Obama gets out of Trinity

Breaking (via the balcony): Barack Obama drops a bomb, he's resigned his membership from the Trinity United Church of Christ.

Update [2008-5-31 20:23:18 by Jerome Armstrong]:Via CNN: Obama goes live talking about it. Those among us that said this should have happened back in March, along with throwing Wright under the bus, can take solace in the fact that Obama finally got around to doing what needed to be done.

Tags: 2008 election (all tags)

Comments

237 Comments

First

already diaried

by Al Rodgers 2008-05-31 02:27PM | 0 recs
Re: First

He's learning! By gosh....

He's been watchin' all the best: Reagan, Bush II, Nixon and he's learned.

Once you've wrung every bit of good for yourself from your supporters why...

Under Da Bus with 'em!

Joe must be sooooo proud.
.

by Pericles 2008-05-31 04:11PM | 0 recs
but the question now remains...

...will people shut up about it?

That is what I would like to know.

by DawnG 2008-05-31 04:24PM | 0 recs
That's a BIG NO!

Shut up about 20 years of this person's life - formidable years - when he even made the decision to school his precious children in this hatred?

What a fool.  The ammunition is already loaded in the cannons.

Duck!  Run for cover!

by CoyoteCreek 2008-05-31 04:32PM | 0 recs
That's no way to talk about Bill Clinton

We can't hold Hillary accountable for every sin Bill committed during the last 20 years!

that's wrong!

by Al Rodgers 2008-05-31 04:55PM | 0 recs
Re: That's no way to talk about Bill Clinton

except of course you do, here on dkos on redstat, on LGF on freeperville, your kind loves to bring that, just had a couple of your type here today with that stuff. so your poor pitiful me act really does not wash.

by trytobereal 2008-05-31 04:59PM | 0 recs
what "kind" is that.

because I didn't realize you actually KNEW us.

I don't blame Hilary for the sins of Bill, she's got enough of her own.  But even I would vote for her if she were the nominee.  But she's not.

by DawnG 2008-05-31 08:28PM | 0 recs
Hey!

Don't hate the player.

by dMarx 2008-05-31 10:50PM | 0 recs
Hell no....

it'll Obama was for Wright, Pleglar, Rezko, Trinity, before he was against them. I could also see McCain and Co questioning what Obama really believes if all his 20 year relationships means nothing.

It'll be a really fun summer.

by cosbo 2008-05-31 04:34PM | 0 recs
you're right - $5.00 a gallon gas is irrelevant

only an elitist like yourself would ignore kitchen table issues

by Al Rodgers 2008-05-31 04:58PM | 0 recs
Re: you're right

bud, get over yourself and read the actual comments before popping off

by trytobereal 2008-05-31 05:01PM | 0 recs
oh, why doncha try to be real

by Al Rodgers 2008-05-31 05:04PM | 0 recs
Re: oh, why doncha try to be real

keep on avoiding reality

by trytobereal 2008-05-31 05:06PM | 0 recs
you mean, like the delegate count

by Al Rodgers 2008-05-31 05:07PM | 0 recs
Re: you mean, like the delegate count

are you drunk or something? WTF does that have to do with the original comment you answered via insult, off point as the insult was? Why are you so dishonest you try to shift to another subject besides your rudness?

by trytobereal 2008-05-31 05:15PM | 0 recs
Re: but the question now remains...

No, and they shouldn't, and this only goes to prove what a dumb fuck he really is. He should have dumped these nuts before he ever thought about running for the senate, much less the presidency. By the way, what does this do to his credibility, I still remember his words after the "uncle" Wright story broke, of how Wright was like a member of his family, and he could no more disown him, than he could his old white granny, or words to that effect. maybe words no longer matter to him. What an asshole!

by muggle 2008-05-31 06:17PM | 0 recs
Dude, that's not cool...

...whatever you might think about Obama (or anyone) there's no reason to resort to profane namecalling.

by DawnG 2008-05-31 08:30PM | 0 recs
Re: but the question now remains...

How long have you been into politics?

Michelle must be getting nervous. O's running out of people to throw under that humongous bus.

by bird52 2008-05-31 06:18PM | 0 recs
myself? not very long.

but by your level of cynicism I'm wagering you're an old pro at it.

Go sell crazy somewhere else, we're full up here.

by DawnG 2008-05-31 08:31PM | 0 recs
Re: myself? not very long.

I think Bird has a valid point about that bus.

Maybe not Michelle, aka "the Closer" in the BHO camp, but it does raise a few questions, don'cha think?

I think he just gave some much-needed ammo to the McCain machine.

by dembluestates 2008-06-01 08:45AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama gets out of Trinity

So what church does he belong to now?

by Sieglinde 2008-05-31 02:28PM | 0 recs
Why...

looking for your next target?

by Massadonious 2008-05-31 02:30PM | 0 recs
Re: Why...

Heh!  :)

Actually, it'd be cool if Obama remained church-free.

If he were brave enough to denounce RELIGION, I'd quickly switch from Hillary to Obama in a heartbeat.

by Sieglinde 2008-05-31 02:37PM | 0 recs
Re: Why...

Denouncing religion would only be courageous if he is an aetheist, which he clearly is not.

by JDF 2008-05-31 04:24PM | 0 recs
Re: Why...

Are you sure he's religious? I think he'll be whatever he needs to be.

by muggle 2008-05-31 06:19PM | 0 recs
Re: Why...

Why do I doubt that?

by ReillyDiefenbach 2008-05-31 04:51PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama gets out of Trinity

Church of Our Lord of Political Expedience  ;-)

by itsthemedia 2008-05-31 03:39PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama gets out of Trinity

Father Pfleger's.

by bird52 2008-05-31 06:19PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama gets out of Trinity

sad

Pfleger was a good guy, did a lot for his community and was a real peace pushing guy

i wonder why he would do that at the church, they knew the church had a lot of attention after wright, why would he say those things knowing that it would get covered.

by Monolithic 2008-05-31 02:29PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama gets out of Trinity

The church didn't want their statements to hurt him.

He didn't want the attention on him to destroy the church.

It's a necessary, but disappointing, result.

by TCQuad 2008-05-31 02:32PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama gets out of Trinity

The good news is, this means that certain diarists here will have to vote for him now, won't they? This is basically what they wanted, right?

by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner 2008-05-31 02:36PM | 0 recs
I won't hold my breath

Now it will be that he did not do it soon enough, or did not bulldoze the church building, or something.

by protothad 2008-05-31 03:55PM | 0 recs
Re: I won't hold my breath

I've said it before, I'll say it again: it's not an apology unless you invent a time machine and undo everything that required apologizing.

That's the only way we can be sure you're sincere.

by TCQuad 2008-05-31 09:44PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama gets out of Trinity

It is really odd. In the video, he actually pre-announces that he knows he is about to get the church in trouble. He just can't help himself.

I will take your word that on balance he is a good guy. Certainly, I can tell he really believes what he says about white racial guilt, and feels he is righteous. I don't agree with the whole "sins of the fathers" concept, but he obviously means well, and it is at least an interesting subject for philosophical discussion. But what he said in that video about Clinton is not "Christian" by any definition I know. He is not being righteous, or pious, and certainly not charitable. He is being cruel, vindictive, derisive and divisive. I am no longer a practicing Catholic, but if I were I would be embarrased at such beavior from a priest.

by itsthemedia 2008-05-31 03:47PM | 0 recs
If a tree falls in the forest....

If a tree falls in the forest and everybody is focusing on:

1. the RBC

2. Puerto Rico

3. Montana and the latest Hanna Montana racy photos

4. South Dakota

5. concluding the primary season

then, did anyone see the tree fall?  

by Al Rodgers 2008-05-31 02:30PM | 0 recs
Re: If a tree falls in the forest....

You're kidding, right?

Has the media ever NOT given breathless 24-hour coverage to every single thing Rev. Wright and the church did?

"20 American troops were killed in Iraq today when...what's that? We've got breaking news here...apparently, Rev. Jeremiah Wright just said some craaaazy shit!"

by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner 2008-05-31 02:35PM | 0 recs
It's not enough!

He's got to denounce all of Christianity. It's the only way I'll vote for him or I swear I'm voting McCain in November!

/troll.

by Firewall 2008-05-31 02:30PM | 0 recs
Re: It's not enough!

The tinfoil hat wearing wingnuts will claim he is returning to his father's faith, Islam.

by Lefty Coaster 2008-05-31 02:41PM | 0 recs
Re: It's not enough!

At least if he did rejoin the faith of his fathers Usama Bin laden cannot claim that the Armies of the Christian West are being led by an Apostate which for the Muslim world is a very heinous thing.

Dang, it would seem, seem mind you, that no matter what the August Senator from IL does....

His foot ends up in his mouth.

Hard to hit them threes from that position.

by Pericles 2008-05-31 04:15PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama gets out of Trinity

He should have resigned a long time ago, but I'm happy he finally did. However, I question the timing of this "Breaking News" item. It breaks just as the DNC is about to vote. I smell a very savy politician.

by zenful6219 2008-05-31 02:31PM | 0 recs
He's a member of the Democrat party;

whaddaya expect? ;^)

by Firewall 2008-05-31 02:31PM | 0 recs
Re: He's a member of the Democrat party;

I guess I should have expected it.

by zenful6219 2008-05-31 02:33PM | 0 recs
Re: He's a member of the Democrat party;

well, it is certainly plain he is not the different kind of pol all you folks have let yourselves be deluded into thinking he is.

by trytobereal 2008-05-31 05:04PM | 0 recs
Re: He's a member of the Democrat party;

Oh, certainly.

by Covin 2008-05-31 10:29PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama gets out of Trinity

This is over now. I hope everyone moves on, in particular a certain pro-Hillary diarist who is no doubt suffering the vapors over Hillary's impending loss in the RBC today.

by HisRoyalHighness 2008-05-31 02:31PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama gets out of Trinity

While I'm glad he finallyresigned, and I congratulate him for the action, he should have done it a long time ago. I don't want this to sound like he could do nothing to please me, but this resignation is almost too late to matter. Almost. Maybe he got it in just under the wire.

by zenful6219 2008-05-31 02:35PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama gets out of Trinity

Look, it's not like these folks were baby murderers or terrorists dropping bombs.  It was a group of people with controversial rhetoric.  He did what a good leader should do, he stepped back and gave them room to meet him in the middle, they didn't, so he stepped back further.  Still didn't, stepped back further, one more time....

Okay, done.  

I'm sure if he found out they were eating kittens in the rectory, he would have resigned immediately.

You have to keep it perspective, IMO

by Tommy Flanagan 2008-05-31 03:28PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama gets out of Trinity

What about just one kitten? Would he resign over just one kitten eaten in the rectory? What if the kitten was already kind of sick?

by itsthemedia 2008-05-31 03:54PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama gets out of Trinity

You mean "under the wire" for your support, or for the electorate in general? I think he is doing the best thing politically to get out of there now, before yet another video surfaces.

Wrongly, there will be a lot of media attention focused on Obama's religion and church in the GE. I know it is morally wrong, but he has to realize that he is carrying the ball for a hundred million Democratic voters now, and find some nice, mixed race, uncontroversial church in DC to join. There must be dozens of them.

by itsthemedia 2008-05-31 04:01PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama gets out of Trinity

Interesting comment. I wonder if there may be something to that Mrs. Obama "whitey" rant tape that LJ keeps talking about, if Obama knew it or other video's are coming out, quitting this festering sore of a church now, could very well be the start of damage control.

I

by muggle 2008-05-31 06:33PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama gets out of Trinity

Did you check with the McSame campaign on your assertion that we can all move along?

Be interesting to hear what they say....

.

by Pericles 2008-05-31 04:17PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama gets out of Trinity

And here you are claiming to be a Democrat.

by ReillyDiefenbach 2008-05-31 04:55PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama gets out of Trinity

I help with Obama's religious targeting, hepling with ads and messaging.  His membership to the Church was distracting the Church from their community goals, and was distracting the nation (wrongly) from our common challenges.  It is sad our nation has reached this point.  And, frankly many on this site have piled on when it was not needed.  I repeat that so many people have stood by this Church who know this Church...white and black.  The only people complaining are those from afar.  

In terms of the father.  He has apologized, sincerely, he got carried away and admitted it.  Sen. Obama spoke out forcefully against his comments, and this has lead him to decide that membership in this church is no longer a positive thing.  

The Obama family is moving into a big White House in DC in a few months, and have not attended Trinity for some time due to the campaign, so they will be looking for a new Church in DC.

by cardboard 1 2008-05-31 02:34PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama gets out of Trinity

I didn't complete my thought on the father, sorry.  I've always understood Christianity to be founded on both Justice and Forgiveness... and have been rather saddened to see people, such as the Catholic league, not accept his apology.

by cardboard 1 2008-05-31 02:37PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama gets out of Trinity

The Catholic League denounced a priest?  Well, that's a first!  I guess Obama's not the only guy to have to throw their religion under the bus 'cos of narrow-mindedness by so many Americans.

by LordMike 2008-05-31 04:57PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama gets out of Trinity

It's not like anyone here hasn't been nearly as incendiary in their rhetoric, as well.  Overblown, IMO

by Tommy Flanagan 2008-05-31 03:29PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama gets out of Trinity

You do mean the VP's mansion, right?

by dembluestates 2008-06-01 08:49AM | 0 recs
Obama gets out of Trinity

Obama probaly had to leave Trinity this year anyway, since he's probably moving to D.C. in January.

by Lefty Coaster 2008-05-31 02:36PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama gets out of Trinity

Became too much of a political liability.

Now, what was the reason Obama gave for dumping Rev. Wright again???

by Juno 2008-05-31 02:36PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama gets out of Trinity

Anyone who helps Obama rise is treated to the same retribution.  

Alice Palmer was just the beginning.  And frankly, the Alice Palmer story bothers me more than Wright.  You get a real sense for who Obama is from that.  Now he's trying to Alice-Palmer Michigan & Florida.  Winning on technicalities rather than votes.  

by BPK80 2008-05-31 02:42PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama gets out of Trinity

its called rules but I have the feeling you don't care about them if they don't help your preferred candidate.

by Xris 2008-05-31 02:47PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama gets out of Trinity

It takes a different mentality to accomplish the inhuman under the guise of rules compliance, IMO.  I'd always considered the Democratic party to be more humanist while the GOP was more rules-authoritarian.  It's possible I was wrong.  

by BPK80 2008-05-31 02:50PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama gets out of Trinity

comparing party rules regarding the dates of primaries to authoritarian vs. humanist philosophy is a huge stretch.  

by Xris 2008-05-31 02:55PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama gets out of Trinity

Pretty naive. ALL politicians, regardless of party, use things like petition deadlines to try to disqualify opponents.

I appreciate the idealism. I'm an idealist myself. But what Obama did with Alice Palmer hardly qualifies as some sort of Rovian mischief.

by elrod 2008-05-31 03:15PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama gets out of Trinity

It's the macro picture also.  She groomed him as her successor in the event that her bid for national office was successful.  It wasn't and when she came home for her seat, Obama ripped it from her, not in an election, but by disqualifying signatures that were only partially in cursive and partially printed.  

I don't see myself getting all happy to unify behind this guy.  

by BPK80 2008-05-31 03:21PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama gets out of Trinity

Okay so here is the truth about the Alice Palmer situation:

-She decided she was going to run for U.S. Congress and named Obama as her succcessor.

-She wasn't going to win the seat for U.S. Congress so she decided to try to get back on the ballot for State Senator and told Obama he needed to drop out after he had done all of this work for his campaign. He said no. Why should he after all, she was the one that was so sure that she would win the open house seat but she didn't.

-Alice was angry because she wanted to get back on the ballot by getting people to sign outside of the district and she didn't even get enough.

She is only supporting Hillary Clinton now out of spite.

by sweet potato pie 2008-05-31 04:32PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama gets out of Trinity

She's clearly in the right.  I know Obama's charisma has an uncanny effect of making otherwise clear thinkers engage in moral & logical gymnastics, but backstabbing your mentor is sour any way you slice it.  It's also very telling on his character.  

by BPK80 2008-06-01 07:26AM | 0 recs
The inhuman??!!!

Hyperbole much?
He got her knocked off the ballot; a ballot she claimed she wasn't going to be on to begin with.

He didn't torture her. He didn't slander her. He didn't burn her house down or kill her dog.

He got her knocked off the ballot.

Politics is a full contact sport and Alice Parker knew that.

by JDF 2008-05-31 04:29PM | 0 recs
Re: The inhuman??!!!

Please.  Alice Palmer did him a great favor that was contingent on her winning an upward election.  When that didn't pan out, he stabbed her in the back.  

Out of curiosity, does your "Obama was just engaging in politics as usual" concession not underscore the charade element in his promises of change and new politics?

by BPK80 2008-06-01 07:28AM | 0 recs
Re: The inhuman??!!!

I think this whole "he doesn't really create a new type of politics" argument is utter crap.

His campaign is different from anything we have seen before (with the possible exception of Dean but Obama made it WORK.)

He has consistently handled himself with class while still being able to roll with and land punches against his opponents.

He never said "I am not going to be a politician."

He never said "I'm not going to do what it takes to win."

Which is apparently what Democrats like you took it to mean. Just because you were wrong does not mean he was wrong.

by JDF 2008-06-03 08:24AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama gets out of Trinity

Alice Palmer left the seat and tried to run elsewhere.  She pulled a Hillary, and said, "It's Mine I want it back!" when she had no right to claim it.

Rules knocked her out, not Obama.

But then, HRC Supporters have issue with the rules.

by Tommy Flanagan 2008-05-31 03:30PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama gets out of Trinity

> She pulled a Hillary

WTF? Are all your political opponents cartoons?

by itsthemedia 2008-05-31 04:07PM | 0 recs
New song

New kids' song:

The wheels on Barack's bus go round and round, round and round, round and round . . .

by katmandu1 2008-05-31 02:38PM | 0 recs
How about your theme song?

How does the Fox News intro go again?

by Massadonious 2008-05-31 02:39PM | 0 recs
Re: New song

The preachers under the bus go clunk, clunk, clunk.  :-)

by itsthemedia 2008-05-31 04:08PM | 0 recs
Audacity of Despair

What does Obama believe in?

Does this guy believe in anything?

When things get rough does he cut and run?

Why now, why didn't he quit when Wright, a handful of days after 9/11 said "The chickens have come home to roost for America"  "Damn, Damn, Damn, America?"  

Why not then, but now?

Who is Barack Obama?

by minnehot1 2008-05-31 02:39PM | 0 recs
Re: Audacity of Despair

Why does this not get people banned?  I mean, the vote is taking place right now that makes Barack Obama the nominee of the party.  

And this poster is pushing right wing memes that we do not know Sen. Obama.  After All he has a foreign name and has attended a traditionally black Church.

by cardboard 1 2008-05-31 02:41PM | 0 recs
Re: Audacity of Despair

Freespeechzone told me to shut up too.

Who'd have thought it'd be Obamans against people expressing opinions?  And how odd that they've taken up the Bush position on dissent.

People should be banned now for criticizing Obama.

And the claim is that Mccain will be four more years of Bush. wow.

by Juno 2008-05-31 02:46PM | 0 recs
Re: Audacity of Despair

No people should be banned for pushing "who is this guys" right wing memes.  Talk about rules.  That is in the user rules for this site.

by cardboard 1 2008-05-31 02:48PM | 0 recs
Re: Audacity of Despair

It has nothing to do with what you say and everything to do with how you say it.

by vcalzone 2008-05-31 02:52PM | 0 recs
Re: Audacity of Despair

Well, thank you for clarifying.

We'll be sure to check with Obama or one of his disciples to make sure we're saying things in a manner that passes their test.

by Juno 2008-05-31 02:54PM | 0 recs
Re: Audacity of Despair

Is that anything like Ari Fleisher saying Americans need to be careful about what they say?

by Juno 2008-05-31 03:02PM | 0 recs
Re: Audacity of Despair

Why don't we just call it not being argumentative and angry about everything? I believe Ari Fleischer WAS talking about not saying certain things.

Here's good:
"Doesn't this strike anyone else as disingenuous? While I'm glad that he finally renounced that kind of church and its message, it doesn't strike me as honorable in the least that he did it after being a member for 20 years."

Here's bad:
"Does this guy believe in anything? When things get rough, does he cut and run?"

One opens a dialogue and is designed to get serious responses. The other is designed to create division, to get pats on the back from people who agree and to stick your thumb in the eye of anyone who disagrees. The disdain in such a sharp and unflinching response is completely transparent. Why would anyone defend you when you clearly have no respect for them? Why would anyone want to hear what you have to say when you don't care what they have to say?

by vcalzone 2008-05-31 03:17PM | 0 recs
Re: Audacity of Despair

All say one thing for ya pal....

You got Chutzpah.

For a group who's leaders have demanded that Hillary quit before the voting is over....

For a group who's paid MDM shills have advocate taking Hillary in a closet and beating her to death....

For a group who's follower's on the 'net commonly not uncommonly call for her throat to be slit...for her to be raped...

For a group who consider anyone who says anything critical of Barry a racist....

Why you've suddenly acquired quite the sensitivity to what and how opinions are being expressed in this campaign. Even the thugs at RedState & Co. have noticed.

It's way late to ask for comity for a corrupt bumbler who is running a classic Chicago in the gutter campaign.

Too damn late.

You can play chump for this guy.

I'm not.
.

by Pericles 2008-05-31 04:39PM | 0 recs
Re: Audacity of Despair

I did none of those things.

by vcalzone 2008-05-31 04:57PM | 0 recs
Re: Audacity of Despair

read the comment, he said as a group which is exactly what has happened. remember the old saying and don't try to pretend to be shocked when you get fleas.

by trytobereal 2008-05-31 05:44PM | 0 recs
Re: Audacity of Despair

It was a response to a comment I made. And he addressed it to me. I'm sorry for whatever abuse he has received on the Internet, but we've all experienced it. It's nothing unique to anybody's own experience. It doesn't give you the moral right to be a jerk whenever you feel like it.

by vcalzone 2008-05-31 06:02PM | 0 recs
Re: Audacity of Despair

Oh BTW, thanks for the troll rating...much obliged..

by hootie4170 2008-05-31 06:08PM | 0 recs
Re: Audacity of Despair

Dude, you just deliberately insulted somebody. You KNOW you deserved a TR for that.

by vcalzone 2008-05-31 06:23PM | 0 recs
Re: Audacity of Despair

Why..he was acting holier than thou...Picking out all of Obama's faults...Like he is perfect...Don't throw stones...

by hootie4170 2008-05-31 06:41PM | 0 recs
Re: Audacity of Despair

You are correct (even if criticizing Obama is fully allowed on here). But at least they were talking about the candidate and not a specific poster.

by vcalzone 2008-05-31 06:50PM | 0 recs
Re: Audacity of Despair

But since it's bugging you, I take it back.

by vcalzone 2008-05-31 06:53PM | 0 recs
Re: Audacity of Despair

Why the hell was I troll-rated for this?

by vcalzone 2008-05-31 06:21PM | 0 recs
Re: Audacity of Despair

this reillydiefenbach(sp?) is just someone's very very confused sock-puppet I think.

by trytobereal 2008-05-31 07:10PM | 0 recs
Re: Audacity of Despair

For a group who's follower's on the 'net commonly not uncommonly call for her throat to be slit...for her to be raped...

I'm sorry?  Are we supposed to take your word on that?  It's a pretty serious charge.

I'm sure it's happened (there have been scattered death threats on Obama too--just check NoQuarter), but to say it's "common" is ridiculous.

by BishopRook 2008-05-31 04:58PM | 0 recs
Re: Audacity of Despair

Okay, Pericles, you need to cool off.  Push off from the all-important keyboard for a while and come back when you can debate in a safe and sane manner.

by ReillyDiefenbach 2008-05-31 05:00PM | 0 recs
Re: Audacity of Despair

Reilly, you troll-rated my comment above, and if it was for a reason, that's cool. Not really in the spirit of what TRs are, but whatever. But if you did it in revenge for your own rating, check it. I gave you a 2 because someone else gave you a 0, averaging out to a 1. If I could give you higher, I would.

by vcalzone 2008-05-31 06:22PM | 0 recs
Freespeechzone told me to shut up too.

This lie is bordering on predatory.

Please post a link to my words as you portray them or refrain from repeating it again.

(I've never troll rated anyone, but I'm tempted.)

by Freespeechzone 2008-05-31 03:03PM | 0 recs
Unbelievable.

He doesn't denounce Wright, people are upset.

He denounces Wright, people wonder what took him so long.

He doesn't denounce Pfleger, people are upset.

He splits from the church who spawned both Wright and Pfleger, people are still upset.

WHAT THE HELL DO YOU PEOPLE WANT???

by Massadonious 2008-05-31 02:42PM | 0 recs
Re: Unbelievable.

How about the authenticity he claims to be about.

He's NOT.  We're sick of the BS.

by Juno 2008-05-31 02:43PM | 0 recs
Re: Unbelievable.

So, you're okay with "God damn America" and Pfleger's white entitlement speech?

How can he have authenticity WHEN YOU PEOPLE WONT LET HIM HAVE IT IT THE FIRST PLACE.

by Massadonious 2008-05-31 02:46PM | 0 recs
Re: Unbelievable.

He never HAD IT.

by Juno 2008-05-31 02:53PM | 0 recs
Re: Unbelievable.

In other words, nothing he does will placate you.

by Cochrane 2008-05-31 02:55PM | 0 recs
Re: Unbelievable.

I don't need placating.

As I said, I could care less if he stays in that church or goes. The issue was never Wright or anything he said for me.

Seems to be over people's heads here.

by Juno 2008-05-31 03:02PM | 0 recs
Re: Unbelievable.

If you get to decide what matters to you and tell us about it (which is fair), then I will do the same.

The proper phrase is "I couldn't care less."  This is the correct phrasing because it means you are at absolute apathy, and there is simply no possible way that you could care less than you do right now.

When you say "I could care less" you are stating that you care.  You must care, by direct implication, because you could care less than you do right now.

by Reaper0Bot0 2008-05-31 03:18PM | 0 recs
According to dictionary.com

Either is acceptable:

care:
.
.
.
13. couldn't care less, could not care less; be completely unconcerned: I couldn't care less whether she goes to the party or not. Also, could care less.

Personally, I never had much use for this pseudoscandal, but Obama is probably doing the right thing to distance himself from Trinity. It seems they have no intention of stemming the flow of controversial sermons until after the election, and he cannot afford anything new and really outrageous to come out after Labor Day.

by itsthemedia 2008-05-31 04:20PM | 0 recs
Re: Unbelievable.

Basically, anything less than dropping out isn't going to be enough for them.

by rfahey22 2008-05-31 02:46PM | 0 recs
WHAT THE HELL DO YOU PEOPLE WANT???

To hate Obama for anything they can dream up.

by Freespeechzone 2008-05-31 02:46PM | 0 recs
Re: WHAT THE HELL DO YOU PEOPLE WANT???

This is just childish.

It's okay to go after McCain over Hagee and others, and to go after Falwell and Robertson, et al, but Obama is somehow different.

Well, you're not consistent.  

by Juno 2008-05-31 02:52PM | 0 recs
Yeah, he's different

because Obama is a DEMOCRAT.

You should read what this site is about sometime.

by Massadonious 2008-05-31 02:56PM | 0 recs
Re: Yeah, he's different

The site is for liberals and progressives, not Democrats per se. One of the fundamental underpinnings of liberal thought is rationality, including intellectual consistency and honesty. It is not out of bounds to ask for consistency.

For myself, I hope I have been and will remain able to maintain relative consistency by NOT going after anybody, Republican, Democrat, or otherwise, solely on the grounds of who they have as their associates. For you Christians out there - recall that Jesus chose to hang out with bums, whores and tax collectors.

by itsthemedia 2008-05-31 04:28PM | 0 recs
Re: Yeah, he's different

actually the user guidelines state quite clearly that this is a site devoted to the election of Democrats.

by JDF 2008-05-31 04:33PM | 0 recs
Re: Yeah, he's different

I cannot find where it says that, can you help?

http://www.mydd.com/about

About MyDD
About MyDD
MyDD is a group blog designed to discuss campaigns, the progressive movement, and political power. We do polling, research, commentary, analysis, and activism.

The only mention of Democrats that I could find is this:

* Users who are excessively bashing the Democratic Party, or being Republican trolls, will be banned.

Asking for intellectual consistency does not qualify in my book as excessively bashing the Democratic Party.

by itsthemedia 2008-05-31 05:19PM | 0 recs
Re: Yeah, he's different

he may be "thinking" of dkos and being lost in a fog of his own making be unable to tell the difference (hint: one is orange and run by a Reagan republican who pretends he has changed, here, not)

by trytobereal 2008-05-31 05:49PM | 0 recs
Re: Yeah, he's different

You're not going to get consistency, period, end of story.  The last guy who was perfectly consistent got himself nailed to a cross.  We're running for office here in a country full of idiots.  Try not to act like one.

by ReillyDiefenbach 2008-05-31 05:04PM | 0 recs
Re: Yeah, he's different

You are saying that I am acting like an idiot because I dare to ask for intellectual consistency in a political discussion? I guess the Age of Reason is over.

by itsthemedia 2008-05-31 05:21PM | 0 recs
Re: Yeah, he's different
Looking over the broad and deep panorama of intellectual dishonesty on daily display here, one can only conclude that said age never started.  
   We need to win this election by hook or by crook, then sort it out later after we have "consistently" kicked many republican asses out of office.
by ReillyDiefenbach 2008-05-31 05:32PM | 0 recs
Re: Yeah, he's different

so win at any cost? uh huh, and to think that was flung at HRC as an insult and now that is how you want to win. The Karl Rove way. Not a shock seeing that come from you.

by trytobereal 2008-05-31 06:17PM | 0 recs
If you don't cease and desist with your

bogus troll ratings, I will contact the admins with all relevant information.

by ReillyDiefenbach 2008-05-31 06:29PM | 0 recs
Re: If you don't cease and desist with your

then you should not have TR'ed me for telling the truth I guess. Funny how you HR and TR anyone you simply disageee with then turn around and whine when payback comes around. well, not funny just typical of the intellectually dishonest.

by trytobereal 2008-05-31 07:08PM | 0 recs
Re: If you don't cease and desist with your

Do not ever interact with me if you can't keep your hairy paw off the troll button, and I shall do likewise.

by ReillyDiefenbach 2008-05-31 07:17PM | 0 recs
Re: Yeah, he's different

"Consistency" brought us four more years. And it can mean anything. Stick with the honesty.

Going after Hagee and McCain's other pastors was about pointing out the disparity in media coverage between Obama and McCain.

by Covin 2008-05-31 10:47PM | 0 recs
Re: Yeah, he's different

Yeah, I know, working the refs and all that. I get it. I just think liberals are at their best when they act, well, liberal. Real liberalism has to entail commitment to rational discourse. If we are just fighting for a different flavor of authoritarianism, what is the point?

by itsthemedia 2008-05-31 11:34PM | 0 recs
Re: Yeah, he's different

No disagreement here on that point.

by Covin 2008-06-01 11:49AM | 0 recs
It's okay to go after McCain over Hagee

Juno has inadvertantly revealed his real loyalty.

How long will this McCainiac have the run of the place to attack the Democratic nominee?

by Freespeechzone 2008-05-31 03:06PM | 0 recs
Re: It's okay to go after McCain over Hagee

Name calling is beneath you. Also, if your screen name is accurate, you should not be advocating the banning of anyone just because they might disagree with you.

Next, you will call me a McCainiac, which is fine, but just so you know, it ain't so.

by itsthemedia 2008-05-31 04:31PM | 0 recs
Re: It's okay to go after McCain over Hagee

Banning is the new solution the Obama supporters are advocating to solve their problems...well it's not 'new' they've been taking over one site after another using this technique...as I am sure Jerome knows.

There also seems to be a basic misunderstanding here about what being democratic is. Criticising a so called 'Democrat' is in line with liberal ideas of free speech and individual rights.

This is so whether or not the criticism is perceived to help the enemies of democracy. Otherwise....

Those who would  impose a Fascist State on us can and will control the narrative.

If the Magic Man can't take the heat then let him and his suddenly sensitive supporters heed Harry Truman's advice.

In all seriousness if you are here making comments to the effect someone should be banned because that comment might help McSame you belong at RedState.

That's how they run their show.

by Pericles 2008-05-31 04:50PM | 0 recs
Re: It's okay to go after McCain over Hagee

If the term "McCainiac" disagrees with you, I'm starting to wonder just how many other "clinton supporters" around here are genuine. It's like she support she's getting from Fox Newz -- only intended to sow rancor and division.

by Freespeechzone 2008-05-31 06:38PM | 0 recs
Re: Unbelievable.

It's really frustrating, isn't it? Dealing with people who have no real opinions, only reactions.

by vcalzone 2008-05-31 02:47PM | 0 recs
Re: Audacity of Despair

Bingo.

by Juno 2008-05-31 02:42PM | 0 recs
Re: Audacity of Despair

You just bummed because you won't be able to tie that church around his neck any more.

by Freespeechzone 2008-05-31 02:43PM | 0 recs
Re: Audacity of Despair

I don't know--why did Hillary invent a story about her getting shot at by Bosnian snipers?

by Brannon 2008-05-31 02:57PM | 0 recs
Re: Audacity of Despair

why did BHO make up stories about his granfather or was it his uncle or whoever liberating the wrong concentration camp? do you really want to go down that road?

by trytobereal 2008-05-31 05:53PM | 0 recs
Re: Audacity of Despair

oops, seems i gored someone ox with the truth and scared the baby puppies! boo hoo!

LOL at the coward :P

by trytobereal 2008-05-31 06:14PM | 0 recs
I think he'd have been better

standing up for himself and staying in.  He can't just walk away from 20 years, and his church did a lot of good despite harboring some hateful and divisive messages.   He should had said that the whole of his church is good and rejected the specifics.

by activatedbybush 2008-05-31 02:40PM | 0 recs
Re: I think he'd have been better

Apparently, the church and its congregation had been receiving threats, attacks and scrutiny the entire time. That's not surprising, but it is something often lost in this whole thing. I think it may have been a mutual split. Not an acrimonious one, just one that was necessary.

by vcalzone 2008-05-31 02:49PM | 0 recs
I was expecting it.

Sometimes it's just time to move on.

That latest silly preacher was bad enough, but the way the audience cackled with delight made me think Obama wouldn't want to be with them any more either.

by Freespeechzone 2008-05-31 02:40PM | 0 recs
Re: I was expecting it.

Yeah, that's it.

Sheesh.

Took him 20 years to figure it out, just happens to coincide with his running for president.

right.

by Juno 2008-05-31 02:42PM | 0 recs
Re: I was expecting it.

Maybe if you and your Fox News buddies didn't make such a big deal over it in the first place, he wouldn't of had to do this.

He's throwing people under the bus to make people like YOU happy.

Apparently, that will never happen. So, go do us a favor, register Republican, and be done with it.

by Massadonious 2008-05-31 02:44PM | 0 recs
Re: I was expecting it.

1) I never watch FOX;

2) So you're saying that Obama wouldn't have to act in a politically expedient way if everyone would just give him a pass on everything but his camp can go after others for anything and everything under the sun.

That's called hubris. It's also evidence that Obama's rhetoric is just that: rhetoric.

He clearly IS leaving for political purposes and he specifically said the reason he finally divorced himself from Wright was because Wright accused him of doing what he needs to do politically.

And if you think Republicans won't use this against him, think again.

by Juno 2008-05-31 02:51PM | 0 recs
Re: I was expecting it.

Republicans will use anything and everything against him. They have no scruples.

If Barack Obama was distancing himself for political expediency, why didn't he do it when the story first hit the media this year? Why didn't he do it last year? Why did he wait literally months to leave, and why did he defend Wright until he just couldn't anymore? That isn't doing what is politically expedient, that is someone realizing a person they respected is not who they thought they were.

by vcalzone 2008-05-31 02:56PM | 0 recs
Re: I was expecting it.

You seriously think he's not doing it because of Pfleger?????

Oh good grief.  No wonder he's been so successful at selling vapid bull.

by Juno 2008-05-31 03:08PM | 0 recs
Re: I was expecting it.

Of course he is! That's still not just dumping old friends for political expedience. Expedient means easy. It would have been a hundred times easier to dump the church when he decided he had to denounce Wright. It would have been a thousand times easier to just dump the church after his remarks first came to light. It would have been a million times easier to dump the church last year. What was politically difficult was to stand behind his fellow congregants and their widely respected pastor when everyone around him was telling him to quit.

by vcalzone 2008-05-31 03:22PM | 0 recs
Re: I was expecting it.

Do you think that Republicans might notice that Hillary completely made up a story about being shot at by snipers in Bosnia? that she stared right into the camera and lied several separate times?

by Brannon 2008-05-31 03:00PM | 0 recs
Re: I was expecting it.

I know you're just bitter because you no longer have that church to link Obama to.

by Freespeechzone 2008-05-31 02:44PM | 0 recs
Re: I was expecting it.

You don't begin to understand my position in this.

by Juno 2008-05-31 02:48PM | 0 recs
Re: I was expecting it.

I think anti-Obama troll is your position. I think we all understand it.

by letterc 2008-05-31 04:36PM | 0 recs
Re: I was expecting it.

Oh you're soooooooo perfect...King Juno...Let's name a street after him...Juno Avenue...All hail Juno....Juno the Great....There is no one greater...Juno knows all that's why he/she blogs all day...Speak the truth Master Juno...He who knows no wrong.....

by hootie4170 2008-05-31 03:47PM | 0 recs
Re: I was expecting it.

Juvenile.

by Pericles 2008-05-31 04:51PM | 0 recs
Re: I was expecting it.

I concur.

by vcalzone 2008-05-31 05:02PM | 0 recs
Press conference tonight

http://blogs.suntimes.com/sweet/

Lynn Sweet says:

WASHINGTON--UPDATE--Obama spokesman Bill Burton confirmed that Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.) quit Chicago's Trinity United Church of Christ. Obama "will answer questions this evening" about resigning from the church that helped Obama chart his course as a Christian, an Obama top adviser just told me. UPDATE 2 Obama campaign manager David Plouffe just told me Obama's availability--where he will talk about ending his long relationship with Trinity will take place at about 8:15 p.m. eastern time tonight, from South Dakota, where he is campaigning in advance of Tuesday's primary vote.

by katmandu1 2008-05-31 02:47PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama gets out of Trinity

I guess he listened to you guys and thought insulting Hillary was the straw that breaks the camel's back.

by Benjaminomeara 2008-05-31 02:48PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama gets out of Trinity

Tell that to Juno.

Apparently, Obama needed to stay with the church to maintain his authenticity, despite the fact that everyone is telling him to publicly denounce members of that church.

by Massadonious 2008-05-31 02:54PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama gets out of Trinity

Huh?

Oh my, no,that is not my position.

I could care less if he stays or goes.

My position is simply that I wish he and his followers would stop with the BS claims that he represents something new and does not do things for politically expedient reasons. Of course he does.

It's the fraud I oppose.

by Juno 2008-05-31 02:57PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama gets out of Trinity

But yet you somehow are completely okay with Hillary claiming to be the protagonist in a Tom Clancy novel?

But what's your justification again, it's okay to be a fraud if you admit you're a fraud? Keep trying...

by Brannon 2008-05-31 03:03PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama gets out of Trinity

Right, because Clinton isn't running on being some new breed of nonpolitical politician.  I see her BS. I recognize is, and I call it BS when I see it.

Obamans don't, but it's their candidate who's claiming to transcend politics as usual.

He doesn't.

I see his BS too.

by Juno 2008-05-31 03:08PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama gets out of Trinity

Wait, but if lying is okay--then isn't it okay to lie about lying? And Hillary wouldn't admit to spewing BS--she said she was tired. So she was lying about lying.

I'm just trying to understand the rules of your twisted, delusional little game here:

1. Lying is okay, so long as you don't lie about lying

2. Lying about lying is okay, so long as you aren't good at it.

Is that it?

by Brannon 2008-05-31 03:18PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama gets out of Trinity

As Democrats there is nothing we hate more than someone who is politically savvy enough to know how to move through a Presidential election...

by JDF 2008-05-31 04:37PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama gets out of Trinity

I don't think any of us are missing what you have to say.

You say he's doing these things for politically expedient reasons, which means you're advocating him staying in the church and standing by his principles.

Meanwhile, his principles continue to get stomped on by Fox News types who continue to bring everyone who has ever associated with Obama into the media circus.

So, he either stays with the church, and gets attacked for what pastors and members say, or leaves the church, and gets attacked for being politically expedient.

Did I leave anything out?

by Massadonious 2008-05-31 03:11PM | 0 recs
If he didn't represent something new

he would have run ads with Monica and Clinton's old commie bosses against Clinton.

by heresjohnny 2008-05-31 04:29PM | 0 recs
Can someone explain to me

how Ickes could have voted to strip FL and MI pf ALL delegates but now attacks the committee for giving FL half its votes?

Is this not manipulative hypocrisy that all but the self-inflicted blind can't see through?

by Freespeechzone 2008-05-31 02:54PM | 0 recs
Re: Can someone explain to me

It's a political campaign. You do what you need to do to win.

by vcalzone 2008-05-31 02:58PM | 0 recs
Re: Can someone explain to me

Well clearly that's a message that almost 50% of the Democratic party can get behind.

by Brannon 2008-05-31 03:04PM | 0 recs
You do what you need to do to win.

That reputation is probably a big reason why Hillary lost.

by Freespeechzone 2008-05-31 03:15PM | 0 recs
Re: Can someone explain to me

That goes for Flournoy and all the other people on the Committee.

by rfahey22 2008-05-31 03:10PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama gets out of Trinity

Supers!  This is your moment

by cardboard 1 2008-05-31 02:56PM | 0 recs
Question

Question: do you think Obama would have left Trinity if he weren't running for the nomination?

by Sieglinde 2008-05-31 03:00PM | 0 recs
Re: Question

Of course not.

by Juno 2008-05-31 03:06PM | 0 recs
Re: Question

If he weren't running for President, TUCC wouldn't be getting the threats it gets.

This split was mutual. He didn't want to harm the church that he still respects.

Yes, he also didn't want to have to keep answering for every inane thing that came out of that church either. In an ideal world he would have stayed in that church and told off all the "racial resentment" white voters. But this is America and less-educated white people really do believe that blacks have it easier. TUCC so antagonizes these ignorant people that it gets in the way of the election.

by elrod 2008-05-31 03:21PM | 0 recs
Re: Question

In my ideal world:

1) Cheese would not have cholesterol.

  1. Obama would have stayed in his church, told off all those "racial resentment" voters, then asked to give the sermon and told off all the "racial resentment" preachers and church-goers.
  2. We would not be having this discussion, because the media would stick to matters of national importance when covering national elections.

by itsthemedia 2008-05-31 04:52PM | 0 recs
Re: Question

What good is a pointless guess?

by Freespeechzone 2008-05-31 03:16PM | 0 recs
He likely would not leave if he were not running


But big deal.  What does that mean?  Folks have bought into the political talking points so much that they are not thinking about the points themselves.

He is making a change to his organizational affiliation because it has become destructive to his greater pursuits.  He is not changing his core faith as far as we know - no pun intended.  How does that make him "inauthentic?"

My niece is graduating from college and is looking to get a job with a law firm.  I suggested she delete her MySpace page and clean up her internet references.  I suggested she step down from her role in a community organization because the leadership has some issues.  Does that make her inauthentic?  Nope, that makes her smart as hell because those things can become controversial to her pursuits.  They are not in conflict with how she is presenting herself but they may require a bit too much explanation, if she ever gets a chance to do it. For folks who might be simply looking for reasons to eliminate her from consideration, these things are of value.  Now she has taken away the ammo.

Not sure I see BO as any different, just slower that I would have liked at making some of his changes.

Look, I admire both of our candidates for taking stands when it was not 'popular' to do so and making changes when it made sense.  Hillary has stuck with Bill despite the outcries from some ignorant folks that she should leave - good on her.  This was her choice to make and hers alone and should have no place in the public forum.  I think BHO's decision is as personal and off limits.

by ILean Left 2008-05-31 03:20PM | 0 recs
Spirituality is NOT religion

Why is a man inauthentic because he decides membership with a group a believers no longer best serves him?  What if he left 5 years ago?  When was the 'right' time?

A person, one would hope, joins a body of believers and not a 'leader' as it relates to Christianity.  The latter defines a cult, the former defines a congregation.  Back when I attended a church, I stayed will beyond my affinity for the head pastor because I truly appreciated 2 of the assistant pastors and was incredibly fond and proud of the church's mission work.  I left because, personally, I felt I outgrew the ministry.

A church of 6000 members has several pastors, deacons and lay leaders that spend much more time with the membership than the head pastor.  This whole 'pastor gate' issue and discussion of "20 years" is so incredibly overblown even for the most moderate church member, as long as they are not looking for a reason to politically pounce on BO.

It is my hope that those who belong to a church do so for spiritual reasons, not religious ones.  Religion is, by its very nature, political.  Interestingly, I've heard no one attack his spirituality, only his religious affiliation - as though its a political affiliation.  If a man chooses to change his political affiliation for political expediency, I see no problem.

If he decides to change his spiritual beliefs for political reasons, now you have grounds to question his "authenticity."

But I have a question.  As Democrats, don't we champion a separation of church and state?  Don't we want the government out of our church and bedrooms so that we can marry who we please and have sex with who we please?  If so, why would we ever want to play around in this debate?

For the record, I also thought it stupid when folks tried to drag "The Family" into this primary debate as well.  This is not a candidate issue to me, it is at the root of the freedom we cherish.  We really do want to keep the government and church separate.  Understand a candidates philosophy and world view? Okay.  Go into their church to scrutinize it?  Not so much, IMHO.

Next thing you know, we'll eliminate candidates whose churches allow gay marriage, should the RW have their way, no?

by ILean Left 2008-05-31 03:04PM | 0 recs
Re: Spirituality is NOT religion

You like many, many Americans have a very imperfect understanding of what is most important about this issue.

Had Obama gone before the citizenry when the Wright affair first burst upon the scene and said,

'What goes on between me and my Pastor, between me and my church is just and only that. It has no bearing on my running for President. They will have no influence on my decisions as President. As JFK pledged I will act solely and only in the interests of the citizens of the United States.'

End of story.

But Barry, a midget as far as political acumen is concerned compared to JFK, wanted to 'box clever' he wants to get him some evangelical votes. So instead of taking a courageous progressive step into the future we have him pandering yet again.

Frankly, this issue isn't going away as the McSame campaign will use in to destroy Obama's campaign in the fall and....

It's purely and simply what he deserves.

America is not and never will be a theocracy and pandering to the vein of citizens who fervently with it was is...

....a recipe for losing. If Obama hadn't cut all those history classes at Harvard he'd know this. His followers have no excuse.
.

by Pericles 2008-05-31 05:09PM | 0 recs
Perfection is found in a collective understanding

and never in the solitude of one's own ignorance.

You like many, many Americans have a very imperfect understanding of what is most important about this issue.

I may concur as my opinion is only my own, even if shared by many, it is not the only one nor is it representative of everyone.

That being said, we approach this argument from different perspectives - mine is a spiritual one, yours a political one.  It does not make one wrong or right, just different. So let me join you on your platform for a moment.

I concur that JFK never downplayed his faith or played politics with his church.  Instead, he confronted the issue head on as in the interview he gave to Look Magazine wherein he was quoted:

"Whatever one's religion in private life may be, for the office-holder, nothing takes precedence over his oath to uphold the Constitution and all its parts - including the First Amendment and the strict separation of church and state."

And Obama was quoted in the CNN/YouTube debate as saying:

I am proud of my Christian faith. And it informs what I do. And I don't think that people of any faith background should be prohibited from debating in the public square.  But I am a strong believer in the separation of church and state, and I think that we've got to translate...(APPLAUSE)  By the way, I support it not just for the state but also for the church, because that maintains our religious independence and that's why we have such a thriving religious life.  But what I also think is that we are under obligation in public life to translate our religious values into moral terms that all people can share, including those who are not believers. And that is how our democracy's functioning, will continue to function. That's what the founding fathers intended.

Theocratic?  Not by a long shot.  The statements from Sen. Obama represent an evolution of the lessons that Kennedy taught us - recognition of faith in the public square is not taboo.  Whether we like it, acknowledge it, agree with it or not it exists and is part of the philosophy that informs the masses.  It is this resulting politic - ones philosophy in action - which becomes debatable in the public square.  In doing so, you are not drawing blending church with state, you are gaining an understanding of how ones faith informs their philosophy.

What we have done in this primary, and what you suggest here, is the politicization of the "Church" -   leave the church that inspired your spiritually when it becomes inconvenient to stay says many, and disguise how it impacts you so as to not allow church to mix with state, which is deceit.

I, for one, like the Obama/Kennedy approach.  I do not like that we seem to be too immature politically to deal with it.

by ILean Left 2008-05-31 08:56PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama gets out of Trinity

Obama throws another person or entity under the bus.The wreckage behind this guy is amazing.Blind ambition of the Chosen one is who he is.Grandmothers,mothers,pastors,mentors, pols who helped him,friends nothing stands in the way of his ego.Lets hope his wife and kids do not want to stay in the church or he would toss them too.Lets hope the Dems wake up before September or it will be Prsident McCain.

by grab6 2008-05-31 03:06PM | 0 recs
Bad day for him in the polls too

per Rasmussen:

Obama's numbers are 45% favorable and 53% unfavorable (see recent daily ratings). Those figures represent Obama's lowest ratings of the year. His favorability ratings peaked at 56% in mid-February. Twenty-five percent (25%) have a Very Favorable opinion of Obama while 37% have a Very Unfavorable view.

by katmandu1 2008-05-31 03:08PM | 0 recs
Re: Bad day for him in the polls too

Polls will change when pollsters stop pretending it's a three way contest.

by Freespeechzone 2008-05-31 03:17PM | 0 recs
Re: Bad day for him in the polls too

Stuck in that delusional phase are we.

Never seen someone with a more inappropriate screenname.

by Pericles 2008-05-31 05:11PM | 0 recs
Re: Bad day for him in the polls too

Delusional is thinking Hillary has any chance left except to wreck the Democratic Party in order to serve her selfish ambition.

by Freespeechzone 2008-05-31 06:40PM | 0 recs
Re: Bad day for him in the polls too

But the numbers cited are just about Obama, not comparing him to Clinton or McCain. How would that change if polsters stopped asking about Clinton's favorability?

by itsthemedia 2008-05-31 05:46PM | 0 recs
Re: Bad day for him in the polls too

When people are given false options some will make false choices.

by Freespeechzone 2008-05-31 06:41PM | 0 recs
Re: Bad day for him in the polls too

But "I prefer Hillary" was not offered as a choice in this poll (or at least I highly doubt that it was). The question was about how the respondent feels about Obama.

by itsthemedia 2008-05-31 11:42PM | 0 recs
Good

Now if we can just get all the rest of the politicians to give up on their theological obsessions.

As a non-theist, it is never entirely comfortable knowing that so many folks literally expect me to burn in liquid fire for eternity.  Kind of a funny belief system at the best of times...

-chris

by chrisblask 2008-05-31 03:26PM | 0 recs
Re: Good

He's quitting his church, not quitting Christianity.

by itsthemedia 2008-05-31 05:47PM | 0 recs
Re: Good

I know.  It was a somewhat lighthearted comment in reply to a diary on a volatile topic.

We can branch into theology if we want to, but that's a whole 'nother encyclopedic discussion.

For my part I grew up studying the Bible closely and believing every word (how can you not, if God wrote it?).  My father went to seminary, my step-dad is a civil-rights leader and Lutheran pastor, my mom is a full-tilt believer.  I know my Christianity very well, the good, the bad and the technical.  I don't disparage people for believing in that, or Islam, or Budhism, or Seth, or anything else - I assume they are sincere and no more foolish than anyone else.

But I would be dishonest if I didn't say that the whole idea of accepting an origin story that involves some sort of magic happening in the past (when burning bushes speak and dragons fly) does not make logical sense to me.  Mutually exclusive stories (Seth says we all choose our lives beforehand, create reality as we observe it - Yaweh says if you don't believe in him you'll stand in a lake of fire) even less.  Subdivided stories (Sunni/Shia, Catholic/Protestant) even less (it's a shoe!  it's a sandle!).

Then to have people argue about what it means if a potential World Leader listens to the wrong sort of Diety Spokesperson....

sigh...

If it is OK for everyone to worship whichever Diety they choose without reproach, I would like to think that it is OK for me to say that I wish people wouldn't need to worship Dieties in the first place.

I will not live to see it, but I would hope that someday we can move past all of that.

-chris

by chrisblask 2008-05-31 06:18PM | 0 recs
Re: Good

I apologize for stepping all over your joke. For encyclopedic discussions on theology, may I recommend the site skepticsannotatedbible.com and the discussion board there?

Your point about subdivided dogma is a good one. When right wing Christianists clamor for posting the Ten Commandments in some public place, I wish just once, someone would respond: "Which version?"

by itsthemedia 2008-05-31 11:57PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama gets out of Trinity

Congratulations to certain posters who made Obama church the shiny thing. What a proud moment when alegre came over yesterday citing no25cents.

Maybe you can find out if their daughters belong to a brownie troop and drive them out of there
...
But it doesn't matter.
Obama has more important things.
Obama and his campaign are focused on Bush/Mcwars.

and for those of you shouting "sexist"
Think of 8 years of Laura as a feminist icon.

Now picture this..

I give you the next First Lady of the United States.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqCYFpUAJ 2Q

by nogo postal 2008-05-31 03:31PM | 0 recs
Obama=Political Opportunist Number 1

Lost all my remaining respect.

by ann0nymous 2008-05-31 03:45PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama=Political Opportunist Number 1

You never had any....

by hootie4170 2008-05-31 03:49PM | 0 recs
Obama is a hypocrite

He no longer needs to pander for AA votes, so now he can pose as a "uniter."

Still no apology to Hillary Clinton for Pfleger's mocking her, though.  

No class, no unity.

***A

by adrienne4dean 2008-05-31 03:49PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama is a hypocrite

Absolutely! Obama should apologize whenever a supporter insults Hillary. In fact, he should apologize for Al Rodgers, Lord Hadrian, and me. Why haven't you apologized, Sen. Obama? Have you no class???

by motbob 2008-05-31 04:30PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama is a hypocrite

So wait a minute let me get this straight.

Obama now has to apologize persoanlly for what every idiot says about Hillary?

by JDF 2008-05-31 04:40PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama is a hypocrite

Wow!

Yer not quite as dumb as you seem!

by Pericles 2008-05-31 05:12PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama is a hypocrite

Pericles... I don't care if this comment gets me banned from the site.

You are worthless.

In fact you are less than worthless.

In my eyes you have negative value.

Bye now.

by JDF 2008-06-03 08:21AM | 0 recs
Too bad America is still so racist that Obama

was forced to do this. Well he'll be able to continue Trinity's work from the White House.

by heresjohnny 2008-05-31 04:27PM | 0 recs
Re: Too bad America is still so racist that Obama

That's what Falwell, et al, said about Bush becoming president.

I liked it better when Dems were for separation of Church and State.

by Juno 2008-05-31 04:29PM | 0 recs
Re: Too bad America is still so racist that Obama

Trinity does good secular work. The right-wing religious nuts want to impose their version of Christianity on all of us and our policies.

by heresjohnny 2008-05-31 04:31PM | 0 recs
Re: Too bad America is still so racist that Obama

You are either a troll or an idiot. You seem to be implying that Obama's connection with Wright and the UCC, a church that promotes tolerance and community building above everything else, is equivalent to Bush's connection to Falwell and the Religious Right, a group whose main objectives are the overturning of Roe v. Wade and the further disenfranchisement of homosexuals.

You said Obama was unelectable because of Wright and the UCC. Now that he has resigned, you criticize him for it. You seem to be sowing the seeds of discord for the hell of it. You need to pick a position about what Obama should do, and stick with it.

by motbob 2008-05-31 04:36PM | 0 recs
Re: Too bad America is still so racist that Obama

Wrong, on all counts.

and fyi, I'm for separation of church and state.  Period.  I don't qualify it. Neither did the Founding Fathers.

by Juno 2008-05-31 04:41PM | 0 recs
Re: Too bad America is still so racist that Obama

Could you explain why you think that was wrong? It seemed pretty right to me. The facts are that these churches Obama belongs to are devoted to community and service, churches like Falwell's, Robertson's, etc are devoted to grandstanding and political games. Others are devoted to the sort of greed so egregious that it would actually have angered the figure that they worship.

There is no parallel between the two camps. And even if you do think they're exactly the same, Trinity has no political ambition. Wright has run for no office, hired no lobbyist, or sought out any media attention (well, not before they started forcing it on him). If he were a member of Meeks's congregation, I would be more incensed. But Trinity does good.

I'm interested to hear your response, and I'd be grateful if you could actually respond to the issue directly in a manner that doesn't insult my intelligence.

by vcalzone 2008-05-31 05:14PM | 0 recs
Re: Too bad America is still so racist that Obama

And I am neither a troll nor an idiot, and if this is an example of the inspiration Obama provokes...well, no thank you.

No one proves Obama's message meaningless more than do his supporters.

by Juno 2008-05-31 04:43PM | 0 recs
Re: Too bad America is still so racist that Obama

So you'll be supporting McCain then?

by heresjohnny 2008-05-31 04:46PM | 0 recs
Re: Too bad America is still so racist that Obama

Not even worth responding to.

by Juno 2008-05-31 04:48PM | 0 recs
Re: Too bad America is still so racist that Obama

Moreso then all your "he's not better than she is" BS.

by heresjohnny 2008-05-31 04:50PM | 0 recs
Re: Too bad America is still so racist that Obama

I'd like to point out though that Clinton's right-wing religious guide takes credit for her right-wing legislation so if you're concerned about separation of church and state that  should comfort you a bit since she won't be able to do the bidding of that group from the White House.

by heresjohnny 2008-05-31 04:52PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama gets out of Trinity

for this Hillary supporter and lifelong Dem who has never voted for a Rethug in my life, it's too little too late for BO.  I'm am so shocked and repelled by what goes on in that "church" from the disgusting mockery to the veneration of Farahkhan, that the fact he sat there and nodded his head for 20 years, is just beyond the pale.  I have so many other issues with him, from his right wing framing of health care and social security to his "bitter" diatribe against working class people to his fantasy that Rethugs will ever be fair with him or Dems in general, to the toxic playing of the race card against Hill and Bill and their supporters to the positively stalinist behavior of his supporters (he who may not be criticized), just don't believe I'll be able to pull the lever for him come November.  what Obama supporters don't seem to realize is that their false, sexist and positively vitriolic attacks on Hillary have driven away half the party.  your demands that we fall in line behind BO are so filled with entitlement that it just ain't gonna happen.  it ain't over until the lady in the pantsuit says it is.  until that day, I am a staunch Dem.  after that, not so much.  what I, as a working class Latino with pressing economic concerns, have in common with rich kids and their elitist parents is zilch.

by joker 2008-05-31 04:44PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama gets out of Trinity

That lady in the pantsuit is the richest of them all. You're whole schtick is really funny btw!

by heresjohnny 2008-05-31 04:47PM | 0 recs
Oh the irony

Gotta love it when a Clinton supporter whines about Obama feeling entitled to the nomination. Heh heh.

This post is so filled with lies and half-truths I have to laugh.

by elrod 2008-05-31 05:19PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama gets out of Trinity

Don't you understand that the "supporters" who bother you don't have anything to do with Obama or his platforms? That you are reacting to a very small number of people?

So, out of spite or dislike, you are willing to allow McCain to stack the Supreme Court, and remain in Iraq, and continue to run our devastated economy into the ground?

Think beyond yourself. I don't like some HRC supporters' tactics, or some of her character flaws, but if she won the nomination, I would absolutely stand for her against four more years of this horrible crap that will go down in history as the worst administration in America.

by magnoliagirl 2008-05-31 05:49PM | 0 recs
Congrats all...

Hey, yeah congrats to those in the media that hounded the shut-ins and elderly members of a church.

Congrats to those that felt the need to intersperse themselves between a politician and his faith.

Congrats to those who have effectively hounded a politician out of his church. For toeing the media line of soundbites and missing context, for simplifying people to their worst, for guilt by association. For all the keyboard jockeys who sit and complain about the inadequacies of others while doing jack all to improve the place you live.

Shortsightedness has ruled the day.

by notedgeways 2008-05-31 04:52PM | 0 recs
Re: Congrats all...

I wish there were a higher mojo rating than 2. Bravo.

by vcalzone 2008-05-31 05:15PM | 0 recs
he didn't throw Trinity under any bus

Now that Barack has left can't you move along.  The Trinity Church of Christ is not hateful nor is it racist, and if there truly are Democrats that value having Black people in their coalition.  Leave the condemnations of the church and its worshippers now.

by Adept2u 2008-05-31 04:55PM | 0 recs
he didn't throw Trinity under any bus

Now that Barack has left can't you move along.  The Trinity Church of Christ is not hateful nor is it racist, and if there truly are Democrats that value having Black people in their coalition.  Leave the condemnations of the church and its worshippers now.

by Adept2u 2008-05-31 04:56PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama gets out of Trinity

But he still hasn't acknowledged that Clinton should not be treated the way she was personally in the priest's sermon, or by the multitude of other supporters of his who have attacked her personally. Until he does that, he can resign from 50 churches and it won't make a difference to me.

by Scotch 2008-05-31 04:56PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama gets out of Trinity

His response to that was pathetic at best.  Just more vague, meaningless platitudinal garbage.

by Juno 2008-05-31 05:04PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama gets out of Trinity

After wright-gate broke, I remember listening to Rush Limbaugh and he had on a Hillary supporting black pastor in New York.  What he said about Obama made this priest and Rev. Wright incredibly tame...

Shouldn't Hillary have to apologize for him, too?

Hillary hasn't been able to muster a kind word about Obama since February... and, yet, you are demanding.. INSISTING... that he somehow grovel at her feet after she and her surrogates have slimed him in every way imaginable and then some?  

Forget it!  As Chuck Todd has said, "It's no longer the Clintons' party anymore."

But, since you insist, let's put every surrogate and acquaintance on the table!  Personally, I'm waiting for an apology from Stehpanie Tubbs-Jones, who's district voted 80% for Obama, to apologize for the incredibly vile and demeaning things she's said about him.

by LordMike 2008-05-31 05:06PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama gets out of Trinity

Did I say apologize?  I want him to acknowledge that his personal friends and supporters are spewing hate about her, and denounce it.  I want him to use her name so that we all know he knows just what he is talking about.  If you want to consider that an apology, then go ahead.  His damn pride is going to cost him the election.  I thought humility and honesty was a Christian thing.  Did they teach him that anytime in 20 years in his church.  

And Clinton has said many times over that if Obama gets the nomination she will go out of her way to support him.  She has not said a single thing, nor have her supporters that have matched up to what his "fucking whore" yelling friend has or what Wright and the so called priest have at anytime. I have never seen the spectacle made by his supporters dancing and laughing behind the sermon that was given match anything that Hillary Clinton's supporters have done in the entire campaign.  He should show some embarrassment if he can't show anything else that he even has followers like that.

You aren't going to fool anyone into disbelieving their own eyes and ears with your words.

by Scotch 2008-05-31 05:16PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama gets out of Trinity

And the whole problem with this (which Republicans get and Obama supporters do not) is that it all totally negates Obama's claim that he can unite people, create all this change, compel people to end  divisive and negative politics...

He clearly cannot.  As you said, his fellow congregants were whooping it up as that weirdo was mocking a former First Lady, having the time of their lives.

The only inspiration I've seen from Obama is to turn his supporters into Republican-soundalike Clinton haters.

by Juno 2008-05-31 05:20PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama gets out of Trinity

If you are referring to Randi Rhodes, the radio talk show host who called Clinton a "whore," she was neither a friend or a campaigner for Obama. He had NOTHING to do with what she independently said. (By the way, she was fired). And even though I support Obama, I can admit with some open-mindedness that calling her a "whore" wasn't a respectful thing to do, and that Matthews can be a tool sometimes, and that Russert treated her unfairly in a debate.

Really, saying that Obama was "deeply disappointed" in the priest's comments wasn't enough for you?

You don't think that HRC saying that McCain was more qualified to be president than Obama was pretty much a scorched-earth thing that will give fodder to the Republicans?  Hillary didn't show any of the embarrassment you mention after being busted for making a fairy tale lie out of her experiences in Bosnia. Her supporters have been as ruthless, racist, and machiavellian as it gets.

Stop being so hypocritical and blind. You sound like a mad little kid standing there with your hands over your ears chanting, "I am not listening, I am not listening..."

by magnoliagirl 2008-05-31 05:40PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama gets out of Trinity

Very mature personal attack.

by Scotch 2008-05-31 05:51PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama gets out of Trinity

what does hillary's personal wealth have to do with anything?  if that isn't a typical Rethug kind of comment I don't know what is.  Hillary represents working class people through her policies.  standing up to the right wing maniacs.  defending social security from phony claims that it is in crisis.  trying to provide health care for all despite right wing attacks from BO.  giving us a gas tax holiday.  your guy is running on process and that's what appeals to his comfortable supporters.  they just don't get Hillary's focus on the economy because I guess things are just dandy for them so they can concentrate, broder-like, on the partisanship (a good thing) in DC and how politics is broken because of both parties.  working people know that republicans are what are broken and we want somebody who will fight for our economic interests not cave like a house of cards (see BO and Trinity Church).  so while you might think I have a "schtick" (typical Obama supporter with your personal attack), and you can plug your ears and hum all you want, my views represent a wide swathe of the party which can't be replaced and without whom an election can't be won.

by joker 2008-05-31 05:02PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama gets out of Trinity

Oh, yeah, hillary's just a regular joe... except she can't pump her own gas or make her own coffee... in fact, she doesn't even get dressed in the morning by herself...  

"Hillary represents working people through her policies..."

Let's take a closer look, shall we?

" standing up to the right wing maniacs.  "

She didn't stand up against the war or escalating attacks on Iran.

"trying to provide health care for all"

With romney-care that you are forced to buy no matter how much it costs..

"gas tax holiday"

This only makes the problems worse with a bandaid solutoin that won't even work!!!  but, heaven forbid we listen to experts on the subject... they're just worthless "elitists" like those fools that said we shodln't invade Iraq.

Things aren't "just dandy" for us, but orchestrating republican-type "tax cut" solutions to save pennies while costing us real dollars in the future is not only unwise it doesn't help her supposed constituency.

Her campaign is $20 million in debt, and she wants to run the national budget?  No thanks!

As for Trinity Church, Obama let them go as much for them as for him.  The ridiculous attacks related to that Church are a distraction to the campaign, but, more seriously, they hurt the church and its members.  They need peace for the ridiculous attacks that their members have received over the past few months.

by LordMike 2008-05-31 05:19PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama gets out of Trinity
means he acknowledged many months later, that his judgment was bad for many years, because this church produced the hatred and BS for a long long time.
It will not save him in November (if he gets into it), it rather will help to swift-boat him.
by engels 2008-05-31 05:08PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama gets out of Trinity

how many members of the church do you know?

by cardboard 1 2008-05-31 05:32PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama gets out of Trinity

What a very asshole thing to say.  That church has done a lot for the community.  Go away troll.

by yitbos96bb 2008-05-31 05:45PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama gets out of Trinity

Sounds like that's what you want to happen.  If so, all the best to you and your candidate John McCain.  You deserve each other.

by SpanishFly 2008-05-31 05:46PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama gets out of Trinity

I know you aren't a religious guy Jerome, so I doubt you really understand what its like for him to leave.  Doing it in March would have been a mistake... doing it only for political purposes.  THis is about his integrity and making the decision on personal terms rather than knee jerk reacting to the problem.  

by yitbos96bb 2008-05-31 05:42PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama gets out of Trinity

OMG
 Are you really that naive? Amazing!

One thing for sure is that the much ballyhooed cognitive dissonance of Bush supporters has infected the O supporters.

When Reason Sleeps, Nightmares are Possible

by bird52 2008-05-31 06:35PM | 0 recs
I think the damage has been done and this

is a bit too late, in my opinion. He could have eased himself slowly  from this bunch of wackos and without making too many waves like many people have advised him. Now, i feel like it is a bit too late and people will ask why he has waited until now to leave, why now and not then...and so forth.

Well, let's see how this thing will develop. It's a bit too early to assess it.

by likelihood zero 2008-05-31 05:54PM | 0 recs
Re: I think the damage has been done and this

True to my handle, I reply that it all depends on the media. If they continue to treat Obama under the normal set of rules, he will be guilty by association only regarding the acts of entities with which he currently associates. So dropping out of TUC should insulate him. If they switch him to the Clinton rules at some point, anything goes.

One reason for dropping TUC now is that it may be his last chance to do it with Hillary still in the race. The media has mistakenly thought they had destroyed her a couple of times, just to have her come back. They won't risk coming down too hard on Obama and reviving Clinton's chances again. So I think he will get pretty favorable coverage on this issue. The question is, what happens if/when she drops out or suspends?

by itsthemedia 2008-06-01 12:20AM | 0 recs
Re: I think the damage has been done and this

I agree with you partly. Even though the media will refuse to bring this issue back, the McCain campaign and some 527s will keep bringing it back up and therefore it will be covered.

A friend of mine who works in one of the St Louis local news channel told me that a 527 group out of Texas has been shooting an ad (man on the street kind of ad) about TUC and the topic of reparations (which that idiot father Pfleger refers to in his stupid rant). So, it will be the campaign and the 527s that will dictate the coverage and will force the media to cover what they want them to cover.

by likelihood zero 2008-06-01 07:13AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama gets out of Trinity

BHO's annoucement is a big deal and won't be glossed over by the RBC's decision today.  This is his church for 20 years and he's leaving?  Wow.

Of course, his core suporters don't mind, but the rest of the American general election public does care.  He'll be explaining this and the company he keeps until November.

It's just another reason why HRC will suspend her campaign, hold on to her delegates.  Then, we can all see how BHO performs for a couple of months as the "presumptive" nominee.

by Chicano 2008-05-31 07:05PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama gets out of Trinity

I think there should be a thread for Hillary Clinton supporters to vent over the loss of the election.

I see a lot of comments referring to the "hatred" promoted by the Trinity Church. Nothing that I have seen promotes this line of thought. Reverend Wright was venting too. After 9/11 so many people were in shock over why or how something like that could happen. Reverend Wright had to vent over that because he had experienced the awful and vileness of racism when he was coming up. It doesn't mean he was right, but to dismiss his point of view and the context it comes from by labeling it "hatred" kind of defeats the point Obama was trying to make in his speech on race.

Unless you want an Obama administration to be as hamstrung by every person with a grudge much like the Clinton administration in the 90s ended up being, then you will find reason to give him latitude when he has to "apologize for the world". As we move into the general there are going to be points where McCain is going to try to make him minimize the suffering of black people or any other minorities in this country as a wedge issue to get the white vote. Do you want Obama to be a party to this race baiting? Do you want Obama to control the initiative or get run over by it?

by wengler 2008-05-31 07:33PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama gets out of Trinity

Thank God!  I know there is probably a good reason why this church has 10,000 members - and I think there must be good works being done through the church, but any association with Trinity was going to cost us a lot of votes in November.  This helps remove that objection that some voters may have had to Obama.

by mikes101 2008-05-31 08:20PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama gets out of Trinity

Whats up father Phleger!!lol... What white-guilt ignorance.

by nzubechukwu 2008-05-31 08:50PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama gets out of Trinity

Trinty is not a church. It is a seething gladiator's pit of racial resentment. Complete with dancing preachers and audiences drunk with glee. It is religious macabre fueled by misguided theological extremism.

Ultimately this is about Barack Obama's leadership skills. Even the Catholic Cardinal quickly stepped up to the plate and slapped down Pfleger in no uncertain terms. Obama statements are a study in hemming and hawing, "who can I afford to offend least" seems to be his operational strategy.

The entire Democratic party has been bent and broken, the entire media (save for FOX) has rallied to his side, the entire elite of the country stand with him and he can't quite grab the laurel of leadership. Obama can no longer hide behind Clinton hatred. The klieg lights are turning in your direction Barack. You better step up to the plate.

by superetendar 2008-06-01 04:03AM | 0 recs

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