'08 primary and caucus schedule for Democrats to change

Democrats will add contests alongside Iowa and New Hampshire for the 2008 nomination:
WASHINGTON - Democrats trying to change their party's presidential primary for 2008 agreed Saturday to allow at least two other states to join Iowa and New Hampshire in voting during the opening days of the nominating campaign... The additional states, expected to be named later, were likely to include a smaller state from the South and a smaller state from the Southwest or West.
From the beginning, the commission has been more interested in lengthening the campaign than replacing the Iowa caucuses as the lead-off caucus state and New Hampshire as the leadoff primary state--though the former instead of the latter seems more assurred.

So I'd bet that the states that will be added in between, and if I had to guess, I'd go with New Mexico and Nevada as being the two states leading for the southwestern slot, and South Carolina and Alabama for the southern slot. Though remember, Alabama has proposed to move their primary to the Saturday following Tuesday's New Hampshire primary. Sounds like, even more than '04, it's going to be more frontloaded than ever in '08.



Display:


From my friends in NH (none / 0)

I have a number of very active friends in NH - they claim the NH primary was saved the moment Dean won the DNC chair.

Of course, the more front loaded the system, the more Iowa and NH matter. Why the rest of the States don't understand this is beyond me.

In general, this cannot be good news for Hillary.  Neither the Iowa caucuses nor the NH primary really are set-up well for her.  The Iowa caucuses are more liberal than most of the other events in primary season, and Hillary is polling around 30% in NH - a bad sign for the front runner.  At some point I will write a diary about polling at this point in NH - contrary to what most think - they are actually pretty good at predicting when the front runner is vulnerable.

by fladem on Sat Oct 01, 2005 at 05:46:14 PM EST

Re: From my friends in NH (3.00 / 1)

Well, when New Hamshire plays a huge role in determining the nominee, if they start turning from the front-runner, by defenition they are vulnerable. The last two Presidents of the United States (both of whom are two-termers) lost New Hampshire when they first ran. Kerry and Gore won the New Hampshire primary, but they lost. Same with Dukakis. The types of candidates who tend to win New Hampshire are the kinds who tend to lose in the general election. And Iowa? Don't get me started on them. They voted for Kerry before they voted against him. They basically made him our nominee and then voted against him in the general election. We need a more representative state or states leading off the primaries.
by dole4pineapple on Sat Oct 01, 2005 at 09:49:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: From my friends in NH (none / 0)

I think we should all be able to understand what Kerry is saying .. if you can take a person, who is serious and trying to say something about 10 thousand page, cram packed with slimy pork - war bill that includes a line item for body armour and three line items to line the pockets of sleazy wealthy campaign contributors...

folks, kerry still has a message for you: wake up. lets get real.

Dean won't change anything, he'll run it just like
McAuliffe. But the voters can change everything.

by turnerbroadcasting on Sun Oct 02, 2005 at 04:58:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Objective criteria (3.00 / 1)

I think many people are in agreement that having Iowa and New Hampshire as the "first up" states isn't rational, given how unrepresentative they are.

If you want to give underdogs a chance, the following criteria should apply:

  1.  Small states.  States where you don't need a large organization going in and that are small enough that you can win using "retail" politics.

  2.  States with inexpensive media markets.  Otherwise, early front runners with the cash have a huge advantage.

  3.  States that are diverse, both with respect to race/ethnicity and urban/small town/rural.

My picks for Western states would be Colorado, New Mexico, or Nevada, in that order.

My picks for southern states would Arkansas by quite a margin, Tennessee, North Carolina.
My specific objection to South Carolina is that as a state it skews extremely Republican.

by InigoMontoya on Sat Oct 01, 2005 at 05:56:09 PM EST

Re: Objective criteria (none / 0)

Yeah, plus the Democratic voters there are more liberal than the rest of the electorate. We aren't going to win South Carolina for a long time.
by dole4pineapple on Sun Oct 02, 2005 at 02:20:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Objective criteria (none / 0)

The purpose of a front load is to keep the insurgents out of the process. The move here is a move to consolidate power, they are saying with this vote that they are confident in holding their own with their mainstream (read: hillary) candidates.

They did this after Carter won, they wanted to keep out anyone who could surge on their own power. The democratic party is making a fatal mistake: they are weaker than they think. Just because the GOP are slime doesn't mean they are easily going to waltz in and take over, I promise you.

by turnerbroadcasting on Sun Oct 02, 2005 at 09:57:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Long vs Short Primary Season (3.00 / 1)

The front loaded system benefits the IA/NH winner, but everyone else loses.

The longer the primary season, the more Free and UNFILTERED Media our team gets.

There should be two weeks between IA and NH, and two weeks before the next contests. John Kerry ran the table because of the front loaded process, and he was the worse for it. If he had won after a longer process, he would have been forced to develop a real message that would resonate with a diverse group of voters. As it was, he rode the electability pony to the nomination, and never bothered to craft a viable general election strategy.

Stretch out the Primary Season -- and we ALL win.

by ck on Sun Oct 02, 2005 at 01:19:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Long vs Short Primary Season (none / 0)

The danger is not that primary contest follow Iowa or New Hampshire quickly, it's that they all quickly flood the place with votes in things like Super Tuesday. What the DNC needs to do is carefully pace out the various primaries and caucuses and make sure that there's not too much regionalism. In other words, putting a Western state and Southern state in the Iowa and NH mix is a good thing.

But avoid states where big TV markets dominate at first because candidates with a lot of money immediately become the favorite there. Or (gasp) actually limit the amount of money candidates can spend on advertising but not other campaign expenditures like events, travel, etc.

In any case, there's no coincidence that the only two successful Democrats to win the Presidency after Nixon implemented the Southern Strategy were Carter and Clinton. Both men enjoyed crazy, elongated primary seasons against an incumbent who didn't take them as seriously. Hopefully the Democrats will win again for a reason other than this...but it bears keeping in mind.

by risenmessiah on Mon Oct 03, 2005 at 05:07:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

hmmm (none / 0)

Should the southern state be a bit more moderate one?? Maybe AR, MO, or VA(where Kerry got at least 45 in each state). Or one like SC or MS, where Dems can make in-roads?
by jj32 on Sat Oct 01, 2005 at 06:13:55 PM EST

Re: hmmm (none / 0)

We shouldn't bother with Mississippi. We're not going to carry it. Virginia and North Carolina are good targets for states we could turn blue.
by dole4pineapple on Sun Oct 02, 2005 at 02:21:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

For a southern state (3.00 / 1)

I like the idea of Alabama. It's basically "neutral" to most national candidates and that would mean that we would start competing in the deep south for the first time in a long time. The other states that should be considered are Virginia and Missouri - both important states to capture for 2008. Warner might run, however, making Virginia less attractive (and same with the Arkansas-Clark/Clinton bias)

The idea of New Mexico as the first western state kind of sucks, because Bill Richardson might run. I like the idea of Colorado and/or Nevada up there though.

by KainIIIC on Sat Oct 01, 2005 at 06:23:57 PM EST

Re: For a southern state (none / 0)

I think you are absolutely right.

The Dems need to jump into the deep end in the South. They are getting filtered reports of Dems on the national level. The local news is a different kettle of fish. I think the only reason that the truth came out in NOLA because it was a Democratic city and the local news was awsome... so the national news had to follow.

Six months of retail campaigning in the south still does not mean our message will get out if Dems once again run to the right... but it is a good start of them just being there. I think Dean and Sharpton were the only ones to fo to Mississippi in the primaries...

Besides telling us how to live, think, marry, pray, vote, invest, educate our children and, die, the GOP has done a fine job of getting gov't out of our lives.
by Parker on Sun Oct 02, 2005 at 03:35:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: For a southern state (none / 0)

Southern states are key to any win - esp. Florida,
and electoral rich states like Texas.

by turnerbroadcasting on Sun Oct 02, 2005 at 09:58:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Florida is not really a southern state (none / 0)

The panhandle is, but the rest of the state is not.  Most of the rest of the south doesn't matter for the following reason: If our guy wins many southern states, he would have been ahead enough in other swing states (Iowa, New Hampshire, New Mexico, Nevada, Arizona, Ohio, Florida), that he wouldn't need any southern states to win.  Some of the borderline ones (Arkansas, North Carolina, Lousiana) might be useful, but for the most part, I favor a western strategy over a southern one.
by Geotpf on Mon Oct 03, 2005 at 05:17:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: For a southern state (none / 0)

I read a persuasive argument here on MyDD for starting with just one state: Missouri.  The writer put in all of the demographic and geographical data for an average state: percentage of African-Americans, Spanish-speaking citizens, the rural-urban divide, socio-economic level and spread, the amount of navigable waterfront (if you count the Missippi), the size, the amount of mountains.  Everything.  He averaged everything together and Missouri was dead-on average on every item.  It's even almost dead center of the 48 contiguous states.  Add to that the fact that for, what, a hundred years they have always voted for the winner.
He said that the advantage of having just one state go first helps less well-known candidates compete early on without having to have huge sums of money upfront.
If we want a grassroots-appealing candidate, if we really want to win, that seems like a winning strategy.  I realize that that will not make some people in Iowa and New Hampshire happy, but in the long run it would help us refine our message for the mainstream so we can be stronger and more persuasive everywhere else.
by prince myshkin on Sun Oct 02, 2005 at 06:43:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Want a longer process? (none / 0)

The big problem with the current process is that Iowa, and to a lesser degree New Hampshire, select a single leader.  Since 1976, when Ioiwa effectively burst on to the scene, the process has been usually that Iowa selects a leader and New Hampshire either ratifies the choice (possibly polluted by the Iowa trsults) or selects the ONE challenger.

Putting more primaries up at the starting gate would more than likely yield a split verdict and lengthen the campaign.  Imagine a 2008 campaign starting with Iowa, New Hampshire, Nevada, and Mayland.  We might have four separate winners.  Rather than lavishing tens of millions on the 100,000 to 120,000 caucus goers of Iowa we'd split the riches.  Hey, throw in Michigan and Arkansas.  

At the very least let's make Iowa and New Hampshire the same day.  In 2004, polls indicated a split verdict (Kerry and Dean).  In 2000, another split verdict (Gore and Breadley).
Everything being equal (and I know that NH law stands in the way), scrap the caucus and make Iowa a primary.  Maybe we'd get a bigger turnout and we'd avoid the horse trading that makes most of the candidates also rans.

I READ the Des Moines Register on a weekly basis over the net for three years and on a daily basis for six months because of their outsized influence.  (Yes the paper itself is a major presence).  This is nuts.  But it is reality in 2005.  

Spread it out.  Get rid of the stupid retail politics which is NO reflection on how candidates perform in a national campaign.  Let the regional influences be felt.

Finally, thank you Michigan, the sole voice of sanity!  Thank you Senator Levin!

by David Kowalski on Sat Oct 01, 2005 at 09:48:40 PM EST

The whole idea of keeping retail politics is silly (none / 0)

How important are retail politics in the general election? You don't have time for them. And candidates who are good at retail politics often are not good at general elections. For example, look at Jimmy Carter. Great one-on-one. Horrible national contender. The only reason he won was Watergate. The big states deserve just as much a say. I know a lot of people don't like big states voting early because some candidates don't have the resources to compete. But 99% of the nation is disenfranchised by letting Iowa and New Hampshire go before anyone else. Plus the people of New Hampshire have a pretty poor track record when it comes to picking winners. In 2004, they picked Kerry. He lost. McCain and Gore in 2000, neither of whom ended up as president. They didn't vote for Clinton in 1992 either. If we trusted them, we'd have been running Paul Tsongas against George Bush. The types of candidates who tend to win in New Hampshire are clearly not the types who end up becoming president.
by dole4pineapple on Sat Oct 01, 2005 at 09:56:07 PM EST

Re: The whole idea of keeping retail politics is s (none / 0)

you say no NH and yet you're also saying no carter? Carter won because he was a personable insurgent who beat the pants off paul simon. And the DNC changed the rules, just like they are doing now, to keep the "Deans" out of the process.

by turnerbroadcasting on Sun Oct 02, 2005 at 04:59:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I say get rid of New Hampshire (none / 0)

and make Massachusetts the New England state to start things off.  
by strrbr on Sat Oct 01, 2005 at 10:08:48 PM EST

Re: I say get rid of New Hampshire (none / 0)

NO!!!!!

Then we'll be stuck with "Northeastern elites" EVERY TIME. No, no, no.

California, Texas, New York, and Florida first. The four biggest, most important states. All heavily influential. Two liberal, two more conservative. All with heavy minority populations. Big big big.

California and New York back candidates like Jerry Brown, Texas and Florida back candidates like Bill Clinton. Therefore, both types of Democrats get their say, and the four biggest states get first dibs. Screw Iowa. Screw New Hampshire. Screw South Carolina, and all those other pasty-white, low-population farm states with little influence on the national economy. Between California, Texas, New York, and Florida, about 35% of America is represented, and a larger portion of American minorities. It's the only democratic approach.

I'm sorry, but a tiny rural state that is 97% white is not America. California, Florida, New York, Texas, that's America.

by raginillinoian on Sat Oct 01, 2005 at 11:13:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I say get rid of New Hampshire (none / 0)

I sort of consider K street as America. I get all misty and choked up when I see lobbyists driving big black mercedes benz with the windows all dark and rolled up. It gives me a warm, patriotic feeling.

I just know they're helping us out. Fighting our battles in every georgetown parlor.

America stands for

  1. Corrupt election processes and un-auditable companies running hacked software to count the votes

  2. A billionaire can jack-off-to-nude-boys mags and molest kids and go free- court system

  3. Dead bodies floating in the water next to people when natural disasters strike

  4. Torturing innocent civilians with car batteries and black hoods on their heads

  5. Shooting people in the head who are lying down and harmless

  6. Ripping off Trillions of dollars from Americans in big dot - con stock schemes

  7. Flying the Bin Ladens out of the country on 911

  8. Arabian Horse Show directors getting FEMA posts if they're the roomie of a roomie of a pal who kisses ass, and gets paid off (oh by the way, there are about 80 of these guys under the current administratoin)

  9. Blocking dangerous environmental reforms and spewing out poison all over the world ! Down with Kyoto, up with a new sea route through the Arctic!

  10. Shutting down schools because we want to run up gas prices for oil companies.

Of course, if you look carefully oil companies and media firms love all of this - americans are isolated, watching their TV ads, buying gas and everything is just great - hey they've got some new oil fields out there even if it meant hurting some innocent people, or killing them, or clipping their nipples to electrodes.

How can we ignore the fact that this is in fact the real issue?

All we have to do is wake up, and vote for the right person even if the TV tells us not to.

by turnerbroadcasting on Sun Oct 02, 2005 at 05:07:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I say get rid of New Hampshire (none / 0)

No way.  If you think the Democratic delegation of FL and TX are conservative, you're crazy.  Florida Democrats are just as liberal as those from New York.  If not, more so.  Texas ain't that much further behind.  If you really want to get a better cross-section of the party, you have to chose states with a small urban populace, think Indiana or Montana.  That would be a better way to go if you are talking NY and CA in a big "Super First Day" context.
by Eric11 on Mon Oct 03, 2005 at 01:36:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Let me ask this... (none / 0)

...why don't we Californians get the first voice? We have more people than any of you, goddamnit, and a more diverse population too: 45% white, 34% Latino, 11% Asian, 6% black, etc. etc. etc. We should get the most important vote, not those crazy libertarians in New Hampshire!

I don't get why small states should have such an advantage over big states. We have more people. That earns us more power.

Here's my plan:

First primary - California, Texas, New York, Florida. The four biggest states. Two liberal and Democratic, one conservative and Republican, one moderate and swingy. All very diverse (all four with big Latino populations and the last three with big black populations). All BIG.

Second - Illinois, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan. The Rust Belt. Slow-growing but clout-heavy. The backbone of any Democratic victory. Also the second most populated group of four.

Third - everybody else. From Georgia to Wyoming, everybody gets their say.

Doesn't that seem fair?

by raginillinoian on Sat Oct 01, 2005 at 11:09:02 PM EST

Re: Let me ask this... (3.00 / 1)

First, it's too expensive; you've gotta have a lotta loot to compete.

Second, those are almost too diverse.  We want states that aren't all white, but we need to make sure we pick a nominee that appeals to whites as well; I'd rather have a state whose racial background matches that of the nation, rather than one that's too white (NH/IA) or not white enough (CA/TX); let's just pick one that matches the nation; anyone know which states qualify there?.

by LaX WI on Sat Oct 01, 2005 at 11:17:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Let me ask this... (none / 0)

A good example of that might be Michigan, or Illinois, or New Jersey, or North Carolina. But these are all flawed. All have higher black percentages than the nation at large, and lower Latino percentages. So, of the big states Florida might actually be the best match.
by raginillinoian on Sun Oct 02, 2005 at 02:49:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Let me ask this... (3.00 / 1)

FL might be good, if it wasn't so damn big and costly.  Also we then run into problems with old people vs young people demographics.  I don't think we should ignore all other demographics for the sake of looking at race; let's look at the whole picture: age, education, union percentage, rural-urban ratio, political swingyness, and yes, race, in our calculation.  Making it solely based on race ignores all the other complexities in determining how people will vote.
by LaX WI on Sun Oct 02, 2005 at 07:35:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Why do we have to have a candidate... (none / 0)

that appeals to whites?
no we don't.
It's been shown that white males break overwhelmingly for Republicans, and that isn't going to change until we start addressing class issues, which transcend race.

There will never be a state that is "perfect", and quite frankly, considering how big of a role California plays in the US, we should at least get something of an earlier say.

also please don't ever use the term "not white enough", again, that kind of bothers me.

-C.

by neutron on Sun Oct 02, 2005 at 12:23:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why do we have to have a candidate... (none / 0)

I don't think even I am white enough.
by turnerbroadcasting on Sun Oct 02, 2005 at 05:08:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why do we have to have a candidate... (3.00 / 1)

It wasn't me intent to offend with "not white enough;" merely to use a written shorthand for "has a lower than average percentage of whites" just as I used "too white" to indicate "has a higher than average percentage of whites."  I don't think it should bother you that we should find a balance, rather than our current group of states that underrepresent minorities or another group that would underrepresent whites.

Also, we do have to appeal to whites.  Even if every non-white American voted for the Dem, they would lose if that's all that voted for them.  Maybe not further down the road, but right now, that's the case.  What's more, turnout in the General among whites is higher than many minority groups, so I don't think that we should say we can win without anyone just yet.

What's more, we already win in CA.  There's no question that the Dem nominee will carry that state.  So why not give states that will determine the outcome of the election a choice of who they would back.  MI, PA, FL, OH- all are important swing states, just like WI.  And even NH and IA are pretty swingy, as they were two of the three states that changed hands this election.  I don't think we should hold our most important primary in the most liberal states, just as I don't think the GOP should hold their's in the most conservative; it would lead to nominees that the swing states with middle America would be displeased with.

by LaX WI on Sun Oct 02, 2005 at 07:32:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Let me ask this... (none / 0)

Don't like it.  The best thing about retail politics in small state primaries is that it allow less-funded candidates that have good personal qualities, or strong messages, to challenge the big boys.  

McCain's victory over the Bush machine in 2000--which might have worked out if he had not gotten off message in South Carolina--would never have happened if we had the primary process you recommend.  Johnson would have never been knocked off by McCarthy.  Buchanan would never have bitch-slapped Bush Sr..  (I don't like Buchanan either, but it was a hell of a lot of fun!)

Under your system the well-funded party apparatus designates with lots of money and name recognition will win the nomination on Day One.  Hell, why don't we just go back to letting the party leaders pick the candidates themselves, like we used to, and save all that campaign cash for the general election?

by paul minot on Sat Oct 01, 2005 at 11:23:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Let me ask this... (1.00 / 1)

Johnson would never have been knocked off by Mccarthy.  And somehow getting Nixon elected instead of another four years of Johnson is supposed to be a good thing?  I would say that was another example of how the Democratic Party got screwed by New Hampshire.  
by Demo Dan in Dayton on Sun Oct 02, 2005 at 12:06:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Let me ask this... (none / 0)

Johnson was knocked off by McCarthy. That would be why he announced that he wouldn't run again on the same night that McCarthy kicked his ass in Wisconsin by a two-to-one margin.

And it was McCarthy's fault that Nixon was elected. It was Johnson's fault for starting the war in Vietnam and Humphrey's fault for supporting it.

by craverguy on Sun Oct 02, 2005 at 04:38:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Let me ask this... (2.33 / 3)

Well the quote was replying to the post above.  And just for the record that was Eisenhower that started the crap in Vietnam NOT Johnson.  And as for Humphrey, well he did what all Vice Presidents do.  Had Johnson put Bobby on the ticket in '64 he would have done the exact same thing.  His political instincts were too good to do anything else.  Sorry about the off thread digression.
by Demo Dan in Dayton on Sun Oct 02, 2005 at 09:43:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Let me ask this... (none / 0)

you imbecile. McCain was slimed in the SC primary just like Kerry was scum boated . Propaganda, even if you want to accept it in some form, kills good men.

by turnerbroadcasting on Sun Oct 02, 2005 at 09:59:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Despite my bias (3.00 / 1)

I think we should make WI an early state.  We've got minorities (Milwaukee), union voters, students (who, by the way, are the only group that became MORE pro-dem in the last election, as well as being voters-in-training for the next 30 years) in Madison, farmers, and we're about the swingiest state you can find.  What's more, we're pretty inexpensive, as well as having a progressive tradition (Proxmire, La Follette, and Feingold).  Why not WI?

As for the southern state, I disagree with Alabama; they won't vote for us in the general anyway, so why let them have a say in the primary.  I like VA or AR or MO better, since we could capture any one of them in the next.  Or what about WV?  They've got so many dems in statewide office, they're willing to give us another shot.

by LaX WI on Sat Oct 01, 2005 at 11:15:00 PM EST

Re: Despite my bias (none / 0)

Wisconsin seems like a great choice (Midwest, Middle America, swing state), until you look at the ethnic background:

87% white
6% black
4% Latino

Too white.

by raginillinoian on Sun Oct 02, 2005 at 02:51:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

What's the principle? (3.00 / 1)

Looking at these comments, it's apparent that the first thing to do is have some kind of discussion as to what kinds of principles should underlie the prim/cauc order. I've seen a lot of suggestions.

  1. Regional diversity has been brought up every time I've seen this discussed this year -- much discussion earlier of rotating regional primaries, so that a different area goes first every four years, and here the suggestion that a state from each region should be allowed to speak up early. How should that work?

  2. State size -- I see suggestions that big states should go first. I don't like that idea so much, since it makes the later states less important. If you think things are front-loaded when Iowa and New Hampshire go first, imagine what it would look like with big old Cali setting the tone. It would make more sense to me to have the smaller states go first and work up to the big'uns. But should state size be a factor at all?

  3. Demographics -- should racial diversity be a factor? Should urbanization? Should a state's position be affected by how likely it is to vote for a Dem candidate at all? If so, how?

  4. Length of Season -- should prim/caucs be held simultaneously or spread further out? If we're going to have "Super Tuesdays" should they be regional, to reduce the advantage of candidates with private jets? How many states should vote at once?

Basically, we need to come to some kind of terms on what the format should be, and why, before we start picking states. Unless some kind of principle is stated to govern the decisions, you'll wind up with a result that's either arbitrary or calculated to serve somebody's (as opposed to everybody's) perceived interests.
Are we safer yet?
by catastrophile on Sun Oct 02, 2005 at 12:03:58 AM EST

Re: What's the principle? (none / 0)

Frontloading is part of their marketing strategy - which apparently still hinges on TV; a willingness to try to hang the GOP on the 'red' states.
This is a direct result of the innoculation myth - the same myth that plays out every year since rove became the master of propaganda. Dems play second fiddle to him.. anyone remember mcauliffe saying "we're going to run a nasty campaign" - sounding like "me too, karl! I will play dirty too". totally ineffective, in 2004. And kerry was standing there saying "the southern states are irrelevant".

Daschle was purged by the opposition and it ended up, here you have essentially a pro-life senate leader (whoops, sorry special interest group!) that suddenly is able to rock the republicans world and shut them down.

Dems and republicans make deals on this kind of stuff. Why? Lobbyists get together and cut business deals (regardless of how much scorn Dean has for the georgetown parlors they are still firmly in control, just in different "hippie" forms ) -  steer the party members whichever way they want to go. theres no such thing as a "platform" with lobbyists in charge, just differing business deals happening at different times that require different levels of pork to line them up.

There is one, simple, shining way the Democrats can do something about this: embrace Instant Runoff Voting. Be, for the last time, a party that says to the American people

YOU CAN LIKE SOME THINGS ABOUT ONE PERSON AND OTHER THINGS ABOUT ANOTHER AND WE WILL LISTEN TO YOU AND TRY TO UNDERSTAND YOU

And then, god willing, they will all try to understand what is really going on. A whole generation of people happy to be ignorant. That is the real problem. Fox news fires up the propaganda machine, seriously - who cares if you have coverage - Fox now provides all news to clear channel radio. You want people to be huddled together in New england saying how great it is to be a democrat? end of the party, amigo.  Real reform means saying goodbye to business as usual. Instant runoff allows independent voices to at last be heard, and watch how the republican party fractures into a thousand pieces and how some of them tilt towards democrats when they hear the democrats are able to speak for America.

America wants independence from tyranny.

TYRANNY.
 

by turnerbroadcasting on Sun Oct 02, 2005 at 04:53:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

my list (none / 0)

Ideally, I'd like to see all small swing states be the first primary states.  The first two states would be the ones in which the vote was closest in the last election, or maybe the ones that most represent the demographics of the country as a whole.  Then the other states would vote at regular intrevals one by one.  Maybe in this order:

New Mexico
West Virginia
Nevada
New Hampshire
Maine
Iowa
Oregon
Colorado
Wisconsin
Minnesota

by roller on Sun Oct 02, 2005 at 02:48:40 AM EST

Re: my list (none / 0)

well, if you're going purely by the swingiest, pick Nevada.

Nevada would actually be a good choice. It's the New America (fastest growing state in the Union), so it's not an old-fashioned or out-of-date choice like Iowa. It's got a large and Latino population. And it's very competitive. Kerry would have won Nevada had he put any effort in. Instead, he lost by a 50-48 margin...CLOSER THAN THE NATION AT LARGE.

by raginillinoian on Sun Oct 02, 2005 at 02:53:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: my list (none / 0)

Oh c'mon, Kerry put in quite a bit of effort.  I saw him three times here.  Plus, he went up North to Reno, spoke to the National Guard convention thing and had Clinton fly in and give a speech.  His ads were ALL over tv as well as some interviews on local TV stations.  I'm not sure what more he could of done locally rather than what he did NOT do nationally (fight back against Swift Boats for one thing, there are a lot of vets here and that probably hurt him).

Nevada is a good choice for the primary though.  Diverse, a somewhat small population of 2 million, and a good urban/rural mix.  Last year during the Primary we had a record number of people show up, way more than previous Primaries.  I think Nevada is ready for this.

by roller on Sun Oct 02, 2005 at 04:31:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: my list (none / 0)

I like Nevada or Colorado for the western state primary. Both states are growing with a large Latino population. New Mexico would be good too, but if Gov. Richardson runs that might nullify it as a competitive race.
In the south, I like Tennessee. Granted we have little chance of winning that state without a southern candidate in the general election, but their state government is controlled by Democrats- albeit more conservative Dems. Perhaps the state is too large though. With Edwards, Warner, and Clinton running, the following states cant be in play because they cause a conflict of interest IMO: Arkansas, Virginia, Carolinas. Yes, even South Carolina. I know Alabama or Mississippi has NO shot at voting for a Democrat, but who cares, they are racially diverse.
by AC4508 on Sun Oct 02, 2005 at 05:42:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Does it hurt Hillary? (none / 0)

If so, I'm all for it.   If we nominate her for this incredibly important election and go down to the inevitable smashing defeat, we will regret it for decades.  If you think she can win, take this test: imagine your most "normal" neighbor (the one who doesn't surf blogs four hours a day like me and most of us here) voting for ANY woman, let alone Hillary Clinton.  Remember: ask 1000 of your fellow citizens who "Jack Abramoff" is, for example, and you'll get 999 blank stares and one guy who thinks he owns the local deli.
by tuffie on Sun Oct 02, 2005 at 08:25:34 AM EST

How about starting in Hawaii??? (none / 0)

It's the most diverse state.
by strrbr on Sun Oct 02, 2005 at 10:40:27 AM EST

Re: How about starting in Hawaii??? (none / 0)

its a scam. they leave hawaii at the end so everyone can fly out there after its over. votes democratic every time.
by turnerbroadcasting on Sun Oct 02, 2005 at 05:10:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You start with your strength (none / 0)

New York and California.  Why concentrate on DINO states?
by Eli Rabett on Sun Oct 02, 2005 at 11:33:39 AM EST

Re: You start with your strength (none / 0)

IF you start with New York and California, you are, in effect, endorsing media front runners with the most name recognition, the most money (with which to make use of the expensive media markets), and the most establishment backing.

Other that, it's fine.

by InigoMontoya on Sun Oct 02, 2005 at 05:13:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The Median Voter in Ohio (3.00 / 1)

If your only goal is to find a candidate who will win in the general election, you want a candidate who will appeal to the median Ohio, Florida, Missouri, or Virginia general election voter.  That voter will be more conservative than the median Democratic voter in just about any primary.

If you want to simulate that general election median voter, you pretty much want to find the most conservative Democratic primary you can.

Setting aside candidates' home states, the only primaries that Kerry lost in 2004 were Oklahoma (to Clark and Edwards) and South Carolina (to Edwards).  We probably would have done better in the general election with either of those candidates than we did with Kerry.  

Those states already have early primaries.  Nebraska, Alabama, and Montana are currently the most conservative states (judging by Bush's approval ratings) with late (after March) primaries.

by Gassendi on Sun Oct 02, 2005 at 11:47:22 AM EST

The best standard above all...... (none / 0)

is to have graduating primaries by electoral votes. Many have proposed this option and I think it makes sense overall. We should have 4 stage primaries as follows:

  1. States with btw 1-8 electoral votes should go first, say over a two day voting period (preferably weekends) in mid-Jan

  2. Next in line would be 8-17 electoral votes, same format, but in early Mar

  3. 18-26 EVs go next in early May

  4. And finally all others 27 and above go in early July and by August we get our convention

This basically spreads out the campaign over all states and as we get closer to the end we have candidates pretty familiar to the country with a well advertised agenda for all to see and judge. Sounds like democracy to me
by dantata on Sun Oct 02, 2005 at 12:43:13 PM EST

Systemic Reform of Presidential Nomination Process (none / 0)

From the comments so far, most recognize the desirability of a presidential nominating process that:

  • Remains competitive for a longer period of time in order to give the public a greater opportunity to engage the campaign and to become informed about the candidates.

  • Results in a briefer interval between the decisive contests and the conventions in order to help people sustain the levels of public engagement and information they had attained when the nominating campaign peaked.

  • Increases the likelihood that voters in all states will have an effective voice in the selection of the nominees.

  • Preserves "retail politicking" in small states early in the season. Gives an under-funded grass-roots campaign a chance to catch fire and take off. Gives candidates a chance to bounce back from early defeats.

  • Allows small states that are diverse, both with respect to race/ethnicity and urban/small town/rural, to participate early in the process.

Sticking states in this or that slot is just so many band-aids.  We need a comprehensive, systemic plan that accomplishes all of the above goals.

During his tenure as California Secretary of State, Bill Jones (R) worked to reform the presidential nomination process nationwide, through the National Association of Secretaries of State (NASS), and also through his membership on the Republican National Committee's (RNC) 1999-2000 Advisory Commission on the Presidential Nominating Process (chaired by William Brock).  In February 1999, the NASS endorsed the Rotating Regional Primary Plan, which was largely the work of Bill Jones and Massachusetts Secretary of the Commonwealth William Galvin (D).  The Brock Commission recommended the Delaware Plan in its May 2000 report to the RNC Rules Committee, although Bill Jones wrote a dissenting statement in favor of the Rotating Regional Primary Plan.  The Delaware Plan was rejected at the Republican National Convention in July 2000, in part due to opposition from the large-population states.  It is easy to see why.  Under the Delaware Plan, the 12 other most populous states--all the way down to Virginia--would have always voted last, by which time the nomination would often already have been decided.

To return to a more democratic presidential nomination process, the calendar of primary contests must be spread out again, as it was 30 years ago.  Specifically, care must be taken to craft a system that allows a wide field of candidates to be serious contenders throughout a significant portion of the campaign season, giving the American people more and better choices.  This can only be done by ensuring that the early primaries are few in number and are held in relatively small-population states, where it is not necessary to expend huge sums of money to wage effective campaigns.  This was the philosophy behind the Delaware Plan.  Its fatal flaw was that it permanently penalized the most populous states.  We need a plan that preserves retail politicking in small venues in the early going to undercut the power of big money by giving underfunded grassroots campaigns an opportunity to catch fire and take off.  But, we also need a plan that protects the interests of populous states.

Take a look at the American Plan (a.k.a. the Graduated Random Presisential Primary Plan). at AmericanPlan.org. It is endorsed by the Center for Voting and Democracy (FairVote.org).

The plan I propose is in line with the philosophy of the Delaware Plan, yet treats large and small states with a very high degree of equality.  My plan ensures a few small primary contests at the beginning of the season, lowering the barrier to entering the political market of ideas.  Even so, large-population states are eligible to vote as early as the fourth of ten election intervals, prior to which only 11 percent of the American electorate will have voted.  Given that California is 12 percent of American electorate, it cannot help but have a huge impact on the outcome of the campaign in most years.  The American Plan is vastly superior to the Rotating Regional Primary Plan, which, although it treats all states equally, erects an enormous barrier by requiring candidates to campaign simultaneously in one-fourth of the nation.  Only a tiny field of candidates in either major political party will have the funds to do that.

A principal problem with the presidential primary reform issue has been that, although a number of politicians have recognized the desirability of reform, there has been little political will to follow through because it has been virtually a non-issue for the media and the public.  However, the climate is changing.  The grassroots involvement that has always been lacking on this issue is gathering momentum.  Four California county Democratic central committees, one assembly district Democratic committee, the California Young Democrats, and the Young Democrats of America have endorsed the American Plan.  Additionally, California Democratic Party chairman Art Torres introduced the American Plan at the 1 October meeting of the DNC Commission on Presidential Nomination Timing and Scheduling (co-chaired by David Price and Alexis Herman), and also spoke about the plan at the CDP Executive Board meeting in Manhattan Beach, California the following day.  The CDP is set to consider a resolution on the American Plan at its next Executive Board meeting in January 2006.

Naturally, because of this year's Price-Herman Commission, we have been concentrating our efforts on the Democratic Party; however, we also recognize the RNC's long history on this issue, and hope to stimulate a revival of that effort.  A bipartisan strategy is essential to the success of this mission.

In its 1 October meeting, several Price-Herman Commission members expressed the sense that reforming the nomination process must go well beyond the minor changes the commission is considering for 2008.  They want to "do the whole ville," but they're worried about the party taking point on this issue and getting shot up by the other party.  The concern is a valid one.  It also exists on the Republican side, and it was a contributing factor to the demise of the Brock Commission report at the 2000 Republican National Convention.

Another sentiment expressed in the Price-Herman Commission was the lack of Republican cooperation on the issue of presidential primary reform.  This is tragicomic, given that Bill Brock expressed his frustration to me a couple of weeks ago that the Price-Herman Commission hadn't contacted him.  He remains very passionate on this issue, and he is ready to join forces with like-minded Democrats.  In a phone conversation in August, Bill Jones said that he is for any proposal that "shakes up the system."  Other former members of the Brock Commission that FairVote.org has talked to are Tom Sansonetti and Jim Nicholson.

Bill Brock has expressed an interest in getting grassroots movements going in Republican state parties similar to the one in the California Democratic Party.  Fixing the system is not a leap of faith that either party need take alone, and we can create an opportunity for them to take the leap together for 2012.  The DNC is unwilling to effect a major change for 2008, and the RNC's rules prevent it from doing so.  But what can be accomplished in the next couple of years is the creation of a climate of reform within the Republican Party to mirror the work we have begun in the Democratic Party.  If successful, the RNC could empanel its own commission in 2007 to recommend systemic changes to the 2008 Republican National Convention for implementation in 2012.  Parallel to this and for the same purpose, the DNC could empanel a successor commission to the present Price-Herman Commission.

We need a triple blue moon--RNC, DNC, and NASS--to pull this off, but we can make it happen.  We need for grassroots efforts to get rolling all over the United States.  Get active in your county central committees and get them to pass resolutions that call on the RNC or DNC (as appropriate) to establish a commission to report its recommendation for systemic reform of the presidential nomination process for implementation beginning in the 2012 presidential election cycle.  These resolutions should also call on such a commission to seriously consider the American Plan.

by tgangale on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 07:55:56 PM EST


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