoryId=3

"Nothing seems to embarrass the political class today." - Bill Moyers
by joejoejoe on Sun Dec 18, 2005 at 08:38:32 AM EST

Depends on the purpose (3.00 / 1)

If the purpose of impeachment is political or vengeful in nature then it serves no purpose.  Not only is it petty but I would also like to remind Democrats of this little tidbit:

December 21, 1998
In the wake of his impeachment, President Clinton's approval level with the voters leaps 10 points to a personal all-time high of 73 per cent in a Gallup poll. Sixty-eight per cent believe the Senate should not convict Mr Clinton in the pending impeachment trial, while support for resignation falls to 30 per cent. Other polls confirm the trend.

If the puropse of impeachment is justice then there are certain other steps that need to be taken first.  Maybe poll questions should include:

Should Congress create investigative committees?

Should a special prosecutor be appointed to look into the alleged PATRIOT Act wrongdoings?

Which political party is more likely to take these steps, Democrat or Republican?

Are you more or less likely to vote for a candidate in the 2006 elections who promises to take these steps?

Should the President be impeached if investigation suggests he may have broken the law?

by bjtravgwu on Mon Dec 19, 2005 at 03:34:55 AM EST

The timing is critical (3.00 / 1)

Of course it seems very unlikely we will succeed. However, it is just possible that his approval could go so low that enough Republicans could leap off the sinking ship to give us President Cheney.

In any case, we want the maximum momentum for the 2006 (and/or 2008?) election(s).

by Hong Kong Chevy on Mon Dec 19, 2005 at 03:52:25 PM EST

Impeachment? Wrong target (none / 0)

A lot of people are "Hot to trot" to impeach GWB for all kinds of malfeasance, nonfeasance, high crimes and misdemeanors, et cetera - of all of which he is guilty as sin, and that ain't the half of it - but!  If you impeach Bu$h and successfully remove him because of the carrion reek of his maladministration, what do you get???  You get "President Cheney," that's what you get!  So, if you go the Agnew route, and remove Cheney first, either by impeachment or by making things so hot for him that he decides to resign for "Reasons of Health," then what do you get?  Do you even get a Presidential appointment of a veep of the caliber of a Ford?  HELL NO!  Not out of Bu$h you don't!  When the Country demanded a moderate legal beagle for a seat on the "Supreme" Court, what did he give us?  First Miers, a totally unqualified place-holder, and then when her ignorance and subservience began to surface, and she withdrew, he gave us a potent right-wing ideologue in the person of Alito!  So, if Cheney ahould happen to quit, it's odds-on that Bu$h'd name Condi Rice as veep!  (That's REAL Impeachment Insurance!  He could rape babies in public and not be in danger of removal, because Southern Senators will vote to allow a black woman in the highest office of the land the day after Satan opens an ice-skating rink on the dorsal surface of Hell!)  No, like it or not, we're stuck with Bu$h for another three years - but if we can overcome the natural advantage the right-wingers have in Diebold, ES&S and Sequoia voting machines, all of which can be hacked to produce results that the voters did not intend, and get such a groundswell of Democratic votes as to return the Congress to sanity, maybe things won't continue on the present disastrous course.  BUT - yes, we have to get Cheney out;  why?  because Bu$h has never finished a job in his life;  if we can get a Democratic Congress, Bu$h is just likely to resign and inflict Cheney on us  -  and how do you like that??  Or worse even - if the unthinkable should happen and Bu$h quits and Cheney likewise, we're stuck with Hastert, and "President Hastert" is a recipe for disaster!! Yes, get Cheney out - and then pull all the military out of the various adventures, depend on the Athabasca sands and the Colorado oil shales - and HEMP for our fuel needs, and let the Middle East fall under the purview of the Chinese, who are going to be wanting their oil anyway.
I never thought, in my wildest dreams, that I would advocate "Isolationism" as a viable course for the US, but getting out of NAFTA, CAFTA, and the WTO, and returning to protectionism via sensible tariffs, and the re-introduction of the American System of economic action seems to be the only course which can halt our headlong rush toward third world status.   Perhaps we can even get a new worldwide fiscal policy similar to, or modelled on, the old "Bretton Woods" system of fixed exchange rates  -  it's worth looking into, for sure.  We need a return to some fixed monetary standard.  Not necessarily gold;  I actually recommend Titanium as a coinage metal.  It is high-value, it is beautiful, and it is nearly impervious to wear!  It's a thought, anyway.  But again - make things hot for Bu$h all during the next year until the elections! Demand honesty and a halt to disenfranchisement of voters, and try to make sure that we get a Democratic Congress.  Then keep up the pressure on Bu$h so that he is totally incapable of governing.  We can stand a year  or so of Condi, if it comes to that - - -
by tedeger on Fri Dec 23, 2005 at 12:47:18 PM EST

Re: Impeachment? Wrong target (none / 0)

I'm all for impeachment, have signed every petition and participated in every e-mail campaign I can find. The thing to keep in mind is to be careful what you wish for. Say we get Bush and Cheney breaking rocks in Ft. Leavenworth. From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_line_of_succession#Current_order: the next few in the line of succession are:
  1. Speaker of the House of Representatives (J. Dennis Hastert)
  2. President pro tempore of the Senate (Ted Stevens)
  3. Secretary of State (Condoleezza Rice)
  4. Secretary of the Treasury (John W. Snow)
  5. Secretary of Defense (Donald H. Rumsfeld)
  6. Attorney General (Alberto Gonzales)
If Stevens, Rice, Rumsfeld or Gonzales ended up with the presidency, I'd leave the country immediately. With Hastert and Snow, I'd pack bags and keep my passport on me. That said, I think the most likely outcome of impeachment/censure proceedings would be to further splinter the Republican Congress, and to increase the interesting conservative-liberal coalitions that are forming, leaving the pseudocons in a vacuum for the '06 elections.
Dennis Kucinich, Progressive Democrat for President in 2008
by hoose on Mon Dec 26, 2005 at 04:48:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Impeachment? Wrong target (none / 0)

You'd leave the country if Stevens were in, but not Bush?  I live in Alaska. Stevens may have a hot temper, and I've fought him for years on drilling in the Arctic: but he's in my mind a better man than Bush. For example, when Jeffords defected, and the other Pubbies were screaming and yelling and calling him a traitor, Stevens said he knew Jeffords and was sure Jeffords' move was driven by his principles. Stevens also marched once in an ERA parade. It's true! He has a liberal wife, I think that's what that was about.

I can think of many people I'd rather see as president than Ted Stevens, but actually I think any of the people in the line of succession would be better than Bush, because a sort of magic shield has been erected around Bush and these others don't have it...they'd get eaten alive by the press, especially after a successful impeachment.

And by the way, in answer to another comment, no it ISN'T enough to work towards a Democratic majority. Haven't you people figured out that the MACHINES ARE RIGGED?  They were rigged in Georgia in 2002 and rigged throughout the country, not everywhere but in several states, in 2004.  The exit polls showing that Kerry won were posted as late as 1 am, (after which the polls magically changed): and that, combined with hundreds of voters complaining that they tried to vote for Kerry but on reviewing their electronic ballots, saw that their votes had changed to Bush - do you think the machines decided to do that on their own? Why was this not pursued? How many machines were CORRECTLY rigged to change the votes to Bush after a fifteen minute time lapse?

by brambling on Tue Jan 10, 2006 at 04:15:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Polling? (3.00 / 1)

Yes, I believe a poll is a very good idea.  However, hiring a polling firm can be

  1. expensive

  2. not very productive, because of the danger of the pollsters imposing their own ideas of what the poll "should" say - and believe it, there is a LOT of that - and

  3. actually not very helpful, in the long run, because of the fact that pollsters have their own agendas; whether said agenda fits the desire of the hirer or not is moot; it exists, and there is NO WAY to counter it;  you could easily pay big money for no results.

SO: here is what I propose.  It sounds simplistic; it sounds almost impossible of accomplishment, but IF we could do it, it MIGHT really MEAN SOMETHING!!!

First;  instead of hiring a professional pollster to do what he/she THINKS you want, why not get a GROUP of radicals, such as those of us who post on this site,to do two things:

  1. Call people selected at random out of the local 'phone book, and ask them a series of questions, preferably not over ten.  They should be of the "Yes or No" variety, or of the "How much impact" variety.  They should NOT be of the "Have you stopped beating your wife yet" variety, which entirely too many of the "Mail Questionnaires" I receive almost daily are.  They should be generated by your staff, and collated by the same, after being sent to you by email.  They can be any number, depending on the individual initiative of the poster.

  2. Be willing to be completely honest in reporting the answers they get, to the extent of willingness to notarize their results and send them to you via snail mail if desired; in other words, a factual poll, with no axe to grind other than the one which cuts to the bone of truth.

True, some trolls and orks will try to take  advantage of this effort, but I believe that the honest efforts of the majority of people will drown them out.  (and you can mostly tell who they are anyway) Besides, even orks will have a hard time affirming, "Under penalty of perjury" that their invented results are true.  The randomization factor is taken care of by opening the 'phone book and pointing.  You do not need fancy demographic posturing; real random results are obtained by doing something "At random!"  I'll bet if you did this, you might be amazed at what a real cross-section of the people would give you.  BUT: you'd have to construct the questions carefully, and make sure that your volunteer pollsters asked those questions and no others, and showed no bias while doing so. (People like to be agreeable, and will, in spite of everything, give the answer they think their pollster wants.  You have to watch out for that.)

It's worth a try; but do you have the resources needed to do it up properly?

by tedeger on Fri Dec 23, 2005 at 04:25:18 PM EST

Impeachment (none / 0)

I think we have to impreach Cheney, too. Impeaching Bush alone is not enough.
by jtmonkeyisland on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 12:59:23 AM EST

Impeach Bush? (none / 0)

That would be a terrific start.  Then I'd like to see him indicted, convicted on all counts, and imprisoned.
by driller81 on Sun Jan 08, 2006 at 11:44:22 AM EST


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