Evolving Partisan Strength, Part One

The partisan index does not measure which party carried what state. Read this for an explination.--Chris

Three cheers for George McGovern!

It seems to me that since the election, just about every lefty blog out there has tried to console itself by comparing the new wave of activism this cycle to the wave of conservative activism that Barry Goldwater supposedly started back in 1964 and which was supposedly the catalyst for the future Republican takeover of power. After spending the last twenty hours neck deep in the historical partisan trends of all fifty states plus D.C., I would like to do my part to dispel what I feel is yet another unfortunate case of liberal wingnut worship. This is because the new Democratic coalition, in terms of small donor fundraising, on the ground activism and electorally, was first hinted at by George McGovern in 1972. The coalition and path to victory first pursued by McGovern is closer than ever to finally being realized. I think it is the path we must continue to pursue.

Part One: The Loss of the South

Yesterday, when I was putting together the partisan index chart, a couple of things became very clear to me. First, take a look at the five partisan index maps over the last ten cycles when a southern Democrat was at the top of the ticket (dark blue is for Democrat +7.0 or more, light blue is for Democrat by less than seven, pink is for Republican by les than seven, red is for Republican +7.0 or more):

1976

1980

1992

1996

2000
:

The trend I wish to point to in these five maps is the growing red in the south, which I define as AL, AR, FL, GA, KY, LA, MS, MO, NC, OK, SC, TN, TX, VA and WV. Here is the collective partisan index trend in these fifteen states over those five cycles:

Southern Partisan Index, In Electoral Votes
     Solid D  Lean D  Lean R   Solid R
1976   64      74	    27	      0
1980   80      22	    39	     25
1992   11	      0      66       102
1996   6       14	    47	    112      
2000   0	      0      58        121
For Carter, the south was not a swing region--it was actually the backbone of his electoral coalition. Under Carter, the southern states formed half of his solid partisan index states, and more than half of overall Demcoratic index states. By the time Gore ran, the gradual shift was complete, as not a single southern state had even a lean-Demcorat partisan index, and more than two-thirds of the southern electoral votes had a solid Republican partisan index. In 2004, AR, TN and WV have also moved into solid Republican territory, leaving FL, MO and VA as the only swing states in the entire region.

Remember that these numbers are only of the five most recent cycles when a southern Democrat was at the top of the ticket. Not even a southerner was able to prevent the slide of the south away from the Democratic camp in Presidential elections. I think what has happened in the south is part of the larger shift in American politics. The two parties, which really are just two coalitions, have ceased to be primarily regional and ethnic coalitions and have become primarily ideological coalitions. White, conservative southerners no longer vote for the party of the south, they vote for the party of conservatives. They will not vote for the southern candidate, they will vote for the conservative candidate.

More than anything else, that is our problem in the south. It is not about "values," or "religion," or the "military," or having a northeastern "elite" on top of the ticket. Instead, our problem in the south is ideology. Just look at the ideological gap in the fifteen southern states according to exit polls:

The first column shows the difference between the number of liberals as a percentage of the electorate in a state and the number of conservatives in the electorate of that state (Liberal Ideological Margin--Liberal IM). The second column shows Kerry's margin among moderates (Moderate Vote Margin--Moderate VM).
      Liberal IM    Moderate VM       
AL	-29	     -9
AR	-29	     +18
FL	-14	     +13
GA	-27	     +5
KY	-24	     -1
LA	-23	     -4
MS	-29	     +3
MO	-17	     +6
NC	-23	     +1
OK	-30	     -12
SC	-24	     +1
TN	-32	     +17
TX	-29	     +3
VA	-21	     +15
WV	-16	     +7
With the exception of Florida, the fifteen southern states are all among the twenty-five most conservative in the nation. In every single southern state, conservatives outnumber liberals by more than the nationwide margin (which was 34-21). This is why the south votes Republican: because Republicans have become the party of conservatives.

In the short term, the only way Democrats will be competitive in the south in a Presidential election is to nominate a conservative. This is not something I am willing to do. As much as I want to fight everywhere, for now in the south I think our fight needs to stay at the statewide level.

Part two of this series will be up in a few hours.



Display:


Evolving Partisan Strength (3.00 / 1)

This election was about "values" in the South.  The problem is that George Bush and Karl Rove were allowed to dictate the values, and the values were christian fundementalism, gay marriage and terrorism.  Democrats have lost touch with the traditional morals that they have always run on in the south.  That the outsourcing of jobs is immoral. Lack of health insurance is immoral.  Failing public education is immoral.  Poverty is immoral.  This is the platform of traditional core Democratic values that John Kerry failed communicate as effectively as Bush/Rove communicated their values.

The next Democratic candidate, wether it be a southerner or northener, needs to re-identify themselves with the working men and women of the south.  It's about time that the Democrats ran somebody with a proper working class background, somebody who will fight for the very values that elections used to be fought for.  Working class people aren't going to identify with a silverspooner wether he or she be a northerner or southerner.  So no Hillary, no Edwards, no Gore, no Kerry - and dare I say it - no Obama and his tired 'poor guy' act. The Democrats need to find somebody who actually is middle class and not pretending to be.

There are some positives to be taken from the partisan index maps.  While the south is there to be won back by the Democrats, I don't see the northeast and the west coast being won back by the Republicans any time soon.

by outspan on Sun Nov 21, 2004 at 04:31:38 PM EST

Re: Evolving Partisan Strength (none / 0)

I mostly agree. The only point I would challenge is the one about nominating someone from the middle class. What is more important is nominating someone like Clinton who can gain instant rapport with the Southern voter, and who is perceived as strong on defense, family, faith. That and associating "Republican" with a lot of corporate negatives (outsourcing, illegal immigration, ...).

Democrats don't have to "win the South" to win the next presidential election. Winning a few of the "border" states like Arkansas, Florida, Missouri, or Virginia will suffice nicely. Ohio would be a bonus.

by coldeye on Sun Nov 21, 2004 at 05:19:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Evolving Partisan Strength (3.00 / 1)

"I don't see the northeast and the west coast being won back by the Republicans any time soon."

Exactly.  As the South has shifted Republican, the Northeast and West Coast have shifted Democratic.  We don't need the South to win.  We need the upper midwest (Ohio, Iowa, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Michigan, and Pennsylvania), which is shifting our way in the partisan index, and the Southwest (New Mexico, Arizona, Colorado, and Nevada), which is also shifting our way with exception of Arizona.  Bringing together those states will give us a clear electoral majority, without sacrificing our progressive ideas to appeal to southern conservatives.  As population shifts continue, we will need to move towards Florida, Virginia, and North Carolina.  Florida's immigration should come our way in the long run, and the other two southern states are increasingly looking more like Maryland, and less like Mississippi and Alabama.

by Skaje on Sun Nov 21, 2004 at 05:24:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Silverspooners? (none / 0)

You seem to be casting a pretty wide net with your "silverspoon" label Outspan. Edwards and Obama have demonstrated their ability to speak to the hearts as well as the minds of middle class and working class voters.

Kitchen table economic issues are certainly going to be major factors in both '06 and '08. I think it's a little early to rule out every single candidate of national prominence. From what I've seen of Chris' analysis it doesn't look like there's any reason to rule out Hillary, Dean or Kerry either. In fact he may very well be leading up to quite the opposite conclusion.

I'm willing to wait for the other shoe to drop.

by Gary Boatwright on Sun Nov 21, 2004 at 06:15:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Silverspooners? (none / 0)

P.S. to outspan. I forgot to ask if there is anyone who meets your criteria of having a "proper working class background". Who are you suggesting that we should be looking at?
by Gary Boatwright on Sun Nov 21, 2004 at 06:18:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Silverspooners? (none / 0)

Somebody who perhaps was a millworker at some point in their lives, rather than somebody who shouts from the rooftops about being "the son of a millworker."  I guess what I'm looking for is a non-politician. ;)
by outspan on Sun Nov 21, 2004 at 07:08:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Evolving Partisan Strength (none / 0)

I have to take issue with the fact that you think the Democrats need to select someone with a working class background to appeal to southern voters. Just who exactly is George Bush? He is not the son of a share cropper, or the son of a mill worker, or even the son of a father who worked in a regular 9-5 job. In fact, GWB has never really worked an honest job himself. Frankly, I never here Harvard really touting the fact that he holds an MBA from HBS, as I think they are fairly embarrassed to admit that he attended HBS. Seems that he actually embodies the type of "silverspoon" candidate that you talk about the Democrats trying to run in the last few elections, and working class people seem to identify with him quite well. He may espouse their values, but his theory in practice is quite contrary.

Personally, it is the actions of a person that should matter and not what they say, and whoever our next candidate is (whether northerner, southerner, working class, or "liberal elitist") needs to run on a record of strong service to all people.

by Innov8 on Sun Nov 21, 2004 at 06:44:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Evolving Partisan Strength (none / 0)

George W. Bush, son of a millionaire ex-president, is definitely not working class.  You don't need to convince me on that one!  How Karl Rove managed to twice run Bush as a "regular guy" is beyond me.

When it came to winning over the middle class, let's face it, he outplayed Kerry with the values thing.  Kerry wasn't able to strike a chord when it came to traditional democratic middle class values.  "We want you to be able to buy into Blue Cross / Blue Shield" isn't the most convincing argument.  I had no idea what Blue Cross / Blue Shield is.  Kerry was unable to deliver a clear message when it came to traditional Democratic values.  When it came to ultra-conservative values, the Bush team were (unfortunately) pressing all the right buttons.

I guess what I'm saying is that the Bush team gave the middle class something to cling to, however unacceptable that thing was to you or me.  Kerry had nothing to offer the middle classes.  That's not because he's a northerner or a liberal, but simply because he was not able to communicate with the middle class.  The Kennedys were anything but middle class, but they could communicate.

It's a real shame, because if the Democrats had run a convincing "kitchen table" (as somebody said earlier) campaign then I think they might have won.

by outspan on Sun Nov 21, 2004 at 07:22:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Evolving Partisan Strength (none / 0)

Very well put... it's too bad that we can have an intelligent conversation and get out all our viewpoints amongst those who reflect the Democratic party and values without attacking each other, but we can't make a dent in the Republican noise machine. It just goes to show how they can't stand any dissent from the "talking points" and are really afraid of having an honest dialogue with the 56 million of us who disagree (either in part, or vehemently like most MyDD posters) with their position. I don't know about you, but it sure doesn't sound like a democracy for the people, by the people to me... more like Italy and party-Berlusconi... yuck!!
by Innov8 on Mon Nov 22, 2004 at 10:20:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Evolving Partisan Strength (none / 0)

We used to win working class votes because those folks believed that the Democrats shared their values not just in economics but on cultural issues.  The fact is that in the pre-Truman era, the Democrats were seen as tolerating some of the south's segergationist views.  Obviously, LBJ was right to taje the party in the direction of championing equal rights, but he also knew that meant losing support in the South for a generation.  Today, I don't think we can expect to win working class votes in the South by telling them we share their economic values if they think we are disdainful of their cultural values.  We may not be able to reach agreement on some of the "values" issues, but we should never make people feel dumb because they are religious and traditionalist.  Even if we tell people we'll help them economically, they won't vote for us if they feel that deep down we don't like them.
by bluestatespecial on Sun Nov 21, 2004 at 08:57:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

About those maps ... (none / 0)


How confident are you that those maps are accurate?

My recollection is that we carried Arizona, Florida, New Mexico and Oregon in '96, and New Mexico and Oregon again and Wisconsin in '00 ... but that's not what the maps reflect.

Admittedly, my memory is imperfect, but I'm pretty sure of those, and I think there are a number of other states whose votes are reflected incorrectly as well.

by Californian on Sun Nov 21, 2004 at 05:25:10 PM EST

Re: About those maps ... (none / 0)

Are you thinking of electoral votes? Because the "partisan index" doesn't match the electoral votes. The partisan index of a given state could be republican, but the state might have gone democratic in the presidential election.

Otherwise, I'm still not sure what we can learn from the partisan index


Nobody's right if everybody's wrong --Stephen Stills "For What It's Worth"
by vj on Sun Nov 21, 2004 at 05:40:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Don't forget the first effect (none / 0)

There's two factors at play here.  The first factor is the national popular vote, the second is the Partisan Index (difference of the state and national popular votes).  While I agree in general with the Partisan Index trend, it's not to be analyzed without mention of the national popular vote.

The first factor is the percentage the of national democrat votes over the republican after throwing out the third parties. It's the ratio (democrat-republican)/(democrat + republican). For each of these five elections was 1976  2.1, 1980 -9.2, 1992 6.9, 1996 9.4, 2000 0.5.

To show an extreme, Clinton got +16.1% and +18.6% over his rivals than Carter did in losing to Reagan.  You would not expect the Partisan Index to follow this popular vote difference in a parallel shift. Instead, there is a "stickyness" effect: you can only win the South by so much before you start gaining more of your votes from other regions (and so your Partisan Index in the South naturally goes down).

From this, I maintain that a popular Southerner can win the South, not by winning the Partisan Index, but by winning the popular vote. Admittedly, this is trending to be tougher to do, but not as impossible as implied by only the Partison Index.

Now, Gore had trouble winning the Partisan Index when he won the popular vote, but I hesitate to say the South characterised him as a Southerner. I don't believe that the 2000 election really belongs in this comparison.

by zigzig on Sun Nov 21, 2004 at 05:46:39 PM EST

Re: Don't forget the first effect (none / 0)

I should say this more precisely. A popular Southerner can win states in the South (besides FL, primarily along the Mississippi and Ohio rivers: AK, MO, KY, TN, WV, VA plus NC). But they have to win the popular votes in those states by overcoming the partisan index. By just looking at the partisan index, it looks imposible. But seeing how Clinton won the popular vote in 1996, it is possible to overcome the partisan index. But now, because of the trend, you have to be more popular than Clinton.
 
by zigzig on Sun Nov 21, 2004 at 06:42:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't forget the first effect (none / 0)

No disrespect intended to Bill Clinton, but I have no interest in another eight year presidency on the defensive.  I want to reclaim the agenda and end the conservative era.

Trying to pick of southern states is playing defensive politics.  I want a new majority and it won't be found by including the south, it will be found the same way the Republicans governed for 70 years, by isolating it.

If we would only look at history we would see the Republicans have given us a gift for the taking, the pre-New Deal Republican majority still exists, it's the progressive populist midwest, it's the coasts and the fast growing west.  It's ours if only we stop being obsessed with the South and reclaiming a lost coalition.  Let the Republicans have it!  It's a backwards looking losing political position more befitting them than the post-civil rights Democratic Party.

by rusrivman on Sun Nov 21, 2004 at 10:36:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't forget the first effect (none / 0)

I don't think winning Virginia or North Carolina is realistic.

Carter and Clinton both lost Virginia, both times they ran, despite being conservative southerners.  In fact, Virginia has only gone for the Democratic presidential candidate once since 1948, and that was in 1964 -- 40 years ago -- during LBJ's landslide.

Yes, Northern VA (i.e., the DC suburbs) is growing, but mostly out in the distant "exurbs" which tend to vote Republican.  For example, Loudon County, the 2nd fastest growing county in the nation, went for Bush by a 12-point margin, which is 2 points more than Virginia as a whole.  Stafford County, the 9th fastest growing, chose Bush by a 24-point margin.

Let's face it: 2008 is not going to reverse the prior 60 years in Virginia.

Similarly, North Carolina has only voted for the Democrat once since 1964, and that was in Carter's first race in '76. They didn't support Carter in 1980, and they didn't support Clinton either time he ran.  Kerry lost there by a nearly 13-point margin, despite having their native son John Edwards on the ticket!  This is the state that gave Jesse Helms 5 terms in the Senate; it's not giving its electoral votes to a Democrat.

by Horq on Mon Nov 22, 2004 at 12:05:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Great diary Chris (none / 0)

I keep saying we need to forget about recapturing the South.  We need to stop trying to recreate a dead Democratic coalition with southern white conservative/racists/evangelical/fundamentalists (pick your favorite term)  and start focusing on addressing the needs and progressive values of northern, coastal and selected western state citizens.
by rusrivman on Sun Nov 21, 2004 at 06:44:34 PM EST

Re: Great diary Chris (3.00 / 1)

I think this is the point Chris is making. I think it's entirely possible we can write off the south entirely. If we pick up Ohio, Nevada and New Mexico and keep the blue states we win.

And when we do we should stop sending the red states their blue state welfare payments.

by Gary Boatwright on Sun Nov 21, 2004 at 06:58:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Great diary Chris (none / 0)

You are completely wrong.

There are two reasons why writing off the South is bad.

First of all is the Senate. The South has a bunch of Senate seats. Combine the South with the Rocky Mountain and Great Plains states as solid Republican and that makes building a majority out of the rest of the country difficult, if not impossible.

Second is demographics. Al Gore just needed one more state to win. He didn't need Florida: New Hampshire would have done fine, as would Tennessee. However, the "blue states" lost electoral votes and the "red states" gained them due to the 2000 census. Kerry had a much more difficult time. A strategy designed for the 2004/2008 electoral map may be inadequate for the 2012 map. Also, consider that electoral votes are determined by the number of congressional districts, so writing off the South also hurts in the House if those states are the ones adding congressional districts and the "blue states" are the ones losing them.

Finally, Presidents should be national candidates, not regional candidates. What would have happened if Kerry had won Ohio (and the election) by a narrow margin, but lost the popular vote by a wide margin and had an extremely hostile congress. How, might I ask, would he have ever governed the country?

Bottom line: The Democrats must be a national party and they must compete in all fifty states.

by wayward on Sun Nov 21, 2004 at 07:09:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm not sure of that (3.00 / 1)

Writing off the south entirely may have been overstating it, but I think rusrivman is entirely correct in suggesting we can stop trying to cater to "southern white conservative/racists/evangelical/fundamentalists" and focus on our own strengths.

The Senate is going to be a problem regardless of what the party does. In the short term we need to focus on holding together our base and picking up another three percent.

Kerry was as much of a national candidate as Bush. All he had to do was pull in another 200k votes in Ohio (or take 100k from Bush). He could have governed the country the same way Clinton did, assuming he had Clinton's political skills (which I doubt by the way).  

I suspect the whole point of Chris' second post on this topic is going to be that we need to stop playing to our weaknesses and start playing to our strengths. Given the potential, even the likelihood, for terrible results in Iraq, combined with the likelihood of fiscal disaster from Bush's economic policies, there could be a huge swing towards Democrats in the next four to six years.

How many swing voters were not impressed with Kerry? How many swing voters stuck with Bush soley because they didn't want to switch horses in the middle of a war? How many swing voters will move back to Democrats if we start addressing the kitchen table economic issues that are going to become even bigger in the next few years?

I think what Chris is suggesting is that we fight at the state and local level in the red states, but play to our national strength in the blue states, instead of trying to bribe them with a "faux conservative" or a southerner solely for the purpose of winning southern states.

Let's see where Chris is going with this, but it certainly looks intriguing.

by Gary Boatwright on Sun Nov 21, 2004 at 07:36:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Great diary Chris (none / 0)

I agree with you on this. We cannot simply write off the south. We should, however, determine how we want to compete there. Hopefully not by compromising core values.
Nobody's right if everybody's wrong --Stephen Stills "For What It's Worth"
by vj on Sun Nov 21, 2004 at 07:39:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Great diary Chris (3.00 / 1)

I don't think core values should be compromised either.  What needs to be done however is that the core democratic values, the New and Fair Deal values, are made well known again.  Rove shouldn't be allowed to dicate the Democratic campaign ever again.
by outspan on Sun Nov 21, 2004 at 07:48:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Great diary Chris (none / 0)

Hi Outspun

You are exactly right. The south hasn't gone Republican because they agree that the rich need more tax cuts and that the minimum wage is too high. The deep south went Republican initially because of civil rights, but they stayed their (and the border states like the state I grew up in (Kentukcy) went Republican because they saw the Dems as the party of pathological behavior and against the decent values of hard working Americans. That's of course a grotesque lie, but it's what we are up against. There is nothing alien about the Democratic belief that we are all in this together and that everyone ought to have an equal opportunity to realize their dreams. Those beliefs are quintisential American beliefs, and they are part and parcel of the Gospel of Christ so they can reach deep into the hearts of many of my Christian brothers and sisters who have been voting Republican.  But we need to talk explicitly about those values, we need to talk more about our values and less about the policies that derive from those values. We don't need to nominate a conservative--we ought not nominate a conservative. If we can't win with an honest discussion about our values then we need to be prepared to lose and convince people to accept our values. But we have to be able to at least talk to the conservative working class that thinks Dems think their dumb.

Keith

by keith johnson on Sun Nov 21, 2004 at 09:17:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Great diary Chris (none / 0)

No offense Keith, but this is exactly what we don't need to do.  I have no interest in living in a christian theocracy, or creating a message that suggests a faux theocracy.  We are a secular pluralistic society and we need to plainly reteach that this is what makes America great.

When thinking Christians realize our values better fit their morality than Republicans, then they will vote for us.  But please, not because we attempt to claim religion.

Regarding southern Senators, I hate to break it, but the South is already solidly Republican.  We ran a bunch of conservative Christian Democratic candidates and everyone of them lost!  It is time we focus on more fertile terrain, the Northeast, Midwest, West Coast, and selected western states.

For example, we should be aiming to take the other Colorado senate seat.  We should be aiming for New Mexico's second seat when Domenici retires. We should be looking at Arizona.  Nevada is getting more Democratic every year.  We must work on turning the upper midwest solid blue.  There is no excuse for the Dakotas being red.  They have a populist/progessive history that has been lost.  We need to address their economic needs and their traditional communal economic and social values.  Daschle lost not because he was a liberal, he lost because he became too ingrained in the D.C. establishment.  Our base there wants grassroots populists, not the D.C. power elite.  A majority is clearly acheivable if we work in the right places and the South isn't it.

The Republicans saw the opportunity and made a concerted effort to take the South.  They did, and sold their souls in the process. We can make a concerted effort to win back the mid-west and west and reclaim ours in the process.

by rusrivman on Sun Nov 21, 2004 at 10:09:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Great diary Chris (none / 0)

Hi Rusrivman

My bad. I didn't mean to imply that Dems ought to make religious beliefs part of our platform--I also don't want a theocracy. My comments about religion were intended to point out that basic Democratic values are very consistent with the values Christ taught, you could even argue that Christians are mandated to promote the values I am talking about. We do need to counter the common belief that Christian values = the Republican social agenda, which is a belief held by many Christians on the right and secularists on the left. One way to counter that would be for those candidates who feel comfortable talking about their faith to explain explicitly how their faith informs their values and political views. Barach Obama is a model.

I agree with the rest of your post too. We are not going to win the electoral votes of states like Alabama anytime soon. But there are red states where we can win if we frame the issues correctly, and we could improve our legislative delegations in red states that are out of our Presidential reach. There are significant numbers of working people who perceive the Democratic party as the party of the moral decadence and environmental extremism. Surely we can win back some of those folks if we make it clear that we are the party of rewarding hard work, equal opportunity whether you're rich or poor, and of the old fashioned value of Americans looking out for each other.

Keith

by keith johnson on Mon Nov 22, 2004 at 01:40:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Great diary Chris (none / 0)

The real point of value in Chris' diary is that the two parties have become ideological ones and that the Dems are not going to sell well in the South, unless like Clinton in 92 and 96, we run a good 6-9 points above parity.  Furthermore, being that politics has changed since the 1970s and become more ideological, a conservative is just not going to be nominated by the Dems.  Since the South (with the exception of FL and maybe VA if the northern DC suburbs continue growing) is mostly hostile ground in a tight-race, where do we gain electoral votes outside the Pacific West, the Northeast and more tenuously, the Upper Midwest?  Is the Southwest (AZ, NM, CO, NV) a feasible option?

The problem that Kerry had was that he had a rather contricted playing field to work with, with essentially a 50-50 national race.  Had he been 5 points ahead, then things might have been a different matter.

Considering that we lost by 3 points, but only the electoral college by 286-252, I'd say we're not in as bad shape as some doomsayers might have us out to be, presuming we can find another 18 electoral votes from somewhere.

by jsramek on Sun Nov 21, 2004 at 07:56:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

18 electoral votes are easy (none / 0)

You're right jsramek, we're not in bad shape. Florida and Ohio and definitely in play. New Mexico, Nevada and Ohio are all razor thin red states.
by Gary Boatwright on Sun Nov 21, 2004 at 09:37:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 18 electoral votes are easy (none / 0)

you're so correct.  There is no excuse for Ohio not being blue.  It's an economic basket case dependent on the social welfare state programs.  We need to rebuild a strong Democratic party in Ohio.  It's ridiculous that Jerry Springer and Dennis Kucinich are the states best known Democrats.  This is the state that gave us John Glenn and Howard Metzenbaum for god's sake.  As weak a candidate as Kerry was, he was really fighting one armed without a strong state party organization.  Again, we need to stop wasting resources in the South and use them where we can and should be winning.  Ohio is a great example.
by rusrivman on Sun Nov 21, 2004 at 10:24:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 18 electoral votes are easy (none / 0)

Unless something changes drastically in Ohio's political landscape or the economy stays as bad or gets worse than it is, we don't have much of a shot at Ohio in a close 2008 race.  I think 2004 was the year for us to pick off Ohio.  It's normally a pretty Republican state (every single statewide office is help by Reps, they hold the majority in both houses of the legislature and the majority of the state's delegation to Congress), but the economy was is so horrible here that it tilted a little bluer.  The good news is we'll probably be losing at least one electoral vote here in 2010.
by asearchforreason on Sun Nov 21, 2004 at 11:28:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The South (none / 0)

The republicans were clever enough to dictate the type of moral values they wanted the voters to focus on. Although health ins., job outsourcing, education, min. wage...are extremely moral concerns, they are logical in nature, which is usually trumped by emotion(guns,god,gays,abortion). We will never beat the republicans on these issues,ever!
Our best hope to cobble together a plurality for 08, is to start shopping around for a conservative(fiscal) republican or yellow dog democrat(former member of congress would do nicely)who is horrified by the fiscal mismanagement of this administration, and encourage this person to run as an independant in 08(Pat Buchanan-we MISS you!)
If this person happens to be a member of the NRA, so much the better! Pro-life-would be a gift.
It's quite obvious how the republican primaries will be run in 08. I doubt McCain will run. If he did, he would likely face the same firewall in the South as he did in 00.Patacki, Guiliani, Arnold types don't have a prayer.  Do you honestly think we are going to win a majority of the evangelicals?, Nascar dads?, NRA members? confederate flag waving,pick-up truck driving(Dean's apt description-not mine)rednecks? No, of course not. Many of them may be fed up enough to walk away from more of the same in 08, but they need somewhere safe to turn. The democratic party(nationally) will never be that safe haven for them. A Ross Perot, Buchanan or similar Libertarian type might siphon away enough for us to win with a moderate.
by xpat on Sun Nov 21, 2004 at 10:38:52 PM EST

Frank (none / 0)

Living as I do in a red (formerly blue) state, I have to repeat yet again that Frank has got this figured out.  

But we Dems don't have it figured out and that's due, in part, to not listening, not observing.  What makes the southern states red?  Not just fundamentalism.  To what extent are we kidding ourselves about who we are, what we represent?

Since we're having our noses rubbed in the fact that Bush can lie persistently and get away with it, we're going to have to come to terms with the fact that image -- IMAGE -- is the damn key.  Why do they like Bush better when they know he's a liar?  Why to they dislike us even though we're not liars, just self-deluding?  If we're sure we're not reality-averse -- is there maybe something about reality they don't like?  What could we do to change that?

by Bean on Sun Nov 21, 2004 at 10:44:28 PM EST

Colors (none / 0)

Just wanted to mention that I'm red-green colorblind and I can't read a damn thing from those pink, light blue, etc maps that you've posted.  It's probably too much to ask, but could you redo them with some more readable colors?  I can see the red clearly and then I'm mixed up on what's dark blue, what's light blue and what's pink.  I'm sure there are other colorblind folks around and maybe you could help us all out by making the colors a little bolder or something.  I have looked at many red/blue maps with light colored states for weaker support before and I've never had as much trouble as with this one.
by asearchforreason on Sun Nov 21, 2004 at 11:18:35 PM EST

Re: Colors (none / 0)

Correction: After further review of the maps, I've now been able to differentiate the light blue states from the white states.  That leaves just the blue and pink which I think I am managing to differentiate upon close study.  Sorry for the bother.
by asearchforreason on Mon Nov 22, 2004 at 12:11:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Why (none / 0)

Is Missouri in the south and not the North?  It has more in common with Indiana, Illinois and Florida than it does with Arkansas, Kentucky and Oklahoma
"You say the world has lost it's love I say embrace what it's made of" -Dar Williams
by Valatan on Sun Nov 21, 2004 at 11:56:08 PM EST


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