MyDD October Straw Poll

It is that time of the month again. The October straw poll on the 2008 Democratic nomination is up on the front page. The IRV version can be found here. The candidates are the same as last time. Here were the September results:
	    Non-IRV	IRV
Clark	     34%		42%
Feingold      23%		26%
Edwards       11%		9%
Warner	      8%		8%
Clinton        8%		8%
Richardson     4%		5%
Biden	      1%		2%
Bayh	      1%		1%
Unsure	      6%		NA
I have added "unsure" to the IRV poll this time. If the potential candidate you like best isn't included, don't post a frickin' diary about it. I'll delete it if you do. I'm not changing these choices until someone either forms a Presidential committee or states they are not running.

I'll discuss the results on Monday.



Display:


NM gov but finally loking at Feingold (none / 0)

The list keeps getting shorter.  That is a good thing.  It opens up room for outsiders, newcomers and non-senators.

Although he is at least my third choice, and I still don't think a senator will become president in 08, the netroots and mydd in particular have finally convinced me to take a look at Feingold.

My number one remains Richardson because I liked the international work he did under Clinton; he is good liberal gov; in order to win the WH I think the west must rule dem politics; he is a man of color; and he is not a senator.

by aiko on Thu Oct 06, 2005 at 03:21:13 PM EST

Re: NM gov but finally loking at Feingold (none / 0)

I also like Richardson's work as Energy Secretary, as rising gas prices will continue to be a huge issue.
by AC4508 on Thu Oct 06, 2005 at 04:14:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Feingold takes the lead! (none / 0)

for what it's worth, I guess.
"You say the world has lost it's love I say embrace what it's made of" -Dar Williams
by Valatan on Thu Oct 06, 2005 at 03:25:13 PM EST

I like Clark and Edwards (none / 0)

Being in NM, I can tell you that Gov. Richardson isn't quite as popular as one would think. He seems to come off as a "player". I don't think he or Hillary would do much to re-shape people's views of the Dem. party. My feeling is that Edwards or Clark have much loftier goals and better represent the collective beliefs of the progressive populace. I'm thinking that having Hillary or Bill (Richardson) as pres would be pretty much be like having a Washington insider as pres.

IMHO, we need to put forth a more populist candidate.

by desertjedi on Thu Oct 06, 2005 at 03:47:19 PM EST

Re: I like Clark and Edwards (none / 0)

I agree almost completely with your take. Winning isn't enough anymore. We need leaders who can be adovates for Democratic liberalism. No more cut and run. I want.... no, I demand that my elected Democratic leaders make a spirited defense of the values I cherish. Wes Clark stands up for himself. Russ Feindgold stands up for himself. They aren't leaders who move to the right to gain currency with 'moderates'. They go where their ideals take them and bring the voters along with them.

I am not looking ideological purity. I am looking for a commitment to core ideals - creating opportunity, securing individual liberty and standing up for the average citizen. I am looking for leaders who make the people believe in the goodness and efficacy of government. This is all I require. Run away from these beliefs and I run away from the party.

by crazymoloch on Thu Oct 06, 2005 at 04:57:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I like Clark and Edwards (none / 0)

Interesting you say that about Richardson. I know 2 people who live in NM and they feel that way too...

I wonder if any of the people who support him live there.

Mostly I just wanted to post something because I voted Clark and feel it's important for Clarkies to post to show our numbers are true and the poll is not being "freeped" or whatever it is we're accused of when Clark wins.

I also like Edwards. Some think he's "phony" but I think he's true. Especially love his wife!

by jen on Thu Oct 06, 2005 at 05:50:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I would vote for any of the following (none / 0)

Gore
Warner
Edwards
Clark

In that order unless they convinced me otherwise.  Anyone of these men has the ability to do the job.  

I promised myself this election cycle that if "my guy/gal" didn't win the primary that I wouldn't whine about.  But, what I would do is support the winner with all my heart and not tear him/her down like has been done in the past.

by lisadawn82 on Thu Oct 06, 2005 at 03:53:37 PM EST

Re: I would vote for any of the following (none / 0)

I agree wholeheartedly with your picks. And let me ask the rhetorical question that some others may be thinking...who exactly is Russ Feingold?
by desertjedi on Thu Oct 06, 2005 at 04:05:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I would vote for any of the following (none / 0)

A very progressive Senator from Wisconsin.  Remember the vote for the USA PATRIOT ACT in the Senate and how it was 99-1 in favor of it?  Russ Feingold was the one against.  He voted against the Iraq War Resolution.  He was the first Senator to propose the US withdraw from Iraq by Dec 31, 2006.  He is the second half of the "McCain-Feingold" election reform bill.  He tells it like it is, and he's loved by Wisconsinites.  Every year, he goes on a listening tour where he holds a town hall style meeting in every county of Wisconsin to hear the concerns of his constituents.
Rudy Giuliani hates firefighters. And puppies.
by Fran for Dean on Thu Oct 06, 2005 at 04:39:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Patriot Act vote was 98-1 (none / 0)

For some reason Mary Landrieu didn't vote on it, though it is very doubtful she would have joined Russ on the side of civil liberties given her voting record.
by Keith Brekhus on Thu Oct 06, 2005 at 05:36:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

He's the guy... (none / 0)

...who voted on sending US troops to stop the mass murder of thousands of people in the Balkans.  I think it's called genocide?
by alexm on Fri Oct 07, 2005 at 04:09:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Point (none / 0)

General Clark was my man in the primaries, but at this point I'm ranking him as low as possible because I don't see the point of this given the extremely organized voting blocs that exist on the left-blogosphere for the General.

I would love for General Clark to run again and do very well, but as far as this poll, for it to be helpful and meaningful, I feel I have to balance out the organized voting taking place for him. (Plus I hate to see people I like as frontrunners this early on...never good)

by PHDinNYC4Kerry on Thu Oct 06, 2005 at 04:11:10 PM EST

Re: Point (none / 0)

Thank you. That's thoughtful.

I'm wondering if at some point, out of sheer curiosity, we could do a Clark-free poll. It'd be interesting to get a sense of the other candidates' strengths without interference by the horde of Clarkies who all seem to have a Bat-signal to sweep in en masse and freep polls here and at Kos. (And I don't say this as a Clark basher; he impresses me and I always have him at 3 or 4 on my IRV poll. I'd just like to see one poll free from that factor.)

(Of course, a Clark-free poll has no more real-world usefulness than a poll manipulated by overzealous Clark supporters... or for that matter, any poll based on self-selection.)

by Crazy Vaclav on Thu Oct 06, 2005 at 05:52:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Point (none / 0)

Excuse me, but how exactly are we "manipulating" the poll? By voting in it?  And why does voting for our preferred candidate make us any more "overzealous" than any one else?

Damn, but I get tired of hearing the same old bs every time one of these things goes up.

Face it, folks.  There are a lot of us.  And we vote in these things.  Why is that such a crime?

Besides, check the results of the IRV.  A helluva lot of the people voting for other people are listing Clark as their second choice.  These could not be the "overzealous Clark supporters" that you seem to think are such a plague.

Clark is popular, and for good reason.

It's the same reason you see his face in the upper right corner of this page.  And I hope you'll consider clicking on it and coughing up a few bucks, whether you like Clark or not.  We're all in this together and I really don't see the point in disparaging a large segment of the Democratic base.

by hf jai on Thu Oct 06, 2005 at 09:47:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Point (none / 0)

All I know is what I've observed, which is apparently the same thing PHDinNYC4Kerry seems to have observed, which suggests some level of organized freeping... that in the early hours of these polls, Feingold generally leaps out to an early lead in the 30% ballpark with Clark in 2nd or 3rd place in the 10% ballpark. But then after about 3 or 4 hours, hundreds of Clark votes suddenly show up at more or less the same time, enough to push him into the lead.

Now maybe there's a perfectly innocent alternate explanation, like Clark voters actually have jobs and don't vote until they get home from work. Perhaps the Feingold people are the real diehards at this blog, the ones who are checking it every hour and who pounce on the poll, and the Clark people come along in more dispersed fashion as the day goes by. (Or maybe there's no organized GOTV at all... just one especially devoted guy who has all day free to keep deleting his cookies and re-voting.)

At any rate, I agree with the core of what you're saying... Clark's a good candidate, and even if there's some sort of organized on-line GOTV effort behind this, every one of those Clark votes is from a legitimate Clark voter who legitimately wants him to win, so there's no harm in it.

by Crazy Vaclav on Fri Oct 07, 2005 at 12:53:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What of John Kerry? (none / 0)

Do we know for sure that Kerry won't attempt to try again? As much as I admire the guy, I think it would be disastrous.
by desertjedi on Thu Oct 06, 2005 at 04:12:26 PM EST

He's in (none / 0)

I don't know why he isn't listed in this poll.  It would be a horrible idea to nominate him again, though.
by Geotpf on Fri Oct 07, 2005 at 04:06:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

As of now... (none / 0)

As of now, I'm supporting Clark. I think when Iraq finally melts down people are going to look for someone with international/military experience. Clinton doesn't inspire me and Biden makes me want to puke. I am a big "Deaniac" and would love to see a Clark/Dean ticket, but if Gore could be persuaded to change his mind, a Gore/Dean ticket would be ideal. Having the presidency stolen from him looks to have set him free from the DLC kool-aide effects and he (Gore) has made some wonderful speeches. Everytime some Greenie whines to me about Gore, (delete rant about the Greens).
"Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." -- Denis Diderot
by Stoic on Thu Oct 06, 2005 at 04:13:08 PM EST

Gore? (none / 0)

Why is (President) Al Gore not on this list?  He surely has the resume and the spine necessary to take on the Bush & Co. machine.
by sassysara on Thu Oct 06, 2005 at 04:28:57 PM EST

Biden (none / 0)

Should we start a pool to peg the date Biden announces he's giving up the run?
by danielj on Thu Oct 06, 2005 at 04:33:38 PM EST

Restoring America's Credibility Abroad.. (3.00 / 1)

I have had the fortune to live and travel throughout the world over the course of the last 3 years.. I don't think words can describe the level of antipathy that exists among people towards the United States at the moment.  One can say that they despise our policies, and not us individually, but in my experience, the two are only separated when you prove to the individual that you despise the current adminstration more than they do.

For me, the next President of the United States must have the credibility, humility, and the vision to humbly apologize to the world for our unilateral, beligerent foreign policy, and ask them to give the United States another opportunity to prove itself as the responsible leader of the free world.

When I at look at prospective candidates in 2008, only General Wesley Clark stands out as someone who could not only restore the credibility of the United States abroad, but unite the world behind an agenda that seeks to responsibly promote human rights, and economic and social equality.  

This summer, I had the fortune of studying law in Southern Croatia with a group of Slovenian and Croatian law students.  Their reaction, like those of numerous Bosnians, Germans and Norwegians I met along the way, to a Clark presidency was the same: we could only be so lucky.  

I promised each of my dear Croatian friends that I would fight for General Clark in 2008, and I intend to keep that promise.  For me, no one else has the vision to rectify the situation in the Middle East (as a liberal Iranian-American, I am disgusted by the way this adminstration has retarded TRUE democratic reform in the region with its misguided policies and harsh rhetoric).  

General Clark also enjoys inherent advantages with the electorate (every Republican I know considers him to have no chance at the nomination because he is "too reasonable).  He also delivers the State of Arkansas and puts the Republicans on the defensive throughout the southern portion of the country.  

A Clark/Warner ticket most likely delivers both Arkansas and Virginia, which, coupled with the Kerry states, means a Democrat in the White House.

While I do support the General, there are several other candidates who I believe could be effective in the role of POTUS.  Russ Feingold, John Edwards and Mark Warner (all three have different strengths and weaknesses) are very solid candidates, who will have major roles in shaping Democratic policy in the future.  

by Hadi on Thu Oct 06, 2005 at 04:38:58 PM EST

Re: Restoring America's Credibility Abroad.. (3.00 / 1)

I think that is because they remember General Clark from his days as SACEUR, (Supreme Allied Commander Europe) i.e. Commander of NATO forces in the late 90's. Even though the Kosovo War was not very popular in Europe in 1999 (I was in the Army in Germany at the time. But I believe Clark would do a lot to restore America's good name back to its original standing, even if he was Secretary of State.
by phinky on Thu Oct 06, 2005 at 04:58:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Restoring America's Credibility Abroad.. (3.00 / 1)

Obviously, I realize that the particular groups I listed have a tangible reason to be biased in favor of Clark.  However, the fact that he advocated for the protection of a Muslim minority and subsequently stopped the ethnic cleansing of up to a million Muslims sends a clear message to the people of Jordan, Malaysia, Iran, Turkey and Nigeria that this is a man who has no hidden agenda.

Secondly, I am a bit ambivalent about Clark assuming a cabinet position (obviously, if he isn't on the ticket, he gets either Sec. of Defense or State) because they tend to be hamstrung by other policymakers in the adminstration.  

To me, Clark would seem to be have the most potential implementing his policies while leading the executive branch

by Hadi on Thu Oct 06, 2005 at 05:11:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Vote in the POLL here! (none / 0)

Hi folks,

just promoting kevin22262's straw poll.

GO & VOTE here.

thanks.

CLICK to Draft Al Gore!
by NeoLiberal on Fri Oct 07, 2005 at 12:11:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This "IRV" Is A Disaster. (none / 0)

You said:

"Your lower choices won't hurt the chances of your higher choices."

That is absolutely fallacious. By giving someone a rank below 1st, you can bring about the election of someone you despise -- the despicable one wins because you failed to give some candidate you like, who ends up just below the despicable one, that 1st rank. (The black hat syndrome.)

Additionally, how can I write in Gore?

"IRV" solves absolutely nothing, it merely hides its own flaws extremely well.

There are solutions. The best one is to have 3 or 4 consecutive runoff approval elections. The final election would be a simple choice between two remaining candidates.

by blues on Thu Oct 06, 2005 at 04:50:46 PM EST

Re: This "IRV" Is A Disaster. (3.00 / 1)

What are you talking about?  I think you fail to understand IRV.  

The election isn't over until someone gets over 50% of the votes.  Your vote continues to count towards your highest ranking candidate still in contention at each successive round.  When one candidate breaks the 50% mark, your vote counts for whoever you ranked the highest of the remaining candidates.  There is no way your highest ranked candidate is harmed by whoever you ranked lower.

And your proposal of a series of run-offs?  What on earth is that?  How is it any different than IRV except that you stretch the election out longer and spend more money on more ballots?

by Kumar on Thu Oct 06, 2005 at 05:04:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This "IRV" Is A Disaster. (none / 0)

I happen to be learned in mathematics, electronics, and linguistics. So I must know somethin'.

Think about how a teeny-tiny little Mandelbrot algorithm can generate an infinitely intricate fractal image.

Please observe that your seemingly nifty argument does absolutely nothing to refute mine.

Arguments about fractal geometry tend to be infinite.

One must seriously apply one's mental facilities to get at the reality of these things.

by blues on Thu Oct 06, 2005 at 05:42:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This "IRV" Is A Disaster. (none / 0)

Congratulations on your education.  Your parents must be very proud.

You posited that by ranking candidates below your 1st choice, you were actually harming your first choice.  I fail to see how IRV results in that, and your "example" about despicable candidates did nothing to clarify what you were saying.

Furthermore, I fail to see how your proposal of multiple run-offs is any preferable to IRV either in terms of producing a result that accurately reflects the mood of the electorate, or in terms of efficiency (look at the boondoggle that NYC almost faced over the Democratic mayoral primary).

If you care to explain what you meant, I'm happy to hear it and consider it.

by Kumar on Thu Oct 06, 2005 at 07:17:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This "IRV" Is A Disaster. (none / 0)

My apologies.  I just re-read your original comment, and realized I mischaracterized it above.

I still don't understand how what you are saying works.  If you love Candidate A, you like Candidate B and you hate Candidate C, you would obviously vote 1A 2B and not vote for C altogether.  As the results are tabulated, if A is eliminated, your vote goes to B.  If B is eliminated, your vote stays with A.  In either case, if C gets 51% of the vote, it wouldn't have mattered who you ranked as #1.  But I don't see where you've helped C by ranking B #2.

Again, sorry for not reading your carefully to start with.

by Kumar on Thu Oct 06, 2005 at 07:27:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This "IRV" Is A Disaster. (none / 0)

The solution is simple. Just get a supercomputer, which usually means, get a vector processor (they cost a couple million), set the vectors for a random walk analysis, and then just plug in candidates of various quality (relative to some hypothetical voter). I think you will find that "IRV" yields about a 10% improvement over our current plurality voting method. The downside of "IRV" is that it is, oh maybe, 1000 times more complicated at the counting end than plurality voting.

The relevant concept here is not quite that hard to describe. It goes like this: Any voting system that forces a voter to choose one particular favorite candidate generally imposes the condition that that voter's second choice candidate could possibly lose out to some third candidate whom that voter despises.

Approval voting does not force the voter to vote for one particular favorite; it stipulates that a voter can only give one vote to any candidate she or he approves of, but can bestow one vote on as many candidates as she or he approves of. The biggest problem is that the voter cannot favor a candidate that she or he most likes over one that she or he only finds acceptable. But, with three or four consecutive runoffs this problem becomes extremely minor.

In regard to the cost of consecutive runoffs (which I think should be executed via paper ballots -- as I think, that to whatever extent computer voting is more efficient, it is 1000 times more exploitable), it would seem reasonable that people who dislike the cost of democracy should move to North Korea.

by blues on Thu Oct 06, 2005 at 10:16:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This "IRV" Is A Disaster. (none / 0)

IRV is 1000 times simpler than whatever it is you're advocating
by Gracchus for Senate on Fri Oct 07, 2005 at 11:53:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This "IRV" Is A Disaster. (none / 0)

To re-quote myself:

"Approval voting does not force the voter to vote for one particular favorite; it stipulates that a voter can only give one vote to any candidate she or he approves of, but can bestow one vote on as many candidates as she or he approves of. The biggest problem is that the voter cannot favor a candidate that she or he most likes over one that she or he only finds acceptable. But, with three or four consecutive runoffs this problem becomes extremely minor."

This can all easily be done with hand-marked, eye counted ballots. Further the results at the precinct level can be counted, announced and then simply added to the results at all other precincts.

With "IRV", none of this can be done, and computers may (in some cases) need to evaluate interrelationships between each and every ballot all the way to the "conclusion" of the tabulation! Even then, it is trivial to show that the magical 50% + 1 pseudo-majority may never be reached. Example: given 3000 voters, let 1000 vote only for "A" (they hate "B" and "C"), 1000 only for "B"(they hate "A" and "C"), 100 only for "C"(they hate "A" and "B"). There are many ways of ameliorating some of these drawbacks which apply various "shortcuts" to the tabulation -- but these are very different types of "IRV". And they all are much less reflective of the will of the voters than is our current plurality method.

by blues on Sun Oct 09, 2005 at 07:23:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This "IRV" Is A Disaster. (none / 0)

At least we agree that IRV is preferable to the current system.  We may still disagree whether IRV is the most preferable alternative to the current system.

I find it curious that you believe complicated democracy is bad, but unnecessarily expensive democracy is good.  But to each their own.

I have heard of approval voting, and I thought it was interesting.  But I don't think even this method eliminates the problem you raise.  You could still end up with a candidate you despise, and to increase the possibilities of avoiding this, the approval method would force you to vote for candidates you don't even like.  

Assume a voter's choices are Gore, Dean, Perot, McCain and Bush.  Assume also that he loves Gore, likes Dean, is neutral on Perot, dislikes McCain and hates Bush, would the voter(under the approval method) still have to vote for McCain in order to support him over Bush?

It seems the problem you raise calls into question the fundamental purpose of voting.  Are we voting to support what we like?  Or are we voting to defeat what we hate?  The current system tends toward the latter.  IRV would tend toward the former.  The approval method, I believe, would also tend toward the former, but would still leave open the need to support undesireable candidates in order to defeat even MORE undesireable candidates.

The only way I can think of a solution (off the top of my head) is to transform voting into a + and - scoring system where you give positive points to the candidates you like, and negative points to the candidates you don't like.  My college used this method to allocate funding for student organizations.  But even then you'll need to make certain devil's bargains to really keep a candidate you hate from winning.

Furthermore, are the approval method and IRV mutually exclusive?  Why couldn't IRV be structured to allow you to rank multiple people #1, #2 etc.?  Wouldn't that solve your objection, AND eliminate the need for multiple run-offs?

by Kumar on Fri Oct 07, 2005 at 08:19:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This "IRV" Is A Disaster. (none / 0)

Let me focus in on:

"I have heard of approval voting, and I thought it was interesting.  But I don't think even this method eliminates the problem you raise.  You could still end up with a candidate you despise, and to increase the possibilities of avoiding this, the approval method would force you to vote for candidates you don't even like.  

Assume a voter's choices are Gore, Dean, Perot, McCain and Bush.  Assume also that he loves Gore, likes Dean, is neutral on Perot, dislikes McCain and hates Bush, would the voter(under the approval method) still have to vote for McCain in order to support him over Bush?"

Of course "You could still end up with a candidate you despise", since the despicable one will surely win if everybody else loves him or her.

Regarding the idea "...and to increase the possibilities of avoiding this, the approval method would force you to vote for candidates you don't even like." -- and the example --"...dislikes McCain and hates Bush, would the voter(under the approval method) still have to vote for McCain in order to support him over Bush?" -- there is no perfect answer, but consecutive approval come close to the ideal.  Observe:

No method, including consecutive approval will be of help in the scenario in which only a disliked McCain and a hated Bush are the available options to vote for. No voting method can make bad candidates better.

You have created seemingly relevant categories of "loves X," "likes X," "is neutral regarding X," dislikes X," and hates X. The reality is that these relationships may exist in the context of a voter responding to a pollster, but tend to vanish when the voter actually votes -- at which point, the advantages of the available candidates become completely relative. For example, going back to my previous scenario:

"No method, including consecutive approval will be of help in the scenario in which only a disliked McCain and a hated Bush are the only viable options to vote for." -- Not only is this so, but under this circumstance, the issue of "the disliked" being in opposition to "the hated" is totally meaningless. The voter will surely "like" the former and "dislike" the latter, within the context of casting a ballot.

Finally, each voter will have to decide, in the context of each of 3 or 4 consecutive runoffs, which candidates are acceptable. Those are three or four different contexts -- and the relative acceptability relationship among the candidates, would change as the available choices narrow down.
Although consecutive approval does have a gray hat syndrome, in that it might (quite rarely) induce you to vote for a mediocre person in some scenarios so as to block an ogre, it does not have the black hat syndrome, in which you can be tricked into bringing about the election of an (again, this is relative) ogre by failing to give 1st rank to his or her otherwise winning, but (relatively) mediocre opponent.

If we want to play out more scenarios, we will soon be needing that supercomputer.

(Again, for those who cannot bear the toil or expense of three or four runoffs, you will avoid all that bother by simply doing away with elections. How much do they cost, I wonder, in comparison with, say, that B1 bomber we lost in the first days of the Iraq boondoggle?)

by blues on Sun Oct 09, 2005 at 08:35:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

C'mon, Hillary only at eight percent? (none / 0)

That cannot be right.  Seems I'm one of the only Hillary people here.
McCain is defining Obama, and Obama is neither defining himself, nor McCain. This is awful.
by jgarcia on Thu Oct 06, 2005 at 05:10:53 PM EST

Al Gore: The Netroots' Real Choice for 2008 (none / 0)



Given these 2008 choices, I would vote for:

Edwards       646 votes - 8 %
Clark       1887 votes - 24 %
Gore       3685 votes - 48 %
Clinton       366 votes - 4 %
Feingold       666 votes - 8 %
Other       178 votes - 2 %
No Freakin' Clue       194 votes - 2 %

7622 Total Votes



Link
--------------

thanks.

CLICK to Draft Al Gore!
by NeoLiberal on Thu Oct 06, 2005 at 05:43:54 PM EST

What an ugly list ... (none / 0)

This is a terrible list.

These are precisely the people who have messed up the Democratic Party in one way or another over the last fifteen years.

They are precisely the politicians who have consistantly NOT spoken out as the Bush administration has committed one Democratic sacreledge after another. They have NOT had positive programs to offer. They have NOT explained their votes and positions on important issues. They have demonstrated NO political vision. They have NOT appeared regularly on news programs as they should. They have NOT defended moderate positions on current important political issues. They have been consistently been surprised at the grassroots unrest they consistently face, when they DO occasionally venture out of their familiar Washington DC surroundings.

I am not as active as others on this board, but I still probably know 150 to 200 other Democrats who involved with politics, keep up with the news and are active in their local communities in one way or another. No one I know has mentioned ANY of these candidates except in passing, or as examples of who we should NOT nominate. While this is anecdotal experience, it is MY anecdotal experience. I agree with my friends.  

This is a horrible field of candidates.

After John Kerry and Al Gore, I doubt that I would vote for any of them.

Sorry for the negative review.

blue  

by blue73 on Thu Oct 06, 2005 at 05:45:06 PM EST

WWHHHAAAAATTT! (3.00 / 1)

How could you even say that after bypassing that guy "Russ Feingold" on the list. This guy voted against the worst republican measures - The Patriot Act, Iraq War Resolution, Energy Policy Act of 2004(repealed a part of the new deal), The Energy Bill, Bankruptcy Bill, etc. He also voted against Democratic-supported things like NAFTA and GATT. Long story short, this guy is the exact opposite of your description.

It would also be very unfair to place Wesley Clark amongst that category.

by KainIIIC on Thu Oct 06, 2005 at 06:19:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What an ugly list ... (none / 0)

maybe you need to hang out at a different blog.
by aiko on Fri Oct 07, 2005 at 06:49:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What an ugly list ... (none / 0)

No. This is precisely the right blog for my post.

It is people exactly like you, who will either win or lose the Presidency for the Democratic candidate in 2008.  

I believe you will lose if you fail to consider 1) that Democrats have lost because they have -- well, because they have acted like John Kerry and Al Gore for the last dozen years, and 2) this list of candidates is much too closely tied to the experiences, habits, consultants, strategies and money that gave us the "campaigns" that John Kerry and Al Gore waged in our behalf. We Deserve Better.

We need to back a candidate who will break from this ugly piece of recent political history.  None of these candidates passes my personal test. Although some (Russ Feingold) are better than others, they are ALL inadequate. I simply will NOT vote for ANY of them. It has come to that, for me.

... and your only answer is that I should post to another blog.  

blue

by blue73 on Fri Oct 07, 2005 at 12:00:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What an ugly list ... (none / 0)

I think you're really giving them short shrift. There may not be any John F. Kennedys in the list but there are some people who, IMHO, could put our country back on the right track, be a fine leader, regain us respect in the world and be a hundred-fold better pres than the shrub.
by desertjedi on Fri Oct 07, 2005 at 11:12:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What an ugly list ... (none / 0)

ANY of these candidates would be 7/8 of a great President, and would be miles ahead of anyone the GOP is talking about.  

But then; so would have Al Gore and John Kerry.

The problem is not competence. It is leadership.

None of these people have a vision for the country  or the courage to take a stand in support of that vision (that they don't have anyway).

None of them take the last several Election fiascos seriously, nor will they propose measures that would clean up campaign financing and Election management.

None of them have taken real stands against the current Administration, nor are any of them willing to admit how much the GOP has undermined our Economy and our Bill of Rights.  

None of them can wage a campaign that can win, because THAT is what it will take to win.

Grassroots Democrats are furious with the top of their Party (even the moderates). Polls reported right here on myDD have shown that. The GOP has demonstrated that it is willing to fudge elections to win.

Russ Feingold is not a bad choice, but he doesn't speak out, he doesn't have proposals he's willing to dramatize and promote, and he voted for every one of George Bush's tax cuts. He hasn't denounced the 2000, 2002 and 2004 elections, and I almost never see him on TV (altho he appears more often than some of the others). Feingold has to show some courage before I would vote for him.

blue

by blue73 on Fri Oct 07, 2005 at 12:16:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What an ugly list ... (none / 0)

Feingold in the late summer became the first senator to propose a "Target Date" For withdrawing troops from Iraq. Although not many other Democrats have joined his proposal (Byrd and Boxer have), he says that the Democrats will finally reach a proposal agreement to address Iraq.

Feingold offered us a lot of leadership on campaign finance reform, allowing US to have more say in politics than corporations or labor unions.

He doesn't go on TV that much, i've only seen him on Meet The Press once (concerning the Withdrawal) and on C-SPAN.

My question is: Just who WOULD you want as your nominee?

by KainIIIC on Fri Oct 07, 2005 at 12:33:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Russ Feingold (none / 0)

Russ Feingold OPPOSED and VOTED AGAINST almost every single one of Bush's fiscally iresposnsible tax cuts.  Yes, Russ did vote for the Increased Child Tax Credit Bill in 2004, which passed the Senate by a vote of  92-3.  Russ has been a leader in trying to restore fiscal responsibility by trying to pass the PAYGO amendment to return to the budget rules that worked so well in the 1990s.

Not Courageous Enough?  Doesn't speak out?

  1. Russ was the lone vote in the Senate against the USA PATRIOT Act.
  2. Russ voted against the Iraq War Resolution, and he has now proposed a target date to withdraw troops from Iraq.
  3. Russ was the only Democrat in the Senate to vote against the Clinton crime bill -- primarily because of his staunch opposition to the death penalty.  Russ has courageously spoken out against the death penalty.
  4. Russ firmly belives that heath care is a right, not a privilege.  He has advocated universal health care for ALL Americans.
  5. Russ has been a leader in campaign finance reform, and risked his Senate seat by doing so. In his 1998 re-election campaign, he abided by the rules of the McCain-Feingold bill even though it was not the law of the land.

Russ Feingold is perhaps the most courageous Senator -- while representing a swing state.  

by whodat527 on Fri Oct 07, 2005 at 01:03:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Presidential choice. (3.00 / 1)

I have come to the conclusion that you should include Gore in your polls.  He is looking better and better to me, since he appears to have learned some lessons from 2000.  His willing to face off against the MSM makes me feel all warm and fuzzy.
by Docsilver on Thu Oct 06, 2005 at 06:26:10 PM EST

Re: Presidential choice. (none / 0)

but he's not running.
by KainIIIC on Thu Oct 06, 2005 at 06:31:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Presidential choice. (2.00 / 1)

"but he's not running."

Who else is not running Mr. Nostradamus?

CLICK to Draft Al Gore!
by NeoLiberal on Thu Oct 06, 2005 at 06:43:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Presidential choice. (none / 0)

Michael Dukakis perhaps? Bob Dole? George Bush Sr.?
by KainIIIC on Thu Oct 06, 2005 at 07:29:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Presidential choice. (none / 0)

"Michael Dukakis perhaps? Bob Dole? George Bush Sr.? "

Good one :)

But, which one of these gentlemen smoked the field with 48% of the vote in the 9/22/05 dKos straw poll? For your convenience, here are those results again:


Given these 2008 choices, I would vote for:

Edwards       646 votes - 8 %
Clark       1887 votes - 24 %
Gore       3685 votes - 48 %
Clinton       366 votes - 4 %
Feingold       666 votes - 8 %
Other       178 votes - 2 %
No Freakin' Clue       194 votes - 2 %

7622 Total Votes


If Gore wants to run, and he has NOT categorically declared that he will not run, the netroots will apparently be on his side. And he will far and away be the leading challenger to Hillary in 2008.

Anyone that claims to know with absolute certainty what Gore's decision will be, as implied by statements like "but he's not running", is simply lying.

CLICK to Draft Al Gore!
by NeoLiberal on Thu Oct 06, 2005 at 08:04:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

... simply lying and praying. n/t (none / 0)


CLICK to Draft Al Gore!
by NeoLiberal on Thu Oct 06, 2005 at 08:07:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Presidential choice. (none / 0)

"I want Dean to run too!!"

but it just aint happening.

by KainIIIC on Thu Oct 06, 2005 at 08:55:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Presidential choice. (none / 0)

Dean has a standing promise not to run in 2008. Gore doesn't.
CLICK to Draft Al Gore!
by NeoLiberal on Thu Oct 06, 2005 at 09:17:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Presidential choice. (none / 0)

Um, how many of the choices in the poll have officially announced that they are running?
by Nina Katarina on Fri Oct 07, 2005 at 07:44:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

None, but... (none / 0)

...there are steps one takes before saying, once and for all, that they are officially in.

Let's use Wikipedia for a good roundup:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._presidential_election,_2008

Evan Bayh, Former governor and currently a U.S. senator from Indiana. In February of 2005, Bayh renamed his political action committee the "All America PAC" and hired a new veteran staff with experience on John Kerry, Tom Daschle, and Wesley Clark's 2004 campaigns.[4] His new staff includes New Hampshire political operative Steve Bouchard, his deputy Chris Smith, longtime Democratic fundraiser Nancy Jacobson, and informal advisor Ronald Klain.
Joe Biden, U.S. senator from Delaware and 1988 Democratic primary candidate. On December 8, 2004, Biden announced to radio host Don Imus: "I'm going to proceed as if I'm going to run." Also, he told Meet the Press host Tim Russert that he "might" run. Grassroots Petition On June 19, 2005, he told Bob Schieffer on CBS's Face the Nation, that it was now his intention to seek the Presidential nomination of the Democratic Party, thus confirming his candidacy, but he also said that he would make his final decision whether to run by the end of 2005 based in part on his ability to raise sufficient funds to conduct a campaign.
Wesley Clark, retired United States Army four-star general and former Supreme Allied Commander of NATO. Clark is travelling widely through his WesPAC political action committee [5], and is a commentator on FOX News, while grassroots campaigns for Clark have become active on the internet [6]. Clark was a 2004 Presidential candidate as well.
Hillary Rodham Clinton, U.S. senator from New York and former First Lady of the United States. While frequently asked by media interviewers about her plans for 2008, she has remained noncommital, saying she is now focusing on her upcoming re-election campaign in 2006. In spite of this, polling organizations generally include her on polls involving likely candidates. She has delivered several speeches, including one on abortion, which analysts say are intended to reach out to moderates. She has also been holding fundraising meetings, including meeting with women from Massachusetts, a key constituency of potential rival and 2004 nominee John Kerry.(a) However, these activities are consistent with the lead up to a campaign for re-election to her Senate seat in 2006. Many Republicans appear to desire Hillary Clinton's candidacy for President, presumably believing her to be a polarizing figure and thus easy to defeat. The popular parody newspaper The Onion ran a headline mocking this attitude, asking "Could Hillary Clinton Have What It Takes To Defeat The Democrats In 2008?"
Tom Daschle, Former U.S. Senator from South Dakota he has set up a new political action committee and plans a Jefferson-Jackson Day speech in the politically pivotal state of Iowa. Daschle has transferred $500,000 into the new committee, New Leadership for America PAC. Hildebrand says the committee will give money to endangered incumbents, support younger candidates looking to run for office and "provide a forum for him to continue to speak out on issues that are important." In July, Daschle said he was not planning a rematch against his successor John Thune in 2010.
John Edwards, former U.S. senator from North Carolina and 2004 Democratic vice-presidential candidate. Edwards has kept his political action committee, One America, to fund his travel and appearances across the nation.[7] On February 5, 2005, Edwards spoke at the New Hampshire Democratic Party's fundraising dinner. On August 18, 2005, Edwards traveled to Waterloo, Iowa to deliver an address to the Iowa AFL-CIO, a potential key supporter in the Iowa caucus. Officially, Edwards refuses to say whether he will run in 2008. [8]
Russ Feingold, U.S. senator from Wisconsin, announced to a meeting of the Tiger Bay Club of Volusia County, Florida, in January 2005 that he was considering a run for the nomination, and would decide after "going around the country" to campaign for fellow Democrats running for other offices [9]. On January 21, 2005, he filed papers with the Federal Election Commission to form the Progressive Patriots PAC, soon to be renamed the Progressive Patriots Fund, a "leadership committee," which will be financing his travels around the country [10]. In early March 2005, his Senate campaign registered the domain name for the Web site www.russfeingold08.com as well as the .org and .net versions [11]. In early April of 2005, Feingold announced that he would be divorcing his second wife, a move which some analysts believe could diminish his chances of winning the presidential nomination. Others, such as blogger Markos Moulitsas Zúniga (better known as "Kos"), have disagreed, pointing to successful Republican political figures with multiple divorces. [12][13] On August 17, 2005, Feingold became the first U.S. senator to publicly support a firm date for withdrawal from the Iraq war [14], suggesting December 31, 2006 as a reasonable date. Although Feingold's stance was generally criticized by other Democratic senators, including Biden and Clinton, his support in nonscientific internet polls of party activists jumped.
John Kerry, U.S. senator from Massachusetts, and defeated in the 2004 Presidential Election. On March 1, 2005, Kerry created a new PAC, Keeping America's Promise, which he plans to use to maintain national visibility and political viability. [15] Dan Payne, a Democratic strategist, told the Washington Post that "This is the kind of thing he has to do" in order to run for president in 2008 [16]. Kerry told CNN, with respect to a run in 2008, "it's crazy to be thinking about it now" but went on to say that "I'll make my judgment when the time comes and I don't care what history says." [17]Unofficial 2008 Website Kerry raised eyebrows when he made a strong statement as to how to lead in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina following Bush's addresss to the nation. [18]
Bill Richardson, governor of New Mexico, former U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, Secretary of Energy and U.S. representative. In February 2005, the Associated Press reported that he has informed party leaders that he intends to run[19].
Mark Warner, governor of Virginia, has not stated whether or not he intends to run in 2008. According to The Washington Post, [20] he has started taking steps towards a presidential run by forming a federal political action committee called the Forward Together Committee and hiring a former top aide to Vice President Al Gore to advise him on national politics. There is also a strong Draft Mark Warner for President movement, and DemStore.com has already started printing Draft Warner campaign pins and bumper stickers. Warner is considered a moderate, and enjoys high approval numbers in red state Virginia. Warner is also able, as the Chairman of the National Governor's Association, to make trips to early primary states nationwide.

Now, here's Gore's entry (below, on "other people mentioned as possible canidates"):

Al Gore, former U.S. vice president from Tennessee, and the 2000 Democratic nominee. In early 2005, reports, including that from Chris Matthews [46] and CBS News [47], said that Gore was considering a run in 2008. Gore has said several times that he doesn't "intend" to be a candidate again, but can't rule it out. He added more fuel to the fire in late April when he joined the heated debate over the Republican's threats to dismantle the filibuster rule in the Senate. Gore gave an hour long speech lambasting the GOP on that issue while hitting hot topics such as religion, the Tom Delay scandal, Iraq, and Social Security [48]Al Gore 2008 Unofficial Website.

Gore is obviously less in that the people in the first group.  Until that changes, vote for "other".

by Geotpf on Fri Oct 07, 2005 at 04:03:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

'real' polls (none / 0)

FOX news has a poll (available on pollingreport) for possible Dem candidates, and Hillary is weighing in at >40%, yet she's only 8% at IRV.  Likewise, Clark pulls 1% amongst the presumably general Democrat audience, yet 42% from the blogos.  I guess the question is, are internet-types ahead of the curve, or hopelessly out-of-step with the vast majority of Democrats?
Obviously you're not a golfer.
by alydar on Thu Oct 06, 2005 at 08:43:40 PM EST

Re: 'real' polls (none / 0)

Hopefully we're ahead, cause Clark can win a GE and Hillary can't!
by ICantBelieve on Thu Oct 06, 2005 at 08:47:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 'real' polls (none / 0)

I go back and forth on that issue all the time.  Are you sure Hillary couldn't win?  I mean, she is a really smart lady
Obviously you're not a golfer.
by alydar on Thu Oct 06, 2005 at 08:50:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 'real' polls (3.00 / 1)

at this point, all the "real" polls are gauging is name recognition.
by johnny longtorso on Thu Oct 06, 2005 at 09:13:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 'real' polls (3.00 / 1)

That's exactly right.  Clinton has the name recognition.  Average voters haven't heard of anyone but her, Kerry, Edwards and Gore.  That'll change.

But in the case of some of these polls, such as Fox, I wouldn't count out the fact that the right wants everyone to think Clinton has the nomination sewn up.  They do that by inflating her numbers.

by hf jai on Thu Oct 06, 2005 at 09:52:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 'real' polls (3.00 / 1)

As much as I admire Hillary, I think her run for pres would be a circus. If we think the GOP attack dogs were bad on Kerry, it would pale in comparison to what they'd do to Hillary.

Can you imagine the lies they'd distribute to everyone in the country by any means possible? It would make Bush's lies about McCain look like a childhood prank.

I'm also thinking that of all the Dem. candidates, the GOP WANTS Hillary to run!

by desertjedi on Fri Oct 07, 2005 at 11:16:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 'real' polls (3.00 / 1)

There are a lot of poorly informed, but very loyal Dem voters out there who like Hillary just because she and Bill were attacked so ruthlessly by the GOP.  It's a principle of drama that protagonists who are wronged by a villain become more likeable to an audience.  

Personally I find little in common with her political stances--pro-war, "free trade" economics, typical DLC bunk.

by Gracchus for Senate on Fri Oct 07, 2005 at 12:21:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 'real' polls (3.00 / 1)

I think I agree with you. At this point in history, I'm just not "in the mood" for a centrist democrat. I want someone who would energize me with their progressive outlook - right now that's John Edwards. I could listen to him talk for hours.
by desertjedi on Fri Oct 07, 2005 at 03:01:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Richardson may have troubles of his own. (3.00 / 0)

Hotline excerpt: "Gov. Bill Richardson (D-NM) could face his own "hurricane" if a "political storm engulfing" Treas. Robert Vigil and his predecessor, Michael Montoya, reaches the GOV office. Vigil and Montoya, both Dems, were arrested 9/16 on federal felony charges "alleging they extorted kickbacks" in exchange for "steering state investment business to them." Both have "pleaded not guilty." NM AG Patricia Madrid (D) moved Vigil "temporarily out of office with pay," but didn't force him to resign."

Richardson's gov. office but some private plane that he got hammered with by the NM GOP.

Buzz about an 08 run: Richardson looking for new campaign consultant The campaign consultant fight in the run up to the primaries.

One really bad thing about Richardson is that there's a strong likelihood that a campaign could end up being less about issues and more about questions about Richardson's characters.

Based on the political climate right now (and how it's not likely to get any better in 06, esp. in regards to ethics, and primaries in late 07), 08 voters might prefer

  1. Experienced leader (doesn't necessarily have to be in politics).
  2. An outsider.
  3. Someone who is "clean" and is known nationally or in his/her state as someone who has integrity.

by Newsie8200 on Thu Oct 06, 2005 at 10:50:50 PM EST

Re: Richardson may have troubles of his own. (none / 0)

Obviously, those things tend to be favorable in general, but a track record needs to be there.  

And I forgot two more

  1. Someone with a positive vision (which neither candidate in 04 really had.)
  2. Someone who is inspirational.

by Newsie8200 on Thu Oct 06, 2005 at 10:52:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Richardson may have troubles of his own. (3.00 / 1)

My father-in-law ran in the Dem. primary back in 2004 in an attempt to defeat Heather Wilson for Congress. He didn't win the primary. The guy who was defeated by Wilson in the prior election was defeated again.

From what I've heard, politics in NM (including Dem politics) is incredibly corrupt and there are alot of Dems who loathe Gov. Richardson - most probably due to the fact that he's bar far more loyal to himself than to the principles embraced by true Democrats.

I just get the feeling that Richardson for pres is a bad idea.

by desertjedi on Fri Oct 07, 2005 at 11:09:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I have a blind spot (none / 0)

I am from the mid-Atlantic region, and I am apparently immune to the appeal of Warner of VA.  He's talked about as if he is some kind of obvious golden boy while, for me, the first impression was that of a laughable doofus.

I suspect that all this fascination with him is really about flipping VA blue, because his opposite number (Allen of VA) gets eerily similar praise from the republican side and, eerily, seems a matching bookend laughable doofus.

I think these two have been tapped as standard bearers in VA (and POTUS electoral cards to be played) and now are both being mythologized...packaged for consumption as political 'junk food' by their respective parties in a race to the...you guessed it...bottom.

I'm not biting.

by cargocult on Fri Oct 07, 2005 at 07:19:48 AM EST

Warner/Clark, Warner/Richardson or Warner/Edwards (3.00 / 0)

I want to see Virginia Governor Mark Warner as the headliner for the next Democratic Party ticket for the Presidency.

I most favor a Warner/Clark ticket.
I like a Warner/Edwards ticket - though Edwards still has a ways to go redeeming himself on the war vote.
I'd even take a Warner/Richardson ticket - though that has the awkwardness of two governors...

I like what Warner has done for Virginia (mostly).  He's brought people together and prevented a strongly neo-con controlled legislature from running roughshod over our rights.

Since I consider it extremely unlikely that either Democrats or even a coalition of Democrats and moderate Republicans can reclaim the US Congress from the neo-cons, the single most important feature I want in our next president is the proven ability to reign in the insanity that the legislative branch will undoubtably try.

by snolan on Fri Oct 07, 2005 at 07:33:05 AM EST

Agree (none / 0)

Count me in as a Warner supporter as well.  
by Eric11 on Fri Oct 07, 2005 at 12:38:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

limited options (none / 0)

...too bad this isn't an open-ended straw poll. We're stuck choosing between the slate of candidates you've suggested. My nominees don't even appear on your slate, so I'm forced to choose few that are. How about a "someone else" option in addition to "unsure"?
by T Dubya Ault on Fri Oct 07, 2005 at 10:41:23 AM EST

Re: limited options (1.00 / 1)

Or even a "None of the Above' as a category.  That might ruffle a few feathers.
by Demo Dan in Dayton on Fri Oct 07, 2005 at 02:20:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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