An Ohio senate candidate who changed his mind

Equal time, New poll too. From the diaries, jerome

No, it's not Sherrod Brown changing his mind about running.  It's Paul Hackett changing his mind about what to do in Iraq.  Yet, everyone talks about a change of heart when it comes to running, but no one talks about a change of heart when it comes to a real substantive issue.  Why is that?  Hypocrisy, perhaps?  

Once again, Sirota nails it:

"Ohio Senate candidate Paul Hackett once told the Washington Post that "we need more straight-talking, straight-shooting politicians." And he has dispatched his staffers to attack Congressman Sherrod Brown (D) for supposedly not talking straight about whether Brown was going to run for the Senate (the two now face a primary). But what is more troubling - a candidate that changed their mind about running for office, or a candidate who hasn't talked straight about their own position on Iraq?

That's right - in the fulminating over Hackett as the supposedly populist champion of anti-war sentiment, it seems many have forgotten that Hackett continues to change his position on the Iraq War whenever it appears politically opportune. For instance, on 7/19/05, the Cincinatti Enquirer reported that Hackett says "the Bush administration...must develop an exit strategy" from Iraq. Two days later, however, Hackett told the Associated Press he did not support ending the war. "We're there now," he said. "We can't cut and run." Then four days later Hackett spoke to the American Prospect. Appealing to that magazine's more progressive readership, Hackett said, "I disagreed with the war." Now, as a candidate for another office running in a primary, Hackett is supporting full withdrawal.

. . . .

Again, let's be clear - Hackett has every right to change his position, just as Brown had every right to decide to run. But the two examples of waffling are clearly not equal in terms of gravity. While some parts of the blogosphere would like to try to make a candidate's reversal of tactical decisions a penultimate sign of "trustworthiness" vs "untrustworthiness," the real penultimate sign of backbone, spine, "trustworthiness" and "straight shooting" is on the issues. One candidate, Hackett, has clearly wavered on those in his short time in politics. Another candidate, Brown, has never wavered on those, even though he has been in politics for a long time taking tough vote after tough vote. And no matter how much spin and hype surrounds this race, them's the facts, whether we like it or not. Hackett folks attacking Brown for his reversal on a tactical decisions are throwing stones from a very, very fragile glass house."



Display:


He was for the war... (1.00 / 2)

..before he was against the war.
by Buckaroo on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 01:45:24 PM EST

Re: He was for the war... (none / 0)

When in god's name was he for the war?

Hey, its not enough for Republicans to tear us down, let's do their dirty work for them!

by dantheman on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 02:55:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He was for the war... (none / 0)

He was a vocal critic of how the war was being prosecuted not of US involvement in Iraq.
by Buckaroo on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:00:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He was for the war... (none / 0)

Lie... he was against the war from the start and said so consistently throughout the campaign.
Editor
Ohio 2nd Blog
by ignatzmouse on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:04:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He was for the war... (none / 0)

I can't find a transcript of his TV commercial, but wasn't the line something like "I supported George Bush.."
by Buckaroo on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:18:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He was for the war... (none / 0)

No... it was the exact same thing that he said during the campaign, that he agreed with the President that there was no higher calling then serving your country in the military. Great ad BTW.
Editor
Ohio 2nd Blog
by ignatzmouse on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:21:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He was for the war... (none / 0)

Do you have a link?
by Buckaroo on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:25:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He was for the war... (none / 0)

http://www.dembloggers.com/story/2005/7/18/62411/9376
http://www.dembloggers.com/story/2005/7/28/152112/247
Editor
Ohio 2nd Blog
by ignatzmouse on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:31:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Are you frikkin Republican? (none / 0)

Listen to the damn ad!

GWB: "There is no higher calling than serving in the armed forces"

PH: "I agreed with that. That's why I served...."

Stop spreading your b.s!

by crazymoloch on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:38:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I should have been replying to.... (none / 0)

... Buckaroo!
by crazymoloch on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:40:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I should have been replying to.... (none / 0)

DAMN YOU! How dare you question my... umm.. ohhh nevermind.
Editor
Ohio 2nd Blog
by ignatzmouse on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:49:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He was for the war... (3.00 / 1)

From Hackett for Congress: http://hackettforcongress.com/index.php?page=display&id=69

"I was against the war. It was a misuse of our military that damaged our credibility throughout the world and squandered our political capital. Still, I volunteered to serve, and I have no regrets. But now we need to face the reality of the situation there. Our country has gone to war and every American must share in that responsibility."

There are a lot of lies floating around the internet about Hackett's positions. It's worht double checking before you belive what anyone writes.

by dantheman on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:06:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He was for the war... (none / 0)

He wan't against the war for the reasons you wanted him to be critical of it? Oh, yeah...that does make sense.

He's definitely a panderer.

by BlueCollarBaby on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:59:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hamlet Brown (3.00 / 1)

Dishing the slime, and being extremely transparent about it.

Hackett's looking better all the time.

Support Regina Thomas, GA-12
by Drew on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 02:05:16 PM EST

Hackett has a letter that talks about Iraq (3.00 / 1)

You can find it here:

http://www.actblue.com/list/PaulHackett

by blogswarm on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 02:16:03 PM EST

Re: Hackett has a letter that talks about Iraq (none / 0)

The letter says he supports "bringing the war in Iraq to a swift and secure resolution."

Does he support withdrawing the troops immediately?

by Buckaroo on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 02:34:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hackett has a letter that talks about Iraq (3.00 / 1)

What does that even mean?
Editor
Ohio 2nd Blog
by ignatzmouse on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 02:39:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hackett has a letter that talks about Iraq (none / 0)

My point exactly.  Does anyone support dragging the war out in Iraq for a slow and insecure resolution.

It is political double speak.

by Buckaroo on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 02:53:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hackett has a letter that talks about Iraq (3.00 / 1)

I'm talking about immediate. You're asking a question that makes no sense. You don't just click your heels and have the troops magically transported home.
Editor
Ohio 2nd Blog
by ignatzmouse on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:05:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The Stops (3.00 / 1)

Wow... Sirota's really pulled out all the stops. Does he think that this barrage is going to work? Why so hard so fast? I'm trying to figure out what the goal is.

Brown's got $2 mill in the bank. He's going to lock up most of the County party establishment...right??? He's got lots of love in the beltway... right??? Why slash and burn so soon?

Brown's a create Congressman and if he can get elected he's make a great Senator, but boy... he really sucks dockey A in his blogosphere diplomacy.

Here's a suggestion for the Congressman: Tell all of you waterboys to shut up until you officially announce. I can't believe that they are helping you any. First the leaks, then the night of a thousand on the dole blog stars, and now Sherman's March. Not good... not good at all.

Hackett was your friend. We were just getting over your going back on your word to him, and now you do this... amazing.

BTW, here's an idea for Sirota as well: why not actually talk to Hackett about the war... I've had the pleasure since the special election and it was really inspiring. It takes a lot of guts to admit to yourself that the thing that you risked your your life over and watched friends die over just just isn't going to be. I can't imagine what that must be like. Neither can you.

Editor
Ohio 2nd Blog
by ignatzmouse on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 02:16:47 PM EST

Contradictions? (3.00 / 3)

I'm unclear to me how the quotes included in the original post represent substantive shifts in Hackett's position.  He says he didn't agree with initiating the war.  Does that mean that he must necessarily advocate ending it immediately?  Certainly not- these are entirely different questions.  He says that Bush must outline an exit strategy.  Does that mean that the exit strategy entail full, immediate withdrawal?  Not as far as I can tell.  As a Senate candidate, he's running for a position that he wouldn't take until January 2007.  I don't believe that a claim like "I will vote for full withdrawal if American troops remain in active combat in January 2007" in any way contradicts "I don't think that we should pull out our troops in July 2005."
by Mason on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 02:23:27 PM EST

Re: Contradictions? (3.00 / 1)

Exactly.  I, too, opposed the war, and I'm also for a scheduled, timely withdrawal, with the end result being no troop presence in Iraq.  Hackett's saying the same thing.  This article is a real stretch.
by zenbowl on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:58:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Contradictions? (3.00 / 1)

It's not just a stretch, it's a hit piece.
Editor
Ohio 2nd Blog
by ignatzmouse on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 04:01:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Contradictions? (none / 0)

I like Paul Hacket but it is amazing how foks are finding ways to justify switches in communicating stratgey for him yet still attacking Brown for deciding to run after initially saying "not now."

by carsick on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 09:47:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I can't take this diary seriously (3.00 / 6)

Two totally different circumstances. In the case of one guy, you had someone who had a meteoric rise with his fight in OH2. No one thought he would go as far as he did. You supported him back then because of it.

If I am understanding the facts correctly- after the lost, people were telling him, Hackett, he maybe should run for Senate if others decide not to run (keyword if others decided not to run)- I remember the diaries on here about the same subject so I got to assume that it was broader than just here. When the political winds were lookign bad for Dems- a lot of good choices bowed out. I remember diaries by you and others here saying that they should run, but then they bowed out anyhow.  Then I remember diaries here saying he should run (again by Bower I think) He was trying to decide in a short amount of time what he wanted to do. The choice was between what he had always done (going back to Iraq) or taking a chance of another a new fight. After being courted by folks on the blog (including by Bowers) where he decided the best thing to do was to run for Senate based on that support. He had a short amount of time to make a decision, and he made one and has stuck with it. The difference is that Brown didn't have a short amount of time- he had a long one.

On the other hand, you have Brown someone being courted for a long time (years right?) who said no back when he thought he would lose. He gave a long list of reasons dealing with family, etc. All maybe valid, but ultimately suggesting that he wasn't ready for the political battle. Remember only a few months have passed- but now those reasons are no longer factors?  It stretches credulity to beleive this. But, it doesn't stretch it to imagine that in a short time someone can when in a period of upheaval come  to a change of mind. Then, with the shifting of the polls he decided to run because now he felt like he had a shot of winning.

Brown has every right to run. So does Hackett. But, the difference upon which they made their decisions does say something aobut each man's character.  One was acting as a call to duty- which spin or not, he has always taken. Another was acting as a call to the change in polling numbers. I beleive both from what I am reading are good guys. The fear of the Hackett people is that Brown's change of mind represents how he will run his general campaign. that he, brown, will try to run it safely. That we have a Kerry situation. Great on paper, but lackluster in an actual fight.  That if the political winds change again, he will not give it his all. In other words, that we have some tealeaves that read differently between what the two candidates will do. We know hackett appears to be a pitbull on the campaign trail- you have to answer will your guy be because it is not how he has been presenting himself thus far. Rather than trying to make fake comparision- demostrate how Brown is now willing to give his all. Say something credible rather than incredible.

I believe from what I've read that either will make a good Democratic Senator if given a chance. But b/s like this diary isn't necessary to help your guy win, and only reinforce the point that there must be fire to the smoke of whether this particular issue is a real one or not.

by bruh21 on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 02:23:38 PM EST

You hit it right on the head........ (none / 0)

.... Steve's right on the money too.

http://stevegilliard.blogspot.com/2005/10/not-so-fast-congressman-brown.html

I've go nothing more to add. He's go zero fight in him. Stay put Congressmen, this is a time for Democrats with guts.

by crazymoloch on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:27:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You hit it right on the head........ (none / 0)

I think he has guts legislatively- I just don't know if he is willing to fight enough to win a campaign that will get dirty in the general election. Lying and dirty is what the Republicans do. This is a crucial part of the discussion glossed over by his supporters because they think the environment is right for the Democrats to win no matter what. We clearly aren't talking policy here- if we were both men sound about the same on most issues. It's more about for them I suspect that Brown is a known vote. That's fine. My issue is with him as a campaigner. Thus far- with this campaign he has been lackluster in his approach.  If one of his supporters had once come out and said- you know you are right- this is an issue and we will do this going forward- then there is more to be respected in that. But, this manipulation is irritating. And his supporters have been insulting to anyone who has even remotely paid attention to these blogs over the last few months.
by bruh21 on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:34:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You hit it right on the head........ (none / 0)

"Lying and dirty is what the Republicans do."

Are you advocating this?

by Buckaroo on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:38:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You hit it right on the head........ (none / 0)

yeah man that's point
by bruh21 on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 04:37:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Garbage (none / 0)

Brown led the fight against CAFTA.  He's been fighting for the average worker against the big monied interests since he got to congress.  I can't tell whether a lot of you Hackett supporters are just unsophisticated or unknowledgeable.
by Paleo on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:37:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Garbage (none / 0)

Brown is a good politician. He's a good progressive too.

But he's wrong for Ohio. He's good for Northeast Ohio, he always has been.

Primaries are good because the candidates go before the entire state.

Misleading posts such as this are horrible for politics and they escalate tensions.

by BlueCollarBaby on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:45:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Garbage (3.00 / 1)

Attack attack attack. Did you read my post above or are you responding only to the most flameable posts. I don't question Browns record, I wonder about whether a) he's as talented a campainger as Hackett (which is a factor) b) I also don't think there is that much difference policy wise between the candidates (I think most of you are doing what I call the Miers approach- namely your problem with Hackett is that he's an unknown quantity whereas Brown is a known one) c) My issue with the discussion is that it's not reflecting the real choice. Brown speaks to the safe way to talk as a Democrat. He will run his campaign that way based on what I am reading here. You understand that so you want that. Hackett speaks in a non traditional way even if he's talking about the exact same issues and is in agreement with your conclusions on the issues. I think for some its hard to understand that form trumps substance. We are essentially arguing stylistic differences and which approach is more appealing. this is a question of which candidate will get through to people. Right now, I am believing it will be Hackett. Not only because of what he says- honestly I was shocked to read a pro lifer supporting Hackett even though Hackett is pro choice. Something Hackett said got through to this pro lifer- and I don't know what it is. But whatever he is saying - I would like to see what that is. Whereas the same effect doesn't seem to occur for Brown. The fact is he's been around a long time in Ohio right? Sometimes it's easier to hear things from a new comer who is saying it differently than to hear it from someone tried and true.

None of what I just said can be read as a flame of either candidate- but it does point out the strengths and weaknesses of either approach.

by bruh21 on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:50:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Garbage (none / 0)

I was responding to this:

"He's go zero fight in him. Stay put Congressmen, this is a time for Democrats with guts."

If that's not an attack, and a sleazy one at that, deserving of a response, I don't know what is.

by Paleo on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:55:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Oui..... (none / 0)

.... I apologize for that. There are a lot of good Democrats out there. I like Sherrod Brown a lot, really. I'm from northeast Ohio, worked on Kerry's campaign with a lot of his supporters. He's done a great job with trying to reform Ohio politics and re-build the state party. He's phenomenal.

His decision to re-enter the race only after DeWine's numbers (and the Republican party's numbers) went south tells me that he doesn't think he can win without a political backlash working against Republicans. Sherrod Brown would be a better vote than Hackett on every issue. But he can't win. A fear he confirmed by bowing out when the polling favored DeWine.

If doesn't think he can win, I'm going to go with someone who can. Maybe Paul Hackett will lose in a landslide. He's only been a candidate for one election, an election he lost. Maybe his warts will show.

But I saw him call Bush a chickenhawk on TV. He strongly defended his position on choice. He stepped up to run in a race everyone had given up on. That takes some kind of guts. People who fear losing tend to make lousy candidates. Paul Hackett didn't show any fear when he ran for office. Its why I voted for Dean. Its why I'll vote for Hackett.

by crazymoloch on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 04:12:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Garbage (none / 0)

Yes, it's an attack on his immediate actions. but, here's the thing that y'all keep avoiding- is it a factual one? You can discount in your own minds what lead up to this, but can you understand why it may concern others that we maybe getting another Kerry in Ohio? Let me explain- as I have said, I am out of state. I don't really much care if it is Brown or Hackett except that I want the Democrats to start to win to get this country back on track. I believe the Republican idealogy is deeply flawed and bankrupt. I believe that the Democrats are the only choice we have for changing things even remotely around, BUT first the Democrats have got to win.

I am commenting on two candidates- who from what I can tell are both mostly progressive. One has a great legislative record- again from what I have read. But, this isn't going to be about his legislative record alone. It's going to be about whether ot not he will fight. Now, going further into my thinking- this is where Brown in the most recent history comes up short.

You can say until you blue in the face that his changing his mind about running doesn't matter. It wouldn't if he had Hackett's context- but it does because in fact Brown had years to decide- not weeks or months.  It is a sign of his passion level that Hackett decided to run and Brown kept trying to figure out which way the winds were blowing.

There is a basic life maxim here that you want to ignore, but which is crucial to why this is not an attack or sleazy: People who really really want something do it no matter what gets in their way. Family, friends and the like are things you deal with- but you do it no  matter what. This is not the same as choosing a war- choosing a career is something different.

I don't know if you are in the process like I am of building a new career that will take a lot of personal risk for me. However, if you are then you know a large part of achieving a goal is the passion for it becuase there are a lot of days where things will be down. The problem that you as a brown supporter face is that Brown's earlier indecision raises real concerns about his passion for winning the job. You can't ignore this as a non issue just becuase it doesn't fit into your desire for him in the positon of Senator.

The result of ignoring it will be that even if we don't bring it up- when the Republicans start to attack it will come back to bite you i n the ass (a la the swiftboating of Kerry- which I even now believe was more about Kerry's lack of true passion as it was about the swiftboat idiots). I have yet to see how or why you feel that your candidate will do any better. I need to see it and my guess is that the Hackett supporters are looking for this as well.

When we talk about guys and fighting- we are talking about 2 types- a) that as a campaigner and b)that as a legislator. Brown being around for a long time may hinder the first, which means he will never get around to doing the second. Whereas I believe both men are about where i am politically, I just think one wants it more than the other. And, that's a  really big deal with it comes to life- and not just politics. I am basically repeating myself because I want you to think about it rather than regurgitate your intertia of repeating it doesn't matter.

And sleazy for the record is Bush saying that McCain had a black baby out of wedlock down in SC just to incite the white racist Republican vote. Sleazy isn't questioning a guys passion to win the office he says he wants to obtain.

by bruh21 on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 04:13:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Garbage (none / 0)

You make perfectly valid points.  I think almost all of them cut both ways.
by Buckaroo on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 04:19:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Garbage (none / 0)

Exactly, I am not pretending Hackett is perfect. His being newbie can be as much a strength, potentially, as a weakness, BUT I happen to think he's a better choice due to his impact for getting through to people whom we haven't been getting through to. And, he getting through saying the exact same things as pro choice, for example, people are trying to do- but he's saying it in a way somehow that people understand. This is a powerful motivator for me to support him to see if like say that Gov from Montana- maybe he's bringing a fresh way for people to understand democrats and progressives to the table.
by bruh21 on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 04:25:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Garbage (none / 0)

I don't see any evidence of his impact for getting through to people whom we haven't been getting through to.  Have you seen any analysis of his election results? I have not.

He is great at firing up the bloggers, but look at us - we are generally already pretty fired up.

by Buckaroo on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 04:30:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Garbage (none / 0)

Bush won the second Congressional district by a 64-36 margin. Hackett did 12 points better than Kerry. and 25 points better than any Democrat in two decades.
by crazymoloch on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 04:43:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Garbage (none / 0)

Several pieces of evidence:

a) the artcle cited by Jerome who is a big supporter of Brown- an article about Hackett. At least anecdotally- some of his supporters were true red meat republicans who were anti choice in the extreme and yet they said somehow hackett got through to them. This was simply fascinating to me. I have on a personal level been able to do that with these types of conservatives on a person by person basis, but if he can have that impact on a larger scale then I would like to test it more. For example, in terms of gay marriage, I have actually convinced a couple of evangelical moderate conservative friends of mine that it's a govt issue not one of their faith, and they say they wouldn't have a problem with civil unions. This taught me that people are reachable, but it depends on how you talk to them. Hackett seems to talk to people in a way that they respond to.

b) In a red blood section of the state he got 48 percent- again a clear sign no matter the turn out (since  only the most hard core turn out for special elections anyway- ie the normal right wing crazies) that his way of talking to people has some impact. People here like to say well but it wasn't such a large number- and I am thinking what better polling service do you need than that consdering only the hard core turn out for these sorts of things, and its the hard core we've been having hard time breaking through to.

c) 2006 is an off election year. You are thinking like a politico. The truth is the numbers will almost certainly be lower next year. Nor should you assume that polling numbers or turn out numbers are enough to win elections alone in a state that at least leans republican given the leaderhsip choices voters have made. We need someone who will fire up people. Brown maybe a great legislature but a win-lose ratio that didn't illustrate a stronger appeal for future races doesn't equal the same as a lose racial that would mean taking  chance but a better calculated risk with Hackett.

by bruh21 on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 04:45:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Garbage (none / 0)

a) anecdotally?  One example is just that one example.  If there was polling or something, I would be more easily convinced.  As it is, the absence of polling makes me wonder what really happened?  (Is that to conspiracy theory sounding?)

b)"since  only the most hard core turn out for special elections anyway- ie the normal right wing crazies"  To be fair only the normal left wing crazies as well and a large portion of the right wing crazies were encourage to stay home.

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050729/NEWS01/507290394/1056

c) I still think his style fires up the base much more than independents and soft republicans.  I don't think threatening to deck a voter at the polls plays well everywhere.

by Buckaroo on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 05:07:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Garbage (none / 0)

a) you don't even have that much for Brown- and that's sort of my point. He's had a lot of years to show that he can speak to people. And, he's partially suceeded in Democratic enclaves- but he hasn't shown that he can appeal. As for the conspiracy- i love the way that the people with the money (2 million) are sitting around acting as though they are the upstarts. who has the money to afford a poll? do you? if you do- commision one. I go with what evidence i have not with shit i need to make up to make someone i  like look good. i made that mistake with the last election- ignoring kerry's warts, and i promised myself never again will i ignore the flaws that are plain to see.

b) two number demolish your argue- 68/32. there is no hard core left in that district. it's moderate to right. the hardcore are the republican wingnuts- not the leftist. sometimes you have to think about what is said to you and whether or not using logic it makes sense. a republican district that is that republican doesn't change its stripes

c) this is speculation. i just know the records of both guys thus far- what they have said and done by both sides. hackett comes out on top in part because he's not acting like a traditional polician- this always wins over indies even if it's not a logical process. most indies i know are motivated by how they drawn to personalities. (also i know this because of readings but unlike you most of the stuff i read- i read for myself so i am not going to be able to pull any stats to back up what i have read). i can put out how the same indie who voted for clinton also voted for bush 2- this is suggests they aren't motivated by the partisan or idealogy divide- but instead by personality of the candidates.

by bruh21 on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 05:29:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You hit it right on the head........ (none / 0)

"He's go zero fight in him."

You know not of what you speak.
I'm glad you are enthusiastic but as Deans enthusiastic net support shows, votes are on the ground and in this case in Ohio.
Saying "What's you're fucking problem" won't win 51% of Ohio's votes.
I like Hackett and thinks he had/has a chance to win the 02 but now things are getting out of control with his campaign.  That's what inexperience can do.  Senate is hard ball where one slip can kill your chances.  Brown is a bonafide liberal who knows how not to shoot himself in the foot.

by carsick on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 10:02:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Flip-Flop Strategy (3.00 / 4)

I'd stand up and cheer if both candidates would stop trying to paint each other as flip-floppers. It just plays into the Republican strategy and is readily accepted by too many swing voters.

Slapping the flip-flop tar all over each other in the very first moments of their struggle will be ultimately self-defeating for both candidates if it continues too long.

Hard to wash that stuff off sometimes. Doesn't have to be true, just needs to stick.

by Curt Matlock on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 02:42:20 PM EST

yeah (3.00 / 1)

Yeah, this looks like it's going to turn in to a needlessly ugly primary fight. And the only one who benefits from that is Assclown DeWine.
by KevStar on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 02:44:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Unnecessary primary (3.00 / 1)

That's why Hackett should run in OH-2 and Brown for senate.  Let the more experienced candidate run for the higher office.  And it's not just Ohio.  I've said the same thing about Minnesota, where Amy Klobuchar and Patty Wetterling are both running.  Klobuchar should be the one for senate, while Wetterling should run again for the open seat in MN-6.  However, the Minnesota DFL party has a convention, where things can be sorted out.  It appears Ohio Dems could use on this year.
by Paleo on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 02:52:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unnecessary primary (none / 0)

They should both run for senate if they want.  Just stop this stupid argument over who is entitled and talk about the issues.
by Buckaroo on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 02:55:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unnecessary primary (3.00 / 1)

How about doing what's best for the party?  Another example of how the Democrats lack the teamwork and discipline the Republicans have shown the last decade or so.  Having Strickland and Brown at the top of the ticket, with strong House challengers like Hackett, and Joe Sulzer in Ney's district, can only help the entire Ohio ticket from top to bottom.
by Paleo on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:00:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

doing what's best for the party (none / 0)

Sounds good, but Sherrod isn't doing that.  

At a time when we are supposed to be trying to add seats, Sherrod will be giving up his more secured seat in the House, to challenge someone who has already galvanized the grassroots support and knows he can attract the inde's and yes, even Republican voters who really do like values of fiscal responsibility, personal freedoms and rights.  Where poll numbers already showed Paul Hackett would win a DeWine matchup of 46/34. Rep Brown never got those kind of numbers.

by LindainCincinnati on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:21:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: doing what's best for the party (none / 0)

That's a bogus Zogby internet poll that was totally unreliable last year.  Doesn't mean a thing.  Everyone knew this was Brown's race for the ask.  At first he declined, but reconsidered.  Hackett only decided right before Brown reconsidered.  It was not like he had spent months and months fundraising and putting a campaign together.  Now, instead of making another run at OH-2, he's acting like a petulant child instead of a loyal Democrat.
by Paleo on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:28:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

rofl (none / 0)

Hackett only decided right before Brown reconsidered.

That's some sweet doublespeak. I might have to borrow some of that later.

by rusty on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 04:28:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: doing what's best for the party (none / 0)

he decided to run after brown decided not run and people went lookign around for a candidate including on this blog- by people like Chris Bowers who until recently supported the idea of a hackett run.
by bruh21 on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 04:36:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: doing what's best for the party (none / 0)

I will ask again, how does Hackett deciding to run when he thought he would be unopposed show he has fight?
by Buckaroo on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 04:41:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: doing what's best for the party (none / 0)

i will answr it this way. it wasn't about him being unopposed. you are tacking that on yourself. and you and others along with the other frames that include a) you are "bashing brown"
b) you are using republican's job for him
c) hackett is conservative (the brown is progressive argument is really a claim about hackett- because i have seen the debate when people point out that hackett is also progressive the response is that he is not) and d) the manipulation of phrases. that later point works if i were some ignorant voter out there not paying attention for the last several months- but please peddle it on someone else. the context here are important. the reason why he waited was out of respect for your guy- you know the thing you keep claiming that hackett doesn't have. the passion part comes through a) his race in oh2 and b) his own words which he has been willing to post over at d kos and other places online if you bothered to read them c) the fact that he is plain spoken (i know, i know- after bush being straight forward is a big sin because all straight forward people must be like bush or the DLC) d) the fact that he has been unambigious since he finally made his decision- no saying- i am going to run, then saying i am not going to run, followed up by i am going to run.

let's compare this to brown- who according to his own supporters has been raising money for a while for his run (a few years right), been building an organization, and then decides because he wasn't sure he could win not to run (the numbers someone gives here i believe shows when his finger got in the wind on this one- ie when bush and dewine numbers went into red danger rather than yellow allert territory- in other words when as a campainger- brown knew that it was a sure thing- or at least that's what yall think).  then he announces that he may run through surrogates to check out interest- and those surrogates have almost immedidately been doing a lot of double speak.

let me be clear- i dont mind any of this other than the whole insulting part where y'all pretend up is not down, and black is not white.

by bruh21 on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 04:58:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: doing what's best for the party (none / 0)

I think I have positions, feeling, ideas, and opinions.  Frames imply I am packaging something to make it look like something else.  I have tried to be honest in my comments.  If we honestly disagree so be it.
by Buckaroo on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 05:19:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: doing what's best for the party (none / 0)

your opinions dont come across as honest disagreement, they come across as repetition of talking points. i dont know if that's because you legitimately feel them or because you are repeating whatyou have heard, but they still feel like talking points. no one can claim that with me- i point out the weakness of my guy as much as i point out the strengths. what are brown's weaknesses? can you admit that he has any?
by bruh21 on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 05:33:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: doing what's best for the party (none / 0)

If I repeat myself maybe it is because I am consistent in my position.  I am not trying to be argumentative.

Time for dinner.  Talk with you later.

by Buckaroo on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 05:48:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: doing what's best for the party (none / 0)

you are being consistent in your inability to see your candidates weaknesses- which by the way scares me more. if you unable to realize your candidates weakness- then you will be unable to adapt and that means we lose again. one of the bigger flaws of the democrats is not just an inability to fight- it's to know how to address risk and adpating to changed circumstances. where in any of your post have you amdited a weakness and provided how  your candidate will overcome the short coming people are concerned aobut. for get hackett for a minute, answer the questions being asked of you rather than lazily saying you support your candidate. now is not the time to get behind anyone like you are getting behind brown. it's the same reason that while i am biased toward hackett i can see him and his strengths and weaknesses and realize that primary that does nt address these issues will putwho ever is running at a diservice when the republicans attack because unlike us- they won't give a fuck about the truth.
by bruh21 on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 06:45:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: doing what's best for the party (none / 0)

I don't see it the same way you do.  I see Brown as a strong traditional progressive.  I mostly agree with his positions.  What I have read from him is articulate and well argued.  I have never met anyone who knows him who does not have great things to say about him.  He has been fighting the good fight consistently and effectively for years.  You keep asking me to address his weaknesses.  I have not found one that Hackett does not share.  Is he perfect? - No, but he is as close as it gets right now.
by Buckaroo on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 07:31:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: doing what's best for the party (none / 0)

My issue with you is that line at the end "that hackett shares." First off they are two very different men- the notion that all Browns weakness is the same as Hackett's is where you lose credibility. Hackett has his own strenghts and weaknesses and you just come across as sychophant with those kinds of responses back.  It's an old political saw horse to pretend that the other guy is just as worse. It allows folks like you to vote without thinking to hard about it. It's what my conservative friends did last year to justify voting for Bush. Brown isn't Bush- but you thinking process is the same as his voters. That's fine, but you need to realize you aren't fooling anyone with that kind of rhectoric. What ends up happening is what you find here- mostly a lot of people who can't quite point there finger on it, but they know something is wrong.

If this is Brown style in the election, it will mean trouble for him because voters will pick up on it. In Ohio - the presumption is against Democrats, not for them. I am not from Ohio, but I did grow up a in a conservative state, and it's like liberal ones- except the presumptiosn are reversed. People won't be giving the Democrats the benefit of the doubt, just because they don't know if they like their Republican choices or not. So your argument has got to be  a damn lot stronger than I like the guy because you aren't the only voter in Ohio. I backed up my shit with recent events- I have yet to see any of you do that for Brown.

Let me tell you what I see as an outsider as succintly as possible. We have two strong progressive candidates- so the issue before everyone is which stylstic choice does one prefer. You base your preference solely on what you feel about Brown, and from there attack anyone who you feel threatens that position. That is essentially what you have done in a nutshell. Anytime someone brings up a new question - your response has been- but they are the same on that issue. My response is- sure that's true if your bias blinds you to context and circumstances. Brown is running the classic insiders race ("I am the true progressive, let's have a civil debate (translation don't rock the horse to my coranation), claims about money and organization, etc. He's depending on that kind of approach to win the primary just as much as Kerry depended on it against his opponents in last years primary. That's fine because that's poltics. Hackett is running the classic outsiders race, populism, speak to the people, speak plainly, etc. He's depending on that approach. Each one seems to fit the guys strengths and weaknesses. It means that the former, Brown, will almost certainly have to run a more cautious campaign than the upstart Hackett. Again, politics 101.  Each probably fits each mans style (but this is just a guess from what I am seeing thus far). However, what I do know is that there is no way based on the approaches they are taking that these two mens weaknesses and strengths are going to be the same just on a logical campaigning style level.

Let me tell you what else is telling of who you are- versus your claim independent thinking. The line at end about "close" to being perfect. If you believe that then of course nothing will ever penetrate some pretty important questions that your side needs to be shoring up. It the classic Bushism of the emperor has no close, but I like him so he's perfect. When it comes to the Republicans- they won't ask "does this guy have any passion" They will simply take a look at what he has done, and attack him relentlessly in the areas in which they think he is weak by using lies and half truths and whatever other shit can stick. The purpose of a primary is to figure out which of the actual weaknesses and strengths in combination makes for a better candidate. By your own thinking you aren't engaged in this debate- instead you are interested in a coranation (afterall he's almost perfect to you so no questions need be asked and if they are then they are "bashing" this perfect guy). I am hoping that the rest of the Ohio Democratic base is asking hard questions about which of these guys will produce a win based on both issues and character. I am not a voter, but I beleive that guy is Hackett- but there is no way in hell you will ever hear me say that he's perfect, or damn near close it.

by bruh21 on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 08:41:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: doing what's best for the party (none / 0)

PS

One of the reason I support Hackett is that next  year will require some risk taking by the Democrats. Brown is showing from his supporters that he won't take those risks. I am hoping  I am wrong, but it's out there in people's mind. You can say until you are blue in the face that the fact he changed his mind after years of consideration is the same as Hackett taking less than a couple of months to decide are the same- but people aren't as stupid as you want to make us out to be. I know he did it because he, Brown, was acting cautiously. To win in a Republican dominated state- I suspect requires the kind of forth right talking style that Hackett creates. Thats why I respect his approach for this race more than Brown because if they agree on most issues, it comes down to who I think will win the race in the long stretch to Nov 2006

by bruh21 on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 08:47:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: doing what's best for the party (none / 0)

incidentally- the nice thing about the net is that one gets to read everything else that someone else has said- i've read your comments not just here but else where- so i know coming into our conversation that you aren't coming across as a guy just interested in a discussion. i am biased, and i neveer pretend i am not, but i also am about trying to figure things out which means admitting where my candidates weaknesses are. for example, you have a tendency to do double speak. someone along this thread will point out a brown weakness- you will then respond by saying its not a weakness- and anyhow hackett has the same weakness. the resutl is you never explain or give evidence that brown's weakness is a problem or how brown has shown as a candidate that he can result them.
by bruh21 on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 05:43:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: doing what's best for the party (none / 0)

Sorry if I gave the impression I am not biased.  Of coarse I am.  I favor Brown over Hackett hands down.
by Buckaroo on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 05:49:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: doing what's best for the party (none / 0)

if this is all you got from my post, it's this kind of selective reading of a post that makes me think you aren't a thinker- just someone regurgitating position. it's what make people question the sincertiy and honesty that you profess to be talking with. instead it comes across as someone who is being crass- despite his supporters on these blogs, i am hoping brown the man is not like this or else we will lose in the general election.
by bruh21 on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 06:40:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm calling bullshit on this comment (none / 0)

You're comment is pretty far out of line.  Just because someone doesn't let you control the debate doesn't mean that they "aren't a thinker" and it's wrong of you to suggest otherwise.  

Why should we be getting so angry at one another?  95% of the people on this site basically agree about most political issues.  

I have a close friend who proudly voted for Bush, twice.  When he explained why, my head almost exploded in frustration.  But you know what?  Each of us is entitled to sort these type of things out for ourselves.    

We are not given a vote conditioned upon our wise and benevolent use of it. Democracy is rooted in respect for the autonomy and dignity of each person as a rational and moral agent agent.  And part of that means that we must respect the decisions of others even when they are made for what seem like the most foolish or capricious reasons.  You are free to think that someone is an idiot for supporting candidate X, Y, or Z.  But you ought not to try to brow-beat them into submission to your point of view.  

So to recap:

  • Thinking someone is an idiot: Fine.  Go for it tiger.

  • Treating someone like he is an idiot: It's a grey area.

  • Calling someone an idiot:Bad juju

I have no horse in this race and you're welcome to check my comments on the matter to verify this.  So please understand I'm only commenting as a member of this community.

Visit my blog Say No to Pombo
by Matt Lockshin on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 08:21:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm calling bullshit on this comment (none / 0)

It's not control of the debate that's the issue. It's the fact that he won't even admit his candidate has weaknesses. If by respectful you mean accepting his lack of critical thinking about what he just said- then yes guilty as charged. Read what else he says above about his candidate "not being perfect, but damn near being as close as anyone can be." Does that phrase sound like someone who being a critical thinker? Or what about the part where he says these men are exactly the same on their weaknesses- does that sound like someone being critical? Do Brown and Hackett seem like the same kind of men to you? Disagreement is fine- but it has at least got to be in the realm of honesty or else it just me trying to make nice to keep the peace.

I also have friends from a wide spectrum. I am a gay black moderate with straight white evangelical conservative friends and on the other divide liberal athiest friends. So telling me I am not respectful of other opinions is just simply not true.

Finally, stop trying to get in my head. Meaning, you don't know what I am thinking or feeling- all you can determine is what I have written. All this stuff about me being angry is simply you trying to get into how I feel. You don't and won't know that. What I think, if you read what I said, is that these two guys are very similar politically- we are discussing which stylistic approach will win the general election and which stylistically is the direction the party should go in. to have a real discussion of that- you first have to have someoen who is not saying their candidate is near perfect.

by bruh21 on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 08:59:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm calling bullshit on this comment (none / 0)

I did read what you had written, and it came across to me as angry in tone.  I am an otherwise neutral observer, so take it for what it's worth.    

Furthermore, I did not say that you are not respectful of other opinions, I said you were not being respectful of other opinions.

I don't know you, as you so rightly pointed out, and was not making a claim about your character traits or dispositions.  All I was commenting on was the lack of respect I saw in certain specific comments.  Again, take it for what it's worth.  

Visit my blog Say No to Pombo
by Matt Lockshin on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 10:54:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm calling bullshit on this comment (none / 0)

That's the second time you said you are neutral. The fact you said it twice means you are really, really are not neutral. It's not worth much considering you are zero'ing the tenor of the comments of the guy you are defending. Below in response to why someone thinks Brown may lose, he responses simply with a one line zinger "Hackett is a loser." This is the thinking you are defending as entitled to respect. Which by the way, I am not exactly sure how telling someone that they aren't thinking is not respectful of them? Are negative characteristics which happen to be true unfair? Are we always suppose to tell each other you are doing good by thinking that when in fact I believe that he is not? What's the more honest debate- the one you want to police and create or the one we are having? Were your friends who voted for Bush really thinking about his record? And if you can't say so- what  kind of friendship do you have with them? Rather than coming online to project all this stuff on to me why don't you try to be a little less passive agressive and consider your own stuff. By the way, just be to be clear, I am offering you a suggestion to help you out, and it's not because I am angry (but then I must be because I am disagreeing honestly with someone and telling them that I don't agree withthe way they are thinking.)
by bruh21 on Sat Oct 22, 2005 at 02:54:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unnecessary primary (none / 0)

I agree with you, Buckaroo, as opposed to the smoke filled room scenarios
by KevStar on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 05:29:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unnecessary primary (none / 0)

this is one of those silly points- who is in the main arguing that both men shouldn't run? the questions raised are about the nature of both mena and what weaknesses and strengths they bring to the table- and what those will be in the general. i love the flip of language though. questioning brown is saying he shouldnt run. asking questions about brown is bashing him. saying anything negative about brown is playing into the republicans hand. so essentially you leave your opponent unable to say or do anything other than annoint your guy with a quiet but ultimately not very fruitful primary.
by bruh21 on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 05:36:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unnecessary primary (none / 0)

I mean more about the tenor of those here. I figure either one of the guys running is an adult and can handle whatever flies. It's some of those tearing their garments here that have me thinking maybe some of the sturm and drang is maybe misplaced.
by KevStar on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 07:48:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unnecessary primary (none / 0)

it's just an online debate- so what's the problem with vigorous discussion. our impact is nil unless someone happens as an off chance to read them. the point of me being here is to crystalize in my mind what i think and find what other people are saying. i also want to change the minds of the few people who happen to be listening or have them change my mind. which has happened here when discussing things. also i am trying to get a sense of where things are going in the rest of the country.
by bruh21 on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 09:03:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unnecessary primary (none / 0)

Since when was the blogosphere about supporting beltway insiders over exciting new candidates who are forces for change?

Sherrod Brown has been in Washington since 1990, during which time the party has lost control of the House, the Senate and the White House.

Is this Sherrod Brown's fault? No, of course not. But I'd hardly count 16 years of experience in this environment (after losing his last statewide election) as a plus.

by dantheman on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:00:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unnecessary primary (none / 0)

Brown was elected in 1992.  Since being there he has fought the big money DLC-minded leadership that has cost us in election after election.
by Paleo on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:11:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Good for him......... (none / 0)

He's also from a safe district. Paul Hackett has more experience than Brown when it comes to running in competetive races. Its a lost easier to stand for Democratic ideals when you know you can't lose your seat. Paul hackett stood his crowd in wingnut country, no small feat!

If Brown is basing his judgement on DeWine's poll number, I don't want him to run. It just just shows me that he can't take the heat. 2006 isn't for cowards.

by crazymoloch on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:35:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"More experience" (none / 0)

WTF?!  Brown ran three times for Secretary of State, winning twice.  All competitive races.  Hackett has what, two months, of experience in running a competitive race.  
by Paleo on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:40:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "More experience" (none / 0)

Since you're such fan of Brown, would care to explain why he took so long to commit to the race? Do you honestly think he has the fire to run a competetive race?
by crazymoloch on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:43:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "More experience" (none / 0)

  1.  Who cares.

  2.  Yes.

by Paleo on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:44:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "More experience" (none / 0)

You should care about a candidates passion for running for a position. When times get tough it will be the thing that gets him over the hill or causes his campaign to crash and burn. What are your recent in history reasons for thinking Brown has the passion other than the changing polls? I ask this because citing older races is useless for this sort of question- passion is an immediate feeling, and not someting one can draw on from the distant past
by bruh21 on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:55:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Passion (none / 0)

He just recently was the bi-partisan leader in the fight against CAFTA.  If you saw his speeches or special orders, you would have seen someone with passion.
by Paleo on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:58:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Passion (none / 0)

again- the hard thing you seem to be getting over the hill of paleo- is that my comments aren't about brown the legislator. It's about that part of him that will be seen on the campaign trial (that's what it is). the very fact he said- i can't do it for family- even if it is true, means that he is less passion than hackett at the moment because he said he couldn't do it. in business, where i used to work people who were equally qualified often lost out on jobs because they said other things were more important to them than the job. i understand their reasoning- and i agree with it. but at the end of the day- when choosing a candidate - i go for someoen who hasn't given me a reason to question whether they really want the job.
by bruh21 on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 04:21:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Passion (none / 0)

If Hackett got in after he had assurances that Brown wasn't running, where is the fight in that?
by Buckaroo on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 04:25:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Passion (none / 0)

It's called respect and loyalty. I know in this day and age those are bizzare concepts. When they said they weren't running, he has been unambigious. Brown has no such context, which is the important part for anyone looking at this.
by bruh21 on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 04:29:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Passion (none / 0)

For your point to be vaild (which I am not rulin out), Paul Hackett would have to an enormous asshole  AND a coward. Why an normous asshole? After all the help Brown gave HAckett in the OH-2 and then to turn  around and challenge Brown in a primary Hackett knew Brown had an interest in would be a pure asshole/Henry Cuellar move.
by crazymoloch on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 04:30:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Passion (none / 0)

No judgement here, but maybe he is.  Who knows?
by Buckaroo on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 04:32:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Passion (none / 0)

and now we cross over into pure speculation. Maybe the sun will careen into the earth tommorrow- right now all we got are what we know of the candidates from the public record.
by bruh21 on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 04:34:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Passion (none / 0)

I am all for discussing public records.
by Buckaroo on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 04:36:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Passion (none / 0)

okay thanks for that. i really really appreciate it. really i do.
by bruh21 on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 04:48:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Word of advice (3.00 / 1)

They want you to engage them in this phony, sophmoric war by making the issue about who got in and when.  That way they can divert from the real issues, and the fact that other than Iraq and gun control, Hackett is a total blank slate.  He makes Harriet Miers look like Oliver Wendell Holmes.
by Paleo on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 06:11:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "More experience" (none / 0)

Who cares? Brown waits for the political winds to blow his way. Hackett doesn't give a fuck about the political winds. He makes his own  wind. That's the difference.

A Senate seat is powerful platform. What the Democratic party needs more than anything right now are candidate who can use their platform to trumpet Democratic values. Brown himself doesn't think he can win without the political currents going his way. What happens when the political tides turn against Democrats in the future? Why should Brown think he could win then?

Brown might beat DeWine in 2006. As his waffling has demonstrated, if 2012 is bad year Democrats has zero chance of retaining his seat. Hackett can stand on his own. Brown can't.

by crazymoloch on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:55:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Please (none / 0)

What political wind?  Coingate was around for months when Brown intially declined to run.  That has more impact in Ohio than any dip in Bush's poll numbers, which have been dipping all year.  I don't know why he changed his mind.  Family reasons could have played a part, and the possiblity of a house leadership position could have been a factor as well.  I think this is something Brown should explain, perhaps at his official announcement.  But it is not the big deal a lot of folks are making it out to be.  Enough already!
by Paleo on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 04:02:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Please (none / 0)

It is a big deal, unless he explains it.
by crazymoloch on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 04:13:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Please (none / 0)

Dewine's June numbers
Approve 45%     Disapprove 37% (SUSA)

Bush's June numbers:
Approve 48     Disapprove 47 (CNN)
Approve 48      Disapprove 43 (FOX)
Approve 47      Disapprove 47 (NBC)

Dewine's August numbers (I'd bet they're worse now)
Approve 42%     Disapprove  43%

Bush is in the toilet now.

by crazymoloch on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 04:21:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Please (none / 0)

the point is that his mind had to be changed and that you should care about the reasons why. above i believe it was you who mentioned hackett changed his mind due to respect for other members of his party running- so apparently it is important to you as an issue. the question here is what are context of brown deciding not to run, and then deciding to run, and whether those factors should shape what we think of him as a candidate. and as for the numbers- there weren't any local numbers that were doing as i understand it a match up until fairly recently.
by bruh21 on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 04:32:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unnecessary primary (none / 0)

Clearly experienced politicians do a better job at winning elections.
by crazymoloch on Fri Oct 21, 2005 at 03:28:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unnecessary primary (none / 0)

Not true at all or else, on a common sense level, you would never have newcomers beat incumbents. The power of incumbency, of the pulpit, as Bush wil