Transforming the cultural war into votes

Here's a sample of something that I got from a staffer at one of the targeted congressional races in the midwest:
"Here's something you're going to hear from a lot of races in Bush winning districts. We were swamped with Republican turnout throughout the district...the wave was too high... In rural counties where working class people had just lost everything, including their pensions people seemed to be voting values more than pocketbook....the Republican base of non-voting Republicans seemed motivated to actually vote ... among new voters in traditional Republican areas and Evangelicals who vote seldom or sporadically vote we were hit hard... direct-mail attacking his character and calling him a liberal, and robo-calls by the right to life PAC and the NRCC suggesting the our candidate was for partial birth abortion and gay marriage. These went unanswered by the DCCC ...People were murmuring homophobic messages as they slept. The culture war this year was not fought on the presidential level, they fought it locally and in congressional districts so that Bush could seem clean of the hate much of his party were spewing and thus no one was accountable for hate."
This went unanswered. The above quote sources the thinking that has not been shamed for what it is-- prejudice. It was a direct appeal to ignorance by the NRCC. The Democratic Party is going to have to get into the cultural issues, we have to combat hate and ignorance with reality and information. For 60 years last century, the Democrats enjoyed the majority because the debate was mostly economic and about financial well-being.

Over the past 30 years, Republicans have figured out that they can win on the issue of values, they have the whole field to themselves, and they are the majority because of this tactic. Republicans define the frame, the issues, and the Democratic candidate. This is the root of the problem. Until it is addressed, until the opposition to Republican candidates enjoins the voters with cultural ideas and values that combat the frame and issues of the Republican Party, we'll lose.

In a non-economic sense, what are the Democratic Party's values? Without resorting to talk about health-care, wages, or economic security, what does the Democratic Party believe? Where is the progressive vision on the cultural level?

I'm not pretending to know the answers, and I'm certainly not going to blog out a 10,000 word post addressing these questions. I just know that the Democratic Party's strategy has failed to take a majority in the House for 5 elections in a row now in the House, that it's working on a second decade in the minority, and until we get down to persuading the people who are going to vote on the cultural issues, that's not going to change direction.

The Democratic Party has no voice on these issues. Now, there has developed, over the past 30-40 years in this country, a progressive agenda that speaks to these issues-- it's just not been made political enough at the national level. The philosophical basis of the Green Party voices these issues. It stands for something. Now, Nader's poisoned the Green Party's future here in the US, but the ideas are there for the taking.

Here, read them in a new light, it's a start:

The Democratic Party isn't just another political party. Democratic politics is a new and radical kind of politics guided by these core principles;

1. Humankind depends on the diversity of the natural world for its existence. We do not believe that other species are expendable.

2. The Earth's physical resources are finite. We threaten our future if we try to live beyond those means, so we must build a sustainable society that guarantees our long-term future.

3. Every person should be entitled to basic material security as of right.

4. Our actions should take account of the well-being of other nations, other species, and future generations. We should not pursue our well-being to the detriment of theirs.

5. A healthy society is based on voluntary co-operation between empowered individuals in a democratic society, free from discrimination whether based on race, colour, gender, sexual orientation, religion, social origin or any other prejudice.

6. We emphasise democratic participation and accountability by ensuring that decisions are taken at the closest practical level to those affected by them.

7. We look for non-violent solutions to conflict situations, which take into account the interests of minorities and future generations in order to achieve lasting settlements.

8. The success of a society cannot be measured by narrow economic indicators, but should take account of factors affecting the quality of life for all people: personal freedom, social equity, health, happiness and human fulfilment.

9. Electoral politics is not the only way to achieve change in society, and we will use a variety of methods to help affect change, providing those methods do not conflict with our core principles.

10. The Democratic Party puts changes in both values and lifestyles at the heart of the radical green agenda.

Traditional politics divides humans from nature and the individual from society. The rejection of this way of seeing the world is fundamental to Democratic philosophy. Rather than set them against each other, the Democratic Party seeks healthy interdependence of individual, nature and society.


Display:


flip side (3.00 / 1)

Mind you, the things in the post are mostly what people believe already, and are not going to win elections, but they will help get values into the core of the Democratic Party.

But I'm not only interested in presenting a progressive side of the equation.

We have to get down in the mud and combat the Republican thugs for using cultural issues and values while not living them, using language that will turn these evangelical voters away from voting for these Rovian bots. Terms like morality and values have to be used against the Republican Party, and the ideas they expose have to be framed as ignorant and full of prejudice, so that people will not get a free ride on their vote in their consciousness.  

There's a certain amount of people that are going to vote hate, and they'll vote hate no matter what, but let's not let them get away with it for free.

by Jerome Armstrong on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 09:24:16 PM EST

Re: flip side (none / 0)

I think they are intimidating our voters, stealing votes in any precent they can, wooing the ignorant on the hot button cultual issues and lying constantly on their sympathetic corporate media.

We might formulate the perfect cultural message we can devise but that will not defeat their tactics and we will continue to lose.

by leschwartz on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 11:29:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: flip side (none / 0)

I disagree on the "tactics" argument.  We have improved and need to continue to improve, but this time that is not where the election was lost (discounting Diebold fraud for which there is no evidence).

The fundamental problem democrats have is summed up in this phrase you wrote: "wooing the ignorant on the hot button cultual issues"

That isn't a tactic, and it is insulting to the people for whom these issues are very important.  Where we have failed is in framing our views in a way to appeal to people who value these issues (for example by pointing out that the abortion rate has increased under Bush after decreasing under Clinton).  Also, in not staking out strong enough positions of our own to counteract those cultural issues.  If the Iraq policies are similar, NAFTA is similar, taxes is similar (except for the top 2%), etc then people have no reason to break away from their moral values in casting a vote.

I don't think Dems have lost touch with American morals, but I do think they've forgotten how to talk about it unabashedly.  

by PghArch on Thu Nov 04, 2004 at 11:28:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Its tactics, not culture wars (2.50 / 2)


We are entitled to our cultural view and practices, they are entitled to theirs.

This has nothing to do with why we lost.

We lost because of our TACTICS, not becasue of our stands on the issues or the quality of our candidates.

They are willing to do anything to succeed, we are not.

They lie, steal elections, challenege voters, publish phony polls, sell a phony narrative thru the corporate media while we strive to be accurate and play by the rules as we wish them to be.

Unless we change our tactics we will lose forever.

The cultureal issue is a local issue in the sense that it has to be formulated locally.

Our main problem is tactics and the fact that our leadership has done nothing but compromise.

Our leadership is too gentelmanly to call them liars when they lie and the public are manipulated by their propaganda and by the coporate media.

If we fixate on cultural issues and candidates and if we do not change our methods and tactics we will continue losing.

by leschwartz on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 09:31:45 PM EST

Re: Its tactics, not culture wars (3.00 / 1)

Right, but what you just talked about was a cultural and value statement! Everything we do stems forth from some sense of values. The playing field the Republicans have established is on the values terrain with language and framing that works. It's their tactics of exploiting the values that people hold which gives them the power to influence those votes. So whatever tactics we use, are going to have to be ones that successfully defeat the republican tactics on the playing field that they are using to win the majority.
by Jerome Armstrong on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 09:52:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its tactics, not culture wars (3.00 / 1)

I'm not using a sematinc argument and that will not get us anywhere.

To date our values have prevented us from developing a response to the sort of tactics they have found so successful.

I don't think we can just do nothing more about their specific tactics and expect to have a different outcome next time.

For example, we have to do somthing about the vote challenges. We hoped the legal route would work, it seems to have dead ended in their favor in the courts.  

Unless we neutralize that tactic (for example) they can continue to use it in tight races, and given the likely two nation scenario we have, close elections will be the rule in important swing states.

So if it takes a little modification of our values to find a different response to the voter challanges I am for that becuase I'd rather have our guys win. But the realization we need now is not so much a debate over values as it is a debate over what we are willing to do specifically to overcome their tactics. How many losses are we willing to endure before we are willing to change our approach?

This is just one examaple, I have been amazed to find people thinking its enough to just prove  they are lying about something and communicate that within our community as if that is a solution. Its not, the damage has been done and the public in general does not hear our side of the issue.

I agree with your point about establishing frames to put forward our world view but the problem there is that we wait for election season or for the vote on some crucial bill in congress before we get a message out. That stratagy is also failing.

We need full time people available at all times and proactively carrying out our message and our frame of the issue, not just in the election season, and especially not just communicating amonst ourselves.

At this point I hope there will be some sort of multi-coalition meeting to devise a plan to move forward among the consituency groups that are still with us.

And my hope further is that it will be realized that our problem is not the specifics of the values war and framing they have been using, they are entitled to that, but it is the tactics we have been employing that are not working for us.

by leschwartz on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 10:21:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its tactics, not culture wars (none / 0)

OK, those are addressing different issues than the values argument, I see. Yes, there are a lot of institutional tactics that the Republicans have employed.

Like, why the heck are people having to stand in line for hours to vote?  Especially in more urban areas, compared with Democratic ones. That's got to be fixed, but the Republicans have no interest in making it easy for the urban areas to vote.

by Jerome Armstrong on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 11:02:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its tactics, not culture wars (3.00 / 1)

Exactly right, that is our constituency and they deliberately make it hard for us to vote.

They intimidate our voters - its a full time project for them they are very well prepared when the election is in progress and we are defensively waiting for them do do again what they did before without a better stratagy to fight it.

What I am saying is that we need to find steps that will defeat those tactics and that we have not found them.

Conferences among activitst to discuess these issues within our consituencies is not getting the job done.

Perhaps some sort of community based out reach that helps people who need help and also at the same time un-ashamadly lets them know that the people who are providing the help are democrats
and that we are decent people who are working to try to alieviate the fundimental problems they are facing would be way to build our constituency.

We have 1st generation latinos now that identify themselves as Republicans and self identify on surveys as having earned incomes in the top 1% of the population when they do not earn anythink like those incomes.

by leschwartz on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 11:18:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its tactics, not culture wars (3.00 / 1)

Fighting voter suppression is an expression of our values.  And talking about it in terms of values is essential to (1) doing it effectively and (2) gaining the moral highground more generally.  

An either/or approach to values vs. tactics is inherintly self-defeating.

by Paul Rosenberg on Thu Nov 04, 2004 at 12:42:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its tactics, not culture wars (3.00 / 1)

"To date our values have prevented us from developing a response to the sort of tactics they have found so successful."

This isn't really true.  The history of the Democratic party in past decades is full of interesting little stories of dirty politics.  Google the name "Dick Tuck."  (Ignore any sex sites that come up.)

The Democratic Party used to have a greater willingness to get its hands dirty.  That runs contrary to lofty idealism.  When we get bogged down in lofty idealism, we lose.  We do need to know when and how to fight dirty, as well as when to be fair.

We lost this campaign in August.  We did well in the debates, and almost caught up again, but the damage had been done.  We didn't respond to the SBVT ads quickly enough, or forcefully enough.  We lost the initiative and allowed Kerry to be defined negatively with too many people.  We didn't turn the tables on Bush and attack him for waging the dirtiest campaign in modern memory.

We were caught flat-footed.  We were disorganized.  They fought dirty, very dirty, and they know it, and so do their supporters.  But they won, and winning is everything.  Four years from now, people will go, "Swift Boat what?" while they line up at the local draft board for service in Syria.

by Dumbo on Thu Nov 04, 2004 at 03:13:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its tactics, not culture wars (none / 0)

My thoughts exactly.  We weren't willing to fight as dirty as they did, and it made us look weak.
by beerwulf on Thu Nov 04, 2004 at 11:34:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its tactics, not culture wars (none / 0)

Yes.  In the coming years the Swifties & Willie Horton will be mentioned in the same breath, for the same reasons: lack of timely or appropriate response.  This Marquis of Queeensbury business has to go.  Maybe try "Kill Bill" instead?
by LJo on Thu Nov 04, 2004 at 10:52:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its tactics, not culture wars (none / 0)

So what tactics would replace current practice?  You mention the deceit of the republicans, are you suggesting we play their games?  If so, I'm out.  

They've been successful putting the allegation and half truth into the news cycle at the right time.  The truth and facts don't always fit nicely in the sound bite and the media has abdicated from the role of searching out facts and holding the speaker accountable.  "Objective coverage" means tell us the accusation and response with no regard for trutch and facts.  

The dems need to be ready to refute the BS-point by point-today till Nov 06 & Nov 08.  And it needs to be done in a way that captivates the "casual citizen".

Liberals need also to listen and react to conservative rhetoric.  Ever watched or listened to evangelicals or the far right?  Drives me nuts and its ugly.  But it's also mostly baseless, emotional triggers that fire up the uncritical masses.  

by underthehump on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 10:09:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its tactics, not culture wars (none / 0)

We need to put them on the defensive.

We don't have to lie and I am not advicating that.

What I am saying is that we just mainly stick to our truth and our views and put them forward as if this is a struggle of competing ideas for an intellectual audience.

Its not an intellectual audience.

So specifiecally we need to being home to people in stark terms just what their polices are doing to the counrty.

We had ads like that from Move-on and they were disavowed by the Democratic Party and our candidates.

We can't win that way. We had great ads, hard hitting from Move-on, we should have used t hem and we should have called them liars and manipulators when that in fact is what they are.

Kerry was intimidated by the right wing noise machine from calling Bush a liar, where did that compromise get us?

That is the sort of tactic I am saying we have to change.

I supported Dean because he was more of a fighter than Kerry.

But I realize Dean would have been just as likely to go down in flames becasue we do not have the support structure in place to back any candidate up when they are at risk, as they will be when we take on the GOP.

We have to be willing to fight, all of us and not back down from what we believe, and we do not have to fight this on their framing of the issues, that puts us on the defensive, that also is a losing stratagy.

by leschwartz on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 10:33:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its tactics, not culture wars (none / 0)

It's scary trying to figure out how to appeal to a non-intellectual populice.  

Bush somehow denied connection to the 527(?) ads and no one called him on it.  Every time Moveon ads made the news, I thought they were good but I suspect they were over the top for some.  

I think you're right about all of us fighting the fight, on the offensive.  

I was stunned to quiet by the surreal nature of Bush's first 3 years; kept thinking people would wake up and smell the coffee and it never happened.  I'm done with quiet; I want congress back in '06 and the White House in '08.  

Haven't quite figured out how to do it from liberal VT and our measly, predictable 3 electorals.  

by underthehump on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 10:54:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its tactics, not culture wars (none / 0)

The problem with Dean, however, to me, is aside from the war, he was so much more conservative than Kerry.  Kerry's record on the environment was one of the best, he has continued his opposition to the use of the death penalty in criminal law, where Dean opportunistically switched sides on that, etc. etc.  I was never sure, having watched Dean as governor of Vermont, where the idea that this man was a liberal came from, except that he appropriately opposed the war in Iraq.
by mady on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 11:17:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its tactics, not culture wars (none / 0)

"Dean as governor of Vermont"

is all you have to hear in most of the country to understand the liberal label.  Based on what I'm seeing and hearing the midwestern voters are correct.  The Democratic party really does need to come hang out in southern Ohio, West Virginia and Indiana and come to understand what folks there are thinking.  Because right now there is a big disconnect.

by PghArch on Thu Nov 04, 2004 at 10:52:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its tactics, not culture wars (3.00 / 1)

With all due respect...
I couldn't disagree more. We must accept the bitter, bitter truth that, at this time, there simply isn't a democratic coalition out there that can win a national election. Mobilization and tactics are beside the point. Who are we going to mobilize?

Doug Mullins

by alienelvis on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 10:28:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its tactics, not culture wars (none / 0)

And I disagree with your assement.

In the right environment our coalition will be unstopable.

If you want to live by their values, join them and support them and vote for their candidates.

Again, I say we failed on tactics not the GOP value wars.

Putting the whole issue on the values perspective is going to get us no where and just puts us on the defensive.

by leschwartz on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 10:42:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I've been thinking about this a lot (3.00 / 5)

And since I come from a conservative religious background, I have been mulling over what I think would appeal to the people I grew up with and the person I was once. Also, as an erstwhile writer, I want an idea that is easy to communicate, does not have to be explained much, is simple on the surface but allows complexity underneath, and has resonance beyond the echo chamber of those who agree with me.

So I landed on an approach so simple that I think most will skip right over it once they read it. But as a former director of brand development, that's the kind of idea I always found to have the most power in the marketplace of ideas.

I think we need to rebuild the Democratic Party platform on the simple idea that we are the Party of Freedom, with a platform focused on the Rights endowed upon us by our Creator, and the Responsiblity that comes with them.

I love that phrase from the Dec of Ind--it is so iconic and so powerful that most Americans think its in our Constitution. And I think we could own it. Dems have always been champions of civil rights and personal freedoms; tying that part of our party's history more clearly to both God and the creation myth of our country gives it resonance beyond just the abstract idea of freedom (though that is powerful too).

I think we could make a powerful argument that we want to protect your God-given rights, while the other team wants to take them away in the name of their God. Or that they want to give corporations more rights than they allow you, but since yours are endowed upon you by your Creator, why are corporations given more rights than you are in their legislation? Etc.

It sort of makes God the wedge issue--did God give us these rights. or did he/she give BushCo the right to take them away from us? I think many if not most Americans would take the word of the Founding Fathers over W's.

I think it would appeal to Libs and moderate Repubs and I also think that a significant part of the evangelical vote could be split off accordingly.

by ccobb on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 09:52:07 PM EST

How about adopting Barry Goldwater? (none / 0)

Slate had an article that asked a question I've been wondering for months. Why haven't the Democrats attacked Ashcroft? linked text

I'm not aware of a single Republican that can claim to have a single civil libertarian bone in their body. If there is one they are doing a marvelous job of maintaining their secret identity. I suspect there are a great number of people troubled by the Patriot Act and Ashcroft's war on civil liberties. There would probably be a huge number if the Democrats had bothered to explain the problem.

I think civil liberties is one of the Democrats strongest planks if someone would step forward and give the story some legs.

by Gary Boatwright on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 11:05:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I've been thinking about this a lot (none / 0)

Neo-libertarians :)  
Compassionate Libertarians
Sounds good to me.
by kfractal on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 11:12:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I've been thinking about this a lot (none / 0)

Get rid of the term "Liberal" even liberals run from it. Some to the tune of "Moral Freedom" would go over well
Voices in the Wilderness
by Wiseprince on Thu Nov 04, 2004 at 02:33:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I've been thinking about this a lot (none / 0)

Excellent, excellent, excellent!

I think the democratic party needs to clarify the values.  Smaller government (as evidenced by Clinton in comparison to Reagon or either Bush), less government telling you how to live.  And responsible freedom.

The theme of responsibility has huge implications.  Folks don't think any politicians are willing to take responsibility, and in turn politicians aren't willing to ask for responsibility or sacrifice from the voters.  We often quote JFK, but when is the last time a democrat ran on asking for "what you can do for your country".

Many people want to be told what to think, and the Repubs have taken advantage of this.  But they also want to be told what they can do, how they can help.  And that is a place where we can grab hold.  This really is getting down to the heart of what I believe.  We need a system that allows us to be free to make choices, take responsibility, and a thin net to catch us if the unexpected foils our plans, so that we can dust ourselves off and try again.

by PghArch on Thu Nov 04, 2004 at 11:00:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I agree with these ideas (none / 0)

However, the Greens are few in numbers and for the most part they voted Kerry, and we still lost.  We need to seek out moderate Republicans (Chaffee, Snow, Hagel, Lugar, e.g.) who are disenfranchised by Bush's dictatorial attitude.  That way we can bring America together.  The we're-right-and-they're-wrong approach is the Bush-Rove-Atwater/Nader approach.  The problem with that approach is that sooner or later, there is only one right person.  Hard to win an election that way.

We do need to answer attacks, especially attack on American values such as human rights.  Gay issues are not the issues of special interests; they are civil rights issues.  Marriage is a religous institution, and the churchs should do whatever they want.  However, we cannot deny the rights of Americans, supposedly endowed by the creater, to those with whom we have disagreements.  I believe this was the sort of thing that Dean had in mind in Vermont.

by shlenny on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 10:14:30 PM EST

Re: I agree with these ideas (3.00 / 1)

Jeeze, this exactly what we have already done and it does not work.

Compromizing with these a-holes and adopting thier stands on the issues and their vlaues gets us no-where.

Whenever we are on the defense and adapting to their world view and their vlues perspective and policies we lose.

Sorry I have to be so confrontation with you but - been  there done that and its a certain loser.

We have a solid set of constituencies, that are going to grow stronger in the right environment, I am not going to make a list, you know who they are.

by leschwartz on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 10:38:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I agree with these ideas (none / 0)

These sound like Ralph Nader's ideas, and now he is playing with puppets.  I do not want to see us in that position.

Clinton won in '92 by doing exactly what I advocate.  His position on abortion was that they should be rare and legal.  Sure NAFTA could be improved, but its hard to argue with free/fair trade.  We need to work on fare part of it.

This election  has been success for the precisely the reason stated by Dean in his recent email.  We have energized many your people.  Now we just need to turn them into effective politicians, like Barack Obama and Ken Salazar, who took GOP seats.

If you want every politician to be perfect (in your mind), then you ned up with a Bush/Nader model, which I reject.  

We must understand where the other side is coming from; the war on terror should tell us that.

by shlenny on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 11:17:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

ruthless (none / 0)

By seeking out moderate Republicans to form alliances with we destroy them. Not only were democrats thrown out (or denied) by Republicans, but in most primaries the moderate Republicans were thrown out by more conservative ones.
I actually think we'll do better off dividing their base using economic wedges to split some of the poor and middle class who vote values only
I somehow feel safer with Luger and Hegel in power right now - because (sad to say) they may offer the only braking capability to slow down the wingnut juggernaut.
by nholshouser on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 10:40:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ruthless (none / 0)

Seeking aliances and compromising with them just lost us the congress these past two plus years.

The great compromizers and equivicators are all losing their seats, Daschle, Gephardt, Kerry as a presidental candidate, etc.

If you don;t know by now that attempting to make the  Democratic party a nicer version of the GOP will not work, I wonder what sort of constanat series of losses it would take to make you realize that fact.

by leschwartz on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 10:45:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ruthless (none / 0)

No, no. We're talking about chipping away at their voters. The Republicans claim they are a party of ideology, but their just as much a collection of interest groups as the Democrats are. Clinton did this by making the party business friendly. Unfortunately, that was too much for many Democrats and progressives and helped fuel Nader's disasterous run in 2000. But there are ways to do this; frankly, Clinton's approach is not a bad one.
by Lee Scoresby on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 11:35:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I agree with these ideas (none / 0)

Kerry got the liberal Republicans.
Bush got the conservative Democrats.

Guess who won?

Believe it or not, the candidate of the working man (Bush) triumphed over the candidate of the wealthy (Kerry). (That is, according to how each group voted, not policy.)

The Democrats need to reclaim their old base of working class Americans.

by wayward on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 10:44:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I agree with these ideas (none / 0)

I agree with you.

Clinton help lose us the white working class democrats by supportng the exporintg of jobs and by his adolescent behavior.

But I think you are on the fight track when you can identify a consituency we lost and then identify which policies we support that will bering them back to our side.

Bush isn't offring them a better economy, he is just telling them their tax money will not go to a permanent underclass, (aka minorities).

Bush does appeal to the worst in people, his ideals are transparent and phoney, jongoistic.

But that has worked for both Reagan and Bush now despite the realities of their policies.

Edwards talked about "the two Americas" but this theme was dropped in the general election.

How much time was spent on talking about the growing poverty in America, and all  that relates to those issues, very little.

Snow said unemployment in the US was greatly exagerated. Incredible, that should have drawn a media response about the real and growing poverty in America. That is about values and that is soemthing we could win votes on.

It became all about "who is a better defender of the US against terrorism" and the GOP and corporate media brodcast day after day that their polling data shows Bush wins on this issue every time.

by leschwartz on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 11:04:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

How the fuck do we do that? (none / 0)

Working class Americans now vote for the canidate who is anti-gay and anti-abortion as possible, and the one who wants to blow up all them sand niggers.  They vote against their finacial interests.

The only issue I can see helping here is gun control.  We need canidates with 100% pro-NRA records.  Beyond that, I dunno.

by Geotpf on Thu Nov 04, 2004 at 12:08:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

We Want Rumsfeld's Head (none / 0)

Fire Rummy, Fire Rummy, Fire Rummy, Fire Rummy...

by astanhope on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 10:17:26 PM EST

Obama's Speech... (3.00 / 1)

...said this far more eloquently than the Green Platform. Obama also managed to invoke God without seeming like a member of the Taliban.

If we're looking for a primer on values, I suggest we look to the populism of FDR, Howard Dean, and Obama.

by Toadvine on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 11:03:00 PM EST

Re: Obama's Speech... (none / 0)

Yea, that's true, I just grabbed something to start the discussion. Obama's speech was awesome indeed.

by Jerome Armstrong on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 11:10:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Speech... (none / 0)

And an example of TR's "new nationalism" approach. Yes, I enjoy  beating dead horses...
by Lee Scoresby on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 11:31:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

How about valuing people over prophets (none / 0)


by LionelEHutz on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 11:10:20 PM EST

Mongiardo (none / 0)

One of the reasons I think he almost won was because he shamed Bunning by using a language that the christian fundamentals would hear, in stating that Bunning was breaking the ten commandments.  Wow, I mean, the guy nearly overcame a homophobic attack that we've seen down many a Democrat, in a very red state. I hope Dems in red states look at what Mongiardo did, cause he nearly won doing it... and if Bunning does retire, I think Mongiardo is gonna be favored to win.
by Jerome Armstrong on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 11:13:41 PM EST

We don't need huge fixes for a small problem (none / 0)

We need a couple of simple issues in several categories. On economic issues the minimum wage is an issue that polls extremely well.

Kerry's health care plan is going to become a bigger winner as more companies abandon their employees health care plans or raise premiums.

Iraq and the middle east will probably become a deeper quagmire and bigger disaster over the next two years.

The environment and Bush's record is going to go furthur downhill. No drastic policy changes are required on this issue.

Throw in a couple of easy to understand social justice issues and you have a campaign. If it gets any longer than this post we will lose again.

We don't need to try and educate the whole damn country on forty different issues. Keep it simple. If that doesn't work, simplify, simplify, simplify.

by Gary Boatwright on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 11:16:21 PM EST

Roots (none / 0)

I think the party needs to find its progressive roots from the pre-Joseph-McCarthy era.  The cold war took away the language of the domestic left, and we need to find away to return it to the mainstream of our culture.

Mady

by mady on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 11:23:04 PM EST

Yes (none / 0)

But what are you going to do about the bottom line wedges they have that work every time.  What Nader rejected (to howls of democratic outrage) as gonadal politics.  How are you going to top fag bashing with appeals to anything else?  Really, anything?  Liberty?  Who cares.  God's creation?  Yeah, sure.  Fags kissing?  OH MY GOD, SWEET JESUS SAVE US!

How are you going to fight that?  And that's how they won, in case you hadn't noticed.  That's how they will continue to win.

by rfr on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 11:53:25 PM EST

Re: Yes (none / 0)

The Republicans have realized an unpleasant truth. Dividing the country is the best way to ensure that your base is solid. Not based on what's right or wrong but I was thinking that playing to the fears of Muslims and Arabs would have been a smart way to strenghting a new democratic base. It was said that in virginia the republicans were essentially saying the democrats would take away the bible. I'm sure that if you told arabs that they would no longer to worship their God or something to that effect would give democrats a new stronghold.
Of course that doesn't really take into account the demographics of it all
Voices in the Wilderness
by Wiseprince on Thu Nov 04, 2004 at 02:51:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

fwiw (none / 0)

For what it's worth, here is what I think went wrong, and it started many years ago, and will take many years to fix.
30 years ago, the democratic party was a large coalition of groups with different agendas that were willing to compromise with each other in order to gain power and enact portions of their agenda, even if it meant compromising their beliefs on issues that were less important to an individual group..... Contrast that with the republicans of the past, a small monolithic block that all shared an identical political philosophy but never got much of their vision enacted.

Fast forward to today, Which party do these descriptions now fit? The republicans have succeded because they have become "the big tent". Social liberals, social conservatives,Pro-life, pro choice, libertarian, Fiscal conservatives, fiscal "big spenders" all have a place in the republican party.... The democrats however today are much more narrow in scope,where are the pro-life dems? Dems who are Centrist in political leanings? The answer is they are leaving the party because the party no longer welcomes them.

It seems to me we have a choice. Either broaden our base, or resign ourselves to decades of political oblivion. I've seen alot of talk about continuing the fight, fine!! I agree, but the fight is to regain the center of american politics, not to try to pull the country to the left. I am as worried about the far right wackjobs as anyone, but only a little less worried about the wackjobs on the left. And america, as divided as it is, has spoken. When given a chioce between the left and the right, it will choose the right. As democrats,   (moderate, bleeding heart, progressives etc),Would you rather have a right wing Govt. you hate? Or a centrist Govt. that you had a part in electing? That is the question the left must decide before the next election. The DLC recognized this, the election and re-election of Clinton proved this. The lesson has been there all along, let's get to work!!!  

by Timby on Thu Nov 04, 2004 at 12:17:33 AM EST

I'm not sure the Repubs have a big tent (none / 0)

Who are the civil libertarians? I think we can win big chunks of electoral real estate with a stronger, or maybe just a better vocalized, libertarian platform. Why didn't Kerry and Edwards even mention Ashcroft's name?

They have two or three pro-choice office holders. Aside from Arnold I can't name a single one, but I know there are a couple. We don't need to go pro-life, we just have to abandon partial birth. Do the same thing the Republicans do. Vote against it and let the S.C. clean up the mess. Of course, this probably won't work after the second Bush appointment.

Who are the fiscal conservatives? If there are more than a half-dozen fiscal conservatives in the Republican party they have been very discreet lately. I think Kerry picked up the fiscal conservative ball and ran with it. If Democrats keep hammering fiscal conservatism for the next two years I think they can make some real headway in 2006.

by Gary Boatwright on Thu Nov 04, 2004 at 12:25:39 AM EST

Re: I'm not sure the Repubs have a big tent (none / 0)

I didn't mean civil libertarian, I meant libertairian (all govt is evil types). As for pro coice repubs, there are plenty, Rudy and Pataki in NY come to mind. For Fiscal Conservatives look to Mcain. Your point about fiscal Conservatism is well taken though, Dems need to lose the image of tax and spend liberalism.
by Timby on Thu Nov 04, 2004 at 12:49:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Both/And (3.00 / 2)

It's tactics and culture war. Thuggish conservatism is both. The response has to be both -- tho not necessarily thuggish.

On tactics: yes, we have been too gentlemanly. Kerry didn't want to use the word "lie" even when invited to do so at the third debate. Kerry often emphasized that his administration would tell the American people the TRUTH. He sometimes pounded the podium on the word. By IMPLICATION we were supposed to draw the conclusion that the Bushies were lying. Edwards' response to Cheny's three-month long river of apocalyptic puke was that Cheney was fearmongering. D'Uh!? To repeat the obvious is not a counterargument. But those are the rules of civil engagement. That's how gentlemen play the game. Well, that's fighting your house fire with a squirt gun. Exhibit "A" -- or is it "B" or "C" -- Kerry was not going to dignify the SwiftBoat bastards with a comment. As if to say, "Who in their right minds would believe that shit?" Simple point in the current environment: a lie unanswered sticks. And that one, in particular, awakened in the mind a ruinous question that Bush picked at until it became an open sore: would Kerry fight for the country if he wouldn't fight for himself? Game. Set. Match.

In the exposition of lies, we're going to get NO help from the MSM. Their job, apparently, is the maximization of their profit through the sale of solutions for yellow teeth and erectile dysfunction. And nothing rivets the attention of the consuming public, apparently, than a good public brawl. So, to hold the attention of their audiences through the next round of commercials, it's in their interest (so far) to present "each side" as if they were morally equal and each segment of their "news" as the next "round" of the brawl. This is essentially Jon Stewart's argument, made to "Nightline" and "Crossfire" and anyone else who would listen to him. For his effort, he ought to receive the country's highest civilian medal.

So the MSM is in league with our cultural obsession with entertainment, and tens of millions marinate in the sludge spewn by Drudge, Fox, Limbaugh, Hannity and a hundred copycats. And our answer is, what? Air America? The country is being burned to the ground and we have squirt guns. Would that Soros (perhaps) would pump a few hundred million into daytime radio. I have wondered if Obama wouldn't serve the country better behind a microphone four hours a day, five days a week, than in the Senate.

Smarter heads here and elsewhere have already noted that Bush's victory is the harvest of many seeds planted by some very determined people over the course of the last few decades. It will take a while before we have the infrastructure we need. But -- we need it. The thuggish right has been the only group making any noise in this country for 25 years. The ground game we put together for this election, including genuine cooperation among progressive groups, is but a small -- important -- start.

A small tactical point in the meantime: we can't sell our vision -- and I second Jerome's listing of key elements of it -- in ads bought in the last three months before an election. The MSM will not help on their own initiative, but they will take our ads. So: one major buy a week from every progressive group in the country, beamed into the south as well as the coasts and the midwest, on our issues and perspectives until our kids are grandparents. We're in this for the long haul. And it will be a LONG haul.

On the culture wars: one (longish) point. There is an important synergy at work between the tactics of the thuggish right and their cultural frame. In a phrase: They killed us on moral grounds. The middle and left think of this as an irony -- sanctioning murderous tactics on moral grounds is an irony, isn't it? And in enlightened company, anyone exposed to an irony as grotesque as this is supposed to laugh and give it up, aren't they? The illusion that the middle/left must face is that this (obvious?) irony can be appealed to in making an argument to the thuggish right. The synergy between their murderous tactics and their cultural frame is NOT ironic. It is LOGICAL. As Von Harnack said of the Catholic church a century ago (and he was talking about my church): Out of mercy for souls, it must be a repressive institution.

To draw out the doubled problem: they are not only required to kill us (on moral grounds) because God wants their victory, but that victory was played out on a stage set by moral concerns. Iraq isn't a war. It's a moral concern. Game. Set. Match.

An appeal to the "facts" or "the evidence" barely dents a "logical" circle like this. One of Clinton's best received lines as he was out shilling his book was that his administration governed successfully because it was based on the evidence, not on theology. But he was singing to the choir. Much as I loved Suskind's piece in the NYT, it was written to evoke a recoil in horror. His miscalulation, in my judgment, was that only the choir would sense the need to recoil. "Look what those people DO?" is not a transformative argument in this environment.

Much as Clinton might hate to admit it, his administration WAS governed by a theology. The precise point is that it was/is a theology that takes advice from the facts, the evidence.

Much as the middle/left might hate to face this -- it's not polite to talk about religion in public, is it? -- we are going to have to propose a theology that actually makes an argument to the theology of the thuggish right. Our agnostics and atheists may feel the need to sit this one out as we develop this part of our strategy, but they will sense the usefullness of this part of it being written, not least because any decent theology will defend the rights of agnostics and atheists, and because they will sense that it is one piece of a larger support system which defends their reading of the issues.

The clear and distinct advantage we have here is that there is available to us a theology which is vastly better than that of the thuggish right. It undergirds Jerome's 10 point platform. We're not all going to have to get PhDs in Rahner, Sobrino, and Ruether. But we're going to have to enlist those who do have them. And there are many ready to take up the cause. Most reputable Catholic theologians are furious with the right tilt among their bishops. (How many Catholic votes did we lose this year? Three million?) Most reputable theologians -- Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, and Muslim -- are not only not fundamentalists in their interpretation of their scriptures, they are a ready resource for a progressive religious interpretation of culture. We need to form explicit alliances with them if we have a snowball's chance of breaking through the conservative religious shell.

We got killed on moral grounds -- a particularly deadly synergy of tactics and cultural frame. Let's deal with that.    

         

by Jeff Donner on Thu Nov 04, 2004 at 12:52:54 AM EST

What's the matter with this? (none / 0)

We look forward to a world founded upon four essential human freedoms.
The first is freedom of speech and expression -- everywhere in the world.
The second is freedom of every person to worship God in his own way -- everywhere in the world.
The third is freedom from want . . . everywhere in the world.
The fourth is freedom from fear . . . anywhere in the world.

--President Franklin D. Roosevelt, Message to Congress, January 6, 1941

by James Earl on Thu Nov 04, 2004 at 12:58:15 AM EST

How about (none / 0)

Why can't we just intimidate Creationists the way they intimidate minorities? If they are superstitious enough to believe that the earth was created in 7 days who says they won't fall for the fear that by voting for any candidate - regardless of party - they are endorsing secularism. Also, drive down turnout among Fundamentalists by spreading rumors about local Republican politicians - whisper campaigns that so-and-so cheated on his wife, so-and-so's daughter had an abortion, so-and-so is gay. This kind of gutter politics is what Karl Rove used to gain power. Why not use it in response. Not at the national level, of course, where the blowback would be huge. But at the local level. Face it, the Republicans have tried to drive down our turnout for years. Why not return the favor? And I don't want to hear any whining about how we want more voters and they want fewer voters. That's BS. We want more of our voters and fewer of their voters. That's what it's all about. If they are going to motivate their ignorant base to come out to vote, and we know that their ignorant base is bigger than our base, then we need to drive down their base total any way we can.  Ignoring "moral" issues for economic ones won't work.  We need to fight on their turf and play by their dirty rules.
by elrod on Thu Nov 04, 2004 at 02:11:31 AM EST

How to win on values (3.00 / 2)

   Democrats continue to lose ground to Republicans for one reason: Republicans have, for the most part, been the only ones talking to Americans about values and morals, and they are crushing Democrats with it.  They tie values and morals to issues like abortion, gay rights, and stem cell research in a way that demonizes anyone who disagrees with their point of view.  We are caricatured as pro-baby-killing, tax-and-spend liberals pushing the gay agenda to ban the bible and teach gay sex in schools. We have got to recognize that this image exists, that we are not responding to it effectively, and that it's turning moderate value-conscious Americans (who make up a huge portion of the electorate) against us. Many people who vote Republican are fiscal conservatives, conflicted over abortion, stem cells, and gay rights, and uncomfortable with the divisiveness and extremism coming from the right-wing. The GOP for at least the last 10 years has been alieniating these moderate Republicans who are increasingly finding themselves pushed aside by the rabid evangelical minority of their own party (think Jim Jeffords, Hagel, Lugar).  They are turned off by the tone and the grotesque twisting of christian values of compassion and tolerance that leave no room for compromise or moderation.  And moderate undecided voters are uncomfortable with the divisiveness and the right-wing values rhetoric as well.  However, these moderate Republicans and undecideds continue to back the GOP because Democrats either remain silent on questions of morality, values, and religion, or respond weakly. We need to join this fight and pull away these moderates and undecideds from the GOP.
    We can do it by articulating the democratic values that have always been there with us: tolerance, responsibilty, and moderation (none of which contradict our progressive roots)...and these words need to filter into our discussion of almost every domestic issue.
  For example, we need to let Americans know that we want abortion to be rare, but legal and safe for women, rather than take the extreme and irresponsible step of outlawing abortion and making them somewhat less common, illegal, and deadly.  
  What's our position on gay rights? we should be saying that "although the idea of homosexuality may make many Democrats and Americans uncomfortable, we feel that to single out a group of people for discrimination contradicts our values of tolerance for all our citizens."  
  The economy?  We want sensible moderation of out-of-control Republican spending and defecits.  It's irresponsible to saddle our children with our debts.
  Why oppose tax cuts?  An irresponsible giveaway to the rich that endangers our economy.
  Why are we opposing ultra-conservative judical appointees?  Because we want to see moderate judges on the bench who reflect the values of the majority of americans, not just a small minority..we're sorry, but the Republicans refuse to come to a reasonable compromise.
  Why raise the minimum wage? To reward responsible, hard-working Americans!
   With regard to almost any right-wing domestic issue, we can say that the GOP is betraying the core american values of tolerance, responsibilty and moderation. They are playing to the extreme members of their party and refuse to come to a resonable, moderate compromise.
   William Saletan of Slate put it this way:  

"All the issues Democrats like to run on--education, the environment, the deficit, energy independence--would be vastly more powerful if united under a single theme. Clean up your mess. Take care of your children. Pay your debts. Stand on your own two feet. It all comes down to responsibility."  (here's the link: http://slate.com/id/2109128/ )

Democrats have got to start speaking the language of values. Barak Obama already knows this.  Read his speech from the the convention...he talks about unity, tolerance, moderation, fairness, justice, optimism, God, faith, and compromise and understanding between citizens of red states and blue states.  Even the GOP acknowledges that this guy has got a powerful message.  Further eveidence: He did extremely well in the "red" rural counties of Illinois last night.  We need to follow his example and show Americans that Democrats share and honor their values, while Republicans expolit them.

As for the issues of security, Irag, and terrorism, I'm sure that by the end of next year Iraq will be revealed as a complete debacle. And we'll see, unfortunately, that bin Laden and Islamic terrorism have grown stronger and more deadly under Bush's watch. The Republicans have been given enough rope to hang themselves, but we've got to be there to tie the noose.  

by MattM on Thu Nov 04, 2004 at 03:13:11 AM EST

Re: How to win on values (none / 0)

On many of these values issues, the Republicans have won the debate by focusing on only the most fringe elements of them.

For example, abortion. The vast majority of Americans want to keep abortion safe, legal, and rare. But for the most part, Republicans campaigning on abortion focus on things like stem cell research and parental notification requirements - fringe elements where they can lull pro-choice moderates into thinking they're reasonable. Those moderates don't realize that their so-called reasonable candidate could very well overturn Roe v. Wade, which most of America doesn't want to see happen.

Likewise, a lot of folks here have been talking about gay rights as being a too volatile issue. But really, most gay rights issues are becoming fairly mainstream. In 2004, the Republicans focused on gay marriage, not gay rights. Even Bush in the final week of the campaign reversed himself and said he would support gay civil unions. But even if we concede that either one is too much for most of America today, there are a host of other gay-related issues where polling indicates that most Americans support: workplace discrimination protections, for example, and hate crimes legislation.

We may have to proceed slowly and cautiously in some issues, but that doesn't mean we have to abandon them entirely.

by RoyalScribe on Thu Nov 04, 2004 at 12:14:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Taking ownership of the Moral Argument (3.00 / 2)

What we are talking about here is indeed about getting the language right so we do achieve ownership of a political moral argument that appeals to precisely the kind of people mentioned in the posted memo -- the folk in coal country, or the mill hands, or the waitress -- you name it.

I strongly recommend getting Thomas Frank's recent book, "What's the Matter with Kansas" and giving it a very careful read.  It is very painful for Progressives and Liberals -- but necessary.  Put simply, we've alienated too much of the working class base, and become untrustworthy.  But yea -- it can be reversed.  To an extent, we did it in Minnesota on Tuesday.

The problem began years ago -- but in 2002 the Republicans feasted on the hype after Paul Wellstone's memorial, and on election day we lost a slew of seats in the House and Senate.  Kept the Senate by 2 seats, we were down 15 in the House, and elected a Ideological Twins of Bush to all but one State Constitutional office in a 4 way race where minor parties deprived us of the chance to win.  Pawlenty won with 43% -- but minor parties took 14 points away from the DFL even though they are not rightists.  On Tuesday we won 13 seats in the State House back -- mostly moderate women candidates running in Suburban districts that Bush carried in the Presidential race.  We have one race being recounted -- but now the DFL has either a 67-67 tie, or is in the minority 66-68.  Races were won on fundamentals, school funding, transit, sound financial practices, Health Care, and an odd issue Pawlenty had put forward, should we solve our deficit problems by stealing the Indian Gaming Biz from the Indians.  (Pawlenty threated them with bringing the big boys in from Vegas as competition if they didn't hand over 25% of assets.)  The Campaign used tactics such as, "Is it Christian to again steal the White Buffalo from the Indians?"  That is precisely what I mean by taking ownership of the Moral Argument.  

Anyhow what happened Tuesday positions us to do well in 2006. We may even have two marginalized Republican State Senators ready to cross over and make the majority in the Senate four.  And I should add that many of our candidates recruited their Campaign Managers out of the Dean Campaign last spring when it folded.  They are getting rave reviews.  And to be honest if we want to have a say in redistricting after 2010 -- we have to hold Governorships and State Legislatures.  It took the Republicans 20 plus years to game their present outsized House margin -- we have to be in a position to undo their damage in 2010.  

by Sara on Thu Nov 04, 2004 at 04:50:46 AM EST

WE MUST REMOVE ABORTION ISSUE...NEW IDEAS..THEN (none / 0)

GO AFTER THE CATHOLIC VOTE LET THEM

HAVE THE BLASTED WHACKED OUT EVANGELICALS

WITH THERE LIBRARY OF TIM LEHAYE "LEFT BEHIND

BOOKS"  WE NEED TO SIT DOWN WITH THE FEMINISTS

AND WE NEED TO RETABLE ABORTION...EMPHASIS

MEDICAL TECHNOLOGY AND EARLY MORNING PILLS

FOR YOUNG WOMEN IN NEED AND GIVE ABORTION

DECISCION BACK TO THE STATES...I KNOW THROW

ROCKS AT ME...BUT WE CAN WIN ELECTIONS AND

DO MUCH BETTER FOR THIS COUNTRY WITH OUR

VISION....ABORTION OFF THE TABLE SOMEHOW

SOMEBODY PLEASE LETS THINK IT THROUGH.

by Aslanspal on Thu Nov 04, 2004 at 07:46:10 AM EST

I'm dubious (none / 0)

of a response to this election that suggests we need to raise, rather than lower, the prominence of our cultural differences with the GOP.  This is the road to permanent minority status.

Losing an election and then calling the majority bigots just isn't going to work.

The problem is that we have had less and less to say to working people the more our Democratic coalition is defined by the ideas of our upper class donors.  And believe it or not, while health care costs are a big problem, many working people are skeptical of the ability of the American government to run a better, less expensive system.

So we go to working people saying don't be bigots, vote your pocketbooks.  But a) people who are bigots don't think they're bigots, so they feel patronized; and b) our economic message is muted (the national party supports free trade, Kerry said little about the minimum wage, etc.)

Here in Illinois, we now do much better in some of the wealthiest precincts of the suburban North Shore than we do in most working class towns and cities around the state.  That doesn't happen because "we're right on the cultural issues, but we haven't framed them properly."  It's because the white lower middle class doesn't get excited by our economic solutions, and so hears little to get them to vote against their cultural biases.

by ne plus ultra on Thu Nov 04, 2004 at 08:05:28 AM EST

Re: I'm dubious (none / 0)

the majority voted to ban gay marriage in a large number of states.  by the standards argued here, they are bigots.  I tend to think they are, on this issue.  But I can get past that.  Among other things, most gays rate marriage high on their list of political priorities two years ago.  The issue exploded onto the scene, and many of us democrats thought, oh f*ck, this is going to really backfire, and sure enough, it did.

But if we now go back to the country and say, I don't think you understood what we were saying about gay marriage, gays are nice people and deserve to be married, we're going to lose even worse.  

Meanwhile, if we go back to the country with strong economic issues that appeal to our base in their pocketbooks, we'll win, and we'll carry our gay allies with us, and we won't bring up the idiocy of gay marriage for 20 years, but in the meantime, we'll have gay civil unions in many places, and the country will continue the amazing change that has taken place in the last 20 years in attitudes towards gay people, and then, we can address that issue when we have a chance in h*ll of winning.

But no, I don't want to fight your culture war just now.  Your culture war just rallied about 20% more people than have ever voted Republican to do so.  It absolutely destroyed us.  We need to do more tactical thinking about how to achieve our important goals instead of thinking of how righteous our goals are and how all reasonable people should rally to them.  They didn't.  We lost.  We didn't lose by a landslide, but we lost pretty badly, and the culture war was a big part of that.

by ne plus ultra on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 03:53:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

A Feedback Problem? (none / 0)

    Agree that the problem is not one of failing to frame the cultural issues properly.  The crucial question is why aren't we framing the economic issues in a way that connects with white lower middle-class voters? If someone's angry because they're about to lose their health benefits, then why don't they vote accordingly instead of--as is often the case--voting their cultural prejudices instead?  

    The Republicans have become masters of the Politics of Resentment, of displacing voter anger onto the issues that work in their favor. They've succeeded largely because the Democrats cling to an oversimplified utilitarian view of politicial behavior, i.e., if people feel economic pain they will automatically support the party that promises to relieve the pain. We should all be aware by now what a false assumption that is.

     The only way to frame economic issues in a way that resonates with the voters is to LISTEN TO THE VOTERS.  Some political figures have their own antennae for popular economic concerns. Obama has them, as does Edwards. Bobby Kennedy had them shortly before his death. But most progressives aren't so well-equipped.  They need constant feedback from the voters to stay in touch with their concerns. The big challenge for progressives over the next few years will be to create and sustain the means for obtaining feedback and ACTING on it.  

       

by LaughingHistorian on Thu Nov 04, 2004 at 09:32:52 AM EST

Re: A Feedback Problem? (none / 0)

Our guys spend more time talking to donors than they do talking with voters.  They learn the language of the donors.  Their basic sense of public opinion is guided by what they hear at fundraisers, which are key sources of interaction.  

So we speak forcefully about choice, Israel, even Andersen Consulting's move to Bermuda.  About gun control, which isn't an important issue in most working class neighborhoods, even though liberals (like me) tend to think that it would help those neighborhoods.

In the 90's we became the second party of free trade.  We became the party of deficit reduction.  Gore and Kerry hardly even talked about the minimum wage, which was a key issue in Clinton's landslide in '96.  

Kerry made it sound like outsourcing was all caused by obscure provisions in the tax code (I know, I know, it is one cause, however small) while Alan Keyes of all people, was arguing that we're not competing on a level playing field with Chinese companies because their workers are slaves.  Not that Keyes was successful with the issue, but it's a sign of what's happened when Allan Keyes is raising issues in defense of manufacturing workers that the Democrats now fear to touch.

And nobody has ever explained that the decline in the murder rate was an amazing Clinton success, because the overwhelmingly decline came in the few cities that used the "100,000 cops" money to adopt the Bratton policing strategy.  So now, our poorest neighborhoods may well drift back into the hellish violence of the Reagan/Bush I years, as we reestablish the policy of official neglect of our cities.  Yet no one ever even explained what happened, why urban neighborhoods became safer for the better part of a decade, so it's not an issue Democrats can exploit in the future.

by ne plus ultra on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 04:19:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Throwing out to see if it sticks... (none / 0)

 We need to address the Christian vs. Pharisee issue.The hypocrisy and recidivism of the Pharisees is astounding.By all measure W is a Pharisee,not a real Christian.How can we frame that discussion?
 Something has been niggling at my brain.If the Bible says there will never be peace in Israel,how could peace ever be allowed by an evangelical population?
 We need some progressive theologians here.
by bird on Thu Nov 04, 2004 at 09:54:12 AM EST

Re: Throwing out to see if it sticks... (none / 0)

     Better yet, we could take another look at the late 19th and early 20th century Social Gospel movement, which began as a reaction against the dog-eat-dog notions of Social Darwinism fashionable at the time.  

     For that matter, we could also revisit the origins of Christian Democracy, namely, the 1893 papal encyclicial Rerum Novarum calling for social and economic justice.

     Think about it.  Some of the most successful reform movements in American history have had a strong religious component. Consider the Civil Rights movement. Consider the Abolitionists.  The Reverend Henry Ward Beecher.  The Reverend Martin Luther King. Face it, a good many Americans--including those with very genuine economic problems--are simply never going to vote for an economic and social reform program that is framed exclusively in secular terms.  

     Does this mean progressives have to become cynical manipulators of voters whose religiosity they don't share?  Leave aside the fact that for sheer cynicism you can't beat the agnostic Karl Rove shepherding millions of evangelicals to the polls. Ponder this instead. Adopting a secular approach to solving society's problems not only doesn't exclude religious faith, it might actually entail religious faith.  Did King call on his followers to pray for civil rights?  Hell no.  He called on them to go out and GET civil rights and pray for the strength to do so non-violently.  Is there a contradiction here between "faith-based" and "reality-based"? Hypocrisy?  I don't see it.

by LaughingHistorian on Thu Nov 04, 2004 at 12:33:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Throwing out to see if it sticks... (none / 0)

I agree.  We need to understand that the mainstream position in this country is that people act out their religion.  So, to be a politician and hide your religious views becomes a source of distrust for many.  Likewise to advocate agnostic or atheist positions is readily interpretted as a desire to stamp out everyone's religions.  People project their own experiences onto others and religious views are a big blank to leave for them to fill in.

by PghArch on Thu Nov 04, 2004 at 12:40:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Throwing out to see if it sticks... (none / 0)

Remember a progressive theologian is still just talking to invisible beings in the sky.  We need to force the religious back into their basements where they belong. When did they get all brave, thinking it was normal and acceptable to believe that chanting verses was going to convince some imaginary being to bring assistance?  If we had someone running for office who sincerely believed in Santa Claus, we'd laugh them out of the room, but we allow people who put stock in equally ridiculous grandma-stories actually have responsibilities.
Everyone should believe in whatever they want, but it's time to go back to the days where the only acceptable behaviour is to KEEP IT TO YOURSELF.
by nittacci on Thu Nov 04, 2004 at 12:39:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That's a gross misunderstanding of religion (none / 0)

As a Christian I find this sort of talk offensive.  Do you know what you're talking about.  Please go read some theology before you make comments about "talking to invisible beings in the sky."
by Abby on Thu Nov 04, 2004 at 04:17:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Throwing out to see if it sticks... (none / 0)

The way to frame this debate is to point out that the modern Christianity is far more liberal than the Christianity Jesus started. The idea is not to be "progressive" but to demonstrate the hypocrisy of certain policies. If you want a Christian nation then you would have to go much further than repressing gay marriage. You would have to put a complete end to common law, fornication, idols (Which will be seen as an attack on Catholicism) and the worshiping of other gods. The "evangelicals" are not willing to do that because it doesn't really fit there needs...It's easy to go against gay marriage when it's popular but how many of the evangelicals are complaining about the revenue being generated by the selling of idols, gay porn, and the selling of tight clothes? No offense but have you seen the Bush twins dress? That is not how a biblical Conservative Christian woman would dress. By being conservative on certain issues i.e. gay marriage and not on others, common law, criminalizing sex before marriage is pure hypocrisy
Voices in the Wilderness
by Wiseprince on Thu Nov 04, 2004 at 01:47:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Quote (none / 0)

"When I despair, I remember that all through history the ways of truth and love have always won. There have
been tyrants, and murderers, and for a time they can seem invincible, but in the end they always fall. Think of it ... Always." -- Mohatma Gandhi

by Richard in PA on Thu Nov 04, 2004 at 11:00:21 AM EST

There's still more (none / 0)

I've recently started reading blogs and this is my first post.

I'm as shaken as anyone by the last few days.  Your right on the money when you say that the conservatives are simply in the majority.  Here's why, I think:
We're just fighting the wrong battles.  It really is "just" a culture war, and our hearts haven't been in it. We've let the conservatives get away with believing that it's OK to be intolerant, OK to hate, OK to steal and lie.  When I was a lad, some thiry years ago, if someone came around a college campus with their keen haircut and pictures of aborted fetuses and anti-gay bible quotes, we'd simply laugh them out of the place.  We made sure that it just wasn't cool to have these beliefs.  
I know this sounds trivial, this talk of what's "cool" but somewhere along the line, we became tolerant, starting thinking that everyone has a right to believe what they want, and THIS IS JUST NOT SO.  
When the Christian conservatives started feeling brave and came out of their holes and going mainstream, we responded by saying "Well, everyone has the right to religious belief," and this mistake enboldened them.
There was a time, not long ago, when religious people in this country were (quite rightly) considered a little nuts, a little potty, and if they came out to the street corner to preach, they were laughed back into their holes. But we HAD to be nice. We HAD to be tolerant.  Baloney.
Yeah, people can believe what they want, but when they start to try to influence the way the rest of us live, it's time to remind ourselves that THEY'RE TALKING TO INVISIBLE BEINGS!
Look at the map of election results. Let's be honest.  The red states are the ones where people are mostly stupid.  Take Kansas.  Where else could Sam Brownbeck become anything but a drooling nut sitting in the park?
Where are the engines of our culture, movies, music, fashion, art?  They're in the blue states.  We've ALWAYS been a minority, but we USED to use our cultural leverage, our educations, our superiority to beat the stupid back.  Now, we're all sweet.  Some of us got scared as we got older and even started going to church ourselves.  Now we're paying the price. We've let these nuts believe they're allowed to VOTE!  I'm dead serious, a little ridicule can go a long way toward putting the conservatives back into their bottles.  Conservatives are in fashion now.  Greed, fascism, hatred are all bare-breasted covergirls on the magazine racks of our national culture.  It's time to make it extremely uncool to disagree with us.. again.

by nittacci on Thu Nov 04, 2004 at 12:32:39 PM EST

Values To Values (none / 0)

New to Posting -- Will only get better --
In light of the religious movement that is going on in the United States I would argue the following:
The democrats simply will not win another election proclaiming abortion, gay marriage etc. with such a large "evangelical" turnout. The future of America can only be returned to the democrats if there is a third, more conservative party that would split the republican vote. Interestingly enough the Christianity that the so called "evangelicals" are teaching is NOT the Christianity of the bible and because of this there is still a much more conservative base out there. Consider a party that would be willing to suppress offensive television shows, the Simpsons for example, a party that would be willing to speak of laws against fornication, adultery and idolatry. This party would never have the broad appeal of the Republican Party but it would definitely have a strong enough of a base to be able to swing the vote to the democrats. I can go into this much more if any wish to embrace the concept. Any thoughts?

Voices in the Wilderness
by Wiseprince on Thu Nov 04, 2004 at 01:37:08 PM EST

one possible way to frame things (none / 0)

We believe in freedom.  Freedom means letting other people do things you think are wrong.  If we were all of the same religion, we wouldn't need freedom of religion.  If we all agreed about what to say and believe, we wouldn't need freedom of speech.  We support the freedom for gays to marry, not primarily because we believe in gay marriage, but because we believe in freedom.

we need to frame this tough issue and many others in ways that appeal to principles shared by all americans.  right now, they see us as "pandering to the gay lobby" rather than standing for something we believe in, and that's our own fault because we don't stand for anything affirmative on the issue.

by snaktime on Thu Nov 04, 2004 at 01:43:45 PM EST

Re: one possible way to frame things (none / 0)

Living in the South, let me tell you about some of my colleagues who voted for Bush.  Both were pro-choice, pro-stem cell research, pro-gun control SOUTHERNERS.  Both HATED Kerry and were scared shitless by him.

'Librul media' and 'librul from taxa-chusetts'.  If you say it enough, it becomes true.  Fuck the reasoning, fuck the facts.  'Don't make no difference.'

Bush wins in times of war.  'Strong and Wrong' we say.  They say 'you Dems dissing our troops again you pinko slimeballs?'  Game. set. match.

In times of peace and economics, we win since these arguments rely upon FACTS.  'It's the economy, stupid.'  We said that OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and Bush, Sr. was paralyzed, like a deer in the headlights.  "it's not that bad" he says.  "Holy shit, Batman, I guess Bush, Sr. LIKES a 6% unemploment rate." we shot back.  Game. Set. Match.

My point is this, during times of war, voters (especially Red State ones) are gonna vote with their hearts, not their wallets nor their brains.  Kerry would've been a great President, but there's a reason why incumbents during war are unbeatable - changing people's MINDS is difficult when their hearts are already set.  Fear works wonders sometimes.  Just ask the 'security' moms in fucking Memphis.  Like some Al-Quaeda operative is even THINKING where Memphis is.  Or Cleveland, or Toledo, for that matter.  These same security moms also STILL believe the wmd in Iraq B.S. as well.  Nothing we could really do there.

So, we have lots of soul-searching.  This reminds me of a classic business discussion: our company has the BETTER PRODUCT, but we have bad MARKETING.  

Our product/agenda, trumps GWB's by far.  Our marketing effort - and please don't give me the ground game bullshit, we all know the Repugs battled us to a draw there - was lacking.  

Our product is better, our MESSENGER and our MARKETING of that message didn't get through.

In conclusion:

  1.  Kerry was rated much higher on the economy and healthcare.
  2.  Kerry was viewed as weak and didn't respond well to the Swifties.  This is the one area that I would really, really critique him on.  
  3.  Kerry did not have a simple bumper sticker message. 'Help is on the way' blew chunks and was not a 'repeatable' type of catch-phrase.  Not Kerry's fault.
  4.  The 'values' deal and voting with your heart (not your brain) rises to the top during times of war.  Throw in the gay marriage deal and it's pretty much a perfect storm for GWB.  Neither the gay marriage deal or the war were controllable by Kerry, so I don't blame him for those either.

We don't need a policy shift.  GWB stunk up the joint - and we all know it - during his first term.  But a war, GREAT marketing ('trust', 'family', 'Kerry's a liberal from taxa-chusetts, REPETITION) and homophobia make it a pretty fair bet that Kerry didn't stand a chance.  The fact that it was close tells me that Kerry actually was a pretty solid candidate, after all.

I truly respect Kerry. I truly have no respect for Bush.  But again, I've always voted with my brain.  Our agenda is better when people vote with their brains, not with their hearts.  In life timing is everything and this election was about timing - gay marriage, OBL and the first presidential election after 9/11 - the better man lost due to the timing.

Chin up.  I KNOW we've got the better agenda.  Don't let the evangelicals and the media that just recently started fawning over them bother you.  Less than 35% of the population of Memphis - yeah, the buckle of the Bible Belt - is actually hard-core Evangelical.  

The 'morals' thing is, in my opinion, just a fancy way of saying people voted with their hearts, not their minds.  I don't think we should spend so much time obsessing over religious outreach and framing our discussion/debate.  People KNEW we had the better agenda, but fear won out.

 

by yankeeinmemphis on Thu Nov 04, 2004 at 02:32:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I AGREE WITH THE POST ..EVANGELICALS (none / 0)

ARE NOT TEACHING THE CHRISTIANITY OF THE BIBLE

WE MUST ALL BECOME THEOLOGIANS IN A WAY AND

CALL WHAT THEY ARE DOING FOR WHAT IT IS

HERESY AND BLASPHEMY...AND MAKE IT STICK

BECAUSE IT IS TRUE....THEY ARE THE PHARISEES

AND SANHENDRIN AND I USE THAT AS EXAMPLE NO

ATTACK ON JEWS INTENDED...ITS TO POINT OUT

THAT GETTING FILLED UP ON SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS

BREEDS ARROGANCE,EGO,POWER, AND CONTROL.

WHAT TIM AND BEVERLY LE HAYE TEACH IS

HERESY...RECONSTRUCTIONISM AND SCARING PEOPLE

TO JESUS..NO LOVE THERE.

BENNY HINN YES BENNY HINN AND TBN THE

PROSPERITY GOSPEL IS PURE HERESY AND BLASPHEMY

IT REALLY IS A PONZI SCHEME ..HISTORY PHARISEES

USED IT BY JACKING UP PRICES AT THE TEMPLE AND

MAKING THE POOR PAY AND FEEL GUILTY.

WEDGE ISSUES SOMEHOW ABORTION IS MURDER

BUT INVITRO VERTERILIZATION IS NOT...ALSO A

VERSE IN THE BIBLE SAYS "NOT TO CALL ANY BROTHER

A FOOL A MURDERER"  GIVE IT RIGHT BACK AT THEM

POINT OUT HOW THEY ARE MAKING WHOLE CLOTH OUT

OF A VERSE BUT YET IGNORING ANOTHER VERSE.

PAT ROBERTSON ANOTHER RECONSTRUCTIONIST

AND FINALLY THEY ARE RIGHT IT DOES NOT

SAY SEPERATION OF CHURCH AND STATE IN THE

CONSTITUTION...BUT SOMETING TRUMPS THAT

JESUS SAYS " RENDER TO CASEAR