The Lie that is the Narrative

So I flipped it to MSNBC at 10:00 because I heard Janeane Garofalo and Sam Seder were going to be on. Once there, I was greeted by a Pat Buchanan voice over that claimed new polls showed Bush with a commanding lead. I instantly turned the channel as my blood pressure went up several notches.

Arrgghhh, I screamed in my head (actually, what I thought was much worse, but I know my parents read MyDD and they are embarrassed when I swear on the computer screens of tens of thousands of readers). How can MSGOP let something so blatantly false on the air? Apart from the state polls, which still show Kerry winning the Electoral College, fifteen polling firms have conducted national polls entirely since the end of the last debate, and thirteen of them show Bush under 50. For an incumbent, that is very dangerous. It struck me as an intentional attempt to depress Democratic turnout on Election Day by lying and/ or fishing for polls that provide a dramatic narrative.

I turned it back to the baseball game and gradually calmed down. I started to wonder if a narrative of Bush being ahead was actually good for Democrats. Many people always say you need to work like you are ten points down, but imagining you are ten points down when you know it isn't true is a lot harder than being told you are ten points down.

Further, I remember how on Election Day in 2000, among everyone I knew only an obsessive poll watcher like myself was predicting a Gore victory (I actually passed out a copy of the most recent poll I could find from every state to both classes I taught that day and to both seminars I was taking that day. I was right about every state except Iowa and Florida--or rather I was only wrong in Iowa. It cheered up quite a few people). However, before they saw all of the polls at once, every single person I talked to bought into the "Bush is going to win" media narrative, no matter who they wanted to win. Democratic turnout was not depressed in any way as a result of that narrative, as it actually slightly exceeded Democratic turnout in 1992. Maybe thinking we are in trouble is good for us.

However, no matter whether or not the "Bush is winning" narrative is good or bad for us, it is blatantly false. On at least an intellectual level, it needs to be thoroughly debunked.

The Incumbent Rule

To understand how perilous Bush's situation is, it is first necessary to understand and accept the Incumbent Rule. I am only posting about the Incumbent Rule again because the of the resistance I have had to it both here and at dkos today. Of course, you do not have to believe me. You can believe Nick Panakagis, the head of the National Council on Public Polls.

How will undecideds vote on election day? Traditionally, there have been two schools of thought about how undecideds in trial heat match-ups will divide up at the ballot box. One is that they will break equally; the other, that they will split in proportion to poll respondents who stated a candidate preference.

But our analysis of 155 polls reveals that, in races that include an incumbent, the traditional answers are wrong. Over 80% of the time, most or all of the undecideds voted for the challenger.(...)

In 41 cases, or 32% of the 127, the incumbent ended with less than his stated poll percentage. This means that about one in four of all 155 polls actually overstated the incumbent's percentage.

Of the 127 challengers who gained more undecideds than did incumbents on election day, 78 gained 10 or more points over their stated poll percentage.

Making allowances for factors stated above, most polls appear to estimate support for the incumbent. All or most undecideds end up with the challenger regardless of the size of the undecideds.

You can also believe pollster Guy Molyneux:
There have been four incumbent presidential elections in the past quarter-century. If we take an average of the final surveys conducted by the three major networks and their partners, we find that in three of these the incumbent fell short of or merely matched his final poll number, while exceeding it only once, and then by just a single point (Ronald Reagan). On average, the incumbent comes in half a point below his final poll result.
Year  Incumbent  Final Poll %  Actual Vote %
1996  Clinton	   51	       49
1992  Bush	   37	       37
1984  Reagan	   58	       59
1980  Carter	   42	       41
The numbers for challengers look quite different. In every case, the challenger(s) -- I include Ross Perot in 1992 and 1996 -- exceed their final poll result by at least 2 points, and the average gain is 4 points. In 1980, Ronald Reagan received 51 percent, fully 6 percentage points above his final poll results.
You can also believe pollster Mark Blumenthal (emphasis in original):
However, the final Gallup projections (sans undecided) show an intriguing pattern: In the presidential elections since 1956 that featured an incumbent, Gallup's final projection of the incumbent's vote exceeded the incumbent's actual vote six of eight times. The only exceptions were Ronald Reagan in 1984 and George H.W. Bush in 1992, and then by only 0.2% and 0.7% respectively. On average, Gallup's projection of the incumbent's vote has averaged 1.3 percentage points greater than the actual result. Obviously, without seeing the raw results we can only speculate, but this pattern suggests that Gallup has allocated too many of the undecided over the years to incumbents. (...)

None of this implies that the current standings will determine the final outcome. Where the race ends up a month from now could obviously be different. However, the incumbent rule tells us that, at any given moment, the President's percentage of the vote relative to 50% is a better indicator of where the race stands than the margin separating Bush and Kerry. It also suggests the appropriate way to read the final polls just before the election (and these are my ranges - others may differ): If the average result of all the final polls (including undecided) puts Bush's percentage at 50% or higher, the President will likely win. If Bush's percentage is 48%-49%, the race is headed for a photo finish. At 47% or lower, the President will likely lose (add 1% to these ranges in any state where Ralph Nader is not on the ballot)

Not good enough for you? Well how about my own research on the subject, which is quite extensive:
My methodology worked as follows:
  • 1. Subtract the final poll result for the incumbent from the actual election result for the incumbent to determine the total number of points the incumbent gained from the final poll until the election. Total all 451 of these results to determine the total number of points all incumbents gained from all final polls until the election.
  • 2. Subtract the final poll result for the challenger from the actual election result for the challenger to determine the total number of points the challenger gained from the final poll until the election. Total all 451 of these results to determine the total number of points all challenges gained from all final polls until the election.
  • 3. Take the total from step #1 and add it to the total from step #2. Divide this total into both the result from step #1 and step #2 to determine the relative gain for the incumbent and the challenger.
The results were as follows:
      
Year	  Polls    Und.    Inc.  Chal. 
President   28	  2.4	 14%	86%
1976-88    155	 11.8	 20%	80%
1994	  101	 11.2	 35%	65%
1998	   76	 10.1	 27%	73%
2000	   31	  8.6	 40%	60%
2002-4	   60	  7.5	 42%	58%
1992-04    283	  8.9	 34%	66%
Total	  451	  9.7	 28%	72%
These numbers refer to how all undecideds broke, rather than the percentage of times that the majority of undecideds broke for either the challenger or the incumbent. That is, of the 4,384 percentage points of undecideds in the 451 polls I analyzed, 3,158, or 72%, went to the challenger. The margin of error on this study is very small.

This is not a random, coincidental phenomenon. It is very real, and there are piles more research where this came from it back it up. Incumbents almost always receive a smaller percentage of the final undecideds than challengers, and incumbent Presidents always receive a smaller percentage of the final undecideds than challengers. The reason the Incumbent Rule is firmer in Presidential Elections is because the basic premise of the Incumbent Rule is magnified in such elections. As Panagakis wrote in his original groundbreaking essay on the subject:

It seems that undecided voters are not literally undecided, not straddling the fence unable to make a choice - the traditional interpretation. An early decision to vote for the incumbent is easier because voters know incumbents best. It helps to think of undecided voters as undecided about the incumbent, as voters who question the incumbent's performance in office. Most or all voters having trouble with this decision appear to end up deciding against the incumbent.

The exceptions we found to the Incumbent Rule help support the theory on why this happens.

Many challengers who did not get a majority of undecideds were recent or current holders of an office equal to the one they were seeking. Voters were equally or more familiar with the challenger's past performance in a similar office, so the challenger assumed incumbent characteristics. Other exceptions include well-known challengers or short-term incumbents.

Some examples of where more undecideds voted for incumbents or split evenly:

Last year in Minnesota, where Hubert Humphrey III challenged Sen. David Durenberger; and in Nebraska, where Bob Kerrey, the former governor, challenged David Karnes, who had been appointed to his Senate seat. In 1986 in Florida, when incumbent Sen. Paula Hawkins faced ex-Gov. Bob Graham. And in Chicago in 1979, where two-year incumbent Mayor Michael Bilandic split undecided voters with challenger Jane Byrne.

These examples and similar ones account for 17 of the 28 exceptions to the Incumbent Rule that we uncovered. In some of the remaining cases, the incumbent simply turned the race around in the final days. A good example of this is the 1982 Missouri Senate race pitting incumbent John Danforth against Harriet Woods. Other exceptions can be explained by sampling error.

In a Presidential Election, voters have had a much longer time to make up their minds about the incumbent, because an incumbent President is the most visible person in the entire nation. In fact, that the Incumbent Rule holds up better in Presidential Elections than in other elections is actually the best possible proof of the Incumbent Rule. The more visible the incumbent, the more undecideds the challenger can be expected to receive. This is true as long as that challenger was never Vice-President, which goes a long toward explaining why Reagan was the best performing incumbent of all-time among the final undecideds.

This is very real folks, and "terrorism" isn't going to just explain it away. 9/11 did not change everything, and one of the things it did not change is the Incumbent Rule. For crying out loud, the constant threat of nuclear war during the Cold War didn't dampen the Incumbent Rule, and our "new environment" won't either. Any analsyis of polls in this election that does not account for the Incumbent Rule is, at best, either misguided or simply wishful thinking on the part of Bush supporters. At worst, it is either ignorant or intentionally misleading.

Where the Race Stands--National Polls

Now with that out of the way, let's go looking at some polls. Here are the most recent polls from the fifteen polling firms that have completed polls that were conducted entirely after last week's debate (source):

	Kerry  Bush
AP	 49	46
Econ	 48	46
TIPP*	 44	44
Pew*	 45	45
Time*	 46	46
Marist*   47	47
NBC	 48	48
Zogby	 45	46
CBS	 46	47
Harris	 46	48
News*	 46	48   
Rass	 47	49
Fox	 42	49
Gallup*   46	50
ABC/WP*   44	51
* = Registered Voters
Now, let's do some averaging:
	       Bush   Kerry
Simple Mean:   47.3   45.9
Median:        47     46
Central Mean:  47.3   46.0
Mode:	      46     46
Every single one of these scenarios shows Kerry has the edge, since undecideds historically break overwhelmingly for the challenger, and especially so in Presidential elections. In Bush's best-case scenario, the simple mean, he would still need 37% of undecideds in order to win the popular vote. That would be a shockingly, if not impossibly, high percentage for an incumbent President. Only Reagan, when he was running against a former Vice-President, has even managed 20% of the final undecideds.

Once again, don't just believe me. Real Clear Politics, which always uses likely voters, Gallup, leaners and Nader where possible, currently puts the race at 48.5% Bush, 45.7% Kerry, 1.5% Nader, and 4.3% undecided / other. In this scenario, even with Nader somehow holding on for 1.5%, Bush still requires 17.8% of undecideds in order to win the nationally popular vote. Thus, with two-way RV match-ups without leaners, I have the national polls slightly lean Kerry, and they have the national polls on an absolute knife's edge. With "fishing" on both sides, you are free to choose which scenrio you feel is the most accurate.

Where the race stands--state polls

Once again, using Real Clear Politics, which always uses LV's and leaners, here are how the final results would look if the election were tomorrow and 80% of the final undecideds went to Kerry (80% is really the minimum):

     Bush   Kerry
AZ   52.1   47.9
AR   49.3   48.7
CO   50.5   46.8
FL   49.0   50.0
IA   49.5   49.2
ME   43.5   52.5
MI   47.0   52.0
MN   45.7   52.3
MO   51.1   48.9
NV   52.9   47.1
NH   47.1   51.9
NJ   44.2   54.3
NM   48.6   50.4
NC   51.4   48.6
OH   48.1   51.9
OR   46.0   52.5
PA   47.0   53.0
VA   50.8   49.2
WA   45.2   54.8
WV   50.0   49.0
WI   48.3   49.7
Kerry leads in this scenario 304-234, taking FL, NH and OH from Bush, but losing IA.. Remember, this is with poll fishing for Bush, a conservative estimate of the Incumbent Rule, and the assumption that Nader actually receives what he polls.

*****

There is simply no way that Bush is winning right now. In my national polls, Kerry is slightly ahead. In RCP's national polls, it's tied. In RCP's state polls, Kerry is slightly ahead. Poll after poll shows Kerry leading in the battleground. For now at least, I don't care whether the "Bush is winning" narrative helps us or hurts us. It is just fucking wrong, and considering that we were recently led into a war over lies--a war that cost tens of thousands of lives and has all but destroyed our reputation throughout the world--I can no longer tolerate lies concerning something of this importance.

Tell your friends, or don't, depending on what you feel motivates them more.


Display:


Several reasons to be angry at this junk. (none / 0)

I can think of a number of reasons to be angry about these polls, and two good reasons. First, the good: polls like this probably motivate some Democrats more, so people don't think their efforts are unnecessary (flip side: being down 8-10 may convince some people their efforts are futile, and that's also bad); the other silver lining of these polls is that it may lull Bush & Co. into complacency, and Rove might do something else as dumb as going to California during the last weekend.

But there's a lot not to like:

  1. They're just f**ing wrong.
  2. They make people think that we're doing worse than we are. This has a couple effects: people are pessimistic and that's what they spread to their friends; it also pushes any bandwagon voters into the Bush camp.
  3. They feed the "Bush is gonna win" perception. Bush is already favored on the "is he presidential?" issue by virtue of being, well, the president (regardless of what you think of his actual performance), and given the unduly high self-esteem in which Bush and his supporters hold him, it's just obnoxious for him to claim he's actually popular enough to win - not when he's only speaking to supporters, requiring loyalty oaths, barring t-shirts, and benefiting from widespread misunderstanding of his policies. And when there are numbers that purport to back him up, it's harder to tell people, "it's an even race" or "Bush is gonna lose." It hinders our momentum, and with the expectation of a tight race, we should gather all the momentum we can.
  4. It gives the press one more excuse to talk bad about Democrats. "Bush is popular" says pundit #1. "Bush is doing well" says pundit #2. "I don't know anyone who's voting for a Democrat" says pundit #3.
  5. MOST IMPORANTLY: It makes it easier for Bush to get reelected without, actually, getting elected *AGAIN - if Bush is in a tight race, let's say down 48-47, and somehow wins with FL, OH, and a few more states with touch-screen machines and voter intimidation, it'll be easier for him to claim that he really won, and blame the media for inaccurate polls. And the media might well go along with it, in a way that they wouldn't if he'd lost 54-42.

by Chris on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 01:33:11 AM EST

The narrative is working (none / 0)

When I went to the Philadelphia Eagles game the other day, I was tailgating with a bunch of old friends, most of whom are Democrats, but not blog readers. They have bought in to the "bush is gonna win" perception. I tried my best to explain that it ain't necessarily so, but I'm not sure I convinced anyone. Why listen to me, when the mass media is telling them otherwise?

The good thing is: all these guys are still voting anyway. The anti-Bush sentiment is so strong that everyone wants that cathartic feeling that will come from voting against him.

But just in case, I emphasized that even though Kerry will prob win New Jersey (where we all live) the race is tight and every vote counts.

by claw on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 12:42:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You'd think (none / 0)

That at some point, journalists would take a poll reading 101 course and learn how to interpret them.  Until then, keep fighting the good fight, Chris!
by PonyFan on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 02:44:49 AM EST

The narrative matters a great deal (none / 0)

I remember when Florida 2000 was first called early on for Gore and later of course it was called for Bush, this was disucssed with a great deal of emotion by many GOP callers-in to C-SPAN, including some from the Florida pan-handle who said that although they were dedicated Bush supporters they did not bother to go and vote anyway, even though they had an extended time period to do so before the polls closed in their region.

They said they did not vote and said they were discouraged because of the projected result. A few in this class of voters enjoined a law suit over the issue. Whom they sued does not matter the point is they (very dedicated Bush supporters) were discouraged over an early projection and did not vote.

This is one of the most extreme cases of the discouragement effect, but in this particular case  - 2004 - it will be even more important that people do not become discouraged this time around, since if the election is close in a state like Florida, Pennsylvania, Ohio, possibly others, then contested and provisional ballots will keep the results uncertain for some time (days, weeks, ...) and an army of lawers will be on had on both sides.

That is just one of the more extreme examples, but all you have to do is read the daily blogs to see how easily many people become discouraged over trivia.

For example, while I don't see how anyone, including even someone who is still undecided at this late point in time would have their vote swayed by the trumped up Mary Cheney remark...

[I just don't see how any significant number of people could make their final decision on that trival issue or event when there are so many important issues to consider in this election.]

... all you have to do is take a look at the blog comments from a few days ago to see that some very dedicated democrats were near total dispair over the election because of that remark and how it played in the spin cycle.

There is no doublt that some people react emotionally, and their judgement about whether to vote or not, or who to vote for, or why to vote or not vote for some candidate, can be easily swayed by trivia like the Mary Cheney remark or like the daily propaganda blast by CNN and MSNBC and FOX who do distort the polling data for their purposes, and who do use the trivial to build their mole-hill while the mountain of important stuff is deliberately neglected to keep people ignorant.

The media always manages to convince people one moment that the election is too close to call and the next moment that the their favored candidate Bush is pulling ahead and will be the inevitable winner, a theme (narrative) they all used in 2000, regarless of what the polls were saying at any point in time.

Chris, your doing great work, but my take on your most recent presentation is that if the polls can be believed at all, it really is going to be too close to call, and therefore, we need to be aware of and must adequately respond to every technique, every trick, every lie and every distorition that they put forward, including the management of the daily campaign narrative.

You seem to be putting your faith in the numbers and the trends you can isolate at this point. But its sort of like the stock market, you can not fully predict the stock market's future from its past and existing data no matter how well you may come to know and interpret that data, because new events and the unforseen can and does and always will affect future movment.

In this case, we have a daunting task, we are fighting the media and Bush GOP Inc.

It concerns me a great deal whem I see as I have seen over the past few days some of the obvious euphoia people have reflected from time to time over the favorable polling data.

I feel like I am watching sleep walkers attending a party in their dreams.

People need to get it into their heads that this is one of the most instransigent, dangerous and not to be underestimated adversary any and all of us in the big D - democratic community have ever faced.

My conclusion is that unless our campaigns pro-actively manages the public narrative of the events of their campaign, then we are leaving the public estimation or public determination of the effects of all of our efforts to our adversaries.

Espeically in the minds of the majority of the public who for the most part are focussed on their own lives and circumstances.

Their (re)actions will be determined by the ready made pre-digested conclusions handed to them in the narrative as it is presented to them by our adversaries, if we do not make the effort to control how poeple understand and interpret the ongoing events of the campaign. The media is too lazy, too afraid of standing up to incumbant Bush
to do their own work, when they have to do that they will just put forward some irrelvant trivia.

And specifically we can't sit on our offices and crank out numbers and charts and complex statistical logic, and expect the average guy at large to get it becasue its all there in the numbers and therefore just say and insist it will unfold as it is predetermined by the numbers.

Some of the people (undecideds) who will help determine the results of this election at this late date are now watching Fox TV, CNN, MSNBC and think they are getting the best coverage that anyone can possibly put together for them.  

The related point I would make is that there is intense interest in polling results, and very few people go thru the internals.

Another fact, people, everyone, and I mean everyone tends to underguird their argument and ultimate points with one or another set of polling data.

I watched a "theatrical converstion" (nearly a debate) recently presented on C-SPAN involving former VP Al Gore and former Senator Bob Dole, moderated by David Gergen, which took plce in a auditorium in Texas, I believe at Southern Babtist University.

Commenting about the effect of polls on democracy, Al Gore said he believed that polls were corrosive of the process of democracy. Yet, later during other remarks during the discussion he said and then checked himself for using polling data to underly a point of argumentation he was advancing.

So if a totally well read, well informed, fully intellectually capable fully involved individual like Al Gore can, at times presume and use polling data to advance his arguements and presumably to reason thru them for his own understanding and acceptance, how much more likely is it that the average guy is going to use polling data of good or poor quality to undergird his reasoning?

Knowing the inaccuracy of polls and how they can be so distorted and mis-represented that out to concern you that we have come to rely on and use sp much questionable polling data on all sorts of issues that we have to make our minds up about.

by leschwartz on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 02:48:55 AM EST

exactly parallel (none / 0)

because early and absentee voting
has begun across the country, it is
exactly the same situation now as
the case of the Central Time Zone
Florida voters who felt cheated by
the networks' premature call giving
the state to Gore before the polls
had closed in their counties.

except that now it is the entire country
being cheated by poll results being
simple-mindedly, or manipulatively,
descibed as showing Bush winning.

again the networks are blowing it,
and they apparently don't have a clue.
or do they? it's making me paranoid.

by Woody on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 04:14:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Pat is a #$%#!#$ whore.... (none / 0)

What is really frustrating is that he cashed in the cred he got from criticizing the administration on their neoconservative agenda, which assumably helped him land the job at MSGOP, and then he promptly leaves that part of his personality off the air in order to shill for the administration like a $2 hooker. My head is ready to explode, too...

Oh well, we can console ourselves with Triumph the Comic Insult Dog taking it out on a couple well-known shills in "spin-alley" (rib-hurting-funny video)...

Political Physics
by cgilbert01 on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 03:22:30 AM EST

grrr (none / 0)

it is amazing to hear everyone i know who doesn't go blogging to assume Kerry is going to lose..

when i say .. no he is winning  they literally don't believe me...

it is so frustrating.. they go what about CNN poll? Bush has big lead..

by smartone on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 03:47:37 AM EST

Buchanan & The Narrative (none / 0)

Buchanan had to come home to the Republican fold for the election.  Buchanan no longer has a political career, he is a professional television pundit.  He is only going to get work as a Republican television pundit.  He has to maintain his standing with Republicans.

The Narrative is very harmful.  Something no one talks about:  How many Gore voters stayed home in 2000 because the corporate press/media spent the last two weeks predicting a Bush victory by large margins?  

Although they paused from time to time to have a laugh at another "Gore is a liar" fabrication, during the last two weeks of the 2000 campaign, the whole narrative was "the aura of inevitability."  We were told who Bush's cabinet officers were going to be.  They were universally praised as "the adults" in the corporate press/media.  

The airwaves were also filled with supposed liberals and Democrats who were only too happy to come on the air and get in a slam at Gore.  And, too, there were quite a few people, notably Bill Maher, flogging for Ralph Nader.  Nightline gave him a whole show to trash Gore.  (Happily, this campaign has seen almost none of these Left-Dissenters attacking the Kerry/Edwards campaign.)
The message was driven home in 2000 that Bush was going to win.  

This year, The Narrative of Bush's assured win is being floated by nearly every cable and broadcast news show.  But it isn't really taking hold like the "aura of inevitability" did.

We need to replace that narrative with one of our own, and we need to get it going right now.

We will not succeed by telling all of the weak and wavering Democratic voters that Bush is winning.  They will just stay home.

by James Earl on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 04:32:42 AM EST

Re: Buchanan & The Narrative (none / 0)

(Happily, this campaign has seen almost none of these Left-Dissenters attacking the Kerry/Edwards campaign.)

ABB Baby, ABB.

by yitbos96bb on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 09:28:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Say it Pat: "President-Elect Kerry" (none / 0)

i also saw the beginning of this segment - might have watched it a bit longer than you, but changed it soon thereafter. and was seriously pissed.

but i also had the same thought. maybe i should thank buchanan, while pointing out that he's a lying sack.  (i just imagine him in two weeks explaining how he was so frickin wrong after president kerry has "won going away" - as he tried to say w did right after the second debate. what a joke.)

my very subjective sense is that the best perception is that it is very close. i think that if organizers feel like they're losing by too much, they may be less motivated and have a less enthusiastic energy, and voters might be more likely to stay home on election day. but if people feel like they're winning, they might feel like their effort or vote isn't needed. if you feel it is close, then you feel enthusiastic that you might win, and at the same time motivated that your efforts are needed and can make a difference.

and overall, there is so much noise in the polling data coming out now that, while there is a general perception in the population that bush is more likely to win which we do need to try to erode, there is also a strong narrative that it is actually very close and could go either way, and i don't think cases like this will make much difference.   and only one poll matters.

msnbc has olbermann, who probably does as honest and sophisticated an analysis of polls as anyone on cable news, but it also has this crap.  whatever.

by scottmaui on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 04:55:08 AM EST

Polls, Schmolls! (none / 0)

Why is there no blogging on polls as a pastime rather than a reality.  Consider some of these facts.
  1.  As far as I know, none of the samples used by any national polls include new voter registrations.
  2.  Ditto for the millions who use cell phones exclusively and have no land lines.
  3.  National polls reflect voters in all states, which means that Bush improvements in Red States swell that national total and ignore battleground states.
  4.  Conservative talk tv show and radio hosts( the bulk of what you can see and hear!) use polls like Real Politic which cherry picks the most favorable Bush polls and calls them an average.  When you read the testimonials to Real Politic from Fred Barnes and Co., you want to throw up.

Take heart...a predicted voter turnout of over 120 million is great news, so let's get our asses in gear and insure just that...and we'll have a slam dunk, regardless of the poll game.  
I'll be in Scranton, PA trying to help bring these new guys to the polls....

by hambro on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 06:04:01 AM EST

CW (none / 0)

I think all the CW that talking about how bush is ahead helps bush is bs.  That leads too two things, repugs getting lazy and staying home and reving up dems.  That is what happened in 2000.  Also last night with luntz, and the night before he tried to tell Buch man that bush was in very deep trouble in OH but no one listen.

I think Luntz is sure Kerry is going to win OH and NH and that would but kerry at 284 EV and bush is going to have to fine 15 EV to steal from Kerry which i think very unlikely.

One last thing, four non-tracking polls came out on Thursday, the AP, yougov, pew, and marist college and kerry was up 3%, 2, and tied in the last two.  You decide what that means.

david

by giusd on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 07:40:23 AM EST

Re: CW (none / 0)

Also, Marist had Kerry far ahead in battleground states.
by mmurphy on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 09:15:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

2004 (5.00 / 0)

     Bush   Kerry
IA   49.5   49.2
Heh, you are going to be wrong on Iowa again, lol. Looking at the polls for Iowa does show Bush having a likely victory, even Chuck Todd thinks Bush will win the state (he also thinks --so do I-- that Badnarik will outpoll Nader-a dirty little secret that honest conservative political junkies know but keep to themselves, and very far from ever reaching the mass media).

From what I've read though, the Vilsiak machine in Iowa is the best in the nation, we've had primary's there with every Dem counted and accounted for, and working the state now 4 years straight. The early voters for Dems are going to have in excess of a 50K (could be as high as 80K I've read) lead heading into election day. It would take a massive slew of Republican voters to overcome what the Dems are building in Iowa.

The states I got wrong in 2000 were New Hampshire and Tennessee. I think either we'll see ACT work in the cities of Florida and Ohio, or we won't, and for those two states (ACT has help from SEIU in FL), that's what will determine the outcome. I agree with Chris, that Ohio looks better, notice now that Bush is spending more time in PA than OH, they are freaking out about the city turnout for Dems in Ohio.

New Hampshire appears a done deal, though I watched the debate last night, and wasn't that impressed with Lynch, even though, going by the incumbent rule, there's no way that he can lose!

Two other states, NV & WV, I'm not yet convinced either way. But if Kerry wins Ohio, and holds onto Wisconsin & Pennsylvania, it's over anyway.

by Jerome Armstrong on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 08:11:12 AM EST

Re: 2004 (none / 0)

I think either we'll see ACT work in the cities of Florida and Ohio, or we won't

I'm going to hold you to this prediction, Jerome!

by deminva on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 09:29:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2004 (none / 0)

yep, its all on ACT's shoulders.
by Jerome Armstrong on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 12:36:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

not clear (none / 0)

Every election is different,
and this one has many special features,
given how polarized the public is.
So while undecideds might break for Kerry,
one cannot count on it.  Note that when
some polling companies press the undecideds to
express a preference (they include ``leaners'')
Kerry doesn't always gain.
by strings on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 09:01:09 AM EST

Wow (none / 0)

You have done an amazing amount of research.  I hope you go for the PH D and use this in a dissertation.  I am not sure whether to be amazed or disgusted that someone spent that much time researching this.  I think I choose amazed.  Good Post; rally the troops.
by yitbos96bb on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 09:22:37 AM EST

Another problem with the Narrative. (none / 0)

One last thing (for now) that bad polls do: they encourage the media to ask everyone's two least favorite questions, "So, why aren't you doing better?" and "What's wrong with your campaign?"

If challenger Candidate A is deadlocked with entrenched incumbent Candidate B, who can't break 47% reliably and there's expected to be huge turnout, the press will fixate on Candidate A's inability to "close the deal" or "connect with swing voters" or "beat such a weak candidate", and they'll start making up reasons, and referring to spin - because after all, if Candidate A can't do better, he must be pretty weak, right? Facts and stories that fit the "desperation" meme are shoehorned into the news; facts and stories that don't fit that meme are downplayed (e.g., "Kerry is speaking to big crowds, but even with that, he can't do better in the polls. Looks like he's gonna need to do something else... Kerry says X, that must be a political move to make up a deficit we think exists.")

by Chris on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 09:42:03 AM EST

Bush is ahead if you go only by the polls (5.00 / 0)

I agree.  This is a state by state battle and Kerry is looking good to take PA for sure and OH is leaning. Fl is leaning. Plus he won't loose all the upper mid-west states.  It very well could be an EV landslide-even if the popular vote remains close.

But Bush is ahead in a majority of the national polls-tracking or otherwise.  To say he is not is folly.  

And the polls are disheartening day after day.  Even Zogby has Kerry down by 2 points today.  I wish Kerry would just move ahead for a sustained period of days.  I have wonderd why the DEM strategists don't argue about the validity of the polls and the state races on cable.  It obviously isn't the talking point of the day.

The tv folk want a horserace-it helps their ratings; the national polls are close so they aren't misrepresenting the facts.

Also they can't report the incumbant rule as fact-its too squishy.  The undecideds may break for Kerry but they may not.  The turnout may be huge but it may not.  Bush's approval ratings and poll numbers staying at under 50 percent may indicate a major problem for reelection but it may not.  These are assumptions but not fact.  Look at the red socks coming back after 3 games down--its never been done.  The statistical odds were definatley against them but it doesn't determine outcome and it is not fact.

While I agree that the news reports a Bush advantage that does not exist; until Kerry can demonstrate strength in more polls nationally or statewide he is going to remain the underdog.

I think that this will change over time as alternative methods of information like mydd becomes the preferred method of election watching.  I don't get my election news from tv anymore, its too filtered.  On the net I can get the facts and make up my own mind.  I watch the cable to hear the talking heads and sometimes get an insight into the campaign or inside the beltway strategy.

Poll analysis alone however will not win an election.  We can sit here and figure out statistical reasons why people will vote for Kerry on Nov. 2 but aren't telling pollsters that today.  I love the analysis.

The only thing however that gets us a win is GOTV.

This year take the anybody but bush passion, resentment regarding the 2000 vote and top it off with Iraq and you have a recipe for huge turnout.

Charlie Cook doen't think so-he says the Dems won't turn out just like we didn't get voters to the polls for DEAN.  He says the passion is perceived but not real.  He is dead wrong.  The Dean support was broad but shallow.  I personally could not effect the vote (turnout) in Iowa or NH.  But on Nov 2 I can do a lot, everyone can.  I am going to FL but there are halls here in MD that are phone banking FL on election day.  

Everyone should contact ACT and volunteer.  They are putting together a national GOTV effort the likes this country has never seen before.  The DEMs have their act together in a way I have never seen before top to bottom.  But getting peolple to the polls is the end game-nothing else matters.

by mom in baltimore on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 09:43:56 AM EST

Below is great polling site, very scientific (none / 0)

http://synapse.princeton.edu/~sam/pollcalc.html

He takes a much more scientific approach to the polls, rather than just adding them together and getting an average or median. He only looks at state polls his focus is EC, natinal vote is irrelevant as we found out in 2K.   many sites just take the latest poll or average of last polls.

as of today he has it as (note he has calcs for both only decideds and also incl. undecideds)

Predicted median with undecideds: Kerry 307 EV, Bush 231 EV, K prob. 95%

Median outcome, decided voters only: Kerry 264 EV, Bush 274 EV

95% confidence interval, decided voters only: +/-37 EV for each candidate (Kerry >=270EV: 39%, n.s.)

Popular Meta-Margin among decided voters (explanation): Bush leads Kerry by 0.3%

The short version is that he has calculated the probability of every outcome, and from this calculated summary statistics.

The first step is to calculate the probability of winning a state, taking into account the variability of polls. This is done by calculating simple statistics on the polls: average and standard error of the mean (SEM). This is then converted to a probability of a win using the normal distribution (bell-shaped curve).

The second step of the calculation is complex: it calculates the probability of every possible outcome. For 17 states the total number of possibilities is 2^17 = 131,072. Adding Colorado, Tennessee, North Carolina and Virginia makes over 2 million possibilities. In order to reduce computing time, probabilities less than 0.1% or greater than 99.9% are classified as certain outcomes. Each possibility corresponds to a different number of electoral votes (EV).

Those are then tabulated to come up with a 50th-percentile (expected) outcome, as well as a 95-percent confidence interval. The 95-percent confidence interval is particularly useful because, like the famous Margin of Error (MoE), it gives the range of outcomes that would occur 95 percent of the time based on the available information. Note that this confidence interval is very similar to the 50th-percentile outcome from a 1-point bias towards Bush or towards Kerry.

by ramdan on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 09:57:09 AM EST

DO NOT look at polls only EC counts (none / 0)

As I noted above looking at national polls is waste of time (except in deteremining impact of them on turnout).  The ONLY thing that matters is the Electoral College number.  As we found out in 2000, it does matter how many votes you get nationally what counts is the EC votes.  Even if Bush or Kerry is ahead nationally or even in swing states, what matters is the EC which usually is in line with above but not necessarily so.  As a result look the sites that analyze EC counts.  But be careful.  Several popular sites are very simplistic, just take latest poll or average of latest poll and use that.  For example http://www.electoral-vote.com/ is an excellant site but the anlaysis is just to basic.  Pick sites that do a much more statistically rigourus analysis like http://synapse.princeton.edu/~sam/pollcalc.html i mentioned above.  As you will see, Bush is just barely ahead (0.3%) not taking into account undecidedes, if we do, Kerry wins big
by ramdan on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 10:09:22 AM EST

OT: This is heart Warming... (none / 0)

Since the comments seem to be breaking 60-40 on the depressing side, I hope this will cheer some of you up.

Hopefully, this guy is successful in getting the court order blocking the viewing.  He should have filed sooner though, but it is amazing what can get done when the political pressure is behind something.  Serves those Sinclair bastards right.  

Sinclair Sued by Filmmaker Over Kerry Photos

Thu Oct 21, 7:22 PM ET   Politics - Reuters

By Gail Appleson

NEW YORK (Reuters) - The director of a documentary about John Kerry (news - web sites)'s Vietnam service sued Sinclair Broadcast Group on Thursday, accusing it of illegally copying his photographs in a controversial anti-Kerry movie it plans to air portions of this week.

George Butler filed the copyright infringement suit one day before Sinclair, one of the largest U.S. television broadcasting companies, plans to broadcast part of "Stolen Honor: Wounds that Never Heal" in a one-hour television program discussing allegations about the Democratic presidential candidate's anti-Vietnam War activities in the 1970s.

Published reports said Baltimore-based Sinclair backed off its original plan to air the entire movie less than two weeks before the Nov. 2 presidential election because of mounting political, legal and financial pressures, but the company denied in a news release it ever announced it would show the full film on television.

Democrats have charged the documentary was a blatant political statement disguised as news and demanded equal air time from Sinclair, whose executives have been major contributors to President Bush (news - web sites) and Republicans in recent years.

The movie was still being offered for sale through a Web site called www.stolenhonor.com, the lawsuit said.

A spokeswoman for Sinclair could not be reached for comment.

The suit, filed in Manhattan federal court, seeks unspecified damages and an order barring Sinclair and film distributors from selling or showing the movie containing copyrighted photographs and film footage.

Butler directed the documentary "Going Upriver: the Long War of John Kerry," which chronicles the circumstances leading to Kerry's Vietnam service, and his protest against the war after he returned home, having received the Silver Star and three Purple Hearts.

Butler and Swift Boat Film, which he manages, charge Sinclair wrongfully copied photographs used in "Going Upriver." The suit also accuses Sinclair of using film footage that had been licensed to Swift Boat by Winter Film, which made the 1971 documentary "Winter Soldier."

Lawrence Fabian, a lawyer representing Butler, Swift Boat Film and Winter Film, told Reuters he had heard from defense lawyers the one-hour news program, "A POW Story: Politics, Pressure and the Media" to be aired on Friday would not contain any of the copyrighted works.

by yitbos96bb on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 10:18:05 AM EST

those crafty liberals (none / 0)

So -- Pat Buchanan (who, recall, took most of the vote in certain liberal Florida precincts in 2000) says Bush has a commanding lead, when in fact the polls are mixed.  Ahhh -- that's just his strategy to motivate the liberal base!!  The hares (Bush voters) will stay home, figuring that Pat has told them the election's in the bag, and the tortoises (Kerry voters) will be out in force.

Actually, the issue here is between the bandwagon, everybody likes a winner effect, which will influence some to vote for the side that's winning, and the "my vote doesn't count" effect, which may induce voters on both sides to stay home, figuring it's a done deal.

On balance, I think the Bush-is-5-points ahead meme benefits Kerry.  Everybody who's paying attention is mad as hell and will vote.  For Kerry.  If the Bush strategy persuades some vapid swing voters to stay home watching "Survivor," that's a good thing.

by drlimerick on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 10:20:43 AM EST

Re: those crafty liberals (none / 0)

Survivor is on Thursday.  The election is on Tuesday ;-)
by yitbos96bb on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 12:47:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Everyone Breathe! (none / 0)

It seems like the closer we get to Election Day, the more people forget what "leads" in polls mean. Remember margin of error? A five point lead -- even if it were somehow true -- is essentially a tie folks. Margin of error applies to all numbers in a poll, Kerry's and Bush's, so when you're talking the difference between the two you have to double the MoE.

That's the story we should be telling. Anyone who thinks a five point lead is "commanding" needs to be bitch-slapped.

I don't take this "incumbent rule" stuff all that seriously. I think it applies to the last 2-3 percent, but not much more than that. What encourages me is the fact that Kerry is in much better shape (poll-wise) than Gore was in 2000. The last few voters to decide whether and how to vote are all Dem leaning. That's just a fact of American politics these days, confirmed by the polls. In 2000 they voted. In 2002 they stayed home. This year they will vote.

by AS on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 11:24:54 AM EST

You are right about the incumbent rule (none / 0)

It applies to the LAST POLL ONLY.  That is, the poll taken on November First-if it still shows 7 points undecided, 6 will go to Kerry.  But, more likely, it will show 3 points undecided, with about 2.5 going to Kerry.

by Geotpf on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 12:18:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Polls (none / 0)

All will be reveled on Nov. 2, spake the gadfly Libertarian. And do encourage your disgruntled GOP friends to vote for Badnarik!

I predict Kerry wins, but just barely.

by Mark Fulwiler on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 01:28:05 PM EST

FL and OH make the difference (none / 0)

At this point, it's looking like two states, Florida and Ohio, will be the deciding factors in the presidential election. If you exclude those two, I believe the totals would be: Kerry 264, Bush 227. I think Kerry will win Iowa, and, even as a Pennsylvania republican, I must admit that it's looking pretty good for Kerry in PA, as Bush seems to be running into a 48% ceiling, which will not be good enough to carry the state. For anyone outside of PA who's curious, Nader is not on our ballot, though I doubt he would make enough of an impact to swing the state anyway. So, what it comes down to for Bush is that he must win Florida AND Ohio, which would give him a 274-264 edge and earn him re-election. Kerry, on the other hand, needs to pick off just one of those two to derail Bush.

So, let's look at those two states, starting with Florida. It's anybody's guess as to what will happen there. Last time, it was such a mess, led to all kinds of headaches, and in the end was decided by a mere 537 votes. Encouragingly, Bush has for the most part been polling ahead of Kerry lately. The margin varies somewhat, but when you factor in the remaining undecideds, even accounting for the Incumbent factor, I think it is still just far too close to call. Voter mobilization will be an important factor. I think Bush would be awfully disappointed to lose his brother's state. Somehow, my gut is telling me that it will once again be a close Bush win in the Sunshine State. It's far from certain, but without Florida, Bush does not win re-election period.

That leaves us with Ohio, which could ultimately be the most important state this year. I would not be surprised to see both men and their proxies spend a lot of time there. While the polls do not all agree, in most of them, Bush is at or close enough to 50% to make you think he has a chance to win. It's very much of a toss-up, and I certainly wouldn't wanna bet on it right now.

You are right that this is a very close election, and if news organizations are running stories about Bush running away with it right now, they are inaccurate. Make no mistake about it. I'm speaking as a Bush supporter, but I want the facts, and I'm more likely to find them by searching the internet and using my own judgment as to what to believe than by watching sensationalized news coverage. I rarely watch any TV at all, so I don't really know what they're saying, but what the voters say on Nov. 2 is what matters.

You are correct in your statement that Kerry has the advantage right now simply because Bush MUST win those two states. The question is: will he? The answer to that question will decide who our next president is.

by Brent Wingard on Mon Oct 25, 2004 at 03:28:41 PM EST

Re: FL and OH make the difference (none / 0)

BTW, a Kerry victory is not the worst thing that could happen. In fact, I and some other conservatives I know are leaning away from Bush as a result of his failure to uphold conservative principles of government as well as his failed economic, environmental and foreign policies. I have noticed that the energy in this electoral process seems to be on the Democratic side. A number of prominent national conservatives, too, are disenchanted with Bush and disinclined to support him. I would not at all be surprised to see Kerry win the election.
by Brent Wingard on Mon Oct 25, 2004 at 10:25:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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