An Ohio senate candidate who changed his mind

Equal time, New poll too. From the diaries, jerome

No, it's not Sherrod Brown changing his mind about running.  It's Paul Hackett changing his mind about what to do in Iraq.  Yet, everyone talks about a change of heart when it comes to running, but no one talks about a change of heart when it comes to a real substantive issue.  Why is that?  Hypocrisy, perhaps?  

Once again, Sirota nails it:

"Ohio Senate candidate Paul Hackett once told the Washington Post that "we need more straight-talking, straight-shooting politicians." And he has dispatched his staffers to attack Congressman Sherrod Brown (D) for supposedly not talking straight about whether Brown was going to run for the Senate (the two now face a primary). But what is more troubling - a candidate that changed their mind about running for office, or a candidate who hasn't talked straight about their own position on Iraq?

That's right - in the fulminating over Hackett as the supposedly populist champion of anti-war sentiment, it seems many have forgotten that Hackett continues to change his position on the Iraq War whenever it appears politically opportune. For instance, on 7/19/05, the Cincinatti Enquirer reported that Hackett says "the Bush administration...must develop an exit strategy" from Iraq. Two days later, however, Hackett told the Associated Press he did not support ending the war. "We're there now," he said. "We can't cut and run." Then four days later Hackett spoke to the American Prospect. Appealing to that magazine's more progressive readership, Hackett said, "I disagreed with the war." Now, as a candidate for another office running in a primary, Hackett is supporting full withdrawal.

. . . .

Again, let's be clear - Hackett has every right to change his position, just as Brown had every right to decide to run. But the two examples of waffling are clearly not equal in terms of gravity. While some parts of the blogosphere would like to try to make a candidate's reversal of tactical decisions a penultimate sign of "trustworthiness" vs "untrustworthiness," the real penultimate sign of backbone, spine, "trustworthiness" and "straight shooting" is on the issues. One candidate, Hackett, has clearly wavered on those in his short time in politics. Another candidate, Brown, has never wavered on those, even though he has been in politics for a long time taking tough vote after tough vote. And no matter how much spin and hype surrounds this race, them's the facts, whether we like it or not. Hackett folks attacking Brown for his reversal on a tactical decisions are throwing stones from a very, very fragile glass house."



Display:


He was for the war... (1.00 / 2)

..before he was against the war.
by Buckaroo on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 01:45:24 PM EST

Re: He was for the war... (none / 0)

When in god's name was he for the war?

Hey, its not enough for Republicans to tear us down, let's do their dirty work for them!

by dantheman on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 02:55:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He was for the war... (none / 0)

He was a vocal critic of how the war was being prosecuted not of US involvement in Iraq.
by Buckaroo on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:00:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He was for the war... (none / 0)

Lie... he was against the war from the start and said so consistently throughout the campaign.
Editor
Ohio 2nd Blog
by ignatzmouse on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:04:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He was for the war... (none / 0)

I can't find a transcript of his TV commercial, but wasn't the line something like "I supported George Bush.."
by Buckaroo on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:18:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He was for the war... (none / 0)

No... it was the exact same thing that he said during the campaign, that he agreed with the President that there was no higher calling then serving your country in the military. Great ad BTW.
Editor
Ohio 2nd Blog
by ignatzmouse on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:21:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He was for the war... (none / 0)

Do you have a link?
by Buckaroo on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:25:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He was for the war... (none / 0)

http://www.dembloggers.com/story/2005/7/18/62411/9376
http://www.dembloggers.com/story/2005/7/28/152112/247
Editor
Ohio 2nd Blog
by ignatzmouse on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:31:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Are you frikkin Republican? (none / 0)

Listen to the damn ad!

GWB: "There is no higher calling than serving in the armed forces"

PH: "I agreed with that. That's why I served...."

Stop spreading your b.s!

by crazymoloch on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:38:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I should have been replying to.... (none / 0)

... Buckaroo!
by crazymoloch on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:40:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I should have been replying to.... (none / 0)

DAMN YOU! How dare you question my... umm.. ohhh nevermind.
Editor
Ohio 2nd Blog
by ignatzmouse on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:49:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He was for the war... (3.00 / 1)

From Hackett for Congress: http://hackettforcongress.com/index.php?page=display&id=69

"I was against the war. It was a misuse of our military that damaged our credibility throughout the world and squandered our political capital. Still, I volunteered to serve, and I have no regrets. But now we need to face the reality of the situation there. Our country has gone to war and every American must share in that responsibility."

There are a lot of lies floating around the internet about Hackett's positions. It's worht double checking before you belive what anyone writes.

by dantheman on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:06:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He was for the war... (none / 0)

He wan't against the war for the reasons you wanted him to be critical of it? Oh, yeah...that does make sense.

He's definitely a panderer.

by BlueCollarBaby on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:59:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hamlet Brown (3.00 / 1)

Dishing the slime, and being extremely transparent about it.

Hackett's looking better all the time.

by Drew on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 02:05:16 PM EST

Hackett has a letter that talks about Iraq (3.00 / 1)

You can find it here:

http://www.actblue.com/list/PaulHackett

by blogswarm on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 02:16:03 PM EST

Re: Hackett has a letter that talks about Iraq (none / 0)

The letter says he supports "bringing the war in Iraq to a swift and secure resolution."

Does he support withdrawing the troops immediately?

by Buckaroo on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 02:34:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hackett has a letter that talks about Iraq (3.00 / 1)

What does that even mean?
Editor
Ohio 2nd Blog
by ignatzmouse on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 02:39:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hackett has a letter that talks about Iraq (none / 0)

My point exactly.  Does anyone support dragging the war out in Iraq for a slow and insecure resolution.

It is political double speak.

by Buckaroo on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 02:53:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hackett has a letter that talks about Iraq (3.00 / 1)

I'm talking about immediate. You're asking a question that makes no sense. You don't just click your heels and have the troops magically transported home.
Editor
Ohio 2nd Blog
by ignatzmouse on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:05:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The Stops (3.00 / 1)

Wow... Sirota's really pulled out all the stops. Does he think that this barrage is going to work? Why so hard so fast? I'm trying to figure out what the goal is.

Brown's got $2 mill in the bank. He's going to lock up most of the County party establishment...right??? He's got lots of love in the beltway... right??? Why slash and burn so soon?

Brown's a create Congressman and if he can get elected he's make a great Senator, but boy... he really sucks dockey A in his blogosphere diplomacy.

Here's a suggestion for the Congressman: Tell all of you waterboys to shut up until you officially announce. I can't believe that they are helping you any. First the leaks, then the night of a thousand on the dole blog stars, and now Sherman's March. Not good... not good at all.

Hackett was your friend. We were just getting over your going back on your word to him, and now you do this... amazing.

BTW, here's an idea for Sirota as well: why not actually talk to Hackett about the war... I've had the pleasure since the special election and it was really inspiring. It takes a lot of guts to admit to yourself that the thing that you risked your your life over and watched friends die over just just isn't going to be. I can't imagine what that must be like. Neither can you.

Editor
Ohio 2nd Blog
by ignatzmouse on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 02:16:47 PM EST

Contradictions? (3.00 / 3)

I'm unclear to me how the quotes included in the original post represent substantive shifts in Hackett's position.  He says he didn't agree with initiating the war.  Does that mean that he must necessarily advocate ending it immediately?  Certainly not- these are entirely different questions.  He says that Bush must outline an exit strategy.  Does that mean that the exit strategy entail full, immediate withdrawal?  Not as far as I can tell.  As a Senate candidate, he's running for a position that he wouldn't take until January 2007.  I don't believe that a claim like "I will vote for full withdrawal if American troops remain in active combat in January 2007" in any way contradicts "I don't think that we should pull out our troops in July 2005."
by Mason on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 02:23:27 PM EST

Re: Contradictions? (3.00 / 1)

Exactly.  I, too, opposed the war, and I'm also for a scheduled, timely withdrawal, with the end result being no troop presence in Iraq.  Hackett's saying the same thing.  This article is a real stretch.
by zenbowl on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:58:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Contradictions? (3.00 / 1)

It's not just a stretch, it's a hit piece.
Editor
Ohio 2nd Blog
by ignatzmouse on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 04:01:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Contradictions? (none / 0)

I like Paul Hacket but it is amazing how foks are finding ways to justify switches in communicating stratgey for him yet still attacking Brown for deciding to run after initially saying "not now."

by carsick on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 09:47:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I can't take this diary seriously (3.00 / 6)

Two totally different circumstances. In the case of one guy, you had someone who had a meteoric rise with his fight in OH2. No one thought he would go as far as he did. You supported him back then because of it.

If I am understanding the facts correctly- after the lost, people were telling him, Hackett, he maybe should run for Senate if others decide not to run (keyword if others decided not to run)- I remember the diaries on here about the same subject so I got to assume that it was broader than just here. When the political winds were lookign bad for Dems- a lot of good choices bowed out. I remember diaries by you and others here saying that they should run, but then they bowed out anyhow.  Then I remember diaries here saying he should run (again by Bower I think) He was trying to decide in a short amount of time what he wanted to do. The choice was between what he had always done (going back to Iraq) or taking a chance of another a new fight. After being courted by folks on the blog (including by Bowers) where he decided the best thing to do was to run for Senate based on that support. He had a short amount of time to make a decision, and he made one and has stuck with it. The difference is that Brown didn't have a short amount of time- he had a long one.

On the other hand, you have Brown someone being courted for a long time (years right?) who said no back when he thought he would lose. He gave a long list of reasons dealing with family, etc. All maybe valid, but ultimately suggesting that he wasn't ready for the political battle. Remember only a few months have passed- but now those reasons are no longer factors?  It stretches credulity to beleive this. But, it doesn't stretch it to imagine that in a short time someone can when in a period of upheaval come  to a change of mind. Then, with the shifting of the polls he decided to run because now he felt like he had a shot of winning.

Brown has every right to run. So does Hackett. But, the difference upon which they made their decisions does say something aobut each man's character.  One was acting as a call to duty- which spin or not, he has always taken. Another was acting as a call to the change in polling numbers. I beleive both from what I am reading are good guys. The fear of the Hackett people is that Brown's change of mind represents how he will run his general campaign. that he, brown, will try to run it safely. That we have a Kerry situation. Great on paper, but lackluster in an actual fight.  That if the political winds change again, he will not give it his all. In other words, that we have some tealeaves that read differently between what the two candidates will do. We know hackett appears to be a pitbull on the campaign trail- you have to answer will your guy be because it is not how he has been presenting himself thus far. Rather than trying to make fake comparision- demostrate how Brown is now willing to give his all. Say something credible rather than incredible.

I believe from what I've read that either will make a good Democratic Senator if given a chance. But b/s like this diary isn't necessary to help your guy win, and only reinforce the point that there must be fire to the smoke of whether this particular issue is a real one or not.

by bruh21 on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 02:23:38 PM EST

You hit it right on the head........ (none / 0)

.... Steve's right on the money too.

http://stevegilliard.blogspot.com/2005/10/not-so-fast-congressman-brown.html

I've go nothing more to add. He's go zero fight in him. Stay put Congressmen, this is a time for Democrats with guts.

by crazymoloch on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:27:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You hit it right on the head........ (none / 0)

I think he has guts legislatively- I just don't know if he is willing to fight enough to win a campaign that will get dirty in the general election. Lying and dirty is what the Republicans do. This is a crucial part of the discussion glossed over by his supporters because they think the environment is right for the Democrats to win no matter what. We clearly aren't talking policy here- if we were both men sound about the same on most issues. It's more about for them I suspect that Brown is a known vote. That's fine. My issue is with him as a campaigner. Thus far- with this campaign he has been lackluster in his approach.  If one of his supporters had once come out and said- you know you are right- this is an issue and we will do this going forward- then there is more to be respected in that. But, this manipulation is irritating. And his supporters have been insulting to anyone who has even remotely paid attention to these blogs over the last few months.
by bruh21 on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:34:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You hit it right on the head........ (none / 0)

"Lying and dirty is what the Republicans do."

Are you advocating this?

by Buckaroo on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:38:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You hit it right on the head........ (none / 0)

yeah man that's point
by bruh21 on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 04:37:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Garbage (none / 0)

Brown led the fight against CAFTA.  He's been fighting for the average worker against the big monied interests since he got to congress.  I can't tell whether a lot of you Hackett supporters are just unsophisticated or unknowledgeable.
by Paleo on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:37:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Garbage (none / 0)

Brown is a good politician. He's a good progressive too.

But he's wrong for Ohio. He's good for Northeast Ohio, he always has been.

Primaries are good because the candidates go before the entire state.

Misleading posts such as this are horrible for politics and they escalate tensions.

by BlueCollarBaby on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:45:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Garbage (3.00 / 1)

Attack attack attack. Did you read my post above or are you responding only to the most flameable posts. I don't question Browns record, I wonder about whether a) he's as talented a campainger as Hackett (which is a factor) b) I also don't think there is that much difference policy wise between the candidates (I think most of you are doing what I call the Miers approach- namely your problem with Hackett is that he's an unknown quantity whereas Brown is a known one) c) My issue with the discussion is that it's not reflecting the real choice. Brown speaks to the safe way to talk as a Democrat. He will run his campaign that way based on what I am reading here. You understand that so you want that. Hackett speaks in a non traditional way even if he's talking about the exact same issues and is in agreement with your conclusions on the issues. I think for some its hard to understand that form trumps substance. We are essentially arguing stylistic differences and which approach is more appealing. this is a question of which candidate will get through to people. Right now, I am believing it will be Hackett. Not only because of what he says- honestly I was shocked to read a pro lifer supporting Hackett even though Hackett is pro choice. Something Hackett said got through to this pro lifer- and I don't know what it is. But whatever he is saying - I would like to see what that is. Whereas the same effect doesn't seem to occur for Brown. The fact is he's been around a long time in Ohio right? Sometimes it's easier to hear things from a new comer who is saying it differently than to hear it from someone tried and true.

None of what I just said can be read as a flame of either candidate- but it does point out the strengths and weaknesses of either approach.

by bruh21 on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:50:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Garbage (none / 0)

I was responding to this:

"He's go zero fight in him. Stay put Congressmen, this is a time for Democrats with guts."

If that's not an attack, and a sleazy one at that, deserving of a response, I don't know what is.

by Paleo on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:55:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Oui..... (none / 0)

.... I apologize for that. There are a lot of good Democrats out there. I like Sherrod Brown a lot, really. I'm from northeast Ohio, worked on Kerry's campaign with a lot of his supporters. He's done a great job with trying to reform Ohio politics and re-build the state party. He's phenomenal.

His decision to re-enter the race only after DeWine's numbers (and the Republican party's numbers) went south tells me that he doesn't think he can win without a political backlash working against Republicans. Sherrod Brown would be a better vote than Hackett on every issue. But he can't win. A fear he confirmed by bowing out when the polling favored DeWine.

If doesn't think he can win, I'm going to go with someone who can. Maybe Paul Hackett will lose in a landslide. He's only been a candidate for one election, an election he lost. Maybe his warts will show.

But I saw him call Bush a chickenhawk on TV. He strongly defended his position on choice. He stepped up to run in a race everyone had given up on. That takes some kind of guts. People who fear losing tend to make lousy candidates. Paul Hackett didn't show any fear when he ran for office. Its why I voted for Dean. Its why I'll vote for Hackett.

by crazymoloch on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 04:12:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Garbage (none / 0)

Yes, it's an attack on his immediate actions. but, here's the thing that y'all keep avoiding- is it a factual one? You can discount in your own minds what lead up to this, but can you understand why it may concern others that we maybe getting another Kerry in Ohio? Let me explain- as I have said, I am out of state. I don't really much care if it is Brown or Hackett except that I want the Democrats to start to win to get this country back on track. I believe the Republican idealogy is deeply flawed and bankrupt. I believe that the Democrats are the only choice we have for changing things even remotely around, BUT first the Democrats have got to win.

I am commenting on two candidates- who from what I can tell are both mostly progressive. One has a great legislative record- again from what I have read. But, this isn't going to be about his legislative record alone. It's going to be about whether ot not he will fight. Now, going further into my thinking- this is where Brown in the most recent history comes up short.

You can say until you blue in the face that his changing his mind about running doesn't matter. It wouldn't if he had Hackett's context- but it does because in fact Brown had years to decide- not weeks or months.  It is a sign of his passion level that Hackett decided to run and Brown kept trying to figure out which way the winds were blowing.

There is a basic life maxim here that you want to ignore, but which is crucial to why this is not an attack or sleazy: People who really really want something do it no matter what gets in their way. Family, friends and the like are things you deal with- but you do it no  matter what. This is not the same as choosing a war- choosing a career is something different.

I don't know if you are in the process like I am of building a new career that will take a lot of personal risk for me. However, if you are then you know a large part of achieving a goal is the passion for it becuase there are a lot of days where things will be down. The problem that you as a brown supporter face is that Brown's earlier indecision raises real concerns about his passion for winning the job. You can't ignore this as a non issue just becuase it doesn't fit into your desire for him in the positon of Senator.

The result of ignoring it will be that even if we don't bring it up- when the Republicans start to attack it will come back to bite you i n the ass (a la the swiftboating of Kerry- which I even now believe was more about Kerry's lack of true passion as it was about the swiftboat idiots). I have yet to see how or why you feel that your candidate will do any better. I need to see it and my guess is that the Hackett supporters are looking for this as well.

When we talk about guys and fighting- we are talking about 2 types- a) that as a campaigner and b)that as a legislator. Brown being around for a long time may hinder the first, which means he will never get around to doing the second. Whereas I believe both men are about where i am politically, I just think one wants it more than the other. And, that's a  really big deal with it comes to life- and not just politics. I am basically repeating myself because I want you to think about it rather than regurgitate your intertia of repeating it doesn't matter.

And sleazy for the record is Bush saying that McCain had a black baby out of wedlock down in SC just to incite the white racist Republican vote. Sleazy isn't questioning a guys passion to win the office he says he wants to obtain.

by bruh21 on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 04:13:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Garbage (none / 0)

You make perfectly valid points.  I think almost all of them cut both ways.
by Buckaroo on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 04:19:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Garbage (none / 0)

Exactly, I am not pretending Hackett is perfect. His being newbie can be as much a strength, potentially, as a weakness, BUT I happen to think he's a better choice due to his impact for getting through to people whom we haven't been getting through to. And, he getting through saying the exact same things as pro choice, for example, people are trying to do- but he's saying it in a way somehow that people understand. This is a powerful motivator for me to support him to see if like say that Gov from Montana- maybe he's bringing a fresh way for people to understand democrats and progressives to the table.
by bruh21 on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 04:25:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Garbage (none / 0)

I don't see any evidence of his impact for getting through to people whom we haven't been getting through to.  Have you seen any analysis of his election results? I have not.

He is great at firing up the bloggers, but look at us - we are generally already pretty fired up.

by Buckaroo on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 04:30:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Garbage (none / 0)

Bush won the second Congressional district by a 64-36 margin. Hackett did 12 points better than Kerry. and 25 points better than any Democrat in two decades.
by crazymoloch on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 04:43:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Garbage (none / 0)

Several pieces of evidence:

a) the artcle cited by Jerome who is a big supporter of Brown- an article about Hackett. At least anecdotally- some of his supporters were true red meat republicans who were anti choice in the extreme and yet they said somehow hackett got through to them. This was simply fascinating to me. I have on a personal level been able to do that with these types of conservatives on a person by person basis, but if he can have that impact on a larger scale then I would like to test it more. For example, in terms of gay marriage, I have actually convinced a couple of evangelical moderate conservative friends of mine that it's a govt issue not one of their faith, and they say they wouldn't have a problem with civil unions. This taught me that people are reachable, but it depends on how you talk to them. Hackett seems to talk to people in a way that they respond to.

b) In a red blood section of the state he got 48 percent- again a clear sign no matter the turn out (since  only the most hard core turn out for special elections anyway- ie the normal right wing crazies) that his way of talking to people has some impact. People here like to say well but it wasn't such a large number- and I am thinking what better polling service do you need than that consdering only the hard core turn out for these sorts of things, and its the hard core we've been having hard time breaking through to.

c) 2006 is an off election year. You are thinking like a politico. The truth is the numbers will almost certainly be lower next year. Nor should you assume that polling numbers or turn out numbers are enough to win elections alone in a state that at least leans republican given the leaderhsip choices voters have made. We need someone who will fire up people. Brown maybe a great legislature but a win-lose ratio that didn't illustrate a stronger appeal for future races doesn't equal the same as a lose racial that would mean taking  chance but a better calculated risk with Hackett.

by bruh21 on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 04:45:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Garbage (none / 0)

a) anecdotally?  One example is just that one example.  If there was polling or something, I would be more easily convinced.  As it is, the absence of polling makes me wonder what really happened?  (Is that to conspiracy theory sounding?)

b)"since  only the most hard core turn out for special elections anyway- ie the normal right wing crazies"  To be fair only the normal left wing crazies as well and a large portion of the right wing crazies were encourage to stay home.

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050729/NEWS01/507290394/1056

c) I still think his style fires up the base much more than independents and soft republicans.  I don't think threatening to deck a voter at the polls plays well everywhere.

by Buckaroo on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 05:07:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Garbage (none / 0)

a) you don't even have that much for Brown- and that's sort of my point. He's had a lot of years to show that he can speak to people. And, he's partially suceeded in Democratic enclaves- but he hasn't shown that he can appeal. As for the conspiracy- i love the way that the people with the money (2 million) are sitting around acting as though they are the upstarts. who has the money to afford a poll? do you? if you do- commision one. I go with what evidence i have not with shit i need to make up to make someone i  like look good. i made that mistake with the last election- ignoring kerry's warts, and i promised myself never again will i ignore the flaws that are plain to see.

b) two number demolish your argue- 68/32. there is no hard core left in that district. it's moderate to right. the hardcore are the republican wingnuts- not the leftist. sometimes you have to think about what is said to you and whether or not using logic it makes sense. a republican district that is that republican doesn't change its stripes

c) this is speculation. i just know the records of both guys thus far- what they have said and done by both sides. hackett comes out on top in part because he's not acting like a traditional polician- this always wins over indies even if it's not a logical process. most indies i know are motivated by how they drawn to personalities. (also i know this because of readings but unlike you most of the stuff i read- i read for myself so i am not going to be able to pull any stats to back up what i have read). i can put out how the same indie who voted for clinton also voted for bush 2- this is suggests they aren't motivated by the partisan or idealogy divide- but instead by personality of the candidates.

by bruh21 on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 05:29:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You hit it right on the head........ (none / 0)

"He's go zero fight in him."

You know not of what you speak.
I'm glad you are enthusiastic but as Deans enthusiastic net support shows, votes are on the ground and in this case in Ohio.
Saying "What's you're fucking problem" won't win 51% of Ohio's votes.
I like Hackett and thinks he had/has a chance to win the 02 but now things are getting out of control with his campaign.  That's what inexperience can do.  Senate is hard ball where one slip can kill your chances.  Brown is a bonafide liberal who knows how not to shoot himself in the foot.

by carsick on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 10:02:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Flip-Flop Strategy (3.00 / 4)

I'd stand up and cheer if both candidates would stop trying to paint each other as flip-floppers. It just plays into the Republican strategy and is readily accepted by too many swing voters.

Slapping the flip-flop tar all over each other in the very first moments of their struggle will be ultimately self-defeating for both candidates if it continues too long.

Hard to wash that stuff off sometimes. Doesn't have to be true, just needs to stick.

by Curt Matlock on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 02:42:20 PM EST

yeah (3.00 / 1)

Yeah, this looks like it's going to turn in to a needlessly ugly primary fight. And the only one who benefits from that is Assclown DeWine.
by KevStar on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 02:44:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Unnecessary primary (3.00 / 1)

That's why Hackett should run in OH-2 and Brown for senate.  Let the more experienced candidate run for the higher office.  And it's not just Ohio.  I've said the same thing about Minnesota, where Amy Klobuchar and Patty Wetterling are both running.  Klobuchar should be the one for senate, while Wetterling should run again for the open seat in MN-6.  However, the Minnesota DFL party has a convention, where things can be sorted out.  It appears Ohio Dems could use on this year.
by Paleo on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 02:52:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unnecessary primary (none / 0)

They should both run for senate if they want.  Just stop this stupid argument over who is entitled and talk about the issues.
by Buckaroo on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 02:55:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unnecessary primary (3.00 / 1)

How about doing what's best for the party?  Another example of how the Democrats lack the teamwork and discipline the Republicans have shown the last decade or so.  Having Strickland and Brown at the top of the ticket, with strong House challengers like Hackett, and Joe Sulzer in Ney's district, can only help the entire Ohio ticket from top to bottom.
by Paleo on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:00:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

doing what's best for the party (none / 0)

Sounds good, but Sherrod isn't doing that.  

At a time when we are supposed to be trying to add seats, Sherrod will be giving up his more secured seat in the House, to challenge someone who has already galvanized the grassroots support and knows he can attract the inde's and yes, even Republican voters who really do like values of fiscal responsibility, personal freedoms and rights.  Where poll numbers already showed Paul Hackett would win a DeWine matchup of 46/34. Rep Brown never got those kind of numbers.

by LindainCincinnati on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:21:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: doing what's best for the party (none / 0)

That's a bogus Zogby internet poll that was totally unreliable last year.  Doesn't mean a thing.  Everyone knew this was Brown's race for the ask.  At first he declined, but reconsidered.  Hackett only decided right before Brown reconsidered.  It was not like he had spent months and months fundraising and putting a campaign together.  Now, instead of making another run at OH-2, he's acting like a petulant child instead of a loyal Democrat.
by Paleo on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:28:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

rofl (none / 0)

Hackett only decided right before Brown reconsidered.

That's some sweet doublespeak. I might have to borrow some of that later.

by rusty on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 04:28:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: doing what's best for the party (none / 0)

he decided to run after brown decided not run and people went lookign around for a candidate including on this blog- by people like Chris Bowers who until recently supported the idea of a hackett run.
by bruh21 on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 04:36:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: doing what's best for the party (none / 0)

I will ask again, how does Hackett deciding to run when he thought he would be unopposed show he has fight?
by Buckaroo on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 04:41:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: doing what's best for the party (none / 0)

i will answr it this way. it wasn't about him being unopposed. you are tacking that on yourself. and you and others along with the other frames that include a) you are "bashing brown"
b) you are using republican's job for him
c) hackett is conservative (the brown is progressive argument is really a claim about hackett- because i have seen the debate when people point out that hackett is also progressive the response is that he is not) and d) the manipulation of phrases. that later point works if i were some ignorant voter out there not paying attention for the last several months- but please peddle it on someone else. the context here are important. the reason why he waited was out of respect for your guy- you know the thing you keep claiming that hackett doesn't have. the passion part comes through a) his race in oh2 and b) his own words which he has been willing to post over at d kos and other places online if you bothered to read them c) the fact that he is plain spoken (i know, i know- after bush being straight forward is a big sin because all straight forward people must be like bush or the DLC) d) the fact that he has been unambigious since he finally made his decision- no saying- i am going to run, then saying i am not going to run, followed up by i am going to run.

let's compare this to brown- who according to his own supporters has been raising money for a while for his run (a few years right), been building an organization, and then decides because he wasn't sure he could win not to run (the numbers someone gives here i believe shows when his finger got in the wind on this one- ie when bush and dewine numbers went into red danger rather than yellow allert territory- in other words when as a campainger- brown knew that it was a sure thing- or at least that's what yall think).  then he announces that he may run through surrogates to check out interest- and those surrogates have almost immedidately been doing a lot of double speak.

let me be clear- i dont mind any of this other than the whole insulting part where y'all pretend up is not down, and black is not white.

by bruh21 on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 04:58:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: doing what's best for the party (none / 0)

I think I have positions, feeling, ideas, and opinions.  Frames imply I am packaging something to make it look like something else.  I have tried to be honest in my comments.  If we honestly disagree so be it.
by Buckaroo on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 05:19:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: doing what's best for the party (none / 0)

your opinions dont come across as honest disagreement, they come across as repetition of talking points. i dont know if that's because you legitimately feel them or because you are repeating whatyou have heard, but they still feel like talking points. no one can claim that with me- i point out the weakness of my guy as much as i point out the strengths. what are brown's weaknesses? can you admit that he has any?
by bruh21 on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 05:33:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: doing what's best for the party (none / 0)

If I repeat myself maybe it is because I am consistent in my position.  I am not trying to be argumentative.

Time for dinner.  Talk with you later.

by Buckaroo on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 05:48:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: doing what's best for the party (none / 0)

you are being consistent in your inability to see your candidates weaknesses- which by the way scares me more. if you unable to realize your candidates weakness- then you will be unable to adapt and that means we lose again. one of the bigger flaws of the democrats is not just an inability to fight- it's to know how to address risk and adpating to changed circumstances. where in any of your post have you amdited a weakness and provided how  your candidate will overcome the short coming people are concerned aobut. for get hackett for a minute, answer the questions being asked of you rather than lazily saying you support your candidate. now is not the time to get behind anyone like you are getting behind brown. it's the same reason that while i am biased toward hackett i can see him and his strengths and weaknesses and realize that primary that does nt address these issues will putwho ever is running at a diservice when the republicans attack because unlike us- they won't give a fuck about the truth.
by bruh21 on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 06:45:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: doing what's best for the party (none / 0)

I don't see it the same way you do.  I see Brown as a strong traditional progressive.  I mostly agree with his positions.  What I have read from him is articulate and well argued.  I have never met anyone who knows him who does not have great things to say about him.  He has been fighting the good fight consistently and effectively for years.  You keep asking me to address his weaknesses.  I have not found one that Hackett does not share.  Is he perfect? - No, but he is as close as it gets right now.
by Buckaroo on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 07:31:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: doing what's best for the party (none / 0)

My issue with you is that line at the end "that hackett shares." First off they are two very different men- the notion that all Browns weakness is the same as Hackett's is where you lose credibility. Hackett has his own strenghts and weaknesses and you just come across as sychophant with those kinds of responses back.  It's an old political saw horse to pretend that the other guy is just as worse. It allows folks like you to vote without thinking to hard about it. It's what my conservative friends did last year to justify voting for Bush. Brown isn't Bush- but you thinking process is the same as his voters. That's fine, but you need to realize you aren't fooling anyone with that kind of rhectoric. What ends up happening is what you find here- mostly a lot of people who can't quite point there finger on it, but they know something is wrong.

If this is Brown style in the election, it will mean trouble for him because voters will pick up on it. In Ohio - the presumption is against Democrats, not for them. I am not from Ohio, but I did grow up a in a conservative state, and it's like liberal ones- except the presumptiosn are reversed. People won't be giving the Democrats the benefit of the doubt, just because they don't know if they like their Republican choices or not. So your argument has got to be  a damn lot stronger than I like the guy because you aren't the only voter in Ohio. I backed up my shit with recent events- I have yet to see any of you do that for Brown.

Let me tell you what I see as an outsider as succintly as possible. We have two strong progressive candidates- so the issue before everyone is which stylstic choice does one prefer. You base your preference solely on what you feel about Brown, and from there attack anyone who you feel threatens that position. That is essentially what you have done in a nutshell. Anytime someone brings up a new question - your response has been- but they are the same on that issue. My response is- sure that's true if your bias blinds you to context and circumstances. Brown is running the classic insiders race ("I am the true progressive, let's have a civil debate (translation don't rock the horse to my coranation), claims about money and organization, etc. He's depending on that kind of approach to win the primary just as much as Kerry depended on it against his opponents in last years primary. That's fine because that's poltics. Hackett is running the classic outsiders race, populism, speak to the people, speak plainly, etc. He's depending on that approach. Each one seems to fit the guys strengths and weaknesses. It means that the former, Brown, will almost certainly have to run a more cautious campaign than the upstart Hackett. Again, politics 101.  Each probably fits each mans style (but this is just a guess from what I am seeing thus far). However, what I do know is that there is no way based on the approaches they are taking that these two mens weaknesses and strengths are going to be the same just on a logical campaigning style level.

Let me tell you what else is telling of who you are- versus your claim independent thinking. The line at end about "close" to being perfect. If you believe that then of course nothing will ever penetrate some pretty important questions that your side needs to be shoring up. It the classic Bushism of the emperor has no close, but I like him so he's perfect. When it comes to the Republicans- they won't ask "does this guy have any passion" They will simply take a look at what he has done, and attack him relentlessly in the areas in which they think he is weak by using lies and half truths and whatever other shit can stick. The purpose of a primary is to figure out which of the actual weaknesses and strengths in combination makes for a better candidate. By your own thinking you aren't engaged in this debate- instead you are interested in a coranation (afterall he's almost perfect to you so no questions need be asked and if they are then they are "bashing" this perfect guy). I am hoping that the rest of the Ohio Democratic base is asking hard questions about which of these guys will produce a win based on both issues and character. I am not a voter, but I beleive that guy is Hackett- but there is no way in hell you will ever hear me say that he's perfect, or damn near close it.

by bruh21 on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 08:41:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: doing what's best for the party (none / 0)

PS

One of the reason I support Hackett is that next  year will require some risk taking by the Democrats. Brown is showing from his supporters that he won't take those risks. I am hoping  I am wrong, but it's out there in people's mind. You can say until you are blue in the face that the fact he changed his mind after years of consideration is the same as Hackett taking less than a couple of months to decide are the same- but people aren't as stupid as you want to make us out to be. I know he did it because he, Brown, was acting cautiously. To win in a Republican dominated state- I suspect requires the kind of forth right talking style that Hackett creates. Thats why I respect his approach for this race more than Brown because if they agree on most issues, it comes down to who I think will win the race in the long stretch to Nov 2006

by bruh21 on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 08:47:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: doing what's best for the party (none / 0)

incidentally- the nice thing about the net is that one gets to read everything else that someone else has said- i've read your comments not just here but else where- so i know coming into our conversation that you aren't coming across as a guy just interested in a discussion. i am biased, and i neveer pretend i am not, but i also am about trying to figure things out which means admitting where my candidates weaknesses are. for example, you have a tendency to do double speak. someone along this thread will point out a brown weakness- you will then respond by saying its not a weakness- and anyhow hackett has the same weakness. the resutl is you never explain or give evidence that brown's weakness is a problem or how brown has shown as a candidate that he can result them.
by bruh21 on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 05:43:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: doing what's best for the party (none / 0)

Sorry if I gave the impression I am not biased.  Of coarse I am.  I favor Brown over Hackett hands down.
by Buckaroo on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 05:49:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: doing what's best for the party (none / 0)

if this is all you got from my post, it's this kind of selective reading of a post that makes me think you aren't a thinker- just someone regurgitating position. it's what make people question the sincertiy and honesty that you profess to be talking with. instead it comes across as someone who is being crass- despite his supporters on these blogs, i am hoping brown the man is not like this or else we will lose in the general election.
by bruh21 on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 06:40:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm calling bullshit on this comment (none / 0)

You're comment is pretty far out of line.  Just because someone doesn't let you control the debate doesn't mean that they "aren't a thinker" and it's wrong of you to suggest otherwise.  

Why should we be getting so angry at one another?  95% of the people on this site basically agree about most political issues.  

I have a close friend who proudly voted for Bush, twice.  When he explained why, my head almost exploded in frustration.  But you know what?  Each of us is entitled to sort these type of things out for ourselves.    

We are not given a vote conditioned upon our wise and benevolent use of it. Democracy is rooted in respect for the autonomy and dignity of each person as a rational and moral agent agent.  And part of that means that we must respect the decisions of others even when they are made for what seem like the most foolish or capricious reasons.  You are free to think that someone is an idiot for supporting candidate X, Y, or Z.  But you ought not to try to brow-beat them into submission to your point of view.  

So to recap:

  • Thinking someone is an idiot: Fine.  Go for it tiger.

  • Treating someone like he is an idiot: It's a grey area.

  • Calling someone an idiot:Bad juju

I have no horse in this race and you're welcome to check my comments on the matter to verify this.  So please understand I'm only commenting as a member of this community.

Visit my blog Say No to Pombo
by Matt Lockshin on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 08:21:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm calling bullshit on this comment (none / 0)

It's not control of the debate that's the issue. It's the fact that he won't even admit his candidate has weaknesses. If by respectful you mean accepting his lack of critical thinking about what he just said- then yes guilty as charged. Read what else he says above about his candidate "not being perfect, but damn near being as close as anyone can be." Does that phrase sound like someone who being a critical thinker? Or what about the part where he says these men are exactly the same on their weaknesses- does that sound like someone being critical? Do Brown and Hackett seem like the same kind of men to you? Disagreement is fine- but it has at least got to be in the realm of honesty or else it just me trying to make nice to keep the peace.

I also have friends from a wide spectrum. I am a gay black moderate with straight white evangelical conservative friends and on the other divide liberal athiest friends. So telling me I am not respectful of other opinions is just simply not true.

Finally, stop trying to get in my head. Meaning, you don't know what I am thinking or feeling- all you can determine is what I have written. All this stuff about me being angry is simply you trying to get into how I feel. You don't and won't know that. What I think, if you read what I said, is that these two guys are very similar politically- we are discussing which stylistic approach will win the general election and which stylistically is the direction the party should go in. to have a real discussion of that- you first have to have someoen who is not saying their candidate is near perfect.

by bruh21 on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 08:59:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm calling bullshit on this comment (none / 0)

I did read what you had written, and it came across to me as angry in tone.  I am an otherwise neutral observer, so take it for what it's worth.    

Furthermore, I did not say that you are not respectful of other opinions, I said you were not being respectful of other opinions.

I don't know you, as you so rightly pointed out, and was not making a claim about your character traits or dispositions.  All I was commenting on was the lack of respect I saw in certain specific comments.  Again, take it for what it's worth.  

Visit my blog Say No to Pombo
by Matt Lockshin on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 10:54:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm calling bullshit on this comment (none / 0)

That's the second time you said you are neutral. The fact you said it twice means you are really, really are not neutral. It's not worth much considering you are zero'ing the tenor of the comments of the guy you are defending. Below in response to why someone thinks Brown may lose, he responses simply with a one line zinger "Hackett is a loser." This is the thinking you are defending as entitled to respect. Which by the way, I am not exactly sure how telling someone that they aren't thinking is not respectful of them? Are negative characteristics which happen to be true unfair? Are we always suppose to tell each other you are doing good by thinking that when in fact I believe that he is not? What's the more honest debate- the one you want to police and create or the one we are having? Were your friends who voted for Bush really thinking about his record? And if you can't say so- what  kind of friendship do you have with them? Rather than coming online to project all this stuff on to me why don't you try to be a little less passive agressive and consider your own stuff. By the way, just be to be clear, I am offering you a suggestion to help you out, and it's not because I am angry (but then I must be because I am disagreeing honestly with someone and telling them that I don't agree withthe way they are thinking.)
by bruh21 on Sat Oct 22, 2005 at 02:54:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unnecessary primary (none / 0)

I agree with you, Buckaroo, as opposed to the smoke filled room scenarios
by KevStar on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 05:29:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unnecessary primary (none / 0)

this is one of those silly points- who is in the main arguing that both men shouldn't run? the questions raised are about the nature of both mena and what weaknesses and strengths they bring to the table- and what those will be in the general. i love the flip of language though. questioning brown is saying he shouldnt run. asking questions about brown is bashing him. saying anything negative about brown is playing into the republicans hand. so essentially you leave your opponent unable to say or do anything other than annoint your guy with a quiet but ultimately not very fruitful primary.
by bruh21 on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 05:36:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unnecessary primary (none / 0)

I mean more about the tenor of those here. I figure either one of the guys running is an adult and can handle whatever flies. It's some of those tearing their garments here that have me thinking maybe some of the sturm and drang is maybe misplaced.
by KevStar on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 07:48:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unnecessary primary (none / 0)

it's just an online debate- so what's the problem with vigorous discussion. our impact is nil unless someone happens as an off chance to read them. the point of me being here is to crystalize in my mind what i think and find what other people are saying. i also want to change the minds of the few people who happen to be listening or have them change my mind. which has happened here when discussing things. also i am trying to get a sense of where things are going in the rest of the country.
by bruh21 on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 09:03:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unnecessary primary (none / 0)

Since when was the blogosphere about supporting beltway insiders over exciting new candidates who are forces for change?

Sherrod Brown has been in Washington since 1990, during which time the party has lost control of the House, the Senate and the White House.

Is this Sherrod Brown's fault? No, of course not. But I'd hardly count 16 years of experience in this environment (after losing his last statewide election) as a plus.

by dantheman on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:00:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unnecessary primary (none / 0)

Brown was elected in 1992.  Since being there he has fought the big money DLC-minded leadership that has cost us in election after election.
by Paleo on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:11:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Good for him......... (none / 0)

He's also from a safe district. Paul Hackett has more experience than Brown when it comes to running in competetive races. Its a lost easier to stand for Democratic ideals when you know you can't lose your seat. Paul hackett stood his crowd in wingnut country, no small feat!

If Brown is basing his judgement on DeWine's poll number, I don't want him to run. It just just shows me that he can't take the heat. 2006 isn't for cowards.

by crazymoloch on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:35:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"More experience" (none / 0)

WTF?!  Brown ran three times for Secretary of State, winning twice.  All competitive races.  Hackett has what, two months, of experience in running a competitive race.  
by Paleo on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:40:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "More experience" (none / 0)

Since you're such fan of Brown, would care to explain why he took so long to commit to the race? Do you honestly think he has the fire to run a competetive race?
by crazymoloch on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:43:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "More experience" (none / 0)

  1.  Who cares.

  2.  Yes.

by Paleo on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:44:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "More experience" (none / 0)

You should care about a candidates passion for running for a position. When times get tough it will be the thing that gets him over the hill or causes his campaign to crash and burn. What are your recent in history reasons for thinking Brown has the passion other than the changing polls? I ask this because citing older races is useless for this sort of question- passion is an immediate feeling, and not someting one can draw on from the distant past
by bruh21 on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:55:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Passion (none / 0)

He just recently was the bi-partisan leader in the fight against CAFTA.  If you saw his speeches or special orders, you would have seen someone with passion.
by Paleo on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:58:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Passion (none / 0)

again- the hard thing you seem to be getting over the hill of paleo- is that my comments aren't about brown the legislator. It's about that part of him that will be seen on the campaign trial (that's what it is). the very fact he said- i can't do it for family- even if it is true, means that he is less passion than hackett at the moment because he said he couldn't do it. in business, where i used to work people who were equally qualified often lost out on jobs because they said other things were more important to them than the job. i understand their reasoning- and i agree with it. but at the end of the day- when choosing a candidate - i go for someoen who hasn't given me a reason to question whether they really want the job.
by bruh21 on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 04:21:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Passion (none / 0)

If Hackett got in after he had assurances that Brown wasn't running, where is the fight in that?
by Buckaroo on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 04:25:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Passion (none / 0)

It's called respect and loyalty. I know in this day and age those are bizzare concepts. When they said they weren't running, he has been unambigious. Brown has no such context, which is the important part for anyone looking at this.
by bruh21 on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 04:29:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Passion (none / 0)

For your point to be vaild (which I am not rulin out), Paul Hackett would have to an enormous asshole  AND a coward. Why an normous asshole? After all the help Brown gave HAckett in the OH-2 and then to turn  around and challenge Brown in a primary Hackett knew Brown had an interest in would be a pure asshole/Henry Cuellar move.
by crazymoloch on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 04:30:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Passion (none / 0)

No judgement here, but maybe he is.  Who knows?
by Buckaroo on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 04:32:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Passion (none / 0)

and now we cross over into pure speculation. Maybe the sun will careen into the earth tommorrow- right now all we got are what we know of the candidates from the public record.
by bruh21 on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 04:34:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Passion (none / 0)

I am all for discussing public records.
by Buckaroo on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 04:36:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Passion (none / 0)

okay thanks for that. i really really appreciate it. really i do.
by bruh21 on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 04:48:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Word of advice (3.00 / 1)

They want you to engage them in this phony, sophmoric war by making the issue about who got in and when.  That way they can divert from the real issues, and the fact that other than Iraq and gun control, Hackett is a total blank slate.  He makes Harriet Miers look like Oliver Wendell Holmes.
by Paleo on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 06:11:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "More experience" (none / 0)

Who cares? Brown waits for the political winds to blow his way. Hackett doesn't give a fuck about the political winds. He makes his own  wind. That's the difference.

A Senate seat is powerful platform. What the Democratic party needs more than anything right now are candidate who can use their platform to trumpet Democratic values. Brown himself doesn't think he can win without the political currents going his way. What happens when the political tides turn against Democrats in the future? Why should Brown think he could win then?

Brown might beat DeWine in 2006. As his waffling has demonstrated, if 2012 is bad year Democrats has zero chance of retaining his seat. Hackett can stand on his own. Brown can't.

by crazymoloch on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:55:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Please (none / 0)

What political wind?  Coingate was around for months when Brown intially declined to run.  That has more impact in Ohio than any dip in Bush's poll numbers, which have been dipping all year.  I don't know why he changed his mind.  Family reasons could have played a part, and the possiblity of a house leadership position could have been a factor as well.  I think this is something Brown should explain, perhaps at his official announcement.  But it is not the big deal a lot of folks are making it out to be.  Enough already!
by Paleo on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 04:02:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Please (none / 0)

It is a big deal, unless he explains it.
by crazymoloch on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 04:13:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Please (none / 0)

Dewine's June numbers
Approve 45%     Disapprove 37% (SUSA)

Bush's June numbers:
Approve 48     Disapprove 47 (CNN)
Approve 48      Disapprove 43 (FOX)
Approve 47      Disapprove 47 (NBC)

Dewine's August numbers (I'd bet they're worse now)
Approve 42%     Disapprove  43%

Bush is in the toilet now.

by crazymoloch on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 04:21:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Please (none / 0)

the point is that his mind had to be changed and that you should care about the reasons why. above i believe it was you who mentioned hackett changed his mind due to respect for other members of his party running- so apparently it is important to you as an issue. the question here is what are context of brown deciding not to run, and then deciding to run, and whether those factors should shape what we think of him as a candidate. and as for the numbers- there weren't any local numbers that were doing as i understand it a match up until fairly recently.
by bruh21 on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 04:32:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unnecessary primary (none / 0)

Clearly experienced politicians do a better job at winning elections.
by crazymoloch on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:28:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unnecessary primary (none / 0)

Not true at all or else, on a common sense level, you would never have newcomers beat incumbents. The power of incumbency, of the pulpit, as Bush will tell you, is a powerful thing. However, it's also clear that a vital energy can be found in a newcomer because they change the debate and how we speak about the debate. Which can be a thing that an older politician can't necessarily do. They tend to be more cautious. The question is in OHio is caution the way to go. That's how I divide my views about Brown v. Hackett. Not whether one is bad or not- but what are circumstances of them running? What does the Democratic need right now? I believe more than anything it needs new blood and new ideas in the ranks of its leadership.
by bruh21 on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:38:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

them isn't the facts (none / 0)

And picking and choosing pieces of a statements don't tell the story.  I think this paragraph says alot.

"The blogs were here for Hackett, and here for me," Brown told The Associated Press, holding his hand high for Hackett's support level and then lowering it for his own. "Now, they're even and that was the only place he had any advantage before."

by LindainCincinnati on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:08:29 PM EST

This is NOT inconsistent (3.00 / 3)

Paul Hackett's "waffling" is actually consistent with most of us who initially opposed the invasion -- and in fact mirrors my own personal views about this issue.

I always opposed the war, but felt for a long time that withdrawing our troops would be irresponsible because we had created that mess and couldn't just "cut and run."  That generally sounds like the position Hackett took last July in the congressional race.

But as our occupation gets worse every day, and that we are literally fueling the insurgency just by being there, my views -- and apparently Paul Hackett's views -- have evolved.  Now we are convinced that the only sensible thing we should do is withdraw our troops -- and withdraw them immediately.

It's one thing to pander and flip-flop.  It's another to honestly change your mind as circumstances dictate.  

As Abraham Lincoln once said, "I'd rather be right some of the time than wrong all of the time."

by Paul Hogarth on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:17:03 PM EST

Primary's are not so bad as (none / 0)

long as they are not nasty.  Although I favor Brown due to his congressional & fundraising experience, democrats of OH will be the ones to make the decision.  My advice to Brown & Hackett is to keep it positive!
by Andrew on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:17:17 PM EST

Our Collective Noses (none / 0)

Yo, you all have got to stop this.  There is no better way to have a Republican discredit a Democrat than to do the damn job for them!!!!

This doesn't benefit the people of Ohio, the Democratic party, or our chances of winning anything!

Sean

by SeanBroom on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:29:16 PM EST

Out of line. (3.00 / 2)

Ok. Usually I don't get angry. Usually I'm cool tempered.

But man, this post is MISLEADING. It seems as if anything Sherrod and his team of bloggers want to push this to civil war within the Ohio Democratic Party.

Paul Hackett has repeatedly talked about the horrors of war and about his EVOLVING position. He has never claimed to have a rock solid position. In fact, he has said repeatedly "That's how I feel now, but keep in mind I just got back from Iraq." If it sounds like his view is changing, that's because he's developing one.

People that say we need to pull out right now. End of story. Are as bad as Bush when he says we need to "stay the course." The Iraq conundrum is nuanced and full of dynamite. Hackett realizes that.

He's been there. Something other Ohio politicians can't claim to.

If you think he's pandering, I would urge you to read up on his statements...such as the two mother jones articles that have been published.

If you don't think he's pandering, and you are just positing these claims out there to the political advantage of a particular senatorial candidate you support. Shame on you. You're escalating the Ohio situation.

by BlueCollarBaby on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:42:35 PM EST

Re: Out of line. (1.00 / 2)

I think he's pandering.  Hey, just my lowly opinion.
by Buckaroo on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:44:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Out of line. (none / 0)

And I think you're a troll.
Editor
Ohio 2nd Blog
by ignatzmouse on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:51:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Out of line. (2.00 / 2)

Just because you think the sun rises and sets on Hackett and I don't doesn't make me a troll.
by Buckaroo on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:57:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Out of line. (none / 0)

No, the fact that you question the motives without knowing the man makes me label you a troll. The fact that you attack someone who volunteered to fight in a war that he was against makes me label you a troll. The fact that you question the integrity of someone that had the courage to fight in a district that just about everyone, including the bloggers here thought was hopeless makes me label you a troll.

As someone who's listened to Paul Hackett talk about his position on the war while his wife and three young children were nearby I know damned well that you are nothing but a troll. I listened to him talk this way when everyone assumed that Sherrod Brown was going to be our next Senator. You know nothing about the man. You are a troll.

Editor
Ohio 2nd Blog
by ignatzmouse on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 04:07:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Out of line. (2.00 / 2)

Chill buddy you're going to burst a blood vessel.

"I am officially declaring that all people writing and blogging about the Ohio Senate race, including myself, need a time out.
Everyone march up to your rooms and be quiet until your father gets home."

by Buckaroo on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 04:12:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Out of line. (none / 0)

Yeah...

OK...

I'm going...

Editor
Ohio 2nd Blog
by ignatzmouse on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 04:16:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Not a troll (none / 0)

No, the fact that you question the motives without knowing the man makes me label you a troll.

Actually, that doesn't make him a troll. A troll is someone who joins an internet conversation (whether message board, blog, or chat room) to intentionally cause a ruckus, often using foul language, but in general, just being offensive for the sake of being offensive.

Like if I went on RedState and started trashing Republicans. That's trollling. Or if one of them came over here.

Having a difference of opinion, even an uninformed opinion, does not make one a troll. It may mean you're ignorant, but again, not a troll.

TAKE BACK OUR PARTY: Democracy Bonds
by LiberalFromPA on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 04:49:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not a troll (none / 0)

That about nails what he's doing on the head
Editor
Ohio 2nd Blog
by ignatzmouse on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 05:50:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not a troll (none / 0)

you should never let online discussions stress you out. i mean whats the point? just bluntly state your postions and arguments and then see if you agree or disagree with theirs and be willing to just go there with the full debate.
by bruh21 on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 09:07:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I am sure Brown is a good guy and all......... (none / 0)

But we REALLY need a guy like Paul Hackett go against DeWine. Hackett is not just another Democrat challenging a Republican. There is nothing regular about Paul Hackett at all. He was quoted in Time magazine saying "Democrats are addicted to losing" and he hit it on the head. Why do we keep running loosing candidates?

We need a new kind of Democrat to go and fight. Not just another congressman. And we know Paul loves to fight!!!

Lastly how would Brown get the crossover votes? I keep reading he could get more money. Tell you what, money does not buy votes. Hackett will have a lot of earned media exposure, Ohio state Democrats will get behind him, and he will get the vote of Independents and moderate Republicans. Not to rip the guy but can Brown get a cross over vote in a state that sits around 51-49%?

by Demrock6 on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 04:01:15 PM EST

Re: I am sure Brown is a good guy and all......... (2.00 / 2)

"Why do we keep running loosing candidates?"

Hackett is a losing candidate.

by Buckaroo on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 04:05:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Not just another Democrat (3.00 / 1)

Brown is not "just another Democrat."  He's not some bland, middle of the road candidate like, say, Claire McCaskill in Missouri.  He's a populist Democrat, who understands that if the party is to win it has to recapture the voters who will respond to a populist economic appeal, if one is offered, and who, if one is not, will be open to the Republicans' social wedge issues.  If you want the Democratic party to stand for something, support Brown.  If you want to follow internet chic and support a candidate who is a virtual blank slate, support Hackett.
by Paleo on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 04:12:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Where's the inconsistency? (2.00 / 2)

"I disagreed with the war, but we're there now, so we can't just cut and run.  I support full withdrawal and the Bush administration must develop an exit strategy."

What's wrong with that?  Seems perfectly reasonable to me.  

I'm pretty pissed off that mydd has become a shill for Brown.  It seems hypocritical considering what was said about Casey-Pennachio.  
You're welcome to support dumpy, little, welfare state liberal Sherrod Brown, I'm supporting a guy who has a chance to win statewide.
Go Hackett.

by ChgoSteve on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 04:03:01 PM EST

Re: Where's the inconsistency? (none / 0)

"dumpy, little, welfare state liberal Sherrod Brown."

Spoken like a true Republican.  I know the Hackett people argue that he can attract Republicans, but I hope this attitude towards the welfare state and liberals does not mean that Hackett is really a Republican.

by Paleo on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 06:20:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Who are you calling a Republican? (none / 0)

I'm a 100% Deanocrat, and I see in Paul Hackett many of the same qualities that make Howard such a breath of fresh air-- directness, libertarian views, and independence from beltway mentality.
It will be easy for Dewine to paint Brown as too far to the left for Ohio, so I'm supporting the candidate who has proven his appeal to moderate voters.  If Hackett can repeat his 47% performance in the second district, he'll win the state.  It's as simple as that.

by ChgoSteve on Sat Oct 22, 2005 at 12:13:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

dumpy, little, welfare state liberal Sherrod Brown (none / 0)

Those are your words.  That line would make Newt proud.  Stick it up your libertarian ass.
by Paleo on Sat Oct 22, 2005 at 03:01:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: dumpy, little, welfare state liberal Sherrod B (none / 0)

Get used to "welfare state liberal" because that's how DeWine's people are going to try to portray him.
I acknowledge that "dumpy, little" was over the top.  I had a knee-jerk reaction to the stupidest posting to ever make the front page of mydd.
by ChgoSteve on Sun Oct 23, 2005 at 05:39:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This is obsene (3.00 / 1)

I am ashamed of Sirota, and if this is organized by the Brown campaign, ashamed of them.  Frankly, I hadn't yet decided whom to support, I have seen benefits in both side's arguments.  But this may have been the straw to break the camel's back for me.  What in the h-ll was Sirota (and/or Brown) thinking with this hit piece?  Its not only incorrect, its ammunition for the Rethugs to use on Hackett should he win.  Despicable.  Truly despicable.  As any number of people have already pointed out here, the first thing I thought when I read Sirota's garbage attack was: THOSE ARE NOT INCONSISTENT positions.  Shame, shame, shame.  This is exactly what we do not need in this race, and exactly what will make Sen. DeWine retain his seat.
by kelvinchapman on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 04:35:25 PM EST

If this shit continues (none / 0)

...we will have lost an easy pickup.
TAKE BACK OUR PARTY: Democracy Bonds
by LiberalFromPA on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 04:59:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This is obsene (3.00 / 1)

If Brown had anything to do with it, it was probably returning fire after all the crap the Hackett campaign staff (and their dupes) were posting about him.  The lies about his wife attacking Hackett's record, the lies about the timing of his decision to get into the race, the remarks that Brown should have a dunce cap on his head, etc.  I can't blame him, if he was involved.  I doubt he was, though.
by ratdg1 on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 05:06:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This is obsene (none / 0)

I've talked to several people who were at the event and they have confirmed Brown's wife's comments about Hackett going back to iraq. Brown telling Hackett that he wasn't running for Senate is absolutely true and was up on his website before he scrubbed it.

If you want to call people liars, back it up with facts. What was a lie? Who said it? When did they say it?

If you like, I can provide you with an audio transcript of an interiew I did with a woman who is a WWII vet in which she gives her description of the event in question.

I thought that we were over this, but I guess not.

Editor
Ohio 2nd Blog
by ignatzmouse on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 06:07:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Paul Hackett for Senate (none / 0)

That is obviously NOT any consistency in stances on Iraq. It's pure bs.
by LA Democrat on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 04:48:42 PM EST

This Blog (2.50 / 2)

MyDD should have a large and noticeable disclaimer at the top of the homepage that says "This Blog Endorses Sherrod Brown for U.S. Senate and It's Publishers Consult on the Brown Campaign" or something similar.

Burying your political affiliations in your signature doesn't cut it.

TAKE BACK OUR PARTY: Democracy Bonds
by LiberalFromPA on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 04:58:15 PM EST

Hackett did not change his position (none / 0)

Paul supports a exit strategy with a timely removal of troops.  In a way, both of Hackett's "waffling" statements compliment his policy view on Iraq.  This diary begins with a weak foundation and ends with a collapsed house of cards.
by optimusprime on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 05:03:09 PM EST

continuous distortions and name calling (none / 0)

THis is one constant I keep seeing over and over and over again from Brown people here on this blog.  Nothing substantiative, just name calling, bashing and making things up as you go along.

You're not going to win much support with these tactics.  You picked up the wrong handbook.  This is not a press conference where you can make a lie or a statement and walk away.  Your attacks are losing you more points.

by LindainCincinnati on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 05:14:46 PM EST

Re: continuous distortions and name calling (none / 0)

Kiss my @$$.  Paul Hackett, his staff, and his bloggers revel in finding more and more insulting ways to describe Sherrod Brown, then have the gaul to complain when someone fires back?

Too bad.  My vote cancels yours out.  And I was undecided about who to support until I started reading the utter crap coming out of Paul Hackett's camp about Brown. If Brown's supporters wants to fire back, more power to them.

by ratdg1 on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 05:19:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: continuous distortions and name calling (none / 0)

Really.  Proof lies here with again.  This post alone has many examples of your nastiness.  You'll have to show us these because the only insults I
've been seeing has been made by the Brown people.  Just take a look up thread and stop calling us names.
by LindainCincinnati on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 05:35:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: continuous distortions and name calling (none / 0)

Yeah, cause when Hackett says things like "Brown should be stuck in the corner with a dunce cap" or calls him a traitor to the Democratic party, when people refer to Brown as a "JOe Lieberman DLCer" etc.  that's not calling him names?

Can you explain how that works?  Please?  

by ratdg1 on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 05:45:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: continuous distortions and name calling (none / 0)

First of all, it has been his supposed staff and supporters that have been attacked and called names.  Then the distortions of what Paul Hackett has said.  

So my I ask where your comment of claiming he called him a traitor is?  Where, link?

by LindainCincinnati on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 05:59:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: continuous distortions and name calling (3.00 / 0)

Hackett and his staff have gone negative. In this article Michael   , a top Hackett advisor, calls Brown "dishonorable, disloyal" and that eh betrayed Democracy:

http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/news/1128682669151650.xml&coll=2

That is not only a major attack, it is also hyperbolic.

In the famous mother jones article, Hackett says Brown should be "put in the corner and wear a dunce cap:"

http://www.motherjones.com/news/update/2005/10/hackett.html

In this article, Hackett says a Brown victory over DeWine would simply be a "game of musical chairs for professional politicians:"

http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/news/1129368963179170.xml&coll=2

That implies that he thinks Brown and DeWine are the same. Not as negative as the other things, but still a negative attack.

These are three things, two negative things said by Hackett himself , and a remark at least implying that Brown is a traitor form a close friend and Hackett advisor.

I have seen negative things about Hackett from Brown supporters, big and small on these blogs. I have seen far more negative things about Brown from Hackett supporters (including calling him a Buffoon, a coward" an "asshole," here is one link:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/10/17/164639/76

 I can show you some more of those links if you like). I have not seen one from anyone working for Brown or closely associated with him. If you have seen one, please show me the links.

by jschiffer3 on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 10:16:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: continuous distortions and name calling (none / 0)

I forgot. Hackett's people promised to make it "nasty"

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-primaries13oct13,0,7258757.story?coll=la-home-n ation

so I do not think it is a strech to say his staff is doing this and not just his supporters.

by jschiffer3 on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 11:28:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

woops (none / 0)

The Hackett guy's last name is Brautigam  
by jschiffer3 on Sat Oct 22, 2005 at 12:33:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: continuous distortions and name calling (none / 0)

It's a Primary don't expect hugs and kissing.
Running the Davis, Nelson Klein team in Florida.
by Liberal on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 10:59:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: continuous distortions and name calling (none / 0)

Fine, you are Hackett supporter though. Do you agree that your guy has been more negative than Brown? See:

http://mydd.com/comments/2005/10/21/131214/44/131#131

for a recitation.

If you do not agree, I would like to see links (from Brown, or staff, including Tigaris and Armstrong).

If you think negative is appropriate, fine. I disagree, but I think it is pretty clear where most of the the negativity is coming from.

by jschiffer3 on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 11:12:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

christ enough already (3.00 / 1)

we have two good candiates. they're going to have a primary. I think it's one thing if you're an actual Ohio voter to back one over the other in a primary fight, but otherwise we're getting hoist on the blogosphere petard if we get sucked in to Brown v Hackett.

unless there's someone here who would actually not like to see either as a Senator from Ohio. I mean, let's all get a grip and not microconcern ourselves with this or the whole fucking thing is going to blow up in our face, capiche?

I like Hackett. I like Brown. The voters will decide and that lucky guy will get a couple hundred crime bucks from me. Until then we should all sit back and listen to the music.

by KevStar on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 05:42:04 PM EST

Re: christ enough already (none / 0)

i agree- but fairness takes two to tango. above i tried the honest approach that i believe in. namely that these are two guys with strengths and weaknesses that need to be talked about. i happen to fall on the hackett divide because i think the combo that hackett has is the right one for the national party, and from what i understand the dems in ohio need this kind of approach too, but at the end of the day i know my thoughts aren't about a perfect person. i think part of this discussion is based on building up ones choice as perfect and other as evil
by bruh21 on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 09:10:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"penultimate" (3.00 / 1)

Err, hate to be all pedantic, but "penultimate" means "second to last." Perhaps you're looking for the word "quintessential"? Or just plain old "ultimate" would do...
by shagraha on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 07:47:51 PM EST

You NEVER try to Intimidate a MARINE! (1.00 / 1)

I guess we have some paid staffers here who are engaging in hypocritical banter.

In one end they say, "let's play clean & have a fair, decent primary". 24 hours later, they throw jabs and kicks at Paul Hackett".

LISTEN Paleo & the rest of you who are distorting Paul Hackett's record - YOU"RE ON!

Let's end this B.S. & May the Last man standing be the nominee.

Yes, Brown will have ALL THE ADVANTAGES in the PRIMARY due to his " Years of being a Traditional Politician which translates to Organization, Patrionage, Machinery.
( unfortunately, that Democratic Machinery WILL BE NO MATCH to the GOP State Machinery)

But Hackett supporters in Ohio & across the nation will be GIVING PAUL 200% of our support.

Stop this Symbolic, Ideology B.S! We're here to WIN IT ALL, NOT make some Statement!

I can GUARANTEE you the Paul Hackett WILL GET SUPPORT ACROSS ALL  50 STATES!

ONE BIG FIGHT! PAUL HACKETT FOR SENATOR!

Brown is JUST WAY TOO LIBERAL FOR OHIO to WIN !
We are ALL TIRED OF LOSING with the same Left of Ohio Candidates!

by labanman on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 09:08:46 PM EST

Re: You NEVER try to Intimidate a MARINE! (none / 0)

I support Hackett-but your post is as way over the top as Brown.
by bruh21 on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 09:14:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You NEVER try to Intimidate a MARINE! (3.00 / 0)

As you know Bruh, I support, Brown. I disagree with most of what you say, although I respect that you have been trying to keep things civil.

However, I have to disagree that Brown has gone "over the top." I have yet to see an attack on Hackett by Brown or anyone on his staff (including Tigaris or Armstrong). I have seen attacks on Brown by Hackett and his staff as I outline here:

http://mydd.com/comments/2005/10/21/131214/44/131#131

If you have seen anything approaching this from Brown, or anyone on his staff, I would appreciate seeing the links.

by jschiffer3 on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 10:24:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You NEVER try to Intimidate a MARINE! (none / 0)

See- it depends on what you mean by civil-- not to get Clintoneque cute with this, but the truth is a lot of the stuff I read and hear out of the Brown people in passive agressive. It's along the lines of dropping a bomb in the room, and then being shocked that people don't respond kindly to it.

If someone questions Brown's actions and character, then they are being a) bashers of Brown (as you said I have been civil and I have gotten this comment more than once) b) Republican in hidding (seem that one, but haven't got that one) c) what ever point is brought up is then of course a weakness that both candidates share (this is the new tactic of the last couple of days which by the way makes me think its coordinated or people are just reading each others thoughts and posting diaries, I don't know but it is weird that the attack happened at the same time)and d) throw whatever at the wall to see what sticks (ie, he's got more organization, but when I ask does that means if he loses the primary that he will not devote this organization to Hackett- people shut up which tells me its a throw whatever at the wall to convince approach). As Bob Bingham whose style I don't completely agree with has said- if you are going to bring it, then bring it. And as I say- don't do this passive agressive stuff (not you personally) and then become surprised that some may react sharply to it. Or as one of my pol sci prof used to say- don't piss on people and tell its sunshine (yes he was a character). And, for the record, I am seeing all sorts of new throw things at the wall distortions- ie Hackett is a flip flopper like Kerry on the war is the new meme. Hackett is DLC (the same arguements that Sirota makes against Hackett are what he makes against the DLC). 2 months ago no one knew this guys now- now according to Sirota he is the ultimate insider? And on and on- so when you say do I see it yes. Am I starting to see more of a reaction from the Hackett people- yes. Which is why I responded to this person. But it is a reaction. This got started when Jerome came on here- and didn't just announce his support for Brown, he did it by then putting down Hackett using some passivve agressive stuff there to as I remember.

I think this is personally okay- because the truth is it's just politics. People do this in politics. But, to then go I am shccked- just shocked the other side is either calling you on it or doing it gets a big blank stare from me. Normally, when I am reading these comments from people I am thinking what Mary Popkins reality are you inhabiting where people are simply going to take the attacks. Hackett's people aren't Kerry's people.  Sorry, to be so blunt, but it's late night and I just finished working so I am ramblin' but I think you get my point.

by bruh21 on Sat Oct 22, 2005 at 03:10:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You NEVER try to Intimidate a MARINE! (none / 0)

One final point- if you can't handle truth based criticisms of your candidate then you are going to just fall a part when June 2006 hits because the gloves will come off. I truly believe that people after the Dean Scream gave Kerry a free pass. That becuase he is not really a passionate man anymore- he used to be, that is what killed him. If Brown is going to be the nominee- he needs to be put through the ringer to test him. If Hackett is going to be the nominee- he needs to be put through the ringer to test him. This is the best thing that can come from a primary. If Nice for nice sake continues where no one discusses the other guys weakness- not just on policy- that's too easy for us Democrats, but also character and how to shore these issues up, then we are going to keep screwing ourselves.
by bruh21 on Sat Oct 22, 2005 at 03:16:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You NEVER try to Intimidate a MARINE! (3.00 / 0)

I appreciate the thoughtfulness of your response. However, I still did not see signal quote from brown, or anyone on his campaign saying anything negative about Hackett (Sirota is a supporter, but he is not a part of his campaign). If you could show some of the links to supposed passive aggressive things brown or anyone how works for him has said, I would like to see them.

And the claim that , first it was Brown, than it was his wife, said something bad at that candidates night a few weeks ago, that was reported on a all the blogs, does not count-one side says it happened, one side says it didn't. The guy from Ohio 2nd says he has an audio recording of a woman who was there saying that it happened, but that is no more convincing to me  then someone typing it. Until I have heard an audio recording of the comment, or Brown or one of his top people copping to it, I do not believe it. Just as I do not believe anything claimed abut Hackett unless it is in reputable publication, or recorded or whatever, and he does not dispute it

AS far as other things you have heard, they do not count either. A lot of rumors are floating around here, on both sides. I have heard some nasty things abut Hackett, maybe they are true, maybe they are not. If you notice, the only things I have posted are things that are established facts (he has almost no experience, -some say this a plus) or I posted links to comments that he or close advisors made that I think were in bad taste that were reported in Reputable publications, ta (the PD , Mother Jones) that as far as I know he has not disputed. If you can do something similar for Brown or a top advisor (the only blogers who count are Tigaris and Armstrong- and Ihave not seen them write anything negative on Hackett, maybe i missed it) than I would like to see it.

Also,  Yes obviously Brown should be able to, and I think can, take all these criticisms, The question is, is it the best thing for making the party stronger, and more likely to take back the seat. Some people think it is. I disagree.

And as far as supporters, as I said, yes, some brown supporters on the blogs have typed things they should not have, And the hole,who started it debate is pretty lame, but I do believe that more  Hackett supporters (not all) went more negative earlier:

I offer as proof. The charges made by Hackett supporters on these blogs:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/10/17/164639/76

Sherrod Brown is a "coward" and "a buffoon political opportunist."

"DeWine is bad enough, but at least the sick end of the GOP doesn't like him either. I want him gone, but not with a wimpy little "me me pay attention to me" Congressman."- clearly implying this Hackett supporters profers DeWine to Brown, and not exactly atacking him on the merits.

"Brown will take strong stands too, until the right lobbyist whispers in his ear." -Brown is apparently a sell out. I then responded that I would like to see one example of when brown had sold out in the 30 years of public service. no response to that.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/10/18/135130/28
"Sherrod brown is hiding, becuase he will not blog"- this one was just funny, but still

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/10/6/21936/2920

Title "I must confess-Ialready hate Sherrod Brown" (from October 5th)

http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2005/10/6/12495/7492/12#12

more Brown is a coward, from October 6th. You can disagree with the way he made his decision to run, but I think calling him a coward is over the top. There were also al,ot of "Fuck Brown"  "Brown is an an insider asshole" etc. This goes beyond "fact based criticism, to attack.

DO I believe that Hackett should be held responsible for this stuff ? (No, unless any of these people work for him, I have no idea if they do, Ii am not going to accuse them without proof. Bob Brigham might be another matter. he certainly identifies himself with Hackett, I do not even know how closely they are related). However, the new Hackkett supporter line is that the Brown people started it. I just do not think the evidence backs that up. If you can show me some I would like to see it.

by jschiffer3 on Sat Oct 22, 2005 at 11:32:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You NEVER try to Intimidate a MARINE! (none / 0)

You don't see because you don't want to see. It's classic passive agressive politics. It's what killed Kerry last year. People were ignoring Kerry's flaws in the primary, because they didn't want to see them because they were so ABB. Here, the same dynamic is going on. Some pretty clear passive agressive strong arming is happening on your side. I have pointed out the specific language, and, you still say you don't see it. No one on your side is probably ever going to say Hackett that bastard asshole. Although I have seen "petulant child" by commentators which does work in the meme that y'all are trying to build of Hackett, or Jerome calling Hackett a "hot head" or spreading misquotes about Hackett's postion (and the misquotes are designed to make Hackett appear more conservative and more DLC which is really design to divide and conquer- again classic political techniques). No you want ever see direct hits because that's not the style of campaign that Brown is running (or at least his surrugates are running).  To see all of that you would have to be willing to see it. When someone does something wrong, even on my side of a particular debate, I am able to call it.
by bruh21 on Sat Oct 22, 2005 at 02:28:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You NEVER try to Intimidate a MARINE! (none / 0)

I think you have been seriously overstating the degree to which you are willing to call pro-Hackett people on their, shall we say "missteps." You did say one person was over the top, you implied bo Birgham might got a little too far, and you said that Hackett is inexperienced, which could be a problem. I have not seen much else. Maybe you think those are the only things he or anyone else associated with him has done wrong.

I disagree, and I showed exactly what i was talking about above. I think the tone you took was superior to say the least, and that is a little odd, considering I provided several links to back up my point, and you did not provide any. If Jerome did call Hackett a "hot-head," maybe that went too far, but I am not sure. I think it is a charge to which he is vulnerable, especially considering the quotes i have already posted, by Hackett and by his closest advisors. however, to know if he went to far or not, I would have to see it in context. Or any of the other things you allege, in context. Links would be helpful here.

To say "You don't see because you do not want to see" is a little bit off base when you did not provide a single link. Maybe you and I will read things differently, and disagree. You support Hackett I support Brown. I submit that that probably makes us both biased (you seem to think you are being totally objective, I disagree), but I am trying to back up what I say with evidence. I would ask you to do the same, or short of that, stop accusing me of wilfully ignoring facts you have not presented.

by jschiffer3 on Sat Oct 22, 2005 at 03:05:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You NEVER try to Intimidate a MARINE! (none / 0)

Man, this isn't my life. I read these comments while working on my real work and I normally answer as quickly in between (which explains the ramblin'). I am not going to spend time trying to prove what you can read yourself just by going into threads (including this one where below they claim Hackett is pro Iraq war and flip flopping on it) and reading. As a preemptive point- no this doesn't mean they don't exist, it means you need to read the threads. And as for my tone- if you can find tone in an online blog then you are a better man (or woman- shouldn't assume) than I am. All I can do is base arguments on what people are actually saying and what are the logical extentions from them. For example, for  you to miss the comments or ignore the comments claiming Hackett is pro war or that he has flip flopped on the Iraqi War below, then that's seeing what you want to see.
by bruh21 on Sat Oct 22, 2005 at 04:08:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You NEVER try to Intimidate a MARINE! (none / 0)

this is not my life either, I just think that if I am going to make an argument, I should back it up. I try not to assume I know someone's mind from what they type. I never, for example have claimed that anyone is just "seeing what they want to see."

I saw the comments claiming the flip flop by Hackett on the war, so none by anyone with the Brown campaign (Sirota does not work for him). And as I said before,if we are going to hold candidates responsible for what their supporters say, Hackett has a heck fo a lot ot answer for.

I do not think we should hold either of them responsible for what random bloggers say. I do think they should be held responsible for what they or their staff's say. When I see an inappropriate comments by Brown or a staffer, I will certainly acknowledge it.

I have shown what I think are inappropriate comments by Hackett and his staffers. I'm not seeing them acknowledged. Fine, but don't claim that you are being so fair minded when you are not dealing with evidence directly presented to you.

by jschiffer3 on Sat Oct 22, 2005 at 05:10:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You NEVER try to Intimidate a MARINE! (none / 0)

What's to prevent manipulation, as Bingham, has said by anyone planning to play such a system as you described by attacking without having their fingerprints on them? If this were a Republican using surrougates doing this- what would be your response? This approach is called plausible deniability. My issue with your evidence is its selectivity because you ignroe those things that are directly attributable to what the candidate has said. And, we aren't talking low level political people here- we are talking people such as Jerome who runs this blog. You leave out the parts that don't fit your argument. I bring into mind the larger point of what is an attack- by saying plausible denial attacks are also attacks.  By your saying that bringing up the Iraq stuff is not an attack- you are excluding something that doesn't fit your argument. Jerome front paged Sirota's stuff. That's the definition of seeing what you want to see.

You say that when Jerome got online at his pretty famous blog (maybe online level of D Kos) that its not an attack because its online. Okay- fine. If you start leaving out sections of where people are engaging in attacks to see which one sticks then sure you are right because you have already selected out anything that potentially disagrees with you.

The other day I saw someone do something similar when it was pointed out at one of the local Ohio meetings, Brown's wife made some kind of comment that was very negative, and someone told that person "that didn't happen." When that person backed up what they said with I have witnesses who were there who also heard the same thing. They were once again told that didn't happen. It's classic passive agressive behavior. You get to attack indirectly and when directly attacked, you are shocked that peop are bashing you (you being the plural you, and not you specifcally).

When I said you are seeing what you want to see it is precisely this sort of well but I am only counting the incidents that I think prove my position. What was the genesis for example of the comments and things you exerpt or link to? Was there a history that preceeded these events or did Hackett and Co just sort of wake up one day and said all these things? The first time I heard anything disparaging was the rumor being started that Hackett argued and fought with Reid which coincided with the rumors that Brown "maybe" getting back into the race. A story that was later proven false, but it was put out there anyway, by as someone else here pointed out someone pretty high up, but since no one said it openly they had the plausible deniability. If your arguments aren't including these sorts of trial ballon attacks where the candidate and his staff can claim- I am not bringing it up, then you aren't engaging in a fair political debate about people's behaviors because trial ballons are pretty standard fair for politics.

by bruh21 on Sat Oct 22, 2005 at 06:24:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You NEVER try to Intimidate a MARINE! (none / 0)

The reason that people continued to deny Brown & his wife ever said anything negative about Hackett is simple:  IT DIDN'T HAPPEN!  

I was at the event.  My parents were at the event. Several other people I know were at the event.  Not one of them heard a damn thing from Brown or his wife about Hackett's military service.  Hell, Brown even said "He's a decent guy."  

by ratdg1 on Sat Oct 22, 2005 at 06:45:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You NEVER try to Intimidate a MARINE! (none / 0)

PS and it's hard for me to believe that all these statements are coincidental. Ie, hacket's a hot head, hackett argued with Reid, hacket's a petulant child are no random statements they are a common meme being developed and tested.
by bruh21 on Sat Oct 22, 2005 at 06:28:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You NEVER try to Intimidate a MARINE! (none / 0)

I had to read your responses several times to understand what you were referring to. At first I was thinking, "Bruh said I said a lot of things I did not say." I realized something though, I had a pretty bad typo in my post. This may have caused confusion:

" I saw the comments claiming the flip flop by Hackett on the war, so none by anyone with the Brown campaign (Sirota does not work for him)."

This is an incredibly confusing sentence, because that is not what I meant to write. What I meant to write was :

" I saw the comments claiming the flip flop by Hackett on the war, I saw  none by anyone with the Brown campaign (Sirota does not work for him)."

The way I wrote it could be taken to imply that I do not think that going after what Hackett said or did not say on the war was not an attack. That is not what I meant. I meant I saw the attack being made, but not by Brown or any of his people. Again, Sirota is a supporter, he is a more famous supporter than most, but still just a supporter. I apologize for my typo.

If this was the only source of your post, than I guess it was all on me, but I do not think it was. I have not seen Jerome write anything going after Hackett on the war. (I did see him saying the "son of a bitch" comment could be problem for Hackett. I do not see that as an attack, just as I do not see it as an attack when people say the way Brown entered the race will be a problem for him. Maybe you disagree)Maybe I am just being really dense and missing things, but if that is the case, I do not think it would be that hard to point out the posting. While I understand you are a very busy person, it took me about 12 minutes to find the links I posted before.

If I am ignoring things that do not prove my point, please show them to me.

I did see, that as you said "Jerome front paged Sirota's stuff."
 he also Front paged Ann Driscoll's rebuttals, and several posts attacking (or at least being critical of)Brown. Does that mean he is attacking Brown too? I think he is encouraging debate.

" You say that when Jerome got online at his pretty famous blog (maybe online level of D Kos) that its not an attack because its online. " I have a hard time understanding what the heck you are talking about here.

As far as the whole thing about what did or did not happen at the candidates night meeting, Brown supporters who were there say it didn't happen, Hackett supporters say it did. This seems too me like the definition of "he said she said." So treating it like it is fact either way does not seem warranted.

You also say or imply that several people who are not publicly acknowledges as working for Brown (apart form Armstrong and Tigaris, who are, or were part of his staff) are part of a co-ordinated campaign of leaks and plausibly deniable attacks. I cannot say that this is not true, since i am not on the inside of the BRown campaign. I am curious as to where you get your certainty from.

I have read (more than just with me) where you have been presented with facts, and you have acted as if other people's facts are inferior to your suppositions inferences and guesses. This puzzles me to say the least.

And you say the statements by Hackett need to be taken in context , fine. I would like to see the context. Guesses  or suppositions ("trial ballons are pretty standard fair for politics) are not good enough. You are accusing someone of something for which it does not appear you have proof. If I am wrong, and you do have proof, I would  love to see it.

 If you think he is doing it, but do not have proof, thats fine, but you have been stating it as fact.

by jschiffer3 on Sat Oct 22, 2005 at 10:17:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You NEVER try to Intimidate a MARINE! (none / 0)

Yeah okay man - you started with saying I was civil, and now I am an ass. Whatever sticks.
by bruh21 on Sat Oct 22, 2005 at 11:35:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You NEVER try to Intimidate a MARINE! (none / 0)

"trying to keep it civil" doesn't mean consistent or accurate.
by jschiffer3 on Sat Oct 22, 2005 at 11:38:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You NEVER try to Intimidate a MARINE! (none / 0)

Lawyers are consistent and accurate so long as you don't think too hard about them advocating for a particular client. First, I can't be both be "civil" and someone who is disparaging others people without cause. I am not going to get into defending what I say to other people.

Second, according to you- it's all Hacket. Nothing being done by Brown and his surrougates to justify it. Even if we both knew nothing about these candidates, this wouldn't sound credible.

Trial ballons are a pretty old technique, but your guy is above it. However, as you have said, the only way I can prove it to you- is to provide you with links. Otherwise, I guess I am making up the repeated statements like "Hackett started a fight with Reid" and that's why they re looking for another candidate. And, that this was "leaked" out around the time that the rumor mill started that Brown would be running. It was something that was put into the rumor mill by someone, but it was not any of Brown's people.  And, the only way that I can show you that it was a Brown person is to provide you with a link where someone says at the bottom- I am a Brown staffer, and I am linking this to help my candidate of choice.

by bruh21 on Sun Oct 23, 2005 at 12:43:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Repeating Ourselves (3.00 / 0)

Everyone, including me, has been repeating themselves. To be fair, I should say that in my case, and I think in the case of several of the Hackett Supporters, particularly you, Bruh, it is because we feel our points are not being addressed or listened to. That the other side is simply repeating incorrect thing about our guy, or ignoring the faults of their guy.

    For example, Bruh, from what you have said, you are upset that Brown supporters have not acknowledged that his changing his mind on the race suggests real weakness that indicates a lack of passion and lack of appetite for the campaign. Many Brown supporters, some civilly, some not, have addressed this, saying essentially that they (we) are not convinced that this truly matters. We have offered evidence of his passion, and you and some others have said "yes I know he has legislative passion, and I respect that" (many others have not acknowledged this and unleashed a stream of vitriol that I have not seen equalled by brown supporters, although there have been some things that some brown people have written that have been out of line) "but I am not convinced that that his legislative passion will equal campaign passion, and i do not think he can win." You (and many others) are not convinced by Brown's supporters arguments, but then are upset when Brown supporters are not convinced by your arguments.

    I also, have been repeating myself, but that is because I feel that the same incorrect statements have been repeated, sometimes by the same people. Among them are:

  1. Sherrod Brown's district is super liberal

  2. Sherrod Brown has no crossover appeal

  3. Sherrod Brown is just like Eric Fingerhut

  4. Sherrod Brown cannot win the general (the big one, obviously) especially outside North East Ohio

  5. Sherrod Brown is a typical establishment, passionless, buffoon, coward, asshole,cares about nothing (I know many Hackett supporters, including you Bruh, have acknowledged Brown has been a good guy in Congress, but many keep repeating the slander)

and now,

6) Hackett has stayed positive, Brown is negative

I have tried to rebut these and other points in several posts

http://mydd.com/comments/2005/10/19/91856/558/24#24

http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2005/10/20/17151/763/90#90

http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2005/10/18/202121/34/73#73

http://mydd.com/comments/2005/10/21/131214/44/131#131

Many of these posts are similar (except the last one). One of them was posted in response to a Hackett supporter requesting more information on Brown, but it is also because, as I said, people have been repeating what I feel are false assertions.

There has been very little response to these by Hackett supporters (you did thank me Bruh). Now this may sound like "woe is me," I don't mean it to. People don't want to respond, that's their business.  Other people have been making these points besides me, and for the most part have been ignored too. My only point is that while Hackett supporters feel that their points are beng ignored, it goes both ways.

by jschiffer3 on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 11:05:46 PM EST

Waffling and Flip Flopping (none / 0)

Is this what these two Democrats are going to make the race about?  Children, if you don't stop this right now I'm going to stop the car!

Hackett has a right to be pissed about Brown wrong footing him.  That's no suggestion that Brown is an opportunist or that he lacks character.  So why the attempt to Fast Boat Hackett as a flip-flopper?

It's a typical Republican modus: Attack your opponent's strength.  So attacks like this are what we'd expect Republicans to pull in the general election.  And it's good that Hackett gets to learn to respond to this kind of shit in the primary before facing it again in the general.  And if he can't effectively deal with this now, he doesn't deserve to get the nomination.

At the same time, Hackett should figure out what Rove would use on Brown, throw it up and see if it sticks.  It'll be interesting to see if Brown can handle it.  And if he can't, he probably doesn't deserve to get the nomination either.

Primaries are a chance for Democrats to try out their inner Republican on each other -- training for the real thing down the road.  Another reason it's good to have primaries among Democrats.

by kaleidescope on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 11:08:54 PM EST

A Little Snark (none / 0)

Does paleo, the diarist here, know what penultimate means?  I am not sure.
by James Earl on Sat Oct 22, 2005 at 12:42:10 AM EST

Smear (none / 0)

This has got to be one of the worst smears I have read of any candidate from someone who is supposedly on the same team. Disgraceful.

Brown and his campaign must be feeling very desperate to have to resort to this kind of shit before they have even publicly declared they are in the race.

by Pounder on Sat Oct 22, 2005 at 10:08:11 PM EST

Re: Smear (none / 0)

again, any proof that Sirota or Paleo are working for Brown?
by jschiffer3 on Sat Oct 22, 2005 at 10:18:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

About Hackett (none / 0)

As long as he is a pro-choice Dem I am all for Hackett, and he is pro-choice.
by mleflo2 on Sun Oct 23, 2005 at 01:57:11 PM EST

Read Mother Jones interview with Hackett (none / 0)

He talks openly about his feelings on Iraq.  So openly, in fact, that he admits that his perspective changes as he learns more week to week.

I don't see any "flip-flopping" going on.

mydd straw poll vote: 1. other (gore) 2. unsure 3. dodd 4. edwards 5. obama
by colorless green ideas on Mon Oct 24, 2005 at 01:24:45 PM EST


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