The Outline of A Case for Aggressive, Interventionist Liberalism

The recent discussion in the blogosphere about hawkish liberalism, sparked by Peter Beinart's editorial in The New Republic on the subject, A Fighting Faith, has interested me greatly. I am not a hawk; at least I do not think I am. I do, however, consider myself an interventionist, and I believe that the American left does in fact need to become more openly interventionist. Let me run down a list of recent instances when I supported military action:

  • As a lefty high school teenager, I wasn't sure about the first Gulf War. It seemed like something I should oppose, but for the life of me I couldn't think of a reason to oppose it. Sure, I was opposed to certain elements of it: attacking as early as we did rather than waiting a few months, using a heavy air campaign that needlessly cost tens of thousands of civilian lives, not supporting the Iraqi insurgency that rose up against Hussein following the war. However, an entire nation--a full voting nation of the U.N. I might add--had been attacked, conquered, and annexed by an opposing country. That had not happened since China and Tibet. Had our coalition, with Security Council authorization, not restored the government of a full voting member of the U.N., then not only was the U.N. a sham, not only would we be accepting the right of Kuwaitis to have a country but any hope of future international action against such an event would have been dead. The U.N. would have ceased to exist, and rightfully so.

  • In the early nineties, I remember in college how I used to get into fights with my liberal friends over my belief that we needed to immediately intervene in the former Yugoslavia. It was growing increasing clear that genocide was taking place, and calls for ethnic cleansing and a Greater Serbia were being backed up with actual military power. I remember especially heated arguments with my older brother and long-time girlfriend over this. They claimed non-violence was always the answer. I claimed that, in this circumstance, it most definitely was not. I felt exactly the same way about Kosovo in 1999, which I always supported. What few lefty outcries there were against both wars (most actually came from the right), rang completely hollow to me. People were seriously arguing that stopping genocide was unjustified because we were killing a much smaller number of civilians with our bombing raids? People were seriously arguing that we shouldn't intervene because we didn't understand the culture and history of the region? I could not stomach such arguments.

  • I was angered to no end about the lack of international intervention in Rwanda and Burundi. I even offered a public prayer in the Catholic church my family attends in Liverpool, New York--the last time I ever did such a thing--that world leaders would have the vision to identify genocide when they see it, and the courage to take the action necessary to stop it. When we did nothing, it quickly led toward my complete lack of faith in both political parties, and my resulting seven-to-eight stint year with radical politics.

  • I supported the long over-due actions to stop the genocide in East Timor.

  • By the 1997, after following the developing gains made by the Taliban in Afghanistan, I was also openly calling for military intervention there. Needless to say, when we finally did something in 2001, I was not opposed at all.
I was aware of all of the instances where I supported military intervention against a government that the United States had actively supported during the Cold War. While I accepted that reduced our claim to moral legitimacy in these areas, I did not believe that it served as an acceptable justification to not undertake the actions. I simply do not accept an argument that because we lack complete moral legitimacy, that we are more justified in letting atrocities occur than in stopping them.

However, even though I was pro-military intervention in all of these instances, I was, and remain, deeply opposed to the war in Iraq. I remain solidly in favor of immediate withdrawal of all our forces from the country. We did not stop genocide or invasion of another country by invading Iraq. Instead, we caused massive damage to the local civilian population, as it was clear from the start that we would. We did not save American lives by invading Iraq, as we have ended over 1,200 American lives and irreparably damaged tens of thousands more. Our occupation is not doing the country any good--it is simply fueling the fires of a totalitarian insurgency. Our invasion of Iraq is not bringing Democracy to the region, but instead restricting our ability to fight genocide in areas such as the Sudan. I do not believe that it is possible for a foreign nation to bring Democracy to a country through force of arms, particularly when a country has no recent history with Democracy. By invading Iraq, we have done massive harm to ourselves, the Iraqis, and have reduced our ability to do good in other places, such as Sudan. We need to get out now.

While I believe in aggressive, interventionist liberalism, not only am I opposed to the invasion and continued occupation of Iraq, I am also opposed to the "war on terror," for reasons I will explain below. This is specifically where I depart from writers such as Beinart and Kevin Drum. We don't need to join the "war on terror," which is not something natural, but is instead a Republican talking point developed by White House speechwriters in the months following September 11th. There is nothing natural, or even positive about this "war," and we must oppose it. If we use the language and take up the same crusades as our opponents, we will lose every time while simultaneously becoming just as corrupt and destructive as they are. Instead, we need to take up a broader war against totalitarianism--all forms of totalitarianism, not just Islamic forms--because it is something that is not only just, but because it is part of our values to do so.

I also have many problems with the implied argument in much of Beinart's piece. Essentially, at several points in the piece Beinart seems to be arguing that liberals should support every single action that is taken in the name of opposing Islamic totalitarianism no matter how ineffective or damaging that action is in even achieving the goals of that misguided crusade, in order to give the impression that liberals are willing to be aggressive in defeating "terrorism." The Iraq war was "bungled," Beinart writes. He notes "Cheney's false claims about Iraqi WMD" and argues "Bush's war on terrorism became a partisan affair." Beinart thus argues that the primary justification for the war was false, that the planning was horrible, and that the war on terror is an electoral gimmick. However, Beinart also clearly implies, opposing the Iraqi war it in any form is a bad idea because it gives the impression that we do not want to do more against totalitarianism, and this cost Democrats on November 2nd:

Kerry's vote against the $87 billion helped him lure back the liberal activists he needed to win Iowa, and Iowa catapulted him toward the nomination. But the vote came back to haunt him in two ways. Most obviously, it helped the Bush campaign paint him as unprincipled. But, more subtly, it made it harder for Kerry to ask Americans to sacrifice in a global campaign for freedom. Biden could suggest "a new program of national service" and other measures to "spread the cost and hardship of the war on terror beyond our soldiers and their families." But, whenever Kerry flirted with asking Americans to do more to meet America's new threat, he found himself limited by his prior emphasis on doing less. At times, he said his primary focus in Iraq would be bringing American troops home. He called for expanding the military but pledged that none of the new troops would go to Iraq, the new center of the terror war, where he had said American forces were undermanned. Kerry's criticisms of Bush's Iraq policy were trenchant, but the only alternative principle he clearly articulated was multilateralism, which often sounded like a veiled way of asking Americans to do less. And, because he never urged a national mobilization for safety and freedom, his discussion of terrorism lacked Bush's grandeur. That wasn't an accident. Had Kerry aggressively championed a national mobilization to win the war on terrorism, he wouldn't have been the Democratic nominee.
Beinart probably is not wrong about the impression that these actions give, but supporting them, which Beinart clearly think would have been a good idea in the election, no matter how ineffective they are, is not the solution.

The solution is also not, as Kevin Drum notes, to simply demand that liberals become more aggressive in "the war on terror." Before telling liberals that should become more aggressive in the war on terror, you need to tell liberals why becoming more aggressive on the war on terror is a liberal value, rather than just an issue of electability:

That's the story I think Beinart needs to write. If he thinks too many liberals are squishy on terrorism, he needs to persuade us not just that Islamic totalitarianism is bad -- of course it's bad -- but that it's also an overwhelming danger to the security of the United States. After all:
  • Subsequent to 9/11, virtually no Americans have died from terrorist acts. Rather, American deaths have been caused by our own war of choice in Iraq -- a country that has turned out to possess no WMD and have virtually no serious connection to al-Qaeda.

  • For all his tough talk, the president of the United States has tacitly admitted that he doesn't feel this war is important enough to require any sacrifice on the part of the American citizenry.

  • The Republican party has made it as clear as it possibly can that the war on terror is not vital enough to require either bipartisan support or the support of the rest of the world. They've treated it more like a garden variety electoral wedge issue than a world historical struggle.

  • Things like Tom Ridge's sales pitch for duct tape, along with the transparently political color coded terror levels, have made the war on terror fodder for late night TV. It's entirely predictable that anyone who was even a bit skeptical in 2002 now views the war as trivial at best, and comical or Machiavellian at worst.
It's arguable that liberals are foolish to let all this prevent them from seeing the totalitarian danger for what it is. But it's hardly surprising. The fact is that compared to fascism and communism, Islamic totalitarianism seems like pretty thin beer to many. It's not fundamentally expansionist, and its power to kill people isn't even remotely in the same league.
Kevin Drum is right. The case for engaging in a large-scale national effort against "Islamofascism" and/or "terrorism" has not been made to liberals, at lest not on liberal grounds. Thus, simply demanding that they abandon deeply held principle in order to win elections is no going to get you very far. First, the case needs to be made to them in terms of their own values.

However, I would go a step further than Drum, and much further than Beinart. I would argue that the case for marshalling our national resources in a great crusade against "Islamofascism" and / or "terrorism" can never be made to liberals because there is a clearly larger, more threatening international force that a much better case can be made for us to marshal our national resources against: totalitarianism itself / totalitarianism in general. A war against Islamofascism is both hollow and bigoted primarily because it only identifies Islamic forms, or possible forms, of fascism as worth fighting, but non-Islamic ones as no threat and worthy of most favored trade status. The obvious bigotry of the war against terror and Islamofascism is something that will never appeal to liberals, because of the obvious contradictions and tolerance of other forms of totalitarianism it permits. A war against Islamofascism and / or terrorism is hollow because it lets China and North Korea off the hook, no matter how many "Axis of Evil" speeches we make. A war against terrorism is hollow because it identifies organizations such as Al-Qaeda as a threat, but totalitarian, terrorist supporting regimes such as Saudi Arabia, Uzbekistan and Pakistan as allies. A war against Islamofascism and / or terrorism is hollow because it does not include Sudan, as the people being slaughtered there are being slaughtered primarily for the color of their skin rather than their religion (the majority of both the killers and the killed are Muslims). What great moral crusade are we taking up when the Saudi Royal family is one of our allies? What great crusade are we taking up when democratic France becomes our enemy? What great crusade are we taking up when we allow our jobs to be exported to China? No one can ever make that case to liberals, because a war against Islamofascism and / or terrorism is not a great crusade, but rather a Republican talking point and a thoroughly contradictory and bigoted enterprise. A war against all forms of totalitarianism, which would necessarily include regimes like the Taliban, would be a great crusade for which an argument could be made.

So, instead of being told that opposing idiotic moves by the Bush administration makes us look weak, and instead of trying to convince us all that we should join in the hollow, bigoted, and partisan war on terror either for electoral purposes or for its own sake, I have a better idea. Let's take up a hawkish, interventionist stance against something far more dangerous than Islamofascism and / or terrorism: totalitarianism itself. We need to propose a series of aggressive anti-totalitarian measures, the sort of sweeping, justifiable actions that are not only potentially effective, but also are things that conservatives could never tolerate:

  • End diplomatic relations with Saudi Arabia on the grounds that it funds terrorism, was complicit in the 9-11 attacks.

  • End most favorable trade status with China, and even consider sanctions.

  • Immediately create a doctrine where the US will militarily intervene to stop genocide anywhere in the world, with international assistance or without it.

  • A massive expansion, perhaps ten fold, of the Peace Corps and foreign aid.

  • Maintain an active policy of containment against existing totalitarian regimes, including aggressive funding and training of democratic opposition groups.
Conservative love for oil, endless corporate trade with tyrants, and hatred of activist do-gooders could never tolerate such positions. However, these ideas fit very well with liberal concerns to stop genocide, to protect civilian life and liberty with minimal use of American force, to free us of our dependence on oil, to oppose illegitimate forms of authority, to protect unions instead of tyrant loving corporations, and to defend human rights everywhere in the world, including in nations with which we are "allied." Place positions of this nature front and center as part of a permanent American war against international totalitarianism, and then you can make the appeal to our values, energize both us and the nation, and become more electable.

These proposals form the outline of an n aggressive, interventionist, liberal movement to protect freedom worldwide that I could get behind. Just don't ever try and convince me that we need to join up with the bigoted, cynical, Republican talking-point war against terrorism. Someone with my values cannot tolerate the endless contradictions and bigotries of the conservative "war on terror". We can't attack some forms of totalitarianism as worthy of a national crusade, and others as worthy place to manufacture our shoes, fill our gas tanks, and to fight with us side by side on the ground in foreign lands. We cannot single out certain forms of intolerance and accept others. Don't make the case to liberals for aggressive, interventionist liberalism by using conservative ideas like the "war on terrorism." Make they case for aggressive, liberal interventionism to liberals using our values. I have a feeling someone who tries this will have a lot of success.


Display:


Wars (none / 0)

I think we're about the same age. I'd just left high school around the Gulf War.

Amazing, we supported the same military actions. I actually told my girlfriend (still with her) at the time that I was thinking about enlisting to help out in Kosovo. I ultimately didn't because I think I'd be terrible soldier; I don't follow orders well even around the house. :) That's why I have so much respect for soldiers, soldiers like my sister, who work to protect our country... I really feel strongly that one should support the troops and not the war when a war is unjust.

Good post, Chris. Incidently, while I like a lot about the Greens the pacifism at all costs approach doesn't work for me. There are times like Kosovo when force is necessary. It's sad that that's the way we have to deal with brutal dictators and racists...

Incidently, any Greens visiting who noted that I disagree with pacifism, feel free to post your disagreement or show me how I'm wrong about that point. This topic should make for some good debate.

by Green Irishboy on Fri Dec 03, 2004 at 07:43:17 PM EST

Re: Wars (none / 0)

any Greens visiting

Not really a Green anymore, but was quite involved with them a decade ago and still follow what they are up to. I don't think pacifism at all costs is essential to Green politics, and as evidence point to the German Foreign Minister, a Green who made an eloquent case for German involvement in the Afghan invasion.

by spandrel on Sat Dec 04, 2004 at 12:11:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Dirty aspects of clean wars (3.00 / 1)

In Balkans, we ended up supporting Croatian fascists who completed ethnic cleansing of Croatia, pretty much under our watch.  In Kosovo, NATO barely manages a little cauldorn of ethnic vengefulness, adventurism (quasi-invasion of Macedonia) and gangsterism.  In Afghanistan we are protecting narco-warlords.

Intervention in Rwanda seems like a no-brainer moral choice, but were we ready to overthrown a government and impose a dictatorship of an ethnic minority in its place?  We would have to run a Kosovo-like protectorate for years to avoid that.  Given the Conradian mayhem that followed, mostly in Congo, that could be a VERY GOOD thing to do, but given the trans-national nature of the problem (Burundi, Congo, Uganda, Tanzania), one can legitimately doubt if we were able to pull it out.

by Piotr on Fri Dec 03, 2004 at 08:09:48 PM EST

another point (3.00 / 1)

It is possible to make case for selective "liberal" interventions, but one should not make an "aggressive case".  Outsiders all too often are reduced to this choice: support one group of thugs against another, or be universally despised.  In Afghanistan we went for the former, in Iraq for the latter.

Afghan model is clearly more practical, but this is not particularly "liberal" model, but a repetition of the more cynical episodes of the Cold War.  We intervene to have Our Bastards in charge, and if they happen to be a shade more humanitarian than Unaffiliated Bastards, well, we score a moral victory as well.

Plenty of reasons to use regional solutions, coalitions, patient diplomacy, with war as the very last resort, very last.

by Piotr on Fri Dec 03, 2004 at 08:20:07 PM EST

our ally in this... (3.00 / 1)


I think we have a remarkable ally in the form of the Catholic Church.  They have beautifully and concisely summarized the liberal position on war, in a simple four-bullet-point format.  Here is a copy:

"The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time:

    * the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
    * all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
    * there must be serious prospects of success;
    * the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition."

What is great about this doctrine from my perspective is that:

  1. It clearly matches with my instincts.
  2. It covers many valid reasons to go to war: genocide, self-defense, and totalitarian abuses included.
  3. It is respected by many other churches.
  4. Citing a religious doctrine puts us on God's side, and leaves the conservatives try to explain why they're against God.
  5. It is clearly not a pure-pacifist doctrine.
  6. It is almost unimpeachable.  I mean, "the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated."  How can you argue with that?
  7. It clearly illustrates what's wrong with the Iraq war (see #6 above).

by joshyelon on Fri Dec 03, 2004 at 08:34:19 PM EST

Great quote (none / 0)

And I sometimes wonder where my instincts on these issues comes from. It should have been obvious...
by Chris Bowers on Fri Dec 03, 2004 at 09:03:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: mostly (none / 0)

Chris,
I'm mostly with you on your
extended remarks above.
but please, breaking diplomatic
relations with Saudi Arabia?
breaking diplomatic relations is
the wimpiest, least effective,
never-in-history-ever-accomplished -
anything move a country can make.
then what? back it up with a boycott?
using our highly successful 40-year-old
policy for encouraging democracy
in Cuba as the model?
it would probably be more effective
to send an Ambassador who didn't
see his job a liaison to the oil industry.
might be more fun to send a woman
as Ambassador. a no-B.S. feminist
who would drive her own car.
by Woody on Sat Dec 04, 2004 at 12:22:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

oh yes, one more thing... (none / 0)


All this talk about "embracing the war on terror in order to make us look strong."  Does this make us look strong?

  • Conservative: What's wrong with all you anti-war pacifist hippies against the Iraq war?

  • Liberal: We've decided to support the Iraq war, after all. You've convinced us.

  • Conservative: I see you finally got a clue.  Took you long enough.

I don't think that makes the liberal look stronger than the conservative.  I think it makes the liberal look like a slow-witted version of the conservative.  The lesson?  Giving in to conservative positions validates those positions, while simultaneously making you look stupid for not realizing that they were valid sooner.  The only time we should do it is if we genuinely feel the conservative was right - in which case, we don't feel bad about giving in.  But this clearly isn't one of those cases.
by joshyelon on Fri Dec 03, 2004 at 09:16:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Operations Other Than War (3.00 / 3)

We don't need more wars or bigger and better wars or smarter wars. We need a military that is capable of conducting Military Operations Other Than War (MOOTW or OOTW). I believe it was General Butler who said, "The military is a great hammer, but not every problem is a nail."

In his biography, "Battle Ready" by Tom Clancy, Gen. Zinni covers several situations he was responsible where our military carried out OOTW semi-successfully, but the will to follow through was missing.

Yugoslavia, Ruwanda, Burundi, Afghanistan and Haiti are all examples of crisis situations where a military solution is inadequate. You cannot bomb a failed nation state into a successful nation state. In addition to failed nation states there are international problems like disease, environmental disasters, narco-terrorists, terroris, genocide, international crime cartels and just plain old nasty dictators where a military solution by itself is not an adequate response.

Thomas Barnett's book, "The Pentagon's New Map" is essential to understand the future of warfare
linked text

My diary only covers the highlights of Barnett's book, but it includes a link to Barnett's three hour presentation linked text which used to be free and now costs $24.95.

According to Barnett's blog linked text he will be appearing on CSPAN again on December 9th.

Barnett states flat out that it would only take the military a few years to overhaul their structure if promotions to flag depended on successful OOTW instead of military weapons purchases. What Barnett and Zinni both have in mind is the transformation/creation of a military that utilizes the expertise of the State Department to establish functioning governmental bureaucracies, an enhanced Army Corp of Engineers to build/re-build infrastructure and financial MBA's who can help build an economy from scratch if necessary.

Darfur is a perfect example of a tragedy/crisis that cannot be corrected militarily. At this point in time neither the U.S. nor any other country is equipped to provide the type of combined military, economic and bureaucratic assistance that Darfur requires.

Neither Gen. Zinni nor Thomas Barnett are fuzzy thinking idealistic liberals. These are two hard nosed realists with military experience. All it requires is the will to find a better solution than war.

by Gary Boatwright on Fri Dec 03, 2004 at 08:39:53 PM EST

Re: Operations Other Than War (none / 0)

I'd call this a good beginning, coming, as JollyBuddah notes, from hard-nosed realists within the military. But in the long run, the military component has to be reduced to virtually nil. War is rooted in coercive systems of dominance, and the real struggle is to be free of them once and for all.

War itself is only 8-10,000 years old. Humans have lived a much longer stretch of time without war than they have lived with it. As we realize a larger and larger fraction of the job is not military, it will become more and more apparent that the military component is only serving as a rallying cry for the would-be warmongers of the world.  Call me a Fabian pacifist, if you will, but there is an inherent logic in moving determinedly toward an end-state of complete non-militarism.

This is somewhat parallel to the idea I have about law enforcement. That it should be handled exclusively by women. Eventually, I think the idea that all big bad criminals face eventually being caught and put in jail by women will vastly deligitimize criminal stance in the eyes of those who find it attractive.

by Paul Rosenberg on Sat Dec 04, 2004 at 05:31:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

me too (none / 0)

I also supported the Gulf war to
liberate Kuwait.

in that case, Saddam had violated
Rule No. 1 of international law:
Thou shalt not invade thy neighbor.

I'm not sure there is a universally
agreed Rule No 2.

(the end game was bungled when
we encouraged the Iraqi people
to rise up in rebellion, then turned
our backs and walked away while
they were crushed. but that does not
mean we were wrong to enforce
Rule No. 1.)

then I supported Kerry, worked hard
for him, two weeks door to door in
October and hundreds of dollars.
but I still fail to understand how
he voted against the first Gulf war,
to enforce Rule No. 1, and then
voted to let W have his war.
hunh?

but let's look ahead and not get mired
in these nuances of the past.

by Woody on Fri Dec 03, 2004 at 09:46:04 PM EST

Dangit, that isn't the answer. (3.00 / 1)

I. Me on a personal level

First, if this party becomes hawkish at an activist level, at its ideological roots, i'm out of here. I'd rather throw away my vote to the green party, than vote for a party trying to outdo the Republicans in making the world one giant machine gun nest. If we run a war hawk for president, you can come by and visit me at the get Nader on the ballot petition drive. now onto the substance of the issues....

II. Intervention is not a panacea

Force doesn't work, and most of our interventions haven't really worked. Propping up a government or knocking another one out of power rarely makes the situation any better, and only sometimes does the situation look more "American", after we left. I'm not going to go to deeply into history here. How many times must the use of force fail to graft American ideals onto another society before we give up on it?

Many liberals are stuck with the notion that having the most powerful military means that we can go in a put the powerful (or in many cases the entire citizenry) at gunpoint and order them to obey our will so that they become happy, enlightened, etc. They don't. Imagine a world where we are the society that the rest of the world says is backward. Their righteousness leads them to eliminate our democracy, freedoms, etc. and put in a hand picked council of theocratic rulers consisting of Christians who are most compatible with Osama Bin Laden's version of Islam. They dutifully put Jerry Falwell, Sen. Santorum, Sen. Vitter (LA), and Ted Nugent on the ruling council. They stay for a while...then they leave and expect the us to live happily like they do. Then we overthrow the extremists and the country is riled in chaos for decades and decades.  That's how absurd it looks in the countries we do this for. With the still uncertain exception of Afghanistan, look at the Iranian shah, South Vietnam, Haiti, most of central America, Somalia. It's a joke.

III. Ugh, those policy alternatives sound like a disaster.

As far a the reccommendations for a new democratic foreign policy...i'm thinking huh??? the two big ones would be a diaster...with the last one being a close third.

So once we've pissed off Saudi Arabia, and China... we would then sock it to the Pakistanis. NK would become an ally with that crowd obviously. With the Saudis now on the other side, any Middle Eastern moderation towards Israel would disappear.   Assuming Iraq continues to go badly, I can't really see a pro-American government being elected there. Now that the world is completely geographically polarized (minus India which would be forced to get close to us), the oil consuming half must rely on the oil producing half.

IV. My solution

I think the point that is being missed is that, foreign policy specifics rarely impact politics. We need to work to create broad brush strokes of foreign policy, and point out the real failures of the Bush foreign policy. I think a NASA-esque strategy of:

Smart
Strong
Steadfast

There is no argument against this strategy...but at the same time as the party out of power, we can point out places where the Bush administration fails this motto.

If there is a blunder somewhere, we claim that Bush's policy isn't smart. They don't plan enough, they dont look at their options.

If we have to pullout, because we are losing somewhere (like the first try in Falluja), we say they aren't steadfast.

When they get accused by some general of not giving enough attention to some aspect of the war on terror we claim that they aren't strong.

Every error fits into the theme, and the theme can not be criticized. If every democratic politician just start repeating smart, strong, and steadfast in every foreign policy comment, America will get the point. We have to weave their failures into a narrative. We don't have to become hawks.

by srolle on Fri Dec 03, 2004 at 09:51:09 PM EST

Re: Dangit, that isn't the answer. (none / 0)

I think a NASA-esque strategy of:

Smart
Strong
Steadfast

There is no argument against this strategy

You are right, there is no argument against this strategy, becaue it is not a strategy--its rhetoric. All you are doing is applying adjectives to actions rather than proposing actions. And yes, of course, "every error fits into the theme" because it is an extraordinarily vauge perscription that not only will mean very different things to different people, but can be easily stretched to apply to any situation. A super-intelligent weed is smart, strong and steadfast. I understand some of your squeamishness over my quick and crude proposals, but replacing Bush's foreign policy with adjectives isn't the answer.
by Chris Bowers on Fri Dec 03, 2004 at 09:58:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dangit, that isn't the answer. (none / 0)

the point is that joe public doesn't make foreign policy. Experts do. They sit in their think tanks and battle it out. Only domestic issues are decided at the ground level. The only time the public gets involved is in the reactionary/appraisal phase. What  specific foreign policy prescriptions have ever been presented to the public? Even more narrowly, what policy prescriptions have ever been supplied to a non-crisis situation, as your alternative foreign policy addresses? Sure CATO, the Brookings Institute, and all the rest go at it back and forth all the time, but the public just doesn't get it. If you want a non-reactive voice on foreign policy, activism isn't the answer. Academia (or the doctoral products of it) and elected office are the only ways to prescribe foreign policy. We must be prepared to take advantage of the reactionary anger that is coming against the president. We can not create a target for the president to deride as even worse than his failures.

We should be focused on the broadest strokes we can  find; a mantra that we can brand as our own. We need a conception that will be bolstered by every piece of news people hear. Don't think of what I said as a real policy prescription. It's just a slogan, maybe not even a good one. But we need some type of slogan.

It's like calling yourself pro-family. Does that make your opponent anti-family? no, but a bunch of voters will think of it that way. when they hear news about an issue they don't like that hits a "family" chord in them, they want to vote for the "pro-family" party even more. We need to become America's "good" foreign policy party.

by srolle on Fri Dec 03, 2004 at 10:23:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dangit, that isn't the answer. (none / 0)

"What  specific foreign policy prescriptions have ever been presented to the public?"

Off the top of my head without thinking at all, the election of 1920 was pretty much a referendum on the Treaty of Versailles--the beginning of the modern Republican fucking of our foreign policy

"You say the world has lost it's love I say embrace what it's made of" -Dar Williams
by Valatan on Sat Dec 04, 2004 at 11:13:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

not spoilin' for a fight, but... (3.00 / 1)

Just as a matter of clarification, Saddam's invasion of Kuwait wasn't exactly as simple as aggressive expansionism, as nearly all Americans assume.

As William Blum points out in his book Killing Hope, a debate has raged since 1961 (when the British ceded control of Kuwait to its puppet royal family) arguing whether or not Kuwait is part of Iraq.  On one side of the debate is Iraq, and on the other side is the UK, other former colonial powers in Europe, and the Kuwaiti "royal family."  

The gist of it is that the Brits carved out Kuwait at the end of the 19th century as a puppet regime to challenge the Ottoman Empire.  The Brits gave up Iraq in the 1920s, but kept Kuwait because of its vast coast (the creation of Kuwait reduced Iraq's coastal territory to 19 miles).  When the UK finally got around to leaving Kuwait, they'd insured that most of the area's trade wealth ended up in Kuwaiti pockets.

When Saddam invaded Kuwait, it was definitely not cool, but it had two (admittedly questionable) rationales we often ignore:

  1. a desire to reunite a country with one of its pre-colonial provinces that was stripped away solely for political reasons

  2. a desire to more equitably redistribute wealth that, due to Western intervention, was in the hands of a tiny minority of friends of the British (granted, most of that wealth would have ended up in Saddam's hands)

Also, Bush 41 engineered the whole thing.  Saddam started making public rumblings about invading Kuwait, often explicitly saying that he wouldn't do it unless he could count on the US not to intervene.  In the weeks before the invasion, reporters on several occasions asked Bush 41 what he would do if Iraq invaded Kuwait, and over and over again, Bush said it was none of our business and the US would stay out of it.  With this green light from Bush, Saddam rolled on in, and suddenly Bush had a nice, tidy, popular war.  If he'd said threatening things before Saddam had invaded, maybe the thousands of lives lost on all sides could have been spared.  The first gulf war was entirely preventable, just like the second.

I'm no apologist for Saddam Hussein, and I'm with you in thinking that his annexation of Kuwait was definitely the wrong way to go about things, but there was a better reason than pure greed for what he did.  We need to understand subtleties like this, lest we descend into the realm of the "they hate us for our freedom!" camp.

I highly recommend reading Blum's book.  It'll give you a whole new perspective on the dirty truths supporting pretty much all of our military and CIA interventions since WW2.

by greeble on Fri Dec 03, 2004 at 10:57:17 PM EST

Re: not spoilin' for a fight, but... (none / 0)

I'm not buying any territorial claims
or injustices going back decades
to the collapse of the Ottoman
Empire. if such claims justified
violating Rule No 1,
Thou shalt not invade thy neighbor,
no map of Africa or Europe or Asia
could be printed in ink -- only
erasable graphite lines would do.

whatever its phony origens, Kuwait
had been an independent state
and a member of the United Nations
for over 40 years before Saddam
invaded. the statue of limitations
had long ago expired on those
territorial claims. forgetabout it.

now, if Bush 41 failed to indicate
that the U.S. would abide by the U.N.
Charter if a member state was invaded,
then shame on him.
I'd be very interested to see citations
on that claim.

but if he said that, he mis-spoke,
because the U.S. is by treaty committed
to enforce the U.N. Charter if or when
the Security Council can ever get its
act together to authorize it.
I'd say no President can unilaterally
waive that obligation to enforce
Rule No. 1, and if he did, the other
members of the UN would retain
the right under the Charter to take
action. that's pretty theoretical, I'll
admit, but them's the legal facts
Saddam faced in 1990. then he
broke the law and Iraq took the
consequences. you're pleading
entrapment? he should have been
too smart to get entrapped. tough.

by Woody on Sat Dec 04, 2004 at 12:09:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: not spoilin' for a fight, but... (none / 0)

Thanks for your response.  My point was not to excuse Saddam's behavior in any way (you're absolutely right: there's no excuse for invading your neighbor), but to point out that the Kuwaiti question isn't as simple as many people would like to believe, and that this is exactly why we have to be very, very careful about putting our support behind any military brouhaha our government chooses to involve itself in.  Some fights have been justified, but we could all use a little more discretion in selecting the ones that we stand behind.  Bush 41 could have prevented the invasion of Kuwait and subsequent Gulf War 1, and that's why I can't support either of them.

As for the citations you asked for, they're in William Blum's copious footnotes.  Sorry that I can't give them to you myself, but I can't seem to find my copy.  It's a great book, though, and you might enjoy reading it.

by greeble on Sat Dec 04, 2004 at 02:58:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: not spoilin' for a fight, but... (3.00 / 1)

It's also worth noting that

(1) There was talk of the US invading Iraq months before Iraq invaded Kuwait. I recall reading at least on piece in the Nation in Spring of 1990 which raised this possibility.

(2) As Saddam was advancing into Kuwait, Neil Bush was advancing to the front pages with his involvement in the Silverado S&L scandal. The last thing Bush wanted was his family's face on the whole S&L debacle.

(3) There was a clear opportunitiy to negotiate a withdrawl by Iraq, as early as August and as late as the day we invaded. Bush was not interested in this. He was interested in acting macho, winning re-election in a landslide, putting an uppity former client in his place, and, oh yes, establishing a military foothold in Saudi Arabia, thus stirring up this dude named Osama, whose family Bush was real tight with.
(4) Bush had to repeatedly change the rationale for war in a frantic search for something the American people would support.

by Paul Rosenberg on Sat Dec 04, 2004 at 05:45:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: War on Terror or War on Totalitarianism (none / 0)

I don't think we should presume to try to declare war on concepts. Period.  In the '80's, we did not defeat Communism, we defeated a strategic competitor in the USSR.  We can no more defeat a concept or an ideolgy like Terrorism or Totalitarianism than we can defeat drugs or crime or poverty.  They will always exist in some form or other.  We need to focus on the real people who pose real threats to us and deal with them accordingly, whether that is diplomatically, politically, or militarily.
by descrates on Sat Dec 04, 2004 at 12:44:11 AM EST

Missing the Point (3.00 / 2)

Most of this anguish is missing the point.

Democrats are not "weak" on military or national security policies, but Republican propaganda has pounded this point since Nixon ran against McGovern.

Does anyone really believe that Al Gore would not have invaded Afghanistan to go after Osama & the Taliban?  Of course, Republicans say this, and the rightwingers say this, but what evidence is there to show that there is any truth to it?

The Republicans don't really have policies that represent strength, but they do have a penchant for giving bellicose speeches on these matters.  Their policy comes down to spending a shitload of money on military hardware has never been shown to make the country any stronger, it is just PR.  And of course the military personnel who make money off that spending flood the corporate press/media to tell everyone how strong we are now that they have all that money.

Invading Iraq has nothing to do with America getting stronger.  The fact is that America is weaker now in every sense with respect to national security.  Dead Arabs make Americans feel good, but mopping up the remnants of Saddam's armed forces, dropping bombs on large cities and playing the role of occupier are not exactly signs of great strength.

What Democrats need to do is to develop the arguments in favor of policies of real strength and long-lasting security.  And part of that job is going to be exposing the Republican policies for what they are:  fraud, waste and stupidity.

What Democrats lack are the leaders with the guts to do this.

by James Earl on Sat Dec 04, 2004 at 01:19:51 AM EST

Re: Missing the Point (none / 0)


I don't think anybody here thinks that Democrats are weak on defense.

Here's the problem.  When the Iraq war came around, we had lots of reasons to reject the war. But many people thought that our "reasons" were rationalizations.  They thought that we were pacifists, and that we would really oppose any war, and that we were simply looking for excuses.   Therefore, they discounted everything we had to say.

Imagine how different it would have been if:

  • If Democrats had a short, simple, unimpeachable list of rules for evaluating wars.
  • If Democrats were to make it clear that they stick to those rules like glue.
  • If every American had those rules memorized.

The memorization is key.  I want to be able to walk up to any Republican and ask, "what are the Democrat's four rules for war," and have them rattle off a list of points, like they're rattling off lines in a school play.  They don't have to agree with the principles, I just want them to be able to recite them.

If we did that, then it would be very hard for the Republicans to paint us as irrational pacifists.  It just plain wouldn't stick.

For example, let's imagine a hypothetical situation.  Imagine if, during the 1980s, the Democrats had endorsed the four principles of Christian Just War as part of the party platform, and imagine if we had gone through a heavy advertising campaign to ensure that all Americans had the four rules memorized.

Then, imagine if during the first gulf war, we had emphasized our commitment to the rules, by saying "Well, let's see. Invasion of Kuwait - yes, that's a real harm, that statisfies rule 1.  We have enough troops to win - that satisfies rule 3.  We think we can win without killing too many people - that satisfies rule 4.  Finally, we warned Hussein to retreat and he didn't - that satisfies rule 2.  So yes, we approve this war."

Then, imagine if we had used the same set of four rules to approve the Clinton wars - and made it freaking obvious that we were using the four rules. Then, imagine that we approved the Afghanistan war on the same four rules.

Then, imagine that the Iraq war had rolled around, and we had rejected it - on the same four rules.

The entire dynamic of the game would be changed. It couldn't even plausibly be argued that we're pacifists: after all - we're using the same four rules we always have, and we've approved a half-dozen wars using those exact same rules.  The charge wouldn't stick.  Second, it would make it very obvious that we're sticking to a clear set of principles, that we're not just approving and disapproving of wars at random.

by joshyelon on Sat Dec 04, 2004 at 01:04:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Rules In A Knife Fight? (none / 0)

While it would be useful to have a short, easily understandable approach to the use of military power, this is will not solve the problem.

First, the very idea of "rules" is rejected by the American War Party types.  It would be misrepresented and ridiculed, like "global test."  The reasoning and wisdom would never become apparent to the electorate.  You could line up former generals from West Point to Camp Pendelton to talk about how good it was and it would still not dent the mentality that equates military violence with "strength" nor would you reduce the mentalityt that equates any questioning of the use of military power as weakness, naivete and disloyalty.

Second, the Democratic Party's problem with military and national security issues is not connected with any particular policy or with general policies.  

Dick Cheney ran & hid during the Viet Nam War.  As Secy of Defense, he allowed Saddam to stay in power.  As Secy of Defense, he reduced military spending, cut programs and cut back on the number of troops in every branch of the military.  Yet he was never attacked as "weak" or anti-military and indeed there was never any question that anyone would make those attacks.

I do not have a clearly developed line of thought on how to overcome or respond to it, but the labeling of Democrats as weak, naive and disloyal on military and national security issues is a lie, but a widely believed lie, just like the notion that military violence is strength.  What we must do is destroy the lie with the truth.

by James Earl on Sat Dec 04, 2004 at 02:56:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Un-war and peace (none / 0)

FWIW, I wrote this a couple of years ago:

"Peace" is something more than just the absence of war between nations, it's a state in which civil society flourishes, and people can live and work and marry and have children and raise them without fear of being whisked away at any moment for a perceived infraction of The Rules, whatever they happen to be at the moment.  "Peace" is when people don't just survive, they thrive, when they can make a living, and buy the food they need, and have the respect of others, and live in freedom without fear.  If they don't have those things, if their lives are stunted and warped by the perversions of dictatorship and oppression, if their lives are ruled by constant fear, then there is no "peace" there, there is only the absence of war.
Ed Fitzgerald
posted to an e-mail discussion group (12/22/02)

unfutz
by Ed Fitzgerald on Sat Dec 04, 2004 at 01:32:01 AM EST

Invade The IMF/World Bank (none / 0)

Arguably one of the greatest sources of human suffering in the world today is IMF/World Bank. Under them, and the economic regime they've established, Africa sends more money to the West in interest payments than the West sends to Africa in aid. As a result, millions have died through lack of health care or grown up illiterate through lack of education.

Perhaps it's worth considering invading these institutions?

by Paul Rosenberg on Sat Dec 04, 2004 at 05:58:04 AM EST

Re: Invade IMF/World Bank (none / 0)

Peter Beinart's editorial in
The New Republic cited
some poll taken of delegates
to the Democratic Convention
asking whether they would
ever support efforts to change
another country's policies
in any way. (excuse my crude
paraprase) Overwhelmingly
they would NOT, despite
the lack of any reference to
military efforts to make such
changes.

ummn. Wouldn't the cancellation
of debt to international organizations,
Western governments and big
banks as the carrot, in exchange
for certain reforms, such as free
elections -- wouldn't that mean
intervening in the policies of
many African countries? I think
I would favor such an effort.

And BTW I'm not sure I would
support cancellation of the debt
without some serious changes.
Too much of the money was
simply stolen in the cruel African
kleptocracies, and that cannot
be disregarded without allowing
it to happen all over again.

When Woodrow Wilson ran his
mouth about self-determination
of peoples and all that stuff at
the end of World War I, and then
FDR and Harry Truman supported
the high-minded goals of the
United Nations, and Eleanor
Roosevelt worked to enact
something like our Bill of Rights
into an International Declaration
of Human Rights (excuse if I'm
not remembering exactly the name
of this worthy document),
weren't these liberal leaders
sort of threatening to try to
influence the policies of foreign
countries?

Sadly, the Republicans, and
some others, have made any
sort of intervention seem wrong.

Back during the Cold War the US
Information Service had libraries
open to the public in major cities
throughtout the Third World.
Does one still exist today in all
of Africa? Last year I was two
months in Ghana, and I know
the British have a public reading
room with London newspapers
and more, but the US? I don't think so.

I also recall some 15 or 20 years
ago marching with friends to
protest the inaction of the US
government in the face of
Apartheid in South Africa.
Maybe the neo-cons would
have advocated dropping bombs
on the South African nuclear
facilities. But in fact, US policy
toward South Africa did change.
And I've seen the change credited
with helping to change the racial
policies when a new Prime Minister
came to power, leading to the
freeing of Nelson Mandela
and the end of Apartheid.
South Africa has huge problems
still today, but my conscience
lies better thinking that we helped
end Apartheid there -- and that
without invading, or threatening to.

I'm sure we all agree that military
intervention is the last resort,
always.

But the Democrats have a proud
heritage of spreading liberal ideas
around the world. And we have
done some worthy interventions
far short of war, but quite effective.

Can we find a way to frame these
positive interventions as a viable
alternative to weapons spending
in troubled times? We did during
the Cold War, can we do it again?

And of course, I'd include debt
cancellation as one way to go.

by Woody on Sat Dec 04, 2004 at 02:58:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Invade IMF/World Bank (none / 0)

The intervention questions is not just loaded, it's fundamentally, methodologically flawed. Of course liberals support influencing other countries policies. That's what diplomacy is all about.

This kind of question-posing is simply indicative of the broad brain-death that is prevelant at the intersection of foreign policy and public opinion.  Combatting this appalling state of affairs was apparently the reason for the establishment of the most excellent Project on International Policy Alternatives.  

Back in the 1990s, the CW had it that there was "a new isolationism" after the Cold War. In response, PIPA put out a book, Misreading the Public: The Myth of a New Isolationism, which anyone really interested in this thread should definitely check out.

One of their key findings was that Americans are very much in favor of actively spreading democratic values, but that they favor doing it by democratic means--non-military rather than military, and multi-lateral (via the UN) rather than unilateral.

In other words, on foreign policy, as well as most domestic policy, the public is firmly in the liberal camp. It's not that liberals and Democrats have to "rethink" their positions. They have to reframe them and communicate them to a public that already agrees with them but largely doesn't realize it.

by Paul Rosenberg on Sat Dec 04, 2004 at 03:59:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Foreign intervention (none / 0)

I think expansion of the Peace Corps and financing of opposition groups is a bad idea. American financing in many countries would guarantee an end to many a groups credibilty. American intentions are looked on with suspicion because of our policies and track record in places like the Middle East and Latin America.  Rather then intervening in other nations internal politics better we implement reform of our own economic and foreign policies.

I would also always be leary of armed intervention (although I supported the armed intervention in Bosnia and Afghanistan). I think we should do it when we can be sure it is doable and the unintended consequenses can be minimized, which is to say -not very often.

by hankg on Sat Dec 04, 2004 at 10:33:19 AM EST

Aggressive Interventionism == NeoCons (none / 0)

It is no surprise that neocons have their roots in liberalism, they believe in aggressive interventionism all over the world. Of course one person's aggressive intervention is another's colonialism.

Have we really solved the Kosovo issue with the intervention there? What about Haiti? Where is Haiti now? Or Somalia? The appetite for "nation-building" feeds on itself until we are obsessed with remaking the rest of the world or else...

There are times when intervention is a clearcut choice, when national security interests are threatened by events abroad. At that point there should be no objections to aggressive intervention.

At other times, diplomacy, fostering free trade, and economic progress are much more effective weapons in bringing about desired change outside the nation.

by SwingVoter on Sat Dec 04, 2004 at 11:02:08 AM EST

Re: Aggressive Interventionism == NeoCons (none / 0)

I agree with Chris:  the fact that we neither can nor should try to do the right thing "everywhere" does not mean we can't apply our principles to act where we can make a difference.

We have to be realistic about what we can acomplish, and realistic about what it will take over the long haul to take on each intervtion we may consider.  We have to consider our national interests, but as progressives, I think we would place less immediate emphasis on defining the national interests in terms of, say, access to oil, and more relative emphasis on the prevention of the spread of totalitarianism.  That would consitite a valid alternative vision for the role of America in the world.  

We also could and should be more circumspect about what force can and cannot accomplish, when it comes to promoting democracy.  For that effort, extension of the Peace Corps and wise us of USAID is more powerful than armed intervention or threats.

by Pachacutec on Sat Dec 04, 2004 at 11:42:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The problem with being "hawkish" now (none / 0)

is that we, the US, have completely squandered our credibility by engaging in a whole series of truly reprehensible military interventions that cleary bore no relationship to any just causes or objectives for a war. Let's see... Iran in 1953, Vietnam, Chile, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Panama, Iraq in the 80's, when we helped Saddam gas the Kurds etc. etc. This latest Iraq war is just the most recent in a long chain of morally indefensible uses of our armed forces. Having said that, I am by no means a categorical pacifist. I also agree that we had to do something in Yugoslavia, Somalia, Iraq in 1991, and Afghanistan in both 1978 and 2001. We also should have done something in Rwanda and shoulfd be doing something in Sudan right now. The problem is that we have so squandered our credibility with respect ot even perfectly just and righteous interventions that a great many people will be inclined to come up with reasons why even the most laudable use of force is in fact a front for some nefarious designs. Having done so, we have grievously undermined the prospects for a global system based on th erule of international law, which was what we wisely tried to institute at the end of WWII, after having experienced in no uncertain terms the magnitude of human destruction that modern warfare can bring about. How will history judge us for squandering this singular opportunity to act as a trusted arbiter of global justice in favor of using our military to advance designs that had more to do with economic hegemony and cronyism than the utilitarian principle?

Harshly, that's how. So at this point I would say that it is not a question of how much or little we intervene, but of how we get back some measure of credibility, so that when we do intervene, even in a place like Rwanda, the dominant narrative in the world will be about lives saved and catastrophes averted and not about cartels seeking to control diamond and Coltan mining operations.

Personally, I think hhe damage done by this Iraq war, which was totally unjustified by any reasonable measure, may well be lethal. I don't think anybody will trust the US for a very long time, regardless of who is in charge, especially since so many among the ranks of the Democrats were too spineless to stand up to the war machine and speak the plain truth, which is that this was an unprovoked war of agression, and flew in the face of every important provision of international law and international justice. The fact that the American people have now failed to repudiate the leadership of George Bush in response to this outrage pretty much closes the case against the US internationally. Regardless of what its architects may have had in mind for the people there, it is really no less reprehensible from a standpoint of international law for us to have invaded Iraq the way we did than it was for Hitler to have invaded Chzechoslovakia or for the Japanese to have invaded Manchuria. We all know what the ultimate consequences were for those nations after they did those things. I think it is pretty clear that the subtext of the global conversation about the US now is all about how to reduce our power in the world, because we have become irretrievably corrupt. In the end, we will suffer severely as a result of that subtext. The only question is how much and for how long. We only have 5% of the world's population, and the rest of the world will not go on letting us have 40% of the natural resources for long, unless we are actually doing it some really meaningful good.

So, as much as I blieve in the idea that it is legitimate to use force in the support of just causes, relaistically, we have to evaluate any future US interventions with respect to the grave moral stain that we bear for what we have done in Iraq and elsewhere. I think it may well be the case that the only way we will really regain the world's trust is by engaging in a protracted period of isolationism, i.e. minding our own damn business, no matter how just or needed some intervention might be, because we have completely squandered our moral capital.

THAT is the damage that George Bush has done to the US, AND WE GODDAM LET HIM DO IT! America now needs to engage in a serious period of introspection and self-evaluation before we ever try to project force beyond our borders again. If we don't, I fear the rest of the world can and will bring us down.

by blerb on Sat Dec 04, 2004 at 11:12:28 AM EST

Re: The problem with being "hawkish" now (none / 0)

okay, but the case against doing the right thing, if we believe it is the right thing, can't be that we've done so much wrong in the past.  

When yo know you've fucked up, the time to begin to make it right is now.  Credibility can be regained over time when actions are consistent that show a change of behavior.  That's life, no?

by Pachacutec on Sat Dec 04, 2004 at 11:34:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Liberal Imperialism (none / 0)

This is a good example of the main strategic problem with liberalism in the US - the fact that at its roots, liberalism defends US imperialism. The tactical problem has been a result of purging the Democratic Party and the mainstream civil society movements of anti-imperialists in the name of anti-sectarianism. This sectarian anti-sectarianism has left the liberals dereft of a worldview that contains legitimate political opinion on its left. Therefore, the liberals have led the movement of political opinion in the US to the right for the last several decades.
by lynfidel on Sat Dec 04, 2004 at 11:14:51 AM EST

A thousand times, thank you! (none / 0)

I have been trying to promote this discussion, with far less success and based on far less work inh articulating the full case, over at kos.  It's been like pissing up a rope.  People get mad at me.

While your policy recommendations may or may not be right on target, you are right that we need to articulate a principled, liberal alternative agenda.  Even if it is not enacted, it creates pressure from the right angle, and can move the needle of policy in the direction we seek.

Must be the commonality of our Catholic backgrounds that makes us so sympatico with the idea of a proactive, liberal approach to foriegn affiars and the fight against totalitarianism.

The beauty of the frame is that it links seamlessly with the domestic agenda of the party's base, and is trult rooted in our principles.  We are not just anti-Bush.  We are for freedom, and not in the callow, hollow sense conveyed by Bush when he uses the word mendaciously.

Bully for you, Chris, in taking on this question and articluating the case in a progressively principled way.  I hope this meme gets picked up a lot more among members of the base.  

We are simply not credible as promoters of freedom when we do not extend our vision beyond our own borders, and lacking such credibility, we don't deserve to win national elections.  It's as simple as that.

And this fits perfectly with your well articulated analysis of the weaknesses of liberalism unearthed through the partisan index, and fits our real need to rebrand and remake the party, by expanding the liberal base.  In this case, good politics and gppd principles coincide.  This is not a matter of becoming republican-lite.  This is a matter of becoming serious and adult about liberalism.

by Pachacutec on Sat Dec 04, 2004 at 11:30:54 AM EST

Re: A thousand times, thank you! (none / 0)

As long as "extending our vision beyond our borders" does become a conduit for bankrolling the Halliburtons, I am with the concept.

The vision has gotten bastardized to such an extent that we just don't see what successive administrations have done in the name of "freedom". It is the unnecessary and excessive intervention and meddling in dozens of nations around the world that has backfired time and again on us.

by SwingVoter on Sat Dec 04, 2004 at 01:32:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

agreed. (none / 0)

In another diary, I've argued that we begin to talk about "entrepreneurial america" as an alternative frame considered against "middle america."

Under that concept, we can also position ourselves against the big corporate, anticompetitive practices of Haliburten and the whole K-Street/Tom Delay government-for-sale machine.  This is an Elliot Spitzer type, Teddy Roosevelt reformist agenda.

by Pachacutec on Sat Dec 04, 2004 at 01:46:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

proactive doesn't mean agressive intervention (none / 0)

If we are going to be ensure our economic and national security we need to fix our policies -that's more important then whether or not we intervene in a particular place. The root causes/strategic fixes are more important then tactical moves to patch up the results of bad policy.

As the Pentagon report said: they don't hate our freedoms, they hate our policies. They understand  US policies much better then Americans do.

As far as promoting democracy, embargo's (such as in Cuba) and armed intervention (as in Iraq) will usually have the opposite effect intended. Another year of the Iraq mess and the the macho posturing/ "now that we are there we must win" will start to sound pretty pathetic.

by hankg on Sat Dec 04, 2004 at 12:06:42 PM EST

A word for Kosovo... (none / 0)

This debate begins with a denigration of the Kosovo intervention. While it's certainly not perfect - and we've not created a state of grace there - what it did do was to create enough of a reality check that the dictator Milosovic was thrown out. And it happened with remarkably little bloodshed.

We should be aggressively promoting the intervention in Kosovo as an example of Democratic stalwartness: a brutal dictator, with weapons of mass destruction (his army of thugs), was confronted and, eventually, removed by his people. Oh, and by the way, with substantially less cost and with strong international cooperation. And are we fighting partisans in Kosovo like we would have, had we invaded Serbia? Clearly not.

Class, please compare and contrast to the current disaster.

by RHG on Sat Dec 04, 2004 at 06:01:49 PM EST

I would give more credit to Beinart's comments (none / 0)

if I felt like he was actually talking about real liberals.  But every example he cites is a straw man.

For instance, he laments that Michael Moore listed terrorism as not a legitimate threat, and seemed more concerned about the evils of the Carlyle Group than Al Qaeda.  But in the first situation, Moore is merely warning people about the evils of hysteria, which causes people to react to a problem with far more extremity than it demands, and in the second situation, Moore cites the Carlyle Group as a reason why Bush refuses to go after Saudi Arabia, the seat of the extremist Islamic movement, because the Carlyle Group has extensive business ties with the Saudis.

He also cites the delegates at the DNC as typical of liberals everywhere, and is particularly hung up on the fact that they seemed more concerned about problems at home than the Republican delegates.  Gee, I wonder why.  Could it be because the Republican delegates have friends in the White House and Congress who cut their taxes and believe in their social causes?  Of course they think American government is not a threat now that everything is going their way, which gives them space to focus their paranoia more on external affairs.

When he laments that the delegates were mainly opposed to intervention, even though military action had not been cited, he might have considered that all of our recent interventions have been military in nature.  Therefore, the delegates might have assumed that any future interventions would be the same way, which would have led to concerns about our forces being overstretched with no exit strategy.

But far be it for Peter Beinart to treat liberals' concerns as though they are complex and worthy of discussion; that would put a crimp in his ever-growing superiority complex.  

by wilder on Sat Dec 04, 2004 at 06:59:47 PM EST

I guess what I'm trying to say is (none / 0)

An important discussion on the use of force needs to be held.  But Beinart diminishes the gains that could come from such a discussion when he refuses to see liberals' concerns for what they really are.  Not a loopy, pie-in-the-sky desire for people to just throw down their weapons and hold hands, not just reactionary stubbornness to whatever Bush proposes, but important, legitimate concerns that need to be addressed if the United States is ever to win the fight against terrorism.
by wilder on Sat Dec 04, 2004 at 07:06:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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