Shaken To My Core

I sincerely hope that TNR will forgive me for doing this. However, Brad Carson has written such a remarkable article, that I feel I must repost it in its entirety. Please, sign up for TNR--its free!

Read on only if you have the courage. Be warned--it is not pretty.

I don't remember when I first realized that my campaign for United States Senate was in trouble. But one moment stands out. I was in Sallisaw, Oklahoma, home of the annual Grapes of Wrath Festival, in which locals celebrate John Steinbeck's fictional Joad family and their mythical journey from eastern Oklahoma to California. It was a Sunday morning, one week before the third anniversary of the September 11 terrorist attacks, and I had been invited by the pastor of a local Baptist church to discuss the topic: "How Would Jesus Vote?" Both my opponent in the Senate race, Tom Coburn, and I had been invited to what was more or less an interview before the pastor's congregation. I would go first, then Coburn would speak the following Sunday, and a right-wing talk-radio host--no friend of mine, to be sure--would conclude the three-week inquiry into how Jesus would want us to cast our ballots.

Now, I must confess: My own view is that Jesus would probably not vote at all, given the organized corruption that passes for modern American politics. But the idea that Christ Himself might sit out the 2004 election was apparently not under consideration, so I accepted the invitation--much to the pastor's avowed surprise. As an active Baptist who grew up in the Baptist church, I had no illusions that most of my co-religionists were ardent Democrats, but I rarely turned down any chance to make the case for my own candidacy and that of my fellow party members. After all, wasn't Daniel blessed for braving the lion's den?

As I arrived at the church, my wife and I were given the church bulletin, which outlined the weekly selection of hymns and Bible readings. On the back of the bulletin, atop the blank space reserved for copious note-taking during the sermon, was the heading: "WWJV? PRO-LIFE OR PRO-DEATH?" (I favored the partial-birth abortion ban but opposed overturning Roe v. Wade.) In the sanctuary, a 20-by-20-foot depiction of a fetus looked down upon the assembled throng from a projection screen. Superimposed upon the unsettling image--which morphed to show the fetus in various stages of gestation--was fact after fact about abortions in America.

After the morning rituals, the pastor called me to the stage, and we engaged in a lengthy discussion about abortion, homosexuality, "liberal judges," and other controversial matters. After leaving the stage, I rejoined the congregation, and the pastor launched into an attack on the "pro-choice terrorists," who were, to his mind, far more dangerous than Al Qaeda. Yes, he acknowledged, thousands had died on September 11, but abortion was killing millions and millions. This was a holocaust, he continued, and we must all vote righteously. Vote righteously! In 13 months of campaigning across the vast state of Oklahoma, I must have seen or heard this phrase a thousand times, often on the marquees of churches, where, outside of election season, one finds only clever and uplifting biblical bromides. But it was not until that September Sunday in Sallisaw, one of the most Democratic towns in Oklahoma, that I first understood that the seemingly innocuous phrase "vote righteously" was the slogan not of a few politicized churches, but the cri de coeur of millions--millions who fervently believe that their most deeply held values are under assault and who further see this assault as at least tolerated by the Democratic Party, if not actually led by it.

As a defeated Senate candidate in the most red of red states, many people have asked me for insights into the Democratic Party's failure to connect with culturally conservative voters. Much has already been written on this topic, and scholars will add more. But I do know this: The culture war is real, and it is a conflict not merely about some particular policy or legislative item, but about modernity itself. Banning gay marriage or abortion would not be sufficient to heal the cultural gulf that exists in this nation. The culture war is about matters more fundamental still: whether nationality is, in a globalized world, a random fact of no more significance than what hospital one was born in or whether it is the source of identity and even political legitimacy; whether one's self is a matter of choice or whether it is predetermined, before birth, by the cultural membership of one's family; whether an individual is just that--a free-floating atom--or whether the individual is part of a long chain that both predates and continues long after any particular person; whether concepts like honor and shame, which seem so quaint, are still relevant in a world that values only "tolerance." These are questions not for politicians but for philosophers, and, in the end, it is the failure of liberal philosophy that we saw on November 2.

For the vast majority of Oklahomans--and, I would suspect, voters in other red states--these transcendent cultural concerns are more important than universal health care or raising the minimum wage or preserving farm subsidies. Pace Thomas Frank, the voters aren't deluded or uneducated. They simply reject the notion that material concerns are more real than spiritual or cultural ones. The political left has always had a hard time understanding this, preferring to believe that the masses are enthralled by a "false consciousness" or Fox News or whatever today's excuse might be. But the truth is quite simple: Most voters in a state like Oklahoma--and I venture to say most other Southern and Midwestern states--reject the general direction of American culture and celebrate the political party that promises to reform or revise it.

That is what Antonin Scalia famously called the Kulturkampf. And there can be no doubt either that this is a fundamental dynamic in American politics or on which side of this conflict the electorate rests. Last Tuesday, I ran 7 percent ahead of John Kerry, and my opponent ran a full 13 percent behind President Bush. In most states, this would have been more than sufficient to ensure my victory. But not in Oklahoma. At least not last Tuesday. And, while the defeat was all my own, the failure was of the party to which I swear allegiance, which uncritically embraces a modernity that so many others reject.

I first read this one hour ago, but I am still stunned, and shaken. Over at dailykos,. I wrote some pretty inflammatory comments about the "red state rejection of modernity," that Carson describes:
That is not our failure. That is our success. Quite frankly, if Carson is right, then the people he is talking with can go fuck themselves. I am not rejecting modernity. If they are, then we call them on it, and make that our war. The last thing we need to do is reject modernity in order to win votes. I not only draw the line there, I draw it way before that. I'll become a violent insurgent in my own country before I let us slink into the confederacy, the ancien regime, or something even more primordial. Quite literally, over my dead body.
That was my first thought. My latest ones are not much better. My parents are coming into town tomorrow for the first time in over a year. Combining this article with their impending visit has led to some real introspection about where I am from, how I was raised, how it relates to the people described in Carson's article, and even to my first encounter with the Christian right. Being from New York, even Upstate New York, I think I am from one of the few areas in the country where someone would have to go to college to finally meet real conservatives. White evangelicals only make up 5% of the state's population. Now in Philadelphia, I live in a ward that voted over 95% for Kerry.

The difference is so gaping that I admit I an unable to understand it. I'll have a lot more on this tomorrow.


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by nkp on Fri Nov 12, 2004 at 01:56:19 AM EST

Upstate New York?? (none / 0)

Do you mean the Buffalo or Rochester area?

I've lived on eastern LI since I was 7, and went to college in Rochester.  I'd drive back and forth, and be amazed at the contrast between most of the middle part of NY, and NYC.  It's like two different countries.

Most of rural NY tends to be like the mid-west.  Then you have eastern LI, with it's still quite homogeneous, middle-class, suburban white population, who I'd say most are the Reagan democrat type, but tend to be conservative as well.  I've lived in other parts of the country, and people are surprised when they hear about how varied the state is.  Why else would we have a republican governor?  Talk about NY liberals ...

by nkp on Fri Nov 12, 2004 at 02:11:15 AM EST

Progressive Values (none / 0)

If the party of Wall Street can wrap itself in heartland values, then Democrats sure as hell can. It's not about rejecting modernity. It's about addressing country, honor, family, courage, responsibility, duty, and faith with progressive positions. This can be done, this will be done.
by coldeye on Fri Nov 12, 2004 at 02:30:53 AM EST

I understand it all too well. (3.00 / 1)

I have family members who believe like those in that church.  We can barely speak to one another most times.  My existence as a lesbian is enough to make one of them send me what I call nasty-grams fairly regularly.  Always anti-gay.  But, always claiming that Christians are the ones being victimized and that Christianity is about to be banned.  Yes, they really, really believe that.  Blasphemy is everywhere.  The monster in the room.  

Reality doesn't intrude on those belief systems.  The fact that the right is in control of the government and the corporations and the media doesn't even make a dent in their version of reality.  They see themselves as victims with a true battle to wage.  

And I'm their target.  

Nope, I won't allow the right to win this culture war they've started.  To surrender would be to cease to exist.  We would surrender women's rights to their own lives.  We would give up the right to think and learn freely.  We would cease to be Americans.  

Those folks are so thoroughly brainwashed it is frightening.  Yes, they truly believe what they believe.  And they see us as the enemy to be destroyed.  It is as frightening as Naziism.  That is not an exaggeration as far as I'm concerned.  It's like the Taliban - Christian style - about to decend on all of us.

And those who are in it don't realize it will swallow them up, too.      

by maryschoyc on Fri Nov 12, 2004 at 02:32:34 AM EST

Re: I understand it all too well. (none / 0)

Hi mary

You are right about the theocrats; they invoke their religious beliefs to support their Pharisaic aganda and then call any oposition to their non-Christlike  politics "Christian bashing". It's shameful and gives the rest of us Christians a bad name. But I would suggest that things have gotten better in the last 40 years which is why the theocrats are so riled up right now. And I would suggest that strategically the way Clinton campaigned for gay rights in 1992 is a better strategy than a frontal assault that the right wing can falsely characterize as "gays vs. the rest of us". Clinton's campaign for for a general principle of non-discrimination because "we don't have a person to waste"--discrimination on the basis of race, sexual orientation etc. is wrong because all prejudice is wrong. Most people don't suppprt the theocrats' in their desire to roll back gay rights to where they were when gays had to hide their identities, and we can win those people back if we make them see that we Democrats are on their side.

Keith

by keith johnson on Sun Nov 14, 2004 at 05:54:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hey, Koolaid Man! (none / 0)

...don't get to worked up over this. The whole thing is a big psych-out/sour-grapes-delusional-wish. Check out the cover of the TNR on the page - one big pysch-out - the lady with the Kerry sticker and one tear rolling down....

Secondly, this quote from Brad is so much passive-aggressive repostioning. A swipe, an accusation/slander, and the repositioning of the factual truth into a lie all in one very small paragraph:
The political left has always had a hard time understanding this, preferring to believe that the masses are enthralled by a "false consciousness" or Fox News or whatever today's excuse might be.
Maybe we're having a "hard time understanding this", because that is EXACTLY WHAT IS HAPPENING! No not everyone, but with out the deceception, Bush doens't get above 32%-36%. He's trying to marginalize/reposition the people who have figured out the game. We're just all fucking nut now, right Brad.

Total psyche job. The Rush Limbaugh's of the world are definitely running it right now, but they're doing it by deceiving! How does that heck does that set them up for long-term success? Screw this guy and the rest of the triumphant jack-asses. Let them have their Al Bundy moment of highschool glory, which they be able to fondly reflect back on when the whole house of cards comes crashing down.

Political Physics
by cgilbert01 on Fri Nov 12, 2004 at 02:59:10 AM EST

Re: Hey, Koolaid Man! (none / 0)

You raise a good point here -- WTF is going on at the New Republic. John Kerry is precisely the sort of candidate they have been calling for -- economically moderate tending towards conservative (tax cuts, balanced budget), pragmatic on social benefits, intelligent, with a clear vision of the world and the central role of American power in it, personally devout and moral.

Peter Beinart is a secular Jew. He is pro-choice. He is tolerant. Most of the best writers at that magazine, even after its hard turn to the right in the 1980s, have been.

Who the hell do these people want us (I mean Democrats) to be? What is the point of that issue?

Or are they ceding the terrain to TAP and trying to become the house organ of the Heritage Foundation?

by desmoulins on Fri Nov 12, 2004 at 01:00:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Calm down Chris (3.00 / 2)

Put your excellent analytical mind to work and ask yourself;

  • Is Oklahoma a representative sample for the US?
  • Is there corroborating evidence i.e. a consensus of post-election polling that supports this supposition?
  • Other than 9/11, what has significantly changed culturally since the 2000 election and the Clinton stigma of immorality?

To me, it simply identifies a coordinated turnout effort that Rove successfully orchestrated.

by Coldblue on Fri Nov 12, 2004 at 03:04:22 AM EST

Re: Calm down Chris (none / 0)

Yes...Rove did orchestrate the turnout.  BUT, look at the number of states that Rove turned out.  This is NOT just limited to Oklahoma.  
by elscal on Fri Nov 12, 2004 at 12:14:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Religious tyranny, not culture war (none / 0)

The term culture war connotes two streams of thought of equal weight. Not true. What the evangelical and Catholic churches are leading toward is religious tyranny.
by AM on Fri Nov 12, 2004 at 03:14:47 AM EST

Don't be surprised how Bush's win will energize... (none / 0)

...the right to increase their attacks on civil rights.  They feel vindicated.  They feel they have power.  And they will absolutely use it.

Even if they don't change the law on abortion or their other pet projects, expect to see an increase in violence against gays, first and foremost, and everyone else, too.  Expect to see the abortion clinic terrorists get energized.  Expect to see a lot more activity on the local levels, esp in the schools.

What has changed?  They won the 2004 election and they want to rub it in in the very worst way.    

by maryschoyc on Fri Nov 12, 2004 at 03:17:10 AM EST

Stupidity is not a positive issue. (none / 0)

I find it offensive that a Democratic candinate would even suggest that that we have to become dumber to appeal to the baser instincts of the great unwashed so as keep them dumb and poor.

If people are so stuck in the Dark ages as those people in Oklahoma want to sut of their noses to spite their faces thats fine let them fry in the hell of their own making. Just don't drag me down with you.

Me I'm practicing on how to finish all my sentences with a eh.

by Rational on Fri Nov 12, 2004 at 03:26:18 AM EST

Carson's probably a little bitter (3.00 / 1)

Come on,  he just lost to fucking Tom "Sterliization" Coburn.  Tom "Teenage Lesbo Bathroom" Coburn.  Carson is probably in a state of shock.   It wouldn't be surprising if in a fit of frustration he wrote off his loss to a bunch of incorrigibles "at war with modernity itself".

Does he really expect us to believe that he lost because of turmoil over the abstract concept of nationhood?  Or maybe,  those church going voters really want to outlaw all abortions,  not just the partial birth kind.

My question for Brad is what he thinks that these people want after they get bans of abortion and gay marriage.

by zoltar on Fri Nov 12, 2004 at 03:31:26 AM EST

Re: Carson's probably a little bitter (none / 0)

what do they want next?  let's look at what they say and what they do.

They say they want to:

ban birth control
"reform" homosexuals into heterosexuals
enshrine Biblical law as American law
make abortion a capital offense

What they do:

At Bob Jones U, interracial dating was banned.
they bomb abortion clinics
they shoot doctors who provide abortions

Carson may be bitter, but that doesn't mean he's lying or that he's wrong.  Here in WA, we've had Ellen Craswell as the Republican candidate for governor--she proclaimed that she would have only "Godly People" placed in any appointed positions and that HIV-positive people should be marked in some way so that everyone else would know who they are.

The people Carson is talking about aren't just a small aberration, they're a movement.  We need a movement of our own.

by benchcoat on Fri Nov 12, 2004 at 03:51:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Carson's probably a little bitter (none / 0)

Yes, we had Ellen Craswell here in Washington...and she got beaten by a landslide.  (It is speculated that the only reason she got the nomination in the first place was that, under the old "open primary" system we used to have, lots of Democrats "crossed over" to make sure the weakest Republican candidate got the nomination.)  A poor example, if you ask me.

by JDWalley on Fri Nov 12, 2004 at 04:24:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Carson's probably a little bitter (none / 0)

first of all, that's the "late, lamented" open primary--which deserves a short moment of silence. :)  Hopefully this Louisiana-style system will help us get instant run-off voting.

Craswell is a bad example--although she was running pretty well even prior to the crossover idea getting out there--the split between the Foreman and Maleng camps may have gotten her into the top-spot on the ticket anyway.  She is a good example of the mind-set that we are fighting against.  Much as I dislike her viewpoint, I don't think she her statements were intended just to try to motivate support through fear--they were her honest statements about what she wanted to do with the office.

she's also a good representative of a significant portion of the Republican party--not just in OK, but in a fairly blue state like WA.  I'm in Seattle now, but I'm from rural eastern WA--she's pretty much in the mainstream where I grew up.

Carson's opponent Coburn is a better example--his support for executing doctors who perform abortions may have helped him more than hurt him.

I think it's unwise of us to ignore the radical conservative movement.  They are hate-filled and they run largely on fear, but they are a growing movement.  They truly believe what they say and want to see their policies enacted.

Our own ranks have been shrinking.  We need a movement of our own, not just coalitions trying to win elections.  That means we need ideas and a language that communicates those ideas effectively.  We can win, but we're going to have to work to overcome their head start.

by benchcoat on Fri Nov 12, 2004 at 02:51:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Carson's probably a little bitter (none / 0)

THAT IS THE REPUBLIAN FEAR MACHINE.  Unfortunately it works on both sides of the isle.  Most Americans are in the center...spending very little spare time doing what they should be doing, investigating and thinking.  But -- THEY DON'T.  So, comments like, "only Godly People would be placed in any appointed positions & HIV positive people should be marked in some way so that everyone else would know who they are" is a FEAR TACTIC.  It infers, or plants the seed in voters minds, that there are "Evil Doers" currently in appointed positions and that the current administration isn't keeping them "safe" from getting HIV (many people don't know how you get it).  

That is what the Republican Party Platform is at the National and Local levels.....FEAR.  It is working.  We can do the same thing....by planting the seeds of reality, but we don't.  We keep being PC and playing to both sides.  We have to pick one stand and stick with it.  EDUCATION, EDUCATION, EDUCATION.    

by elscal on Fri Nov 12, 2004 at 12:22:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Carson's probably a little bitter (none / 0)

The fact that a crackpot like Coburn can win says how much trouble the Democratic party is in the "red states".

benchcoat, you greatly exaggerate the size and agenda of the far right. The only people talking about banning birth-control are Mel Gibson Catholics and the extremely conservative fundamentalists, both small majorities of the population at large. Most conservative evangelicals I know are all on the pill unless they are actively trying to have a family. Most of those who oppose abortion do support "reproductive freedom", they just draw the line at abortion.

Almost all pro-lifers reject violence. Many pro-lifers also oppose the death penalty, especially the Catholics. Many are women. Few have called for the death penalty to be applied to abortionists, and most oppose prosecuting women.

As for race, this issue is fading fast. Even Bob Jones has given up the interracial dating prohibition. Even in Bob Jones' home of Greenville County, those who opposed a MLK holiday went down in the GOP primary. The majority of Republicans in Greenville, of all places, rejected this kind of racial politics.

One reason Bush won is because of the very successful Republican outreach to minorities. Bush asked the Urban League if the Democratic Party has taken African-Americans for granted. Increasingly, African-Americans believe that they have. Kerry won the African-American vote by a 7:1 margin. However, Gore won it by 10:1 margin and Bush did better among African-Americans than any Republican candidate in recent history. He also closed the gap among culturally conservative Hispanic voters, even though he lost ground among the very Republican Florida Cubans. (He only lost ground among Florida Cubans because he did so well in 2000 thanks to the Elian incident.)

As for enshrining Biblical Law as American Law, these people are also a small minority, even in the buckle of the Bible Belt, South Carolina. For all you can say about Jim DeMint, he was NOT the candidate of the religious right. That was David Beasley, who DeMint defeated 59-41 in the GOP runoff. DeMint was the actually the candidate of the business right. His anti-gay comments caused him to drop noticibly in the polls and he had to apologize.

As for biblical law, if you ask 5 different evangelicals what "biblical law" means, you will probably get 6 different answers. Many do not even want "biblical law" as much as they want a return to the Organizing evangelicals on most issues is like herding cats. The fact that he was able to do so is why they call Rove the "boy genius". Liberals should pay far more attention to the actions of the Catholic right, like Antonin Scalia, Clarence Thomas, Jeb Bush, Bill Pryor, etc. These are far more organized, far more intellectual, and far more powerful than their evangelical counterparts. (But on the bright side, they don't care if you drink on Sundays.)

As for turning homosexuals into heterosexuals, I've known enough "lesbians until graduation" to say that theory is not totally baseless. Bi-sexuals don't fit a standard homo/hetero dichotomy either. The leading researcher on homosexuality who got homosexuality out of the DSM-IV said that SOME homosexuals could change if they were determined to. That being said, the idea that ALL homosexuals can change or ANY homosexual should be forced to change is crazy. However, the beliefs that ALL homosexuals can change or NO homosexual can ever change are both equally dogmatic and equally not based in reality.

These extremists are nowhere near a majority, even in the reddest of red states. We'll never win these extremists, nor do we have to.

However, the Democrats will continue to lose as long as progressives contiue to think:

Anyone who believes in God is an ignorant hick.
Anyone who takes the moral teachings of their faith seriously is a narrow minded bigot.
Anyone who is proud of their Southern heritage is a racist. (Look what happened to Dean when he mentioned the C-word)
Anyone who owns guns is a mentally unstable freak.
Anyone who opposes abortion hates women and wants to bomb clinics and shoot doctors.
Anyone who doesn't celebrate homosexuality hates gays or wants the bedroom police.
Prayer at a football game or "under God" in the pledge represents an establishment of a state religion.

Keep up the attitude that anyone who doesn't agree with you on every issue is an extremist. Keep the self-righteous attitude. Keep losing elections.

Worse that that, the blue-violet folks in the red states have to deal with very red folks running their local Governments.

Meanwhile Ahnold, Rudy, and Pataki just spoke at the RNC. The last Democratic nominee to win a majority (not a plurality) of the popular vote was a born-again Christian from Georgia. If you can't own guns, love Jesus, and still be considered a good Democrat, then the national party better get used to being a permanent minority party.

by wayward on Sun Nov 14, 2004 at 02:27:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Carson's probably a little bitter (none / 0)

I apologize if you think I exaggerate the size and agenda of evangelical conservatives--although I don't think I ever mentioned anything about their size. I said that they are a growing movement, which I think is pretty clear.  

As for the agenda, I have been focusing on what appears to be the extreme end of the specrum.  Like I said, their viewpoint is pretty close to mainstream where I grew up.  When I go home to visit I still see friends there, play cards, talk about family, and I listen to their politics.  They think access to birth control (especially condoms) leads teens having sex and out of wedlock sex, both of which they see as contributing to the "moral decline" of our country.  IOn abortion, they condemn it out of hand, and while they don't advocate violance against abortion providers, they don't condemn those who do.  I'm not saying that this is the mainstream of the national republican party, but they are an active and growing part of the party.

I don't think we will win these people over.  I also think it is dangerous to assume these people don't honestly believe their positions.  They really are speaking with moral conviction.  

I have other friends from childhood who haved moved more to the right as we've gotten older, adopting the same rhetoric as the people I just described.  Both groups talk about politics in almost exclusively moral terms.

I agree with George Lakoff that the left needs to create a new language so that people understand the moral underpinnings of our policy positions. If we don't, we are sure to become a permanent minority party.  I think the Democratic party too often sounds arrogant when speaking about issues (too often our speakers come across as telling America "we know what's better for you").

On another note, please don't ascribe positions to me that I have not stated. you presented this list:

"owever, the Democrats will continue to lose as long as progressives contiue to think:

Anyone who believes in God is an ignorant hick.
Anyone who takes the moral teachings of their faith seriously is a narrow minded bigot.
Anyone who is proud of their Southern heritage is a racist. (Look what happened to Dean when he mentioned the C-word)
Anyone who owns guns is a mentally unstable freak.
Anyone who opposes abortion hates women and wants to bomb clinics and shoot doctors.
Anyone who doesn't celebrate homosexuality hates gays or wants the bedroom police.
Prayer at a football game or "under God" in the pledge represents an establishment of a state religion"

I never said any of these things.  I did concentrate on the most extreme part of the anti-abortion movement--sorry if you thought I was talking about all of them.  

I never said anything about people who in God being ignorant hicks.  I think I said they were honest in their convictions.  I forgot to say they are also devout.  I think that much of the rhetoric from the group I was looking at is rooted in hate and fear, but I never said they were ignorant or hicks.  I also never said it was bad to believe in God--i believe in God.  There are many people in both political parties who have strong religious convictions.

I never said anything about the south--I spoke specifically about Bob Jones U.  I was unaware the interracial dating ban was gone.  my bad.  

I never said anything about guns.  I own a gun.

The main point I wanted to make was that the extreme evangelical movement shouldn't be ignored as "just a bunch of whackos."  Coburn's succeeded not just because the Dems were bad in OK, but because the extreme movement is growing and expanding.  I think a good chunk of the reason they are growing is because they've built a movement that speaks and acts from its underlying moral principles.  I'm not saying they're wrong to believe them.  I think the left needs to learn to speak from their moral principles if they hope to become a majority party in the USA.

by benchcoat on Sun Nov 14, 2004 at 04:36:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Carson's probably a little bitter (none / 0)

I also apologize for not being more clear and precise in wording my positions.  I'm definitely not much of a writer--leaving way too much room for misinterpretation, allowing specific points to look general, etc.  my bad.
by benchcoat on Sun Nov 14, 2004 at 04:43:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Carson's probably a little bitter (none / 0)

And I likewise apologize. What started as a response to your post turned into a somewhat rambling generic rant and I did not distinguish what was what.
by wayward on Sun Nov 14, 2004 at 09:49:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Carson's probably a little bitter (none / 0)

I apologize if you think I exaggerate the size and agenda of evangelical conservatives--although I don't think I ever mentioned anything about their size. I said that they are a growing movement, which I think is pretty clear.  

As for the agenda, I have been focusing on what appears to be the extreme end of the specrum.  Like I said, their viewpoint is pretty close to mainstream where I grew up.  When I go home to visit I still see friends there, play cards, talk about family, and I listen to their politics.  They think access to birth control (especially condoms) leads teens having sex and out of wedlock sex, both of which they see as contributing to the "moral decline" of our country.  IOn abortion, they condemn it out of hand, and while they don't advocate violance against abortion providers, they don't condemn those who do.  I'm not saying that this is the mainstream of the national republican party, but they are an active and growing part of the party.

Evangelical conservatives are the mainstream where I'm from. They do not disapprove of access to birth control, just access to birth control to minors (and possibly the unwed, but I'm not sure.) Likewise, I have never heard of anyone supporting violence against abortion providers.

I don't think we will win these people over.  I also think it is dangerous to assume these people don't honestly believe their positions.  They really are speaking with moral conviction.

I don't think the hard right can be won over. It's the center we have to recapture. And the center is fairly large.

I have other friends from childhood who haved moved more to the right as we've gotten older, adopting the same rhetoric as the people I just described.  Both groups talk about politics in almost exclusively moral terms.

I agree with George Lakoff that the left needs to create a new language so that people understand the moral underpinnings of our policy positions. If we don't, we are sure to become a permanent minority party.  I think the Democratic party too often sounds arrogant when speaking about issues (too often our speakers come across as telling America "we know what's better for you").

I couldn't agree with you more. Let's start talking about the "blue" parts of the Bible. The good Samaratan, the sinful woman of John 8, the penitent thief, the rich young ruler, and of course "whatever you do to the least of these you do unto Me". We need to remind people of the morality of our positions. Our first "born again" President worked for peace, championed human rights, and built a bunch of houses for low income people when he left. Not one American soldier died in combat while he was President, nor did the Soviets ever attack us or our allies. Granted, Carter wasn't a perfect President, but we need to recapture this idea of the behavior of a Christian while in public office. The religious left needs a voice.

I think John Kerry started in this direction, but it's hard to talk about faith when people are debating your excommunication. Also, his Massachusetts background probably didn't prepare him to talk so openly about his faith on the campaign trail. We need people who can express their faith and define our values in terms that people of faith can understand. We also need to make people of faith feel welcome, even if it means occasionally telling our friends to STFU when it isn't helping. (The Republicans do this all the time when someone in the party does not publicly believe in the "big tent" when it comes to race. Even a remark more stupid than racist, like Trent Lott's tribute to Strom Thurmond, was enough to cost Lott the post as the GOP leader in the Senate.)

by wayward on Sun Nov 14, 2004 at 10:37:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Carson's probably a little bitter (none / 0)

Frankly, yes. And I agree with him.
by Ben P on Fri Nov 12, 2004 at 03:52:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Expressing our values (3.00 / 4)

I talked a while back on my own blog about how Democrats are making a mistake when we say that Republican voters are voting against their best interests. I argued then that the mistake in this argument is in assuming that economic self-interest is the thing that people should be most concerned about. For many voters, there are concerns of a much higher nature than universal health care and social security entitlements.

I quoted the passage from Luke 9:25 ("What does it profit a man to gain the world but lose his soul?") to illustrate my point. We simply can't assume that what we consider to be in our best interest is what others consider to be in their best interest. I would argue that a source of the lot of distrust directed towards Democrats derives from the fact that many of us simply don't appreciate the different priorities that others have.

Carson's column deals with this idea as well.

We could well argue that these voters are being lead down the garden path by the party that only appears to promise the reform of American culture. But in doing so we risk feeding the stereotype that Democrats are just a bunch of arrogant busy-bodies who presume to know what is best for everyone else.

Let me be clear on this: We don't need to change our values to win. But we must understand that the narrative structure of Republican values does have a logical structure to it that works for the people who follow it. We can't win people over by simply tearing down that narrative structure. When we do so we simply inspire its adoptees to defend all the more vigorously. We must, instead, provide a competitive narrative that celebrates our values.

We can't talk them into changing their perceptions of us. We must show them that our values are good and worth defending. The best way to do that is to stick with them regardless of their political viability. It is when we abandon them in the face of tough times that we most live up to the stereotype of having no real values at all.

We will show our real character when we are willing to lose rather than sacrifice our values. Because it is only then that we can begin to win.


by Chris Andersen on Fri Nov 12, 2004 at 03:45:44 AM EST

Re: Expressing our values (none / 0)

First we are a secular nation. To quote a few bumper stickers "if you want to live in a theocracy move to Iran" or " The last time religion ruled the world they called it the Dark Ages"

I agree D's must make a stand on principles and the first principle is that cults should have nothing to do with education or governmant.

It is time for us to stop appeasing the theocrats and cultists who want to drag us all back to the 9th century.

by Rational on Fri Nov 12, 2004 at 03:56:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Expressing our values (3.00 / 1)

We are not a secular nation, we have a secular government.  The kulturkampf includes religious liberals vs. the Christian mullahs, not just secular vs. fundamentalist.

We need to appeal to the Matthew 25 Christians who tie their religious values to serving the poor and the marginalized -- not just to dismiss religion.

After all, the man who brought the greatest positive change to this country in the 20th century was not a politician, but a preacher -- martin luther king.

by Ragamuffin Gunner on Fri Nov 12, 2004 at 11:19:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Expressing our values (none / 0)

We were founded as a secular nation.
Jefferson and others of the founding fathers were not cultists ( christian or otherwise) but were Dietists with personel beliefs that saw a higher power in nature and in the need to help explain the dark and ignorant parts of reality.
They belonged to no cults and tried to keep us free of the persiddous influence of those organizations of organized stupidity.
We need to say cultism belongs in the cultist's homes and whatever temples they have.
It does not belong in the public discourse.
Cultism has been a net negative on the world for at least the last 2 milliuem and has beern used to justify genocide, slavery, apartheid and most, if not all, of the evils that have plagued mankind.
If evil people want to believe in cults to justify their evil so be it but keep it out of the public debate and hidden along with those other shameful and dirty parts of the human experience.

by Rational on Fri Nov 12, 2004 at 12:02:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Expressing our values (none / 0)

Rational

Then let me appeal to your rational side: the disdain your express for those of us who believe in God helps the theocrat politicians you despise win elections. Calling our religions "organized stupidity" is of course an expression of insufficient critical thinking on your part, and your analysis of the alleged pernicious effects of religious belief ignores the great horror caused by   atheists like Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot etc. And it ignores the obvious fact that believing a religion that teaches us not to judge others and to take care of the hungry, the thirsty and the folks in prison is not the danger, that arrogant self-righteousness on either side of the secular/sacred divide is. But even if you don't agree with that, you surely can see that most people believe in God and that calling the majority stupid is no way to gain influence in a democracy. You'll never win an election by alienating people of faith; you probably wouldn't even attract a majority of atheists.

Keith

by keith johnson on Sat Nov 13, 2004 at 08:31:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Expressing our values (3.00 / 1)

I agree we make a mistake in assuming that voters went against their own self-interest in the heartland. The problem with responses so far and Mr. Carson's TNR piece is that they voted for the party of wealth creation and concentration. They voted for the ideal, conservatism, that champions capitalism at all costs, an economic model based primarily on greed. I do not doubt what Mr. Carson's constituents believe. What I ask is so what? For us to win their votes they must understand that liberalism also does not accept all that is modernity. The evidence is already there though, they don't care. All of that gets trumped by the religious nature of those that define morality. Regardless of how their "cultural" values are put into policy, they will always vote the way of the party they believe most overtly demonstrates their religious leanings. This is not liberals or democrats.

Who amongst us on this blog are the people watching Everybody Loves Raymond, CSI wherever, or all the ludicrous reality shows. Are we not the "throw away your television" people. Who is hanging out in those bookstores reading everything other than Ann Coulter books or those put out by conservative publishers? They are, we are, liberals. The difference is that when we see cultural trash we move to something else. I can point out plenty of white suburban Christians here in south metro Denver listening to the hip-hop they consider part of the cultural decay. We don't say people should not broadcast sex and bad comedy, we just don't watch it. I think the problem for most liberals like myself is not that we don't know about the voters that Congressman Carson refers to, we just don't know why they vote the way they do. For me again it comes down to overt religiosity. I can cede that to them. I can cede elections to them if it means that to win we have to become something we are not. If our candidates are overtly religious and have been for years, so be it. I have no problem there. I just do not see how we win by capitulating to it.

Again, liberals and democrats as a generalization vote against our self-interest. Who are all the people openly talking about rejecting materialism out there. Who screams about anti-globalization and anti corporate governance? I am more than aware that many people don't vote for an issue, they vote for an ideal. My problem with this last election is that if it is the ideal that anti-modernity is the way to go they voted the wrong way. It is the combination of that and the specifics of abortion legislation, the Supreme Court, gay marriage, etc. that lead them down the path they chose.

by joeferguson on Fri Nov 12, 2004 at 11:58:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Expressing our values (none / 0)

Great comments Chris.  But, we need to know who our base is.  We are not the "party of science" as Bill Maher and others like him have falsely labeled us as.  There are many "true Christians" that are Democrats.  If we keep it up - they will switch party's.  Don't get me wrong, I love Bill Maher but Bill Maher and those like him have become the poster children for the Democratic Party to a large part of America.  They do not represent the entire base of the Democratic party and their extreme comments like we are the "Party of Science" is their own thoughts that do not represent out party as a whole.

I agree with you completely...We can't talk them into changing their perceptions of us. We must SHOW THEM that our values are good and worth defending. The best way to do that is to stick with them regardless of their political viability. It is when we abandon them in the face of tough times that we most live up to the stereotype of having no real values at all.

 

by elscal on Fri Nov 12, 2004 at 12:30:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

We don't need the reddest of the red states (none / 0)

to win.  So screw them.  My (Republican) history professor asked, "can a president win an election without winning a single state in the south?  Doubtful."  Bullshit.  We came awfully close twice and the Western states are trending Democratic.  We will never convince these people so we ought not try.  

"My question for Brad is what he thinks that these people want after they get bans of abortion and gay marriage."

They want creationism taught in schools.  They want no more public schools. They want homosexuality punishable by death. They want women barefoot and pregnant.  Should I go on?

by cls on Fri Nov 12, 2004 at 03:52:14 AM EST

Re: We don't need the reddest of the red states (1.00 / 3)

"These people" don't live just in the red states, they are found in the suburban and rural counties a couple dozen miles out from your beloved cities. And who wants to live in the city anymore? Certainly nobody who values nature and freedom. Boggles the mind how people who claim to love the environment spend 95% of their time in a concrete ant farm. No wonder the decaying liberal metropoli are being abandoned at a record rate. America grew up in the wide open spaces and that is where the heart and soul of this country will always be.
by merzbow on Fri Nov 12, 2004 at 04:09:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: We don't need the reddest of the red states (none / 0)

Okay... so your point is what?  Your post is entirely nonsensical.  Methinks this thread has struck a nerve...
by cls on Fri Nov 12, 2004 at 04:28:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: We don't need the reddest of the red states (none / 0)

My point is that liberals who want to put their heads in the sand and think they can ignore those who vote 'red' are clueless, since the 'red' is much closer than they think. The cities cannot secede from the suburbs, and one cannot live one's entire life inside city limits (although many certainly try). You HAVE to learn to understand us and get along with us and work with us, period. Plus the cities don't have a chance against us in a civil conflict - seige warfare anyone? :)
by merzbow on Fri Nov 12, 2004 at 04:38:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: We don't need the reddest of the red states (none / 0)

The red is very close. They're family, friends, and co-workers who are actively voting to destroy civil liberties and the environment.

No one, anywhere that I've seen, has suggested succession between the country and cities. You've pointlessly inserted a non-topic to divert from the real message. So drop the stereotyping tactic, it won't play here.

OUR MESSAGE is this. We understand you. And we don't need you. The radical right has ignited a culture war, yes, but it's also a war against personal freedom, freedom of religion, and free speech. You've thrown down the gauntlet and we're accepting the challenge.

by Green Irishboy on Fri Nov 12, 2004 at 07:40:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: We don't need the reddest of the red states (none / 0)

Succession = secession. I don't spell worth a damn in the morning... oh well.
by Green Irishboy on Fri Nov 12, 2004 at 07:42:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: We don't need the reddest of the red states (none / 0)

They're fighting a losing war, and they know it.  The history of moral reformers is one of failure; their biggest 'success' to date was in getting Prohibition enacted, and its results were (1) a move from people drinking relatively weak wine and beer to drinking harder liquors, (2) the rise of organized crime because there was now a black market for a portable and expensive product, and (3) their eventual marginalization when America woke up and decided that they wanted to have a beer if they felt like it.

The red state 'values voters' are doomed to keep being used by the 'money powers' and discarded when they're no longer useful.  Virtue, in this case, will be their only reward.

by beerwulf on Fri Nov 12, 2004 at 09:38:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: We don't need the reddest of the red states (none / 0)

Not really true. In older suburbs voters are trending more and more Democratic. Fairfax County, Virginia, just voted Democrat for the first time since Johnson. Even the outer Chicago suburbs are trending Democrat. It's the outer suburbs that vote more Republican. Like rural areas ex-urbs are populated by those terrified of other human beings in the close-in burbs, rural people who lost their farms to agribusiness expansion, libertarian types who want low taxes, cheap housing and...oh yeah...new roads, sewers, schools, etc.  These areas are growing but they change over to the Democratic side once the new generation settles in.
by elrod on Fri Nov 12, 2004 at 09:29:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: We don't need the reddest of the red states (none / 0)

I love your elitist attitude, merzbow! It's great the way you took an insightful comment regarding how we don't need bigots on our side and warped it into a "country vs. city" debate! How meaningless and base.

Certainly nobody who values nature and freedom. The country conservatives making the headlines are working overtime to destroy ecological protections. And let me ask you, did you live in one of the eleven states that voted to constitutionally restrict freedoms for gays and unmarried couples? Did living in the country cause you to vote for freedom, justice, and civil rights?

by Green Irishboy on Fri Nov 12, 2004 at 07:34:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Urban environmentalism (none / 0)

is alive and thriving.  Personally, as someone who enjoys some good nature, I'd take urban density and a few great public parks over a sea of suburban strip malls and cul-de-sacs any day.  See for example EarthWorks Boston.  Also it's a lot easier to preserve open space when you're not paving it over, and to minimize pollution when you can conviniently get around without a car.

I don't mean to knock suburbanites at all, just to stand up for our cities here.  Oh, and if "the decaying liberal metropoli are being abandoned at a record rate", then why are housing prices in the most urban places (NYC, SF, Boston, etc) so high?  It would appear that there is in fact considerable demand for quality urban areas.

Felicifia: Online utilitarianism community
by Seth Baum on Fri Dec 17, 2004 at 11:03:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The Enemy Within (3.00 / 1)

Carson writes that "[t]he culture war is real, and it is a conflict not merely about some particular policy or legislative item, but about modernity itself."

What he either misses or doesn't mention, and what the Red Culture Voters don't seem to understand, is that modernity, and the disrupting and dehumanizing changes in their lives to which they object are the inevitable products of the consumer culture that is the basis of modern American capitalism.  They may object to or feel threatened by modernity, but that's the way American corporations make money.

People who live in large cities and the industrial cities of the midwest have been dealing with the dehumanizing aspects of consumer capitalism for about a hundred years.  Blue Voters, particularly Blue Voters in large cities, are born into modernity.

Consumer capitalism is, of course, what the Real Republican Party is all about.  Do they feel threatened by a world that says it's okay to get drunk and have sex with twins?  Do they know what political party Mr. Coors belongs to?

So Pace Brad Carson.  The Red Culture Voters of Oklahoma and elsewhere may not be stupid, but they are a little uneducated and maybe a little unwilling to confront reality.  Maybe he should explain it to them.  Somebody should.

by James Earl on Fri Nov 12, 2004 at 03:55:12 AM EST

Re: The Enemy Within (3.00 / 1)

some good points.

Republicans are selling the problem, dehumanizing consumer capitalism, and the faux cure of cultural backlash.

Also, much of the hippies/60s movements (back to the land, small is beautiful, etc) were also an attack on this modernity.  So depending on how you slice it, there is some commonality across the left/right, red/blue divides.

I think many people on the left are really fighting against some of the same things that rural red states are.  Of course, voting republican is counterproductive, as it only further empowers the megacorporations.  Unfortunately, the democrats aren't much better.  The democrats need to get out of bed with big business and return to their populist roots.

I really hope there is a way we can break through some of the illusions and find some common populist ground in the red states.  Some of these issues like abortion make that very difficult.

I thought maybe the democrats could win some of the culture war voters over with issues that attacked the big media megacorporations.  Our culture shouldn't be controlled by a handful wealthy elitists.  The public airwaves have been hijacked by megacorporations and need to be returned to the people.  We need someway to call the Republican bluff and expose them for being on the side of the megacorps which are destroying our culture(s) for profit.

Power to the people, even those in red states.

by RedStateIndie137 on Fri Nov 12, 2004 at 02:04:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Enemy Within (none / 0)

Absolutely. You wrote:

"Republicans are selling the problem, dehumanizing consumer capitalism, and the faux cure of cultural backlash"

they're the ones peddling moral relativism, ignoring the moral effects of their darwinistic "survival of the fittest" economics. The party of the "greed is good" laissez faire economy ought not be allowed to pose as the party where the spiritual is more important than money. But if we Dems don't learn to talk about our moral principles in the language of morality, conservatism will continue to be successful in the red states at calling us the party of moral decay.

Keith

by keith johnson on Sat Nov 13, 2004 at 08:55:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Enemy Within (none / 0)

Consumer capitalism is, of course, what the Real Republican Party is all about.  Do they feel threatened by a world that says it's okay to get drunk and have sex with twins?  Do they know what political party Mr. Coors belongs to?

Mr. Coors didn't win.

Oddly enough, Salazar was able to get to Coors' right on some of the issues. IIRC, Coors is anti-death penalty and favors lowering the drinking age to 18 (both of which I agree with). A beer tycoon will not exactly win the hearts of the religious right.

by wayward on Sun Nov 14, 2004 at 10:42:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Backlash (none / 0)

The rise of the religious right coincides with the fall of post-WWII living standards. Poverty and a sense of helplessness breeds religious fervor. People lose economic control, seek cultural control.

By driving down living standards and inflaming cultural grievances, the RNC gains religious voters and grist for their volunteer army (Can't afford college? Got no future? Join the Army and kill the ragheads that are threatening our way of life!)

by coldeye on Fri Nov 12, 2004 at 03:55:54 AM EST

My God is bigger than their god (3.00 / 1)

Red State culture isn't under attack by modernity. It's under attack by capitalism. You tell me how Republicans are going to fix that problem. I read that Rupert Murdoch owns 1/3 of Hollywood. This is the great papered over Republican divide.

The conservative attack on liberalism is a game of three card monte to hide the real enemy. What the hell is modernity anyway? Computers? The internet? Outsourcing? Stem cell research? The automobile or the telephone for christ's sake? Maybe it's science itself. How long are we supposed to hold back the hands of time for the red state luddites to give the sun permission to rise in the east?

If they want a culture war, by god let's give them a culture war. My God is bigger than their god.

My God tells me that "Saving Private Ryan" is the greatest war tory ever told and is divinely inspired.

My God inspired the Geneva Accords, the Bill of Rights and the Constitution of the United States of America. My God tells me that all people are created equal, including gays.

My God can kick their god's butt. Bring it on baby. If they want a culture war, let's give it to them.

by Gary Boatwright on Fri Nov 12, 2004 at 04:11:25 AM EST

His conclusion... (none / 0)

I understand that Brad Carson was pretty much the a Zell Miller-style "Democrat," whose only virtue was that he had a {D} after his name.  This article does little to change my mind.

An extended exercise in "sour grapes," with it's conclusion especially grating:

"And, while the defeat was all my own, the failure was of the party to which I swear allegiance, which uncritically embraces a modernity that so many others reject."

So, it seems as if Brad thinks that we are at fault for not rejecting "modernity."  Which "modernity" is he speaking of?  Not just gay marriage and abortion, he warns.  But then what?  Uppity women not knowing that their Biblical role is to "submit" to their husbands?  Even-more-uppity "coloreds" not knowing that it is their God-dictated duty to serve Massa?  That pesky thing called "reason," that gets in the way of simply using Leviticus as the law of the land, and the first three chapters of Genesis as its scientific textbook?

There is a case to be made that, in order to win, Democrats must find the way to seriously think about (and, IMHO, make the case for) their values.  But that's a far different matter from just uncritically basing one's politics on what will play at a fundamentalist church in small-town Oklahoma.  But that's probably what you'd have to expect from a Zell Miller-clone with a bad case of sour grapes.

by JDWalley on Fri Nov 12, 2004 at 04:35:53 AM EST

Re: His conclusion... (none / 0)

And Carson is also someone that dkos pushed us to donate towards. Having read this, I'm glad I didn't.
by desmoulins on Fri Nov 12, 2004 at 01:01:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: His conclusion... (none / 0)

Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

Even if Carson is a bit conservative for your taste, he would have been a hell of a lot better than Coburn.

by wayward on Sun Nov 14, 2004 at 11:01:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Get A Load Of This (2.00 / 0)

Talk About "To The Core"

http://www.fuckthesouth.com/

A little excerpt:

" Fuck the South. Fuck 'em. We should have let them go when they wanted to leave. But no, we had to kill half a million people so they'd stay part of our special Union. Fighting for the right to keep slaves - yeah, those are states we want to keep.

And now what do we get? We're the fucking Arrogant Northeast Liberal Elite? How about this for arrogant: the South is the Real America? The Authentic America. Really?

Cause we fucking founded this country, assholes. Those Founding Fathers you keep going on and on about? All that bullshit about what you think they meant by the Second Amendment giving you the right to keep your assault weapons in the glove compartment because you didn't bother to read the first half of the fucking sentence? Who do you think those wig-wearing lacy-shirt sporting revolutionaries were? They were fucking blue-staters, dickhead. Boston? Philadelphia? New York? Hello? Think there might be a reason all the fucking monuments are up here in our backyard?

No, No. Get the fuck out. We're not letting you visit the Liberty Bell and fucking Plymouth Rock anymore until you get over your real American selves and start respecting those other nine amendments. Who do you think those fucking stripes on the flag are for? Nine are for fucking blue states. And it would be 10 if those Vermonters had gotten their fucking Subarus together and broken off from New York a little earlier. Get it? We started this shit, so don't get all uppity about how real you are you Johnny-come-lately "Oooooh I've been a state for almost a hundred years" dickheads. Fuck off. "

by nkp on Fri Nov 12, 2004 at 04:39:48 AM EST

Re: Get A Load Of This (none / 0)

Michael Ventura (see URL below) makes many observations in his column, but his one about BEHAVIOR is important to all Democrats who love God and love our country. It is the best thing I've read about how our BEHAVIOR as Democrats can lead us back to winning the HEARTS and MINDS of folks in the red states. Forget THEORIES, PLATFORMS and all that, it's how we behave toward people that will bring the moderates back to our party.

http://www.austinchronicle.com/issues/dispatch/2004-11-12/cols_ventura.html

by GreyLion on Tue Nov 16, 2004 at 03:23:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Cheer Up! (none / 0)

Remember the other 48% (and the silent majority 55%).

This'll cheer you up, guaranteed!

Sorry Everybody:

http://72.3.131.10/

by nkp on Fri Nov 12, 2004 at 04:55:01 AM EST

New terms you will here more and more of (none / 0)

Reconstructionism: people like Tim Lehaye

and Pat Roberton who believe the church must

clean itself up before the bride groom comes

for its bride...total heresy..a theocracy.

Pharisees:The religious power at the time

of Jesus ..according to Jesus, totally corrupt

and at one point Jesus had to count to 10

to hold back from blowing them to smithereens

(the passage of the lady caught in adultery)

the Pharisees were into controling the temple

and its people ...inflating prices on temple

sacrifices to line their pockets...voyuers...

political powerbrokers in bed with the romans

they wanted the law strictly followed but of

course they could skirt it.

Covenant laws: right wing legislation to

rid the states of no fault divorce.

Abstinence: more and more laws to control the

people and have them abstain by law from

vices defined by others.

Pro life : not only in defeating roe v wade

but to defeat the morning after pill.

New Religious Freedom act: an attempt to

protect right wing culture and its agenda

promoting 10 commandments and other verses

into public places.

Religious faith based programs: instead of

using church tithes and offerings as the bible

teaches these new faith based programs will

use tax dollars..in an attempt to take social

programs away from a secular fair based government

into a religious culture that can and will

discriminate.

others you know about

vouchers... charter schools...

by Aslanspal on Fri Nov 12, 2004 at 05:32:32 AM EST

City don't mean dumb either. (3.00 / 1)

A favorite saying I've heard, "Country don't mean dumb." Even the way it's phrased is an intentional way of saying, "you can't judge me based on my accent or my manner of speech. I am able to reason as well as you."

I don't consider the red/country/conservative voters uneducated, stupid, or poorly trained to make decisions. IN FACT, I emphasize this, intelligence is not the domain of any geographic, racial, class, or culture.

The basic problem as I see it is that Liberals and liberal views are perceived as a source for scorn. More to the point, or as Brad Carson was pointing out, we are perceived to stand for things that are "immoral" by some... which is all just so much bullshit.

What we are really seeing is a culture of hate that has been promoted as a backlash to liberalism. And the problem isn't liberalism or liberal philosphy. IT'S A CON JOB. The Republican party, hi-jacked by Christian extremists, has worked hand-in-hand with select big businesses (Sinclair and Wal-Mart come to mind) and radical evangelicals to promote a smear campaign. This goes way, way back before Karl Rove entered the scene. The reds among us and in our lives are not stupid. They've been conned. Frankly, it's a nasty trick that can be played on just about anyone, again, regardless of any of the factors (race, geography, religion, etc.) being played up.

We don't need to do any more soul-searching. I know it's wrong to deregulate environmental protections; morally wrong. It's morally wrong to force your neighbors to accept your religious views in the form of legislation. It's morally wrong to promote wars just because we can. If there's a culture war, then we confront it with our own organized campaign of telling the truth. That starts by confronting person by person, respectfully and with intelligence, not red state by red state.

And I concede, there are many who will not listen to reason. Those we must abandon.

by Green Irishboy on Fri Nov 12, 2004 at 08:04:23 AM EST

Culture (none / 0)

I can't even begin to deal with a culture or people who claim moral superiority while voting for a President who is committing genocide in Iraq.
by Dorothy Ligon on Fri Nov 12, 2004 at 08:26:20 AM EST

Don't be alarmed (none / 0)

by this event.  Remember we lost this election by 3 or 4 points.  When things truly go to hell which we all know they will, we'll win elecions again.  We didn't lose by 25 points.  We lost by 3-4.  Bush won't be running in 2008.  Some other poor slob will have to run with that record of failure, and we'll be back on top.  Remember 3 or 4 points, and we won't be winning Oklahoma any time soon either.  Who cares?
by fred on Fri Nov 12, 2004 at 08:29:54 AM EST

Re: Don't be alarmed (none / 0)

But on the other hand, his performance in every area has been dreadful, and he has incredibly low approval ratings- perhaps the lowest of any incumbent president who has been "reelected."

Thus, this election should have been ours.

I agree that we should become more like the Right, but I would certainly like to find a way 1. to stop their momentum and 2. to have a base that is as energized as theirs.  Pointing to the margin of our defeat does not seem like the right answer.

by KDMfromPhila on Fri Nov 12, 2004 at 09:06:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't be alarmed (none / 0)

coorection: I mean "We should not become more like the right.."
by KDMfromPhila on Fri Nov 12, 2004 at 01:45:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't be alarmed (none / 0)

correction: I mean "We should not become more like the right.."
by KDMfromPhila on Fri Nov 12, 2004 at 01:46:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

think about the bell curve... (3.00 / 0)

Sure there are a few fanatics out there (in more ways than one) who are brainwashed and are, in fact, essentially cult members.  And for each fanatical cult congregation, there is a pastor who functions as the local cult leader.

I suspect (and fervently hope) that the number of these enclaves is relatively small.  And so we can't and shouldn't expect to reach these few people.  They are lost to us.

What we can and should hope for and do is to reach the 10-15 million people who swung to Bush with whom we can hope and expect to share common values. We can shine a critical light on the religious right fringe who are now overreaching and claiming 'their due.'  We can ask moderate Bush voters (starting with those we know personally) if this is what they signed on for. We can paint a picture of America as the fringe right would like it to be. We can ask moderate Bush voters to imagine their daughters' lives and the lives of their gay friends and family members under the theocratic vision of the fringe. We can accumulate the zealous quotes that people on the fringe are now giving us. We can and must illuminate the stark constrasts between moderates and the fringe. We can ask moderate Bush voters to act as a moderating influence on the Bush administration. We can make a good case for Republicans DEMANDING moderation in cultural and fiscal policies from THEIR Republican representatives.

We must STOP ridiculing and treating Bush voters as some homogenous group.  We all know better, don't we? We better know better. And we better give moderates the benefit of the doubt...  treat them, talk about them as though we know and trust that we share many values and concerns with them.

The religious fringe can, fortunately, be counted on to show its' true colors in the days ahead. We must make common cause with moderates who swung to Bush.

by sarany on Fri Nov 12, 2004 at 08:48:40 AM EST

theocons (none / 0)

Part of the job for the Democratic party is to convince the culturally conservative Red-state voters that the GOP doesn't actually give a rat's ass about the moral issues that are so important to them.  Those voters are just pawns in the scam run by operatives like Karl Rove.  The Republican Party speaks in pious terms about issues like abortion and stem cell research, only to the extent that it expands their big tent of voters and facilitates more tax cuts for the economic elite.  
by global yokel on Fri Nov 12, 2004 at 09:02:31 AM EST

Oklahoma (none / 0)

There are more registered Dems here than Repugs... we have a Dem governor... and while it's true that Carson's campaign was all about denying the charge that he is too "liberal" for this state, this state shouldn't be completely written off.

We just need to convince these people that we DO have morals, and make them step back from their TVs and think a little. Most of the people I know here only vote how their parents/church tells them to - a few stepped back from that cycle, looked around at the parties, and voted Kerry. Not enough, obviously, but if that happened more often, and if the Dem candidates were more appealing to the moral side of things... we could win.

by Tar029 on Fri Nov 12, 2004 at 09:03:44 AM EST

Truly frightening (none / 0)

Over at my blog, IndependentReport, we have some trollers who seem to come from the camp of morals first, liberties second.  They view abortion as a way for women to justify being sexually irresponsible.  I am left gape-mouted every time I read about their thought processes.

Now then.  What can we Dems do about it?  Certainly we can't start playing to their concerns specifically because the Republican marketing machine will catch us and brand us panderers.

I would propose a two-pronged attack.  Have the Democrats begin revealing their concerns for social justice for all--including the unborn--through various marketing endeavors.  but always keep in our hip pocket the anti-American nature of legislating against personal freedoms.

Have an outside group handle the other aspects of the attack.  First, that the staunchest Republican supporters are at the root of some of the most morally vacuous pieces of culture around.  And second, begin slowly framing the idea of removing personal liberties as anti-American, and begin a reverse smear campaign on all those who have so rapidly wrapped themselves in the flag to push their agenda.

by beloit08 on Fri Nov 12, 2004 at 09:12:10 AM EST

Re: Truly frightening (none / 0)

"Have the Democrats begin revealing their concerns for social justice for all--including the unborn--through various marketing endeavors."

Do the Democrats actually value social justice for the unborn?  That's not a troll, I'm a liberal, but we DO support abortion-on-demand in the first couple of trimesters, do we not?  And by doing so, do we not forfeit any "social justice" for the unborn?

by ccarollo on Fri Nov 12, 2004 at 01:40:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Truly frightening (none / 0)

Well said.

Safe, legal, and rare. Very rare.

The Democrats need a plan to make abortion very rare. They also need to articulate that making abortion illegal without giving pregnant women better options, will only lead to illegal abortion.

Most importantly, they need to expose the Republicans as all talk, no action on this issue. How many people know that the abortion rate went down (way down) under Clinton and is back up under Bush? How many of you knew that Bush's judicial appointees in Texas voted to make abortion easier to get? How many of you thought Bush was lying when he said he had no litmus test? Look at his Texas record, he doesn't really bcare one way or the other. He vigorously campaigned for Arlen Specter over a pro-life challenger in the primary. But come election time, no one talks about this. Bush wants the pro-life vote, the Democrats the pro-choice vote. And so the Democrats let him say one thing and do another as much as he wants. We'll never face Bush again, but I'm sure you will find a similar pattern among other Republicans.

After all, why would the Republicans ever want to overturn Roe? It's the best vote getter they have. If they did, then all those Catholic union members would vote Democrat again!

by wayward on Sun Nov 14, 2004 at 11:12:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

There may be a Cultural Values War, but... (3.00 / 2)

...the reason why Democrats have not been winning it is not because they have failed to embrace the values that Average Americans find extremely appealing.  There is a political force that has been driving it.  Both abortion and homosexuality have become political "moral issues" due to the efforts of Republicans who have identified to some degree with Christian traditions.  In their hands, popular Christianity has developed a "moral focus" that selectively ignores the teachings of Jesus that Republicans find...well, a bit unwelcome.  It's time for Democrats to put an end to this.

I would like to suggest that we start attacking Republican Christianity in a way that defines us as morally superior and them as pathetic hypocrites.  After all, Jesus urged his followers to not concern themselves with their wealth ("...sell all you have...") and to be wimps when confronting bullies. Republicans find themselves not wanting to follow such teachings because they sense that obeying them could end up threatening their privileged positions in society. So they've tended to focus their attention (and everyone else's) on moral "issues" that do not threaten their economic fortunes in any way, e.g., the abortion and homosexuality issues.

It's time to put them on the defensive.  The first thing we need to do is accuse them of wrongly suggesting that Jesus would be a Republican if he were a United States citizen today, instead of a Democrat. It is easy to point to specific teachings by Jesus that would clearly define him as a bleeding-heart liberal. Indeed, most Republicans would be quick to describe him as "far to the left" of the majority of Democrats. Did he not teach his followers to give freely of their possessions to others, and to respond to any attack by an enemy from another country with acts of loving kindness? Can there be any doubt that Arnold Schwarzenegger would call him a "Girly Man?"

When they start to defend themselves, Democrats need to point out that it is only logical for us to conclude that Jesus told us which moral issues were the most important to him by the amount of time he spent commenting on them. Which did he emphasize the most? There is little doubt that he thought it was especially important that his followers be willing to deny themselves materially if that was what was required in order to obtain the benefit others. He repeated this theme constantly.

We might then want to point out that neither abortion nor homosexuality were addressed by Jesus. Does this omission necessarily mean that he didn't think either of those practices were wrong? Of course not. But it does strongly suggest that Jesus did not perceive them to be as alarming as other imperfections he saw within human souls, the ones that he commented on most frequently.

If Jesus did think that abortion and homosexuality were more serious "crimes" than failing to love your enemy, then why did he not mention them when he had the chance?

If one examines closely the words that were attributed to Jesus by the authors of the Gospels, there is no evidence that he believed abortion and homosexuality were more offensive than the failure of rich men to deny themselves for the benefit of others. Democrats are clearly justified in believing that they have a stronger claim to a true identification with Jesus than Republicans do.

We need to start publicly pressuring Republican Christians to agree with us that Jesus' specific teachings on moral issues should be taken more seriously than any advice on other moral topics that followers or predecessors might have expressed at other times (like Paul, the Old Testament).

If Democrats start pushing these "talking points" regularly in the mainstream press, we could immediately put Republican Christians on the defensive. Whenever they try to defend themselves from the charge of hypocrisy, all Democrats need to do is ask them why it is that they aren't preaching those teachings of Jesus that condemn Republican policies?  Why is it that they are concerning themselves with the motes they see in the eyes of others when they have beams in their own?

Why does this make sense, politically?  It works in the same way that the Swift Boat Veterans attacks did.  The Republicans took a strength that John Kerry had and tried to tarnish it as best they could.  We need to attack the strengths of the Republican Christians (their claim to moral superiority) and define them as sinners that good people would not want to identify with.

If we do this in good faith, we will be able to bleed away some of the support that Republican Christians have enjoyed.  Devout Christians will be able to see that it is possible for them to be both good Christians and Liberal Democrats at the same time. After all, Jesus was just such a man.

James J. Kroeger

www.taxwisdom.org

by Linette on Fri Nov 12, 2004 at 09:21:53 AM EST

Re: There may be a Cultural Values War, but... (3.00 / 1)

Did someone say Bible?

James 5

Warning to Rich Oppressors

1Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming upon you. 2Your wealth has rotted, and moths have eaten your clothes. 3Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days. 4Look! The wages you failed to pay the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord Almighty. 5You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves in the day of slaughter.[1] 6You have condemned and murdered innocent men, who were not opposing you.

Luke 16

The Rich Man and Lazarus

19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[3] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'
27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

Luke 10: 7  The laborer is worthy of his hire.

1 Timothy 5:18:  For the Scripture says, "You shall not muzzle the ox when it treads out the grain." And, "The laborer is worthy of his wages."

Proverbs 29:7   The righteous care about justice for the poor, but the wicked have no such concern.

Psalm 82:3  3   Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4   Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.

Micah 6:8  
He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

Exodus 23:6  Thou shalt not wrest the judgment of thy poor in his cause.

Exodus 23:10    And six years thou shalt sow thy land, and shalt gather in the fruits thereof:
11   But the seventh year thou shalt let it rest and lie still; that the poor of thy people may eat: and what they leave the beasts of the field shall eat. In like manner thou shalt deal with thy vineyard, and with thy oliveyard.

Leviticus 19: 9   And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not wholly reap the corners of thy field, neither shalt thou gather the gleanings of thy harvest.
10   And thou shalt not glean thy vineyard, neither shalt thou gather every grape of thy vineyard; thou shalt leave them for the poor and stranger: I am the LORD your God.

Isaiah 32:7  The scoundrel's methods are wicked,
he makes up evil schemes
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