Healthcare looks done this year

Too many intractable differences for it to move forward right now. The signs of of it ending are all around. Consider the source (Kristol), but the truth is probably close: (President Obama, in Copenhagen, reportedly just said, "If I've lost David Brooks, I've lost enlightened America.")

Jane has a post up on The Left/Right Populist Wrap-Around Vs. the Beltway Insiders that has a quote from some left-center blogger that channels Rahm:

The trick is to put a package together that some visible element of "the left" is out there opposing, but that actually has the support of everyone who matters on the left. SEIU isn't opposing the bill. NAACP isn't opposing the bill. Important thought-leaders like Paul Krugman aren't opposing the bill. Surf over to and you'll see they're highlighting some "f*** you Joe Lieberman" stuff, but not seriously trying to push liberal Senators to vote "no"...
Ah, edit that... MoveOn has come out against the privatized mandate bill.

And here, spot on:

There is an enormous, rising tide of populism that crosses party lines in objection to the Senate bill. We opposed the bank bailouts, the AIG bonuses, the lack of transparency about the Federal Reserve, "bailout" Ben Bernanke, and the way the Democrats have used their power to sell the country's resources to secure their own personal advantage, just as the libertarians have. In fact, we've worked together with them to oppose these things. What we agree on: both parties are working against the interests of the public, the only difference is in the messaging.
Glenn Greenwald echos it: As I've noted before, this growing opposition to corporatism -- to the virtually absolute domination of our political process by large corporations -- is one of the many issues that transcend the trite left/right drama endlessly used as a distraction.  The anger among both the left and right towards the bank bailout, and towards lobbyist influence in general, illustrates that.

I got started in a post of wonks vs hacks, along the lines of what Jake lays out (w/o the pivot on the support of the Iraq invasion), because there is some general truth to the divide. I think of it more along the lines of the way that wonks tend to think of policy primarily with a reference to "how DC works" and and hacks tend to think of policy primarily within a reference of electoral ("this is what's wrong with DC") campaigns.

The division is one of populist progressives and pragmatic progressives. Same team, but really different worldviews.

Update [2009-12-18 23:38:39 by Jerome Armstrong]:

Reid is going to offer his amendment to the bill Saturday morning to replace the language from the base bill that included the public-option. Some are saying it is going to contain a "non-profit plan" that will compete with Insurance companies (and that Reid almost called it a public option but corrected himself). Others that it is a "nameless plan" that is in essence has nothing to do with medicare or a public option. A few days of smoke and mirrors and then viola:

Lawmakers must vote early Monday to cut off debate on Reid’s amendment if they are to stick to a timeline that would set a final vote on the healthcare bill after 7 pm on Christmas Eve.Sausage is made... commence the cheerleading for Aetna, and lets all cheer, for bringing in 2010 that: tables anything divisive (RE: progressive change) in favor of bipartisan commissions (RE: lurch right ahead)!

TNR spells it out for you:

Here are my suggestions (Wiliam Galston).

* Get health care done as quickly as possible. The House should recognize that any Senate bill that can garner 60 votes is likely the only bill that can do so. Logic suggests that the best course would simply be for the House to pass the Senate bill, avoiding a useless and time wasting conference.

* Pivot hard toward the economy and jobs, and keep the focus there throughout 2010. That means keeping divisive issues—such as immigration and cap-and-trade—off next year’s legislative agenda. It also means more action—such as expanding the flow of credit to small business—to promote job creation in the private sector.

* Acknowledge that public concern about spending, deficits, and debt is high and rising. That doesn’t mean turning toward fiscal restraint next year, while the economy remains fragile. It does mean endorsing the creation of a bipartisan fiscal commission—along the lines of the Base Realignment and Closure Commission—with the power to make recommendations after the mid-term elections to which Congress would be required to respond early in 2011.

But not passing by the end of the year. Into Jan it will go (where maybe the House will show some fortitude).

Tags: hcr (all tags)



Re: Healthcare looks done this year

Good becuase what they put together was crap...plain and simple.....

by BuckeyeBlogger 2009-12-18 01:34PM | 0 recs
I take it you support a single payer solution


by ND22 2009-12-18 01:42PM | 0 recs
Re: I take it you support a single payer solution


by BuckeyeBlogger 2009-12-18 01:54PM | 0 recs
you don't support single payer

you don't support a robust public option, you don't support a weaker public option, you don't support no public option, I don't know what the fuck you support.

by ND22 2009-12-18 02:18PM | 0 recs
Re: you don't support single payer

He supports the GOP health care plan.

I hear they are putting the "finishing touches" on it as we speak!

by vecky 2009-12-18 02:22PM | 0 recs

because he just listed the REPUBLICAN HEALTHCARE PLAN as the one he supports

by ND22 2009-12-18 02:38PM | 0 recs
Re: you don't support single payer

I support the measures I mentioned in my original post. After implementing those, improving healthcare education for the public in the form of better understanding of ones own responsibility in proper nutrition and excercise, mass implementation of Healthcare IT, if we still have not seen a significant enough improvement in cost, access and treatment outcome, than I would go right along implementing a robust public option.

I know what you support....massive government intevention into all parts of our lives and business and uncontrolled spending....

by BuckeyeBlogger 2009-12-18 02:33PM | 0 recs
so basically the Republican plan

eat an apple and hope you don't die.

I know what you support....massive government intevention into all parts of our lives and business and uncontrolled spending....

no Democrat in this country, not even the most conservative one, would ever say take your Republican troll crap elsewhere, k?

by ND22 2009-12-18 02:35PM | 0 recs
Re: so basically the Republican plan

Funny, I said cousing lifelone democrat (long than I), said much the same thing the other day. Y asee, just becuase your blind to it, doesnt mean the rest of us are......whatever....we can disagree....I will still wish you all a Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah, Happy New Year. Why, because in the grand scheme of things politics and opinion dont matter. What does is family, friendship and faith. Good night......So Long.....farewell.....(for now!)

by BuckeyeBlogger 2009-12-18 06:02PM | 0 recs
I kissed a man once

doesn't make me gay.

by ND22 2009-12-19 07:16PM | 0 recs
Re: you don't support single payer

" if we still have not seen a significant enough improvement in cost, access and treatment outcome "

You already know the answer to that. Why not just come out and state you have no idea what you are saying and you have no plan beyond fuzzy ideas?

by vecky 2009-12-18 02:36PM | 0 recs
Re: you don't support single payer

And you embrace what politicians spout instead of what those who actually work in the healthcare profession continually state what does and will work. Your just an ignorant sense in me talking to a doorknob...

by BuckeyeBlogger 2009-12-18 05:53PM | 0 recs
Those who work in the healthcare profession

many of them seem to think we should get rid of private insurance all together and adopt the British model...I know there's a hell of a lot of nurses who thinks so.

and then there are some who don't. Insurance company execs for example.,

Actually, kinda like politicians.

by ND22 2009-12-18 06:19PM | 0 recs
Re: you don't support single payer

Your the fool here for thinking doctors and care specialists don't currently counsel their patients to eat healthy and exercise. Even the government does that. When was the last time you visited the doc?

Regarding solutions to our current problems, who have nothing. Why don't you just admit that instead of calling others names? Stupid conservatives....

by vecky 2009-12-18 06:46PM | 0 recs
Re: you don't support single payer

And I provided you data that your position is false. For example, other countries like the UK has as bad a diet as we do, and yet, they are not faced with health care cost as high as we have. You seem to gloss over that in favor of repeating the personal responsbility meme.

by bruh3 2009-12-18 02:43PM | 0 recs
Re: you don't support single payer

I can certainly vouch for the bad diet of the British.

by orestes 2009-12-18 05:35PM | 0 recs
Re: you don't support single payer

Yeah, I have friends there, but more importantly I researched the facts.  I have come to realize he posts this stuff to have a faux ideological  battles with a few bloggers. He is not serious about discussing the factual basis of his assertions.

by bruh3 2009-12-18 09:52PM | 0 recs
Re: Healthcare looks done this year

That's merely about the left, but it's not becasue of the left that the bill is going to fail (Howard Deans screams not withstanding).

The real reason is because of folk like Nelson, Lieberman and the 40 other senatorial republicans who don't want to get anything done.

by vecky 2009-12-18 01:34PM | 0 recs
Re: Healthcare looks done this year

Right, bigger picture that's correct. I was just  ommenting on the last few days-- post all that you bring up.

by Jerome Armstrong 2009-12-18 01:42PM | 0 recs
Re: Healthcare looks done this year

I think it's looking increasingly likely that Ben Nelson is going to sink this whole thing just so he can get a board of directors post in Cigna in 2013.

Where we go from there I don't know...

by vecky 2009-12-18 01:45PM | 0 recs

A scaled-back bill through reconciliation is the best option now. Then try to pass a few of the insurance reforms as a regular bill. There are some Republicans who would go along with revoking the anti-trust exemption.

by desmoinesdem 2009-12-18 05:06PM | 0 recs
Re: reconciliation

But they won't be able to stop adverse selection (recission, pre-existing conditions) through reconciliation.  If we push through a public option, or something similar, through reconciliation, the Republicans and ConservaDems won't go along with passing it later.  And, with no ban on adverse selection, the insurance companies will simply dump their sick policyholders and let them go with the public option...resulting in public option premiums that will be considerably  higher than private insurance.

by JDWalley 2009-12-18 05:22PM | 0 recs
Re: reconciliation

fine, put rescission and pre-existing conditions in their own bills and see if the public pressure can keep 41 senators from voting to keep them legal.

those practices are EXTREMELY unpopular. But yeah, it seems like most senators care more about insurance money than what their constituents want.

by jeopardy 2009-12-18 06:17PM | 0 recs
because public pressure matters?

by ND22 2009-12-18 06:20PM | 0 recs
Re: because public pressure matters?

yeah, and i said that it may not matter enough in the last post.

but when support for the health care bill goes from 50+% to 33% in a week, and now the bill looks like it's going to be scraped, then perhaps that shows that public pressure CAN have an effect.

by jeopardy 2009-12-18 06:52PM | 0 recs
in a week?

the bill hasn't been popular since at least early November.

by ND22 2009-12-18 06:56PM | 0 recs
Re: in a week?

ok, i'm having a bit of trouble finding the polls from the relevant time periods from the same pollsters, so I will concede the point for now.

by jeopardy 2009-12-18 07:26PM | 0 recs
Re: in a week?

It's slipped from a couple of polls at 37% and 39% about a week ago, and then in the 40's the week previous. Seems about a 5-7% slip per week over the past month.

by Jerome Armstrong 2009-12-18 07:42PM | 0 recs
Re: Its gonna fail becaus Obama tried to be slick

Nice! Glad to see your use of tags.

by Charles Lemos 2009-12-18 03:00PM | 0 recs
Re: Its gonna fail becaus Obama tried to be slick

Yeah, some fanboy cheerleader kossack baby must have given him a tutorial.  I'll bet he didn't even bother to thank him.

by Strummerson 2009-12-18 05:31PM | 0 recs
Re: Its gonna fail becaus Obama tried to be slick

Charles explained to him earlier how to do so when he posted a link regarding info from I believe a union, but the blocking did not work.

by bruh3 2009-12-18 05:39PM | 0 recs
Re: Its gonna fail becaus Obama tried to be slick

Actually, I showed him.  It worked.

by Strummerson 2009-12-18 05:51PM | 0 recs
Re: Its gonna fail becaus Obama tried to be slick

Here's the link: 202544/44/3#3

by Strummerson 2009-12-18 05:54PM | 0 recs
Re: Its gonna fail becaus Obama tried to be slick

Main Problem is the choice of Rahm Emanuel, the slick DLC guy.  Thinks he knows everything and he knows nothing of progressives and the middle class that has enough!

The other BIG problem is that Obama listens to him!

by lja 2009-12-18 06:14PM | 0 recs
Re: Healthcare looks done this year

Leiberman, Nelson, and the GOP did not want actual reform.

They were going to keep demanding the bill get weaker and weaker.

At some point, the the bill was going to get so bad that left was going to revolt.

I'm kinda surprised the bill got as weak as it did before it happened, but it was going to happen at some point, whether Dean came out now or not.

we now need to find another way to do this.

by jeopardy 2009-12-18 01:44PM | 0 recs
Re: Healthcare looks done this year

I'm starting to think the bill may be dead too, but I have no illusions that anything gets done on health care this Congress if the Senate bill dies.  And I don't say that as a threat- I just think the leadership will move on to jobs, financial regulation, and climate change, with the latter two issues probably a repeat of the health care debate.  Since we're going to loss seats in 2010 no matter what happens at this point, I don't see health care back on the agenda till 2013 at the earliest.  And more realistically, probably 2016 or later.  

Really, the best thing we can do at this point--assuming this bill really is dead--is to try and reach an agreement to change/eliminate the filibuster at some set future point.  Then, if we happen to get a majority thereafter, it might just be possible to pass something meaningful.  

I need a drink.    

by HSTruman 2009-12-18 01:51PM | 0 recs
Obama needs something to happen

He cannot be empty-handed on health care a year fro now. That said, he may need to scale back his ambitions dramatically.

Say, pass the Medicaid expansion and a couple of other parts through reconciliation. Try to pass guaranteed issue and community rating through a regular bill, but without the mandate and exchange, etc.

by desmoinesdem 2009-12-18 02:24PM | 0 recs
Well not for nothing

but I was supporting the idea of dramatic lowering ambitious during the actual campaign over a year ago.

Say, pass the Medicaid expansion and a couple of other parts through reconciliation. Try to pass guaranteed issue and community rating through a regular bill, but without the mandate and exchange, etc.

You and I both know Nelson and Lieberman are going to try and kill the regular bill.

by ND22 2009-12-18 02:27PM | 0 recs
Re: WHERE does the Buck stop?

. . . and then he says to pass the Senate bill.

Seriously, stop distorting what Krugman has said.  It's obnoxious.

by HSTruman 2009-12-18 07:03PM | 0 recs
Re: Healthcare looks done this year


by QTG 2009-12-18 01:46PM | 0 recs
If David Brooks is signature of "enlightened

America" then that's pretty thin layer. I doubt Obama would make such a gaffe!

by louisprandtl 2009-12-18 01:49PM | 0 recs
Re: If David Brooks

Kristol likes to make stuff up.

I read Brooks peice and found most of the reasons he states to support the bill by far out way the reasons he states to oppose it (which are nebulous at best).

" Sixth, if this passes, we will never get back to cost control. The basic political deal was, we get to have dessert (expanding coverage) but we have to eat our spinach (cost control), too. If we eat dessert now, we'll never come back to the spinach. "

I Guess that is the heart of the problem, folk like Brooks, Nelson, Snowe and some others see "expanding coverage" as desert. I see it as the meat and potatoes.

I can gauruntee you if the NYT suddenly dropped Brooks coverage in the name of "cost control" - eat your spinach - he would change his tune about coverage merely being desert.

by vecky 2009-12-18 01:57PM | 0 recs
His final "No" inference was weak

and spoke badly of the columnist reasoning process. He started well with pros and cons and then chickened out as his credentials with the conservatives would be in tatters if he came out for the bill.

by louisprandtl 2009-12-18 02:49PM | 0 recs
I trust nothing Kristol says

He definitely makes stuff up.

by desmoinesdem 2009-12-18 05:07PM | 0 recs
Re: Healthcare looks done this year

They could fairly easily have passed a bill this year if they kept it simple. First craft a bill that prevents insurers from denying coverage, second, include tax credits for individuals and small businesses that cant afford it and increase tax credits to large businesses as well. Finally pass the Health Care Choice act HR2355, which would allow consumers to buy health plans across state lines. Those 3 would have opened up access to many who cant get or afford and by allowing access across state lines, drive costs down and insurers further are forced to compete.

Instead what we go was a monstrosity of a bill full of controversey and crap. Ultimately its failing.

by BuckeyeBlogger 2009-12-18 01:54PM | 0 recs
Re: Healthcare looks done this year

Question about HR2335

Did it  the same giant loophole that the Senate bill has regarding "nationwide" plans?

I'm talking about this:

   (B) with respect to State laws mandating benefit coverage by a health plan, only the State laws of the State in which such plan is written or issued shall apply to the nationwide qualified health plan.

It clearly says right there in the bill that Aetna could set up shop in Indiana and sell insurance in New York that only meets Indiana's lower standards. This could produce a race to the bottom.

The worst part is that it is an "opt-out" and not an "opt-in" program (unless Snowe succesfully removes the opt-out).

States would not be able to act in time to prevent their regulations from effectively being gutted by "nationwide plans."

Nationwide plans nullify state laws regulating what kinds of health insurance must be sold in their state.

by jeopardy 2009-12-18 01:59PM | 0 recs
Re: Healthcare looks done this year

It's not nation-wide, it's state-tot-state. i>e: Delaware and PA could get together and offer plans across both states. NY could join in. If the states agree that is.

by vecky 2009-12-18 02:04PM | 0 recs
Re: Healthcare looks done this year

Please think about what you post before posting.

" First craft a bill that prevents insurers from denying coverage "

- you mean ban recession and pre-exiting condition exemptions? Already in the bill.

" second, include tax credits for individuals and small businesses that cant afford it and increase tax credits to large businesses as well. "

Subsidies are in this bill. How do you prose to pay for them?

" Finally pass the Health Care Choice act HR2355, which would allow consumers to buy health plans across state lines. "

How would this effect anything? How would a customer in Delaware benefit from purchasing a plan from BCBS of Oregon ? Or maybe you know that insurers charges 50% more for coverage in out-of-area providers. So the poor customer in Delaware gets shafted because he now can buy insurance that doesn't cover any hospitals or doctors within 3000 miles of him.

by vecky 2009-12-18 02:03PM | 0 recs
Re: Healthcare looks done this year

you guys are so easy to rile up......pretty funny actually....

by BuckeyeBlogger 2009-12-18 05:57PM | 0 recs
Confessions of a Right-Wing troll

by ND22 2009-12-18 06:17PM | 0 recs
Two of the three things here

are already in the bill!?!?!

by ND22 2009-12-18 02:21PM | 0 recs
Re: Two of the three things here

Actually all three - the bill does allow customers to buy across state lines, if the two states in question agree.

by vecky 2009-12-18 02:24PM | 0 recs
Re: Two of the three things here

They shouldnt be given the option to agree. It should be a matter of federal law, with standards and regs put in place by the Federal Government.

by BuckeyeBlogger 2009-12-18 02:37PM | 0 recs
and here I thought

Republicans liked states' rights.

by ND22 2009-12-18 02:39PM | 0 recs
Re: and here I thought

Most conservatives like some form of dictatorship and would run roughshod over "rights" (of any kind) if they could.

by vecky 2009-12-18 02:46PM | 0 recs
except of course

the super rich...err...working class, yeah, they're the working class. lol

by ND22 2009-12-18 02:54PM | 0 recs
Re: except of course

Your just upset because yours ideas are failing and in fact the overwhelming majority of americans repudiate your foolishness.....face it....fact is more americans identify themselves as  they conservative democrats or republicanns. Liberals are the minority becuase you believe in failed ideas....

by BuckeyeBlogger 2009-12-18 05:55PM | 0 recs
You're right, I am upset

who knew Americans were so damn suicidal.

by ND22 2009-12-18 06:14PM | 0 recs
Re: except of course

Actually most Americans are liberal and hold liberal positions. That's why stuff like medicare, social security, tough regulation of industry, consumer protections, individual liberties are so popular, and why conservatives have failed at over turning every single one.

The only lock conservatives have is over the business industry and wall street. And following the failure of the last ten years even those guys are abandoing you. Pretty much all the new industry (clean tech, interent, etc) are liberal.

by vecky 2009-12-18 06:51PM | 0 recs
Re: except of course

Really? Because in the latest battelground poll, 63 percent of those polled identified themselves as conservative. A poll done by a bipartisan organization which for years has been known for accuracy. So how do you explain that?

by BuckeyeBlogger 2009-12-19 08:05AM | 0 recs
Re: except of course

There has never been a poll in history where 63% of Americans describe themselves as conservative.  Give me a break.

by Steve M 2009-12-19 08:17AM | 0 recs
Re: except of course

"On December 16, 2009, Battleground released its latest poll.  In this poll, 63% of the American people described themselves as "very conservative" or "somewhat conservative." The rest of America - not just liberals, but moderates and people who were unsure about their ideology or chose not to respond to that question, totaled, collectively, only 37% of America.  A measly one percent of Americans called themselves moderates; 25% of Americans called themselves "somewhat liberal," and 8% of Americans called themselves "very liberal." 

Question 3D:

D3. When thinking about politics and government, do you consider yourself to be...
Very conservative............................ ........................23%
Somewhat conservative............................ ...............40%
MODERATE (DNR)................................... .............1%
Somewhat liberal................................. ....................25%
Very liberal ........................................ ........................8%
UNSURE/REFUSED (DNR) ...................................2%

This from the George Washington University Battleground Poll results released Dec 16, 2009.

by BuckeyeBlogger 2009-12-19 08:37AM | 0 recs
Re: except of course

Do you think 1% of the population considers themselves moderate?  One percent?

by Steve M 2009-12-19 09:02AM | 0 recs
Re: except of course

Ya know what, GW has been sponsorign this poll for years, and their results notably during campaigns has been highly accurate. The poll is administered by a bipartisan group, one a democratic and one a republican organization. So just because you dont like the results, in your eyes means you can deny it. Oh thats right, dont confuse you with the facts, your mind is already made up.

by BuckeyeBlogger 2009-12-19 09:11AM | 0 recs
Re: except of course

You seriously think only one percent of the country describes themselves as moderate.  Let's just leave that statement out there as a testament to your critical thinking abilities.

by Steve M 2009-12-19 09:54AM | 0 recs
Re: except of course based upon your opinion, you have decided to ignore the results of polling from a bipartisan and highly reputable polling organization? I guess thats a testament to your belief that facts dont matter, just what you think without any real facts.....typical liberal.....

by BuckeyeBlogger 2009-12-19 09:56AM | 0 recs
Re: except of course

Most people would have the critical thinking ability to understand that "only 1% of the country describes itself as moderate" is an absurd and obviously false statement.  You apparently do not.

by Steve M 2009-12-19 10:05AM | 0 recs
Re: except of course

So which is it, the pollsters lie, or the respondents?

by BuckeyeBlogger 2009-12-19 10:35AM | 0 recs
Re: except of course

Neither, it's just that you have no critical thinking ability to actually help you understand what this poll means.

by Steve M 2009-12-19 12:05PM | 0 recs
Re: except of course

So when I read a poll that says the majority of americans oppose gay marriage, I just dont know what I am reading? They really are in favor of it, is that right?

I think the problem here is you lack any ability to see reality. You are so blinded by your own partisan beliefs that anything outside of your reality just has to be a lie. Sad, you actually still believe that your liberal world has any interest to the majority of america.....thats okay you just go is better in your little world I guess..

by BuckeyeBlogger 2009-12-19 01:38PM | 0 recs
Re: except of course

Don't try to change the subject.  Point is, you are adamantly insisting that only 1% of Americans describe themselves as moderate, even though that's clearly a ridiculous thing to believe, because you think you have found a poll that says so.

"Only 1% of Americans describe themselves as moderate." Stop the pissing contest and just think about it.  No, seriously, STOP AND THINK ABOUT IT.  Do you really think that could possibly be true?  "Only 1% of Americans describe themselves as moderate."

by Steve M 2009-12-19 02:43PM | 0 recs
Re: except of course

Again, you are basically saying that one of the most widely cited, reliable polls, done by a bipartisan group, a poll known for is accuracy, is wrong and you are right......yep, you know beter than everyone else....

by BuckeyeBlogger 2009-12-20 06:14AM | 0 recs
Re: except of course

And if America is so liberal why are gay marriage referendums failing?

by BuckeyeBlogger 2009-12-19 08:06AM | 0 recs
Nice Straw man there Buckeye

by ND22 2009-12-19 07:13PM | 0 recs
but the answer your question

lest you think I wouldn't, the answer is because some self-described otherwise very liberal people oppose gay marriage.

See the majority of the African-American community, I'd hardly call them conservative.

by ND22 2009-12-19 07:14PM | 0 recs
Re: Two of the three things here

Your right hey are....along with a thousand more pages of crap.......congress cant follow the simple rule of Keep it simple stupid.....they need to muck everything up.....your just too blind to see...

by BuckeyeBlogger 2009-12-18 02:38PM | 0 recs
I guess you've never seen a real bill in your life

because there are very few bills, even the most conservative ones, that aren't less than a 1,000 pages.

and now you keep changing the reasons you oppose the bill, first it was because the three things you want weren't there, then you conceded they were, but the bill is a thousand pages of "crap" That "crap" being legal language meant to close loopholes so your three things will work.

by ND22 2009-12-18 02:42PM | 0 recs
Re: I guess you've never seen a real bill

Heh. Just the other Enzi of WY was stating on the senate floor that the bill was too short! It needed to be several hundred pages longer because of the 'scale of changes'.

by vecky 2009-12-18 02:48PM | 0 recs
Re: Two of the three things here

Like what crap?

Those three issues you brought up alone are 1700 pages of the current bill.

by vecky 2009-12-18 02:47PM | 0 recs
Re: Healthcare looks done this year

Good idea.  Eliminating state consumer protection laws is necessary so we can have consumer "choice."

by Steve M 2009-12-18 03:20PM | 0 recs
I think it is time the president fires Rahm

But, I don't expect it. I think he is all in for centrist neoliberalism in a national that is moving economic populism. He seems to have fundamental misread the times The world changed with the collapse of Lehman Brothers, and yet, he is still in that pre-Lehman Brothers frame of reference. I thin that event will go down as the day Reaganism died. Rather than having the good sense to put bullet in the brain of the zombie theory of economics, he seems intent on feeding the damn thing.

by bruh3 2009-12-18 02:12PM | 0 recs
that would be smart

but that is not going to happen. I see Obama digging in and not wanting to admit he appointed any of the wrong people.

by desmoinesdem 2009-12-18 02:25PM | 0 recs
Re: that would be smart

I think right now Rahm has successfully placed the President in a bubble of advisors that fit Rahm's political interest The buck stops with the president, but I have to think the level to which he's moved hard right is in part Rahm.

. Whatever else I think of the president (Too centrist, too much like Clinton's pathos about please the right and your enemies and to be liked, etc) , he has never struck me as a stupid man, and some of the policies that he is advocating or has agreed to are just plain stupid in terms of politics.  

The only thing that makes sense is a) the president believes his own hype and b) that Rahm thinks that so long as they have enough money they don't need the base. The problem has been the entire year that they don't get (Rahm more than anyone) that 2009 is not 1994. The issues being discussed are no longer base issues. Even if they were, that's not a good stance to take going into 2010, but they are clearly not base issues. Bailing out Wall Street, private mandates to oligopolies, poorly addressing the jobs economy- I mean what genius told them that these things would go over with the American public generally- must less the base.  The only thing that makes sense to me is that the president believes his own hype. That if he does the right speech no one would pull back the curtains long enough to know what's really going on.

by bruh3 2009-12-18 02:39PM | 0 recs
Re: Healthcare looks done this year

I think it looks done for good. The American people want jobs and jobs only they could care less about HCR at this point.  I think the Senate realizes this and will just let this go claiming they were unable to get to 60.

by jsfox 2009-12-18 02:14PM | 0 recs
no, they have to pass something

even if it's a very scaled-back Medicaid and SCHIP expansion via reconciliation. They must do something.

by desmoinesdem 2009-12-18 02:25PM | 0 recs
Re: no, they have to pass something

small consolation...

by vecky 2009-12-18 02:38PM | 0 recs
Re: no, they have to pass something

it will be like being given a "thanks for participating" prize when you were expecting at least a podium finish.

by vecky 2009-12-18 02:39PM | 0 recs
I'll take it

An SCHIP and Medicaid expansion would help millions of people without being a giant bailout to the industries causing the problems.

If we can pass drug re-importation as a separate bill, so much the better. A lot of the Dems who voted against Dorgan's amendment support the idea but didn't want to blow up the whole bill.

by desmoinesdem 2009-12-18 05:09PM | 0 recs
Re: I'll take it

SCHIP and medicaid are both run by private insurance.  Medicaid is directly contracted out while SCHIP recipients get a choice of plans.

by LordMike 2009-12-18 08:59PM | 0 recs
for what it's worth

Bruce Braley (IA-01) says the current Senate bill wouldn't pass the House, based on conversations he's been having.

by desmoinesdem 2009-12-18 02:26PM | 0 recs
Re: for what it's worth

I don't think the current senate bill will even pass the senate...

by vecky 2009-12-18 02:50PM | 0 recs
Re: Healthcare looks done this year

Sorry, I just went back and read this, and sticking in this part to the post:

[(I know its not quite that succinct 'cause we have a whole WH full of hacks right now who are applying campaigning to the passage of policy-- and no doubt going a bit crazy right now with the dynamics at work)]

--is really not part of the point so I deleted it.

by Jerome Armstrong 2009-12-18 04:07PM | 0 recs
Breaking Jerome: A Bill Introduced Tomorrow AM

in the Senate, apparently with provisions sufficient to attain 60 votes.

Maybe delete the diary--boy a lot of people looking bad in this thread right now. 79-reid-to-unveil-final-offer-on-healthc are-bill-on-saturday-morning

by Davidsfr 2009-12-18 06:19PM | 0 recs
Re: Breaking Jerome: A Bill Introduced Tomorrow AM

Think they'll get there through the snow?

by Jerome Armstrong 2009-12-18 06:23PM | 0 recs
Re: Breaking Jerome: A Bill Introduced Tomorrow AM

They don't need 60 votes tomorrow morning, they just need them at 1am Monday morning (gack!) when the cloture vote actually happens.

I'll wait and see what the bill contains but I am firmly in the "pass something" camp right now.

by Steve M 2009-12-18 06:28PM | 0 recs
Re: Breaking Jerome: A Bill Introduced Tomorrow AM

And that's only the cloture vote on the Managers amendment (Reids amendment). After that there will still be cloture votes on some other amendment (presumably a GOP one) and then the final bill.

We better hope Byrds health holds up. I won't be surprised the if the stress of this...

by vecky 2009-12-18 06:56PM | 0 recs
Re: Breaking Jerome: A Bill Introduced Tomorrow AM

Sen. Byrd is a tough cookie.  Lord knows we don't need another martyr to this health care bill.

As long as the ball keeps moving forward, however slowly, there is the chance of a positive outcome.

by Steve M 2009-12-18 07:02PM | 0 recs
more sausage

I still support this bill, but further concessions will turn me into an opponent.

As for 60 votes, as Lee Corso says--not so fast, my friends.  Try getting Lieberman back in Washington in time during a monumental snowstorm.
I know it's the "Sabbath" but sore "Winnerman" could still sink the bill.  

I'll believe when I see it.  As far as avoiding controversy, the Republicans are going to make up some anyway.  Drop cap and trade, but not immigration, and pass a jobs bill by the end of January.

by esconded 2009-12-18 07:05PM | 0 recs

Lieberman going out of town got Reid the ability to write him out and Snowe in, and they got 60 votes without him.

I highly doubt he doesn't come back...I can't imagine him trying to argue he's right to stay at home in Connecticut cause he doesn't want to vote for a bill.

by ND22 2009-12-18 07:09PM | 0 recs
Re: Breaking Jerome: A Bill Introduced Tomorrow AM

fyi, the post title here is that HCR is not getting done this year, ie, spilling over into next year.

by Jerome Armstrong 2009-12-18 06:58PM | 0 recs
Re: Healthcare looks done this year

I dont believe in God....but THANK YOU JESUS!!

lol, best news Ive heard in a long time. I wasnt thrilled with the House Bill, but at least it was acceptable, the Senate Bill is nothing more than a blank check to the healthcare industry WITH loopholes to screw over consumers.  

by bsavage 2009-12-18 04:23PM | 0 recs
Back to Atheism for you then

cause the up or down vote is coming 7pm Xmas Eve.

Jerome blows it again! Good thing too--no bill really would be disastrous for the democrats, never mind what the polls currently show about public opinion about an issue they no woefully little about.

by Davidsfr 2009-12-18 06:23PM | 0 recs
Re: Back to Atheism for you then

You're cheering for Insurance companies and a bill that has 30% support, great.

by Jerome Armstrong 2009-12-18 06:24PM | 0 recs
Re: Back to Atheism for you then

They in their own delusional reality at this point. The numbers and the nature of the policy does not matter. It is like Bush getting on that ship to declare victory in Iraq. Totally image craft. It is ironic that people are many of the mistakes, and little of success of the last two presidents. They seem to have learned the wrong thing from both.

by bruh3 2009-12-18 09:58PM | 0 recs
Healthcare reform is too hard to do

I had long predicted that this whole effort would crash and burn.  Healthcare reform is simply not possible in this country.  The sooner Democrats realize this, the better.  

by Kent 2009-12-18 06:19PM | 0 recs
Does anyone else find it odd

that Kent mysteriously disappeared around the same time the PUMA trolls reappeared?

by ND22 2009-12-18 06:21PM | 0 recs
All the more credit to Obama then

because as the clock strikes midnight on Christmas Day, both the House and Senate will have passed bills. Too hard for most, but not the Barack!

by Davidsfr 2009-12-18 06:25PM | 0 recs

What the whining, sniveling f**ck does this have to do with anything, Obambi or otherwise?

by TexasDarling 2009-12-18 06:56PM | 0 recs
That is highly doubtful

Lieberman has already headed back to CT, in advance of the blizzard. Getting 60 votes to enable some kind of bill (it's still being worked on, apparently) to pass the Senate is highly unlikely at this point.

Apparently even Mother Nature, or I should say, Divine Providence, realizes that this is a bad bill. Not to mention Governor Dean, and a host of others.

by BJJ Fighter 2009-12-18 07:06PM | 0 recs
Mary Landrieu thinks it;s a great bill

and you love your Mary Landrieu, isn't that the type of Democrat you want? She loves the bill.

by ND22 2009-12-18 07:08PM | 0 recs
Re: Mary Landrieu thinks it;s a great bill

She loves it because her state got $300 million dollars. Granted that's a downright reasonable request compared to some others.

by vecky 2009-12-18 07:36PM | 0 recs
Jesus be praised!

Only He could have killed this Satanic monstrosity of a bill!  Blessed be.

by JJE 2009-12-19 03:53AM | 0 recs
Re: Healthcare reform is too hard to do

it will have to get fixed at some point, because it really will bankrupt the country someday.

hopefully, the fix comes BEFORE the bankruptcy

by jeopardy 2009-12-18 07:09PM | 0 recs
Re: Healthcare reform is too hard to do

That is what people have been saying for years and nothing ever gets done.  

by Kent 2009-12-18 07:25PM | 0 recs
Re: Healthcare looks done this year

1) who cares.  Only upstate/kent thinks christmas is a deadline.

2) Singularly vapid post, even for jerome.

3) voila, dip shit. Wallah is not a word.

by lojasmo 2009-12-18 07:44PM | 0 recs
Who cares?

Who cares that we probably failed on our last chance to ever get healthcare reform?

by Kent 2009-12-18 08:29PM | 0 recs
dip shit?

I'm really looking forward to having the new platform. its got a great banning feature that lets you select the amount of time the user is banned. Can't wait.

btw, Howard Dean is right.

by Jerome Armstrong 2009-12-18 08:45PM | 0 recs


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