Masking Realignment

Much has been written of the Southern and rural realignment in the national coalitions, including Thomas Frank's much-discussed What's the Matter with Kansas?. I have argued at great length that this realignment is now semi-permanent and ideological. At least for the next couple decades, no longer will the South vote for the southern candidate and / or southern party. Now, in Presidential elections, the majority of southerners vote for the conservative candidate and conservative party. My argument is that the only remaining way to swing almost every single southern state is by being conservative, not by being southern. We can no longer hope that nominating a southerner will improve our chances in the region in Presidential elections.

To a certain extent, the southern trend toward ideological, rather than regional, voting patterns was masked by Clinton's victories in the 1990's. The size of Clinton's victories (5.5% and 8.5% nationally), combined with the lingering regional, rather than ideological, affiliation of some southern voters in 1992 and 1996 (an affiliation that is now all but gone), allowed him to win many southern states. Clinton won Arkansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Missouri, Tennessee and West Virginia twice. He also won both Florida and Georgia once, and came very close to victories in North Carolina and Virginia. However, even during the Clinton years, the south was turning away from Democrats, and I believe we would be foolish to think that we can reverse our fortunes down there simply by talking values, nominating a southerner, or some other such gimmick.

Another important realignment occurred in the 1990's, although it was largely obscured from public view by the lies of the Republican Noise Machine. For years Republicans have argued that Perot swung the election for Clinton in 1992, to the point where this is even the collective wisdom of many Democrats and liberals. This is, as I have argued in the past, completely false. However, I recently ran across a poll from late in the 1992 campaign which suggests that not only did Perot not throw the election to Clinton, but that he actually reduced the size of Clinton's victory:

PEROT UNDERTOE THREATENS CLINTON

Ross Perot's surge in the polls is drawing somewhat more support from Bill Clinton than from George Bush, and the third party candidate seems poised to make more gains that might further narrow Bill Clinton's nationwide margin.

A special Times Mirror re-interview survey of 1153 registered voters conducted Oct 20-22 found 44% supporting Clinton, 34% George Bush and 19% Ross Perot. The benchmark poll, which took place Oct. 8-11, had Clinton leading by a 48% to 35% margin over the President, with independent Ross Perot gaining the support of only 8% of the pre-debate sampling.

Over the ten-day period between surveys 79% of the electorate maintained their presidential preferences in the face of four televised debates. However, of the 21% who changed allegiances, the largest categories were Bush (4%) and Clinton supporters (6%) defecting to independent candidate Ross Perot. As shown in the table below, Perot was also the beneficiary of added support from voters who were initially undecided.

		       October 8-11
		Bush   Clinton	 Perot	 Undecided
October 20-22
Bush		 30	  1	   1	    2
Clinton 		  1	 41	   1	    2
Perot		  4	  6	   6	    3
Undecided		  *	  *	   *	    2
The panel-back similarly showed the percentage of voters naming Perot as their second choice rising from 33% to 44% currently. Analysis of the poll results reveals that people who say that Perot is their second choice, or say that there is some chance that they might vote for Perot are drawn more often from Clinton's base than from Bush's. The potential defection pattern approximates the pattern of losses to Perot incurred by Bush and Clinton over the past 10 days.
	  Might Vote Perot   Perot 2nd Choice
Current
Bush		35		  40
Clinton 		57		  60
Undecided		 8		   *
In 1992, Perot actually drew more of his support from potential Clinton voters than he did from potential Bush voters. However, by 2000, according to exit polls that situation had reversed:
1996 Perot Voters
Bush	  64
Gore	  27
Nader	   7
Buchanan    1
From Perot voters and potential Perot voters preferring Clinton over Bush by roughly a 60-40 margin in 1992, to Perot voters breaking for Bush by roughly a 64-27 margin in 2000, over the course of the 1990's we experienced a major realignment that few noticed or appreciated. This was a realignment among a group of voters I have previously termed non-ideological reformers. Because the conventional wisdom, supplied by the Republican Noise Machine, was that Perot handed Clinton victory in 1992, and thus Clinton was not a legitimate President, most people simply assumed that Perot voters naturally trended Republican. Like everything that comes out of the Republican Noise Machine, the conventional wisdom of the tendencies of Perot voters in 1992 was a lie. Perot drew more of his support form Clinton than Bush.

The twin realignments of conservative southern whites and non-ideological reformers smashed the once overwhelming, nearly super-majority Democratic New Deal coalition. Unfortunately, for us, to a very real extent, the reality of both realignments have been masked. On the one hand, many Democrats bent on "electability" still want to believe that southerners will vote for a southern Democrat, and thus we often refuse to accept the reality of the southern realignment. On the other hand, many people of all political persuasions have bought into the Republican lie that non-ideological reformers, known in the 1990's as Perot voters, are naturally Republicans, and without Perot in the mix they are simply "coming home." This masks another reality, that in 1992 (and probably 1996) the non-ideological reformers significantly preferred Clinton compared to his Republican opponent.

The reformer realignment has been successfully hidden by the Republican Noise Machine, which attempted to make this important shift it look natural rather than reversible. The reformers shifted to Republicans in 1994 allowing them to sweep Congress, and also went Republican in 2000, 2002 and 2004. Had Gore swung this group in 2000 to the same level Clinton had done in 1992, he would have won the election by 4-8 points nationally, taking at least New Hampshire, Florida, Missouri and Ohio. Both the southern and reformer realignments are real, and we would do a tremendous disservice to our own electoral prospects if we try to explain one away as natural and the other as reversible as long as we nominate a "good old boy," or something to that effect. If we want to be pragmatic in our choice of candidates, that is fine, but we need a better framework to from which we can identify "electable" candidates. Our 2004 "electability" model--be competitive in the south and have strong military cred--was horribly inaccurate and outdated. Let's hope that in 2008 the CW will be different.


Display:


But What About Barack Obama or Similar? (none / 0)

I generally agree with your assessment of the realignment of the south with conservative candidates rather than regional-southern candidates. An exceptional candidate, though, could change that reality. The only possible exceptional candidate that comes to mind would be Barack Obama. How would he play in the south, although a Democrat and from Illinois?
by Debi White on Mon Dec 13, 2004 at 02:52:08 AM EST

Breaking Off The Republican Party's Unbase (3.00 / 1)

This post dovetails nicely with your earlier one about how to break the Republican coalition.

Essentially, as poster Andy Katz pointed out, this would involve peeling off what Kevin Phillips calls the Republican "unbase" -- the voters who abandoned both Bushes for Perot, McCain, and Buchanan.

In terms of issues, Phillips argues that these voters are concerned with:

Political reform

  • fiscal responsibility and deficit reduction
  • campaign finance and election reform
  • anti-Washington lobbyist culture

Economic nationalism/populism
  • opposition to upper-bracket tax biases
  • criticism of corporations and CEOs
  • fair trade

Opposition to the religious right

Opposition to imperialist overseas adventures like Iraq

Interestingly, Phillips argues that these people are not really libertarians, but more moderate cultural populists.

At any rate, I think this kind of a strategy fits right in with the "I am a reform Democrat" mantra that Kos is popularizing. The Democrats must recapture the outsider/reform mantle that the Republicans have stolen since 1994. There is a potentially rich narrative of Bush administration and congressional Republican corruption, tied to corporate malfeasance that we can tap into to do this.

These sorts of "reform" issues should also help bring about a much-needed truce between the DLC/centrist and liberal wings of the party by providing a common set of issues that both sides can rally around. So we unify ourselves while we help split the Republicans.

by tgeraghty on Mon Dec 13, 2004 at 03:05:07 AM EST

Re: Breaking Off The Republican Party's Unbase (none / 0)

I was absolutely convinced that these voters would never break for Bush. I am still somewhat surprised, but I guess the national security and 9/11 neurosis issues were enough to keep them attached to the Republican party.

I continue to believe these voters are ripe for plucking, especially considering the current outlook for Bush's 2nd term. This voting bloc is much more winnable than the conservative Southern voters.

by Gary Boatwright on Mon Dec 13, 2004 at 03:50:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Breaking Off The Republican Party's Unbase (none / 0)

I'm not sure they went for Bush this time.  It was suburban and urban white women who lost it for us-they were scared that "teh terrists" were going to blow up thier kid's elementary school or something.
by Geotpf on Mon Dec 13, 2004 at 01:32:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Breaking Off The Republican Party's Unbase (2.00 / 0)

We should have listened to Kevin Phillips instead of the DLC. I'm also going back and reviewing "The End of the Republican Era" by Theodore Lowi (c) 1996. The Republicans managed to throw a couple of monkey wrenches into the political machinery, but I continue to be optomistic that their demise is imminent if we prepare well and execute a MyDD/Dkos strategy.  

Of course the DLC and DNC could still screw things up in '06 and '08. I'm not ready to conceed my belief that are determined to maintain their death grip on the party apparatus regardless of the cost.

DLC motto: Grassroots? Is that a new band?  

or

Grassroots? We don't need no stinkin' grassroots.

by Gary Boatwright on Mon Dec 13, 2004 at 04:05:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Breaking Off The Republican Party's Unbase (none / 0)

We can't be anti-Washington if we nominate a pair of Senators!  The trend throughout our history is that Senators running for President (unless rinsed off by a term or two as Vice President or Governor) lose.  Look at McGovern, Dole, and Kerry.

Bush has disguised an extremely shaky and undependable presidency with words of trust (you know where he stands).  Bush creates a crisis for the excitement of fixing it.  We follow the advice of Ann Landers: if it ain't broke, don't fix it.  Not every thing needs to be reformed (at least until the Bushies get their grubby hands on it).  We are the people who know the difference between reform and compulsive tinkering.  You'd never know that from some of the past campaigns.

by David Kowalski on Mon Dec 13, 2004 at 07:28:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Breaking Off The Republican Party's Unbase (none / 0)

I call for a truce.  Focus anger at the GOP but not at fellow Democrats.

Al From clearly backed Vilsack for VP.

The Kentucky Democrat
by kydem on Mon Dec 13, 2004 at 08:43:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Breaking Off The Republican Party's Unbase (3.00 / 0)

I know a few Republican libertarians- they are in as much denial as anyone else as to where their party is headed.  I asked one point blank recently, as I have been asking a lot of people, where exactly do you think this is headed? What do you think you won in this election? How can the Patriot Act given your ideals be something you can consider as good? He had no answers, but was certain of his position never the less. I can sum up his position on the patriot act as not wanting to think about it because he was sure that Bush wouldn't abuse it. I pointed out this was an odd thing for a libertarian to say.  He still had no answer so I moved on to baseball of which he was more interested. This is what we face- it's called intertia and apathy. The intertia of believing a group connection where that connection no longer exists. The apathy or world weariness of figuring out what exactly a situation is versus what we want it to be.
by bruh21 on Mon Dec 13, 2004 at 09:48:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Breaking Off The Republican Party's Unbase (none / 0)

Apathy and inertia are certainly tough political barriers to overcome. However, it is clear to me that the "bland centrism" or "unprincipled centrism" we see from the move right democrats isn't going to stir even the lightest sleeper in the room. To make the apathetic and inert pay attention, we need more fire and feist and less blah blah blah.
by dicta on Mon Dec 13, 2004 at 11:20:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

what that is (none / 0)

That's a need to "vote for" rather than "vote against". The more I've considered this, the more I have come to think it's true.

People massively disliked Bush. If your friend is anything like my similar Republican-libertarian friends, then at his core he disliked the flaws in the Patriot Act, and probably Rumsfeld, Ashcroft, and the whole neocon gang... but amazingly (to me), he hasn't made the mental leap that the only way to hold them accountable is to kick them out of power. He doesn't have a reason to vote for Bush, but he can't bring himself to break loyalty and vote against Bush either.

So many people who didn't like Bush basically stuck with him because (for whatever reason) Kerry was not perceived as having something to vote for. They were not willing to vote against without having something to vote for.

by drewthaler on Mon Dec 13, 2004 at 02:50:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

They voted their identity. (none / 0)

Plain and simple. No need for a lot of analysis. There is truly a cultural divide developing in this country along racial/religious lines. It is being fueled by America's relative decline in the world to a more normal position. Call it circle the wagons. If you are under thirty you will see a practical attempt to create a soveriegn global government in your lifetime. How will the spoiled brat Americans react to that? Will they take their ball and go home? Will they be the Samson that brings down the temple? Or will they do wat Kerry et. al. wants to do and continue American leadership of the project, with all the rewards that implies? At least for the next 4 years we know the answer.
by Paul Goodman on Mon Dec 13, 2004 at 03:56:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: what that is (none / 0)

Stanley Greenberg came to this conclusion:
RE: SOLVING THE PARADOX OF 2004
Why America Wanted Change but Voted for Continuity
http://www.democracycorps.com/reports/analyses/solving_the_paradox.pdf

by joncehart on Mon Dec 13, 2004 at 05:24:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Breaking Off The Republican Party's Unbase (none / 0)

Thanks for bringing Kevin Phillips into this.
joncehart
by joncehart on Mon Dec 13, 2004 at 05:22:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The South (3.00 / 1)

I wanted to comment before when Chris first wrote about the Democratic Party's chances of winning in the South.  Since his last post raised this issue again, Id like to respond now.

While Chris's comments are insightful and provide a good summary of the politics in the south right now, in my opinion he both overlooks the rapidly changing demographics of the old "Confederate" states and minimizes the enduring role of regionalism in this part of the country.

First, demographics:  there are two ongoing changes in southern demographics that will make several southern states competitive in 2008 and beyond.  The most prominent is the influx of hispanics.  This is especially a factor in Texas, Arkansas and Florida.  The other is the ongoing immigration of northern professional workers, particularly in the states of Virginia and, to a lesser extent, North Carolina.

Thus, in terms of targeting, the Democrats should pursue a strategy of concentrating on the southern states on the periphery (excuse my spelling)-Virginia, North Carolina, Florida, Texas and Arkansas.

That I include Texas on this list may seem surprising, but I think that state will move from "bright red" to red-purple in 2008.  While Bush won Texas by 60%-40%, about half that margin was due to the perception that he was a Texan.  I say this based on the strong evidence of a continuing, strong "home state advantage."  (To see this, compare the home state votes of Carter in 1980 in Georgia, Mondale's vote in Minnesota in 1984, Clinton's vote in Arkansas in 1992 and 1996 to how the candidates did in the national vote.  Even Gore's vote in Tennessee in 2000, was about 15% better then Kerry's this year.  So, assuming that the Republicans do not nominate someone from Texas, one can subtract 10% of Bush's margin in 2008 and also subtract the 2.5% that Bush won by nationally and you see that in an even race between two non-Texans, Republicans would have about a 7-8% advantage.  Now, further consider that over the next 4 years there will be a continuing, large increase in hispanic voters and you see that Texas is, over the next few presidential elections, going to move from strong Republican (2004) to battleground-leans Republican (2008) to true toss-up (2012).

Second, regional pride.  Despite the changing demographics, I believe the south still contains a strong measure of regional identity and that this feeling is reflected in voting behavior.

The best demonstration of this is comparing how Clinton did versus non-southernors in 1992 and 1996 versus how Gore and Kerry did versus a "perceived" southernor in 2000 and 2004.  In both '92 and '96, Clinton not only won 4 southern states (plus Kentucky, a southern border state), compared to zero states won by the Democrats in '00 and '04, the Republican advantage in the partisan index throughout the south was, on average, about 1/2 as large as it was in the last 2 elections. So, while having a southernor lead the ticket in 2008 will not guarantee that that region will return to the Democratic fold, I do think southern regionalism still exists in the voting decisions of the electorate there.

In summary, I believe that the Democratic Party's chances of competing on the "periphery" of the "old south" are very reasonable and that our odds increase if a southernor leads the ticket.

Andy Katz
by Andy Katz on Mon Dec 13, 2004 at 09:22:16 AM EST

Re: The South (3.00 / 1)

You realize that you are talking about two competing things? The Southern regionalism that you refer to is not influenced by the demographic shifts, or vice versa. If demographic changes i the rest of the country is any precursor- indeed, they will eventually be at odds with each other (see NYC for what I mean). A Mexican who has moved into the South is not going to be inclined to vote Southern because the candidate is a traditional Southerner, nor is a northeasterner or anyone among this demographic shift. Certainly, not because of any "pride" in the traditional "white" South reason. By the way, can you start adding white because as I said over at Daily Kos, any discussion of these issues needs to be done with intellectual honesty considering most Blacks, upwards of 90 percent vote Democratic, and this figure includes most evangelical blacks, so you aren't talking about blacks- you are just talking about whites- say that. There is an overlap in the groups between the "pride of the South" types and the conservatives. As there is an overlap between the racist south types and the conservatives. It may not be a perfect overlay, but it's there.
by bruh21 on Mon Dec 13, 2004 at 09:42:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The South (none / 0)

Bruh21 asks "[y]ou realize that you are talking about two competing things."  Yes I do.  I imply this when I wrote "[d]espite these changing demographics . . ..  Obviously, I could have been more clear.

What I mean is that there are two (compteting) factors that influence southern presidential politics: demographics and regionalism.  While I agree that there is an "inverse" relationship between these factors, as demographic change increases the effect of regionalism on voting will decrease, that fact does not prevent both factors from being influential now and in the forseeable future.

Andy Katz
by Andy Katz on Mon Dec 13, 2004 at 10:15:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The South (3.00 / 0)

It does mean that you can't create or find a candidate who is going to appeal to both. The problem with both your argument is that it assumes you can have it all. You can't. At some point, there are finite choices to be had. Does this mean you shouldn't do a fifty state strategy? No. It means you realize there are limitations to them- and what those limitations are so that if you have principles- assuming we all have principles, you can define where you are willing to go according to those principles- which again is my skreed to the need for leadership. We keep failing not because of regionalism, but because of the need for leadership. Which apparently a lot of Democrats are still not comfortable hearing. There is no magic carpet ride to sucess in the near term- what we need to be doing is building a long term path to sucess- appealing to the newer demographics so that they are party loyalists in the region as their numbers grow.  For example, we can make inroads into the Latinos- even Cubans- b/c the newer generations are more Dem friendly. Y'all keep trying to win 2008- what I keep asking is what will guarantee sucess after that?
by bruh21 on Mon Dec 13, 2004 at 10:34:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re-alignment (3.00 / 1)

Andy is a bit too optimistic here. The growing Latini populations in the Southeast will take a while to turn into votes, given the large number of people who are illegals or not yet citizens. More significant will be the dying off of the old guard Cuban-Americans and dumb decisions like vcutting visitations to family in Cuba. Virginia may yet trend democratic, however, even northern Virginia is culturally much more Southern than the rest of the DC area and it will take a different appeal to win in Virginia than even in Maryland. NoVA is much more like, e.g., Atlanta, than like traditional Dem strongholds. Put it this way, many residents of the District & its Maryland suburbs do everything possible to avoid spending time in Virginia--this attitude is a barrier to winning there, too, although it was an attitude I heartily endorsed when I lived in DC.

Oddly, it's the "Perot vote" that is more promising for border states and perhaps Florida. The GOP administration sin the South have had no trouble rapidly demonstrating a high level of corruption. At some point, we will see the usual cycle of indictments, untidy personal lives, etc. that come with this. That will provide openings for state-wide Dems and certain kinds of national candidates in the South.

BTW, OBama is sybolic of one thing that divides the South from the rest of the country. Black candidates have won in places like Chicago (not know for great race relations), Denver, and Seattle. That rarely has happened in the South (see Harvey Gantt for an exception). Illinois which has many race relations problems (the Southern part of the state has a fairly rancid history and Chicago has tough racial barriers), elected Carol Moseley-Braun and Obama. That could never happen in the South. Just ask Harvey Gantt.

by rich on Mon Dec 13, 2004 at 09:43:43 AM EST

Re: Re-alignment (none / 0)

I grew up in Virginia- your analysis is wrong about Northern Virgina being culturally more Southern. It's not.  I lived in both NoVa, DC and grew up in southern virginia on the NC border. I have also lived in the central part of the state before moving away to the northeast. This is all to say that I am familar with the politics and rationals there- if anything the NoVA as trended blue from since the time I have left and will be a swing state by 2008. THis is not depended on a Southerner being on the ticket. It will be two things- a) demographic increases due to the tech corridors b) reallignment of the military vote as the Iraqi war descends deeper into a quagmire (we will still be there). Threats to this are from the religious right- they have a powerful strong hold in the state- not as strong as WV and the like , but it's there. Race will also be a factor- more so in the southern section of the state where I grew up.
by bruh21 on Mon Dec 13, 2004 at 09:55:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Re-alignment (none / 0)


I think the example of Virginia offers even more of an exception to the main post. Mark Warner (D) was elected Governor four years ago with majorities even in the most rural areas. He's fairly progressive, but made gun rights a key issue while courting the business community with proposals for investing in education and infrastructure. I think he's shown how to win in the South without becoming Repuglite.

By talking about fiscal responsibility to the future, he even split off enough of the Republican majority in the state legislature to pass a tax hike.

 

by spandrel on Mon Dec 13, 2004 at 10:39:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Re-alignment (2.00 / 0)

It depends on the state. It occurs to me that when people talk about these issues- it is like when they talk about Latinos- there is no such entity really. There are Cubans, there are PRs, and there are other groups too. Latinos just sort of masks the differences. The same holds true to some degree for the South. Virginia and NC for example are good prospects for pick ups in the next decade. KY and OK are not. Sorry, but any state that is going to elect a doctor who has sterilized women, sometimes illegally, and who regularly says racists statements, is too far gone to convince with anything. The same holds true of any state that ignores the fact that it is electing a guy with mental issues just because he has the R after his name.  Consequently, the issue remains-w hen people say they want to pick up the South- I will ask what part? Certainly not the part that requires us to change our core values. If we obtain these two states- we already are moving towards an electoral college shut out of the REpublicans. The other two states are Fl and OH- both of which require that we put more effort into the state machines there as well as the trending blue states of CO and the western states.
by bruh21 on Mon Dec 13, 2004 at 10:57:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Re-alignment (3.00 / 0)

True, but even with all that, he barely eked out a win and could never have succeeded without the cosmopolitan, tech heavy NoVA corridor, where I live.  

This area is highly educated,culturally "blue" and full of immigrants.  The relative expansion of this blue area, which is really closer to Washington DC culturally than it is to Richmond, is not really evident in other Southern states.

In short, I'm not at all sure that Warner's formula has much potential to be applied successfully elsewhere.  Even West Virginia would need a less obviously upper class sensibility, such as Warner's, and no amount of gun rights would sell a Democrat there unless the conservative candidate were really a buffoon. . . and even then. . .  oy!

Warner's win is more akin to Edward's anomalous blip in NC, which was based on the expansion in power of the Raleigh-Durham tech triangle.  But that area's power has begun to fade as conservative ideology has begun to trump all else across the South.

If Virginia continues to trend Dem, it will be because the inside the DC beltway area where I love will continue to ascend in power due to population growth.  Even outside the beltway, toward Dulles airport out in Herndon, there is continued growth.  Home sales continue to be brisk around here, and the Rosslyn and Ballston areas inside the Beltway just keeping adding office space.

by Pachacutec on Mon Dec 13, 2004 at 11:00:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Re-alignment (none / 0)

NoVA may be trending Blue and may seem Blue compared with the rest of the State, but it's not hard to notice the difference by crossing the Potomac or seeing who gets elected (e.g., Frank Wolf or slimey Dems like Jim Moran) and comparing them to folks across the Potomac. I doubt that Connie Morella or Carol Schwartz-type Republican will emerge in a big way in NoVA and one finds much more in the way of politicos in bed with developers than in MD or even DC. The cultural divide is obvious when you cross the river--the driving style is different (lassiez faire rather than aggressive), the service in stores (passive rather than hostile like you get in DC & MD), etc. And things continue to get more "Red" as you cross from Arlington or Alexandria into Fairfax County, etc. Given the rises in Pentagon spending, the historic relationship between NoVA and the Pentagon and its contractors will probably keep a lot of the area Red, although many rank and file DoD (and CIA) types are unhappy with this particular administration.
by rich on Mon Dec 13, 2004 at 10:43:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Re-alignment (none / 0)

There is a massive shift if you look up the demographics of who lives in NOvA - with the tech corridors and telecom industries. As for the pentatgon and the like- as I said the military is a group of people that I think the Dems need to stop ceeding t the Republicans. The Republican record on the military doesn't match their rhectoric- and Dems need to start using this.
by bruh21 on Mon Dec 13, 2004 at 11:00:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Re-alignment (none / 0)

I live in Montgomery County, MD now and the only reason that I don't go to NOVA unless I have to is because of the traffic.  Traffic is even worse in NOVA than in Montgomery County, MD. Also, IMO the people who designed the road system there must have dropped acid before they decided where to put their roads because sometimes I think the layout of the roads is worse than in lower Manhattan, NYC and more confusing (at times) than the D.C.  
by LionelEHutz on Mon Dec 13, 2004 at 10:20:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Re-alignment (none / 0)

Haven't you ever noticed that the roads in NoVa are simply the colonial and ante bellum paths paved with bituminous concrete?  They've barely widened the roads, as evidenced by the trees and shrubs which line the roads in NoVa.  Everytime I drive there I keep hearing masses of men humming Dixie while they tramp along to their reward.  I can understand why you try to avoid the place, because the road net is ante bellum, and I'm not talking about WW2.
by VizierVic on Mon Dec 13, 2004 at 10:37:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Dems can win in South and West (none / 0)

I disagree that the Dems should chase around after Southern voters by ruling-out non-Southern presidential candidates or running as "conservatives".

However, I also disagree that the South should be written off.

The Dems need to retool the message. The party needs to innovate on issues. It should advocate for pragmatic policies that are good politics. While it shouldn't symbolically pillory traditional Dem interest groups, traditionally Dem interest groups shouldn't be sacred cows either.

The right mix of good policies and anti-establishment style will make the Dems viable in the South and the West.

Rrrinnggg... Time to change the government.
by Carl Nyberg on Mon Dec 13, 2004 at 11:14:28 AM EST

Perot Voters (none / 0)

Small point, but I think an important one.

Many Democrats underestimate the effect of eight years of "Clinton Scandals" topped off by the impeachment.  The Clinton/Lewinsky affair killed us in 2000.

The Republicans were able to tag Gore with the through the alleged fund-raising improprieties.  Democrats across the board suffer from the association with a president perceived to be corrupt and dishonest, even if he was successful.  It doesn't matter that there was nothing there.  The charge of scandal was in the news, allegations were made and never successfully refuted.  The charges of corruption against Clinton, other than Lewinsky, were not widely understood, but they were believed.

The charge of corruption is toxic for anyone trying to attract the Perot Voters.  They believe all politicians are corrupt to begin with.  Any confirmation of this belief leads to rejection.

This was one of the issues that Kerry/Edwards and the DNC foolishly left out of the campaign. Sure, there were references to Halliburton and the like, but no developed, comprehensive charges of corruption, even though it is certainly there.  Bush/Cheney never really had to defend themselves, which is proof that the charges were not heard by the majority of Americans.

When Democrats consider the ways in which they need to change to get back to majority status, they have to include cleaning up the party's image.  Getting rid of the DLC/corporate connections will help, but it will require more.  A relentless campaign against corruption and cronyism.

by James Earl on Mon Dec 13, 2004 at 11:22:52 AM EST

On the 'electability' smokescreen (none / 0)

The main post concludes its platform study
by zoning in on 'electability'.

Assumptions:

  1. Perot Helped Bush
  2. The lines are ideological
  3. The south will not be won

If you look at the failed battle plan of
Fredericksburg, in the civil war,
you may recall two dissenting union
generals that tried to reverse
US Grant's drive across the river.

Grants reply

  1. The new reinforcements won't help them
  2. Their defense lines are soft
  3. The south can be defeated by force of number

Unfortunately,

  1. The ragtags banded together quickly
  2. The defense lines were hard as stone
  3. Men fighting for independence hide well

As such, the Union army was slaughtered.
Man after man fell, trying to get the pontoon
bridge up - first by sharpshooters,
then crossing. Finally the union army
was laid waste at the foot of
the lines of the rebels, crashing
like waves on solid stone as they
perished in the onslaught of carefully
laid out shot and ball launched
at them from behind stone field walls.

Newt did a great study of Grant.
I have yet to look at it but I'm looking
forward to it.

Campaigns are war. The dems did run a
pro-gay marriage candidate during a
fierce and bloody overseas war.

The insurgents probably helped them more
than they hurt them... seeing where I'm going
with this..?

Here's the thing. This analysis could be
improved if:

1. The base statistical unit is Exurbia/
    metroplexes. Not states.

2. Bring in platform drivers as the base
   unit of your third party analysis
   (ie, perot financial vs. perot social. etc.)

Correct for Disintermediating effects
shake well, and ad  <-- no typo a twist of lime.
>:)

by turnerbroadcasting on Mon Dec 13, 2004 at 12:21:57 PM EST

Thoughts (3.00 / 0)

Second, regional pride.  Despite the changing demographics, I believe the south still contains a strong measure of regional identity and that this feeling is reflected in voting behavior.

I think this is true, but I also think y'all are ignoring a massive issue: the urban vs. rural vote in the South.

Look at TN.  About a third of the voters in the state - a million or so - are in Nashville and Memphis, both of which went for Kerry by ten points.  The exurbs, however, and the rest of the state went red by such a margin that Bush won by 13 points.

So.  What you're dealing with is a situation where you already have a certain natural Democratic base that's strongly still there, but you've got to find a way to reach those rural folks, and that's where the 'regional identity' is strongest.

You're right that you're going to have to have a conservative candidate to do it, and that it doesn't matter one whit whether that person is a Southerner.

There are two or three major issues that hamstring us on the rural vote every time.

1.)  Guns.  The NRA pours money in here and runs ads in small papers and puts up billboards with pictures of John Kerry dressed up as a French poodle, and manipulates Congressional votes to take away MAC-10s on city streets to say that Democrats want to take guns away from rural hunters.  It's not like the DNC would have to work very hard to combat this - since in this election they did 100% of nothing to even counter it.  They think the way to win elections is to hire high-priced consultants, so it would never occur to them to listen to anybody about what's happening at the micro level.

2.) Pro-choice.  Remember many rural Southerners are very, very church-based.  I don't know how religious many of them are, since lots of people mouth the doctrine, don't really believe it, and yet go to church every Sunday because that's where their small town life is centered.  They vote Republican because all their friends do.  It's about that simple.  There are some people who really think abortion is baby-killing, but there are plenty more who think it's something they'd really rather not legislate.

3.) Culture war.  There's a lot of big-city resentment amongst small town folks.  They think big city people think they're stupid and incompetent, so they may be inclined to vote against anyone even vaguely associated with California or the East Coast.  This might be used against Republicans in the future, since we all know they talk folksy and then walk fat-cat.

For an interesting take on the regionalism aspect, head on over to http://www.massinc.org/commonwealth/new_map_exclusive/ten_regions.html.  My personal opinion is that there's some truth to the regional examination of vote totals as well.

by Eleanor A on Mon Dec 13, 2004 at 12:37:28 PM EST

Onto something important (none / 0)

Chris,
I think you are definitely onto something in identifying this significant segment of the voting population--the "non-ideological reformers".  Stanley Greenberg was most impressed with what he calls "a cultural surge" that happened in the last 10 days of the campaign, after the debates were over. I am wondering if any of the groups he identifies in this "cultural surge" fall into the segment you are talking about:

"John Kerry and his campaign were in a position to win the presidency, falling
short at the end. While Kerry crossed the threshold on security, he was weighed down
by doubts about his convictions and authenticity and cultural baggage that left him short
with rural, many blue collar, non-college educated and union voters, and Hispanics. In the
end, Kerry was unable to make the economy a central point of choice and change or break
through with his vision for creating better jobs with more affordable health care.  
When that became apparent in the last week, large sections of downscale America
shifted, opting to vote their values, rather than their economic worries. That produced
a cultural surge at the end, an intensified polarization
 that took down many Democrats in rural states and the South,
 that diminished their blue collar support generally and
 that allowed George Bush to get a national majority from red America.

And later, he adds:

"Many of these downscale voters were concerned about economic problems as well as moral
decline. They mostly hung back from Bush, many providing him with less support than in
2000, until the final 10 days of the election. This pattern was most evident for the following
groups:
* Among white rural voters - key to what happened in so many battleground
states and in so many U.S. Senate races - Bush's vote was at only 57 percent,
6 points below where Bush stood in 2000. But about 10 days out,
they broke, ultimately giving Bush what he achieved four years earlier.
* Among white older non-college educated women, Bush's vote had fallen
to 45 percent, 5 points below his 2000 level, though the vote started to
break 10 days out and moved to Bush in the final weekend, ultimately
reaching 58 percent.
* The white older non-college educated men also lagged for Bush. In the
last week, Bush's vote stood at 52 percent, 6 points below the 2000 level,
but they broke Bush on Election Day.
* White seniors were lagging for Bush right to the end, with Bush 4 points
below the 2000 level. But with few material issues being debated in 2004
- no "lock box" - seniors voted their moral concerns, giving Bush a stunning
59 percent."

   RE: SOLVING THE PARADOX OF 2004
   Why America Wanted Change but Voted for
   Continuity  
http://www.democracycorps.com/reports/analyses/solving_the_paradox.pdf

Further, I could see people in this non-ideological-reformer segment saying in an exit poll that "moral issues" swayed their vote, and it wouldn't have anything to do with evangelical Christianity.  Does this make any sense?

joncehart
staten island, ny

by joncehart on Mon Dec 13, 2004 at 05:18:52 PM EST

The Solid (White) South (none / 0)

Chris, I agree again with your line of thought, as I did when you first posted on it.  The thing that people sometimes forget but need to be reminded of is the solidness of the (White) South, whichever  political party it supports.  For much of the New Deal era, the White South supported the Democrats - not because White Southerners bought into the progressive ideas of the Democratic Party but because the Democratic Party was willing to overlook racism in the South in order to stay in power.

That solidarity began to erode in the late 40s-early 50s when Truman integrated the armed forces and disappeared completely in the 60s when LBJ pushed through the Civil Rights Act.  The Democratic Party therefore broke its deal with the White South, which then forsook the Democrats.  The White South embraced the Republican Party, which  expressed has in ways, both directly and subtly, expressed its support of White Southern values.  

The Republican Party has grabbed the reins of government as a result of this "devil's bargain."   The bargain has changed a little now in that the White South doesn't openly express racist values any longer but champions conservative religious fundamentalist values (which even Black Southerners support).  If the White South is successful in getting its agenda implemented, I wouldn't be surprised to see them, in the throes of hubris, try to go for all the marbles and erode racial equality as well.  

This "devil's bargin" isn't without its pitfalls for the Republican Party.  The White South (the Religious Right) expects a payoff for its support of the Republicans and, in this term, the Republicans are going to have to start delivering on the Religious Right's agenda.  I believe if/when this happens, the Republicans are going to start losing support in the other geographical areas of the nation.  The Democratic Party needs to be ready to exploit their vulnerabilities, if/when these cracks of support for Republicans begin appearing.

I realize others will quibble with my line of reasoning but I've been watching these trends develop since the 50s.  I predicted the rise of the Republican strength in the White South and   think I may live long enough to see it eventually drag them down out of power as it did the Democrats.  The White South has effectively held the balance of power in national governance since  Reconstruction but it is grabbing for real power now.  It may eventually find it has lost all of its power in the process.      

by Mushinronsha on Mon Dec 13, 2004 at 07:50:28 PM EST

White south is another mistake (none / 0)

The south that voted for Bush was exurbia -
and the enclaves in Florida that want
government to stay away from nearly unbridled
growth.

Large parts of the south were untouched
by the recession. Particularly exurbia,

My point about focussing the study here
down to regions shows how
the rural vote went all over to Bush,
but he won the south by winning the perimeter
around the cities, and about half
of the interior of the cities.

thats a black vote. Tavis smiley is real.
Deal with it.

Another thing: the idea of 'regionalism'.
Yes, the south will move together as a voting
block, but its a cry from independence
of oppressive corporatism.

The south is winnable. Right now, the
Great Backlash Narrative is still focussed
squarely against the democrats, the nerve
of that move should impress you -
GOP in full control and yet they +will+
hang an albatross on the neck of
the Democrats. FLORIDA WILL go harder
right, and be unwinnable if the Dems
ignore it.

Dean is NOT POPULAR here.
He barely won 3rd place in South Carolina.

What we need to be aware of, when we're
at this juncture is the sheer need
for military thinking - the very survival
of the party is at stake. The GOP has
designs to change the rules of the senate.
And then they'll have power over the
Supreme Court.

When I wrote about the dying donkey
no-one listend to me. Then the GOP blew
the freaking doors off the Party.
Now I'm writing that if we choose
an incorrect strategy - and an incorrect
chairman of the DNC the party
will be gone, for certain.

No independent / free press. No audits
on elections. No opposition parties
in power +anywhere+. No congress,
senate, presidency, diplomatic corps -
nothing.

1. Discount the "states" view since
to win the elections we need popular wins,
and they're cross boundary. Base political unit
for the study should be 4 or so chunks
of the state, macro scale, or the counties
of all states. (index them by state name, county name.)

2. Treat the factors of the study as independent.
GOP have laid claim to far too many generalisms
in the south to identify their party, IE,
the flag, GBN, etc. to be trying to defeat them
by focussing on attacking the hologram
they put in your face. Look for the platform
drivers.

Do that, and you'll see a new map appear..
The south can be won, its loss
is a reflection of the ideal Zell Miller
laid out in "national party no more".

It isn't white. Its black folk in McMansions,
its mexicans who thought kerry was a sissy..
and its just an unprecedented grassroots
they have here... built from the christian
coalitions that are both black, and white.

Face reality that the donkey is dead
in South, look carefully and see if its
terminally ill in the north, midwest, and
west -

The only way out in my view is a totally
new party. And one that specifically excludes
the control mechanisms that are desperately
attempting to be claimed by elite groups of people.

The south uses the 'blogosphere' like no-ones
business. This is why you have to cross boundaries. Florida was affected by Atlanta,
for example.

But those people work back towards
church, and they're connected to real people.

The 'blogosphere' for the democrats is
disconnected. It has to have a way not only
to deal with the world (really, most bloggers
are just bad reporters doing a reporter's job
that's not already being done..)

and it has to be part of a world view.
no unity. no strength.

do the study again with the above,and
you'll see Bush is really blowing the doors
off most of the democratic runners
because he's allied to a grassroots
movement that simply bests the democrats
despite their rather vocal
and moneyed holdings.

by turnerbroadcasting on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 08:30:24 AM EST

I don't think that this 'coalition' can last... (none / 0)

For the first part, it's clearly based on a BigLie(TM) - that the Republican party CARES about the mainstream people of America. That lie is on shaky ground already, and I suspect that four years of Bushonomics will alienate many who currently vote Republican because they have swallowed the lie that the Reps. represent their interests.

That is why Bush has seen it fit to spend so much energy on wars, inciting fear of this and that, etc.

Because they know that their 'solutions' on the economy, health care, Social Security, etc. are not solutions at all, but are basically a WAR ON AMERICANS and that they CANNOT be looked at very closely...

Thats a serious problem for the Reps.

And they clearly know it...

by ultraworld on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 11:44:13 AM EST


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