MyDD Book Club, Discussion #1

Here is how this is going to work. I have posted a summary of the piece in the extended entry. I have kept my personal editorializing on the piece to a minimum. Over the course of the evening, reader should post their reviews of the piece--what they thought of it, not a summary--in the comments. All main comments should be reviews. Discussion will come from comments that are replies to the reviews.

Also, does this time and day work for you for future book club discussions? Take the poll on the main page.

Philip Agre's What Is Conservatism and What is Wrong With It?

Right at the beginning of the essay, Agre answers the two questions embedded in his title:

Q: What is conservatism?
A: Conservatism is the domination of society by an aristocracy.

Q: What is wrong with conservatism?
A: Conservatism is incompatible with democracy, prosperity, and civilization in general. It is a destructive system of inequality and prejudice that is founded on deception and has no place in the modern world.

Further explaining the first question, Agre identifies the following important aspects of conservatism and a conservative society.
  • Deference. Agre writes that "the most central feature of conservatism is deference: a psychologically internalized attitude on the part of the common people that the aristocracy are better people than they are." I think that both modern celebrity worship, CEO worship, and hostility toward any criticism of conservative lawmakers or military personnel can be seen as contemporary forms of mass deference to an aristocracy.

  • Praise of traditional institutions, such as the church, the military, corporations, etc.

  • Irrationality and hostility toward rational analysis. I don't think I even need to comment on this.

  • Deception, especially about the nature of conservative ideology, and about the "natural" order of society.
Agre's analysis of conservatism and ideology is steeped in Enlightenment and modernist thought. The various aspects of liberal and conservative thought that he identifies are placed in clear binary oppositions: innovation versus stasis, rationality versus irrationality, democracy versus hierarchy and deception versus reality. In every case, liberalism is presented as rational, egalitarian and forward looking while conservatism is cast as bigoted, hierarchical and resistant to change. He also casts this opposition as existing throughout history, rather than as a recent phenomenon of twentieth century American politics, even though the specifics of the conflict are reinvented every generation.

After laying out his case for what conservatism is and what is wrong with it, Agre actually spend the majority of the piece identifying how conservatism works and what liberals can do to defeat it. First, he argues that conservatism works as follows:

  • The Destruction of Conscience. In two specific ways, through arbitrary praise of different values in different situations and the portrayal of those with conscience as radical and dangerous, conservatism seeks to destroy liberalism main pillar: that it is a movement of conscience. The latter is particularly obvious and odious, and can be seen in the consistent conservative charge against do-gooders and the straw men arguments that are often made about animal rights activists and political correctness. By portraying those who wish to help others and who act on conscience as oppressive forces that do more harm than good, conservatism seeks to wipe our society clean of conscience.

  • The Destruction of Democracy. Conservatives regularly engages in authoritarian rhetorical maneuvers, such as claiming that anyone who criticizes Bush is an elitist and / or unpatriotic. The opponents of conservatism are demonized in the extreme. Further, conservatives engage in constant railings against government in general, without distinguishing between democratic and tyrannical forms of government. Railing against government is designed to increase people's dependency on private sources of power, aka the aristocracy.

  • The Destruction of Reason. Agre identifies the massive conservatism public relations machine as the source of the attempted destruction of reason that seeks to deny people access to reality and rational debate. He writes that "Conservatism frequently attempts to destroy rational thought, for example, by using language in ways that stand just out of reach of rational debate or rebuttal.... Once the common people started becoming educated, more sophisticated methods of domination were required. Thus the invention of public relations, which is a kind of rationalized irrationality. The great innovation of conservatism in recent decades has been the systematic reinvention of politics using the technology of public relations." Here, he is obviously referring to what we know as the Right Wing Noise Machine and / or the Mighty Wurlizter.

  • The Destruction of Language. This aspect of conservative domination is directly connected to the destruction of reason, as "reason occurs mostly through the medium of language, and so the destruction of reason requires the destruction of language." The most important aspect of the conservative linguistic campaign has been to restructure the traditional descriptive terms for conservatives and the aristocracy into an invective narrative against liberals. The conservative notion of liberal elites is something with which we are all too familiar.
Agre lists a variety of tactics liberals need to employ in order to defeat conservatism. Among the most important:
  • Constantly rebut conservative arguments, especially with new arguments. Never let anything slide.

  • Vastly increase on the quantity and quality of liberal pundits.

  • Ditch Marx and adopt the language of entrepreneuralism (this is something that I highly endorse).

  • Teach logic and nonviolence.

  • Stay Democrats

  • Be aggressive in identifying conservatism as the problem in America. Be aggressive in identifying the truth about conservatism. Be aggressive in identifying the positive nature of liberalism.

  • Speak in plain language, and aggressively struggle over important rhetorical words we have surrendered (freedom, patriotism, values, etc).
That's it. What did you think of the piece?

Display:


very clear and easy to understand (none / 0)

I think the hardest thing, for me anyway, is really standing up to these people who are bullying us into silence.

I like the point about not letting anything slide. Like talking to someone with Borderline Personality Disorder, the key is to stick to the facts which can be a challenge because I think one problem is thinking these conservative are "rational" and "like us"-- they aren't!

Thanks,
I'll keep reading.

by lesnussman on Wed Nov 17, 2004 at 07:30:34 PM EST

Player Hater... (none / 0)

Quick questions...  Why he gotta player hate on Snoop?  What did Snoop ever do to him?

--sam

by samizdat on Wed Nov 17, 2004 at 07:41:33 PM EST

Re: Player Hater... (none / 0)

I have no idea. It seemed like a strange aside in the essay. I'm not sure why he even brought it up.
by Chris Bowers on Wed Nov 17, 2004 at 09:10:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Player Hater... (none / 0)

I think his point wasn't to single out one rapper, but to point out that there is much in "popular culture" (from gangsta rap to reality TV to...well, carnage-filled movies starring Republican governors ;-) ) that is not only emotionally upsetting to many  Americans (not all of them conservative), but, more importantly, is destructive and antithetical to our own progressive ideals.  Yet our opposition of censorship has often meant that we seem to rush to embrace performers and popular-culture-makers that are the most offensive, and precisely BECAUSE they are offensive.  Thus, their message is seen to rub off on us.  I think Agre's point is that it is quite possible to defend a writer's or performer's right to express him- or herself, while still criticising that person's work.
 
by JDWalley on Thu Nov 18, 2004 at 05:16:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Player Hater... (none / 0)

If that's what he meant... then he should have said that.  ;p

--sam "I'm just being snarky" santos

by samizdat on Thu Nov 18, 2004 at 08:11:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Player Hater... (none / 0)

I hate rap, too. At least that exploitative, "f-" everything kind. It's racist, it teaches that, and classism, too. It makes a lot of money for white record execs. It promotes gang culture and crass materialism. Drugs, the most lethal of all vices, are wrapped in rap culture like chiles in a burrito. I live in Chicago. I work part time at a city parking facility. I see the gunshots and the culture. Rap is poison. If that's the best youth can do, let's all just forget this nation, okay?

However, there is much of value to be found in our culture. There are fine young poets, incredible fiction writers, spirited filmakers. I just bought a CD by the young musician, Jamie Cullum. Elevate, don't condescend. Read some of Studs Terkel's interviews with the American everyman. We can really amaze.

J.H. Grimson
by JHGrimson on Thu Nov 18, 2004 at 02:10:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I read the essay (none / 0)

... and I liked what it had to say; it helped me to anchor my understanding of "conservatism" in the broadest sense. This is great because with this kind of powerful foundational frame from which to work - conservatism as a means of propogating an aristocracy at enormous cost to the rest of the population - progressives are provided a great method with which we can subvert the rhetorical arguments posed by conservatives. This allows us not only to undercut their initial argument, but at the same time poses a counterargument akin to "you're not fooling me, the emperor has no clothes and you have nothing left in your arsenal that's going to work." ... If that makes sense to anyone else but me.

And lesnussman, I hear where you're coming from, but I have to tell you that I did stand up to one of "those people" outside a convenience store here in Lansing Michigan two nights ago and almost got into a physical altercation, but it felt damn good. When I was leaving the store with a 12 pack, this guy was ranting at a cashier about how horrible the damn liberals are. On my way out I told him that I overheard his conversation and just wanted to tell him that I am a proud liberal. He shot back with more perjorative talk and I just simply called him a "fucking fascist republican fuck" and got in my car hitting the power locks in time to see him pounding on my passenger door demanding I open the car. I gave him the finger and he stomped on my bumper as I drove away. I know it was a silly stupid thing for me to do, but in the spirit of embracing the divide in this country - which I strongly advocate - it felt good and I have no regrets.

by ShatteredMind on Wed Nov 17, 2004 at 07:53:41 PM EST

Re: I read the essay (none / 0)

Well, apart from your adventures in agitation, I agree that the basic framework he lays out to describe conservatism might be a useful one. It certainly is historically broad, and I'm not sure how much claims about a rising aristocracy would make an impact, but generally the liberal / conservative frame he sets up seems useful.

At the same time, I doubt some of his solutions. Most seemed to be based on reason. Are people really rational beings? Woudl they buy into conservatism if they were? That is a difficult question to answer, but Agre seems to assume that liberalism can win because people are, well, basically rational. I'm not so sure.

by Chris Bowers on Wed Nov 17, 2004 at 09:15:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I read the essay (none / 0)

It all comes down to PR, which is hard for me to deal with. If we know we're in the right (or left, to be more exact), it's a matter of educating ill-informed people about liberalism vs conservatism. This ain't easy. I think people don't want to be rational, but our arguments rely on rationality.

It's funny that Agre says we should learn non-violence tactics.  My rage and anger would have me acting the same way in the convenience store as the commenter above. I'm pissed and don't feel rational. Yet, when I read Agre's suggestions I instantly find myself in an imaginary argument with my right-wing brother or on "Hardball" slaying some right-wing denizen with my withering commentary (yeah, I have no idea why Chris Matthews would invite me on his show)and logic. Still, there's nothing non-violent in my imaginings. I'm mean and in control.

by Erin in Flagstaff on Wed Nov 17, 2004 at 09:28:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Teaching Non-Violence (none / 0)

Non-violence would be best described as "non-violent action."  It is a method of dealing with conflict and finding resolution. It isn't about not being angry.  It's about directing anger (Poss. term 'righteous anger') into effective change. It is well suited to liberal democracy because it emphasizes individual rights and is concerned with social justice.

Jonathan Schell has written an excellent book on non-violence and revolution called "The Unconquerable World."  Try also Michael Nagler's "Is There No Other Way."

The feeling of being "in control" by physically smashing someone may be momentarily satisfying but it is not effective for societal revolution--nor should we want it to be.  

by Planet43 on Fri Nov 19, 2004 at 10:00:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

On Reason (none / 0)

I think it is very clear that we are fighting to promote and defend reason, while the right is fighting to destroy it. I do not think that Agre deals with this larger question adequately in this essay, but I'm inclined to cut him considerable slack, since this essay says more than most books (I've reviewed several hundred books professionally. Believe me, please!)

I would respond by saying that many people who don't reason very well (especially about politics, which is relatively abstract compared to fixing a car, cooking dinner,  etc.) none-the-less do model their behavior--as indeed all birds and mammals do. While we might not be able to get everyone to reason, we can make great strides in showing them what it actually looks like, and giving them someting positive to model their notions of responsible citizenship on. (And this is where the whole non-violent aspect becomes really important, difficult indeed as it may be.) Obviously, we don't want it to stop there. But to me that seems like a nice plateau to aim for. A place to build a base camp.

by Paul Rosenberg on Wed Nov 17, 2004 at 09:54:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I read the essay (none / 0)

If people are not rational, at least over time, then democracy is a crazy and doomed form of government.  We might as well start gathering arms, because our form of despotism will surely be better than any other form of despotism, and much better than any form of government that gives decisionmaking power to the (irrational) people.  In addition, if people are not rational, then our moral and ethical imperative to care for other people takes on a very different cast; It becomes more like our obligation to take care of our pets.  It seems to me that one of the presuppositions of the progressive movement is that people are rational.
by The Goatherder on Wed Nov 17, 2004 at 10:10:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Pragmatism as basis for conservatism (2.00 / 1)

We've discussed this at myDD ad infinitum. I think we are quick to label the current right wing as conservative, and that's just not right. It plays the language to their favor. Conservatism is rooted in pragmatism. This radical experimentism of the current state defies pragmatic proof and basically is leading toward a monolithic fascism. It's okay to use the "f" word. It's not a put down, it's an accurate description. Conservatives would ply cautiously toward a goal. Pragmatists would also stress the means over the ends, and today's American fascists stress the ends over the means, not acknowledging that their choice of means defeats their intentions.

I would call Jon Anderson a conservative. Nixon, a domestic one. Eisenhower, etc. Not these guys. This is a fascist takeover going on.

Okay, all that being said, I could end up with egg on my face. Did Agre cover this topic? I've read only Chris' summary above, and not the original! Okay, jeez, I'm going to go read the whole essay now! Thanks all.  

J.H. Grimson
by JHGrimson on Wed Nov 17, 2004 at 08:11:06 PM EST

Re: Pragmatism as basis for conservatism (none / 0)

Wouldn't all these old-time conservatives be classified as moderates in today's environment? Is that our argument? "You are a moderate. Not a nasty conservative." I think Eisenhower would be called a liberal by the conservatives in power today.
by Erin in Flagstaff on Wed Nov 17, 2004 at 09:32:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pragmatism as basis for conservatism (none / 0)

Two points:

(1) Pragmatism has been a badly misrepresented as liberalism! True pragmatism--ala James and Dewey--is a very robust foundation for an ever-expanding liberalism.

(2) Back when the world was much less dynamic than it has become in the last 200 years, it was plausible to argue--as many conservatives did--that they were pragmatists and liberals were wild-eyed theorists with untested ideas that couldn't possibly match the complexities of actually-existing, organic society.  What made this argument fail, ultimately, was the success of science, and the corresponding empowerment of human reason which lead people to actively change the world a myriad of ways from large (the abolition of slavery) to small.

Thus, the historic struggle between liberalism and conservatism has decisively changed the entire context. It is now liberals who are the pragmatists--far more concerned with problem-solving than theorizing--and the conservatives who spend all their time theorizing (since the real world looks nothing at all like what's in their heads).

by Paul Rosenberg on Wed Nov 17, 2004 at 10:06:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pragmatism as basis for conservatism (none / 0)

It seems to me that conservatives have replaced pragmatism and even theorizing with just plain cynicism (the height of intellectual lazyness.)  They tout "the law of unintended consequences" over and over again as a reason to not do anything.

Of course, this only seems to be the case with domestic policy. With foreign policy, where the unintended consequences fall on other countries, or on soldiers "who volunteered for it" they are not quite so cautious.

by The Goatherder on Wed Nov 17, 2004 at 10:29:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Bad Theorists (none / 0)

Well, they're lazy and they're stupid, and they're inconsistent, and they're self-serving.... they're just bad theorists in a whole lot of different ways. But most of all, they let people like Newt Gingrich and Rush Limbaugh do their thinking for them.
by Paul Rosenberg on Wed Nov 17, 2004 at 10:33:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Generally enjoyed it. some weak spots. (none / 0)


   His approach to the topic was pretty thorough. The description of Republican word association games was the most insightful psrt in my opinion. The domination of the PR battle by republicans has hammered away at our majority. He does make many sweeping generalizations to marginalize the philosophies he doesn't like. Marx, economists, rap, and even Nash equilibrium driven game theory are summarily dismissed.

However, I generally thought this piece greatly clarified what i had been trying to put into a cohesive perspective for a long time now. I would like to offer an addendum about the effectiveness of the word games, couched in political science hypotheses about the realities of democracy:

    The public is generally uninformed. They follow politics with less zeal than the box scores in the morning paper. They hold incorrect ideas about most of the factual information that influences policy-making. Americans consistently fail to know who their Congressional representatives are, the basic seperation of powers in the constitution, and basic knowledge about foreign affairs. Thus, democracy ought to make consistently bad choices, but in reality they don't. People's mistakes are random, and thus the uniformed voters randomly pick candidates for a wide range of different reasons. Through this mess of randomness, a common wisdom emerges as everyone's small piece of knowledge is added to the whole to create an aggregate opinion. This is where the Republican word association game changes things. People who were previously picking donkeys and elephants for a host of silly reasons, are now picking elephants. They are picking elephants, not on the basis of there policies, but because they feel safe with the elephants. They believe the elephants are trustworthy and the donkeys are not. They haven't interacted with any of the politicians and have no basis for the opinion except for the politicians public statements. The Republican are outdoing us publicly, and they are winning the know-nothing vote. Having a sitting president will make it almost impossible to beat them, but we have to start somewhere. Reclaiming our stolen words is an important first step.  

by srolle on Wed Nov 17, 2004 at 08:13:49 PM EST

"All main comments should be reviews" (none / 0)

Well, since that seems to have gone out the window, maybe I can post my discussion point at top-level in the thread.

One fault line on the Left is the intellectual disucussion: Should we move to the center or to the left?  Ignoring issues of the inadequacy of this one-dimensional projection of politics for the moment, Agre has this to say: we need our own Pat Robertson.

Build the Democratic Party

Your model should be Pat Robertson. He is as extreme on the right as anybody in the United States is on the left. Yet his people took over large parts of the Republican Party. They did this in three ways: laboriously designing a mainstream-sounding language, identifying large numbers of talented activists and training them in the day-to-day work of issue and party politics, and building their own communications systems. Liberals should do the same.

I think the "move center" versus "move left" argument, until resolved, is an issue that weakens and divides us.  We have to put this one to bed.  Any thoughts?

Maybe we should attack the one-dimensional frame itself, and replace it with a new one (and I don't mean a two- or three-dimensional one --- that doesn't resolve the issue).

by Winger on Wed Nov 17, 2004 at 08:22:29 PM EST

Re: Move center or move left (none / 0)

I doubt if we can put this one to bed anytime soon. What Agre is pointing out I think is that it doesn't matter. Left or center doesn't matter if we do the footwork and lay the foundation.

If we design "a mainstream-sounding language, identifying large numbers of talented activists and training them in the day-to-day work of issue and party politics, and building their own communications systems" it won't matter.

It's not the ideology, it's the structure and system of delivering ideas and bodies to the cause. Atrios has a number of links in his blogroll under "Activism" that are a good start, but we need a whole lot more resources to compete with the Mellon Scaif and Olin Foundations.

by Gary Boatwright on Thu Nov 18, 2004 at 12:59:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "We need our own Pat Robertson"... (none / 0)

I was especially struck by that line. I wonder if it means more than even Agre realizes? Not just that we need someone who can organize an effective grassroots movement that can take over and shift a stasis-bound political party, but someone who believes with all his heart, and brings others to believe with all their heart, that he and they are doing the will of the Almighty? Not that everyone here is going to share even the broad generalities of Robertson's claimed faith, but maybe that we do not see our task as merely "creating social justice in our spare time," but essentially see our individual salvation (however we many understand it) as dependent on how hard each of us strives, and even whether one succeeds, in restoring our common life from the ravages of conservatism?
by JDWalley on Thu Nov 18, 2004 at 05:32:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "We need our own Pat Robertson"... (none / 0)

In three parts.  Part 1
What about "I have a dream?"  What if we put together a vision of what an ideal world would be like, with optimism and belief that we would actually get there?  I'm living in Europe, and when they have a problem, they give a shot at solving it.  Would we want an environmentally benign world, where everyone has a meaningful job, a comfortable safe home, good health care, excellent education, not just to get a job, but to have have a meaningful life.
by prince myshkin on Thu Nov 18, 2004 at 07:27:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "We need our own Pat Robertson"... (none / 0)

Part 2
We could imagine a less hierarchical society so that we would barely know who was rich and who wasn't, instead of one branded for instant recognition by clothes, car, neighborhood, or private education.  Would we have safe neighborhoods and parks and a sense of community that did not depend wholy on our membership in a church?  The ubiquitous American sense of isolation can be overwhelming, and perhaps, not to be too paranoid, planned by the powers-to-be.
by prince myshkin on Thu Nov 18, 2004 at 07:28:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "We need our own Pat Robertson"... (none / 0)

Part 3
 My father worked for International Paper and refused to move because he was attached to his home town.  This of course meant no promotion.  My older sister said that this was a policy of the company to insure that no one in management would have attachments stronger than their attachment to the company.  Let's picture a world where our highest priority is toward our family, our community, our country, and our world community, above our personal ambitions. We need to imagine what we want before we can get it.  The person who imagines that most clearly is our "Pat Robertson."
by prince myshkin on Thu Nov 18, 2004 at 07:29:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

new order (none / 0)

My question is how did a prosperous and stable democratic society be lulled into buying this conservative message. We know  who was selling, but why did anyone buy? Was it just repetition?  And is that our strategy to win it back for liberalism? Just keep repeating the mantra for 20-30 years.

There must be an underlying dynamic. What is that? Could it be that by nature of the reasonable, rational beast that is liberalism we would become amoral? Does the exercise   of science and reason lead to some very non-godlike explanations for the things we say and do? That would be very threatening for people of faith. And I believe people of faith have been assailed from all sides, but  primarily from liberal/ libertarian ethos and heavy commercial exploitation of this self centered life as well as a dramatic increase of  vulgarity in the public sphere.

We know what the elite's motives are. They are self serving self aggrandizers and are extremely unaltruistic. Conservative elites express this in materialism; liberal elites expressed this in hierarchical socialism, (that is someone has to be in charge). Perhaps the liberal elite were a little more inclined to human welfare. But not by much.

I think we have to find new descriptions of what we are and wish our society to be.
We need to create a narrative of what our nation shall be and unshackle our selves from the narrativee of what we were.

by timkaastad on Wed Nov 17, 2004 at 09:04:39 PM EST

How? Racial & Gender Backlash, That's How! (none / 0)

"My question is how did a prosperous and stable democratic society be lulled into buying this conservative message."

The American South never was prosperous, stable, or democratic. When the Civil Rights Movement blew the lid off that arrangement, the racism in the rest of the country was drawn to the reformulated racism of the South.  

On top of that we had the women's movement. 8-10,000 years of gender subjugation doesn't just disappear without a fight.

Liberalism has taken on some very powerful sacred cows in the past half century.  It's rough.

by Paul Rosenberg on Wed Nov 17, 2004 at 10:39:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: new order (none / 0)

It was actually not a backlash, it was by design.  There has been systematic program of propaganda beginning in the 1970's.  Wealthy men such as Coors and Scaife were afraid that the "best and brightest" were becoming too liberal, so they spent some $300 million a year on think tanks and on supporting rightwing pundits. Then there is the Washington Times which, through huge infusions of cash from Rev. Moon, pushes the entire balance to the right.  Talk radio was nurtured for really not very much money as a way to focus the rage of the down-and-out toward attacking liberals rather than the people with money who are making the policies and running the companies which are hurting them. But there is hope.  The New Yorker had an article on "Phoenix Rising" which may be the liberal answer.
by prince myshkin on Thu Nov 18, 2004 at 07:39:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

No New Order Needed (none / 0)

I would say that the underlying dynamic of Liberals being lulled into a conservative message is that we are Liberals.  We automatically accept the fact that people are equals, given the right to their own opinion.  Conservatives have taken advantage of this fact.  By the very nature of what we believe, we cannot say that one person's view point is any more right than another (this is going to be a quandry moving forward for us as well).  This is what let them start the process, then they started changing the language, making it harder to fight back, and then there's the fact that we just didn't or don't refute arguments or arbitrary decisions put up by the aristocrats.  Another point is that initially we assumed that everyone would express their opinions and then welcome open debate about it.  That's our rules.  The aristocrats do not believe they need to play by those rules.  So we waited for the debate and it never came.  From that point we were behind and still are.  

Moving forward we are going to have to take care that we do not become what we oppose. We can say that aristocracy is bad, but do we do this arbitrarily?

Morality is relative and by your statement you are implying that Liberals ARE amoral.  This is a buy in to the convervative propaganda machine.  Because we accept people, rich, poor, old, young, lawful and lawless, those of faith and aethists the conservatives have managed to paint a picture of us as not having morals.  It is true that we accept people into our belief of limited government that may be, to some of us, hard to stomach, it does not mean that all liberal individuals are amoral or immoral.  The flip side of the coin in the propaganda machine is that the conservatives call us immoral because we don't discriminate, which they do and which they virtually scream from the mountain tops, but nobody has pointed this out to the vast majority of the electorate.

It has seemed true that people of faith have been assailed from Liberals.  Because the basic premise of Liberalism is that all people are accepted as equals there is a natural tendency to attack the hierarchial structure of most churches (and governments and corporations).  It has been an attack on the structure, not on the faith.  I don't know if that makes a difference in your view.  (The true reason for the development of religion and why there should not be heirarchies within it are probably best left to another thread.)

My personal view point is that this world will be perfect when there are 10 Billion different religions and there are no political parties.

I can't say that after reading Agre's essay, your uses of `convervative elite' and `liberal elite' are quite correct.

I think that one of the points that can be derived from Agre's essay is that `liberal elite' is an oxymoron.  The meaning of liberal is that you believe in a limited government.  I gathered from the definition given that within a limited government everyone has the right to make decisions because you believe everyone else to be a (political) equal, not necessarily on all subjects or at all times (thus the need for political entrepreneurs), but everyone would be welcome to contribute at any time.  If there were permanent hierarchies, it would be an aristocracy.  Democracies and Hierarchies are mutually opposing forces.  Conservative elites would be in contrast, the aristocrats, whereas conservative regulars would be the subjects of said aristocrats.  

Also, assuming that what motivates aristocrats is money, is probably a monumentally huge error.  There are conservative elites who would be driven by money, sure, but there are other possible motivating factors: power, control, even the belief of God (resulting in theocracies like the Taliban).

I think that in using the words convervative and liberal they way that you have, you have bought into the new definition of these words as defined by the aristocracy.  I think that this is what this essay was trying to help you (and all of us) stop doing.  

As for a new order, I believe it is unnecessary.  We have never stopped being what we should be, we have never changed, the perception of us has changed.  We just need to reaffirm our beliefs, take back the language and challenge conservatives every election, every day, every minute.

I think that JFK (the first one) summed it up best:
http://www.cjnetworks.com/~cubsfan/whatis.html

by stevenlohrenz on Mon Nov 29, 2004 at 01:24:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Some Thoughts On A Seminal Essay (3.00 / 2)

What Is Conservatism and What Is Wrong with It?

Philip Agre's essay  "What Is Conservatism and What Is Wrong with It?" has simple answers to the title's two questions, which in turn lead into a well-structured discussion of why these simple answers are so little recognized or known.  Yet, despite the tight structure there is so much raw insight that it is frankly impossible to fully digest. Indeed, in my view it is not intended for digestion. It is intended for prolonged chewing on, in tandem with more focused and productive activism, which it seeks to motivate, inspire and partially direct.  In that spirit, this review will touch on some key points, and will then focus on a single example, which I feel exemplifies the value of Agre's insight for enriching our capacity to do engage in meaning and effective activism.

The first question and answer can be gotten from any of the classic conservative texts or writers--the modern prototypes being Edmund Burke in the Anglo-American world and Joseph de Maistre in Continental Europe. Agre summarizes thus:

Q: What is conservatism?
     A: Conservatism is the domination of society by an aristocracy.

There is nothing controversial in this purely descriptive answer, except for those bamboozled by the past 30+ years of anti-liberal propaganda, that much of the rest of the essay deals with.  This simple fact highlights one of Agre's underlying points--to combat conservatism, we must understand it much better than we already do.  We must know its history--ancient, modern and contemporary--and we must know its latest tricks and inner logic.

The second question and answer is more controversial, simply because it is analytical, rather than purely descriptive. However, the analysis in the answer is then fully supported in the essay that follows.  

Agre writes:

Q: What is wrong with conservatism?
     A: Conservatism is incompatible with democracy, prosperity, and civilization in general. It is a destructive system of inequality and prejudice that is founded on deception and has no place in the modern world.

Numerous aspects of Agre's essay support this claim, but it is most directly buttressed in section 2, "How Conservatism Works," which he breaks down into subsections, "The Destruction of Conscience," "The Destruction of Reason," "The Destruction of Language."  

Agre's focus on the destructiveness of conservatism strikes me as one of the most fruitful contributions, one which liberals can and should study in detail  and fully internalize, so that they can talk about it easily, naturally and knowledgeably. This focus is matched/countered by Agre's focus on entreprenurialism as the opposite characteristic that liberalism embodies, but does not always recognize as such.

(Agre fleshes out his notion of issue entreprenurialism in another essay written earlier this year, The Practical Republic: Social Skills and the Progress of Citizenship, which is, in a sense, a sibling essay--each makes even more sense when read in the light of the other.  A key passage from that essay:

"[I]t is central to the political process that individual citizens, in their public personae, are able to associate themselves with issues. Citizens, whether politicians or activists, make their political careers in entrepreneurial fashion by identifying issues that are coming to prominence, researching and analyzing them, staking out public positions on them, and building social networks of other citizens who have associated themselves with related issues, especially those whose positions are ideologically compatible."
)  

There is much talk--and even some fledgling effort in the Dkosopedia--about the tracking and countering rightwing memes.  Agre's observations should serve to focus attention on the need to think this project through in a far more thorough way before proceeding with it.  While the general notion of memes is that they are natural mental phenomena, Agre highlights the fact that rightwing memes are actually carefully crafted, and cannot be understood apart from the larger historical project which give life to them.

Consider, for example, this paragraph:

A recent example is the word "hate". The civil rights movement had used the word "hate" to refer to terrorism and stereotyping against black people, and during the 1990's some in the press had identified as "Clinton-haters" people who had made vast numbers of bizarre claims that the Clintons had participated in murder and drug-dealing. Beginning around 2003, conservative rhetors took control of this word as well by labeling a variety of perfectly ordinary types of democratic opposition to George Bush as "hate". In addition, they have constructed a large number of messages of the form "liberals hate X" (e.g., X=America) and established within their media apparatus a sophistical pipeline of "facts" to support each one. This is also an example of the systematic breaking of associations.

Clearly, "liberals hate X" is a generic meme, which in turn spins off any number of specific variants. Cataloging memes into families is certainly a useful approach, but Agre reminds us of something more--that it's important to identify where these memes originated, and what they were designed to do.  His discussion of the message "Gore's lies" is also relevant here. As he indicates, a major meme is supported by an entire entourage of subsidiary memes which are part of a coherent system, which must be understood as such:

To the public relations mind, the public sphere is a game in which the opposition tries to knock you off your message. Take the example of one successful message, "Gore's lies". The purpose of the game was to return any interaction to the message, namely that Gore lies. So if it is noted that the supposed examples of Gore lying (e.g., his perfectly true claim to have done onerous farm chores) were themselves untrue, common responses would include, "that doesn't matter, what matters is Gore's lies", or "the reasons people believe them is because of Gore's lies", or "yes perhaps, but there are so many other examples of Gore's lies", or "you're just trying to change the subject away from Gore's lies", and so on.

We cannot really do a good job of analyzing and countering rightwing memes if we do not first explore the larger context in which they are created.  The aformentioned model of "issue entreprenurialism" requires a degree of focus and integration of related material that will be richly rewarded the more we put it into practice. A study of memes in the manner suggested above is just one of the many directions that would-be issue entreprenuers can take from this articulate and richly suggestive essay.

p.s. I've corresponded irregularly with Agre over the past few years. When I wrote to him about this discussion, he replied, in part:

Maybe I can suggest another reading:

http://www.mtsu.edu/~seig/pdf/pdf_schudson.pdf

If they want a historical book, then either Wiebe's "The Opening of American Society" or Wood's "The Radicalism of the American Revolution", both extremely good.

What they should really do is read some actual conservative books and start figuring out how to explain in clear American what they say and what is wrong with them -- in particular, how to take back the words they use, e.g., "freedom".  Start with Burke's essay on the French Revolution.

The real nature of conservatism is made very clear in a conservative book on Burke and Tocqueville by Frohnen, Virtue and the Promise of Conservatism.

Also Nisbet, Twilight of Authority, a good example of what conservatism sounded like just before the Reagan PR Revolution.

And selections from two readers: Muller, Conservatism and Kirk, A Portable Conservative Reader.


by Paul Rosenberg on Wed Nov 17, 2004 at 09:40:54 PM EST

I enjoyed reading this (none / 0)

Agre not only gives us an historical look at conservatism and its objectives, but also why liberalism has a hard time fighting such an ancient system. Agre is also good at giving us ideas on how to fight conservatism. Unfortunately, it's not an easy task.

I like learning about the tactics liberals can use and what conservatives are using. It helps me be a more informed citizen, which is something the conservatives don't want too much of in our country - informed citizens.

Seeing conservatism as a continuing force in all societies makes it seem less threatening, but more difficult to fight. We're just fighting an age-old tug-of-war between power and the people. Oh my. "Power to the People!" is such a cliched hippy slogan, but isn't that what democracy is all about? Though if conservatives have their way, that slogan would refer to those people who only agree with them.

by Erin in Flagstaff on Wed Nov 17, 2004 at 09:44:22 PM EST

Mixed bag (none / 0)

I very much liked Agre's description of conservatism as the preservation of an hierarchical elite.  This is a real frame that we have to use. Conservatives like to convince people that they are fighting for a return to the values of small town America.  Rather, they are fighting for a return to the 19th century factory system, with its owners, bosses, foremen and "means of production".

However, Agre misses one of main points about conservatism, that it had an appropriate historical time and place. The hierarchical society was necessary in order to bring civilization out of chaos.  The power of a few was necessary to impose the order necessary to advance us out of the dark ages.  It was also necessary to enable the type of educations - for a few  -- that led to the renaissance.  The trouble is that its time has passed.  

But to miss this historical point is to miss the gut-level appeal that conservatism has to people who feel that our civilization is crashing down around us.  We need to be especially forceful in arguing that 1) at this point in the world's history, reason and progress are the best ways forward, and 2) that our civilization is not really going to hell - lesbianism is not rampant in Oklahoma high schools, Muslims do not all behead people, etc.  

I did not care for his rant  about how those "evil" conservatives have appropriated all of the good words, make their arguments too forcefully , etc.  As if we wouldn't do that if we could!  In fact, for a while we did.  But they are just beating us at the game of rhetoric, and - whether you believe it is fair or not - we had better fight back.  

Finally, I agree 100% that entrepreneurs are a natural constituency of the progressive movement.  They are to economics what activists are to politics.  And conservative policies seek to pull up the ladder behind them, not extend a hand up.  Conservatives often co-opt a successful entrepreneur, who suddenly "remembers" that he did it all himself, with no help from anyone.  We have to continually remind people that governmental institutions enable and encourage entrepreneurship, they do not hinder it. Small business people and entrepreneurs should be our natural constituency, and will be one of the keys to a majority party.

by The Goatherder on Wed Nov 17, 2004 at 09:54:11 PM EST

Yes And No (none / 0)

I believe there is some truth in your historical argument, but not as much as you think. In Getting to Peace, William Ury presents powerful evidence that over most of human history we lived in small egalitarian groups with no evidence of warfare. Hierarchy, coercion and warfare arose 8-10,000 years ago with the invention of agriculture. The knowledge revolution--date it to Gutenberg, as good a place as any--is reversing the pendulum. But enormous human suffering and psychic trauma was involved in this form of "civilization" which has made us far less civil than our hunter-gatherer ancestors were. Thus, I believe Agre's judgement about conservatism is quite just, in balance.

However, there are some other approaches to conservatism that render it less toxic. Viewed as a temperamental disposition, for example. But note--it's quite possible to be temperamentally conservative without being ideologically conservative.  

by Paul Rosenberg on Wed Nov 17, 2004 at 10:19:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Agre's essay dead-on (none / 0)

His phrase "mockery of conscience" seemed to me to sum up the last 10 years of politics.

Democracy as a concept has been all but crushed under the weight of republican radicals and what mascarades as the "Christian" movement which is in fact nothing more than a political lobby.  The dishes of fear and prejudice the above entities serve up to the public along with an avalanche of news and data, the factual content of which is highly questionable, forces the public into a refusal to think.  After all, to think may force them to face some things such as global gluttony, out of control materialism, the real death toll in Iraq to name a few and that makes them too uncomfortable.  No, it's much safer to think about abortion and gay marriage since rarely do either of those issues directly impact their lives.

I'm heartened to find that so many are willing to fight for the Democratic party because our reluctance in the past to fight; in fact to choose the lesser evil instead has landed us where we are today.  Agre has laid out some valid strategies for battle.

by JaxDem on Wed Nov 17, 2004 at 10:24:16 PM EST

Re: Agre's essay dead-on (none / 0)

This brings to mind what  Daniel Bell wrote in a 1962 essay on the rise of and prospects for the radical right.

"Few countries in the world have been able to maintain a social system that allows political power to pass peacefuly from one social group to another without the threat of hostilities or even civil war. In the mid-twentieth century we see ... historical centers of civilization ...torn apart by ideological groups that will not accept a consensual system of politics. The politics of civility ... has been the achievement of only a small group of countries.... Today, the ideology of the right wing in America threatens the politics of American civility. Its commitment and its methds threaten to disrupt the "fragile consensus" that underlies the American political system." [page 2]

This is reprinted in a book entitled "The Radical Right" which we ought to consider for a future discussion.

by The Goatherder on Wed Nov 17, 2004 at 10:34:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Another golden oldie (none / 0)

Would be "Thunder on the Right" by Gary Clabaugh, 1974. These folks have been busy little beavers over the last 30 years.
by Gary Boatwright on Thu Nov 18, 2004 at 12:43:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

But Why Are Conservatives Conservative? (2.50 / 2)

In his essay, Agre goes over how conservatives have made language their tool and seeks to fire his own salvo by identifying conservatives with "aristocracy" and "destruction" while identifying liberals with "reason" and "democracy."

Agre is correct in identifying an aristocratic bent to conservatism, and his advice to assess the '60s shows an awareness of what modern American conservatives abhor.  (Still, we should not fail to recognize that the '60s included some negative aspects like free love and drug use, just as Agre notes we should acknowledge that there is both good and bad rap.)

But I feel that in a rush to (perhaps rightly) demonize conservatism as anti-reason and anti-democracy, Agre has glossed over the existence of traumatic current events as a trigger for waves of conservatism.  In a desire to paint conservatives as self-interested aristocrats, he fails to show how some conservatives come by their views honestly before going about their business by any means necessary.

The modern conservatism founded by Burke was essential a reaction against the French Revolution and while it is proper to be horrified by some of the excesses of the Revolution that does not mean one should re-establish the old monarchy.

Modern American conservatism practiced today is fundamentally a reaction against the 1960s and while it is proper to be horrified by some of the exceses of the '60s that does not mean one should re-establish the 1950s.

In general, conservatism is a reaction against the excesses of the masses.  This reaffirms the Hobbesian instinct that the masses cannot and do not deserve to rule.  (For a similar example of this, look at the hand-wringing of some on the left who decry what they see as the stupidity of a nation for re-electing George W. Bush.)  What is missing in Agre's list of solutions is how to grapple with the most recent traumatic event affecting conservatives, September 11.

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both
by Anthony de Jesus on Wed Nov 17, 2004 at 11:14:00 PM EST

Confusing Producers And Consumers (none / 0)

When you talk about conservatives "reacting to excessess", you are talking about passive followers. The conservative leadership has always been opposed to the masses gaining power, and they seek to exploit any opportunity to panic people and misdirect their fear. If you don't distinguish between producers and consumers, you can't begin to make an intelligent analsysis.  

This is not to say that there aren't a lot of people who are both, to some extent. But the top-level producers are quite visible, easy to identify and study. They didn't become conservative in response to the 1960s. They were already conservative and they looked for ways to exploit what happened in the 1960s. And the main thing that happened wasn't sex & drugs. It was racial and gender liberation and a revolt in the armed forces (hundreds of officers fragged) that finally forced a withdrawl from Vietnam.

by Paul Rosenberg on Wed Nov 17, 2004 at 11:43:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Confusing Producers And Consumers (1.00 / 1)

Well, of course, there have always been conservatives.  And they don't want the masses to have power.  But, let's not forget that they think the masses have proved themselves unworthy.

The 1960s are a powerful symbol that crystalizes conservative thought.  It is something that turns people from passive to active conservatives.  The decade was just further proof that people can't be trusted.  After all, anti-war demostrations by students and "hippies," action by the "masses," was so distasteful to some that association of those types with the anti-war movement actually retarded public opinions shift against the action in Vietnam.

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both
by Anthony de Jesus on Thu Nov 18, 2004 at 07:51:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: But Why Are Conservatives Conservative? (none / 0)

One thing I rarely see discussed concerning why people identify themselves as conservatives is that they see conservatism as the ideology that embraces self-reliance, independence, self-determination. They see liberalism as a desire to create a "nanny state" that would take away their ability to make their own decisions.

They want to own guns so that they can defend themselves and their own homes and families. They are frustrated by bureaucrats (OSHA, the EPA)  that make nit-picking rules that make  it impossible to run their businesses or do what they want to with their own property. They don't want the "elite" diplomats to deal with violent, crazed terrorists that attacked us on 9/11, they want to join the army and go where the terrorists are and kick their butts. Personally.

Many of the things that Agre says about controlling the rhetoric work because they assure people that "we" (conservatives) respect your ability to make your own decisions, to determine your own lives. "They" (the liberals) think they are so much smarter than you are, think you're so stupid and ignorant, that they want to run your lives for you, make your decisions for you.

As a die-hard, life-long liberal, I agree with most of what Agre is saying. But I think that we won't get very far until we see this appeal to the very American desire for self-determination as part of the core appeal of conservatism.

It can be argued (correctly, I think) that Rush, Fox, et al are misrepresenting conservatism--in the sense that Agre is using the term. That it is fundamentally undemocratic and therefore undermines independence and self-reliance. But this is what they're selling and until we address that, we won't get far.

by Janet Strange on Wed Nov 17, 2004 at 11:43:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: But Why Are Conservatives Conservative? (none / 0)

Agre's point is that we need to take back self-reliance, independence, self-determination. Making dependable, reliable health care availble to all is a step towards self-reliance and self-determination. We can re-frame the minimum wage and earned income tax assistance as a ladder to help people become self-reliant and independent of welfare.

College tuition and public education can be defended on the same grounds. I think Agre's ideas tie in quite nicely with Carville's critcism that we've been offering voters a litany and conservatives give them a narrative. We have to take back the narrative on all of these issues.

by Gary Boatwright on Thu Nov 18, 2004 at 12:49:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: But Why Are Conservatives Conservative? (3.00 / 1)

I agree absolutely. E.g. social security helps retired people be more self-sufficient and take care of themselves rather than having to be dependent on their children or charities. And so on and so on.

However, I think it's essential to stop describing conservatives as "sheeple" who need guidance and direction from us. We're wrong to think that their reaction to 9/11 is that they see themselves as helpless children cowering in fear who think that Republican "daddies" can protect them better than Democrats. They see themselves, especially because they are either in the military or have close family ties to those who are, as defending themselves, their country, (and all of us ungrateful liberals, too.)

Self-reliance and independence are very strong American values. It's one of the most important narratives of our country. A desire to make our own decisions and set our own course in life is something we strongly share with other Americans all across the political spectrum.

Liberals/progressives/Democrats have to make the case that the neo-conservative agenda offers only the illusion of self-determination, that it robs us of our freedom rather than protecting it. We have to point our concrete examples of how this is so. For example, a poll in Texas showed that 75% of Texans approve medical marijuana use. They want the freedom to choose this if they or they loved ones should need it. Repeat over and over the specific dangers of the Patriot Act. Many who identify themselves as conservative have moral qualms about abortion, but do not want the government telling them that they cannot decide when it might be the right choice for themselves or those they love (in the case of rape, for example).

Pointing out specific liberal ideas that restrict government interference and empower you to make your own decisions is much more effective than "you are stupid and ignorant. Our way is better. Do what we tell you, because we are so much smarter than you are."

And it has to start with a little respect. There's absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to be self-reliant. Let's start from there.

by Janet Strange on Thu Nov 18, 2004 at 01:29:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

But, to take back "self-reliance"... (3.00 / 1)

...we really have to dismantle what Richard ("What Color is your Parachute?") Bolles terms the "pathological individualism" that rules the roost in American thinking, enthusiastically propped-up by conservatism. The fact is that we are all in some way independent from each other and in some ways dependent on each other. But one of the great tricks of conservatism, since the days of Ayn Rand, has been to build up this notion of "individualism" as being the superior state for a human in which he or she is completely independent of anyone else, can survive and even prosper without a single bit of help from anyone else, and would be diminished by having to take help from any other human. As long as that myth is held up as the ideal, the very personification of "freedom," "independence," "self-reliance," and so on, these terms can and will only be used as a club against us. However nuanced one's arguments (as are found below) that universal health care would, in practice, increase one's self-reliance, under the myth of pathological individualism, such a program would constitute taking handouts from the government and being dependent on others, and therefore something dishonorable. We will not get anywhere on that point unless we thoroughly debunk the myth of pathological individualism. The trick here is re-framing, since, even though we can quote all the facts we want on how no one is actually "self-made," as long as the listener has his or her own frame of the "rugged individualist" on one side and "parasitic weaklings" on the other, all the facts in the world will fail to make a dent.
by JDWalley on Thu Nov 18, 2004 at 05:59:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: But, to take back "self-reliance"... (none / 0)

I agree one hundered percent, and we need to explore and publicize the ways in which the American rugged individualist receives tremendous amounts of help from government and the institutions of civil society.  I've written an article about this on my website, www.thegoatherder.com, and I hope to use the site as a forum to explore exactly this issue.
by The Goatherder on Thu Nov 18, 2004 at 09:28:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: But, to take back "self-reliance"... (none / 0)

The trick here is reframing

Excellent point. Economically, I consider myself a "success" for one reason because I can take care of myself (I'm independent, self-reliant) financially. I teach at a community college so I'm hardly rich. but I can pay my bills, I'm buying a home, I can afford to pay for my daughter's college tuition. And I'm very proud of the fact that she is making straight A's while working half-time to support herself (I only pay the school bills).

But she couldn't do it if I didn't pay her tuition, I couldn't have gotten the doctorate that led to my current job if my (now ex-) husband hadn't been willing to support our family while I went to graduate school, and neither one of us could have gotten an education if the taxpayers of this state hadn't been willing to fund the state university system.

As an unrepentant bleeding heart liberal, like most of my kind I want to "help" other people. One reason that I prefer teaching at a community college to university life (I've taught at both) is that I have so many students here that have not had the advantages that most university students have had. Many grew up in poverty, had parents who never finished high school, went to crummy underfunded inner-city schools, etc. But they are working, taking care of their kids, and staying up til 3am studying for my exams because they too want to be able to take care of themselves and their families--to be self-reliant. And it gives me pure joy to be able to help them realize their dreams (I really do love my work).

This is key to the necessary reframing. As liberals, we do believe in "taking care of" the truly helpless--the sick, the elderly, those who have been just plain knocked on their asses by bad people or bad luck. We're having no part of the "pathological individualism" that says, I've got mine, screw you. But we need to be able to communicate that we too admire self-reliance and independence, that conservatives don't own that vision. That we believe that communities should work together to give each other the necessary skills and resources to become responsible adults who can take care of themselves.

by Janet Strange on Fri Nov 19, 2004 at 02:44:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Conservatism (none / 0)

It is too easy to define "conservatism" negatively by accepting the false premise that  right-wing Republicans are "conservatives". But they are not. "Conserve" means to preserve. "Conservative" is meaningless in a vacuum, instead gaining meaning with respect to the existing institutions or norms that are the subject of intended preservation.
It would be "conservative" to preserve the values embodied for centuries in our Bill of Rights (for example, free speech, separation of church and state); that is not what Bush and his minions have in mind at all, hence they are not "conservative", but instead are promoting a radical fundamentalist agenda, restricting free speech, extending right-wing media control over the terms of debate and expression, and integrating Christianity as the de facto state-sponsored religion.
Nor is it "conservative", in the economic sense, to deplete surpluses and spend money one does not have.
Nor is it "conservative" to promote dirty air, dirty water, destruction of forests-- "conservation"  and "conservative" are consistent in derivation and meaning, so those who oppose conservation are not conservative.

Lakoff's views on framing of issues are important here, as elsewhere.  As progressives, our goal is to recast the terms of the debate, which includes showing that the professed conservatives are in fact radical fundamentalists whose intolerance is contrary to traditional American values.

by donarbor on Wed Nov 17, 2004 at 11:20:19 PM EST

Re: Conservatism (none / 0)

I wouldn't call Bush's brand of religion "Christianity." It's a radical sect that doesn't represent the majority of Christianity's practioneers. I know this is fish in barrel, but we need to be careful about how we control our language.
J.H. Grimson
by JHGrimson on Thu Nov 18, 2004 at 02:26:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

What you are presenting... (none / 0)

...is a perfect example of how conservatives have won the public debate over the past thirty years.

They have worked for a long time to redefine "conservatism" as "the desire to conserve that (OPTIONAL: of the past) which is good." That's a nice P.R. ploy, since who can be in favor of wiping out that which one finds good? It's a perfectly empty definition that does little but make conservatism "comfortable," and lead to people to identify with it.

But, in fact, conservatism as a political philosophy, at least as far back as the time of Burke, has always meant conserving a particular world-view and philosophy, which is that of the preservation of a rigid class system and a moneyed gentry considered "superior" to all those whose laboring meant that they had little time to understand "the finer things of life." Whether it was the nobility of the 18th century or the "rich and famous" of today, conservatism has always been about conserving a strict heirarchy of social standing and political power, no matter how they may try to re-frame the issue as a general desire to "conserve." (Surely the environmental policies of modern-day conservatives should give the lie to that notion!)
by JDWalley on Thu Nov 18, 2004 at 06:14:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Although, To Be Fair (none / 0)

Conservatives have always tried to present their views as if they were the only possible way to really think, as well as preserving what could be saved of a glorious long-lost past.  This fundamental con is much older than Burke--it goes all the way back to Heriod's Works and Days, which obviously drew on even earlier ideas.  

For conservatives, hierarchy is built into the very structure of the world, to the exclusion of egalitarianism and thus there is no distinction between "preserving what is best of the old" and preserving hierarchy.  A most telling reminder of how perverted this view is can be found in Aristotle's argument that the master knows what's in the slave's best interest far better than the slave possibly can. In the war of ideas, Aristotle was perhaps the original neo-con. Talk about pre-emptive war!

by Paul Rosenberg on Thu Nov 18, 2004 at 08:06:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I finally understand Conservatism (none / 0)

Until I read Agre's article Conservatism was just a jumble of disconnected irrational parts. Agre's article also gave me a deeper understanding of Lakoff's framing principles. Because my frame of understanding was antithetical to conservative ideas their "facts" and arguments bounced off my frame and I perceived them as an irrational jumble. I could never understand how anyone could find them persuasive.

The "Bush haters" attack is a perfect example. It seemed so obviously pretentious to attack anyone who disagreed with or criticized Bush as a "hater" that I completely disregarded it as unworthy of response. Then I saw it over and over and over again. I had the same reaction to Rush Limbaugh saying the Democrats hate the military or Dobson saying Leahy was a "hater of God's people". This is clearly a well thought out and developed PR campaign to demonize liberals. Repeated in enough different contexts it will become an established frame in portions of the electorate. Once the "liberal hater" frame is established any rational argument will bounce off.

Likewise Sowell and Will's irrational charge that criticism of the wealthy is simple envy. I don't know how many times I've seen this recycled nonsense. For those who eventually accept this frame the wealthy are above criticism unless you are a billionaire like Warren Buffet or George Soros. Everybody else is just envious, so their opinion doesn't count.

One thing Agre is right about is that we can't continue to let them get away with it. Media Matters has the right idea. We need to counter attack 365/24/7. Every idea that is not aggressively challenged slowly becomes part of the conventional wisdom.

Agre is also right about conservative think tanks. They are grooming and finishing schools for next generation conservative leaders. They also pump out editorials to rural newspapers across the country and talking points to conservative commentors. Conservatives have an extensive network that provides income and employment to conservatives. We have nothing on the left to match.

by Gary Boatwright on Thu Nov 18, 2004 at 12:27:51 AM EST

I am very excited about the Book Club discussion (none / 0)

I think that this has enormous potential to not only bring to light ideas that may not find their way to the mainstream (such as this piece), but to illuminate the myriad of views that we as liberals (or progressives, or populists, or whatever) bring to the table.

On to the subject at hand:

On the whole, I thought Agre did a very good job illuminating some of the problems that we as liberals face when confronted with conservatism (especially the nefarious brand the current administration brings with it). His arguments are clear and concise, if at times a bit stilted, i.e. the jab at Snoop Dog, or oversimplified in the case of Agre's description of conservatism in the 1800's.

Agre devotes the majority of the section on How Conservatism Works to the "Destruction of Language," with the next largest section being the "Destruction of Reason." I think Agre missed a huge opportunity here to address what I feel goes back to the root of the problem, and that is the lack of critical thinking that is rampant in this country. He addresses the problem in his conclusions on How To Defeat Conservatism, "Teach Logic," but his summary is far too brief.

Unless a person can think critically and objectively, any discussion of logic simply goes in one ear and out the other. A person may think that their reactions, responses, or opinions are logical, but without the crucial element of critical thinking, their thinking has no basis in reality. For these people, their knowledge filter has become warped or fogged. A person's knowledge filter works by comparing new images we see in the world with old images in memory. When a person's knowledge filter fails, fantasy and reality merge (think tin-foil hats). But if the knowledge filter engages, and the images seen contradict images in memory, without critcal thinking to "correct the course" so to speak, cognitive dissonance occurs. Cognitive dissonance, along with disingenuousness is, I feel, at the core of almost every person who votes against their own best interests by aligning themselves with Conservatives.

How do we counter this? Straight logic will not work, because cognitive dissonance will kick and effectively shunt any logical arguments away from their mark. We must analyze what is the primary motivation for why these people belive what they do. Is it a moral reason? Is it simplicity? Or is it comforting? In most, it is probably a combination of these, and other reasons. Therefore, to counter and shatter these belief systems, liberals must construct a meaningful and satisfying system of morality and meaning to replace the poisoned rhetoric of the Conservatives. And this is where Agre's point of Building the Democratic Party comes in to play.

I hope that I have not strayed too far off of the mark, or made most of you shake your heads wondering, "Where in the world is he going?" I simply wanted to highlight what I think is the primary problem encountered when confronting conservatives and Conservatism, and that is the lack of critical thinking embodied in the very core of conservatism. Getting a person to think critically, as well as logically, is the key to defeating the pestilence of Conservatism in the US.

by dwckabal on Thu Nov 18, 2004 at 12:38:39 AM EST

Critical thinking is crucial (none / 0)

I think what Agre is also pointing out in the paragraph Winger highlights is that the structure and system for developing ideas and new talent is imperative:
Build the Democratic Party
Your model should be Pat Robertson. He is as extreme on the right as anybody in the United States is on the left. Yet his people took over large parts of the Republican Party. They did this in three ways: laboriously designing a mainstream-sounding language, identifying large numbers of talented activists and training them in the day-to-day work of issue and party politics, and building their own communications systems. Liberals should do the same.

Along these lines liberals have made a bare bones beginning with some of the links over at Atrios under "Activism":

Wellstone Action Center for American Progress
Move On
Progressive Majority
Media Matters
ACT
NDN

When these groups can compete with the Heritage Foundation, AEI, talk radio and Fox News, then we will be competitive in the realm of ideas once again.

by Gary Boatwright on Thu Nov 18, 2004 at 01:13:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I am very excited about the Book Club discussi (none / 0)

Agre has written a good deal about critical thinking elsewhere. You just can't put everything relevant into one short essay. Believe me. I've tried.

That said, I beleive it's mistaken to blame cognitive dissonence for people voting against their own interests. People's interests are not what they vote for so much as their identities. This is Lakoff's point. And it is not cognitive dissonance that Lakoff points to so much as it is cognitive coherence with an underlying family model.  So hold onto that thought, and we'll continue this discussion when we do Don't Think of an Elephant.

by Paul Rosenberg on Thu Nov 18, 2004 at 08:26:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Book Club discussion (none / 0)

Therefore, to counter and shatter these belief systems, liberals must construct a meaningful and satisfying system of morality and meaning to replace the poisoned rhetoric of the Conservatives.

This point can't be overemphasized. Too much of what we call our morality "system" isn't really a system at all. The conservatives have a morality system, and we simply have the opposite viewpoint of each of their issues, with nothing to tie the viewpoints together. Lakoff addresses this at the end of Chapter 1 of Don't Think Of An Elephant with his discussion of strategic initiatives and slippery-slope issues (yes, slippery-slope issues can be good things, too.)

IMO, once we can convince the general population that we, too, have a morality system, then we will have an easier time convincing people that we aren't just political opportunists taking whatever position happens to have the best poll numbers at the time (which was the basis behind the "Kerry is a flip-flopper" charges, a constant through the whole campaign).

by dwbh on Thu Nov 18, 2004 at 10:29:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Who is Burke? (none / 0)

Agre continually references this person in his essay, but alas, I have no idea who is he talking about.  Perhaps it is my relatively neophyte status in politics or my tendency to shun conservative literature, nonetheless, I have no idea who Burke is and what he has written.

All in all, I thought the essay was well thought out and thought-provoking though it tended to drag at some points and go on and on in others.  Some of it seemed to rehash topics others have delved into at length (i.e. the trashing of Gore/right wing media ala Alterman and Brock, and the reframing of language ala Lakoff), but it did present a few original ideas that were interesting.  

A few comments on language:  In his section discussing the destruction of language he referenes Al Franken and his unwitting comment supporting the Republican idea of the media elite, it occurred to me that we all do this to a certain extent when referencing abortion stances.  This is obvious and has been discussed before, but the phrase pro-life is their phrase yet we have bought into it.  Every time we use that phrase we are buying into their narrative.  Liberals in general should start using the term anti-choice to describe them.  That is, after all, what they are.  Why give them their pro-life phrase when it sounds so positive and life-affirming.  By calling it anti-choice we are both calling it what it is and framing in a negative way.  Also why not refer to the conservative judges that Bush attempts to appoint as "DESTRUCTIONISTS" instead of the term they like, constructionists.  It is much more descriptive and also negative in connotation.

And as a sidenote, why don't the liberals in Hollywood really help out and fund think tanks?  Someone needs to lobby these guys, particularly strong activists like Tim Robbins, Susan Sarandon, and Sean Penn to funnel money into a liberal infrastructure.  There aren't many Soros and Buffets so we need all the millionaires we can get.

Anyway, all in all a good essay, but I'm looking forward to the books much more.

by cls on Thu Nov 18, 2004 at 12:41:04 AM EST

Re: Who is Burke? (none / 0)

Edmund Burke was probably THE leading conservative philospher at the time of the French Revolution.

Wikipedia has a good summary here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmund_Burke

by Gary Boatwright on Thu Nov 18, 2004 at 01:05:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Who is Burke? (none / 0)

Right on as far as getting funding for think tanks cls. I think this shortcoming was pointed out in The Nation magazine about ten years ago. I couldn't find the article in their search engine, but I distinctly recall reading about this quite a while ago. Unfortunately, liberals like to throw their money at worthy causes like saving whales, baby seals and large trees. Not that these are unworthy, but they don't deliver at the ballot box.

I think we are going to find out over the next four years just how more important politics is to protecting the environment than Greenpeace and all of the liberal environmental groups wrapped together.

Right wing billionaires have been pouring money into conservative idea factories for decades. We have a lot of catching up to do.

by Gary Boatwright on Thu Nov 18, 2004 at 01:29:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Agre's paper (none / 0)

Agre's heart is in the right (I mean left) place, obviously, but I was disappointed by the paper.
It annoys me to see the argument blunted by such flagrant card-stacking and so many sweeping generalizations disguised as evidence. Like the opening questions, the answers Agre offers are indeed simple, too simple. What has long been recognized as conservatism became an articulated political doctrine in reaction to the French Revolution; what it sought to conserve was a complex web of English customs and institutions, with the governing role of an aristocracy as one part of all that. It does us no good to portray conservatives then or now as fixated only on maintaining an aristocracy by means of linguistic tricks, nor to engage in bickering about what conservatism really means. That would hardly count as seizing the rhetorical initiative. Picture yourself trying to make this work with a hard-bitten red-state evangelical. Or an inner-city single mother. Now picture yourself hearing Lincoln quoted against you: "What is conservatism? Is it not adherence to the old and tried, against the new and untried?" (Speech, 27 Feb. 1860). We would do well to consider why Lincoln might have said that.
My strongest objection, though, is against Agre's implicit notion that a language - our language or any other - can be `destroyed' by the kinds of manipulation he describes. I've spent my adult life studying the details of structure and use in several languages. There are patterns, of course. Everywhere in a language, wherever you look. Lots and lots of somewhat similar competing patterns. What we think of as `the language' is a desperate abstraction from these, a pious hope that broader and broader generalizations will bring the complexity under control by distracting us all from the overwhelming mass of details. Then it becomes more convenient to deal with the abstractions, instead of the data. In much the same way, astronomy seems like an orderly affair in which the motions of planets and their moons can be described by neat equations. But the lunar equation, the one that is expected to tell us just what position the moon will be in at a certain moment in the future, goes on for many, many pages, as less and less significant variables are added in order to improve its accuracy: every body in the solar system has a role, no matter how tiny, in moving the moon. But I personally don't seem to be able to affect it, no matter how hard I try. And no matter how hard they try, the Undead can't move English very far, and neither can we.
In the end, I feel, keeping the focus on words and their proper meanings is not going to win any verbal battles for our side: it's a waste of time. One theme we will encounter again and again in these discussions is the comforting but ultimately useless notion that there is a universally correct and true or at least neutral vocabulary for political discourse, and that one side or the other is deviating from it on purpose, for unwholesome reasons: I argue rationally; they play dirty tricks. The facts are much shaggier than that: rhetoric, what Agre's and all the other rhetors use, is nothing less than a body of techniques, codified in various ways since ancient Greece, for using vocabulary and patterns or figures of argument strategically in persuasive discourse. Among the best places to look for some useful tools is in the old literature of propaganda analysis from the late 30s onward (see for instance the material indexed on www.propagandacritic.com). Framing, as a technique and a conscious strategy, is nothing new either. We should accept, I think, that rhetoric is a tool anyone can pick up and use. Rather than try to educate bystanders about evil propaganda techniques, we can simply use the same techniques ourselves. I really don't see any effective alternative. The trick is to do it with more wit and persuasive effect than our enemies. That shouldn't be so hard.

by Guatemala Jack on Thu Nov 18, 2004 at 01:10:16 AM EST

Re: Agre's paper (none / 0)

You lost me Guatemala Jack. You started out criticizing Agre for flagrant card-stacking and so many sweeping generalizations disguised as evidence. You conclude by saying we should do it with more wit and persuasive effect than our enemies.

As far as how hard it will be, the conservatives have a huge lead in the business of idea factories. In addition to a dozen or more right wing think tanks you can add the right wing megaphone of talk radio, Fox News, the WSJ, the Washington Times, the Weekly Standard and National Review. Even if we figure out how to win the war of ideas we have to figure out how to let the American public in on our secret success.

by Gary Boatwright on Thu Nov 18, 2004 at 01:39:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Agre's paper (none / 0)

Sorry: I didn't intend to suggest that we only do what they do, just better. I think that the facts are not neutral, and that there's an important role for the kinds of arguments, backed up by facts, that a good think tank could put out, and a supporting web of media outlets could help propagate. I think we need that. At the same time, a counterintelligence strategy should be implemented to disrupt and discredit their propaganda. (Bless Al Franken.) For that, doing the same kinds of rhetorical attacks is an important activity, as a part of discrediting them generally. On both sides now, it seems, most activism is directed at one's own side. Many reactionaries are used to a comfortable approval level and can be at least briefly shocked into a moment's thought by being challenged, or perhaps by seeing how they look from the other side. I think a lot of the nastiness from the far right is  fueled by anxiety and insecurity: you know, English only because maybe they're talking about me. Later on, I hope we can talk about authoritarianism. Orcinus is a great site for that. I think there's a real danger now.
by Guatemala Jack on Thu Nov 18, 2004 at 06:52:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Agre's paper (none / 0)

I agree 100% that there is no neutral language free from rhetoric. This has always seemed self-evidennt to me. (But, then, my father was an Enligh professor who grew up working class.) However, I don't see Agre's argument depending on this assumption. You don't need to hold such a neutralist view of language to recognize that painting Gore as a liar in 2000 was a baseless, deliberate, well-orchestrated smear campaign that had no counterpart on the other side. Nor do you need to hold a neutralist view of language to recognize that this was anything but an isolated incident.

Nor do I find most of the other things Guatemala Jack says--which are generally true, IMHO--to be cogent criticisms of Agre's arguments.  Agre is not concerned with 99.99% of language. He is concerned with a very specific slice of it. So the whole extended metaphor about the equation of the moon's motion--which I really enjoyed, btw--is beside the point.  

Agre is also not trying to talk to an imaginary red-state evangelical or inner-city single mother. He is talking to us, using one sort of language, and he is advising us--just as Guatemala Jack is--that we should "speak American."

Thus, while I find myself agreeing with almost all the details in Guatemala Jack's comment, I can agree with none of the larger points he draws from them as criticisms of Agre's essay.

In particular, I think it's highly naive to think that we're still fighting against 1930's era propagandists. Sure it's quote useful to read the older criticisms of propaganda. It's even more useful to be fully versed in the classical fallacies. But what we're up against today is more than that. Even if it is overwhelmingly composed of the same old pieces, they are put together differently, and that has to be understood.

We are, for the most part, not up against single fallacies deployed one at a time. We are up against intricate structures of lies--some in the form of false "facts," others in the form of false arguments, others simply implied--which are in turn sedimented into widely shared psychological pathologies which hierarchical society breeds, propagates and depends on.  The opposite of this is not neutral language, as Guatemala Jack so rightly points out. The opposite is a language of insight, liberation and psychological healing--which is why I think Lakoff is so important, for example.  But Agre is completely compatible with Lakoff, as far as I can tell, and I've been reading both of them for years.

by Paul Rosenberg on Thu Nov 18, 2004 at 07:52:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Agre's paper (none / 0)

Ah, your posting wafted me back to those faculty meetings I miss so much. Not since then has anyone 'agreed' with me in just this way. So, what IS the difference between older and current political and cultural propaganda? Not the pieces, you say, but the pattern? Tell us more.
I'll concede this much: Agre seems to have understood his audience better than I understood this one.
by Guatemala Jack on Thu Nov 18, 2004 at 11:13:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Agre's paper (none / 0)

I would say that the difference can be understood in a number of ways.

One is simply to contrast Richard Nixon and Joe McCarthy. Nixon is several levels more sophisticated. He was the exception in 1950, McCarthy was the rule. Now we have several generations who learned from Nixon--directly or indirectly. They learned stealth campaigning, for example. (Nixon used anonymous smear phone calls back in the 1940s, just like the ones Bush/Rove used against McCain in South Carolina in 2000.) They learned the use of false presumption as a background to their foreground fallacies and lies. Lee Atwater, Roger Ailes and Karl Rove are just three examples of the sorts of political operatives that Nixonian politics produced.  There have always been people like them around. But since the 1970s there's been a enormous infrastructure devoted to nurturing, sustaining and cloning them.  As a result, what they do has become the norm. The baseline for assessing or measuring political practice and political discourse.

Now, all the above is terribly vague. But it helps to explain what could NEVER have been done in 1952. It would NEVER have been possible to successfully run a national guard deserter against a decorated WWII hero--not for dogcatcher, much less President.  How has this become possible?

Well, part of it is an ancient fallcy blown up to epic proportions--Poisoning the Well. With 40+ years of propaganda, the right wing has so poisoned  the well that they can dismiss anything they don't like that appears in the mainstream media. Anything. And the media knows this. So that,in turn, influences what the media choses to do. It influences how the media defines "balance" to give equal weight to baseless lies and overwhelmingly documented truths.

Thus, Poisoning the Well is not simply a foreground fallacy you can point to in someone's argument. At it's best, it has done its worst damage behind the scenes. You won't even hear an echoing of it spoken out loud. You will simply see the results. Or, rather, you won't see the results, just as you didn't see repeated stories about how George W. Bush gamed the system and got an "honorable discharge" for duty that no one saw him perform, and that no one evaluated him for.
It's this sort of sedimenting of fallacies into the realm of conventional wisdom and shared cultural assumptions that is different today. Which is not to say that there weren't deep fallacies aplenty in the 1930s--particularly about race, class and gender. But those were primarily the results of ancient cultural forces. Politicians exploited them in relatively superficial ways. Today, we have political actors working for years to embed such fallacies deep into the matrix of cultural assumptions. And that is something new in our political system.  (Though, of course, colonial powers have long done this sort of thing to the populations they have conquered.)

by Paul Rosenberg on Thu Nov 18, 2004 at 12:27:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

unevenly poisoned wells (none / 0)

Sure. However, the poisoning seems to have been more successful in some regions than others, suggesting to me that something lingering in the water table of the Confederacy and the disputed western territories of the time has potentiated the poison there. There are cultural differences involved that seem very persistent. Perhaps the poisoning is not the real problem, or only a part of it.
by Guatemala Jack on Thu Nov 18, 2004 at 03:14:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It never stops! (none / 0)

I just checked in at Media Matters and this is one of the stories Brock has posted: linked text

U.S. News' Barone accused Dem pollster Greenberg of "blood libel" for saying 1988 Willie Horton ads were race-baiting

Conservatives have absolutely no shame in how they distort and manipulate emotionally laden phrases. They seem to be on some sort of anti-semitism tirade lately. Here are three more examples of abusing anti-semitism:

The Weekly Standard  linked text

David Brooks in the NY Times  linked text

This last one is a WSJ editorial that I access through a keepmedia subscription. Here's a summary:

Others have gotten in trouble for pointing this out, but let's give up the charade. When a member of the enlightened classes, or Pat Buchanan, makes reference to a "neocon," what he's saying is "yid." That's right, "neoconservative," particularly in its shortened form, when employed by a nonconservative (or by Buchananites) and therefore meant derogatorily, is the modern, albeit more specific, word for "kike" that the left can say--and it has been doing so liberally (no pun intended) ever since American conservatism became yet something else that Jews have managed to benefit from--the conquered, final frontier of that famous Jewish manipulation. ... For a while, I couldn't tell whether the word was a euphemism or a slur, but from the resentful tone with which it was being employed by certain contingents ("pushy neocons" is another popular one), I could discern that the term's usage was undergoing a transition. After all, ethnic slurs can start out as euphemisms (meant to avoid identifying anyone blatantly by nationality) before evolving into derogations. "Colored" was a way to avoid the N-word, but today it doesn't go over very well itself. And a century ago Jews jokingly called one another by their Ellis Island designation "keikle" (Yiddish for "circle")--until the joke was co-opted by those hostile to Jews.
Ms. Gorin, a contributing editor of JewishWorldReview.com, performs with RightStuffComedy.com.


by Gary Boatwright on Thu Nov 18, 2004 at 01:53:00 AM EST

Entrepreneurship, again (2.50 / 2)

This has been referenced by several discussions above. I think this is a distinctly American idiom that can truly find a maximum-size audience. Everyone in America wants to build a better mousetrap!

Years ago, I will now confess, I was an active socialist. However, I failed in persuading any of my colleagues in accepting entrepreneurship as a viable force in fomenting significant social reform. The other socialists all claimed that the desire for the better mousetrap was a degraded form of misanthropic capitalist ethos, sort of a homeless bourgeois sentiment.

Okay, go read the Communist Manifesto if you haven't, because you really should. However, once read, you will find that it is just wrong for our nation.

It is precisely that we want to grow and improve that impells our getting up in the mornings. The monolithic radical right has no affinity for competition. I, however, am an entrepreneur. I believe I can do better than my competition. In fact I was just at a favorite neighborhood bar with my better half, celebrating a minor business victory today. There isn't a better feeling than succeeding on one's own, and knowing the combination of gratification, mixed, in quite generous proportions, with humility; for any success a person has depends on so many efforts and sacrifices from other people. Okay, well, unfortunately, this little victory has once again preventing mois from once again reading the entire Agre essay, which I promise to do now! Thanks for all the excellent insights above. And thanks especially to Chris for the superhuman effort he puts forth every day.

J.H. Grimson
by JHGrimson on Thu Nov 18, 2004 at 02:55:17 AM EST

Entrepreneralism and justice - English experience (none / 0)

Have the democrats really woken up to this Chris?

One of the radical changes that the British labour party went through after its FOURTH consecutive defeat in 1992 was reformulating its values on this. I was part of that process, and while many on the old left or right simply see New Labour as an opportunistic attempt at 'triangulation', they miss the profound shift in attitudes to the free market. With the fall of the Berlin wall, the rising costs of the welfare and various disastrous attempts at state ownership of industry, we arrived at certain key conclusions.

  1. EMPLOYMENT was a much better way of alleviating poverty than handouts and welfare payments.

  2. A THRIVING ENTREPRENEURIAL MARKETPLACE was the best way of increasing employment - and most jobs came from small businesses and individual talent - NOT large corporations.

  3. Most inequality in the market was caused by BARRIERS TO ENTRY. Lack of accesss education, health, childcare was the main reason people were left behind.

  4. Instead of a FREE MARKET, New Labour politicians began to formulate the idea of a FAIR SOCIAL MARKET. The role of the state was to lower the barriers of entry, provide regulation, infrastructure, education and health so that all individuals could have access to the benefits of work.

Since American politics is so different, I'm not sure how this narrative might apply over there. But it seems to me that the Republicans won by creating a coalition between conservatism with classic free market republican values. This is an uneasy alliance, and one of the ways to defeat the Republicans (as it was to defeat the conservatives in 1997) might be to separate the authoritarians from the economic libertarians. You could do this with several wedge issues.

  1. HEALTH AND EDUCATION. The classic free market theory of competition requires talent to be able to enter to the market place. But if poor families have little or no access to healthcare or education, how can they compete with the children from privileged backgrounds. 'No Child Left Behind' is a gesture in this direction, but I'm sure every statistic from the last four years, and the next four years ahead, will show a growth in child poverty, a more unequal and class based system developing, in which 'birth right' rather than talent is the key indicator of success.

  2. THE ROLE OF CORPORATES. These are often attacked among liberal circles as some kind of Chomskian conspiracy, which seems to ignore the facts that corporations are much more transient and temporary. I forget the precise statistic (I could look it up) but something like half the top 20 corporations didn't exist ten years ago.

Rather than attack corporate excess from a conspiratorial quasi Leninist position, why not point out their role in snuffing out small and medium sized businesses: the way they lobby for government contracts, twist legislation to provide an unfair playing ground. Michael Moore's depiction of the small guy fighting corporate outsourcing and downsizing fails to point out where salvation might lie - it won't be through subsidy or some new deal government created job - it will be through training, innovation, and some smaller more flexible enterprises.

The government doesn't owe them a job - but it has a duty to bust monopolistic trusts, unfair regulation, lack of access to training, childcare and health provision.

3. CLOSED MARKETS versus FAIR AND FREE MARKETS.

Conservatism seems to be a form of aristocracy because it creates a self serving elite, a closed market for its members. It looks for economic and social stability in a class of protected like-minded inward looking groups.

Conservatism serves the interests of only a minority of Americans. So far it has managed to gain majority support by still appealing to older style republicans who believe in the enlightment ideas of secularism and liberty, but still associate the Democrats with big government and state control.

4. ATTACK AND REGROUP

The Republicans currently comprise an uneasy alliance of social authoritarians and economic libertarians. You will never win over the social authoritarians, and everything they believe is contrary to what you value. But the economic libertarians could be persuaded that the market place needs key strategic regulation to make it function properly

But you also have to renew your own base. This means remaining true to your values, but not being wedded to outdated solutions (many of them from the 1930s) to the glaring gaps of social justice.

You have to point out that Democrats believe in social justice and liberty MORE than they believe in big government. You have to show, through a NEW liberalism and that equal rights and equality of opportunity can be pursued through other means as well.

In short, you have to lose the tag of liberal elitism and argue once again that you are the party of the many, and they are the party of the few.

by Londoner on Thu Nov 18, 2004 at 09:13:08 AM EST

Re: Entrepreneralism and justice - English experie (none / 0)

I agree completely with your suggested strategy and its goals.
Providing access to a culturally and economically worthwhile education at public expense is the foundation for any far-reaching reforms, and what a job that will be to deliver.
by Guatemala Jack on Thu Nov 18, 2004 at 11:22:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: English experience (none / 0)

Londoner -
If you push the thread - I think many of these themes you cite were taken from the Clinton campaign in '92.  In fact, I recall the Blair people looking at the Clinton/DLC message very closely.

Clinton talked endlessly about the need for re-training: it was a core theme.

Example - Clinton campaigned in '92 on welfare reform, and was defender of free trade (see the US NAFTA debate in '93)

by fladem on Thu Nov 18, 2004 at 10:39:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

to paup rosenberg (none / 0)

Re: How? Racial & Gender Backlash, That's ( / )

i agree..but not lately....not since the CR movement.
and women rights have been more incremental than revolutionary.

neither of these movements fundametaly challenged conservatism as agre defines it.
in fact these movements simply allowed prospering blacks and women to become conservative.

conservatism as agre defines it a movemnt for the sake of itself.  and we all seem to agree at this site that this purely narcicstic ethos ignores the comnon welfare and as such is immoral and unethical.  

its why in the long run we can't be "republican lite" as is the DLC. that strategy will only   succede in winng the odd election without being able to fuandmentally change the political and economic lanscape, which is seeing an increasing disparity betweeen the haves and have nots.  

remember a few salient facts about us...

clinton gave us NAFTA, a highly conservative treaty enhancing the corporate oligarchs(i.e. handfuls of elites).at least that's how it looks to me.

and the latest crop of dems gave  us iraq. if ever there was a time to differentiate oursleves that was it. but we punted for the sake of votes , for the sake of power , (or fear of losing it), and not over principle.

i even challnge you to show me the last time any dems refered to a "progressive" tax system. that was a value that we held dear.perhaps it made good economic sense too. but first and foremost it was "value" that we held. and it it had great biblical allure. Jesus always valued the poor.

we could have a  fundamental shift in power in 2006 (if iraq plays out as epic tragedy) but what good would it do if we have not defined who we are and what we stand for.

by timkaastad on Thu Nov 18, 2004 at 10:14:44 AM EST

Re: to paup rosenberg (none / 0)

Conservatism generally responds to liberation movements in a two-pronged manner: crushing and cooptation. The balance between the two prongs shifts according to the relative power of the liberation movements.

While there has certainly been a good deal of cooptation over the past 30+ years, reaction against racial and gender equity continues to be the rocket fuel of the right. It was not only what got the ball rolling in the 1960s, it's what's kept it alive to this day. Take away the multi-faceted suppression of black voters in the last election, and Kerry's in the White House. It's as simple and clear-cut as that.

Clinton, of course, was a consumate con artist. He did more to savage the interests of women and minorities than any GOP President could possibly have gotten away with. Yet he's still treated like a God by many.  Well, he is like a God, in a way--the way the Gods are portrayed (rather accurately, IMHO) on Xena, as capricious, unprincipled sources of unparalleled menace.

by Paul Rosenberg on Thu Nov 18, 2004 at 11:01:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Very informative (none / 0)

if not slightly repetitive. I think we had already recognized the language twisting from the other side. And we have Bush to thank for that more than anyone....need I say more than "Healthy Forests," "Clear Skies," and "No Child Left Behind."

I had never really thought before about the aristocrital (is that a word) aspects of conservatism before, but it makes sense. What they want to conserve is social order and class systems, not what the average Americans think conservatism means conserving.

I wish he would have provided a few more historical examples, and I'm not so sure we should abandon our passionate friends in Hollywood (or Snoop either).

Also, I could have stood a few more specific examples in the "how to fight them" category rather than just the (very good) three or four broad ideas that he presented.

Overall, it was an enjoyable read. If I may be so bold as to give it a grade, I would say B-, while much better than that in certain areas. I probably actually should have reread before posting this because I'm sure I have left out a lot of stuff I wanted to put in here, and last night my face was buried in the new US News and World Report in the hours after my initial reading.

But this book club was just such a great idea and I really wanted to take part in it. I can't wait for the Kansas book. The library just called a few hours ago to inform me that it's in. Thank god for waiting lists...

by crowbar317 on Thu Nov 18, 2004 at 04:24:25 PM EST

Thank you Chris - I appreciate the forum (none / 0)

This comment is a day late - I wasn't able to read the essay thoroughly until today.  I agree with Mr. Agre's observation of deference to perceived aristocrats.  I am basically a `skills' worker on the lower end of the wage scale at present; however, at the middle of the age-scale.  I have a liberal arts degree - I remember my professors emphasizing over and over the importance of liberal arts degrees and how they were teaching critical thinking.  I maintain I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer - even though I've done some graduate work, I wouldn't consider myself an academic.  To this day I am grateful for my liberal arts degree, and my college's requirements for the subjects of LOGIC and ARGUMENTATION.  Honestly, it would be a stretch for me to put together something as comprehensive as Mr. Agre wrote this past August; however, for someone at my level - it is important that I recognize and understand what is being communicated.  

There were a few things that resonated with me.  I don't have the mental fortitude as many at myDD.com do in analysis and expression of this entire piece; however I am pretty much just going to talk about what resonated with me - so I ask your indulgence.

In the 1900 section..

"The goal of conservatism throughout history has been primarily been to suppress the mob of common people........".  This resonated with me for a particular reason.  It is my own observation that too many Americans spend too much time and energy fooling themselves into thinking they're rich.  I was in a mall along Michigan Avenue in Chicago this week as I often am with my work.  A mall filled with high-end retail stores.  It made me sad to see low-wage earners selling overpriced branded things to people who think they're rich.  The only people winning in this scenario weren't even at the mall - they are the owners and stockholders of the brand-name companies.  They bank on the fact that people will pay four dollars for a paper cup full of coffee.  They bank on the fact American names and American labels of clothing assembled in Sri Lanka mean they will pay more.  These transactions beg a need to have a `context' in order to show off these commodities.  People wear their expensive clothing to the mall to show off.  The point I'm trying to make here is the conservatives don't want people to know they are oppressed by this social context.  People don't want to admit they earn less.  People don't want to admit they are economically poor.  One thing we can do for democracy is to firstly educate people to the fact that they are oppressed and secondly bring-together the integrity and voice of the common people.  How?  I don't know, but it's a thought.

In the 1990's section

"....a new generation of highly trained conservative strategists evolved, on the foundation of classical public relations methods, a sophisticated practice of real-time politics that integrated ideology and tactics on a year-to-year, news-cycle-to-news-cycle, and often hour-to-hour basis...."  This resonated with me in that the older I get the less relevant the broadcast news seems.  So much of what is presented as news is not news.  To me, it's all related to the previous idea - "The goal of conservatism throughout history has been primarily been to suppress the mob of common people........".  Real news shows would educated people on taxes and economics.  The reality is that we get entertainment news over and over.  I'm not anti-organized-sports - but sports coverage passes as news.  Sports coverage is not news.  People like sports for the same reason people like weather - they want to know the `outcome' they didn't know the day before.  We want to know the same thing with news, but we substitute that desire with watching Sports and Weather.   News shows today are all public relations spin - to get people to feel good about how rich and fortunate they are and to accept their lot in life - in other words to suppress the mob of common people.  I have a fantasy of having a news analysis show called "NEWS - NOT-NEWS" where panelists call out news shows and punditry showing people how it is not news.  Case-in-point.  Scott Peterson Trial:  NOT NEWS.  Moreover, Americans are isolated by their media - we are fed the Peterson Trial as news, when there is a lot of world news that we are ignorant about.  Additionally, as I learned in college many moons ago - the way news is presented is not to tell you the news.  The way news is presented is so you watch the commercials between the (pretend) news segments.  Remember, this is (more often than not) about advertising dollars.  The behavior of the right-wing bombasts gets people watching.  It is my humble opinion that all this activity and hoopla erodes democracy.  How do we educate on this?

In the "Teach Logic" section

"Many on the left unfortunately abandon reason because the believe that the actual basis of politics is something called "power".  People like this have no notion of what power is..... " This resonated with me and I couldn't agree more.  How often are we - even though we believe we are taking up the mantle of democracy - how often are we guilty of deference to the aristocracy?  I admit I am guilty ; however, I try to stay informed.  It makes me sad that people think the only jurisdiction they live in is The United States.  Just because the nearly 300 million people in the U.S. have the President of the United States in Common, doesn't make that position a position of some sort of penultimate power.  It only makes it the most common.  Conservatives bank on this ignorance.  Senators, Representatives, Governors, Mayors, City Councilmen do things that affect people's lives.  But, everyone's eyes are on the president.  Again keeping everyone's eyes on the President is a way "to suppress the mob of common people".  One thing we can do for democracy is educate people about all the other jurisdictions that affect them, learn about local government systems.  American news agencies are abettors and coconspirators with conservatives in keeping our eyes on The President and away from the economic and institutional systems that oppress us.  

by paxpax on Thu Nov 18, 2004 at 08:51:03 PM EST

Aristocracy? (none / 0)

I'm not at all certain that Agre's claims about aristocracy are really defensible:

The defenders of aristocracy represent aristocracy as a natural phenomenon, but in reality it is the most artificial thing on earth.

It's difficult to think of any culture or society, contemporary or historical, that doesn't have some version of an aristocracy, or, indeed, a hierarchy of peoples (or class system) of some kind or another, and something which comes about again and again in widely disconnected cultures has got to be considerd as possibly being a natural outcome of human nature.

Where Agre goes wrong is to fall into the naturalistic fallacy, which is to assume that anything which is "natural" is perforce "good".  The fact that a class system, with an aristocracy at the top, is perhaps a natural outcome of human social psychology does not necessarily mean that it is a good thing, any more than the natural human inclination to covet sweets and fatty foods (a sensible adaptation in circumstances where they are not plentiful, and most be consumed whenever they're found) is useful in our modern situation where these foods are easily available, and overcomsumption leads to widespread obesity, heart disease and other maladies.

In fact, a strong argument can be mounted that the ideas of democracy and political equality are important ones, vital to our continuing success as a species, specfically because they serve to keep in check our tendency towards classes and aristocracy, and provide us with governing mechanisms more able to deal with the complexities of the modern world and to provide the needs of the people.

Now, Agre's argument about conservatism is not necessarily undercut if we break the linkage he suggests to aristocracy as an "unnatural" thing -- in his very next sentence after the one above, he writes:

Although one of the goals of every aristocracy is to make its preferred social order seem permanent and timeless, in reality conservatism must be reinvented in every generation.

-- and this can be a true argument even if the first proposition (the "unnaturalness" of aristocracy, is, as I think it is, untrue).  Still, it does make me wonder what other inappropriate unexpressed preconceptions lurk behind Agre's thinking.

unfutz
by Ed Fitzgerald on Fri Nov 19, 2004 at 05:18:32 AM EST

Re: Aristocracy? (none / 0)

Agre's argument is that aristocracy is artificial, not "unnnatural."

Furthermore, I think you have put emphasis on the wrong aspect of the sentence. His argument is not that aristocracy is bad because it is artificial, but that it is bad because its defenders promote it as being the natural order of things. Quite a difference. Looked at in this context, Agre is linking aristocracy with things such as slavery and social Darwinism, which at times were also promoted as being part of the "natural order of things."

by dwckabal on Wed Nov 24, 2004 at 07:16:23 PM EST
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