Liveblogging Warren and McCain

Obama is done, and McCain is joining him on stage. So here is the first shot of Obama and McCain together since the Manchester January debates, and it lasted less than 30 seconds. Neither looked completely at ease, although I'd say Obama seemed a tad more stand-offish.

Warren is about to start with McCain. Given his question to Obama re: what is your greatest moral failing and Obama's striking candor about selfishness and drugs, it will be interesting to see if we get similar candor from McCain about his first wife.

9:03: Who are the three wisest people that you know and would rely on? General Petraeus, who he gives a rather serious and sober paeon to. Here's a curveball: Democrat Rep. John Lewis, Civil Rights veteran. And Meg Whitman, the CEO of eBay. (Obama answered this before I started blogging this, and joked about Warren himself, talked about his family, then named Nunn, Lugar, Kennedy, and for diversity, Coburn.) A well articulated-answer, but a little too somber given Obama's overly personal performance. This is an audience that wants personal.

9:10: Here it comes!!! This'll be good. What is your greatest moral failure, and what is the greatest moral failure of America? McCain: "My greatest moral failing, and I have been a very imperfect person, is the failure of my first marriage." Says nothing else. America's greatest failure is devoting ourselves to individualism. After 9/11, we (Bush, not we as a nation, Bush! say it, dammit!) shouldn't have said go shopping, but we should have expanded the Peace Corps and service. Goes on to quote Warren, "This is not about you."

I hate to say this, but he handled that answer well. He admitted to his failed marriage so won't get hit for ducking it with torture or anything like that, but managed to not elaborate and put the focus on service. Most independents and undecideds probably don't know the marriage's details, so bearing that in mind, his focus on service did gel well with the question since hey, he's right, we are a selfish, individualistic society not focused on the common good or on public service. But, I think Obama did a better job by talking about Christian obligation and Matthew 25. That's what these voters want to hear, and it's more personal. McCain gets a positive here, but not nearly the positive Obama got.

9:10: What have you changed positions on that's not a flip flop? McCain: "Offshore drilling! We've got to drill now, and we've got drill here!" What is this, a Harley convention? Makes his first joke of the evening by impersonating Gov. Ah-nuld's accent.

Energy never came up with Obama. Ok, it did, but as a five second throwaway at the end. McCain scores big political points by elaborating on energy. He lists everything we need - solar, wind, nuclear, nuclear, nuclear - and salutes the French. But I really, really wish we could get someone to actually educate the public about offshore drilling. Dammit.

9:12: What's the most gut-wrenching decision you've ever had to make? Tells the story of choosing to stay in the POW camp when they offered to let the Admiral's kid go home. I won't sum up the answer, but it is personal, and it is moving. The honor and strenght McCain showed as a POW is admirable, and not in a thirty second way. Read his old US News account, admire him, respect him - and then vote against him.

9:14: First commercial break. So far, I'd say McCain is doing a good job, but not nearly as good a job as Obama did. Religion has only come up once with McCain - just now, he said his time as a POW took a lot of prayer. Obama was much more open and forthcoming about faith, tying it into several policy positions and thought processes by this point. Obama has also been very personal and chatty, wheras except for his final POW answer, McCain has been stiff and somber. If this is Obama vs. McCain for a complexly conservative crowd, so far, McCain has fended him off, but the challenge is strong.

9:18: What does faith mean to you? "It means I'm saved and forgiven." Tells another POW story of worshipping with another soldier. Very moving, but more personal than faithful. It's clear he doesn't mind being personal, but that he doesn't want to talk about faith. McCain wins with those not paying attention who are moved by stories of courage; Obama wins with everyone actually paying attention to the substance of faith.

9:21: Abortion. McCain is pro-life, human rights start at conception. Gay marriage. Man and a woman. Wow, short and sweet. McCain: are we going to get to the Courts, or do I need to bring it up now? Warren: we'll get to it. But, was the CA Supreme Court wrong? McCain: Yes. I'm a federalist, I believe that this is a state issue, and I hope AZ will "Recognize the unique status of marriage between a man a woman." But this doesn't mean they can't enter into legal agreements (is that civil union?). I would only favor a Constitutional amendment if a federal court said my state had to do what other states did.

9:23: Embryonic stem cells. McCain says it is a great dilemma "for those of us in the pro-life community." As someone who is pro-life, I would say no, it's not, those embroys would be unused and discarded anyway. But at least he is pro-research.

9:24: Does evil exist? Do we ignore it, contain it, or defeat it? McCain: "Defeat it... If I have to follow Osama bin Laden to the gates of hell, I will." The answer from the first GOP primary debate, but without the weird smile. Goes on to decry "radical Islamic extremism" (hey, he dropped that awful unword Islamofacism, hooray). Personally, I like Obama's social justice answer much better, but I think McCain's national security answer will score more points with independents.

9:26: Which existing justices would you not have nominated? McCain: In a slow and measured tone, "With all due respect, Justice Ginsburg, Justice Breyer, Justice Souter, and Justice Stevens." The next President will have two or three vacancies. We need justices who will not legislate from the bench (so you wouldn't nominate Scalia, then? phoo), and he's proud of Alito and Roberts.

9:29: Faith based organizations. McCain says New Orleans wouldn't be where it was without the faith groups, and I've got to say, he's dead on, he's never said anything truer. But be that as it may, it was an uneventful answer with the angry edge in his voice he's had all night long. It'll look good in print to the faith crowd, but nothing big for the viewers.

9:30: Do you support merit pay? And don't give me a stump speech on education. Big Mac: Yes, and find the bad ones another line of work. Warren: Wow, these are short answers, we'll have time for a poker game! Big Mac: Vouchers, charter schools, homeschooling, choices, we need it! Charter schools work! Me: Yes, they do. I graduated from one. But didn't Pastor Warren tell you no stump speech? Pastor Warren, aren't you going to stop him? No? Oh well. Anyways, it's one of McCain's best answers of the evening, and actually shows some domestic policy detail, something he's not known for.

9:32: Warren: On taxes, define rich. Give me a number. Big Mac: Some of the richest people I've ever known in my life are unhappy. Rich should be defined as a home, a good job, an education, and the ability to hand a good world to our children. "I don't want to take any money from the rich, I want everybody to get rich!" Small businessmen who work 16 hours a day, 7 days a week are not rich. Don't raise their taxes. Let's give every family a tax credit for children, a health care tax credit, blahblahblah. I was a McCain guy in 2000, when my political identity was only just starting to form, but now even *I* want to vomit.

He spins off his answer into an attack on spending - $3 million to study bear DNA in Montana. "Now, I don't know if that was a paternity issue or a criminal issue." Yeah, and we spend $10 billion a week in Iraq. Where's your fiscal responsibility now, old man? $3 million ain't going to balance the budget. I'm the young person you say you want to hand a better world to. And I think you're full of it when it comes to budget politics. Your heart's in the right place, but so was the Scarecrow's.

9:37: Security questions, but I have to take the dog outside.

9:41: Warren: What is worth committing American lives for? Big Mac: freedom. Quotes Reagan. American blood is precious. No other nation has ever shed its blood for other peoples' freedom. We won the Cold War because of our ideology, and we defeated communism, and we can defeat radical Islam. Can we talk about Georgia? No, Warren moves on. When would you commit troops? Genocide in Darfur, or mass killings in Georgia? McCain: Our obligation is to stop genocide. We messed up in Rwanda. Cindy was just there with Hucakbee and Frist (he doesn't mention that Daschle and Podesta were also on the trip, it was through the ONE Campaign). We've got to martial the world's forces to not make the same mistake in Rwanda. We can supply the logistics, equipment, and aid. "We've got to be committed to never saying never again, again."

And then Warren throws him a bone and asks about Georgia, something he did not do with Obama. Politically, McCain does a good job balancing compassion (and prayer) for Georgia with toughness against Russia. An appealing answer.

9:49: I had great respect for him until the General started this year, but right now, McCain is boring me.

9:50: Warren's personal question about orphans. Could we do a PEPFAR, an emergency plan, for the 150 million orphans? They need families! Big Mac: I think we have to make adoption a lot easier in this country, that's why so many people go to other countries. TR was the first modern American president to talk about adoption (he was also the first modern American president), and I promise this is my last story. (Talks about his adopted daughter.) As an adopted child myself, I love this answer, BUT, it does not address Warren's question, since it address US orphans but not the global issue.

9:52: Warren: Why do you want to be President? Hamburger: I want to inspire Americans to serve, and to put their country first like I've always done in the Navy and in Congress. Our best days are ahead. America wants hope and optimism. I reach across the aisle, and I want to do that. But you know, he kind of sounds angry as he says that.

9:53: Warren: What would you say to people who object to me asking you these questions in a church? McCain: I want to be in every venue in America talking about these issues, and America was founded on Judeo-Christian values (got to love Jefferson's Bible, right, McCain?). That wraps it up.

Tags: John McCain, Rick Warren (all tags)




I would be so disappointed if this man becomes president. JESUS H CHRIST.

by highgrade 2008-08-16 05:05PM | 0 recs
Re: Liveblogging Warren and McCain

Can't argue with McCain there, his first divorce really was a great personal moral failure. And the way he expanded a criticism of individualism into expanding the Peace Corps and service is politically savvy, specific, and true.

I'm afraid he bested Obama on this question.

by souvarine 2008-08-16 05:11PM | 0 recs
Re: Liveblogging Warren and McCain

I don't think he "bested" Obama at all.  They both brought up their worst personal skeletons, but McCain gave what was essentially a one word, very terse answer about his leaving his sick first wife, and Obama really talked about the ramifications of his drug use, and what he has done since.

by hello world 2008-08-16 05:16PM | 0 recs
Re: Liveblogging Warren and McCain

I agree with both of you. McCain's answer was great and politically savvy, but the first part was terse wheras Obama was open and personal, so points to both but more points to Obama.

by Nathan Empsall 2008-08-16 05:18PM | 0 recs
Re: Liveblogging Warren and McCain

I mentioned this in the Obama thread, personal drug use may be a political skeleton but it hardly qualifies as a big moral failure. Actions that involve only oneself do not have much moral content. Abandoning them, as people give up various habits during Lent, may provide moral education, but the habits themselves are not really "moral failings."

There are people for whom addictive drug use has real moral implications, an earlier commenter pointed out George Bush's alcoholism, but Obama's casual drug use does not qualify.

by souvarine 2008-08-16 05:27PM | 0 recs
Re: Liveblogging Warren and McCain

I think, given the culture of death and violence that often surrounds drugs, they can be a moral failing. But the real moral issue was the reason he did the drugs, not the drugs themselves - that reason being selfishness.

by Nathan Empsall 2008-08-16 05:45PM | 0 recs
Re: Liveblogging Warren and McCain

The answer was a travesty. He just couldn't think of anything he ever did wrong, so he said he did cocaine a few times. Not that he threw Grandma under the bus, that he sat and watched GD Amerikkka, that he didn't care that people were freezing in buildings in his area. Just so self centered, as usual. Me, me, me.

by Marjoriest 2008-08-16 06:24PM | 0 recs
Re: Liveblogging Warren and McCain

You're either an idiot, or a republican, or both.

Either way I don't like you and I doubt too many other people who hang out here do either.

by JDF 2008-08-17 01:13PM | 0 recs
Gut Wrenching

But always remember, McCain is reluctant to talk about his POW experience.

by molly bloom 2008-08-16 05:15PM | 0 recs
Re: Gut Wrenching

Yeah, he's very reluctantly bringing it up every time he possibly can.

by hello world 2008-08-16 05:18PM | 0 recs
Re: Gut Wrenching

John Kerry was very silent for decades, then discussed it in the campaign. McCain is opening up, but it takes time.

by Nathan Empsall 2008-08-16 05:18PM | 0 recs
Re: Liveblogging Warren and McCain

ok so for the entire hour McCain will work in the POW thing wont him

man his campaign prepped him good.

no matter what they say tell a story about your POW days

by TruthMatters 2008-08-16 05:18PM | 0 recs
Milking the POW thing for all

its worth.

Brings a tear to your eye, doesn't it.

by missliberties 2008-08-16 05:18PM | 0 recs
Re: Milking the POW thing for all

Brings reflux to my esophogas.

by Bush Bites 2008-08-16 05:21PM | 0 recs
Re: Milking the POW thing for all

I don't blame him. It's a huge part of his past. Obama talks about organizing churches, and McCain talks about what he did at the same time. If we're not asking Obama to ignore his youth, we can't ask it of McCain.

by Nathan Empsall 2008-08-16 05:26PM | 0 recs
Re: Milking the POW thing for all

No. It's just not. McCain running on his experience in a POW camp is the equivalent of FDR running on his polio.

by vcalzone 2008-08-16 05:33PM | 0 recs
I'll have to remember that one.

McCain running on his experience in a POW camp is the equivalent of FDR running on his polio.

by Bush Bites 2008-08-16 05:41PM | 0 recs
Re: Milking the POW thing for all

Because FDR totally chose to have polio and kept it when the doctor offered to cure him. Because his polio was totally in service to the US.

by Nathan Empsall 2008-08-16 05:45PM | 0 recs
Re: Milking the POW thing for all

Perhaps I'm skewed, because I believe that heroism and honor in the face of pain and suffering is not a character trait lacking in mankind. There are thousands and thousands of heroes in our nation's military. There are thousands of heroes outside of the military. There are millions upon millions of individuals who gladly sacrifice themselves for the group.

BUT... Only an asshole keeps wearing his heroism like a merit badge and eventually wields it as a cudgel. There is no honor or nobility to be found in pride or opportunism.

by vcalzone 2008-08-16 07:31PM | 0 recs
Re: Milking the POW thing for all

Fair enough.

by Nathan Empsall 2008-08-16 07:35PM | 0 recs
Running on personal tragedy
To be begin with, Transplanted Texan, I want to say you gave two great accounts of the Warren question and answer sessions, but I believe you missed the point of vcalzones initial comment:
"No. It's just not. McCain running on his experience in a POW camp is the equivalent of FDR running on his polio."
It would have been better phrased as:
"No. It's just not. McCain running on his experience in a POW camp is the equivalent of FDR running on his TRIUMPH OVER polio."
McCain's POW past and FDR's polio were personal tragedy that the two men successfully over came, but FDR chose not to run on his personal tragedy, in fact he went to great lengths to disguise the fact that he was in a chair.
It will forever be debated if FDR could have gotten more votes had he ran on his ability to accomplish so despite his polio, but the reason why FDR didn't run on his triuph over polio, is because he didn't want voters to think that he was defined by his personal tragedy.
It says so much about McCain that he says so much about his time as a POW in North Viet Nam, because in his head he is still stuck there and believes the war against North Viet Nam can still be won. Everything in McCain's rhetoric points to the fact that he is still fighting; his calling Putin "KGB", his desire to reignite the Cold War over Georgia, and his position to win the War In Iraq at all cost.
It give me great pause to think that a man who is still fighting the Viet Nam War wants access to "the button"!  
by CommentsOfReason 2008-08-17 02:08AM | 0 recs
Re: Milking the POW thing for all

I agree with Wes Clark that McCain's service does not qualify him to be President, but that doesn't mean we should so quickly dismiss it.

by Nathan Empsall 2008-08-16 05:46PM | 0 recs
Re: Milking the POW thing for all
McCain WAS brave. He HAS had life experiences that count. He has done a lot for America.
Obama has only looked out for himself. Can you imagine him staying in the prison camp when he didn't have to? Can you imagine him in a prison camp? Can you imagine him in the army/air force? Can you imagine him dirty?
by Marjoriest 2008-08-16 06:28PM | 0 recs
Re: Milking the POW thing for all


Glad I could clear that up for you.

by Ernst 2008-08-16 06:37PM | 0 recs
We should not dismiss McCain's POW past, but we should wonder why McCain is running on his POW past.
Is he seeking revenge? Does he wants a second chance at defeating communism? Does he wants to refight the Cold War? Does he want to spend as much blood and treasure in Iraq (and most likely Iran) that we spent in Indochina?
A man still fighting the Viet Nam War in his head, sings "Bomb Iran" on a public stage, jokes about Persian genocide through nicotine poisoning, calls Putin "KGB", wants to throw Russia out of the G8, says Americans are "all Georgians" in an obvious effort to reignite the Cold War, promises "more wars", and says troops could stay in Iraq for a "hundred years", should definitely not be trusted with the world's largest arsenal of nuclear weapons.
by CommentsOfReason 2008-08-17 02:26AM | 0 recs
Re: True

Putin is ex-KGB, he was a colonel and never abandoned that mindset... but the rest, in both your comments, are good points.

by Nathan Empsall 2008-08-17 05:38PM | 0 recs
Re: Milking the POW thing for all

Actually, FDR certainly wasn't above using his polio as a narrative to further political career.

And seeing that their ill fortune created physical handicaps which makes/made campaigning a far more difficult and challenging task then normal, it is worth asking if both aren't/weren't justified in using their ill fortune to further their political career to offset those physical handicaps.

by Ernst 2008-08-16 06:32PM | 0 recs
Re: Milking the POW thing for all

After all in the end, such comments only go so far. The narrative needs to lay a link as to why he'd make a better president. He's yet failed to do so. He's just used it to avoid asking difficult questions. That isn't going to win him the presidency.

After all Bob dole also lost the use of his arm during exemplary military service and he still lost. As did most military veterans running against people with a less pronounced military service record.

by Ernst 2008-08-16 06:43PM | 0 recs
Re: Milking the POW thing for all

See my new remarks above. I have no issue with considering those traits to be character testaments. Certainly they influence one's character in a positive way.

But McCain has decided he can mention it anytime he feels it will benefit him politically. He uses the stories of other men who have died and suffered massive trauma for his own benefit. I'm not saying that they would be angered by it necessarily, but it is certainly not something that demonstrates his own honor or dignity.

by vcalzone 2008-08-16 07:38PM | 0 recs
Re: Liveblogging Warren and McCain

Wow, look at McCain with the impatience for those pesky questions regarding morality.  Very smooth John.

by hello world 2008-08-16 05:21PM | 0 recs
whatever happened to the mccain

that said roe v. wade shouldn't be overturned? Hellloooo MSM!

by highgrade 2008-08-16 05:21PM | 0 recs
Re: Liveblogging Warren and McCain

Can it really be any more clear that McCain lost his faith in God years ago, IF he ever had it to begin with? There is no passion, no joy in his voice. This is work for him, and it comes across as such.

by vcalzone 2008-08-16 05:22PM | 0 recs
Re: Liveblogging Warren and McCain

COMPLETELY dismissive of the entire point of the night. Go, go McCain! Beat those points so loudly and often that it becomes COMPLETELY apparent that you have no thoughts of your own.

by vcalzone 2008-08-16 05:26PM | 0 recs
Re: Liveblogging Warren and McCain

Waiting with baited breath on Pastor Rick to actually call out McCain on giving NOTHING BUT A STUMP SPEECH.

by JFMDC 2008-08-16 05:25PM | 0 recs
My concern

Obama answers things in verbose explanations weighing the sides of the debate.

McCain answers with "yes, I'm pro life" "gay marriage is wrong"

I just worry that the average low-information voter out there has a hard time understanding Obama, has a pretty easy time understanding McCain.

by bobestes 2008-08-16 05:26PM | 0 recs
Re: My concern

Yeah, McCain speaks in soundbites.

I assume that will help him with this group.

by Bush Bites 2008-08-16 05:28PM | 0 recs
Re: My concern

McCain has opinions. Obama doesn't - he just wants to please everyone - and in so doing, pleases no one.

by Marjoriest 2008-08-16 06:37PM | 0 recs
Re: My concern

McCain has opinions.  Obama has ideas.  Obama is 1000 more thoughtful than McCain.  I love the idea of a President who can think.

by smoker1 2008-08-16 07:51PM | 0 recs
Re: My concern

Obama has thoughts. You have blatant seething hatred and possible some other even less savory things.

by JDF 2008-08-17 01:17PM | 0 recs
Re: Liveblogging Warren and McCain

What's funny is that we could have done this liveblogging thing during Obama's speech. McCain is giving the most generic, predictable answers imaginable.

by vcalzone 2008-08-16 05:29PM | 0 recs
Re: Liveblogging Warren and McCain

McCain's getting big applause lines with some of his answers since he's giving simple answers that this audience will mostly like, but to me, it's starting to become clear that John McCain is doing more to destroy his own "maverick" brand by his own answers and positions.  He's giving standard, GOP talking-points at every turn, and even at one point said how "proud" he was of Bush.

McCain's been swallowed whole by the far-right, and it's pretty clear at this point that he's pretty comfortable with that.  He's a sounding board at this point, and that's not the McCain that so many people out there think still exists.

by hello world 2008-08-16 05:32PM | 0 recs
Re: Liveblogging Warren and McCain

That tax question was a perfect example.  He wants everyone to "be rich", and won't tax anyone.

His entire answer was simply a filibuster of feel-good talkingpoints to keep from discussing actual concrete policy.  The glibness probably goes over with some, but even the smallest amount of critical scrutiny to that answer blows it to hell.  McCain is all bluster and talkingpoints at this point.  That's why his unmonitored townhalls proposal deal was a trap.  He would have been all glib and no substance.  You need a legitimate monitor to cut through the crap.  

I can't wait for the actual head to head debates.

by hello world 2008-08-16 05:41PM | 0 recs
Re: Liveblogging Warren and McCain

if anyone says his "how about $5 million" as a number for rich

was smart? I don't care if he was joking or not, How about $5 million when people are struggling right now? just doesn't seem smart

by TruthMatters 2008-08-16 05:35PM | 0 recs
Re: Liveblogging Warren and McCain

"I don't want to take any money from the rich, I want everybody to get rich!"


What a bunch of malarky.

Will the evangelicals buy this dodge?

by Bush Bites 2008-08-16 05:36PM | 0 recs
Re: Liveblogging Warren and McCain

Who's rich? The more important quality would be economic security. I'd say the person who can handle those setbacks in life like grave illness, job loss, or a 10% increase in their marginal tax rate with little or no worry about the economic considerations has economic security.

Read Obama's economic plan. It's good.


by QTG 2008-08-16 05:41PM | 0 recs
Re: Liveblogging Warren and McCain

On Georgia, 'it has an oil pipeline that until now Russia did not control' - did Russia take control over this pipeline in the last hour or something?  

We need a president who will not shape foreign policy around personal relations - McCain's lauding of Saakashvili (going to US schools) seems too much like Bush's dependence on Musharraf to me.

by Mr DC 2008-08-16 05:53PM | 0 recs
Jefferson's Bible?

I didn't understand that comment: What did you mean?

by Bush Bites 2008-08-16 05:54PM | 0 recs
Re: Jefferson's Bible?

Thomas Jefferson once cut out every verse of the Gospels he didn't like, leading a rather thin document indeed. How's that for a Christian Founding Father?

by Nathan Empsall 2008-08-16 06:18PM | 0 recs
Re: Liveblogging Warren and McCain

McCain did an extremely effective job of heartstring-tugging when he shrewdly keep bringing up his POW experience. He clearly won the night-no question about it.

by handsomegent 2008-08-16 06:02PM | 0 recs
Re: Liveblogging Warren and McCain

Great to hear. Next time I have a job interview, I'll talk about my sick cat.

by vcalzone 2008-08-16 06:05PM | 0 recs
Re: Liveblogging Warren and McCain

Well one of the problems that Obama is going to have is the notion that all we've heard is "what a great speaker he is"-"such a dynamic orator"  blah, blah.  But that means expectations are set so low for McCain that he wins just by staying even.

by handsomegent 2008-08-16 06:15PM | 0 recs
Re: Liveblogging Warren and McCain

No, when you lower expectations, you have to match up. Otherwise, you just lose more quickly.

by vcalzone 2008-08-16 06:29PM | 0 recs
Re: Liveblogging Warren and McCain

I don't think so. Bush was criticized as a bumbling fool.  But by at least holding his own the MEDIA proclaimed him the winner of at least 2 of those 2000 debates.  Gore had the image of the superior intellect.  Now after the first debate I remember that every immediate poll by every network had Gore winning. But after the chattering class had its say (they all became theatrical critics) it was felt around the country that Bush had won.  I think Bush won the election in the days following that first debate.

by handsomegent 2008-08-16 06:36PM | 0 recs
Re: Liveblogging Warren and McCain

Gore didn't have anywhere near the skills or strategy Obama did. Nor did he have the same political climate. If I remember correctly, the prevailing narrative was that they were exactly alike on most issues.

by vcalzone 2008-08-16 07:41PM | 0 recs
Re: Liveblogging Warren and McCain

And as odd as this may sound, Bush has FAR better oration and communication skills than John McCain.

by vcalzone 2008-08-16 07:42PM | 0 recs
Re: Liveblogging Warren and McCain

Who were thought of as exactly alike-Gore and Bush? Gore was considered far superior to Bush who couldn't seem to string 3 sentences together. This game is all about expectations and I say that Obama's will be so high that McCain will look good (just like Bush did)if he manages to perform at the minimum level of competence.

by handsomegent 2008-08-16 08:08PM | 0 recs
Re: Liveblogging Warren and McCain

See, listening to people like you loses elections. If our candidate is a much better speaker than the GOP, you say it means we'll be doomed. If our candidate is a much worse speaker than the GOP, you say it means we'll be doomed. So why are we even bothering to run?

by vcalzone 2008-08-16 08:47PM | 0 recs
Re: Liveblogging Warren and McCain

I didn't say doomed-I said that there has been so much "Obama is a great speaker" talk that no one will expect him to lose a debate and if McCain shows what he showed last night the media will spin the aftermath as a victory for him.

by handsomegent 2008-08-17 08:46AM | 0 recs
Re: Liveblogging Warren and McCain

If by "no question about it you" you mean "in my opinion that many others won't share" then you are correct.

McSame might have gained some funy votes, but he lost just as many independent votes with his generic GOP answers.  

That POW shit was forced as hell by the way.

by deepee 2008-08-16 06:17PM | 0 recs
Re: Liveblogging Warren and McCain

I'm certain that even the usually Obama-adoring media will be promoting tonight as a McCain victory.  Read Bill Schneider's blog on CNN.  Again one of the difficulties Obama will face is being a victim of his own success.  We've heard so often that Obama is such a wizard with words in contrast to the doddering old fool McCain. Well that means if McCain can get by with a few quips and not drool over himself-he wins.

by handsomegent 2008-08-16 06:28PM | 0 recs
Re: Liveblogging Warren and McCain
McCain won, hands down. Obama stuttered, answered many questions poorly and hummed and hawed his way through the questions. McCain had a lot of answers that I did not agree with, but he at least had firm opinions.
The '3 people I would like to ask for advice' was the worst. Mechelle? Grandma? Good Lord.... he would have to go underbus to find Grandma. Do you really want angry Mechelle and Grandma to be running the country?
by Marjoriest 2008-08-16 06:44PM | 0 recs
Re: Liveblogging Warren and McCain

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that your opinion grows more and more useless, considering that it is apparent it will always remain the same no matter what happens.

by vcalzone 2008-08-16 07:01PM | 0 recs
I think you're right, but

I also think you are a troll. It's easy to win the night when the crowd agrees with you on everything already.  The equivalent of McCain coming to YearlyKos to debate Obama.

by ttjackson 2008-08-16 06:22PM | 0 recs
Re: I think you're right, but

So you DO agree he won the night?

by handsomegent 2008-08-16 06:29PM | 0 recs
Yes, did you not read

my previous comment?

by ttjackson 2008-08-16 06:30PM | 0 recs
Do you agree that it was

his home turf of social conservatives?

by ttjackson 2008-08-16 06:30PM | 0 recs
Re: Do you agree that it was

Yes he had the home team advantage. But he was surprisingly spry in his answers-including that quip about France.  And let's face it--when you're going to bring up how you were let out of your cell on Xmas morning and your comrade drew a cross on the ground-Hollywood couldn't have come up with a bigger tearjerker.

by handsomegent 2008-08-16 06:40PM | 0 recs
I'm glad you were pleased, but

you won't be when Obama doesn't pick Hillary.  Maybe you'll just blog on that poor excuse for a site, Hillaryis44, then.

by ttjackson 2008-08-16 07:03PM | 0 recs
Re: I'm glad you were pleased, but

Since Hillary adds the most strength to the ticket, maybe you won't be pleased when Obama's stubbornness costs him the election.

by handsomegent 2008-08-16 07:12PM | 0 recs
Re: Actually

Oh right--the world was in such terrible shape the last time a Clinton was in office.

by handsomegent 2008-08-16 07:19PM | 0 recs
Re: Oh right

Hey, two for one, remember.  Also remember that the only statistic that did NOT improve during Clinton's tenure in office was Ronald Reagan's I.Q. That still, unfortunately, was stuck in the minus column.

by handsomegent 2008-08-16 07:29PM | 0 recs
Re: Look

Ridiculous.  It should be obvious to even you that they would have the same type of people in her administration as in his. It should be also obvious that they have a very similar style to match their similar political views. I've never seen a married couple act as a unit as they do. But the Obama lovers (taking their cue from him) will be just like our friends the Republicans and never concide how remarkable the Clinton era was-why, because that would have reminded the voters in the primaries of how good we had it.

by handsomegent 2008-08-16 08:15PM | 0 recs
Re: Not to nag on this

NAFTA or no NAFTA there were 22 million non-farm payroll jobs created under the Clinton administration (a record), plus surpluses, plus bslanaced budgets, plus the rate of unemployment cut almost in half 7.5% to 3.9%.. I like telling my Republican friends that the only thing that didn't improve was Reagan's I.Q.

by handsomegent 2008-08-17 08:43AM | 0 recs
Re: I think you're right, but

McCain? You mean John McCain was at the Rick Warren event tonight? I didn't see him there. I saw an old guy who looked a bit like him, but nothing that guy said is even remotely similar to John McCain's positions. John McCain would never pander to the religious right. Just Google his comments about Falwell and Robertson. Nope, the Maverick would never bow to these evangelicals like that guy did tonight. I'm pretty sure that guy was George Bush in a John McCain mask.

by RocStar 2008-08-16 06:33PM | 0 recs
Re: Cue the speech

I thinks tonight's forum has gotten the Obama Fan Club's stingers out of joint. Cue the excuse that it was McCain's crowd.  Gee, I remember hearing how the "born agains" couldn't stand McCain and wanted Huckabee Hound, Romney, or would even prefer (GASP) pro-choice Guiliani.  This was a conservative crowd, yes, but McCain was witty and shrewd in his presentation.

by handsomegent 2008-08-16 07:17PM | 0 recs
Re: They can't stand McCain

Then Obama shouldn't have accepted the offer and nobody would have paid any attention.

by handsomegent 2008-08-16 07:31PM | 0 recs
Re: They can't stand McCain

Besides I thought that Obama was the one who can appeal to the Republicans, remember.

by handsomegent 2008-08-16 07:32PM | 0 recs
Re: Not all Republicans

Well that certainly is not currently reflected in the polls.

by handsomegent 2008-08-16 07:46PM | 0 recs
Re: yes we know

Are you serious?  McCain is getting 90% of registered Republicans, but the Democratic savior who would "unite us" is only getting between 77-80% of registered Democrats.

by handsomegent 2008-08-16 07:52PM | 0 recs
Re: They can't stand McCain

Yeah, nobody would be eager to paint Obama as afraid of someone as politically mild as Rick Warren. Nobody at all.

by vcalzone 2008-08-16 07:44PM | 0 recs
Re: Nobody would've payed attention?

Oh, so the the one who is against politics as usual went to avoid an attack ad.  Sounds like a political calculation to me.

by handsomegent 2008-08-16 07:48PM | 0 recs
Re: how is a political calculation

Oh, but Obama is as pure as the driven snow-so unadorned with political considerations-or so we've been told.  He doesn't think in terms of politics.  A quaint notion that will seem even more ridiculous when he dumps on Hillary for Bayh or Kaine.

by handsomegent 2008-08-16 07:54PM | 0 recs
Re: how is a political calculation

you and the major are certainly competing for biggest jackass.

Go to Hillaryis44 and spew your trash.

by JDF 2008-08-17 01:25PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama: Lord washes away my sins?

That is the foundation of Protestantism, actually. That you don't even have to do that penance, if you are truly sorry and ask God for forgiveness, he will forgive you. No Hail Marys necessary.

by vcalzone 2008-08-16 06:04PM | 0 recs
Re: So not as crazy as I thought

Yes, you can. Why do you think Christian leaders have prison ministries? Why do you think convicts convert? If you do not renounce God, any sin can be forgiven.

Of course, that's by God. The religious right will still fry your ass when it comes to government.

by vcalzone 2008-08-16 06:40PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama: Lord washes away my sins?

He did. For me, an Anglo-Catholic who hangs out and lives with evangelicals, it invokes thoughts of baptism rather than confession.

by Nathan Empsall 2008-08-16 06:19PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama: Lord washes away my sins?

Washed in the blood of the lamb. Yup yup.

by vcalzone 2008-08-16 07:40PM | 0 recs
Re: Liveblogging Warren and McCain

And with that "The Maverick" is no more. Wow. I...just, wow. So I guess we can take Ridge off the short list.

By the way, before you judge my comment, just remember I was a POW so I can do whatever I want. Just ask Sean Hannity.

by RocStar 2008-08-16 06:28PM | 0 recs


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