We are not naive.
I know that others have called Obama just a pretty face, but that has never been my criticism of him.
My criticism has to do with false credentials as a progressive, based on what he's actually done in the Senate. Is he a better Hillary Clinton? Yes, he's a better Hillary Clinton. Is he a better, more consensus-building Paul Wellstone or Russ Feingold? No, he is not a better Paul Wellstone or Russ Feingold.
However, I do criticize his supporters along the pretty face lines, because that's what their support is based on.
I appreaciate the fact that you are atypical. But so far, you are very atypical.
Thanks -- and I agree with you that the cloture vote was the important one. But why is that relevant here, since he voted against cloture ( = for the filibuster) as well?
Did he go out and fight for it?
I dunno. Why don't you take over the research on this one?
If you are supporting him, you should be able to answer these questions.
OK, the non-snarky version:
I can find out relatively easily whether or not Obama voted for the Bankruptcy Bill (no) and whether he cared enough to vote against cloture, rather than voting for cloture and then against the bill so that he could claim to have voted against it while not having supported it when it really counted. (He voted against cloture, so he did support it when it really counted.)
I am not in DC working on the Hill, so I wasn't around when the fights were happening. Thus, I have to rely on press reports to tell me who "really fought against" a given bill. Those press reports might tell me about the activities of the people the Senate Democrats designated as point people on the bill, but they might not.
If Obama was not the point person on the bill, what would his "really fighting against it" consist in, above and beyond the votes? Presumably his having tried to persuade other Senators to support it. Is there any reason to think that those conversations would have made it into any source available to me, a random citizen? Not that I can see.
It is, I think, incumbent on all of us to try to find the facts behind our assertions. Since I am not, in fact, a supporter of Obama, I don't think it's specially incumbent on me to find out the facts about him -- the only reason I ever got into this argument was that I had run across some facts while doing other things. But I think it is clearly not incumbent on me to be able to answer any question anyone can come up with, whether or not there's any reason to think that I could possibly find out the answer. And knowing how hard Obama pushed for something, as distinct from how he voted, is one of those things I don't see any way to find out about.
So let me ask anyone who thinks I should be able to answer this question: do you have any concrete reason to think that he did not fight hard against the Bankruptcy Bill?
Note: in the comment above, I dropped a 'not' from this sentence: "Presumably his having tried to persuade other Senators to support it." NOT to support it.
Note to self: proofreading is your friend.
I suck at proof reading and I am a lawyer.
actually if you wanted to know you could figure it out. but the question is do you want to know? that's my problem with the discussion. when people want to go deeper, and critique him for things he has said, or ideals he expoused, there seems to be this roadblock. It reminds me of the discussion about how to treat the South as a region which often switch by some from being a question of should there be a South only strategy which has dominated both parties for 150 years or so, or should there be a multi regional strategy, the debate normal shifts into pretending one is having an abandon the South conversation. It really feels, whether the posters intend it or not, manipulative, and it contributes to my feelings that this is a lot of hype. When I hear that this guy is so great, I want concrete stories and examples as proof. THis really isn't about Obama- it's about Kerry and Gore, and all the others who were hyped before Obama. No more hype, more substance. That's about all I am saying.
