1984: Will History Repeat Itself?

It is hard to deny the similarities between this election and that of 1984 between Ronald Reagan and Walter Mondale. The stark ideological differences the two candidates have has not been more clear for American voters since that election. Bush and Reagan, the rugged individualist types from ranches in the south or Kerry and Mondale metro-sexual type lawyers/senators from the north.
<img src="/files/user/1098/1984.gif">

Now as in 1984 our country faces a real threat and as in 1984 the democratic presidential nominee charges the Republican nominee lives in fairy tale world. The always-underestimated Reagan always believed we would win the cold war and Mondale's solution was today's equivalent of weapons inspections.

One of Modale's biggest targets was the "star wars project," citing expense, excelling the arms war and most of all the notion that it was even possible. It is only fitting that President Bush will soon declare operational capability of a strategic missile defense system first brought to the national debate by President Reagan.

Both Mondale and Kerry are running on raising taxes to fix the problems in America. Both men railed against defense spending and the raising national debt. Americans for Democratic Action, which ranks senators by how the Senators votes align with their left leaning organization, gave Kerry a 92 rating and Mondale a 90 rating. They are peas of the same pod.

In both elections the Republican candidate's theories on the economy have been mocked by their opponents as simple-minded fantasies. From simplifying the tax code, privatizing social security, open enrollment at our schools, medical savings accounts, encouraging charitable organizations to take the burden off the government, I could go on, President Bush follows the same "simplistic" vision that capitalism when allowed to function yields the best results. Just like "Reaganomics" was ridiculed by the Democrats of the 80's so too does John Kerry mock Bushes ideas. I think these ideas are what our country is founded on.

Ronald Reagan was said to have polarized the nation back in the 1980's and only after his term did his popularity rise. Hard presidential choices are defined by the negative reaction of the public. A choice the entire nation is behind is not a difficult one. Reagan fought and won the "unbeatable" cold war has he promised he would. We can only hope President Bush's policies will win out in the end as well.

Whether or not you buy the connection between these two elections as I see it, I would argue that the results will be the same. 1984 final electoral count 525 - 13 Reagan with just DC and Mondale's home state of Minnesota going democrat. Hopefully this time the Democratic Party will listen to the will of the people and adopt policies more inline with the ideals this country was founded on.

Please don't take my prediction as arrogant or smug, I just want it recorded some where. Flame away.

Poll
Am I over the top?
Yes - You are blinded by stupidity and refuse to see the light.
A little - Your history seems a little foggy
Not sure - I will have to look into more
No - I am afraid of being "Mondaled"
No - I think you are right on

Votes: 62
Results : Vote Link : Polls

Display:


Ummm... (none / 0)

OK, I guess we're all welcome to our opinions, even if I think yours has pretty much nothing to do with reality.

Of course...

  • Bush ain't no Reagan
  • Bush's record at this point can't hold a candle to Reagan's in 1984
  • Kerry is no Mondale
  • The Democratic Party's ideals, according to polls, are far more in line with those of the nation's than are the GOP's
Aside from that trivia, I'd say things are pretty much the same.

Actually, I think 1980 is a lot closer.

by jonweasel on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 02:05:50 AM EST

Re: Ummm... (none / 0)

Kerry does seem a lot like President Jimmy Carter. The 1980 election elector count was 489 Reagan and 49 Carter. Kerry was just a bad choice to represent the Party, thats all. I would aurgue though Bush is following Reagans lead on many issues and his record as I can see it is pretty good. He said he would start the no child left behind program, he said he would help faith-based charities grow, he said he would provide a tax cut, etc. etc. etc. He accomplished alot considering 1. He barely won the election giving him a weak mandate 2. We were attacked. 3. The economy was hurting when he took the Presidency. I should not have attacked the Party, just the leadership. I certainly don't harbour ill will towards the party faithful. We need a strong two party system to keep liberty in balance. Again I just have major disagreements with the policy outlined by Kerry. Utlimately the American people will decide. Thanks for your comments.
by Patrick Henry on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 03:02:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ummm... (none / 0)

The fact that we were attacked is not a loss for Bush; it saved his presidency.  Following the attacks, the "rally around the leader" mentality raised his approval ratings from the low fifties to the low eighties.  If 9/11 hadn't happened, the dominant news story of 2002 would have been the Enron fiasco, which had the potential to seriously hurt Bush and his party -- they'd probably have taken a bath in the midterm election and lost both houses of Congress (just as an example, they couldn't have beaten Max Cleland without the "soft on terror" smear).  It's just the Democrats' luck that Bush chose to waste all the goodwill he'd earned on his ill-conceived imperialist adventure in Iraq.

You misunderstood the 1980 analogy (deliberately?).  In 1980, as in 2004, the U.S. was suffering from a weak economy and a crisis in the Middle East (hostages in Iran then, occupying Iraq now).  Many voters were dissatisfied with the incumbent, but didn't know enough about the challenger to trust him.  In Reagan's case, it was because he was viewed as a dangerous extremist; in Kerry's case, because he's seen as weak and indecisive.  Reagan destroyed that perception in the debates and trounced Carter; Kerry has the opportunity to do the same, and, if his speech in Philadelphia on Friday is any indication of how his rhetoric is going to sound for the remainder of the campaign, will probably do so.  See Will Saletan's article in Slate on this topic.  Saletan is a moderate Republican, incidentally; he voted for Bush in 2000, but has no intention of repeating that mistake.
Later,
Alex

Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama for President! Beat McCain!
by Alex on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 03:45:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ummm... (none / 0)

First of all thanks for the reply - I am happy to have the discourse with partisans of the other side. It seems as if you have two main points: 1. September 11th helped the President 2. Jimmy Carter's foreign and domestic policy was horrible as is Bushes leading to an upset this November.

1. I was referring to President Bushes domestic policy initiatives and his ability to make change in Washington. September 11th hurt this nation economically; the monthly jobs loss peaked in October of 2001(1). It also redirected federal spending. It shifted his priority off of some of his domestic policy.

I do not believe it saved his Presidency; he just is a strong leader when America needs one.

2. We can certainly agree that Jimmy Carter did a poor job in the White House, but I would argue George Bush is no Jimmy Carter. As the President says, or tries to say, "fool me once - shame on you, fool me twice - shame on me." Totalitarian governments around the globe have repeatedly fooled Jimmy Carter. I believe diplomacy is preferred to use of force, but what do you do when dictators sign an agreement then repeatedly break the terms? Jimmy Carter and John Kerry are old school democrats whose policies derive from the left.

Bush like Reagan is painted as a dangerous extremist even though they are more likely than many in their party to work with the politicians on the other side of the isle.

The article you cited was interesting, but seems more like political strategy than talking issues. It could have been labeled "How to Make Kerry Seem Electable." Number 2 was interesting because it spoke directly to the point of my story. People believe Bush is telling the truth from the bottom of his heart, according to the Author though the America people think Bush sees the world through rose colored glasses. It is the same mistake Mondale made in 1984. As we saw in that election people do have the same vision - That democracy and freedom will always win in the end.

Thanks again.

1. Jobs Report

by Patrick Henry on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 12:52:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ummm... (none / 0)

I've seen this "September 11 hurt the nation economically" argument put forth to excuse Bush's poor jobs numbers.  Unfortunately, it doesn't go the distance.

While it's true that the greatest monthly job loss occurred in late 2001, the job losses have largely continued since -- and that has continued long past the end of the recession.  In fact, the lowest level of nonfarm payroll employment (seasonally adjusted) was in mid 2003 -- nearly two years after the 9/11 attacks.

As the International Monetary Fund has documented, the direct costs of the 9/11 attacks were just over .15% of the US GDP.  The property damage was less than that caused by the Northridge, CA earthquake in 1994.  If you add in insurance costs and other related costs, we're talking a loss of around .2% of US GDP in 2001.  All things considered, the overall impact was around .1% of US GDP.

Given the fact that job losses were already taking place before the attacks, and the fact that they continued for nearly two years afterwards, I think any assertion that 9/11 was a watershed moment that explains the economy's poor job creation (to say nothing of the syrocketing federal deficit) for most of Bush's term is going to require more proof than mere assertion.

I also found this statement:

"Bush like Reagan is painted as a dangerous extremist even though they are more likely than many in their party to work with the politicians on the other side of the isle."

to be laughable.  George Bush blew off the bipartisan spirit of September 11 for craven political gain in the 2002 elections, and he's done the same ever since, using the attacks as an excuse to push the most extreme agenda in our lifetimes.  To say the above is to live in a fantasy world -- perhaps similar to the one in which Bush is enmeshed.

by jonweasel on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 02:23:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ummm... (none / 0)

So maybe we can agree once and for all the economy is cyclical and Bush came into office at the start of a recession. I would also argue that policies enacted under an administration can help our hurt the economy to an extent, but they don't happen instantaneously. Back to the main comparison of Bush and Reagan, both men believed in the "trickle-down" theory behind tax cuts and both men cut taxes to kick-start the economy. Those job numbers have not gone negative since August of 03 and they have steadily risen. This does not count the household numbers which have been much more positive and tend to point out small businesses being formed. Overall you missed my point, or avoided it. All I was saying is that President Bush has accomplished a lot during this term and you seem to want to say nothing was done.

As far as your point about Bush blowing off the 9/11 bipartisan spirit. It is an obvious DNC talking point you have globed onto. I challenge you to look at the actions of the current Democratic leadership in the senate and the house, they have obstructed democracy by keeping votes off the floor and out of committee. You give me a he said she said argument, how am I suppose to respond. Where are your points to support this?

by Patrick Henry on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 04:12:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ummm... (none / 0)

Patrick,
I have never said the economy wasn't cyclical.  That's beside the point of the job losses we've seen, and moreover is beside the point you were making (you implied that 9/11 was largely responsible for the poor economic showing under Bush).

The recession in question started in the third month of Bush's term, and lasted until November of 2001.

The problem is this: we've had recessions before, and other presidents have had to deal with them.  Yet, when Bush could have chosen to deal with this one, he instead used the recession as an excuse to push tax cuts that provided very little bang for the buck, in terms of economic stimulus.

We've had 10 recessions since the Great Depression, yet Bush's is the first presidential term since Herbert Hoover to experience a net job loss.  That's not just bad luck.

No reputable economist believes the "household" job creation numbers are correct.  In fact, they're generally ignored even by pro-Bush partisans unless they show a better picture than the payroll numbers.

And Patrick, my memory isn't short enough for you to revise history regarding Bush's bipartisanship.  His campaigning leading up to the midterm election was stark and partisan, and was largely responsible for the gains Republicans saw in Congress.

by jonweasel on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 04:27:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ummm... (none / 0)

I have to admit I am having problems keeping up with all of you. The lawn is getting long so I will have to get back to you, but the fact that the Republicans gained seats in 2002 just might be because the American people agree with them more. Again I am not trying to make excuses for Bush it is just important not to deny what happened and the effects on the economy. Overall 9/11 will help the economy in my belief, but that is largely do to an increased sense of personal responsibility. I also agree with your assessment that the household numbers are not used, but job growth numbers have been good and I see your statements on the economy as a red herring. It just isn't as bad as you say.

Maybe in Novmeber I will have to eat crow - I am not sure all of the Kerry supporters are ready to do that. Good luck and good day.

by Patrick Henry on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 05:03:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Eating Crow (none / 0)

Well, if Bush wins in a landslide I'll have to eat something pretty cheap for the next few weaks to cover my IEM losses.  If Kerry wins, I'll treat you to a consolation steak dinner, if you care to come debate politics in Riverside, California. ;-)
Later,
Alex
Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama for President! Beat McCain!
by Alex on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 06:17:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Wrong way around (none / 0)

And I think, perhaps, that you know what I meant.  But just in case you didn't:

Bush = Jimmy Carter
Kerry = Ronald Reagan

The parallels are actually quite strong.  The condition of the country, the foreign policy disasters, the challenger behind in the horserace yet the one-term incumbent doing badly in the polls, etc.

by jonweasel on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 12:36:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ummm... (none / 0)

One thing we agree on, Kerry was not the best choice.  I agree 100%.  I think in a comparison to 1980, most people are comparing Bush to Carter.  Not the other way around.  
by yitbos96bb on Mon Oct 25, 2004 at 11:55:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Care to put your money where your mouth is? (none / 0)

I'd love to see the "Bush>52% contract on the Iowa Electronic Markets (see the link on the President 2004 Outlook page if you don't know what that is) break 50 cents a share; the higher the price on that fantasy, the lower the prices on the three plausible outcomes, and the more money I make on this election.
Later,
Alex
Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama for President! Beat McCain!
by Alex on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 03:49:36 AM EST

Re: Care to put your money where your mouth is? (none / 0)

Not sure what you are talking about with making money, but I follow a Kerry supporter pollster at www.electoral-vote.com. Are you suggesting you are willing to put money on this election? I will have to get you my contact information, maybe I can make some money. Have a good one my friend.
by Patrick Henry on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 12:56:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Care to put your money where your mouth is? (none / 0)

I was referring to the Iowa Electronic Markets, which sell election futures based on the outcome of the popular vote.  At the moment, I'm mainly playing the Senate control market, where most of their traders obviously aren't paying attention to the polls.  The most likely outcome at present is that the democrats pick up four seats, the Republicans three at best -- and that's if they can beat Daschle AND Jim DeMint can get away with sponsoring the insane National Sales Tax proposal.

As to EV.com, they include data from all the polls, including blatantly pro-Bush Strategic Vision, and lousy-likely-voter-model Gallup.  I'll stick with Zogby, the one pollster who absolutely nailed the 2000 election, with ARG, Harris, and Rasmussen as reality checks (that is, if Zogby and one of those three fall outside each other's margin of error, then I'll worry that Zogby might have screwed up).  ALL polls underestimate the power of GOTV; between the Democratic Party, ACT, and Moveon, I expect this election to have the highest turnout in at least half a century.
Later,
Alex

Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama for President! Beat McCain!
by Alex on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 02:48:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Care to put your money where your mouth is? (none / 0)

I am fimilar with the WSJ covering of the new Zogby poll, if you have poll data from past elections I would love to see it. I am not quite ready to fork out the money to Zogby. Anyway, I certainly know of the poll and expect a high turnout, but I am not a certain as you the high turnout would be good for Kerry. I will do some snooping on the Web for past poll numbers if I can get a chance.
by Patrick Henry on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 04:25:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Care to put your money where your mouth is? (none / 0)

I believe Race2004.net has current poll data for the subscription Zogby poll.  As to info from past elections, see this article.  I followed the polls in the last election very closely too, especially Zogby and Harris, and I have an excellent memory; Zogby predicted nearly all of the states correctly, as well as the national popular vote.  I'm afraid I don't have links to back that up, but you can hunt for that information as easily as I can.
Later,
Alex
Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama for President! Beat McCain!
by Alex on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 06:30:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Care to put your money where your mouth is? (none / 0)

Check this yesterday's NYTimes about how Democrats are registering more voters in Ohio and Florida than Republicans. If that is comparable in other swing states, than getting those newly registered to the polls would help Kerry.
by tim34 on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 11:34:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Mondale was Right (none / 0)

Missile defense didn't work then and missile defense doesn't work now. That won't stop Bush declaring the nonfunctional system operational (unless North Korea puts homing beacons in all its missiles).
by Left for the Left on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 05:26:31 AM EST

Re: Mondale was Right (none / 0)

I suspect Kerry would agree with you, of course democrats also said the Patriot Missile Defense system wouldn't work before the Gulf War.

A missile defense system would seem to me to be a great step towards peace. With nuclear missles around the world why would anyone be against it or so closed minded to say it is impossible. America is a "can-do" country. Mondale made the mistake of thinking Americans where "can't-doers." Kerry is toting that load now.

by Patrick Henry on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 01:01:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Mondale was Right (none / 0)

RIght.  You're obviously not a scientist or engineer; you also have obviously not seen the real story on the Patriot's performance in Gulf War 1, or on the "tests" of the new Star Wars system.  In the first case, the Democrats were right:
But an exhaustive study by Theodore Postol, a professor of science, technology and national security policy at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, later found no evidence that a Patriot had disabled the warhead on any Scud missile. "There were three cases where damage was done to the airframe of Scuds, but in all three cases the warheads went on undamaged," said Postol. "So basically there are no cases that we studied--and we had three-quarters of the engagements on film--where we saw evidence of a destruction of the Scud warhead."

Later, William S. Cohen, the Defense secretary under President Clinton, acknowledged that the Gulf War-era Patriot missile "didn't work."

As to missile defense, after some 100 billion dollars spent to develop it we now have a weapon that can hit an incoming warhead five time out of twelve as long as it's not surrounded by a cloud of low-tech countermeasures, such as mylar balloons, of which any nation capable of building an ICBM can install several dozen around the warhead, and carries a homing beacon for the missile defense control center to track in on.  Ever heard the cynic's version of Clarke's Law?  "Any suffieciently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo."  That Reagan was able to sell this idea was an example of another, aphorism, this one coined by H. L. Mencken: "Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public."

Now Bush is talking about deploying a system that we know doesn't work, as a cheap ploy to win votes from the gullible.  This isn't about what America can and can't do; it's about what we have and haven't done.  We haven't developed the technology to stop a ballistic missile attack on our soil, and pretending that we have does not improve our national security.

Now, just suppose for a moment that that "can-do" American spirit (the same one that's brought us the cures for cancer and HIV?) and the ingenuity of our scientists and engineers eventually produces a system that can stop ballistic missiles from striking us with 100% reliability.  Would that make us any safer?  Of course not, because a ballistic missile is not the only way of delivering a nuclear warhead.  It's not even a likely way today, since the only people likely to nuke the U.S. are terrorists who don't have access to ICBMs.  They do, however, have access to equally effective delivery systems; they're called "suitcases" and "shipping crates."  Guess what: Kim Jong Il has access to those devices too!  I think that the 100 billion we've already spent, plus the 50 billion Bush wants to spend over the next five years, is a bit much to pay for a false sense of security.

One more point, about that "great step towards peace."  There are currently three countries that have some likelyhood of attacking the U.S. with nuclear-tipped ICBMs: Russia, China, and North Korea.  Currently, all three of those countries are deterred from doing so by the certainty of a U.S. counterstrike.  Now, look at it from their point of view: as far as they're concerned, WE are deterred from attacking THEM by the threat of THEIR counterstrike capability.  If you don't believe that any of the leaders of those three nations are paranoid enough to worry about the possibility of a U.S. first strike on them, you REALLY need to get out more.  Now, suppose one of those paranoid leaders (say Kim Jong Il, as he's probably the least stable of the lot) sees the U.S. deploying a system that would eliminate his counterstrike capability and allow us to destroy his country with impunity.  Might he be just paranoid enough to launch an attack on us before we got the system deployed?  I wouldn't want to bet a million American lives that he wouldn't.
Later,
Alex

Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama for President! Beat McCain!
by Alex on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 03:52:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Mondale was Right (none / 0)

I have to put on my scietific cap and get back to you. I agree a breifcase bomb is very likely, but I disagree that thier is no threat. Where are all of Russia's weapons? Anyway I will get back to you - thanks again.
by Patrick Henry on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 04:51:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Mondale was Right (none / 0)

Any missing Russian nuclear weapons would appear as briefcase bombs -- it's the warheads that are unaccounted for, not the launch vehicles.  Ever seen a Soviet ICBM up close?  I have, in the National Air and Space Museum.  They're not exactly inconspicuous or easily portable.  They also require rocket fuel and expert maintenance which Al-Qaeda would have a hard time supplying.  There is a threat, but it comes from the three potentially hostile nations that have (or soon will have) ICBMs.  The current governments of Russia and China probably wouldn't attack us, but governments change.  The current government of North Korea might, especially if, as I suggested, Kim perceived us as trying to erect a "missile shield" in order to nuke him with impunity.
Later,
Alex
Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama for President! Beat McCain!
by Alex on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 06:36:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 1984: Will History Repeat Itself? (none / 0)

this is laughable,for one thing kerry is assured of at least 200 electoral votes no matter what.bush is no reagan  and at  least 46% of the country will not vote for him no matter what.also at this point in the election reagan was 20 points ahead not 3.
this is either 1976 or 1980, either way it adds up to a kerry victory. when this happens the right wing will go insane.the kerry hating will be a lot worse than it was for clinton because kerry`s election will prove the right wing they were wrong.
by EXBUSHVOTER on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 07:58:02 AM EST

Re: 1984: Will History Repeat Itself? (none / 0)

I would argue that Kerry has nothing guaranteed in this election. While Bush's base states continue to show strong strength, Democrat voting states are in contention.

WI - 52 Bush 38 Kerry
IA - 47 Bush 45 Kerry
OR - 48 Bush 47 Kerry
WA - 51 Kerry 46 Bush
MN - 49 Kerry 45 Bush
MI - 46 Kerry 44 Bush
PA - 48 Kerry 45 Bush
NJ - 47 Kerry 43 Bush
MD - 48 Bush 48 Kerry
MA - 47 Bush 46 Kerry
NM - 47 Bush 43 Kerry
All states Gore won in 2000. SOURCE: http://www.electoral-vote.com

It really doesn't take much for this election to turn into a landslide.

As for Kerry haters, I think Bash haters fuel Kerry's campaign and it would be hard to argue otherwise. Bush's campaign has never been compared to "anyone but Kerry." If Kerry wins I will accept the nations vote, unlike the 2000 election. Lets not project your party on to mine.

Have a good day :)

by Patrick Henry on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 01:17:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Oh, please (none / 0)

It's becoming more and more evident that the campaign you're following and the one the rest of us see are two very different things.

Bush's entire re-election campaign has been based on an "anyone but Kerry" thrust.  The whole idea of his blatantly misleading and distorting caricatures of Kerry has been to paint Kerry in such a bad light that even a failed president would look better.  Bush has ignored his own record in total, intead doing anything and everything to cast Kerry as the one everyone must avoid.

by jonweasel on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 03:02:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh, please (none / 0)

It is obvious we are watching a different campaign and different President for that matter. While I may be the first person you have spoken with about these ideas, it is not because there aren't more people with my opinion. I think watching politics from a political echo chamber; never listening to the opposing side's point of view, can lead people into believing alternate realities. Granted I watch Fox News, listen to talk radio and participate in Blogs of the right. I also saw Fahrenheit 9/11, watch CSpan, CNN, MSNBC and even CBSNews. I participate mostly in left wing blogs in an effort to understand your arguments and overall reassess mine. I read the Wall Street Journal and the Star Tribune, right and left papers. I won't hide my support for President Bush, but I am not blinded by it.

I see the bad things happening in Iraq and the progress we have made. I would argue yes I am watching a different campaign. I am seeing it from all sides and making an educated decision. The Bush campaign has attacked Senator Kerry's voting record and many on the right do express their fears of a Kerry presidency, but to sugar coat the democrat rhetoric is blind to reality. Michael Moore, Kitty Kelly, Dan Rather...should I go on. The smear against Bush started when he took office.

I would also argue that Bush as never ignored his own record. He has gotten much accomplish that he sought out to do in 2000. Is ads are pointing to AgendaforAmerica.com. You have made the mistake of convicting the President of being a failed leader without the evidence to support it.

I find it highly unlikely that you would refute the Anybody But Bush aspect of this election. Howard Dean supporters have jumped on the Kerry bandwagon even though Kerry campaigned to the right of Dean to win the primaries. Kerry is still outlining plans for Iraq which mirror President Bush's.

PS I was just visited by a nice Kerry supporter going door to door. It is good to see people engaging in debate on the issues facing the nation. His main concern was the war in Iraq, as is mine. We only talked briefly, his time is valuable, but basically he stated as many on this Web site do, that the President has shown poor leadership and has been unable to build a strong coalitional.

I admire is commitment to democracy, but I think that argument can be summed up best by what happen this last week. President Bush spoke to the UN and asked support for rebuilding in Iraq. Kerry felt that he should attack this effort saying the President is unrealistic and what not. How does that help America build a multinational force? Kerry then attacked the Iraq PM along the same lines. Where has Kerry shown he can conduct diplomacy better than Bush? Having a negative opinion on everything is no more realistic than a positive one. The two men just have different visions.

by Patrick Henry on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 03:51:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh, please (none / 0)

Why do all right wingers feel the necessity to claim "fairness and balance" at every opportunity?  It might have worked at one time, but most people have heard that song and dance.  It doesn't sell like it used to.

The Bush campaign has done far more than "attacked Kerry's voting record".  They've actively distorted it, misrepresenting his positions and the votes themselves on numerous occasions.  Oh, and what are we to think of a person who claims to taken in news sources of all kinds, yet doesn't know that the possessive of "Democrat" is "Democratic"?

Perhaps you're spending a little more time on the wingnut sites than you know.

The truly humorous thing, though, is the assertion that a case can be made that Bush's presidency hasn't failed.  So obvious are his fiscal and foreign policy disasters, so obvious the decline in kitchen-table-level prosperity, so clear the out-of-touch priorities for most people who don't get their "information" from Fox News that one usually doesn't have to make the case.

I believe it's hard to find a measure by which Bush could be described as a "successful president" (besides "attempting every screwball right wing notion that anyone has generated over the last 30 years").  But by all means, please, let's hear it.

To be a "plan for Iraq", a proposal needs to be given more than lip service.  It needs resources and competent leadership, both of which Kerry will bring to the table.  That's not "anybody but Bush".  That's "Kerry is the right man to get the job done".  Not sure how you got otherwise.

Oh, and one other thing.  I heard Bush's speech to the UN.  He didn't request support.  He demanded it, and chastised the UN for not doing more.  This president has snubbed our allies and the international community at virtually every turn, Bush is simply not in a position to garner international support -- and yes, that includes the support of our ernstwhile puppet in Iraq (who is so independent of Bush that he would come here to campaign for him, despite the capital it will cost him with Iraqis).

by jonweasel on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 04:11:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh, please (none / 0)

:) I guess Kerry was right when he said we are in the worst economy since the great depression. Don't deny distortions of your own party.

Quick notes:
1. Labels Mean nothing - we control the direction of the Democrat party indirectly through its voting in its leadership. Image isn't everything and actions are more important.

2. Pointing out failures without any specifics with "it is obvious", is a worthless statement. Bush inherited a resession and pulled this country through it. He empowered Americas by putting thier choices in thier hands instead of the government. Examples include No Child Left Behind giving parents a fair scale to judge public schools and the ability to put thier child in schools which are performing better. He lowered payroll taxes and taxes on investment. He encourage non-profit organization to help the needy.

With a mandate in this election he will do more like simplifing to the tax code or privatizing social security and implementing medical savings accounts. I could go on.

Yes these are all designed to limit the size and power of government over its people as well as remove special interest from Washington. The flip side of the coin is the President believes defense helps every American and has put more money in this area.

We may disagree on whether or not these issues are good for the country, but failure seems to be from a point a few, not any facts. That is why the issues are important, not labels and rethoric. Thank you

by Patrick Henry on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 04:47:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

LANDSLIDE (none / 0)

kerry could easily get 310 e.v. with a shift of a few percent.if bush blows the debate on thursday he will lose this election possibly badly. if he wins i`ll admit the elction will probably be over for kerry. assume  it`s a draw the townhall debate is another hurdle for bush. when he has to answer questions off the cuff is when he shows his stupidity.the election could  go either way and if the debates are a draw it could be a repeat of 2000.
by EXBUSHVOTER on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 04:26:23 PM EST

maryland is not close (none / 0)

i live in maryland and if you are referring to the survey usa poll it`s nonsense.maryland will go for kerry by at least 10.i believe they undercounted the minorities in this state.it`s pretty hard to find a bush supporter in the washington dc metro area where the bulk of the population  lives.the rural counties are bush country where the poll was probably mainly done.
by EXBUSHVOTER on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 04:32:17 PM EST

Not Even Close (none / 0)

At this point in 1984, Reagan was polling at 58%, Mondale was at 38%.  No one thinks Bush has a 20 point lead, not even the deeply flawed Gallup polls.  I don't know what will happen, but to me this election looks a lot like either the 1980 or 1976 elections:

An incumbent with a small lead in the polls but not breaking 50%.  Job approval numbers that are below 50%.  A challenger that people don't know well enough to chose over the currect president.  A slim majority has already decided they don't like the incumbent, now the challenger needs to sell himself.

by PonyFan on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 08:38:17 PM EST

Re: 1984: Will History Repeat Itself? (none / 0)

Dont forget the states Bush has on the line. FL and OH. He needs BOTH to win and to hold/pick up other states. Kerry can win w/o either, although it will be tough. NH, NV, AR, WV are also close. A WV GOP elector said there is a good chance he WONT cast his vote for Bush if he wins the state. So is CO(with the referendum) and MO, although they are second tier. and I wouldnt completely count out NC or VA, although they will likely go to Bush. 1984? no, as many have stated here, more like 76 or 80. Mondale really had no chance ever. Bush isnt Reagan. You remember how everyone got nostaglic after Reagan died? Well, people usually get nostalgic for something that reminds them of the past, which doesnt exist now. Reagan was the last great GOP prez we had. People look at the current prez and are understandly sad.
by tim34 on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 11:47:32 PM EST

Re: 1984: Will History Repeat Itself? (none / 0)

It is debatable that Bush needs both OH and FL look at for today: http://www.electoral-vote.com/.
by Patrick Henry on Mon Sep 27, 2004 at 01:41:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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