Gone Fishing

Every time I get optimistic I see a Fox News Poll, or ABC Poll going backwards for Kerry.  I see the optimistic posting on SSP and Daily Kos and here and start to believe that Bush is a goner...then I look at Real C(onservative) Politics and see that they can find polls and info that puts W in the Driver's Seat. -flatbalde in the comments

Do I fish for polls? Sometimes I catch myself doing it, or at least wanting to do it, so I probably do fish sometimes. Does Real Clear Politics fish for polls? It sure seems like it. They include partisan polls such as the recent Rocky Mountain News / Opinion Strategies in their battleground state average of Colorado, but leave out the last three non-partisan Zogby reports in every single state. They always use LV's, and frequently use three-way polls even when Nader isn't on the ballot in a state. They consider New Jersey a battleground state, but do not consider Arkansas or Virginia battlegrounds.

I am sure they have justifications for all of this, as I have justifications for what I do. This post is not about bashing Real Clear Politics, which often annoys the hell out of me but which I would take over CNN any day of the week when it comes to election analysis. This post is also not about re-opening debates over LV's vs. RV's, two-way vs. three-way, and telephone vs. Internet polls. What this post is about is demonstrating that even Real Clear Politics currently shows Kerry beating Bush in the Electoral College. Of course, not only won't they tell you that, they seem unwilling to tell themselves that either.

I have written fairly often about the Incumbent Rule, which will begin to take effect in a little over one week. The basic tenant of the incumbent rule, that incumbents below fifty are in trouble because undecideds break toward the challenger, is well known. There are, however, less well known aspects of the Incumbent Rule. One of these is that in Presidential races, the Incumbent Rule is actually even more of a "rule" than usual. In fact, while incumbents in all races from 1992-2002 managed 34% of undecideds, from 1976-1996, incumbent Presidents managed only 14% of undecideds.

The reasoning for this is actually quite simple. Most undecideds break toward the challenger because opinions about the incumbent are better formed. If someone is undecided about a candidate s/he has known for years, in reality that voter has probably made up her or his mind. The hypothetical undecided voter has decided that s/he does not like the incumbent, and tends to vote in a way that expresses that opinion. When it comes to incumbent Presidents, this is amplified because the President is the most visible elected official in the country. If, after nearly four years, someone still says they are not sure if he or she will vote for the sitting President, s/he has, in reality, almost certainly decided to vote against the sitting President.

An incumbent President, if he is extremely lucky and doubles the historical average, will mange 30% of the undecided vote in a given state. In their battleground polls, Real Clear Politics only has Nader above 2% in Maine, the second most third-party happy state in the nation. In their battleground polls, Real Clear Politics also never has the total number of undecideds surpassing 7.0% (Minnesota is right at 7.0%). With 30% of the undecided vote going to the incumbent, 7% of the electorate undecided, and 2% of the electorate going third-party, an incumbent--Bush--needs to be at 47.0% in order to have any chance at all to win the state. That is, an incumbent at 47.0% can still hope for a perfect storm, but even then is an extreme longshot.

With this in mind, I see that RCP lists Iowa, Maine CD-2, Minnesota, New Mexico, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin as toss ups. This just doesn't pass the smell test. Here are their own averages of where Bush stands in these and other "battleground" states:

Incumbent Dead Zone = < 47.0
                     
                    IA: 46.8
                    NM: 46.5
                    WI: 46.3
                    PA: 46.0
                    OR: 45.0
                    ME: 44.5 (translates to 45.6 2nd CD)
                    MN: 44.3
                    WA: 44.0
                    NH: 43.8
                    MI: 43.7
                    NJ: 43.0
Gee wiz, that's not too good for Bush, is it? Even Real Clear Politics, which is really fishing for pro-Bush polls, doesn't give Bush any real chance to win any Gore states. Further, they also give Bush no chance to win New Hampshire as well. Of course, they do not seem to realize this, as they still list Minnesota, where they have Bush at 44.5 and dead as a doornail, as a toss-up. In reality, because of the Incumbent Rule, they give Kerry 264 without breaking a sweat.

With Kerry at 264, he would only need six more electoral votes to win. Where could he possibly get those from? Here are some more RCP averages:

                    FL: 48.7
                    WV: 48.0
                    OH: 47.2
With 86% of the undecideds, Kerry would win all three of these states according the current RCP average. However, Ohio really sticks out. In a state without Nader (pushing the incumbent dead zone to 47.5), Bush is at 47.2, with only Faux News keeping Bush above 47.0. Further, they have Kerry at 47.6, already ahead of Bush even before the undecided break. Bush would need to win 60% of the undecideds in order to take Ohio, more than quadrupling the standard undecided break for an incumbent President.

Real Clear Politics has gone fishing, but they still haven't caught polls that put Bush in the driver's seat. According to their own battleground state poll averages, Kerry will win 316-222 unless Bush completely busts the Incumbent Rule. Incidentally, right now I also forecast a 316-222 victory for Kerry, largely because I allocate 80% of undecideds to Kerry based on the Incumbent Rule. They can pretend September and October Zogby polls do not exist, post Strategic Vision polls on their front page, and imagine that the latest Fox national poll actually means something, but even their own averages show Bush in serious trouble and with little time to turn things around.



Display:


Kerry's strategy problem (none / 0)

According to the CBS/NYT poll:

Americans don't like Bush. His unfavorables are 45%, favs, 43%.  Americans like the Democratic Party. So why are Bush and Kerry still tied in the election? 48% disapprove of Bush's performance (v. 44% approve), 59% believe the country is on the wrong track (v. 37% right track). 54% (v. 41%) belive Bush is mangling foreign policy. 53% (v. 42%) think he's runing the economy. 54%  (v. 42%) disapprove of the way Bush is handling Iraq.

But: 55% (v.38%) approve of the way Bush is handling the war on terror.

Since basically the same number of people assume that Bush is mis-handling Iraq and foreign policy, let's assume that people lump these together, and since 55% approve of Bush's war on terror, let's further assume that people differentiate between the war on terror and foreign policy (poster child: Iraq).

This is supported by the fact that 52% belive Bush has made the US safer (v. 29% less safe), 64% think Bush didn't do a good job thinking through the war on Iraq, and 49% of respondants don't think of the war with Iraq as part of the war on terrorism. A further 10% only think the war with Iraq is a minor part of the war on terrorism.

54% think the war in Iraq is going either somewhat or very badly, and 64% think that Iraq was either a contained threat that didn't require immediate action, or was not a threat at all.

So here's what the numbers say (to me): The key issue in the remaining days of the election is national security. Kerry has done a good job of elucidating Bush's poor record in Iraq, but he has not been successful in linking the failed war in Iraq to a failed war on terror. If Kerry can somehow succeed in combining the two issues in the final days of the campaign, he could gain a lot of ground.

by Kazoo on Wed Oct 20, 2004 at 04:44:53 AM EST

Re: Kerry's strategy problem (none / 0)

I think the strategy is sound, but most polls i have seen and people I have talked to say the same thing...to quote the Big Dog...IT's THE ECONOMY, Stupid.  I think Bush will always have the Security advantage...It has been beaten into Americans since the Cold war the Rethugs are Hawks and Dems are Doves.   Just like the opinion on liberalism, those stereotypes don't change overnight.  Last month, after the Bush ass licking fest (aka RNC Convention) the top issue was security.

The re-rise of Jobs and Economy as the top issue (30+% v 18 for Iraq and 17 for Terror) tells me that many are comfortable with Kerry in the war on terror.  I think that is why it was such a major issue last month because people were terrified Kerry was going to be terible with it.  The Debates help assauged that fear.  So now everything shifts to the economy.  It all comes down to whether they believe the Bush stereotype, Tax and spend Kerry or whether they acknowlege Bush's support of the richest Americans at the top 2%.  

We will never be able to erase Bush's lead on terror...it is too ingrained in the American Psyche.  We can defeat the Tax and spend stereotype and label Bush as he really is... A Tax Cut and spend into deficit Republican.  

by yitbos96bb on Wed Oct 20, 2004 at 09:54:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

GOPflacks for Real Conservative Politics (none / 0)

Just watching the rerun of Hardball, and it's telling that Ed Rogers, Republican flack extraordinaire, is whoring RCP as a 'comprehensive' resource for pollwatchers.
by etagloh on Wed Oct 20, 2004 at 04:54:15 AM EST

Re: GOPflacks for Real Conservative Politics (none / 0)

That said, Rove is banking on his own rule-of-thumb: the 'cheerleader effect', aka 'backing the perceived winner'. That might explain the trip to NJ, just as it accounted for the 2000 trip to California.

So it's the well-established Incumbency Rule against Rove's belief that by making Bush look like the winner, undecideds will follow the herd. Are there any precendents for Rove? Not at the polling booth, that's for sure. Perhaps in a race that's pretty much decided, but not in a neck-and-neck.

(After the fact? Perhaps: Florida polls of 'who did you vote for?' in late 2000 showed numbers which favored Bush. And we all know about the cheerleader effect of Bush, via Jim Baker, the bourgeois rioters and FOX News, declaring victory in Florida.)

So Rove and RCP are banking on the Incumbent Rule no longer being in effect, with the 'back the winner' rule in its place. With the current right track/wrong track numbers, and the Bush approval numbers, I don't see how a fair election makes that happen.

by etagloh on Wed Oct 20, 2004 at 05:16:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: GOPflacks for Real Conservative Politics (none / 0)

Not only is there no evidence for the "back the winner" theory but there is real evidence that it doesn't work.  In 1964, Goldwater picked up 3 points from the final polls even though everyone knew he was going to be beaten badly.  In 1992, Clinton was far enough ahead in the polls that he was clearly going to win, but he actually lost ground between the final poll and the election, while Perot picked up ground.  I would say there is a more powerful "protest vote" influence on voting in a race with a clear winner than there is a bandwagon affect.

But don't tell Rove that!

by PonyFan on Wed Oct 20, 2004 at 05:56:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: GOPflacks for Real Conservative Politics (none / 0)

I am not convinced of this.

The cheerleader effect would be seen more in the surpression of the opposition vote, not so much in the piling on at the end for the perceived leader.

From all the polling I have seen, GOPs strongly committed to Bush always show a greater percentage than Dems strongly commited for Kerry, or for any Democrat candidate for that matter since Rove and the GOP have been using the cheerleader effect in polling and in the biased corporate media now for 5 years and (I believe) it has had an effect, both in the Gore 200 race and in the Kerry 2004 race.

by leschwartz on Wed Oct 20, 2004 at 04:04:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Rove's strategy (none / 0)

It's so much about the "cheerleader effect" as it is about creating an alibi. The potential is very real here that Kerry will win, clearly and decisively. He's got Pennsylvania and he's now got Ohio. He will win the Electoral College and probably the popular vote.

But Rove's team is setting up a scenario where they will claim "election fraud" and "stealing the election." "How can Kerry have won so decisively, when the polls showed that it was too close to call? This is clear evidence of voter fraud!"

And of course, since exit polling has been eliminated, there are no corroborating independent organizations reporting on the voters' choice.

The RNC is already preparing its base for the legal challenges that they are going to issue. Kerry will win but they are going to try to beat him down in court.

But that's why it's so telling that Kerry's campaign song is Springsteen's "No Surrender". This is a man who has actually killed people that were threatening him. Who's the last President that did that?

If Kerry wins, we will all pick up our metaphoric guns and follow him to defend this election and this country. And that's what real leadership is.

by Louise on Wed Oct 20, 2004 at 09:54:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rove's strategy (none / 0)

Not to sound like a parrot...He has Ohio today...Don't get cocky and rest on your laurels.  My Cubs were in first place in the division for part of the season and in the Wild card for a good part...and they couldn't close the deal.  We need to attack this like Bush has a slight lead; it is better to do too much work than too little.  
by yitbos96bb on Wed Oct 20, 2004 at 09:58:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rove's strategy (none / 0)

I thought there was going to be exit polling.

by KTinOhio on Wed Oct 20, 2004 at 10:00:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rove's strategy (none / 0)

There is.  See my post on this string.
by yitbos96bb on Wed Oct 20, 2004 at 10:10:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rove's strategy (none / 0)

I am not sure why you think exit polling has been eliminated.  It hasn't.  They are simply changing the way the methodology is performed. They will included samples of absentee voters and will not call a state in two time zones until all Polls closed (GOP crybabies) VNS was disbanded after the 2K2 failures.  Now the AP runs the show, which was the backup in 2000.

Here is an article from USATODAY on the subject.  It is a good read.  This system was test run during the primaries with good results.  

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/2004-10-13-election-network_x.htm?POE=NEWISVA

by yitbos96bb on Wed Oct 20, 2004 at 10:10:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

exit polling (none / 0)

Thanks for the link. I knew that VNS had been disbanded, but wasn't aware that AP had picked up the baton.

Frankly, I think VNS wasn't wrong in its Florida projections; it was correct. It was just that the VNS findings didn't correspond with the vote-count manipulation that the Republicans engaged in.

by Louise on Wed Oct 20, 2004 at 10:27:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: exit polling (none / 0)

exactly
funny how VNS was "broken" because it nailed 49 of 50 states
only in Florida was it "wrong".
VNS had Gore winning Florida by 50,000 votes at 1pm in afternoon on Election Day 2000.
by smartone on Wed Oct 20, 2004 at 11:30:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: exit polling (none / 0)

Well VNS wasn't disbanded until after the mid term elections.  I don't remember the incorrect calls however during that one...does anyone?  I think this methodolgy of including the early voters isn't a bad one.  May give us a better picture.  
by yitbos96bb on Wed Oct 20, 2004 at 01:00:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: exit polling (none / 0)

If I remember correctly, VNS's computers melted down on election day 2002, and we never got its results.  Which was one big part of the reason that it was disbanded.
by BigModerate on Wed Oct 20, 2004 at 01:26:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: GOPflacks for Real Conservative Politics (none / 0)

etagloh, I don't think that's whoring. RCP, and ElectionProjection, seem to be as honest as we can ever expect someone to be while remaining partisan. I don't think we agree with their reasoning, but I don't think that they're deliberately distorting results in the way that we would jump on if they were.

Chris has given us a clear understanding of his methodology and obviously RCP has enouth of their methodology on display as well so that he can compare the two. I think he has excellent points, myself.

The fact is that anybody who tells you what way the election is going to go in two weeks is lying. Put money on it? Better off using it for the toilet; at least that way you'll get good use out of it. This election is going to be damned close.

Except I do have a hunch, a feeling, that it might not be so close. I would only call that a hunch. I am not ready to call it more.

by Dan Hartung on Wed Oct 20, 2004 at 05:16:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: GOPflacks for Real Conservative Politics (none / 0)

I take issue with Rogers' description of RCP as 'comprehensive' for the reasons Chris has outlined: that's to say, the site doesn't follow through on its own numbers.

The fact that its 'electoral count analysis' is nearly two weeks old (before the second debate) suggests that, as Chris said, the trends in state polling point to an outcome that 'they seem unwilling to tell themselves'.

by etagloh on Wed Oct 20, 2004 at 05:48:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: GOPflacks for Real Conservative Politics (none / 0)

The "analysis" is only the textual analysis.  They've updated their state predictions through yesterday (10/19).  See the top of the page, where they list how they have changed various state predictions for the last 2 weeks.
by BigModerate on Wed Oct 20, 2004 at 01:28:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: GOPflacks for Real Conservative Politics (none / 0)

I agree with your last comment, Dan.  I think the race will break big for Kerry at the last minute.  Over 300 EV.
by drlimerick on Wed Oct 20, 2004 at 07:26:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: GOPflacks for Real Conservative Politics (none / 0)

Ed wasn't whoring???  How much did they pay you to say that.  If they have your wife or kids, cough once...We will try to mount a rescue operation.  ;-)
by yitbos96bb on Wed Oct 20, 2004 at 10:13:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Hey Chris (none / 0)

What's your take on this guy's analysis of the incumbent rule? He gets some numbers wrong, which makes me skeptical, and seems to be a little unclear about how far out from the election the polls he's looking at are.

But it's the first attempt I've seen to argue rationally against it. He thinks it'll be an approximately even split, which would make things substantially worse for Kerry.

Whither The Undecideds
Whither Undecideds, Take II

by drewthaler on Wed Oct 20, 2004 at 05:18:13 AM EST

thanks... (none / 0)

...for the analysis and supporting argument.  

I went to bed feeling discouraged and am feeling a little more feisty now.  

Did Chris Matthews have any competent Dem spokespersons on last night?   On the other hand, does it matter?  Are any undecideds actually watching Hardball?  If not, what are they watching?

On another note: I just (this moment) heard NPR is having a live online chat today at noon with Andrew Kohut (Pew Research Center  for The People & The Press) on 'the polls.'

www.npr.org

by sarany on Wed Oct 20, 2004 at 08:16:56 AM EST

Re: thanks... (none / 0)

Probably Law and Order or The Biggest Loser would be my guest.  We are probably talking Joe Six pack not Sam Champaign.
by yitbos96bb on Wed Oct 20, 2004 at 10:22:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

leaners, security moms, third-party-happy states (none / 0)

The fact that an internet essay with questionable documentation is getting tossed around so often as a rebuttal to the incumbent rule demonstrates how strongly the experts (academic and otherwise) believe in that rule. Even the Mystery Pollster, a Dem who got into the Web game partly to counter what he viewed as Ruy Texeira's rosy spectacles, tells us that Kerry will pick up most undecideds, IF they remain undecided ten days or so from now.

"But what about the fear factor?" you may ask. Rasmussen's state poll of MN, and a few other state polls in the last week, show leaners pushing apparently tied races towards Bush; that odd stat, the reverse gender gap in a few polls (where Bush does better among women), and last month's poll finding that women outside the Northeast Corridor are much more likely than men to fear that they will personally be hurt by terrorist attacks, makes me wonder whether the incumbent rule will apply less strongly this year, as voters who dislike both candidates fear changing horses, or think Bush at least keeps us strong (even if they also know he misleads, pollutes, and favors the wealthy). I wonder if 80% for Kerry = too hopeful. But even a 60-40 break for Kerry, if current state numbers hold, would give him the White House, though perhaps without FL.

I have no problem with conservative commentators sending viewers to RCP for political analysis, no more than I'd have a problem with Dems on TV sending viewers to this site, or to dailykos, or to Ruy T.

And finally: if ME's the second most third-party-happy state in the union, what's #1? Wisconsin? Oregon?

by accommodatingly on Wed Oct 20, 2004 at 08:29:00 AM EST

MN is #1 (none / 0)

Minnesota is #1 in that category.  We elected Ventura, remember.  It also had a large Nader vote in 2000.  Independence Party (the former Reform party) and Greens are considered "major parties" here, with automatic ballot status (although they may both lose it after this election, with no big statewide vote getters on their tickets).  Petition requirement for minor parties is low, so every fringe group is on the ballot.
by aenglish on Wed Oct 20, 2004 at 09:25:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MN is #1 (none / 0)

What about Alaska? They're usually way up there too - got a lot of support for Perot first time around.
by TheGaffer on Wed Oct 20, 2004 at 09:34:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Its Alaska (none / 0)

Maine blows away any other state for second. Alaska blows away Maine for first.
by Chris Bowers on Wed Oct 20, 2004 at 11:32:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

internet essay (blog post) (none / 0)

The fact that an internet essay with questionable documentation is getting tossed around so often as a rebuttal to the incumbent rule demonstrates how strongly the experts (academic and otherwise) believe in that rule.

Oh, I agree... it seems bogus. I really don't like the way he got numbers wrong that coincidentally supported his argument, stated his conclusion in a misleading way that had to be clarified in a second post, and then narrowed the scope of his conclusion without really updating the original post. But I find it interesting that he looked at the same data and stubbornly came to a different conclusion -- either this is a failure of objectivity or he's just incompetent.

FWIW, here's my take:

  • He leads off by attempting to argue that Gore was an incumbent. I don't see how that works -- since the VP's duties are traditionally nil, a VP is much less defined as an executive and doesn't have a record to run on.

  • He argues against undecideds from polls 5 months to 1 month out breaking in any consistent manner. I grant him that point on a technicality, but I have to say: Duh. Was this ever in question? All that "if the election were held today" stuff that the 24x7 channels waste so much time on is bullshit. That's before people learn about the challengers and well before the debates, and well before any high-profile mistakes are made. I mean, I'll bet money that undecideds don't break consistently if polled 12 or 24 months before the election too. :-)

  • He finally agrees that the incumbent rule applies to the final polls. Rather than considering the percentage of the undecideds, he computes a point spread of 3.2. Then he drops one "outlier" to bring it down to 2.0. He ignores the number of undecideds, and generally downplays it as "some" break, within the margin of error -- ignoring the fact that averaging the polls changes the error calculation.

I think it's a classic example of fishing for the results you want, myself, but Chris is good about objective analyses so I'm still curious about what he has to say. Race2004 linked to this guy, so there's potential for some good readership if anyone posts a good debunking of it.
by drewthaler on Wed Oct 20, 2004 at 01:32:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

break of 2 or 3.2 points (none / 0)

btw, even if you accept his point-spread argument, it's not at all clear to me how you would use that to allocate undecideds as part of a projection. Presumably you need to compute how many undecideds there were on average among the polls, although overall the whole methodology is sketchy.

If undecideds average to 5%, then a 2 point break means they break 70% against the incumbent; a 3.2 point break means they'll break 82% against the incumbent.

If undecideds average to 10% (not likely, even including averages back 24 years), then a 2 point break means they break 60% against the incumbent; a 3.2 point break means they'll break 66% against the incumbent.

Hm. Whatever way you slice it, seems like the incumbent rule to me...

by drewthaler on Wed Oct 20, 2004 at 01:52:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Ohio (none / 0)

From the Electoral-Vote.com site, if you choose to see "all polling data," it gives you this:

POLLSTER        KERRY        BUSH
Opinion Dynamics    45        47
SurveyUSA        49        47
ABCNews                50        47
Zogby            48        51
Rasmussen        47        47
Univ. of Cincinnati    48        46

These are all, like, in the last TWO days. And that Zogby poll, which is the one I cited yesterday? They're INTERNET polls -- I even emailed one of the professors who posts to that "Donkey Rising" site a lot -- Alan Abramowitz -- who says he never cites them because of that reason.

So, that gives you three polls with Kerry leading, two with Bush leading - even though in one of them, he gets 47%, and the other is discredited - and one tied.

by TheGaffer on Wed Oct 20, 2004 at 09:34:18 AM EST

Gallup "Rules" (none / 0)

Chris,

With all of the issues surrounding Gallup this year, what is your take on the Gallup "rules"?  Those are that since 1952, 1) the incumbent's final poll numbers (not sure if this means RV or LV) has been accurate within +/- 1% (Senior Bush having the highest bounce of 0.75%) and 2) that any incumbent who Gallup has had with Approval rating above 50% on the final poll wins (and below loses).  History is on their side, but the Gallup issues haven't been majorly discussed until this election.  I know Bush is at 51 approval right now, which is one miscue away from dropping below 50%.  I was curious on your thoughts about this.

by yitbos96bb on Wed Oct 20, 2004 at 09:45:48 AM EST

Re: Gallup "Rules" (none / 0)

And no baseball team had EVER come back from a 3-0 deficit in the postseason to force a Game Seven until...yesterday. Considering Gallup's sampling problems I wouldn't put much stock in the Gallup Rule.
by elrod on Wed Oct 20, 2004 at 10:44:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Gallup "Rules" (none / 0)

I am not sure what stock I put into it.  I am merely stating the fact about this rule...I think Kerry will win; I was just curious for thoughts on this topic, since it is historically accurate, much the same way as the incumbent rule (which could be argued with the same arguement you just made).
by yitbos96bb on Wed Oct 20, 2004 at 12:58:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Undecideds...? (none / 0)

Has anyone investigated the percentage of undecideds who vote for third-party candidates or simply stay home?

by KTinOhio on Wed Oct 20, 2004 at 09:51:17 AM EST

In the bag? (none / 0)

All sounds pretty good for a Kerry victory! I was getting worried about the polls showing Bush leads.

If there's a good turnout then the election could be in the bag, barring external events and massive fraud.

I need to have a look in to the fraud situation in Ohio -- anyone know if they're using electronic machines?

by daveholden on Wed Oct 20, 2004 at 10:25:58 AM EST

Thanks, but where's your email? (none / 0)

Chris,

Just wanted to say thanks for your hard work this election cycle.  I've really depended on you and Jerome for no-BS analysis.  Much appreciated.

I'd have sent this via email, but where's your email address?  Is it kosher to run a blog without having an email address?

Please keep up the good work.

by powersjq on Wed Oct 20, 2004 at 10:35:26 AM EST

Nice analysis but (none / 0)

you're forgetting about margin of error. In most of these states, Bush could easily be above the "dead zone".
by AS on Wed Oct 20, 2004 at 12:10:42 PM EST

Re: Nice analysis but (none / 0)

On the other hand, Bush could be even that much deeper in the dead zone.
by Steve F on Wed Oct 20, 2004 at 12:31:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Amen, Louise..... (none / 0)

What Louise said--  She nails it absolutely.

Here's what I think Rove's primary strategy will be:  Remember in 2000 when Florida Secretary of State Kathleen Harris made sure to certify the vote quickly, before the ongoing recount could show Al Gore had taken the lead?  For this election, Rove will turn that around and make sure that GOP officials in states like Ohio and Florida delay certification of the vote totals if Kerry is winning.  This will give Republican operatives time to file lawsuits, and generally work the refs in whatever ways they can.  They will foster an atmosphere of chaos and confusion, on the assumption that Scalia and the Felonious Five will save their ass again.  This is the scenario that I anticipate--  the good news is that we have seen this movie before, and will be better prepared to deal with it.

by global yokel on Wed Oct 20, 2004 at 12:58:55 PM EST

Back up plan: Arkansas? (none / 0)

Just a thought: if, and that is a BIG if, the Zogby numbers are right and hold up, then that leaves Kerry needing to win either Ohio or Florida to get the 6 EVs he'll be short.  Has anyone done any research into whether sending Bill Clinton to Arkansas (6 EVs) in addition to PA, could help swing his old state to Kerry as insurance? Zogby had Bush under 50%.
by filadog on Wed Oct 20, 2004 at 01:54:27 PM EST

Re: Back up plan: Arkansas? (none / 0)

My question is: why is Clinton going to Pennsylvania at all?  Don't we have that wrapped up?  Send him to Arkansas!
by BigModerate on Wed Oct 20, 2004 at 02:06:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Back up plan: Arkansas? (none / 0)

And, as long as he's down there, send him to Missouri and Tennessee.  Couldn't hurt.

by KTinOhio on Wed Oct 20, 2004 at 02:10:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Back up plan: Arkansas? (none / 0)

In simple terms: Kerry needs big minority turnout in Philly to seal the deal on PA, and the Big Dawg is perfect for that.
by etagloh on Wed Oct 20, 2004 at 04:22:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Too late for Bush to pull *me* over to the DkSide (none / 0)

... I live in TN, and voted Monday. Go Kerry!
.
by JPrestonian on Wed Oct 20, 2004 at 03:31:07 PM EST


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