Reality Creeping Into the Gated Community?

After Paul Hackett nearly pulled off the upset of the decade on August 2nd, here at MyDD the prevailing wisdom was that rural voters were ripe for a switch back to the Democratic Party. As Jerome wrote:
Adams, Brown, and Pike are rural counties, not suburban or exurban. They are no where close to urban areas. Adams is 90% rural, Brown and Pike are 80% rural. Gains were made in Clermont and Warren, but no where near the level that was made in the rural areas of the CD. It's in rural America, not the suburbs or exurbs, where the opening is there for Democrats to make gains, as Hackett proved. That we should battle them everywhere is a given, but to overlook the gains in the rural counties as a lesson going forward is inexcusable, much less to not even recognize it.
The urban-rural alliance also makes sense on a gut level. Living in rural areas is similar to urban areas in one extremely important aspect: it's real. The suburbs, by contrast, are the antithesis of reality. In the suburbs, people are sheltered from all of the things that make urban and rural areas real: actual diversity, real connection to the weather, immediate economic impact of recessions, difficulty accessing quality education and health care, military service as sometimes the only way to find a job, etc. It is the difference between the reality-based community and the gated community. Of course Democras can reach rural voters--rural voters are still forced to live in reality.

However, in a pattern that mirrors Bush's decline among his own conservative base (see the third graphic fromt he top on the right), the 2005 elections showed significant weakness for Republicans in many suburban areas. Most prominently, in Virginia, Kaine rocked the northern suburbs:

An anti-Republican sentiment spread across Northern Virginia yesterday as voters overwhelmingly cast their ballots for Democrats, sweeping aside the traditional Virginia formula in which Republicans carry the outer suburbs and Democrats win the inner ones.

In winning the election for governor, Lt. Gov. Timothy M. Kaine (D) took Loudoun and Prince William counties, something Mark R. Warner (D) couldn't accomplish when he was elected governor four years ago. Kaine also received nearly three in four votes in Arlington and seven in 10 in Alexandria.

In uber-suburban Long Island, Republicans also stank up the joint:
The Democrats' dramatic gains in Tuesday's election signal the end of decades of Republican domination of Long Island politics, experts in both parties say.

"The days of monolithic Republican control are over," said John V.N. Klein, a former GOP Suffolk County executive. "In the past when this kind of thing happened, I'd say give it a couple of elections and we'll be back in charge again. We can't count on that anymore."(...)

While Democrats Bill Clinton and John Kerry have won Long Island in their presidential bids, local Democrats for the first time Tuesday consolidated their gains - winning control of the legislatures in both counties as well as the offices of county executive and district attorney.

We also saw the same pattern in Philadelphia, where I promise Democrats will sweep the suburbs in 2006.

Looking at these three examples, what we are seeing right now might be more of a Northeastern trend than anything else. However, it is enough to suggest that reality is slowly creeping into the gated community, where voting Republican may no longer be just as guaranteed as everyone driving an SUV and having the same color mailbox. If Republicans continue to bleed these suburban and exurban voters, we will have a major realignment on our hands come 2006.



Display:


Too snarky (none / 0)

We all live in reality.  The snarky "holier than thou" feel of this post came across like it was written by a Republican.

Other than that, glad to see Democratic gains everywhere.

by Mark Matson on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 02:37:35 PM EST

Re: Too snarky (3.00 / 2)

I absolutely agree. Where do you get off taking pot-shots at the "phonies" living in the suburbs? I'd say my parents, living in a cozy suburb, growing up in poverty and taking an education halfway across the world to make something of their lives dont deserve that kind of holier than thou treatment.
Its all reality, though the suburbs might be more insulated from social injustices. Minorities in the suburbs fight discrimination, health care is a problem, gas prices are a problem, slow job markets are a problem. I guess that's not "real" though, so I'll tell my family to scurry back to the suburuban gated community mansion and laugh at the real people.
by AC4508 on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 02:46:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

urban-rural alliance (none / 0)

that is exactly what we're shooting for here in TX-06.  we've got a guy who - very much like hackett - will be running in the very rural southern counties in this district.  he is already making a ton of headway in ellis county, which is basically the heart of the district.

Visit us at TexasKAOS, where we're taking Texas back!
by annatopia on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 02:41:55 PM EST

Taking Issue (3.00 / 1)

I have two issues with what you write.

  1. That's far from a Northeastern trend.  In my state of Minnesota, Democrats knocked off incumbents in the suburbs during the 2004 elections for state house.  Some were quite startling.  Kerry carried many suburbs previously thought to be Republican strongholds, such as Edina and Eagan.  In fact, there's a special election in two weeks to fill a state senate seat.  This is a suburban district which Kerry won by 1%, and we can win.  You should contribute to Terri Bonoff's campaign if you are able.

  2. The suburbs do have real problems.  Crowded class sizes, assaults on civil liberties, environmental pollution and unnecessary wars affect suburban voters as much as anyone.

by sparkyfry on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 02:43:21 PM EST

Re: Taking Issue (none / 0)

Thanks, sparkyfry, for the tip on Terri Bonoff.  I grew up in Northern Minnesota so I have an affinity for the DFL.  I just contributed $50.
by CADem on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 03:18:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Taking Issue (none / 0)

Cool!  This has already been my most successful fundraising effort.  :-)
by sparkyfry on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 03:27:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Suburbs (none / 0)

Having grown up in the suburbs and now being back to living there, I can tell you that the suburbs are just as real as anywhere else. People here worry about many of the same things that people everywhere else do -- property taxes, education, health care.

We also worry about some things urban voters probably don't think of as much, but are very real: suburban sprawl, land use, the price of gas.

As for gated communities? Leave Philly and drive out here to Chester County (or hop on the R5). You won't find too many "gated communities" here. Yes, you'll find plenty of rich people, but you'll also find a whole lot more middle-class and working class people. Condescension won't get them voting Democratic; listening to their needs and addressing them will.

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by LiberalFromPA on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 02:53:47 PM EST

Re: Suburbs (none / 0)

Yeah, I don't think too many people in the suburbs are leading fairy-tale lives... maybe it means you struggle with a bloated adjustable-rate mortgage instead of the rent, and you struggle with traffic instead of mass transit, and you struggle with a crappy job you can't leave because of the health care benefits instead of not having health care benefits at all. But if the "wrong track" numbers in polls, or less tangible measures of personal satisfaction are any indication, it seems there's a lot of suburbanites who aren't very pleased with their day-to-day realities either.

Probably the biggest quality of life issue of all for the burbs (which dovetails with sprawl, land use, and gas prices) is traffic. That was instrumental in the defeat of I-912 here in Washington (a right-wing power-grab to rollback the new supplemental gas tax passed by the legislature). The measure failed by a wide margin in King County where Seattle is, but it also failed further out in the burbs, in Pierce and Snohomish Counties. I think the suburb dwellers are more and more starting to realize that government isn't always the problem, and with infrastructure it's in fact usually the solution... or at least they're rational enough to realize that saving 50 cents per tank of gas doesn't justify spending extra hours in traffic each week.

by Crazy Vaclav on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 03:27:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Suburbs (none / 0)

Condescension won't get them voting Democratic; listening to their needs and addressing them will.

Nicely put.

by sparkyfry on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 03:28:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

i have to respectfully disagree (none / 0)

having grown up in a rural community, lived part of my life in an urban area, and now residing in the burbs, i have to disagree.

now i'm not tryin to start a fight here or anything, so please don't take this the wrong way, but folks living in the burbs do not have the same immediate concerns that folks in rural and urban areas do.  sure, there are some crossover concerns, but, well, just read on...

if you go into urban areas, the main concern is usually crime and/or race relations.  and most people living in urban areas are renters (granted this isn't true of all major cities, as some are doing the "push the black folk out of town to rejuvenate downtown" redevelopement crap), so they couldn't care less about property taxes.  they are also largely minority in many cases, and their concerns about racial equality are not generally shared by the mighty white burbs.  urban-dwellers are also concerned with issues like public transportation, as many of them are living in poverty. they're concerned about social services like WIC, AFDC, medicare/medicaid, and social security.  they are concerned about their failing schools (this is where one issue may cross over).

go the burbs and you'll find that they are indeed concerned with property taxes, gas prices (after all they are commuters for the most part), and failing school systems.  social security, medicare/medicaid, WIC, AFDC are all VERY LOW on the suburban priority list.  and most suburbanites (caucasian ones in particular) couldn't care less about the issue of race in america, as long as there's no blacks or mexicans living on their block.

go to a rural area and you'll find they are also very concerned about social services.  with many rural dwellars depending on farm subsidies, WIC, medicare/medicaid, and social security, they have a lot in common with the urban dwellers. they also share a common trait with the urbanites, which is that they don't like smoke blown up their ass. they take a very similar outlook on politcs as the urban dwellars.

now granted there are exceptions to these points i've mentioned, for example, obviously i'm not asserting that all suburbanites are racists.  but i think the meat of this comment and the post in question are entirely accurate.    

Visit us at TexasKAOS, where we're taking Texas back!
by annatopia on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 03:35:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: i have to respectfully disagree (3.00 / 1)

I don't presume to speak for LiberalfromPA, but I think his/her point wasn't that urbanites and suburbanites have the same problems (and you did an excellent job of illuminating how different their respective sets of problems are). Instead, the point (I think) is that everyone, regardless of where they live, has a multitude of problems in their lives and that no one (whether urban, suburban, or rural) is living in some sort of pastel-colored Stepford bubble, and that no one seems very happy with their own particular realities.

Just because suburbanites' problems tend not to be quite so life-or-death doesn't mean that they're somehow divorced from reality. (I'm sure many suburbanites (assuming that suburbanites means all suburbs, not just the McMansions which are just a small percentage of the burbs) are acutely aware that they're one or two missed paychecks away from financial wipeout.) And I think that some of the hope we can take from Tuesday is that people all across the urban/suburban/rural spectrum are starting to realize that good government can and does play a role in improving those realities.

by Crazy Vaclav on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 04:21:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

thanks for getting my point (none / 0)

and i totally see where you're coming from.

but i do think that there are some pockets of the burbs that really are kinda divorced from reality.  i think the gated community referenced in the post is a pretty specific example of this.  in my view, the ones "divorced from reality" are usually largely caucasian, upper middle class suburbanites.  not to say they don't have problems, but that their concerns seem more superficial to me.

i'm probably not doing a good job of explaining it, but i think you get my drift.

Visit us at TexasKAOS, where we're taking Texas back!
by annatopia on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 04:30:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: thanks for getting my point (none / 0)

Wow, you're fast. And your drift is gotten. Um, maybe we could say the concerns of the McMansion folks tend to be more 'existential' in nature, the kind of problems that require all the stuff lower on Maslow's hierarchy (food, shelter) to have already been met first.

My response is, well, that's fine and great as long as it gets them to vote Democratic. If their concern isn't "How am I going to eat tomorrow?" but "How am I going to make sure that my kids have the same potential for economic success that I did?" that's still great, so long as they don't answer the question with "tax cuts" but rather "better funding for higher education, more funding for scientific R&D, a fiscal policy that isn't putting the government on the road to bankruptcy, a government that's a true meritocracy instead of a crony network, bla bla bla."

by Crazy Vaclav on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 04:41:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

perfect (none / 0)

yes, i think you've hit on the specific demographic i was talking about.  thanks.
Visit us at TexasKAOS, where we're taking Texas back!
by annatopia on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 04:42:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: thanks for getting my point (none / 0)

I'm returning a little late to the discussion, but let me add 2 more cents anyway.

in my view, the ones "divorced from reality" are usually largely caucasian, upper middle class suburbanites.

In my view, that's not the case. I've lived in urban areas as well, and I found plenty of rich folks who were "divorced form reality". And I've found this type in urban areas all over the US. They do tend to be caucasian, but their attitudes are often the same as those in the 'burbs. They may be less sheltered than their suburban counterparts, but they still have the same mindset.

However, my point wasn't that these people don't exist in the suburbs. My point was that these people do not represent the majority of suburbanites. Having been raised in the suburbs, I know few people who are sheltered from life's basic problems. Chris's sweeping generalization of suburbanites makes me wonder where he grew up. I'd be surprised if he was raised in a middle or working-class suburb.

I shouldn't be surprised. I do get a sense of "urban arrogance" from some of the top liberal blogs, and perhaps that's because Democrats are concentrated in urban areas. I don't know. But I do know that Chris's generalization is wrong.

TAKE BACK OUR PARTY: Democracy Bonds
by LiberalFromPA on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 08:47:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: i have to respectfully disagree (none / 0)

I have to disagree with you, Anna. I've lived in all three areas, inner-city, Michigan dairy farm, and suburbs (both near and far).

No one on a farm worries where their next meal comes from as do BOTH city and suburbs. Loss of a job means disaster. That's the REAL suburbs, not the Ozzie and Harriet image that MIGHT be real in upscale suburbs but in the vast white-collar and blue-collar bedroom communities everyone lives a month away from being bankrupt. Ok, six months with unemployment compensation. Suburbanites see themselves as living in the city but without crime and political corruption. (They're actually wrong on both points).

I'll grant you there are farms and there are farms. But, by and large, farmers that were economically conservative, keeping debt and expenses low, worry about poverty (in the sense of no college, no new clothes, no new shoes, no new(er) car), but not losing the farm and definitely not going hungry. Even in the years of lowest agricultural prices, their personal tables bulge with homegrown vegetables, fruits, milk, homebaked bread and locally raised and slaughtered meat (beats the HELL out what you can buy in the suburbs). But everyone works. Everyone that is old enough and well enough to stand upright.

The city is a pit.

by antiHyde on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 04:38:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Forgot to say (none / 0)

That you are wrong on race as well. Both black families on my block moved away, but in at least one case it was to move out of state for a job, not racism. I knew the family well as my grandkids went to school and church with his kids. And half the block are Hispanic (BTW, I'm not). At least a third are Asian. In fact, it's the WASPs that are the local pains-in-the ass. I'd trade them all for honest neighborly blacks, Latinos, Indians, Filipinos, and Chinese ANY day.
by antiHyde on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 04:44:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

LOL (none / 0)

WASPS annoy me.  =)  and again, you're talking about your blue collar neighborhoods.  i do think that they share our concerns.  it's the mcmansion-dwellers that piss me off.
Visit us at TexasKAOS, where we're taking Texas back!
by annatopia on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 04:50:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

oh and one more thing on race (none / 0)

i think depending on which part of the country you live in, that i am right about race.  for example, i have lived in georgia, florida, alabama, and texas, and the majority of suburbanites i encountered really hate people that aren't white.  it didn't matter if the hater was blue or white collar.  the only thing was that they showed (or masked) their hatred/resentment in different degrees.

now i don't know if folks are more enlightened in other places, but that's the sense i get when i travel around the country.  and yes, i know racism is everywhere, it just seems more prevalent in some places.

i should also say that i don't think that contradicts the example you gave.  

Visit us at TexasKAOS, where we're taking Texas back!
by annatopia on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 04:53:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: oh and one more thing on race (none / 0)

I'll concede this point, considering what my daughter has told me about Alabama. I'll also quote a Texan friend who was born in Texas, moved to Michigan, then Illinois, then back to Texas. "When I was a boy in Texas, I played with brown boys and black boys. No one told me that was wrong until I moved to Michigan."  But really, people don't break out the For Sale sign anymore when they see a dark face. The Times they ARE a-changing.
by antiHyde on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 09:57:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Other hatreds (none / 0)

Again, late post, but one anecodte.

My (Indian) cousin used to live in the suburbs of Austin. His housemate was a single white male.

Their neighbor was a 20-something white male. He always gave my cousin dirty looks, never waved back 'hi' when my cousin did. My cousin wondered if it was racism, but then his white roommate had the same experience, so they chalked it up to the guy being an asshole.

Then both my cousin and his housemate got girlfriends, and the girls were coming in and out of the house. The neighbor now used to smile and wave at them. And my cousin's girlfriend was white.

So the only answer to his strange behavior was homophobia.

TAKE BACK OUR PARTY: Democracy Bonds
by LiberalFromPA on Fri Nov 11, 2005 at 12:21:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

i hear you (none / 0)

i think there are two distinct sets of suburban-dwellars: the working class and the mcmansions.  sure, there are some folks that kinda fit in between those two broad generalisatione, but i think most suburbanites fit into either demographic.  of course i could be talking out of my ass, that's always a possibility!  LOL

as to the rural dwellars, you are right that they can fill their tables with stuff grown in their backyard.  true that.  but i don't think you can deny that many of them do rely on social services, esp. medicare/social security, etc etc.  where i grew up in the deep south, out on a farm outside valdosta georgia, most of those folks were in some way depending on government subsidies for some type of assistance.  usually it was WIC or AFDC or social security.  i could be wrong but i don't think that's changed too much.  i'd love to see some statistics on that, though.  any idea where we  could get some numbers?

as to your comment about the city, aw man, some cities are indeed "pits" but there really is nothing like living in a major city.  i love the 24 hour cycle, how nothing ever closes and there's always something to do... i dunno, i kinda enjoy that fast pace.   =)

Visit us at TexasKAOS, where we're taking Texas back!
by annatopia on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 04:49:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: i hear you (none / 0)

Yeah, I've seen some dirt poor farms in the South. Do they still have sharecroppers? I've heard that Tyson Chicken runs an essentially sharecropping operation.

My direct experience with farmers has been in Michigan, Illinois, Indiana, Wisconsin, Iowa and Minnesota. Quite a bit different from those Southern shantys.

And, although those areas are are almost homogeneously ethically German, except in Minnesota where they are Scandanavian, they are all sure they are experts on the inferiority of anyone who is not a white Christian.

You know, just once I'd like to see someone white say,"Hey, black people are mentally superior to me." But somehow the racists' master race just happens to be their own.

by antiHyde on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 10:08:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

tyson in texas (none / 0)

you know, i will have to look that up.  i know tyson has a huge facility in east texas, and they've had all kinds of issues with the local farmers because of the waste polluting the groundwater used by the locals.  it's a pretty nasty problem.  and IIRC, they do "outsource" some of their chicken breeding operations to local farmers.

yea, the farms up north definitely seem different than what we had down here in the south.  thanks for enlightening me on that count. =)

Visit us at TexasKAOS, where we're taking Texas back!
by annatopia on Fri Nov 11, 2005 at 12:36:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: tyson in texas (none / 0)

I meant "ethnicly" not "ethicly".

Re Tyson sharecropping, I beleive it works like this:

  1. Tyson ships you the chicks, you owe them for the chicks.

  2. Tyson ships you feed, etc. You owe Tyson for this too.

  3. You sell the mature chickens back to Tyson at Tyson's current market price. You get that minus what you borrowed to purchase and raise them. If they die (hurricane, disease, coyotes, whatever) YOU still owe them.

So you buy and sell from them at their price and assume all farming risks. Sound like sharecropping?
by antiHyde on Fri Nov 11, 2005 at 09:36:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Suburbs (3.00 / 1)

You are fixating on word choice, rather than the meat of his position. You do so, as are most posters who happen to be claiming offense, by arguing things aren't "perfect" in the burbs. This hardly seems like a reasonable argument to make when one is making an argument by comparision. Things aren't perfect for anyone, and no one needs to argue that they need to be in order to make a comparision regarding relative quality of life issues. If we were to follow such an approach, all discusses of race, class, nationality, geography, resources, etc would become meaningless. This is analogy (and I am going to say it again so you aren't offended by me pointing it out- I am about to give an analogy). Your argument is like someone who is wealthy complaining well I got problems too. My response would be- no doubt you have problems. That's not what at issue- but what are your problems in terms of their severity to others. Do you have to figure out how to get to work say in a rural country in which unemployment is at 11 percent, there is no public transportation and no higher education to speak of (my home town).
by bruh21 on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 04:11:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Suburbs (3.00 / 1)

Bruh, let me first say that the other people who are taking offense to Chris's argument are doing a much better job with articulation, so look at their posts for clearity.
Your basic argument, as I understand, is that all of these problem-based claims are relative. People in the burbs are comparatively rich, their problems are comparatively of a lesser degree. I understand and accept that. That doesnt change two things: 1) the flip side of Chris's argument by comparison is that suburban problems arent real, which is ABSOLUTELY ridiculous. 2) Have you ever lived in the burbs? Because I get the feeling you are seriously undervaluing the scope of problems there. I know families where the dad was laid off and they were in really bad shape. I know families where someone was seriously ill and they couldnt make the medical bills. I know families who couldnt send their intelligent children to school.  Yeah, I know, my problems arent the point. The point is that, comparatively, urban or rural Joe Shmo has it worse so its ok to trivialize my issues, right? My point with the comparison argument is that Chris should have made more of a nod to the fact that serious problems exist in the subrubs, that the rich "McMansion" types are a suburban minoirty, and that their problems are significant. He shouldnt have labled them as "gated community" people leaving out of reality. I'm not attacking the comparison argument, I'm attacking the pompous tone of the argument.
by AC4508 on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 05:10:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Suburbs (none / 0)

Don't worry, you're perfectly clear. Medical costs (both in terms of employers cutting back on the premiums they pay and insurers cutting back on things they cover) spiraling out of control is a great example of one of the biggest problems that makes life miserable for middle-class suburbanites just as much for urban or rural people... and it's a problem with a Democratic solution (universal health coverage).
by Crazy Vaclav on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 05:20:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Urban-Rural-Exurban (3.00 / 1)

Chris, I spent last night thinking about this exact dynamic. I'm still whetted to the urban-rural alliance, and part of that is in my own history of seeing rural towns get shafted by Republican economic policies. I do have to say, there's also something else here, that's been discussed a little bit on MYDD, but should maybe be further explored. The media, and Democrats have allowed Republicans to run two campaigns in the past, one directed at right wing social conservatives, and the other at moderate suburban economic Republicans. For all the talk of moral values after the last election, the GOP did an amazing job seperating the two so that their pandering to the religious right didn't hurt them in the suburbs, or exurbs. We're partly to blame because we allowed that to occour. After the religious right elected the president meme stuck after the last election, I was delighted since it brought the cleavage fully into the public eye, and then Schaivo re-inforced it. It seems, at least from someone who watched the race from far away that Kilgore overplayed his hand (abortion, the death penalty) significantly on cultural issues and the silent coalition couldn't hold. As far as the rural went, someone else may have to tell me, but it seems that Kilgore's gains in rural Virginia have more to do with the fact that he's from Southwest Virginia than an indication that the Kaine's message is lost on rural Virginia.
by Kombiz Lavasany on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 03:08:03 PM EST

Re: Urban-Rural-Exurban (3.00 / 1)

Your post is exactly right. The Republican coalition relies on hidding their agenda from it's various contituencies.  When, as in the case of Shiavo, this agenda comes into the daylight, their numbers plummet in terms of support to the true right wing base. Although the last 5 years have sucked, I have to say they have provided a valuable comparator for Democrats of just how unfiltered Republican idealogy works. Being in charge for some long- it's been a lesson that Americans have had to re-learn. It will probably still take a while before the lesson is fully learned, but we are probably seeming some of the impact in this election and maybe in 2006 and 2008. I don't think the full impact of how bankrupt Republican idealogy is for governing a country will come into play until local and state officials start to fully shift from Republican to Democrat (or at least from ultra conservative Republicans to moderate or liberal Republicans).
by bruh21 on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 03:19:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

To everyone posting in offense (3.00 / 1)

I think the point of this diary is to make a comparision of the disconnect between the harshness of life in the surburbs versus the rural and urban environments. Having lived in all three, the diarist is correct. There is a marked difference in quality of life issues in a suburb versus urban and rural areas. The diarist only mentions some of what used to be clear divides. ie, Healthcare, transportation, capital access, childcare, and other issues are just some points where there are discernible distance. The diary could have been worded better, but the thesis that the middle class suburbs were a haven from the harsher realities is why most people moved to the suburbs. Issues such as white flight, better schools, etc are the historical reasons people gave for going into the burbs- in order to have an idea of what's going on now, it's my opinion you have to be able to aknowlege the forces that are and have been at play.
by bruh21 on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 03:12:19 PM EST

agreed (none / 0)

sorry folks, but life in the burbs is fuckin' peaches compared to living in a downtown or rural area.
Visit us at TexasKAOS, where we're taking Texas back!
by annatopia on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 03:20:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To everyone posting in offense (none / 0)

I'm quite aware that the living standard in the burbs is higher than in rural and urban america. Thats why people move out there. Put to demean subrubanites as living in some sort of alternate-reality is ridiculous. There ARE problems there, many the same, some different. I'm sorry, should suburbanites with high paying jobs that moved out of the cities apologize for trying to raise their children in more positive environments? Because that, reading between the lines, is the sentiment of the post. Shame on the gated community sububanites, they dont know what real America is. Well America is America, from the wealthiest burb to the most desparate city housing projects. This type of condescending tone is exactly what disgusts people and creates a "liberal aversion" to begin with.
by AC4508 on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 03:25:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To everyone posting in offense (3.00 / 1)

Once agan, he made a relative comparsion between the lives of surbanites and those of rural and urban dwellers to explain voting behavior. You keep trying to justify your position by arguing how that makes you feel. How it makes you feel, or how it makes me feel, is irrelevant to whether or not is what he saying accurate of the voters in question. If you disagree with his thesis, that lessened economic pressures tended to aid and abedded sururb voters drift to the Republican party, then I can understand your point.  

However, ou aren't arguing against the substance of his claims. Just the packaging. You are offended not by the relative comparison that he makes (which you seem to admit is true), but because you don't like the implications of the comparision. Chris is making this comparisions to look at voter behavior. You are adding a different rationale for the post than what seems to be Chris's thesis.

Finally, and this is solely my belief, you can not have your cake and eat it too. If you are going to go to the sururbs for the reasons you aknowledge are better conditions than in rural and urban living, then you shouldn't be getting offended that others take notice of this dynamic. Your counter seems to be that "well things are not perfect" and my response back is "that's not the point." Real world comparisions aren't about perfect conditions. They are about comparisions. Of course, it's a free country, and you are free say whatever you want. But, what has made these discussions difficult to have in the past is that those who are the chief benefitiaries of the system also want to act as though they are offended by talking about how the system distributes resources.

As for the stuff about liberal aversion- were life this simple for the Democrats, I am sure they would be happy to oblige your wording choice. But, we both know it's not- and in fact, what you claim as the basis of the voting pattern has little, if anything to do with what has occured.

by bruh21 on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 04:03:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To everyone posting in offense (3.00 / 1)

The comparison in voting behavior IS valid. I do agree with that part of Chris's post. I understand all of this and I'm not trying to have my cake and eat it too. You're right, its the PACKAGING that bothers me. Its one thing to say that rural and urban areas often face more pressing social problems than the suburbs, but this does not make rural/urban life more genuine, or real. Thats just insulting. The problems faced by suburbanites are often not the same as the othe groups, but they too are real, they too are America's problem, and they too should be taken seriously and not waved off as some stereotypical "gated community, mansion living, rich snobs." The latter part is not acknowledged in Chris's argument, instead he chooses to scorn the burbs. The scorn and condescension is just not neccessary in the comparison. If redstate.org talked about the reality of the suburbs and the ficticious world of the minority, welfare-recipient, good-for-nothing urbanites, it may be just as valid to them, but it'd be just as insulting. You dont have to frame the argument in that manner, its unfair, and thats my point.
by AC4508 on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 04:57:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No. VA and LI suburbans are more liberal (3.00 / 1)

than most suburbans in the country.  While promising, I wouldn't hang my hat on it.  People in AZ, GA, and TX suburbs are some of the most rightwing you'll see.

I think it's the wealth issue that is the bridge to the rural areas.  Rural voters are usually less wealthy and are ripe for an Democratic economic message.  A lot of suburbs are very wealthy.

LI and No. VA tend to be social moderates.

McCain is defining Obama, and Obama is neither defining himself, nor McCain. This is awful.
by jgarcia on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 03:21:39 PM EST

excellent point (none / 0)

about wealth.  nail, meet head.
Visit us at TexasKAOS, where we're taking Texas back!
by annatopia on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 03:38:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: excellent point (none / 0)

Thanks!  : )
McCain is defining Obama, and Obama is neither defining himself, nor McCain. This is awful.
by jgarcia on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 07:21:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Suburban demographics change, too (none / 0)

Another thing to consider about the suburbs is that, over time, the character of suburbs change as metro areas expand. Inner ring suburbs take on more characteristics of the cities (more racial and economic diversity, more in-fill density), and the newly-created exurbs become the destination for the same type of people who filled the inner ring suburbs a couple generations ago (i.e. the people who want to flee the diversity and the density).

In particular, I'm thinking of northern Virginia... 20 or 30 years ago, Arlington and Alexandria were pretty much considered the suburbs, Fairfax County was the right-wing exurbs (although no one was using the term "exurbs" back then), and Loudoun County was mostly cows. Now Arlington and Alexandria are pretty much treated as adjuncts of Washington DC (well, much whiter and wealthier, but still diverse and deep blue), the inner ring suburbs of Fairfax County are now getting racially mixed and becoming more reliably Democratic each year, and Loudoun County is the archetypal exurb (and if yesterday's results are any indication, trending Democratic too). What's happening may not be so much the people in the suburbs changing their mind as the fact that the "city" (and its strengths and weaknesses) is inexorably spreading out into the inner-ring suburbs, and the people who are afraid of the realities of the city are having to move further and further out into the sticks to avoid it.

by Crazy Vaclav on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 03:46:38 PM EST

Re: Suburban demographics change, too (none / 0)

good (and interesting) point.  
Visit us at TexasKAOS, where we're taking Texas back!
by annatopia on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 03:47:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Suburbs are annoying (none / 0)

I live in the suburbs--

After spending most of my life living in the other alternate reality- a college town (go Jayhawks!)

Suburbs are annoying.

There is no variety, some of the people there actually ARE people who want no "reality" intruding-

my neighbor parked his boat in his driveway for the winter(not unsightly), and the neighborhood association called him asking him to remove it(!) Like he has the money to park/store his boat somewhere else!

My city actually delegates all sorts of authority to these quasi-democratic (i.e. not at all democratic) neighborhood associations that collect dues and lord over things.  When there is a complaint about city services, they want it to come through the neighborhood association-- which of course means an extra layer of "democracy" to protect the city council from havnig to actually take a formal action on anything controversial.  

Would you hire George W Bush to be YOUR latex salesman?
by jgkojak on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 04:50:00 PM EST

neightborhood associations... (none / 0)

....are just a cover for racism and classism.  at least that's how they function where i live.  

when i went house hunting three years ago, i was adamant about making sure we purchased a home that DID NOT have one of those organisations.  nobody is going to tell me what i can or can't plant in my front yard, what color my house is, whether i can have a wood or chain link fence, etc etc.

those folks remind me of that lady on "keeping up appearances", what's her name, hyacinth?

Visit us at TexasKAOS, where we're taking Texas back!
by annatopia on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 04:56:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Long Island (none / 0)

I live in Suffolk County and I think you're making a mistake about the nature of Long Island.  There are big differences between Nassau and Suffolk.  Perhaps Nassau is "uber-suburban" and has gated communities, but Suffolk is a strange mix and very different.  

There has been an extreme amount of development since I moved here 20 years ago, but it is still a lot of farming.  In fact, according to the Cornell Cooperative Extension "Suffolk County is the largest agricultural county in New York State in sales of product. We have the largest and fastest growing wine industry, ranked second only to California in US grape production, and the state’s largest horticultural sales and service industry." http://www.cce.cornell.edu/suffolk/Programs/AGhome.htm.  Its also too far from NYC to be a common commute.  There is also the vacations homes in the Hamptons. Not a typical suburban mix.

I actually think that the results in Brookhaven Town were because of a change about 2 years ago when the Democratic candidate for Highway supervisor caught the town Department of Highways employees putting up hugh signs for all the Republican candidates.  The incumbent Highway supervisor denied that he knew about it and won that year, but during the next election, for the first time since I lived here, there weren't hugh signs on all the main roads for the Republicans and no signs for the Democrats.  That year the Democratic candidate for Highway supervisor won.  This year there were lots of small signs all over for all the candidates and the Democrats did well. This shows how a low position can make a difference in how the candidates up the ballot do.

by Cindy on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 05:03:12 PM EST

Racism still alive on Long Island (none / 0)

In the Nassau county race all the Dem candidates won with the exception of the position for town clerk. Since this an administrative job with no political powers we can assume that "political philosophy" was not a serious factor for voters.

In addition both candidates were women, eliminating another possible factor. The only real difference is that the incumbent was white and the challenger was black. The Republican incumbent won. The only Republican to do so against the Suzzo ticket.

It seems to me that race must have been a factor for people to split their votes this way. So much for all the rednecks being in the South.

---Policies not Politics
Daily Quiet Image
by rdf on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 05:10:20 PM EST

Condescending (none / 0)

Chris, you're way off base here. Your caricature of suburban Americans is as bad as Republicans slamming urban Americans. It's no way for us to win, that's for sure.
by owillis on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 05:29:39 PM EST

not condescending (3.00 / 1)

condescending would be to say ALL suburbanites are this way -- when that's just not the case in this post. surburbia does have a spread-out, sterile feeling to it, and it definitely plays into republican fear tactics (gays, taxes, etc). common good isn't possible where people don't interact with people unlike themselves. a dogmatic ideology is perfect for the burbs, a "common good" ideology is tough.

Clinton helped "raise all boats" and everyone got richer and the economy did well -- but convincing a surbanite that helping EVERYONE (not just the top 1%) is better for the economy, and lending some tax dollars to someone downtown might make you better off in the long run ... that's tough.

republicans largely give up on urban areas, so they're easy for them to slam. with race and poverty issues usually playing out downtown, you can't really just say "tax cut" and please voters. as was noted earlier, dems try to win everywhere (someone said eagan minnesota, where i'm writing, and it's a great example) so "slamming surbubia" isn't really accurate. dems believe in a common good, so they try to appeal to voters everwhere. republicans appeal to where the voters are most sympathetic and they can win -- it's really empowering the people vs. empowering a party.

i thought chris nailed this one...

by jessev on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 07:46:33 PM EST


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