Anti-Labor, Pro-liberal

It's rant time.

<rant>The great thing about blogging is that I don't have to skirt around the edges if I don't want to. So, to make a short story even shorter, I didn't blog today because I spent the entire day getting blasted to celebrate the simultaneous occasions of my birthday and the Eagles making the Superbowl. The Patriots are going down and, even if they aren't (OK, they probably aren't), this is going to be one happy city for the next two weeks.

Anyway, after a long an inconclusive game of cards, I spent a while watching the post-game shows. Much to my surprise, Governor Rendell was on Comcast Sports Night. Even more surprising, he wasn't on in an interview, or as an occasional guest, he was actually one of the three commentators for the program. He was on TV quoting stats, talking strategy, providing analysis of blitz packages, and going back on forth with the other analysts as though he was an actual sports announcer. The fact that he is the Governor never even came up. It was purely apolitical football discussion.

Anyway, seeing Rendell play sports analyst reminded me why he became Governor: because he is able to connect with wide swaths of the electorate who do not necessarily view politics as a series of legislative policies or "issues." Somehow, even though he is part of the Philadelphia political machine, he just has the touch that will secure a huge section of the Perot swing vote. He comes across as a reformer, even though he is anything but. He knows exactly what aspects of his personality to market, and he does an excellent job of it.

Watching him on TV also reminded me of the fairly bloody gubernatorial primary here three years ago between Rendell and Casey. I spent some time flyering for Casey because he had been endorsed by the Pennsylvania AFL-CIO. However, at best I was a detached or occasional activist. It bothered me that Casey was anti-choice, even though it bothered me a little bit more that Rendell, considering what he had done as Mayor, was clearly anti-labor. Because of these mutual dislikes, it was hard for me to become too involved, but in the end I sided with Casey. The way I figured it, reproductive rights hinge largely upon Roe, over which a governor has no influence, but labor rights have been in severe decline for decades. A governor has very real influence over statewide labor rights--just ask anyone in Illinois, California or New York. Of course, in the end, neither labor nor choice mattered. Rendell won in a landslide due to his Philadelphia connections and his "regular guy" image.

At long last, this brings me to the point of this article. I am staunchly pro-choice and pro-labor. However, while these positions did not matter in the election, they did matter among activists, whom I felt were strongly lined up behind Rendell. As someone (admittedly, a male) who is both pro-choice and pro-labor, this really bothered me. I worry that we have come to the point as a party where, in order to be a Democratic standard bearer, it is okay to be anti-labor and pro-choice while it is not okay to be anti-choice and pro-labor. It is as though liberalism has been detached from labor. Just for example, why is it that Roemer's position on reproductive rights has become an issue in the race for DNC chair, but no one's position on labor rights has become an issue? Why is it that when Kucinich ran for President, his announcement brought with it worries over his once anti-choice position, but no one's announcement brought with it cries over anyone's anti-labor positions? Kerry is practically dead last among Democratic Senators on Labor Rights, but no one cared during the primaries. In fact, have you ever, even once, heard of a major Democratic candidate being criticized for their position on labor? I haven't, and quite frankly an anti-labor Democrat even became our beloved President during the super-corporate nineties. By contrast, how often are potential Democratic standard bearers harangued about even holding anti-choice positions at one time? Because Kucinich, who had been voting pro-choice for eight months, had become pro-choice only around eight months before he announced, his candidacy was basically D.O.A.

Why is it that being pro-Roe a litmus test, but being anti-FTAA is not? Why is it that being anti-occupation is a litmus test for so many in the Democratic Party, but being pro-card check for the private sector is not? In my opinion, a candidate's position on private sector card check law should be as well known as their position on single payer health care, Iraqi troop deployment, the Kyoto treaty or Roe, but can you even tell me what Kerry's position on private sector card check is? I'll wager you ten dollars that you can't.

The fact of the matter is this: one of the main reasons Democrats are losing elections is because it is okay to be pro-environment and anti-labor, it is okay to be pro-Roe and anti-labor, it is okay to be anti-war and anti-labor, it is okay to be anti-patriot act and anti-labor, but it is never okay to be pro-labor and anti-any of these other things. It has literally come to the point where you can be pro-liberal, but anti-labor, and no one seems to care. We can have millennialist rhetoric about the abolishment of our rights in so many areas, but never in labor, even though the erosion of labor rights is far more clear than the erosion of nay of our other rights. For cryin' out loud, in the 1950's, 40% of the workforce was unionized. Now, it is 1/3 that total. That is not a potential crisis--that is a full blown disaster that is already taking place.

Quite frankly, the leadership of our party, in an alliance with the Republicans, sold unions down the river for middle-class liberalism. Further, the massive decline in union membership is directly tied to the massive decline in the Democratic Party, especially at the grassroots level. For the love of God, unions were our Left Wing Noise Machine, and we destroyed them to protect our middle class causes at every turn. Who provided our precinct captains that we now so desperately desire? We provided the grassroots before the netroots were around? Who provided the anti-conservative economic policy? Whose void are we now claiming to fill?

Here is an ugly truth about the netroots: we are the not so rich version of the DLC that we claim to hate. Our lack of interest and knowledge about labor is stunning. The importance of these issues among the netroots is revealing. Pop quiz--can anyone even tell me what private sector card check means, much less what it would mean to this country? The last time I used that term in a blog article, it elicited only questions, no affirmations.

You want to know why Canada is so much more left wing than America? It might have something to do with 40% of their workforce being unionized. You want to know why Western Europe is so much more left wing than America? The answer is similar. And this is not a chicken and the egg argument--the unions are the ur force here.

This past Thursday, during the Philly DFA steering committee / house party meeting, I snapped at a couple of people who I both like and admire very much when they complained about the potential difficulty in endorsing and working for Casey for the Senate in 2006 because he is anti-choice. I said something like "yeah, it would be terrible if we actually got someone pro-labor in the Senate for once." I felt bad about snapping at them, but it does not reduce the level of my frustration. It is absolutely stunning to me how little the netroots care about labor, yet still claim to be "taking back the party." It is stunning to me how little the netroots care about labor and still claim to be building a progressive future.

Would it be so bad to have someone who is pro-labor and anti-choice, considering our current state of affairs? Granted, it would not be as good as having someone pro-choice and pro-labor, but why is one a litmus test and the other one isn't? Is Roe being overturned really worse than all of us working at Wal-Mart? As a man, I ask that as a serious question, not rhetorical or sarcastic in any way. (More as an aside, I would ask which one is closer to reality, anyway?) More to the point: why aren't labor rights a litmus test too? Nothing pegs our middle class movement for what it is more than our apathy about labor. That needs to end, because if we are not pro-labor, and loudly pro-labor, the Democratic Party will die no matter what Noise Machine or grassroots movement we bring to bear. Period. It is time for a new litmus test, and quite frankly, as far as I know, the only candidate for chair who passes that test is Howard Dean.

</rant>


Display:


BRAVO (none / 0)

I concur with EVERYTHING you just wrote but have an observation.

When you mentioned Rendall hosting a sports show, my mind immediately conjured up the image of Rush Limbaugh on ESPN...what's up with that.

The wingnuts ideology has already seeped into our churches now are they trying to infect sports. I just watched a documentary on Pele and it revealed how the "Generals" used sport as an opiate for the masses. What are they up to now?

Besides telling us how to live, think, marry, pray, vote, invest, educate our children and, die, the GOP has done a fine job of getting gov't out of our lives.
by Parker on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 03:05:01 AM EST

In solidarity (none / 0)

Except for Wal-Mart, labor issues are sadly ignored in the blogosphere.
by Lavoisier1794 on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 03:22:24 AM EST

PIPELINERS UNION PICKED UP MY MOMS INSURANCE... (none / 0)

after my father died..they pay for my mothers

medical insurance like 80% they did not have

to do that...because of them my mom was

able to have cancer surgery which saved her

life...all her drugs which are expensive

are 80% paid for...I thank God for pipeliners

union 798 in tulsa...how much longer they

can help I don't know...now I say that to say

this ..to bring all the union votes into

our corner lockstep is to re table abortion

and re table gun control ...the 2nd one is

easy just by the mere fact fascism is on the

rise in this country (people who want it all)

we as progressives need to get educated about

self defense for patriotic reasons (no! I am

not advocating violence but I am advocating

a deterrance from fascism).Now the first is more difficult ..but we need

to have an honest conversation with feminist

and women in general...so we can get 90%

voting block from labor..if not labor dies

we die...fascism grows.

by Aslanspal on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 03:51:47 AM EST

Re: PIPELINERS (none / 0)

I agree with you... I think.   If fascism is on the rise the first thing you need to do is support the 2nd amendment.  Get over the fact that is impossible to get guns out of the hands of criminals and it is very necessary for self-defense against a radical government.

By no means am I calling for a revolt, just asking progressives to support the rights that hold the union together.

by Classical Liberal on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 08:37:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PIPELINERS (none / 0)

Note:

the essence of fascism is NOT the propaganda, the Gestapo, the death camps.

The essence of Fascism, according to Mussolini, was ...

Crony Capitalism! The heart of Fascism lies in removing the distinction between the state and the firm.

It isn't just the Constitution that needs to be protected. It's also the whole structure of regulation which not only protected workers and unions but broke up monopolies, exposed crooked business deals, and the like.

This Right Wing movement wants to remove all regulational constraints on business and to unite favored coporations with office holders.

THAT is the sort of Fascism that powered Mussolini's Italy and Hitler's Germany. The Nazi Party was driven by its seamless intermarriage with Junkers and Krupp.

by Thresholder on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 06:24:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PIPELINERS (none / 0)

It is telling which leaders you decide to follow.  
by Classical Liberal on Thu Jan 27, 2005 at 06:32:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The Death of Labor unions... (none / 0)

Labor Unions as Seperated from a pro labor position are dead in my opinion.

It was the UPS strike that first made me aware of the sheer stupidity of the labor movement.  UPS is a union shop and far more pro labor than Federal express, however instead of unionising Federal express the unions made their benefactor less compeditive by striking.  Net result labor hurts the hand that feeds it.

Same story in California with grocery stores lowering benifits to compete with Wallmart.  Labor couldn't touch wallmart so they went after the food chains that had given them a much much better deal for a long time and were terribly terribly afriad of a wallmart that was entering the food segment in a serious staterbrothers way as opposed to their current gas station food way.

In my opinion we need to do one of two things.  

  1.  Either we need a massive massive massive massive effort to bring back unions like we had them in the past.  In my opinion this will fail as we are entering the robot revolution and capital really can do without labor for the first time in human history.

  2.  Find ways to help labor in ways that are not directly anti-management.  The farmers co-op model appeals to me as this is a way that we can help the common man.  We should have labor friendly orgainizations that are not anti-management/wallstreet.

Most of the poor and lower middle class actually pay more for things than do the rich.  Very poor may rent by the week because they cannot afford to pay the down payment for rent by month even though the monthly rent is lower.  Credit cards are a massive money drain for many people who have to borrow as oppopsed to already having the money.  Housing is another way the poor pay the rich.  

If liberal economics is better nation wide then we should be able to find ways to express it that make money in our local communitites.

Habitate for humanity is a good idea that breaks even but why don't they have a lottery for those houses and make money?  Making money is like releasing energy in chemical reactions, if you make money it will spread like an explosion, if not it won't.

Many poor play the lottery with an average pay back of 10 cents on the dollar.  Having a housing lottery that pays back 80 cents on the dollar and has as its prize a house that you have to live in for 3 years.  This lottery would raise local economies as the winner didn't win enough money to leave his neighborhood or job, just enough to make his/her life a little easier.  

Same idea but this time a lottery that pays off your credit card but only if you cancel all your credit cards and stay credit free for 6 months.

I think there are ways to be pro-worker, pro citizen, pro family that are not pro organized labor.  Because in my opinion organized labor as it is currently orgainized is dead or dying...

by donkeykong on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 04:05:58 AM EST

Re: The Death of Labor unions... (none / 0)

You are obviously ignorant to the process of getting an election for a union at these employers.  Let me explain.

UPS and FedEx are covered NOT under the National Labor Relations Act, but the Railway Labor Act.  In order to form a union at FedEx, you have to organize it everywhere, not shop by shop.

And, if someone doesn't vote, it's counted as a "no" vote for a union.  Plus, the fact that the boss has unfettered access to these workers and the unions have to got through dumpsters to try to find a list of workers put the union at a disadvantage.

And I would have to disagree with you on the UPS strike.  That strike brought forth the issue of part time America to the forefront.  When has that been an issue in America other than Wal-Mart?  

And by all accounts, the strike is seen as a victory for Labor, not a defeat.  Not to mention the fact that UPS is profitable than ever.

Labor needs to change, but we are far from dead.

by unionmark on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 10:09:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Death of Labor unions... (none / 0)

I have to agree with Union Mark on the UPS front.  Just because they had a better deal with the labor unions than Fed EX really isn't the issue.  The rights ofthe part time workers were not anywhere near the full time workers...the part-time guys make up a significant portion of UPS workforce.  I remember the hassles that happened when they went on strike (the store I worked for used UPS) and had managers delivering.  But if you ask me they brought it upon themselves.  The company gambled, they lost, they paid the price.  It hurt them short term, but long term (I know people who work for both companies) it seems to have helped them and of my friends the UPS workers seem to have a happier work enviroment than the FedEX guys.
http://www.imvotingrepublican.com/ McCain Sucks!
by yitbos96bb on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 02:08:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

How very warped (none / 0)

That you blame unions for these strikes.  Do you think that their workers woke up one morning and thought, "Hey!  Let's strike!  It'll be fun."  No.  Strikes were the only way that workers could compel management to meet their demands.

Fact is, in both cases, the management brought the strike upon itself.  They wanted it, or at least they wanted it more than they wanted to meet the demands of their workers.

What the UPS strike showed me was exactly how far management is willing to go to fuck over a worker.  Alternative readings are honestly baffling to me.

Support Regina Thomas, GA-12
by Drew on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 03:21:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How very warped (none / 0)

Quick name 3 more pro union shops than pre strike UPS.
by donkeykong on Tue Jan 25, 2005 at 03:46:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Death of Labor unions... (none / 0)

"however instead of unionising Federal express the unions made their benefactor less compeditive by striking..."

Doh!  What could we have been thinking of?  Of course, it's all clear now.  We should have just waved our magic unionizing wand and turned FedEx into a unionized shop.

Donkeykong, you don't realize how nearly impossible it is to organize new unions.  Federal law is supposed to aim for a "laboratory environment", which means that workers are supposed to be able to decide on representation without intimidation.  But, the corporations are allowed to hold mandatory anti-union meetings subtly use their workplace authority to influence the vote.  And those are just the legal things they can do.  If they do something illegal, they get slapped on the wrist.

by jameswithrow on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 08:58:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Northern California Grocery Strike (none / 0)

Did you read about the strike by the grocery clerks union in northern California? You didn't read about it because it never happened. The grocery stores took a look at the estimated billion dollar cost in lost sales and decided the current contract wasn't that bad after all. They completely caved.

The unions didn't go after the grocery stores, the grocery stores went after the unions. Chasing Walmart wages isn't the solution, it's the problem.

Of course you won't read about pro-union stories in the newspaper because newspapers are anti-union and have done everything they could to help kill off unions. The media bias against unions is as strong as any bias the media has. Misinformation is probably more prevalent on this issue than any other.

Unions can't strike back or mount a PR campaign because they are outgunned by the corporate and media interests.

by Gary Boatwright on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 09:00:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Northern California Grocery Strike (none / 0)

Look at the real picture.  The Grocery stores didn't go after the union in a vacuum then did it because faced with competition with Wallmart they would lose out because their cost structure doesn't allow them to compete with Wallmart.

End result Union keeps its jobs for a few years then Wallmart cleans house and all those jobs are lost forever.

by donkeykong on Tue Jan 25, 2005 at 03:45:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Northern California Grocery Strike (none / 0)

Pass laws that make it easy to organize unions and the Walmart problem disappears.
by SRconbio on Tue Jan 25, 2005 at 04:57:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Northern California Grocery Strike (none / 0)

Or organize a boycott of wallmart.

Or get other stores to match prices for 6 weeks and everyone boycotts wallmart for 6 weeks over wages.

etc.

Or get supliers to boycot wallmart.

Or get legislation that any store selling more goods from China than from USA must offer  X dollars per hour and X hours per week to X percent of its employees.

by donkeykong on Tue Jan 25, 2005 at 05:21:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

OKay I'll Bite (none / 0)

Can you please explain

"private sector card check law"

I googled it, got a general overview, but please do explain the ramifications for the labor ignorant (myself at the top of the list).

by Virginia Liberal on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 04:18:01 AM EST

Re: OKay I'll Bite (none / 0)

It has to do with Union elections.  When you want to unionize a place, you have to have an election and 50% of the voting work force must approve of the Union.  The problem is that once the companies learn about these elections, they scare off and strong arm the people who want to vote Union, and thus the Union measure burns in flames.  They will do things like Anti-Union direct mail, because, of course, they have all the employee addresses, and the Unions do not.

Some Unions actually get around this by getting more than half of the employees to sign Union cards.  The problem is that companies do not have to honor that and let the Union in the shop.  When you hear about people talk about "Card Check Neutrality", they mean laws that guarantee that companies recognize a Union if more than half of the employees sign up.  I'm not sure whether some states have such laws or not, but it needs to be federally mandated.

Until a friend of mine from the Dean campaign talked about this and my Mom, a former organizer, explained this to me, I didn't know card check from a hole in the wall.

by charlesdog12 on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 06:00:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Anti-Labor, Pro-Liberal (none / 0)

I'm hearing you.

I think there are challenging issues that the American people want solved and they're tired of hearing screams from all sides arguing about unimportant issues or purely ideological debate points.  The moral and philosophical entry requirements for joining the Democratic party are becoming so high that most regular folks just can't afford it anymore, they see the party sometimes as trivial at best in the causes it decides to champion and completely out of touch with the general population's concerns at worst.

As an example I give you the topic of gay marriage.  Over the holidays I was fortunate to have dinner with some people who had widely differing views on the subject.  After some minor debate they reached an accord, that gay's should have the same rights as everyone else, but that most of them didn't want it to be called marriage.  Why ?  Simple enough, some of them didn't believe in "gay marriage".  They did, however, believe that in a fair America everyone gay or straight, etc, should have the same basic rights when it comes to things like visitation and other points proponents of gay marriage put forth.  They also concluded that if one group couldn't have "marriage" mandated by the government then to be fair nobody should, so they decided the government shouldn't have it's nose in marriage to begin with and everyone should use civil unions.  Marriage was to return to the realm of religion and pairs(?) of people.  Imagine that, Democrats and Republicans were able to agree on something, solving the troubles of the world over dinner haha.

And what is so wrong with holding a moderate opinion ?  On the topic of choice, does the party have to follow it's zealots ?  Sure, there are people in America who want to get rid of abortion, some are fanatical, funded, and dangerous.  But most Americans don't seem to want that, most Americans seem to want to get rid of some of the more barbaric late term abortion procedures and keep abortion as a medical procedure, they don't want Roe/Wade overturned.  And there are plenty of people out there who agree with Democrats in general principle but have a hard time understanding where the party is coming from on some of these issues.  Why can't the party get on board with a reasonable moderate position in spirit as well as in word ?  Where are the party's moderate voices ?  Is it so terrible to be reasonable ?

In the last election stem cell research was a buzz phrase.  Many Americans actually have a moral delimma when it comes to stem cell research and need a chance to think about it, discuss it, consider it, and I believe they resented having it shoved down their throats on ideological grounds from all sides.  At it's base this is a shocking idea for a lot of people and they need some time to let it simmer and brew, to form an opinion.  But the party was perfectly willing to parade itself out on the tree limb in full cadence completely oblivious to the ever increasing amplitude of the limb's bounce as things became more precarious.  Does the Democratic party have to be the party of martyr's ?  Does it always have to be unfashionable to hold a popular opinion that a majority of people believes in ? haha.  And not for the reason of being popular, but in actual spirit and in essence, truly reach out and come to a consensus on the best path and do what is right for the country.  Where is the party's moderate voices, voices of pragmatics and practicality ?

What is a factory worker in Michigan actually concerned about ?  I don't think anybody has a clue.  Most folks don't talk with him, they just talk about him in the pubs in Georgetown.  I'm betting he's not concerned with gay marriage, stem cell research and abortion as much as he is road building, economic development and medical insurance though.

I'm probably just rambling ... I didn't think about it much before I wrote this LOL.

by Purple Foxglove on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 05:01:00 AM EST

Re: Anti-Labor, Pro-Liberal (none / 0)

Those "barbaric" late-term abortions are there to save women's lives, they aren't just something you do because you like barbarity.  

Surgery is generally pretty disgusting, you could make anything sound "barbaric" if you just describe it. (Want me to gross you out with descriptions of my eye surgery?  I usually short-hand it as, "I got my eye gouged out.")

What we need is to articulate what all of our beliefs are about and not let the right-wingers shape the discussion.  We have to explain why being pro-choice is the only pro-life position, that no one is saying we should require your church to marry gays, that people who work for a living deserve job safety and a living wage and the knowledge that when they are no longer hardy enough to work they can retire in peace.

Unfortunately, Kerry explained nothing in his campaign, and that made all the difference.

by Avedon on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 10:55:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Labor rights and the DNC race (none / 0)

why is it that Roemer's position on reproductive rights has become an issue in the race for DNC chair, but no one's position on labor rights has become an issue?

Chris -

It's because --- based purely on rhetoric and not reality --- all the DNC Chair candidates take an ostensibly pro-labor stance. Has anyone heard them say anything that could even be remotely construed as "anti-labor" (that would be an interesting research project; where's the AFL-CIO on this?).  

Meanwhile, on abortion, there are real fissures within the party, both rhetorically and in reality.

Now you and I both know that the ONLY candidate in the race who is ardently PRO-LABOR is Howard Dean. And in fact, at the DNC Western Regional Caucus that I attended yesterday, he was the ONLY candidate to say ANYTHING about labor, "free" trade and globalization. And he VOLUNTEERED it in the scope of a question about a completely different topic (no one asked him what his position was).

A very loose paraphrase of what Dean said: "We need to be exporting labor unions to the rest of the world, not jobs". In other words, globalizing the rights of workers and not just corporations.

by Fiat Lux on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 05:02:10 AM EST

Re: Labor rights and the DNC race (none / 0)

By the way... you could have heard a pin drop after Dean's critique of "free" trade. It wasn't just the content --- it was the passion in which he delivered it.

You can tell that Dean really "gets it," whereas the other candidates mouth platitudes about outsourcing, etc., without drawing a direct connection to the source of the problem --- a corporate-controlled international trade system.

Unfortunately, provided an opening by Dean's testicular fortitude on trade, the rest of the DNC candidates instead remained silent.

Maybe someone can bring this up at the NYC caucus this Saturday?

by Fiat Lux on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 05:13:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Wouldn't.. (none / 0)

Pro NAFTA and GATT be considered inherently anti-labor?

I'm asking because I have seen very little talk about the Free Trade agreements and I personally believe that they are directly impacting the labor in the USA.  Both in terms of union membership, as well as the living wage.

I personally don't support free trade in general.  Maybe on a case by case basis, but Im not very keen on blanket free trade agreements. (Especially with countries that do not have good worker protection / min. wage/ child labor laws)
It seems to me that it hurts the american worker and only helps corporate america.  

Maybe Im wrong, I'd love to hear opinions on this.

by avagias on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 07:03:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Labor's position (none / 0)

That was my sense of it too.  Here's what the AFL-CIO has to say about them:

Regarding NAFTA
http://www.aflcio.org/issuespolitics/manufacturing/trade_policies.cfm

Regarding the WTO and GATT
http://www.aflcio.org/issuespolitics/globaleconomy/whatis.cfm


Another thing that's often overlooked is the environmental issues with these treaties.  See: http://www.sierraclub.org/trade/environment/
by Horq on Tue Jan 25, 2005 at 03:59:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Pro-Labor or Pro-Union (3.00 / 2)

The reason that labor laws have fallen by the wayside is that there's an innate difference between being pro-labor and pro-union. The Democratic has no  hope if it opposes the worker protections that were earned over decades. It can survive however without ultra powerful unions. The reason is simple, white collar jobs pay more, necessitating less need to negotiate over wages.

Now the last fifteen years saw this carried out to the extreme. Now you have union shop electricians landscapers and the like undercut by illegal aliens who are not qualified but will do the job for 25% of what union set wages are. Accountants who balk at bad conditions find their job sent to India. And while lawyers are safe for now, even that is going to change.

The priority of the Democratic Party should not be concerned with who are unionized, who aren't etc. It should be considered with fair and humane labor standards period. This is what guys like Al From don't get at the DLC: campaigning for workers in America is all for naught if we do not demand more out of trading partners like China and Mexico. Further, international trade is important in creating peace and stability in the world, but we can't allow the debate to be "Free trade" versus "fair trade"....we can ONLY allow "free and fair" trade.

So yes, if Dean is either DNC or running for President in '08 there is light at the end of the tunnel. But the growing demographic shift also portends that for scab wage payers like Walmart an inevitable day of reckoning, close at hand.

by risenmessiah on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 05:38:24 AM EST

Re: Pro-Labor or Pro-Union (none / 0)

he reason is simple, white collar jobs pay more, necessitating less need to negotiate over wages.

Hmmm. Interesting logic. Can you explain then why median real wages have fallen steadily since the early 1970s? I wonder if that decline in wages has anything to do with the decline of labor unions...

The priority of the Democratic Party should not be concerned with who are unionized, who aren't etc. It should be considered with fair and humane labor standards period.

I agree with your second point here, but completely disagree with the first. How do you propose raising the standard of living for the millions of folks who work at Walmart, or really any of the big rertail or food chains, who are the largest group of workers in this nation? What do you see happening, after that day of reckoning, if it is not the organizing and collectivizing of service labor?

Minister Al-X: Proselytizing for Reality.
by Reverend AlX on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 09:58:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pro-Labor or Pro-Union (none / 0)

The reason the real wage has not rose in so long is simple: immigration. Population growth itself is cyclical. However, at the point in which the population of the US (of the working age) should have been declining c. 1995... it actually increased because of our "liberal" immigration policies.

But you are confusing cause and effect: In the 1950s, services were highly unionized. This includes everything from higher education to UPS to air service to acting to nurses. But as these jobs were more remunerative than say working at Wal-mart, the Baby Boomers believed they could be "free riders" enjoying union labor protection without paying the dues. Unfortunately as the "Greatest Generation" retires, the unions shrink. Additionally, now there is non-union competition (who used higher wages initially to lure people away!) combined with a middle class that often gravitated to jobs where unions never existed: real estate, insurance...The rise in the real wage preceeding it's stagnation over the last 30 years is the trigger in union membership declining...not vice versa.

What's the day of reckoning? 50% of the American workface saying "C-YA". Wage pressure always increases when employers have to compete with each other over the same people. Right now there's a suprlus of labor...soon there will be a shortage. What Dems have to do is not polarize union workers and non union workers. We have to stand up for labor standards for all people EQUALLY. From the grocery clerks to the multimillionaire NBA players. The more divided and self-conflicted the working class of America is, they more they vote Republican.

by risenmessiah on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 11:44:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pro-Labor or Pro-Union (none / 0)

But you are confusing cause and effect
Interesting, in that I didn't say that the decline in labor unions CAUSED the decline in real wages, but rather I questioned whether it might have something to do with it. You, on the other hand, seem to ahve no doubt that immigration is the cause. Let me be the first to snicker at such a statement.

Does immigration have anything to do with the decline? Sure. But where in your "simple" explanation does productivity, the pushing back of pro-labor laws, the full integration of women in the work force, and the dissapearence of the biggest source of labor work, manufacturing, come into play. That explanation was simple, and simply wrong.

The rise in the real wage preceeding it's stagnation over the last 30 years is the trigger in union membership declining...not vice versa

Wow, nice statements, which you have no possible way of proving true.

What Dems have to do is not polarize union workers and non union workers. We have to stand up for labor standards for all people EQUALLY

I agree, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't be fighting strongly for Union rights. Are there problems with Unions, you bet your ass there are. Is having collective bargaining capabilities esential to having a strong working class in the face of (enourmously powerful) capital, you bet your ass it is.

Right now there's a suprlus of labor...soon there will be a shortage.

when is this happening? When the third world suddenly stops making workers who will work for 1/100th of what Americans do?

This freemarket ideology is one thing the Dems need to start purging from the party, and if we did we'd win over the "Lou Dobbs" Republicans, who are mad as hell about the state of the economy, but who see teh Dems selling out the working class of this country to some ivory-tower ideal that couldn't stand further from reality.

Minister Al-X: Proselytizing for Reality.
by Reverend AlX on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 12:53:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pro-Labor or Pro-Union (none / 0)

If you want to be successful then you need to unionize the 3rd world.  Thats where traditional unions will make the biggest difference anyway.

Traditional unions make the biggest difference when there is a surplus in labor which capital is exploiting due to market value being below basic living conditions.

by donkeykong on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 01:30:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pro-Labor or Pro-Union (3.00 / 1)

According to George Borjas of Harvard, illegal immigration depresses wages to the tune of $190 billion a year.

Here's a standard "liberal" response to illegal immigration: give illegal aliens driver's licenses. Of course, there's a wee bit of a selfish motive here: these Hollywood "stars" want their nannies to be able to drive. And, they want everyone else to pay all the attendant costs. Otherwise, they might have to spend a few extra dollars and hire a citizen or legal worker.

by TheLonewackoBlog on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 06:42:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Here's what I would do if I ruled the country (none / 0)

And I mean if I had total control of both congress and the presidency.  I would do a mass round up of illegals and fortify the border-but double, triple, mulitply by ten the number of legal immigrants allowed from countries such as Mexico-but to apply, you would have to go your embassy in your home country.  I would eliminate most or all guest worker programs, H1B's, etc., too.  That is, I would give immigrants a fair chance in coming to America-but those who won't plan on playing by the rules and/or have no intention on staying in America permanently get to go to the back of the line and let people who are willing to play by the rules and become Americans in front.  Carrot, stick.
by Geotpf on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 07:17:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here's what I would do if I ruled the country (none / 0)

A mass round-up is not necessary. Asa Hutchinson, who resigned today after twice being passed over for head of the DHS, was sent out a few months ago to tell us that  "Rounding up all illegals 'not realistic'". In his case, such a mass round-up was a strawman.

What's needed is enforcing the laws against employing illegal aliens and enforcing or passing laws against driver's licenses and other public benefits for illegals.

Would a major chicken processor try to incorporate rat meat into its extruded chicken products? Would a major retailer try to sell year-old milk? No, because they'd get heavy fines and perhaps be driven out of business or face criminal prosecution. If hiring illegals were considered like that, the problem would be greatly reduced.

As for increasing the number of legal immigrants from Mexico, there's very little reason to give them a break over other countries and there are significant downsides. On request I could provide several links, but suffice it to say that Mexico has a certain degree of control over our immigration policies, they want more control because it means more money for them and maybe even the possibility of regaining their "lost territories", and many "American" politicians are more than willing to help them in part due to ethnic issues and in part due to money.

by TheLonewackoBlog on Tue Jan 25, 2005 at 12:20:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pro-Labor or Pro-Union (none / 0)

Oh Reverend, I don't think we disagree...but I'll answer you as best I can.

You asked, "why has not the real wage increased since 1970s?" I only said that wage cycles are generally cyclical because of population trends. Immigration has ensured (not illegal immigration by the way...just immigration period) has put off the date in which the labor market will contract by some ten to fifteen years.

But I assure that immigration to the US is not so plentiful that the bullet can be dodged by those paying wages. In fact, the whole reason the big GOP donors refuse to crack down on immigration today is that they are desperately worried in the future that laborers will be so scarce that even the security guard in the mall will need to be paid $18 a hour with sick time, full medical and dental.

Understand that's the reason that Cheney loves parroting, "there used to be forty workers for each Social Security recipient now soon it will be two to one". In corporate HR terms, that means you will have a whole generation of workers now in their 20s who will become free agents so to speak in 2010...able to command market price. Bidding wars will be fierce. And the poor migrant who mows your lawn can't exactly be VP of marketing at Amgen.

Nevertheless, I never said we have to back away from making sure that unions are part of the future. What I said was do not punish industries or individuals who want to stay unorganized. I mean, I assume you fly Southwest at least occasionally. I assume you buy something at Walmart or Sam's Club from time to time. Hence my point is the Party needs to make clear we want to enrich the lives of all workers....not just simply return the clout of unions.

And this is not to diminish your previous post; I just hope you understand that given the limitations of the message board I try to speak as directly as possible. Otherwise, I'm happy to debate you on labor economics all day and night. But I hope that I have at least clarified things for you.

 

by risenmessiah on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 10:56:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pro-Labor or Pro-Union (none / 0)

Much clearer. I still think that the future which you speak of is an illusion, but you're entitled to your faith.

And if the labor market is generally cyclical than when does the increase of real wages begin? If wages are going to make this huge leap I guess they'll have to start going up at some point, or at least stop going down (for longer than 3 Clinton years). Not that I think that the market isn't cyclical, it is, but it's been spiriling downward for the past 30 years or so, my question is: how do you think this will stop? and why?

Minister Al-X: Proselytizing for Reality.
by Reverend AlX on Tue Jan 25, 2005 at 09:40:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pro-Labor or Pro-Union (none / 0)

The reason that wages have stagnated and fallen is the fact that the manufactoring sector has gone overseas.  Those wages afforded a middle class life for workers.

Unfair trade has done more to damage wages than immigration.

The only affect immigration has had an effect on has been the fact that employers are exploiting their labor illegally.  And Bush wants to make sure that these people stay under the boot of his corporate cronies.

by unionmark on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 05:53:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Thank you Chris for a reminder of what grassroots (none / 0)

can mean.  I caught your post at dkos and it truly struck a nerve.  A crosspost:

When I was working my way through college here in California I worked in a restaurant to support myself.  One of the things that really helped was the health insurance I had because I worked in a union house (that and the free food!).  One of the reasons I'm a Democrat was that experience with what a difference a union can make in the lives of ordinary workers.

Since then I've prospered to the point where I'm in management and have my insurance needs covered by the company.  I'm ashamed to say that until I read your post I'd not thought of my union roots in years.  Thank you for the reminder of one of the most basic pillars of progressive democracy-unionization.

Since the end of the Cold War, unions, which, IMHO were tolerated by the right as being a compromise which headed off more radical communism, have been in decline.  

Progressive ideals will get us nowhere without the bread and butter support of labor unions:  people who through practical experience understand the validity of those ideals.  

Too many workers with no union experience lack even the vocabulary to understand progressive stances on minimum wage, on pensions and social security, on healthcare.  Without that vocabulary they are subject to the tribalist arguments of hate and fear propounded by the Reaganist Repugs.

Chris's frustration is well-placed:  Democrats especially ignore the concerns of labor at their extreme peril.  Thank you Chris for the reminder.

CaliBlogger.com

by CaliBlogger on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 05:56:40 AM EST

Things like social security were... (none / 0)

...considered compromises to head off communism, too.  Gee, I wonder why SS is being attacked?
by Geotpf on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 07:26:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Chris, one question for you (none / 0)

How can you make such an eloquent post when you are either drunk or coming down from being drunk?  I, on the other hand, was sober because I live in Germantown and couldn't get up to my normal spot in Mt. Airy to throw down because of the snow.

Well, hope to see you at the next meetup.

Fly, Eagles, fly.

by charlesdog12 on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 06:03:01 AM EST

The root of the matter (none / 0)

Further, the massive decline in union membership is directly tied to the massive decline in the Democratic Party, especially at the grassroots level.

I think your analysis of causation is somewhat lacking here.  It is true that union membership has declined and that Democratic Party affiliation has also declined.  It is also true that church-going attendance has declined.  These are all related.

You mention "middle-class liberalism."  Well, here is what middle-class liberalism is.  It's an emphasis on those things that appeal most to individuals; abortion and the like are the issues most interesting to hedonistic, self-centered types.  Union, party, church, neighborhood: these are group entities and middle-class liberalism doesn't do much to foster the idea that these or any other group are meaningful.

Which is why I advocate a de-emphasis of civil liberties in favor of a re-emphasis on economic issues.  This is not to say that civil liberties are unimportant or that standard progressive stances need to change cataclysmically; this is to say that we need to emphasize more issues which are group-oriented and which help build a left-of-center group identity.  It is also a pragmatic understanding that we are a minority party and that we can't advance an agenda; given limited resources, it is more important to protect economic issues (like Social Security) even if it means giving ground on civil liberties issuse (like abortion).

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both
by Anthony de Jesus on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 08:32:27 AM EST

The white collar middle class is dying. (3.00 / 1)

Even if you are only thinking tactically, having the party rely on the politics of the white collar middle class is a major tactical error because the white collar middle class is disappearing. The white collar middle class is disappearing because of pro-corporate policy in this country. The labor movement was one of the primary means of lifting blue collar workers out of poverty into the middle class. Non-blue collar middle class workers have never had any significant form of structured advocacy. That has to change. Look at the abuses of programmers at EA Sports. Computer terminals may not be the threat to human health that the old coal mines or textile mills were, but is EA Sports any less of a sweat shop than the old textile mills were? Of course not. Programmers aren't going to be a middle class occupation within a couple of years. Retail workers are no different. Long hours, lousy pay, and no benefits all allowed to happen because people have bought into exploiting millions of people to get their Levis a puck a pair cheaper. Same for fast food restaurants. The reason all that fast food is so cheap is because the fast food industry has gotten away with exploiting human labor in a human labor intensive industry - food preparation.

We need to re-apply our basic principles and beliefs to the act of work in our society. We have to fight the good fight for the right of people to earn a good standard of living for working hard and playing by the rules. We have to fight the good fight for the principle that the right to profit should not be more important that the right for workers to earn sufficient wages to meet their basic needs. We have also have to change laws that force CEOs to only consider short term corporate profits when making corporate policy, and protect CEOs from investor lawsuits for treating workers reasonably and equitably.

by afs on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 12:08:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The white collar middle class is dying. (none / 0)

I agree with the need for advocacy but programmers are no where near as enslaved as coal workers were.
by donkeykong on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 01:37:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Where did I say differently? (none / 0)

I said, "...Computer terminals may not be the threat to human health that the old coal mines or textile mills were..."

You need to work on reading all of what is written.

by afs on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 02:18:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

excellent point (none / 0)

i'm coming late to this thread, but i'm going to have to repeat something i wrote when there was an outsourcing diary on dkos a while back.  it's relevant to the point you made here, afs.

i'm in IT, and i realise that my job is absolutely in danger of being exported.  i'll be lucky to survive 2-3 more years in the industry with my skillset and pay grade.

for years, my (mostly white, mostly overeducated, mostly high paid) co-workers would argue with me, saying we don't need unions; nobody works in sweatshops anymore.  we got our insurance bennies and our 401ks.  that was in the late 90s.

now here we are and my what a different world this is.  those co-workers now bitch because we're salaried and sometimes work up to 80 hours per week without getting paid for it.  our raises have stagnated and are barely keeping up with COL increases.  our health insurance keeps getting more and more expensive... i could go on for days.

and now... NOW they wanna talk about unionising.  yea, right!

assholes.  it's too late to save our jobs - they're already on the way out.

/rant off

Visit us at TexasKAOS, where we're taking Texas back!
by annatopia on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 04:51:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Trying a second time (none / 0)

because I deleted the last one.

Chris, first -- didn't you know before today that Fast Eddie sometimes provides Iggles commentary? I'd be surprised if you didn't, political junkie that you are.

Second, I agree with you thorougly on labor issues, and their relative importance relative to other leftie sacred cows. Truth be told, if I had to make a list of five issues that could cause me, under theoretical circumstances, to fight in the street, I'm pretty certain that abortion would not be one of them. I'm not sure that card check would be one either, but the litmus test business has its drawbacks. (That said, didn't Bill Clinton make a huge deal out of the fact that Roe v Wade WOULD be a litmus test for him? And didn't he win? What has changed so much since 1992 and 1996? Why did Kerry have to weasel about this issue with "I can't enforce my own beliefs on you?" What an ass.)

Third, your line about "after a long and inconclusive game of cards" is an absolute piece of literature. I'm going to plagiariaze it and make a lot of money and not share any of it with you.

Fourth, I live in Taiwan at the moment. Right before I left the States -- Philly to be precise --  I was able to attend one DFA meeting. This would have been Augustish 2003. I remember someone standing up and proposing that if we Deaniacs made Delaware our pet project, we might be able to win it singlehandedly for Howard. Might that have been you? I associate the person talking with the pictures I've seen of you since...

by Dog of the South on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 08:41:06 AM EST

Amen! (3.00 / 1)

Great post! This is something that drives me crazy. I particularly hate the "we need another Clinton" crowd in the Democratic party. NAFTA and other recent trade agreements were stabs in the back of the working class in America and all over the world and it is about fucking time the supposed party of the working class did something about it.

Free trade helps no one but corporate executives. Congressman Sherrod Brown recently talked at my library (he has new book out "Myths of Free Trade") about going to Mexico where workers living a few miles from the US border (the most toxic place in the western hemisphere btw) live in shacks and cardboard boxes.

He said you can tell where the people work because the boxes are from the packing materials of the corporations they work for. Companies like G.E. and General Motors. He said that NAFTA has hurt Mexico more than the U.S. if you can believe it.

The "free" trade agreements were sold as a way for U.S. companies to get access to foreign customers when actually they were a way to get access to foreign labor. What is a worker who gets paid $.35 a day going to buy?

A famous Chinese dissident who was in Washington to lobby against the trade agreement with China said the vanguard of support for Chinese communism consists of American CEO's. When the recent China trade agreement was up for a vote there were more corporate jets in Washington D.C. than anyone had ever seen before.

by Atrain on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 09:19:47 AM EST

Re: Amen! (none / 0)

Free trade helps no one but corporate executives. Congressman Sherrod Brown recently talked at my library (he has new book out "Myths of Free Trade") about going to Mexico where workers living a few miles from the US border (the most toxic place in the western hemisphere btw) live in shacks and cardboard boxes.

He said you can tell where the people work because the boxes are from the packing materials of the corporations they work for. Companies like G.E. and General Motors. He said that NAFTA has hurt Mexico more than the U.S. if you can believe it.

Actually I just got back from a month long trip to Mexico, Belize and Guatemala and people living in shacks and cardboard boxes is the rule, not the exception.  The people living in the border towns and northern Mexico in general are doing worlds better than the people living in the Yucatan and Chiapas in southern Mexico, and most folks in Guatemala can only dream about such a life.

The "free" trade agreements were sold as a way for U.S. companies to get access to foreign customers when actually they were a way to get access to foreign labor. What is a worker who gets paid $.35 a day going to buy?

That's about the same wage a farmer makes in southern Mexico when he has his own land, about 4 pesos a day.  And with farmland selling at 100$us/acre it doesn't take that much money to make a life for yourself and your family there.  Consider this, at 100$us/acre it would take about 300 days of labor to buy an acre of land.  Compare that to the wage you're making and how long it would take to pay cash for an acre of land where YOU live.

by Purple Foxglove on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 09:42:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Amen! (none / 0)

The fact that we are better off relative to Mexicans does nothing to discredit the FACT that workers in both the US and Mexico have lost out big time because of NAFTA...
Minister Al-X: Proselytizing for Reality.
by Reverend AlX on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 09:52:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Amen! (none / 0)

How do you figure that workers in Mexico have lost out?

Free trade brings the economy of scale to bear on the world and brings more prosperity due to a more efficient manufacturing of products.

The local pain in USA is offset by massive prosperity in China, India and Mexico.

The global gain for labor is big.  The local loss in USA may also be big.

But lets talk about the reality.

by donkeykong on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 01:41:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Amen! (none / 0)

I doubt you really want to talk about reality, since I can easliy sense the ideaology which has shadded your vision.

Here's one study(from Common Dreams), but there's lots more data out there to help shatter your illusions, if you could take off the free market glasses and take a cold hard look at the race-to-the-bottom that is the "free market".

MEXICO CITY - Canadian, American and Mexican workers have lost jobs and seen their spending power erode under a free-trade deal that was promoted as ``win-win-win'' for workers in all three countries, a new economic report says.

``From the point of view of North American working people, NAFTA has thus far largely failed,'' notes the three-country study examining jobs, wages and labour standards after seven years of the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA).

The report, to be released today, is authored by economic institutes that focus on labour issues: the Centre for Policy Alternatives in Canada, the Economic Policy Institute in the United States and the Mexican Institute of Labour Studies and Investigation.


Minister Al-X: Proselytizing for Reality.
by Reverend AlX on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 02:39:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Okay (none / 0)

What were these Mexicans doing for work before NAFTA?

When free trade agreements occur, what LOGICALLY happens is the two economies balance.  That is, the poorer economy gets richer, but the richer economy probably gets poorer.  The net result is probably a higher average standard of living overall, but a lower one in the richer country (which means the US, whether the poorer country is Mexico or China or wherever).

by Geotpf on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 02:48:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Okay (3.00 / 1)

When free trade agreements occur, what LOGICALLY happens is the two economies balance.

Too bad that the free market isn't logical. And neither are you free markey ideolouges, no matter how you like to view yourself. Human beings are not rational, and neither are the institutions which our irrational minds create. Rational choice theory should have been swept away with the tides of WWII, but somehow what is obvious;y ridiculous in psychology is held as the standard of human behavior in economics.

This is a good explanation, from Soros (via Frontline), of why the theory of "equilibrium" is nonsense, at least in the monetary markets, but I would say that the same goes for all markets.

I put forward a pretty general theory that financial markets are intrinsically unstable. That we really have a false picture when we think about markets tending towards equilibrium. Equilibrium is appropriate when a market deals with known quantities. But in financial markets, you deal with unknown quantities. You're trying to discount the future. But the future depends on how you discount it today. It's not something fixed, so your discounting can't correspond to the future.

Now, there is the prevailing theory which holds that financial markets should be regarded as if they were in continuous equilibrium. I think that is actually a false image. Because, in effect, they are in continuous disequilibrium. Therefore, they are given to going to excesses in one direction or another. You can have a boom and a bust. Now, in practice, we have learned that that's the case. Through experience, we have evolved a system of central banking that prevents these excesses from going too far. Controlling the money supply, dampening the boom so that you don't get a bust. Then stimulating the economy [that] is in decline. You have various regulatory authorities and so on

The net result is probably a higher average standard of living overall, but a lower one in the richer country

Unfortunately, the result is usually that the rich in the rich country get richer and the rest are left behind. Don't forget, the workers in the third world are not only competing with our workers, they are competing with each other. The race-to-the-bottom is on, and how far the workers of the world will fall is anybody's guess.

Minister Al-X: Proselytizing for Reality.
by Reverend AlX on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 03:02:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Okay (none / 0)

When there is surplus labor and no multi-national coordinated attempts to develop economies, the LOGICAL outcome is a cut throat race to the bottom where both economies decline. China and India have the labor capacity to absorb every exportable job in both the US and Eurpoe and still have surplus millions unemployed.

If you had read "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man" by John Perkins you would not be nursing those free-market illusions about how multi-national economics are actually viewed by those with the power to make things happen.

As Dean says we need to develop a supportive multi-national environment for labor, but at the moment we are a long way off from that goal.

by leschwartz on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 03:12:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hmmm... (none / 0)

Okay, on average, who makes more and has a higher standard of living?  A subsistence farmer, or a factory employee in a country newly opened up to global trade?  Because, in many/most developing nations, the latter were once the former.
by Geotpf on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 07:30:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Amen! (none / 0)

Generally speaking, free trade is a good thing and is beneficial to the majority of people in both countries. The Common Market, now the European Union, is a great example of free trade done right. Once poor Spain, Portugal, and Ireland are now quite prosperous.

However, many free trade agreements are setup not so that they benefit the people in each country, but multinational corporations. Free trade has become a way for multinational corporations to dominate the markets of the poorer countries while using these same countries to circumvent the labor and environmental laws of the more developed nations.

Let's see NAFTA in action.

  1. Big Agribusiness gets billions in U.S. taxpayer subsidies which allows them to sell their corn essentially below cost.

  2. Because of NAFTA, Mexico will import the corn without restrictions.

  3. Mexican farmers will no longer be able to sell their corn. Many will be driven off the land.

  4. Desperate farmers will take any job at any condition so they can afford to eat. Less than $1.00/hr with few worker rights is better than starving.

  5. Because of the high unemployment, Mexico will encourage foreign companies to invest. They will hope companies choose Mexico, so they make sure labor and environmental laws are friendly to business.

  6. Multinational corporations like pennies per hour better than union wages with benefits and overtime. The factory moves to Mexico.

  7. Goods pass duty-free back to the U.S. The U.S. cannot stop the imports.

The sad thing is that NAFTA is a lot better than some of the other trade agreements out there, especially many of the deals with China. At least the currency exchange is fair with Mexico.

It's called the "race to the bottom". Working people not only in America, but worldwide, are the losers.

by wayward on Tue Jan 25, 2005 at 12:00:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Hope MyDd does more Labor New and Diaries (3.00 / 1)

Dem Netroots need to get to know more of Labor.

Some Links to Labor Unions

AFL-CIO http://www.aflcio.org/
SEIU  http://www.seiu.org/

labor union directory  http://www.iir.berkeley.edu/library/webguides/unionsgd.html

by jasmine on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 09:26:05 AM EST

Re: Hope MyDd does more Labor New and Diaries (none / 0)

Another good site is www.biglabor.org and www.unitetowin.org
by unionmark on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 05:54:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hope MyDd does more Labor New and Diaries (none / 0)

SEIU is trying really hard to reach out to non-labor folks with Purple Ocean and a new anti-Walmart campaign. Show your support for labor and help spread the real facts about WalMart at the same time.  Sign up here so I can watch my network grow and help me earn $1000 towards a fund for health insurance for WalMart workers.
by justpowers on Tue Jan 25, 2005 at 12:56:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

How about Pro-Choice and Labor-Agnostic? (none / 0)

Pro-choice/Pro-life is an issue I care about. Labor issues I don't really care about or pay attention to. I never lived or worked in any region or occupational field where organized labor was particularly active. So it's not really an issue that I care too much about. I'm in IT -- government white collar field.

We all have issues we prioritize one way or another. Whichever candidate most agrees with yours, you should support IMO.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 09:31:28 AM EST

Forgot to mention... (none / 0)

I was in the military and I'm a veteran. We may have been organized but that's a rigid socialist-style organizational structure where we had less rights than the average citizen and virtually no self-determination.

But I did something about that. I finished my degree, left the military, and got me a cushy government job. I suggest anyone in labor do the same if they don't like what they are doing.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 09:37:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How about Pro-Choice and Labor-Agnostic? (none / 0)

Guess I understand why you're with Hillary. And hey, you don't think your Gov't IT job is in jeapordy? You're fooling yourself. There will always be a good amount of IT jobs out there, but if you eliminate the jobs that can be outsourced (programing, design, etc) than it puts preassure on all of us (I'm in IT too).

I feel like agnostic-labor folks can go and join up with the Thugs, cause this is the party of the middle and lower classes, those folks who have to work every day to put food on the table. If you're not with us, then you are most defenitely against us.

It's up to you, but I for one can accept anti-choice candidates but cannot, for even a milisecond, stand those who stand in the way of (or do nothing to help support) our rights as workers.

Minister Al-X: Proselytizing for Reality.
by Reverend AlX on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 09:48:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Well, it's not your choice is it? (none / 0)

"Accept" labor-agnostic folks? I'm sorry, but that's not your choice. The great thing about a free country is I can vote for whomever I see fit. I'm also a registered independent so party-affiliation is not something I believe in. I vote on issues, not down party lines.

I have a suggestion. If you far-left fundamentalist liberals have such a problem with moderate dems, conservative dems, centrists, or socially liberal republicans, why don't you secede from the democratic party and create your new grassroots-only democratic party instead?

I think I know why. Without the moderates and centrists who vote for mostly democratic candidates and/or oppose the right wing, you wouldn't have a chance in winning a national election.

So spare me the "with us or against us" rhetoric. You sound just like Chimpy.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Tue Jan 25, 2005 at 12:19:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Well, it's not your choice is it? (none / 0)

I'm talking about my job, and my families job, so pardon me if I say piss off if you're not pro labor.  There's room for the rich and the wanna be rich in this party, but just as fudnraisers. If you want a pro-wealth party, the thugs are waiting. This party is the party of the working man and woman, which is why it's good that you're not in it. Vote for whatever you want, but run a Dem again who is labor-agnostic and we'll lose again.

And I am no "fundementalist" anything, I just want someone to stand up for me, and the majority of Americans who are in my class. If you're not standing with me as I demand that labor have a large voice in this country, then aren't you against me?

Yeah, "vote hillary", and vote against your job.

Minister Al-X: Proselytizing for Reality.
by Reverend AlX on Tue Jan 25, 2005 at 09:17:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How about Pro-Choice and Labor-Agnostic? (none / 0)

And...
But I did something about that. I finished my degree, left the military, and got me a cushy government job. I suggest anyone in labor do the same if they don't like what they are doing.

I assume that you can already see the ridiculousness of what you just said. How many cushy Gov't jobs are there? How many working class people are there? We all can't work for the Gov't, but we all need to work.

Minister Al-X: Proselytizing for Reality.
by Reverend AlX on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 09:50:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

That's a given. (none / 0)

But this is a free country and you have the self-determination to choose your way in life. No one is born a laborer like a peasant farmer in feudal times. If you work hard enough and don't give up, virtually anything is possible.

I have little sympathy for people who hate what they do, complain about it, and ultimately do nothing about it. Things don't improve -- I wonder why? I knew far too many people like that in the military. 95% of enlisted troops never use their college benefits. But they still find time to complain about the work, the lack of self-determination, the deployments, officers getting paid more, long hours, etc.

I finished my college degree working a flightline job on aircraft weapon systems, unknown shifts weekly, 60+ hour weeks were the norm, weekend duties, naturally no overtime comp in the service, unexpected deployments, constant military exercises, etc. How did I manage? I made sacrifices. I chose school over a social life. When others were enjoying themselves I was doing homework. I finished a four year degree in just under three with a high GPA that qualified me for the federal outstanding scholarship program that prioritizes my application over others for all federal jobs. I'm also a veteran so that's another special qualifier above peers. I also have secret security clearance which is gold in this post 9/11 era.

Check the federal job listing websites. Every day there are 13k to 18k jobs open in federal government. Not even including state jobs. There are plenty of opportunities out there if you're willing to go for them. Will you have to do the hard work? Yes. Will it take years of dedication? Yes. But it pays off in the end.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Tue Jan 25, 2005 at 12:35:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's a given. (none / 0)

But this is a free country and you have the self-determination to choose your way in life. No one is born a laborer like a peasant farmer in feudal times. If you work hard enough and don't give up, virtually anything is possible.

Now who is the fundementalist?

Just because something is possible doesn't make it likely, which is why there is very little upward mobility in US society anymore (actually we're going the opposite direction).

I have little sympathy for people who hate what they do, complain about it, and ultimately do nothing about it.

Me neither. I have  even less sympathy, or patience, for those who stand in the way of me doing it.

That said, I admire the work which you posted above, and would you believe I also am in a cushy IT job (granted at a school, but still...), which I actually hate because I can't work as hard as I'd like towards the things whcih I am passionate about(but which I figured out on my own and worked my ass off to get to). My point is that the preassure of the market will eventually be felt everywhere, even in our cushy jobs, and so we better start fighting for our brothers and sisters working at McDonalds and Wal Mart, before we find ourselves working 60+ hours a week for jack shit and no benefits. Nobody in the working class is secure, not you, not me, not any worker out there.

Your feeling of security now does not garuntee your security in the future...

Minister Al-X: Proselytizing for Reality.
by Reverend AlX on Tue Jan 25, 2005 at 09:25:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How about Pro-Choice and Labor-Agnostic? (none / 0)

I'm in IT -- government white collar field.

Guess whose taxes pay your salary.

by Atrain on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 10:08:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Somehow I'm less than sympathetic. (none / 0)

Considering I served my time in the military, sacrificed my personal rights for those of others but subjecting myself to more restrictions, and helped liberate a country (not Iraq). All of which is more than I can say for most people in this country.

Examine your logic as well. You think government employees don't pay taxes? How about military servicemen for that matter? So let's see, apparently we were paying ourselves the whole time.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/
by Vote Hillary 2008 on Tue Jan 25, 2005 at 12:42:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

WTF?!?!?! (none / 0)

The Patriots are going down and, even if they aren't (OK, they probably aren't), this is going to be one happy city for the next two weeks.

It's exactlly this kind of self doubt that kills us liberals each and every time. Buck up, eliminate doubt and move forward. This one is ours! NOW BEEEEELLIIIEEEEVE IT!

And you never seen Rendell on the Sunday post-game before? He's there every week...

Either way, those endorphins poppin up there in your noggin have led you to the best question you've asked since I've browsed through this site. We have to make labor and unionization the center of everything we do. It is the one thread that ties together folks from Alabama, Minnesota, Pennsylvania, California, and the rest.

Plus, let's be honest, how many of us are really that secure in our middle-income jobs? We are working class, so why don't we fight like hell to protect what we've got and shore up the jobs of our friends and family? Is there anything worth fighting for more than the ability to put food on the table and a roof over our heads without working like a slave?

Anyway, great rant, hopefully the rant your write after the Eagles win in two weeks, which they will, will be even better!

Minister Al-X: Proselytizing for Reality.
by Reverend AlX on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 09:45:28 AM EST

Why are you a liberal? (none / 0)

Just ranting here as well...spent way too much time ignoring the game and sledding down the Art Museum steps. I'm sore all over.

A few points:

-- Grover Norquist holds meetings every week to get big business and Christian funddies to work together. I don't see why we can't do the same.

-- If we saw more of "our issues" through the glasses of economic equality, we'd see that choice, racism, gay rights, women's rights, war and environmental degradation all are tied together.

-- Which brings me to my last point -- we need a liberal story that brings all of these together -- a story that goes straight to the gut and far beyond a liberal education and upbringing. How many times have I heard the sentiment if not exactly the phrase -- "I'm liberal -- I'm smarter and better educated than conservatives." This makes my stomach turn.

So I ask:

Why are you a liberal? What's your personal story? Here's part of mine:

I'm a liberal because my parents barely made ends meet on income from managing a retail store. When times were tough, my baby-sitting money went to paying the  water bill. When I became a senior analyst at a retail chain store, I was keenly interested to know how much more we could pay our store associates without going under. The answer: significantly more. But Wall Street will fire any exec who would dare do that.

by AnneinPhilly on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 09:55:07 AM EST

Re: Why are you a liberal? (none / 0)

Ann,

I'm sorry for snapping at you a couple of days ago. I'll send you the script soon.

I'll start a post on this as well. I'd like to talk about it.

by Chris Bowers on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 01:27:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

unions self-destruct (2.66 / 3)


First of all, don't take this as an anti-labor post.  I am very pro-union.  However, I want to point out that a lot of labor's problems are self-inflicted.

My first contact with a union was when I was a master's st