Missed opportunity by Obama

I'm not surprised that Michael Pfleger is on tape saying something idiotic, really stupid and sexist,  or that Obama had to quickly have his website scrubbed of reference to Pfleger, and that Pfleger had to step down from "Catholics for Obama". It was easy to see, during Wright, that Pfleger was the same sort or hater, and he proves it himself:

I don't really want to make this political, 'cause you know I'm very unpolitical [laughter], but when Hillary was crying, and people said that was put on, I really don't believe it was put on. I really believe that she just always thought: "This is mine." [applause] "I'm Bill's wife; I'm white; and this is mine! I just gotta get up and step into [sic] the plate." And then outta nowhere came: "Hey, I'm Barack Obama." And she said, "Aww, damn! Where did you come from?! I'm white! I'm entitled! There's a black man stealing my show!" [cheers and applause] Waaaaaaaah! [pretends to weep and cry; wipes face with hankie] Waaaaaaaah! She wasn't the only one crying; there was a whole lotta white people crying!"
With the relationship between Obama and Pfleger being longstanding and ongoing, Obama had to distance himself.

What I do find lacking is Obama's response to the hate on Clinton displayed by Pfleger:

"As I have traveled this country, I've been impressed not by what divides us, but by all that that unites us," he said in a statement. "That is why I am deeply disappointed in Father Pfleger's divisive, backward-looking rhetoric, which doesn't reflect the country I see or the desire of people across America to come together in common cause."
Instead of this rhetorical blah, what Obama should have done is taken the opportunity to making a call out against the most belligerent of his supporters, to stop making sexist and needless attacks on Clinton.

The Clinton camp noticed the very same thing:

"Divisive and hateful language like that is totally counterproductive in our efforts to bring our party together and have no place at the pulpit or in our politics. We are disappointed that Senator Obama didn't specifically reject Father's Pflegler's dispicable comments about Senator Clinton, and assume he will do so."

Obama's declaring victory again Tuesday night apparently, but he still can't figure out how to do basic outreach to his opponents supporters, and totally missed what this occasion called for doing. It's the same sort of avoidance of taking the main topic head on, that he initially showed with Jeremiah Wright.

Obama has problems with not only women in general, but specifically Democratic women, whom have a negative 35% opinion of Obama, up from 21% in Feb, according to Pew. His letting this Clinton-hating speech hang out there with no specific denouncement, by someone whom he has deep ties with, isn't helping his unity campaign.

Tags: Election 2008 (all tags)

Comments

402 Comments

Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

So where were you when Gerry Ferraro made her comments or how about the assassination comments?

by sweet potato pie 2008-05-30 08:06AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

In London for the former. I posted on the latter, saying how lame it was that it was even considered an issue.

by Jerome Armstrong 2008-05-30 08:08AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

So then why are you surprised that Obama and his supporters see this as a lame issue?

by sweet potato pie 2008-05-30 08:09AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

Actually, I am. They don't even compare.

by Jerome Armstrong 2008-05-30 08:11AM | 0 recs
No, they don't.

But probably not for the reasons you think.

by Dracomicron 2008-05-30 08:12AM | 0 recs
Re: the irony is that

race baiting, hate rhetoric, and blog hijacking

Citation needed.

by really not a troll 2008-05-30 09:15AM | 0 recs
Re: the irony is that

I especially find the accusation of blog hijacking to be hilarious.  No, die-hard Clinton-fans, you are simply in the minority.

by brathor 2008-05-30 09:24AM | 0 recs
Yes you will

The fact that you started posting anti-Obama rhetoric a week after the call went out for McCain bloggers suggests that you will, in fact, be voting for McCain.

I have never ever met an Obama supporter that was so turned off by "race baiting, hate rhetoric, and blog hijacking" that they stopped supporting him.  Obama supporters know that Obama has not done these things, and that the more vitriolic Obama supporters that DO do these things are not representative of him as a whole.

I hope Jerome realizes that you're no friend of his candidate or even Democrats and kicks you to the curb.

by Dracomicron 2008-05-30 09:32AM | 0 recs
show me your friends and I'll tell you who you are

I gave Obama the benefit of the doubt re: Wright but I've now started wondering why he chose to befriend them, what he feels he has in common with these hate mongers that he surrounded himself with them and what he really says behind doors while with them.

by suzieg 2008-05-30 06:56PM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

I ask this not as a dig, but in all seriousness. Do you consider yourself at all objective with regard to Clinton vs. Obama? Because, you certainly do not appear so, and I'm very curious as to whether you acknowledge bias, or could provide an explanation that would clarify your position.

by noop 2008-05-30 08:21AM | 0 recs
I decided a long time ago...

..that no matter what Jerome Armstrong thinks personally in regards to Clinton and Obama, that he has decided to professionally be "over the top" in his support for Clinton.  He has also professionally committed himself to providing a place where Clinton supporters can congregate.

by d 2008-05-30 08:35AM | 0 recs
Re: I decided a long time ago...

I think this is right.  It's how I reconcile Crashing the Gate with what I read on here.

And I came here for the Clinton supporters--to debate and discuss the future of the party.  I rarely read blogs where I agree with most of what's being said--what's the point?

by Koan 2008-05-30 09:09AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

You do realize you have zero journalistic credibility.

I mean, none, absolutely none anymore.

You're bordering on self-parody at this point.

by Deadalus 2008-05-30 09:03AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

Why so angry, so filled with rage? I thought Obama was about hope.

by doyenne49 2008-05-30 12:37PM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

That line's a bit worn, don't you think?

by Deadalus 2008-05-30 01:37PM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

More division and discord and rivalry. Yet more....

by doyenne49 2008-05-30 02:29PM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

We can't be critical at ALL because our candidate is about hope and positivity?

I don't follow the logic here.

by Deadalus 2008-05-30 04:09PM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

All you are is critical. Your candidate is about hate.

by doyenne49 2008-05-30 08:42PM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

Yet you have out-lamed everyone by whining about the semantics of Obama's condemnation of Rev. Pfleger's remarks.

by chicagovigilante 2008-05-30 08:11AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

Semantics? Ah no, bridging the divide is not about leaving out the specific damage.

by Jerome Armstrong 2008-05-30 08:14AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

But he did.  You don't think Obama denounced forcefully enough comments he neither a) made or b) heard made?

Or would it be that the only way possible Obama's "apology" would work is to mention Clinton specifically?  He's playing it very smart and not connecting himself to this- which is reasonable, because he isn't connected.

Borderline straw man garbage.

by ihaveseenenough 2008-05-30 08:22AM | 0 recs
His "denouncements" are what are getting

lame.  He has an arrogant and dissmissive air about him - we saw it in the NH debate with his "you're likeable enough" comment, then his whining about the press asking him too many questions, and now he thinks he can just wave his hand and make his 20-year associations with hateful religious leaders the likes of which I had thought were reserved for the Christian Right go away.  

I will say this.   I am committed to supporting our nominee whoever it is, but his margin for error with me is very narrow.  I like him less the more that I see of him and his associations.

by activatedbybush 2008-05-30 08:43AM | 0 recs
Hmmmm

Don't like his associations?

Such thinking comes from those with closed minds.

Because I have friends who are conservative in their thinking should I be condemned for my associations? Please.  This is a moronic statement.

by LtWorf 2008-05-30 10:25AM | 0 recs
Re: Hmmmm

I have no con friends at all, I do know some RW assholes, but would never consider them friends, so yes, you should be condemned for the company you keep.

by muggle 2008-05-30 11:13AM | 0 recs
Re: Hmmmm

Is this snark?

by LtWorf 2008-05-30 11:51AM | 0 recs
Re: Hmmmm

No, not snark. You're known by the company you keep, is still how a lot people judge you, and is, as it should be.

by muggle 2008-05-31 06:37PM | 0 recs
Re: Hmmmm

More rage from the Obama faction. Do you not have any hope to spread?

by doyenne49 2008-05-30 12:38PM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

When someone says Obama isn't "connected" to these ranting, hate spewing "ministers", one can only assume they either don't read, watch or listen.

by Tolstoy 2008-05-30 09:16AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

If one were to read my comment, I am saying Obama isn't "connected" to the so-called offensive comments.  At all.

Also, you should consider looking into this "ranting hate spewer" before you parrot Republican talking points.  I'm sorry he didn't like your candidate, and he did say something stupid.

Let's see...

He has:
-Been a strong anti drug, tobacco, and alcohol campaigner for years.

-Won support for buying time for prostitutes as means of inviting them to counseling and job training sessions (and repeating with drug users).

How about women's rights?

He has fought campaigns against Howard Stern and Jerry Springer ("Calling a woman a ho and a bitch is sick. This is not normal behavior,"), and excessively sexist rap music ("When you disrespect women and you continue to demean a community or race by names and by language, that's unacceptable. . . . We can kill with our words").

So no- you don't get to Reverend Wright this guy.  He's done more good than about 99% of the people who post on this site, and you want to reduce him to a "ranting, hate-spewing" minister because he said something silly about your candidate?

No.

by ihaveseenenough 2008-05-30 09:28AM | 0 recs
Another Example
He has:
-Been a strong anti drug, tobacco, and alcohol campaigner for years.

of the two-faces of Barack Obama.  He's a smoker.
by creeper1014 2008-05-30 10:34AM | 0 recs
Re: Another Example

That's the pastor, not Obama.

Guess that pastor doesn't have much influence at all, now does he???

by ihaveseenenough 2008-05-30 10:40AM | 0 recs
Re: Another Example

Damn Obama smokes.  Hide the kids.  Nasty habit, yes, totally legal.  By the way, Laura Bush is a smoker too.

by temptxan 2008-05-30 10:55AM | 0 recs
not connected? How about putting him in charge of

his "Catholics for Obama" committee? He's known him and been friend with him over a dozen of years!

by suzieg 2008-05-30 06:59PM | 0 recs
Re: not connected? How about putting him in charge

Yes!  Yes he has.  Not connected to the COMMENTS.  Can't you read that?????

And take a look at my diary- you can see all the terribly awful things Pfleger has done throughout the years.

by ihaveseenenough 2008-05-30 09:19PM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

Yaknow what would bridge the divide?

Certain bloggers not taking their time to widen it at every opportunity.

That would bridge the divide better then anything Obama could do.  

by Lawyerish 2008-05-30 08:23AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

Oh right. Sure. A blog that has readers who already have their mind made up and don't take their cue from other writers... they are gonna matter more than what Obama says, sure, whatever.

by Jerome Armstrong 2008-05-30 08:27AM | 0 recs
You don't give yourself enough credit

A lot of folks who never post or even register come here for news.  I did before I joined.

You help to shape public sentiment more than you realize.

by Dracomicron 2008-05-30 08:38AM | 0 recs
Re: You don't give yourself enough credit

Not to mention those (admittedly poorly done) "around the blogs" segments we see sometimes. They'll be happy to use this as more evidence that "democrats are divided and hate their nominee!!!11"

Note: I'm not suggesting self-censoring all posts so that the media can't abuse them - which is obviously impossible. But it's disingenious to assume that no one's opinion is affected by the front page posts.

I get most of my news from blogs such as this one. I expect some measure of bias in all them, but I'm happier when it's self-acknowledged.

by really not a troll 2008-05-30 08:45AM | 0 recs
oh come on, that is so funny
the fact is that 99 percent of democrats have never read any blog much less this one.  Go to any campaign office and ask the staff and most of them have never even heard ot dkos or mydd much less read or posted on either.
People who blog have a very unrealistic idea about how important they are in the scheme of things.
by Teacher1956 2008-05-31 02:41AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

Draco is correct.  I did the exact same thing for a long time.

As an opinion leader, you have a responsibility to do what is best for the party - IF you purport to be interested in supporting the Dems winning this cycle.  This means at some point you need to LAY OFF the criticism of Obama.  

By providing a safe place for Obama-haters to gather, for those who claim that they will vote for McCain to try and convince others to, you are actively hurting our chances this Fall.  

You can stop this in a second.  Make it perfectly clear that once Obama is the nominee, you won't tolerate Cassandras and Doomsdayers.  That you are interested in getting Dems elected.  You haven't had much criticism of Clinton at all this cycle, and that's understandable; she's your choice for candidate.

Well, she's about gone, and now OBAMA is going to be your candidate.  It's about time that people started treating him that way, and yeah, that includes bloggers who do drive opinion, such as yourself.  

by Lawyerish 2008-05-30 08:44AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

kos hating Hillary and embracing sexist attacks would go a long way.

Would I vote for BO? Yes.

Will I give a cent, a minute, or a word in his favor? No. It will be a waste. We had to Again choose the worst candidate in the primary.

by redwagon 2008-05-30 11:46AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

With all due respect you could do more to heal the rift in the party. I wouldn't underestimate your influence on cyber opinion. You seem to relish widening the divide for some reason.

by wasder 2008-05-30 10:34AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

And Hillary hasn't condemned the racist bigot known as Geraldine Ferraro yet you critize Obama for not condemning hard enough.

double standards.

Also I must say I am dissapointed this is what you posted on and not the flood of trash the McBlogger team has put on your site.

by CrushTheGOP2008 2008-05-30 08:26AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

Ferraro's comments - "He's lucky to be black" - were ignorant at best.

I wouldn't go so far as to call her a racist bigot. But she made ignorant remarks, as extremely dedicated supporters of any candidate may make from time to time.

by really not a troll 2008-05-30 08:59AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

Okay, I never heard Kerry or Obama mutter that kind of hate speech.

Ferraro offends EVERY American.

Look I was raised with certain values, blame it on the liberal elementary school where the civil rights movement and attrocities commited against minorities as things that were UNFORGIVABLE and UNREPEATABLE.
They forced that stuff down our throat and I thank them for that.

So yes, I will do whatever I can do to crush that, even if the person claims to be a democrat.

As soon as Ferraro realizes she wont be VP, she will replace that hideous woman on Fox that joked that Obama and Bin Laden need to be assasinated with equal priority.

Think about that and realize why Democrats are mad at Hillary for dragging our party through the mud.

We had a Glorious Race Card in our back pockets for Republicans, they are a party built on racism and racial violence and the culture that surrounds it.
I am sure that Ferraro hates the fact that AA vote for Dems 95% of the time.

by CrushTheGOP2008 2008-05-30 09:00AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

Ferraro is a vile racist pig.

Nothing Kerry has said has even come close.

by Aris Katsaris 2008-05-30 09:14AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

Yes, double standard, exactly.

Shouldn't Hillary be doing some stuff to heal the rift too?  If Jerome has pointed that out, I've missed it.

by acujimmy 2008-05-30 11:02PM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

To be clear, are you saying that GF's comments aren't problematic?  If so, I am shocked.  If, on the other hand, you're merely saying they don't reflect on Senator Clinton directly, then I largely agree.  

As to this "scandal," I suppose Obama could have done a better job of handling it, but I think your own dislike for Obama may be leaking through here Jerome.  This really isn't any different than GF continuing to slam Obama for his "reverse racism," or that union head in Ohio characterizing Obama as a latte drinking, prius driving, out of touch liberal during his introduction of Senator Clinton.  None of that is good for the party, of course, but it happens during primaries.  

Finally, Obama now has a problem with women?  Hyperbole much?  We're still in the middle of a primary.  Senator Clinton maintains a loyal base of supporters, many of whom are women.  Of course her supporters don't love Obama right now.  Dean folks didn't exactly love Kerry when that race was still viable either.  Forgive me if I'm unwilling to extrapolate that to a "problem with women" for Obama.

by HSTruman 2008-05-30 08:38AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

hyperbole much?  Hell, last friday and even throughout this week, there were people who BELIEVED that Hillary wanted Obama killed

that is a hell of lot worse than what Jerome stated.

by colebiancardi 2008-05-30 08:55AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

I've yet to see any of these people. I've seen lots of accusations about how numerous and horrible they are, but I don't think I've actually seen anyone arguing that Clinton wants Obama killed. I've seen people suggest that it's extremely improper for a candidate to come anywhere close to alluding to the assassination of anyone - something that Senator Clinton herself acknowledged.

by really not a troll 2008-05-30 09:02AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

huh, they were all over like flies on shit this past weekend & through this week.

by colebiancardi 2008-05-30 09:24AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

Links would be helpful.

by really not a troll 2008-05-30 09:36AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

I think you could look at my comments section from friday and this weekend  and see my responses, which should led you back to the threads in question.

by colebiancardi 2008-05-30 11:12AM | 0 recs
not now or ever! Women can smell a fake a mile

away because we've been around men long enough to have learned our lesson!

by suzieg 2008-05-30 08:50PM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

Clearly, Jerome, you and I live in an alternate universe.  I happen to agree with you completely.  It comes as no surprise to me then that the most recent Pew poll finds Obama's support among white women to be slipping.  It also comes as little surprise that among men his support has suffered little.  Men don't get it but I suspect the will come mid-November.

by goldberry 2008-05-30 10:28AM | 0 recs
Did I miss something?

I have yet heard Hillary asking her supporters to stop the Obama bashing, nor has she apologized to Obama for any of the poor remarks that has come from her or her aides.

You reference his approval rating that has dropped among women since February.  Yeah I agree it has and I contribute it to your candidate...that is when she started her scorched earth, kitchen sink strategy and proceeded to divide the party and make this nomination about race and gender in order to stop Obama's momentum.  So yes..you have a group of women hating Obama and a group of blacks hating Clinton and other supporters on both sides angry that this kind of crap is going in intra party in the first place.  I will be just too happy when this thing is over with...Our party has become as sleezy, mean spirited, and divisive if not more so than the republican party.

by netgui68 2008-05-30 08:25AM | 0 recs
Re: Did I miss something?

Am I the only one seeing 2.00 / 0's? Does this indicate that the users who gave 2.00's lost rating rights?

by really not a troll 2008-05-30 08:38AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

Sigh.  

This complaint about Pfleger reminds me of Hillary's silly complaint that Barack did not reject and denounce Farrakhan.  That was absurd on its face, but way, way over the top given that Hillary's top supporter in PA was Ed Rendell, a man who shared the stage with Farrakhan and praised him as a leader and man of vision.  The rankest of hypocrisy.

The Clinton campaign stands firmly against gotcha politics and guilt by association - unless they can use it against somebody else.

by TL 2008-05-30 09:34AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

Interesting, I didn't hear you chastise Clinton or her campaign for not apologising to Obama about the whole RFK comment which many interpreted as just as distasteful and hatful as this stuff.

What's up Jerome, why not hold a similar standard for both campaigns?

by Why Not 2008-05-30 08:07AM | 0 recs
Is this the talking point?

You should read what I wrote on that manufactured story first.

by Jerome Armstrong 2008-05-30 08:09AM | 0 recs
re:

There was nothing to apologize for.  The comment she made in reference to RFK had absolutely nothing to do with Obama.  

by Double Standard 2008-05-30 09:04AM | 0 recs
Re: re:

Not to throw a wrench in your argument, and for the record I don't think Clinton intended it in this way, but many have taken this assination comment to heart.  They cite the wording she used where she specifically spoke about the assasination and didn't really say anything explicitly about the long and drawn out campaing.

Her comment was specifically that RFK "..was assasinated in June..." and after that there wasn't a word about how the campaign was running, just that she didn't understand it.

Based on this wording I can see how people could easily think that she saying she was staying in the race because she was there in case this happened to Obama.  So while she did not invoke Obama explicitly, she also didn't explicitly state the '68 campaign went into June.  She said RFK was assasinated in June.

Now raising the specter of assasination in a presidential politics is a big mistake, and her words (intentionally or not) draws a direct connection to Obama since the relevance of assasination is that it would, in effect, give her the nomination.  This is the unintended rationalle for coninuing the campaign (into June).

So as you can see above, there is a very real reason for her to apoligize for invoking assasination while implying Obama.  I, personally, do not think she meant it in this way.  

I understand Clinton's reluctance to apologize to Obama since he is competing against her for the nomination.  But I do not see how it is reasonable to have a call for to have Obama apoligize for words that he didn't say and doesn't agree with, and not have the same call for Clinton on words that she said, conisidered wrong, and apoligized to others over (while disregarding the very real implication that was unintentionally tied to those words).

So yes there was something to apologize for, she did apologize, just not to all the people that she probably should have.

by Why Not 2008-05-30 10:12AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

So when this pastor called Clinton white and that she was entitled to the coronation, it's sexist? What an interesting and opportunistic interpretation.

Fake outrage strikes again! It's going around a lot!

by comingawakening 2008-05-30 09:43AM | 0 recs
I found his

statements more like  very cynical observations, but I would not consider them to be hate filled.  Calling someone a crybaby is not hateful, maybe a little insensitive and disrepectful, but it is line with the Obambi,no balls, wuss, weak, characterizations that have been thrown around by other sides.

Yes this is a ferocious battle indeed, but this is just some more gotchas that supporters can snatch out of the airwaves and toss like grenades to the other side (or other inner side).  

Both sides are doing this and it is soooo old, doesn't anyone feel like doing anything else?

Where is Travis Stark, do you have any leftover virtual margarita's?  

by KLRinLA 2008-05-30 10:24AM | 0 recs
Re: Double Apology

The Obama campaign owes Hillary Clinton an apology on this one too -- for spreading the lie that she made a comparison between BHO and RFK.  A bold-faced lie circulated by Obama campaign spokesman Burton.

by moevaughn 2008-05-30 12:30PM | 0 recs
Re: Double Apology

Is this snark?

Seriously?

ok fine that was a little uncalled for, but please take a look at what you're saying here.

While there was no direct explict line drawn to Obama, there was certainly an implied line drawn since Obama is her opponent and this is one scenario where she would get the nomination.  Hence there is no lie here.  Just willful ignorance of something that many people (not only some people in the Obama camp) were justified in inferring.  I would hope it wasn't intentional, but it was there, it was percievable, and people from all stripes picked up on it.

So please reconsider when you start throwing around words like "lie" when in this case there was no "lie".  Clinton deserves no apology for the RFK flap, it was of her own making.  Obama did not make the link between the two.  This was a product of her poor choice in words and how they were interpreted by people at large.

by Why Not 2008-05-30 02:13PM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

Cue the Obama supporter pile on.

At least this time Obama was quick to distance himself from Pfleger's statements, and recognize it as divisive. Coming from Obama that is progress.

by souvarine 2008-05-30 08:08AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

Certainly if you compare it to Clinton's handling of Geraldine Ferraro.

by Jess81 2008-05-30 08:23AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

Yea if I remember right, she took a week, and kind of condemned her.

And Ferraro has come out and bloodied Clinton's reputation several times over, each rant more bigoted than the last.

Why does Hillary let her do it?

by CrushTheGOP2008 2008-05-30 08:27AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

Loyalty.

It's hard to denounce someone who has supported you so faithfully, even when you were down. Even when what they say is obviously idiotic, you can't help but feel that you owe them.

by really not a troll 2008-05-30 08:40AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

Might this "loyalty" explain some of Obama's handling of Wright?  I fully agree that the things that Wright said were FAR WORSE than the things that Ferraro said, but to me, loyalty is always a hard factor to deal with when these things happen close to home.

by sasatlanta 2008-05-30 08:57AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

I also want to ask this. What did Wright say that was more offensive than G.F.? Wright said something ignorant (AIDS rant), but criticizing the country's foreign policy is more offensive than G.F.'s statements how?

by pacopoolio 2008-05-30 09:36AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

While I agree with really not a troll that playing the "who is more offensive" game is not a great idea, I'll still answer the question since you asked.

Personally, I think Wright's comments which included accusations of systematic murder and rabid racism were far more offending than Ferraro's comments which generally addressed treatment of Obama and Clinton during the course of a political campaign.

I did not like what either of them had to say, but talking about murder and chickens coming home to roost is worse than saying one candidate is being treated better than another.

I know some defenders of Wright will argue that the statements were true or were taken out of context, and I agree to some extent, but not enough to not think they were still offensive.  I do think Ferraro's original comments were intended to disparage Obama's candidacy, though they did not question his character.  Her subsequent comments about sexism pissed me off, but they just don't compare to accusations of murder and "God Damn America!".

by sasatlanta 2008-05-30 11:33AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

By the way, you have the best sig line BY FAR!!!

by sasatlanta 2008-05-30 08:58AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

What did Wrigt say that was more offensive that the trash by Ferarro?

by CrushTheGOP2008 2008-05-30 09:02AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

See my response above to someone else's similar question.

by sasatlanta 2008-05-30 11:34AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

Thank you :-)

I think it's probably a bad idea for us to get into the "who was more offensive" game - since we end up trying to work out arcane offensiveness equations.

offensiveness(statement) absurdity of the statement multiplied by size of group offended divded by the sume of time (in hours) for the candidate to response and the forcefulness of the response in kilo-Broders times the personal distance between the offender and the candidate (measured in Kilo-Kevin-Bacons)...

by really not a troll 2008-05-30 09:06AM | 0 recs
What I want to know is

When is Hillary Clinton going to start distancing herself from Hillary Clinton?  

by ProfessorReo 2008-05-30 08:29AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

Obama has praised Clinton many, many times in the last few weeks- does he really need to be so specific in his rejection of Pfleger's statements?  I don't think this is much of a story.

by ACrawf2 2008-05-30 08:08AM | 0 recs
Quick question?

Do you want Obama to win?

The way you drum up controversy in your front page posts would seem to indicate otherwise. Do you honestly think he won't be our nominee? Because if you don't, you seem to be trying to drive the Democratic candidate for President into the ground.

by chicagovigilante 2008-05-30 08:09AM | 0 recs
Re: Quick question?

It is pretty clear that Jerome wants Obama to win, should he become the nominee. That is why he is pointing out this problem with Obama's campaign. I think we can all assume Obama wants to reach out to women, and the evidence suggests that he is having trouble reaching women. We have to understand what is wrong with Obama's outreach before we can discuss how he could fix it.

by souvarine 2008-05-30 08:14AM | 0 recs
Re: Quick question?

No, Jerome is nitpicking. Barack Obama doesn't have to apologize for what other people do. He correctly distanced himself from Fr. Pfleger's remarks. Jerome is simply trying to make this more than it actually is (probably because he's angry that the candidate he has shilled for lost).

by chicagovigilante 2008-05-30 08:19AM | 0 recs
Re: Quick question?

If Obama had problems with what was being said, he'd want to apologize to make clear he doesn't approve of this kind of rhetoric. What Jerome is pointing out, is that Obama and his supporters clearly do approve of this rhetoric, or they would take a stand against it.

All Obama has to say is - I'd like to apologize to my opponent for the offensive screed that was unleashed against her on my behalf. No one who has worked as hard as Hillary Clinton considers themselves "entitled" and historically, white women have achieved breakthroughs after black men - whether it's the right to vote, the right to own property in your own name or the right to credit. Let us recognize, as she has repeatedly, that both of our candidacies are equally historic and knock this off.

Why doesn't he say that? If he apologizes to Clinton, it lets people know not to do it again. He didn't apologize for Wright's remarks and so why would anyone at that church think they were inappropriate?

I'll tell you what - I think Obama is happy to have people talking like that on his behalf and only moves away from them when he has no choice. This is why so many Clinton supporters regard him with contempt - because he is contemptuous of us and our candidate. Now how does he win if half the party despises him?

by glitterannebegay 2008-05-30 08:27AM | 0 recs
Re: Quick question?

He doesn't, which goes over the head of many of his supporters here.

by Jerome Armstrong 2008-05-30 08:30AM | 0 recs
Re: Quick question?

This was not on Obama's behalf.  Period.  

This wasn't said at an Obama rally.
This wasn't said by Obama.
This wasn't said with Obama in the room.

EXAMPLE:  I just told one of my co-workers that I thought someone was an idiot because of something I read on MyDD.  Someone videotaped me saying this and put it on YouTube.  

Now, does that mean Jerome has to apologize to that person for what I said?

by ihaveseenenough 2008-05-30 08:41AM | 0 recs
Re: Quick question?

And how does SHE win if half the party has no use for her?

Let's get real, Jerome. The one person who could end all of this petty bullshit and unite this party behind our nominee is named Hillary Clinton. In one grand speech Wednesday afternoon, she can call off the dogs, do something magnanimous, and tell her supporters in no uncertain terms that it is time to put our differences aside and work to elect Democrats up and down the ballot, pledging her full and unqualified support for Obama. In fact, had she chosen the high road 2 months ago, rather than trailing bait like Farrakhan, Ayers, Wright, Ferraro, "white people", "shame on you", NAFTA, etc. - she'd probably be the nominee by now. That's the part that seems to be lost on the Clinton dead-enders. The only person who's really been stirring up anti-Obama sentiment is Hillary herself, and you're taking that bait, too.

She can continue with this St. Joan charade or she can recognize the right thing and do it. What would you prefer?

BTW, "Clinton winning the nomination" is no longer an option, in case you haven't heard. I trust you're smart enough to understand why time travel is still politically impractical.

by SuperTex 2008-05-30 08:52AM | 0 recs
Re: Quick question?

Obama isnt' entitled to the nominatiion, and clinton calling off her campaign would hurt Obama's ability to unify the party. Clinton, however, is entitled to take it to the convention and Obama beating her fair and square in a floor fight is his best chance at winning us over.

As for how does Clinton win - the answer is very simple. She holds on to the big, blue states she already has won, and wins in the swing states she's ahead in. And if Obama supporters desert, boo hoo hoo - she can win without them, because an awful lot of them are in red states we aren't going to take anyway.

Red states - aye, there's the rub. States where bigotry still flourishes are the states where Obama does well. What surprise is there in that?

by glitterannebegay 2008-05-30 08:58AM | 0 recs
Re: Quick question?

That's the lamest trollery I've ever read on here. In Texas, we'd call such oblivious, parallel-universe nonsense "aggy".

by SuperTex 2008-05-30 09:10AM | 0 recs
Re: Quick question?

Obama does well in states where bigotry flourishes. Yep, sure. That's why he soared by 20 points in Appalachian states, crushing Hillary's racially transcendent message -- and tanked in states like Oregon. It's why he does so poorly in racially diverse cities. Yeah, Obama has a racial diversity problem.

I see a demographic map different from yours.

by LAM 2008-05-30 09:16AM | 0 recs
Wow

I think Obama is happy to have people talking like that on his behalf and only moves away from them when he has no choice.

That's wildly inaccurate from everything that's publically known about Obama.

by Dracomicron 2008-05-30 08:40AM | 0 recs
The crowd was going wild when

Pflager was speaking.   Like red meat to the lions.   As the Kos Street Prophets Blog states, "The Right Doesn't Own Faith" -- it also doesn't own hateful, religiously-shrouded bigotry.  Obama's got a share of that in his camp.  Words are cheap, 20 year associations are not so much.   I think that he needs to do a better job of explaining his relationship with Wright and Pflager.    We're lucky that McCain has his own problems in this area too.

by activatedbybush 2008-05-30 08:49AM | 0 recs
Re: Quick question?

Watch out,  gang.  Chicagovigilante got banned for speaking truth to Jerome.

Good ole Joe McCarthy's got his banning powers out in full force today.

by Deadalus 2008-05-30 09:19AM | 0 recs
Re: Quick question?

But is there REALLY a problem reaching women?  The majority of his voters have been women.

I think the problem isn't with Obama- it's with Bill getting on TV and declaring Obama sexist.  It's with Hillary complaining about the "treatment" she's gotten.  And now the blog audience (us- who ARE tradtionally more informed than Joe "got my 5 minutes worth on CNN" or Jane Average) reads this, over and over, and declares "Obama has a woman problem!!!".

Obama has no woman problem.  Obama has no white problem.  Obama has a Clinton supporter problem, one that, for the most part, will be resolved by next week.

by ihaveseenenough 2008-05-30 08:38AM | 0 recs
Re: Quick question?

Hillary Clinton has a lot of supporters. While most of them would support Obama as the nominee a growing portion of them would not. Obama will lose the general election if that portion is anywhere near the size it appears to be now.

Blaming Hillary Clinton or her husband for defending themselves is counterproductive. If Obama wins the nomination Hillary Clinton has repeatedly said she will campaign her heart out for him. But many of her supporters would be looking to Obama to explain himself, not Clinton.

by souvarine 2008-05-30 08:51AM | 0 recs
Re: Quick question?

I agree, mostly.  Clinton supporters are a-o-k in my book- supporting your candidate is not a problem.  But what, exactly, do you want him to do?  He's not attacking Clinton, he's barely responding to her attacks, and he's focusing on McCain.  

He's not publicly calling for her to get out, he's not organizing counter-protests in front of the DNC, and he's not making sexist comments.  Period.  

Bill isn't defending Hillary, he's complaining.  That's stirring the pot, and frankly, likely creating more of a problem.

What EXACTLY do you want Obama to do?  I'm sorry, but he's not going to get on TV and take responsibility for every man that's ever said something sexist directed towards women.  It's not his fault, and painting him that brush is disingenuous and silly.

by ihaveseenenough 2008-05-30 08:55AM | 0 recs
Re: Quick question?

I want him to say very simply - Hillary, there's been a lot of misogyny unleashed in your direction on my behalf - and for that, I am very sorry. I hold you and your supporters in high esteem, and this does not reflect the better angels of politics that my campaign has been talking about. To my supporters - knock it off. This kind of misogyny is as anti-human and as deadly as the racism we have discussed. I know supporters get carried away but this kind of rhetoric is beyond the pale. I don't want this kind of hate being engaged in in my name. Period.

What on earth could be the problem with him saying something that simple? I'll tell you what - he's counting on misogyny to put him over the edge and he can't cramp the hate without limited his ability to win.

by glitterannebegay 2008-05-30 09:02AM | 0 recs
Re: Quick question?

But he's ALREADY pretty much over the edge.  He's not counting on misogyny, he's counting on voters, which he has.  A lot of Clinton supporters seems to think it's boys versus girls right now, which is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

A lot of Obama supporters, just FYI, think that Hillary and supporters have played the sexism card incredibly excessively.  And is still doing it, trying to drive a wedge in the Democratic party with that card for reasons unknown.

The truth is likely somewhere in the middle.  People associated with Obama's campaign said something stupid, and Clinton's campaign took advantage.  Similar to how people with Clinton's campaign have said things that are stupid, and Obama's campaign took advantage.

I think the apology you wrote for him above is moderately reasonable, but needs to be altered a bit- because it isn't his fault.  He also isn't talking about Clinton right now, as per strategy.  Much as her campaign wants him to, it's not about her anymore.  He'll make a conciliatory speech after the nomination is sewn up, but it'd be bad strategy to do it before.

by ihaveseenenough 2008-05-30 09:13AM | 0 recs
Re: Quick question?

Clinton's campaign hasn't engaged in racism and obama's campaign has engaged in misogyny. These are definable things - and Clinton saying that Obama's opposition to the war is a fairytale, just isn't racist on any planet.

Obama's campaign have used race baiting against Clinton as well as misogyny. And misogynists never think that they're engaging in misogyny. But Obama has directly.

Go ahead - ignore it. It just means there is a big swatch of solid Democratic voters you can't get. And no matter how you slice it, twice as many Clinton supporters who are centered in big blue states we need to win - are saying that they will not vote for obama should he be the  nominee. You might want to think about that.

by glitterannebegay 2008-05-30 09:23AM | 0 recs
Re: Quick question?

I disagree.  Clinton's campaign has indeed engaged in racism along the lines of how Obama's campaign has engaged is misogyny.  What line is that?  Not very much, not usually from the candidate, and not a serious factor in either's.

But now you're saying that Clinton DIDN'T do any such thing, and not only that, WE played the race card.  Sounds like sour grapes.

Look, this has been a long, brutal primary.  And yeah, we probably lost a few Democrats because of it.  But I think those wounds will heal quickly, and those that cling to something said in the heat of a primary are going to quickly find themselves marginalized out of their own party, which won't bother them, since they turned they back on it themselves.

by ihaveseenenough 2008-05-30 09:38AM | 0 recs
Re: Quick question?

Please cite examples of Obama's campaign being misogynist since you bring it up. No empty statements here. And what you cite must be from the campaign itself and not "random commenters on blogs."

by pacopoolio 2008-05-30 09:41AM | 0 recs
Re: Quick question?

Really?  And when did HRC apologize for imploring the SuperDs for voting for her because she can bring the 'hard working Americans, white Americans'?

by MelB 2008-05-30 10:20AM | 0 recs
Re: Quick question?

And George Bush thanks you for his electorial loss in 2000!!

by Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle 2008-05-30 09:35AM | 0 recs
Re: Quick question?

Are you a troll?  Of course I want the Democratic nominee to win. You know, I gotta feeling we are going to be doing some serious housecleaning here of the Obama supporters who think there can be no criticism of Obama at all.

by Jerome Armstrong 2008-05-30 08:22AM | 0 recs
that is not productive, Jerome

I've criticized Obama on a few issues, and so have other Obama supporters, but to think we don't criticize him at all is silly.

by slinkerwink 2008-05-30 08:24AM | 0 recs
Re: Quick question?

People just get the wrong idea, when Clinton is NEVER criticized by the same who think it's cool to criticize Obama on a daily or weekly basis.

Once Obama is the nominee - in about 5 days or so - are you going to purge the dead-ender Cassandras, who pronounce doom constantly upon the party for picking him?

by Lawyerish 2008-05-30 08:25AM | 0 recs
Re: Quick question?

LOL.  I don't know if the software allows self bans.

by The Animal 2008-05-30 08:29AM | 0 recs
Threats

So people who speak up and say this site shouldn't be used to legitimize attacks on the Democratic nominee are going to be banned?

Whatever happened to "this site is dedicated to electing Democrats?"

by Hatch 2008-05-30 08:33AM | 0 recs
Re: Quick question?

Ridiculous GOP talking points on the rec list day, after day, after day... but it's the Obama supporters that need to be 'housecleaned'?

by Tatan 2008-05-30 08:50AM | 0 recs
Re: Quick question?

Jerome, I think you raise a good point. I think this idea that there can be no criticism of Obama at all is a serious drawback in gaining support from other dems. I know I feel this way.

by linfar 2008-05-30 08:55AM | 0 recs
Re: Quick question?

Would you also agree we need to houseclean Clinton supporters who think there can be no criticism of Clinton at all?  

You run this site and can do whatever you want, but I would love to hear an answer as to why your comment focuses only on Obama supporters when it is clear that both candidates have supporters who don't accept criticism.  

As an Obama supporter, I am certainly willing to accept criticism about him.  I think you are right that he should have reached out harder on this, though I also think HRC should have apologized to him.  Neither DID anything to the other (I agree the RFK criticism was over the top), but they are both unwilling to be particularly gracious with the other when these things happen (it's probably because they are extremely angry with each other; which I can understand).

I must also say that when a sweeping threat like you made addresses only one side when it clearly is an issue on both sides, it comes accross as showing severe bias for the supporters of your preferred candidate.

For my $0.02, I hope you don't think it is necessary to purge ANYBODY only because they refuse to accept criticism.  As long as everyone follows rules of civility as dictated by your web site when arguing, why can't everyone argue against criticism they don't agree with?

by sasatlanta 2008-05-30 09:09AM | 0 recs
Re: Quick question?

Yes, it will be interesting to see the housecleaning after Tuesday.

Right now, it is very difficult for a rational person to tell the difference between republican McCain trolls and Hillary supporters on this site.  They both use GOP talking points and quote Karl Rove's maps and math.  They both bash Obama with trivial or irrational arguments.  

What happens next week?

by rf7777 2008-05-30 09:11AM | 0 recs
Re: Quick question?

troll rated & its my first troll rating ever on this site.

you're better than that jerome.  or, you used to be.  if you didn't want obama supporters on here bursting your little reality bubble, you should've said so earlier.

feel free to delete my account.
s.

by synth 2008-05-30 09:19AM | 0 recs
Re: Quick question?

A purge? Dude... really? A purge of partisans of only one side? Because, you know, just spitballing here, if you where to actually institute a purge across the board on both sides based on what you just said you would probably lose a particular poster who ends up on the recc list ever day, even when they re-post old diaries.

Your site, do what you want, but that one-sided rhetoric by the admin is lame.

by notedgeways 2008-05-30 09:22AM | 0 recs
Re: Quick question?

>>>>I gotta feeling we are going to be doing some serious housecleaning here of the Obama supporters<<<<

Ha ha ha, Jerome. You're joking, right?

It's your playhouse, and everyone who doesn't agree can go home? But of course the Clinton supporters--and McCain trolls--who will seek the Democrats' defeat in November if Obama is the nominee will be A-OK here.

That's so sad....I can't believe how far you've fallen. It's almost Shakespearean, except that Shakespeare probably wouldn't use "gotta."

by JoeW 2008-05-30 09:26AM | 0 recs
Re: Quick question?

Uh oh, more house cleaning?

Jerome, I came to this site because dailykos got boring with its homogeneity.  I liked that there was actually still a discussion here (degenerated as it has lately).

But I barely rec and rate, because you've sufficiently chilled Obama supporters' desire to speak up in that form.  I can only speak for myself, but you might want to at least consider that aspect of how you regulate this site.

As for the comment...don't misunderstand the attitude of Obama supporters here.  I don't think Obama shouldn't be criticized.  I just think that, as far as double-standards go, this is pretty much the apex.  Obama said

I am deeply disappointed in Father Pfleger's divisive, backward-looking rhetoric

...now compare your lambasting of Obama on topics such as this to how you handled Clinton's Jesse Jackson comment, or the ongoing Ferraro fiasco, etc.

My perception is that you come down on Obama for things you never would have come down on Clinton for.  And, in that sense, you're not defending him as a Democrat as many of us expect you should.

And I still want dissenting opinions.  But fair dissenting opinions.

Go ahead and disagree...I just wanted to share my perspective.

by randomscientist 2008-05-30 09:34AM | 0 recs
Re: Quick question?

The issue is, quite obviously, that you seem to do NOTHING but criticize Obama.

I'm all for a eyes-wide-open look at our candidate and constructive criticism.  But when, over the course of many months, you post nothing but negative articles regarding Obama (our presumptive nominee), can you really be surprised when people question whether you want the Democrats to win this Presidency this year?

And I don't think I'm exaggerating here, I read this site every day and don't recall a single pro-Obama thing you've posted, well, ever.  Even if I've missed one, the ratio has to be at least 20-to-1, negative-to-positive.

by ChrisKaty 2008-05-30 10:04AM | 0 recs
Re: Quick question?

In all honesty, can you read what you wrote there and not see a glaring bias that effects, not only the reputation of this site among bloggers but gives support to the absolute worse among Clinton supporters right here who can accept no criticism on Clinton?

by shalca 2008-05-30 11:04AM | 0 recs
Re: Quick question?
Alas, this is the risk you take when you go out of your way to treat a vast portion of your constituency like $#%!  After a while, they do not want your candidate to win- under any circumstances.  
This is the point that Jerome is trying to make and which you do not seem to be getting.  
It is not enough for Obama to be just any Democratic nominee.  He has to be a person who I respect, who represents the core Democratic principles and he can not be seen to be treating the voters with contempt.  
This he has not done.  
To many of us in the base, there is a growing equivalence between John McCain and Barack Obama. Under either, we suffer.  So, we will deny you your fondest wish in the fall.  Next time, you'll be more careful not to f^&* with us.  
See if we don't.  ;-)
by goldberry 2008-05-30 10:39AM | 0 recs
Next Week?

At what point do you plan to stop attacking the Democratic nominee and fanning the flames of resentment, and instead start helping put a Democrat in the White House?

by Hatch 2008-05-30 08:09AM | 0 recs
Re: Next Week?

Attack?  gmab, this is calling out the lacking of bringing the party together.

by Jerome Armstrong 2008-05-30 08:14AM | 0 recs
I would love to see a diary

from you that does not 'call out' Obama or point out how he is getting it wrong.  We have republicans for that.  I would like to see one where you point out what he is doing right and why he will be a great president.

But that's just me.

by GFORD 2008-05-30 08:18AM | 0 recs
Re: Next Week?

Jerome:

The Obama campaign came out with a response IMMEDIATELY after they heard of the Pfleger comments, and Pfleger apologized. Then the Clinton camp attacked and said it wasn't enough. So retarded.

by slinkerwink 2008-05-30 08:18AM | 0 recs
Re: Next Week?

What did Obama say?

by mikes101 2008-05-30 08:27AM | 0 recs
Re: Next Week?

If Obama didn't apologize to Clinton, and tell people to knock it off, it wasn't enough.

by glitterannebegay 2008-05-30 08:30AM | 0 recs
This Is The Problem

Why should Obama have to apologize to Clinton about this?

Someone Obama knows said something that Obama did not repeat, or agree with, or condone in any way. Obama immediately announced that he thought Pfleger's comments were out of line.

Father Pfleger, who made the comments, was the one who needed to apologize to Clinton. And he did.

This is the absolute worst kind of guilt by association.

by Hatch 2008-05-30 08:41AM | 0 recs
Re: This Is The Problem

No one said he was guilty of anything. he should apologize because the screed happened in his name at  the church he brings his daughter's to. The act of apologizing establishes his standards and how he is willing for his opponent to be addressed on his behalf.

How many instances do we need of some speaker using the ugliest and most defamatory kinds of rhetoric imaginable against Clinton and an audience of Obama supporters yukking it up and cheering it on before Obama takes a personal stand against it? You don't see these incidents happening with Clinton supporters. I have yet to see an nationally known talk show host entertaining Clinton supporters by talking about what a fucking whore Michelle Obama is and dozens of Clinton supporters laughing about it. I have yet to see a church where Hillary attends have the retiring speaker mock Obama in the manner Wright did Clinton and have the congregation cheering him on. Clinton supporters don't behave like this. Obama supporters do. Obama needs to take a stand against this kind of bigotry being deployed on his behalf, just as we would expect a candidate who had racism deployed on their behalf. Obama hasn't been called "a fucking nigger" by a nationally syndicated radio show host, but Clinton's been called a "a fucking whore". And the Obama campaign and his supporters don't seem to understand that each of those are equally offensive.

by glitterannebegay 2008-05-30 08:51AM | 0 recs
Re: This Is The Problem

He should do it because that is what a great politician and great human being would do.  A divisive politician would do nothing.

by mikes101 2008-05-30 08:54AM | 0 recs
Obama must have been around these

guys (Wright and Pflager) when they spouted this stuff before.   It bothers me that he only chose to confront it when he was called out on it.   His wife's comment about never being proud of her country before bothers me as well.   With all of the opportunity that the Obamas received from this country, much of it with the help of those "privileged white people", I would expect them to be bigger boosters of the USA.  One can criticize the things we do wrong as a country without taking a crap all over it or associating with those who do.

by activatedbybush 2008-05-30 08:57AM | 0 recs
Re: Next Week?

"I mean, sure he threw the guy under the bus, but he could have backed over him a few more times, and why are there no studs on the tires?"

by fwiffo3 2008-05-30 08:24AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

It is a matter of charactor, values and basic civic virtue. A man of charactor with decent values would never have joined that church or been affiliated with such vile bigots in the first place.

Obama does not meet the basic level of decency required of anyone wanting to be the President of the Unitited States.

by Caliman 2008-05-30 08:09AM | 0 recs
Basic Level Of Decency?

Thank you, George Will.

by Hatch 2008-05-30 08:13AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

"A man of charactor with decent values would never have joined that church or been affiliated with such vile bigots in the first place."

Wow.  You really believe everyone who joined the Trinity United Church has no character or decent values?  I guess all the food and aid to Chicago's poor that has been passed out by that church doesn't mean much, huh?

by ACrawf2 2008-05-30 08:13AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

I guess guilt by association is back in style again.

by auronrenouille 2008-05-30 08:16AM | 0 recs
I wouldn't say that

But there is the concept of "bread and circus"

by activatedbybush 2008-05-30 08:50AM | 0 recs
Actually

Fr. Pfleger has probably done more for the cause of social justice than any other priest in Chicago. You're probably not a Chicago Catholic so I wouldn't expect you to know anything about him. His remarks were wrong but for you to call him a bigot without knowing anything about him is insulting as well.

by chicagovigilante 2008-05-30 08:15AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

You realize that this man was a Catholic priest... and you are now attacking Catholics for being Catholic, Hillary's most loyal group of followers!

by LordMike 2008-05-30 08:41AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

I know you didn't intend to insult. But us Catholics are not as stupid as you appear to assume.

by souvarine 2008-05-30 08:53AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

Well, this practicing Catholic is mighty pissed off!

by LordMike 2008-05-30 08:56AM | 0 recs
Re: I'm sick of this kind of crap!

Part of what Barack Obama's speech in Philadelphia was about is that our relationship with our religion and place of worship is complex.  We may find parts of our religion and place of worship offensive, but the religion and place of worship as a whole has brought much joy to our lives.

I, for example, have my entire life attended places of worship where only 10 men -- women do not count -- can begin a service.  [You probably know my religion by now.]  I find this incredibly offensive.  Does that mean I will stop attending such places of worship?  No.  For all that I find offensive at my place of worship, those places of worship where I pray have brought much joy to my life.  Those places have taught me about my social responsibility for the greater good of mankind; that to whom much is given, much is expected; that peace is better than war because life is better than death.  That is why I have continued to attend those types of places of worship -- my disagreement with some of their practices notwithstanding.

by Brad G 2008-05-30 08:45AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

Are you talking about the United Church of Christ or Catholicism?

I can't speak for the UCC, but I do know that there are lots of Catholics who believe lots of different things.  As a Catholic, am I accountable for every thing any Catholic priest says or does?  I sure as hell hope not.

Those of us who are religious all have different reasons for being part of different faith communities.  Our priests and ministers ALL have things they do well and that we agree with and areas where they're weak or blind and where we disagree.  

As a Catholic, I find this pillorying of Trinity and UCC deeply depressing. Now that the target is a white Catholic community activist, I can't help wonder when the hate machine will come for me and mine.

by mijita 2008-05-30 09:17AM | 0 recs
Yes it is. Absolutely. A matter of character.

"It is a matter of charactor, values and basic civic virtue."  You got that part right.

A woman of charactor with decent values would never have lied about her experience multiple times on video and then given the weakest of non-apologies.

A woman of charactor with decent values would never have pandered so publicly to those "hard working WHITE voters" or been affiliated with such vile bigots in the first place.

A woman of charactor with decent values would never have intruduced ASSASSINATION as a legitimate campaign topic in the first place.

Please direct your concern to what the CANDIDATES say, and give-up your guilt-by-association.

Clinton does not meet the basic level of decency required of anyone wanting to be the President of the Unitited States.

by Eman 2008-05-30 11:44AM | 0 recs
and the best YouTube of the week

Young Hillary Clinton

by Eman 2008-05-30 12:25PM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

So i see, Ferraro is a non issue, but this is.  Very interesting Jerome.

by Bobby Obama 2008-05-30 08:10AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

Interesting yes, Suprising no. Jerome is whiny ass tity baby. go fuck yerself jerome and go ahead and ban me from this 2nd rate blog.u r a joke . a shitty fucking joke.

by tommy 2008-05-30 06:16PM | 0 recs
Shameful

Father Pfleger's words re: Hillary's so-called white entitlement really go beyond the pale of respectfulness. It's amazing that someone who espouses post-racial coalition-building like Obama would be an affiliate of such thoroughgoing race-baiters. I mean is Clinton such the archetypal boogeywoman that she is deserving of such backhanded slams which supposedly serve to portray her demonic inner-workings? And in a house of God no less? I think not!

by Zeitgeist9000 2008-05-30 08:10AM | 0 recs
Re: Shameful

Pfleger was way out of line, and even he knows it.

But pretending that Obama shares these views is as dense as believing that Clinton shares the views of the Hillaryis44 crowd.

by really not a troll 2008-05-30 08:27AM | 0 recs
Re: Shameful

Hillaryis44 is a web site. You can choose to go there, but it's basic premise is lifting Hillary up as the inevitable winner of the '08 race. Period.

Trinity Church is a house of God.

Big difference.

by Zeitgeist9000 2008-05-30 08:30AM | 0 recs
Re: Shameful

Trinity is a different kind of church, which ends up functioning very much like a blog. It's loud. It's rowdy. You have several posters pastors who make loud, often unpolitic statements about the world. It's very community-oriented.

Sometimes people make dumb posts sermons, and the offensive content creates a small media firestorm.

Like a blog, you can choose to go there. Trinity's premise is largely community activism, doing what it can for the people of the South Side. But it's inexorably bound up in politics, just as much as any blog.

Once you understand that dynamic, you'll have a better understanding of Trinity, and why it sometimes has controversial, even offensive, sermons.

by really not a troll 2008-05-30 08:36AM | 0 recs
Re: Shameful

A church is a church. Churches are not blogs. We go to church to please Christ Jesus, not to post baseless opinions.

I go to church every week, and I'm African American so I have an understanding of the different nature of African American churches.

But I also know contempt when I see it.

Using the pulpit to convey contempt to someone like Hillary who gets up every morning to do good will come back to haunt the perpetrators.

by Zeitgeist9000 2008-05-30 08:55AM | 0 recs
Re: Shameful

I'm not saying the blog-like nature of Trinity in any way excuses the remarks - I'm trying to communicate an understanding of the context in which this occurred. I'd expect similar over-reaction if a prominent politician were attacking Kos or Jerome everyday.

by really not a troll 2008-05-30 09:11AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

"Denounce and reject!"

Why didn't Obama personally hunt down Pfleger and challenge him to a one-on-one cage match? This raises serious questions about Obama's credibility here.

by really not a troll 2008-05-30 08:13AM | 0 recs
Jerome, what are you going to do in a week?

I'm going to find it fascinating to watch.

by Travis Stark 2008-05-30 08:13AM | 0 recs
Re: Jerome, what are you going to do in a week?

Keep blogging the same way I have been...

by Jerome Armstrong 2008-05-30 08:15AM | 0 recs
Re: Jerome, what are you going to do in a week?

Posting youtube videos of our nominee joking around with reporters and calling him "our version of Bush"? Or posting hilariously misleading graphs and insulting the users who point it out?

This strikes me as a bad plan.

by really not a troll 2008-05-30 08:21AM | 0 recs
At some point that will make you a Republican. No?

by Travis Stark 2008-05-30 08:34AM | 0 recs
So Jerome. Is this an appropriate TR?

Just wondering, since this is the kind of stuff going on all over your site.

by Travis Stark 2008-05-30 09:34AM | 0 recs
My Prediction

Jerome, Jeralyn, BigTentDem, Larry Johnson, and the like support Clinton moving ahead to a floor fight at the convention, if she's willing to put the party through that nightmare.

by Hatch 2008-05-30 08:16AM | 0 recs
Re: My Prediction

Count on it.  

by Blue Neponset 2008-05-30 08:22AM | 0 recs
Re: My Prediction

I wouldn't put Jerome in the same category as Larry Johnson regardless of their views on a floor fight.

Just out of curiousity, though, Jerome, are there any circumstances under which you would like to see this go to the convention?

by emptythreatsfarm 2008-05-30 08:31AM | 0 recs
I couldn't disagree with you more

http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/5/30/1039 20/269

I think it comes down to a guilt-by-association thing. I think it's absolutely silly that it's now become standard operating procedure for someone marginally associated with a campaign to be the focus.

Were the comments offensive and ridiculous? Yes. Should Obama be attached to these comments? Absolutely not. Just because the man said it in Obama's church doesn't give his opponents the right to club him over the head with it. It's the politics of the day, I get it, but it's silly. And we should recognize it as such.

by VAAlex 2008-05-30 08:14AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

I just commented on this in the Ferraro diary.  Is Obama required to specifically address the comments about Clinton when he speaks out against people like Pfleger and Wright?  No.  Would it go a long way toward helping those of us who have been pissed off about the level of sexism that has gone on in the primary - damn straight.  Jerome is right.. it's a missed opportunity.

by JustJennifer 2008-05-30 08:15AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

I would agree but Hillary has yet to speak out against racism that has occurred. She has actually gone on record denying it.

by sweet potato pie 2008-05-30 08:19AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

I'll agree that Hillary Clinton has had a tin ear responding to Obama's charges of racism, and obviously she has not handled the problem effectively. But both Bill and Hillary Clinton have apologized for and spoken out against even perceived racism in the campaign. Here are a few:

CNN: Clinton apologizes to black voters

Her biggest apology came in response to a question about comments by her husband, Bill Clinton, after the South Carolina primary, which Obama won handily. Bill Clinton said Jesse Jackson also won South Carolina when he ran for president in 1984 and 1988, a comment many viewed as belittling Obama's success.

And she personally apologized to Obama over Shaheen:

The fallout is still measurable from Senator Hillary Clinton's apology to Barack Obama yesterday morning at Reagan National Airport for comments made by a top adviser relating to Mr. Obama's adolescent drug use, which he had disclosed years ago in his memoir.

by souvarine 2008-05-30 08:31AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

It doesn't matter now...if Obama is the nominee he is the one who has to repair the hurt feelings, not the other way around.  If Clinton was in his position then yes I would be urging  her to speak out to his supporters to gain their votes.  I think you are missing the point.  

by JustJennifer 2008-05-30 08:33AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

It's odd, Obama supporters don't see the sexism and Hillary supporters don't see the racism.

by RockvilleLiberal2 2008-05-30 08:21AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

I see both. You'd have to be pretty badly in denial to deny the existence of either in this campaign. A dozen Chris Matthews moments and exit polls on "did race influence your vote?" from West Virginia are enough.

by really not a troll 2008-05-30 08:24AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

I think part of this is a tactical decision - a bland, boilerplate response to what the campaign hopes will be a bland, boilerplate, one-cycle story. They want the story to go away, and hence aren't going to call attention to it with a dramatic press release.

It's probably not an ideal response, and might have benefited from a more direct denunciation of sexism, but I don't see any failings here.

by really not a troll 2008-05-30 08:30AM | 0 recs
Clinton on Ferraro

"Well, I don't agree with that and I think it's important that we try to stay focused on issues that matter to the American people."

Oh yeah, Hillary really laid the smack down in comparison to Obama.  Not only did she strongly condemn Ferraro's comments, she immediately fired her from all aspects of her campaign.

Wait a sec....

by quixote27 2008-05-30 08:16AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton on Ferraro

And, btw - should we start a new meme - IOKIYHC?

by quixote27 2008-05-30 08:17AM | 0 recs
Well Said...

Too bad I am not allowed to rec this particular diary... because it expresses my sentiments very nicely!!

by SevenStrings 2008-05-30 08:17AM | 0 recs
Jerome, you are somewhat correct

He should denounce the anti-Hillary statements at some point, but he does have a problem with Democratic Women that he need to address, first by calling out the sexism in this campaign.

His real issue is getting Hillary to stop people like Ferraro from trying to submarine his candidacy.

If Hillary continues to say this thing was stolen from her or the process was tainted after Michigan and Florida are seated, there is nothing Obama can really do to stop her from trying to undermine him.

How the loser loses will determine whether the winner wins in November.

I think Hillary will take the high road, but Obama needs to take some steps.

by blue2008 2008-05-30 08:17AM | 0 recs
I don't get it

His real issue is getting Hillary to stop people like Ferraro from trying to submarine his candidacy.

Why is this Obama's job?

I mean, yes, he needs to get Ferraro to stop somehow, but shouldn't Clinton be stepping up to stop this, just like she stopped Ferraro the first time around?  Clinton believes that Obama should be president if she isn't, and Ferraro is out there advocating McCain.

It's like bringing your friend to a party.  Your friend gets drunk and starts berating people; you COULD just leave him there and go home, but you SHOULD take him home before he does too much damage.

by Dracomicron 2008-05-30 08:23AM | 0 recs
Re: I don't get it

It isn't just his job, but he needs to move towards these alienated people. Not the dead-enders who crawl from NoQuarter to here and back, but sensible voters who may be on the fence.

He loses nothing by reaching out at this point, and he needs to have a serious talk with Hillary, including about the behavior of surrogates.

Obviously, talking to Ferraro won;t happen, but the endgame has to include some discussion and ground rules for how supporters will behave going forward.

by blue2008 2008-05-30 08:52AM | 0 recs
Fair enough

I don't understand why they don't have closer communication with the Clintons anyway.  It's not characteristic of the Obama campaign.  Don't they have regular conference calls?

by Dracomicron 2008-05-30 09:06AM | 0 recs
Re: Fair enough

I think there is a certain amount of hesitance on his part to become entangled with the Clintons. That's why I knew the unity ticket talk never resonated with me.

Barack comes from Illinois politics, and there is always a purpose behind the strategy. They may be ignoring her to a certain extent until her demands become more reasonable for the endgame, then, when she's at her weakest point, Obama will fully engage her.

by blue2008 2008-05-30 10:27AM | 0 recs
Thing is

Obama isn't talking about Clinton ANYWHERE.  He's, for all intents and purposes, done with her.  It is just not about her anymore, and everytime he gives a speech about her, it's that much longer it's going to take to get the Obama v. McCain narrative back in place.

He didn't make the comment.  He didn't hear the comment made.  What, precisely, does one expect him to do?  Frankly, I think he went further than he had to.

by ihaveseenenough 2008-05-30 08:17AM | 0 recs
Re: Thing is

He doesn't need to talk about Clinton so much.. it's her supporters he needs to address.  And by rejecting and renouncing any sexism leveled against her he would be addressing us, not her.

by JustJennifer 2008-05-30 08:27AM | 0 recs
Re: Thing is

He has long since rejected and renounced sexism.

But he is addressing you every time he makes a speech.  And I'm sure after this is wrapped up next week, he'll have a speech tailor-made for Clinton supporters.

But don't think for a second that this "problem" isn't being fanned by the Clinton campaign.

by ihaveseenenough 2008-05-30 08:43AM | 0 recs
So true. Thank you

Meanwhile Hillary still hasn't figured out why HER reference to ASSASSINATION might be perceived by the rest of the world.

I love how the Clinton folk pile on their Obama smears because of what someone else said somewhen.

But when words come out of Hillary's mouth it is always excused with over-tiredness.  Soon she will be able to get some much-needed beauty sleep.

by Eman 2008-05-30 11:49AM | 0 recs
Is this snark?

Serious question.

by fwiffo3 2008-05-30 08:19AM | 0 recs
Just admit it

We are disappointed that Senator Obama didn't specifically reject Father's Pflegler's dispicable comments about Senator Clinton, and assume he will do so.

He said they were dumb and unproductive, same as Clinton's team did.  What more do you want?

Could it be that the only thing that would satisfy you on this is to have Obama on tape saying "Now all the white people are scared" or any of the other reactionary statements?

Then they'd have all they need to destroy him, after all.

The ONLY reason that Obama might be having trouble with female voters is because he's running against a female candidate that, through surrogates such as Ferraro and by herself, vociferously proclaims that the only reason she's losing is because of gender bias, despite nearly all the evidence.  Hillary Clinton is driving the wedge between women and Obama because she believes that it is her only method of securing her political legacy.

by Dracomicron 2008-05-30 08:20AM | 0 recs
You missed the point.

Not a huge fan of Mr Armstrong, but he's right.  This was an opportunity for Obama to make up some ground with Clinton supporters who feel she's been dumped on.  He didn't take an advantage of the opportunity.  

It would have been a simple effort on his part that would have cost him nothing, had the potential to gain him some goodwill.  Come out and denounce not only the ministers slander on Hillary, but ask all his supporters to treat her with respect.  Thus the "missed opportunity"

by jimotto 2008-05-30 08:39AM | 0 recs
Re: You missed the point.

unfortunately...if Obama did this...they would probably conclude that he was being pratronizing.  They would conclude that he decided that she can't defend herself because she is a woman.

by d 2008-05-30 08:47AM | 0 recs
He's saying that every time

He's always telling us to treat Clinton and her supporters with respect.  He does it even when the crowd boos at her name.

Obama has always been appropriately respectful, except when Clinton's been attacking him over specious stuff (and even then, why go out of your way to be respectful to someone who's not returning the favor?).  It's these manufactured controversies and saying "oh, you didn't do ENOUGH just by coming out right away against them.  You needed to quote the offensive stuff verbatim and then wait five seconds to repudiate them so everyone can let the offensiveness sink in."

It's bizarre and silly.

by Dracomicron 2008-05-30 08:48AM | 0 recs
Re: He's saying that every time

I know.  However, it rarely gets covered.  This time definitely would have.

by jimotto 2008-05-30 09:50AM | 0 recs
MyDD Fainting couch

Toughen up people.  The Repubs are going to call Obama every name in the book during the next five months.  If you get the vapors over this non-story then you aren't going to be much help during the GE.  

by Blue Neponset 2008-05-30 08:21AM | 0 recs
Re: MyDD Fainting couch

Surprise!  I don't want to help Obama.  I want him to find out too late that he has to kiss our asses big time to get us to vote for him.  I want him to be unsuccessful.  I want all of the current DNC leadership purged.  I want all Obama supporters to be angry and disappointed the day after the election.  I want them to never forget that it is a really, REALLY bad idea to piss off the base.  

Do not ask for our help.  You frat boys are on your own.  Enjoy the fall.  

by goldberry 2008-05-30 10:31AM | 0 recs
Re: MyDD Fainting couch

We are on opposite sides of the party.  I love the fact that real people now run the DNC and the Washington insiders have been marginalized.  I think that is why this is such a passionate primary.  We the people of the party are involved.  You may not like it but all organizations change and evolve.  I will not kiss up to anyone, IMO there is NO good reason not to vote.  Think of the consequences, if you can live with them, go for it.

by temptxan 2008-05-30 11:11AM | 0 recs
Re: MyDD Fainting couch
Here's where you are dead wrong:  I and many millions of other voters are not party insiders.  We are women, working class (indeed, just about everyone is working class unless they make multiple millions per year), latino, elderly, gay.  Obama and his minions have managed to insult just about all of us one after another.  We will not tolerate it.  If WE go down, we are going to take you with us.  So, you have to ask yourself, "Do I feel lucky this year?"  If you still think you might just need us to vote for your guy, you'd better shut up about the supposed party insiders and ask your candidate to start walking it back.  Fepending on how much he begs and grovels for forgiveness, we might vote for him.  
Oh, and BYW, the party insiders are pulling for YOUR guy, not nine.  
Clueless gits.  
by goldberry 2008-05-30 12:09PM | 0 recs
Re: MyDD Fainting couch

I am a working class woman, and my dear, I have not been insulted by Sen. O's campaign. However, Sen. Clinton could have stood up for the black church, instead of joining in the pile on. She let me and a lot of my brothers and sisters down.

by Mae Scott 2008-05-30 05:16PM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

I think I've just found my calling: before the next election, I'm going to develop a "reject and denounce" form that can be filled out by each candidate whenever a surrogate, distant relative, former business associate, person they knew in grade school, etc. say something that generates OUTRAGE among certain people.  It will have check boxes for varying levels of denunciation and everything.  I expect that business will be quite lucrative in this environment.

by rfahey22 2008-05-30 08:24AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

ah, nothing beats throwing the biggest, bestest progressive leader in Chicago under the bus because of a lost cause presidential campaign, huh Jerome?

Michael Pfleger has done more for progressives than you can imagine.

He is one of the absolute best anti-gun violence advocates out there.

He pisses off those in power because he speaks the truth.  And he's white.

He is more hated by conservatives in Chicago than Jesse Jackson.

Michael Pfleger said some dumb things near the end of that speech, but his real crime was he spoke of white priviledge.  He denounced white priviledge.

Michael Pfleger is a thousand times the man you are Jerome.  

Go f* yourself.  Nice way to throw one of the countries great progressive advocates under the bus.

by JJCPA 2008-05-30 08:25AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

Dude, HR for telling someone to go f**k themselves.  Not cool, and certainly not any way to make your point about someone you consider to be a fine individual.

by JustJennifer 2008-05-30 08:29AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

You probably should have deleted those last three sentences.

by rfahey22 2008-05-30 08:32AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

That comment (as with most) reads an awful lot better without the personal attacks.

Michael Pfleger has done more for progressives than you can imagine.

He is one of the absolute best anti-gun violence advocates out there.

He pisses off those in power because he speaks the truth.  And he's white.

He is more hated by conservatives in Chicago than Jesse Jackson.

Michael Pfleger said some dumb things near the end of that speech, but his real crime was he spoke of white priviledge.  He denounced white priviledge.

by ihaveseenenough 2008-05-30 08:45AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

This is an example of Concern Trolling, right?

Did I pass the test???

by xdem 2008-05-30 08:25AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

I'm just so sick of the dishonestly and whining of Clinton bloggers and pundits.  This is just one more amongst a vast group of stupid things which have been said by members of the press, Obama's supporters, pundits, etc. and Clinton's supporters and pundits.  The sexism in this campaign and the "Clinton hate" has been no worse than the racism or "Obama hate."  Crying fowl all the time at the media and playing the victim is a BS repug strategy and I'm sick to death of hearing it from otherwise progressive people.  Buck the hell up and let's not forget who the real enemies are.  John McCain will continue to RUIN this country and harm people the world over.  Let's parse Obama's apology a little less and get a little more after McCain.  

by proseandpromise 2008-05-30 08:25AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

Oh, we're done whining.  We're going to get even now.  

by goldberry 2008-05-30 10:34AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

With America?  With the world?  Seriously.  This isn't a kid's game.

by proseandpromise 2008-05-30 10:44AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama
Then stop acting like children in need of punishment.  You can't stifle more than half the party and expect us to hand over our votes.  You are damn right it's not a child's game.  But fortunately, those of us who are "older" will be able to ride out the McCain years a lot better than you pesky kids.  
So, dial it back or you will be very sorry you crossed us.  It is not our responsibility to indulge your childish fantasies and we will come down hard on you in the fall.  
You've been warned.  
by goldberry 2008-05-30 12:13PM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

More rage from the Obama supporters. All they're doing on this thread is proving Jerome's point--his campaign isn't interested in reconciliation. It LIKES to piss off Clinton supporters. Very sad for someone who claims to be about hope.

by doyenne49 2008-05-30 12:50PM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

I don't like pissing of Clinton supporters.  I want to reconcile with the reasonable ones.  I'm quite fond of and impressed by canadiangirl and sricki and the like.  But I do love to piss off people who are passively or actively campaigning for McCain.

by proseandpromise 2008-05-30 05:04PM | 0 recs
What's with the dogwhistle?

"hater" "hate" "hating"

hate hate hate

Perhaps the F word isn't the only one that you can make a complete sentence out of:

"Hate the hating haters."

Hate hate hate

hate hate

hate

Is this hatism? Haterosity?  Hatement?  Hatishmentness?

Well, I've hated to hear all the hate that anti-Obama forces hate to miss the opportunity not to hate.  There certainly isn't a lack of hatred against Sen. Obama being expressed in hateful terms using derivatives of the word "hate" by preciesely those folks who hate to hate.

I'm really starting to hate all the hate. Maybe at some point it will occur to the hate-haters that hating isn't the path to hatelessness.

-chris

by chrisblask 2008-05-30 08:26AM | 0 recs
I'd feel more sympathetic...

...if there weren't racist attacks today on MyDD that Clinton supporters are just ignoring.  There's a diary that claims that Michelle Obama, apparently inspired by watching bad 70s movies, was videotaped saying, "Kill Whitey."  No reaction at all from Clinton supporters.

Yes, we have to do some repair work, but it's going to take a lot from anyone.

by thezzyzx 2008-05-30 08:27AM | 0 recs
Re: I'd feel more sympathetic...

I didn't see that diary.  I certainly would call bullshit if I had.

by JustJennifer 2008-05-30 08:30AM | 0 recs
Re: I'd feel more sympathetic...

It's the "What if Hillary suspends..." diary.  I should point out that lori found the claim "bizarre," so I was wrong in saying that it was completely ignored by Clinton supporters.

by thezzyzx 2008-05-30 08:35AM | 0 recs
Re: I'd feel more sympathetic...

No reaction at all? I guess you missed the 30 or so comments saying this is trash.

by VAAlex 2008-05-30 08:41AM | 0 recs
Re: I'd feel more sympathetic...

None from the people who dominate the rec list here.  Where is alegre or TexasDarlin denouncing a blatant racist attack from an alleged Clinton supporter?  I appreciate those who do, don't get me wrong, I'm just saying that the fights are going both ways and are being fed by trolls as much as anything.

by thezzyzx 2008-05-30 08:51AM | 0 recs
Re: I'd feel more sympathetic...

TD, Alegre and Linfar aren't really MYDD users, they're drive-by rec artists who start flame wars. Treat them the same way you do other trolls until they act right.

by blue2008 2008-05-30 08:58AM | 0 recs
Re: I'd feel more sympathetic...

TexasDarlin is pushing this in her Diary and on her site.

She's one of the people responsible for this ridiculous rumor... and on her site she explicitly says she has no intention of voting for the Democratic nominee.

Why does she still have an account on this site? If the goal of this site is electing Democrats... TD  has no interest in that. Her only interest right now is in tearing one particular Democrat down.

But according to Jerome, it's the Obama supporters that need to be 'housecleaned'. He's turning his site into a joke. It'll be really fascinating to see what happens next week.

by Tatan 2008-05-30 09:02AM | 0 recs
Re: I'd feel more sympathetic...

Then now you're saying something else. Now you're seeing you didn't see specific denunciations from people you don't seem to like. Which is very different than what you were saying previously.

by VAAlex 2008-05-30 09:06AM | 0 recs
Re: I'd feel more sympathetic...

No I'm saying that I didn't see denunciations from people who I knew as Clinton supporters either through their frequency of posting, a sig quote, or the simple construction of saying, "I'm a Clinton supporter but I think this is out of line."

I don't know the political preference of everyone who posts here, so I could have been wrong in assuming that the rejections were not from Clinton supporters.  If that is the case, I apologize for that.  

by thezzyzx 2008-05-30 09:34AM | 0 recs
Re: I'd feel more sympathetic...

"No reaction at all from Clinton supporters."

That's what you said in your original post. It's a blanket statement. You've changed what you said, which is fine. I was just bothered by the idea that no one that supports Clinton found that diary problematic.

by VAAlex 2008-05-30 09:45AM | 0 recs
Re: I'd feel more sympathetic...

Yeah I backtracked from that almost immediately when I noticed lori said something, as you can see from my comments above.  

I'm just getting frustrated in general with all of the bickering that's happening right now, with the sexism and the racism, with people holding one candidate to a completely different standard than the other.  

by thezzyzx 2008-05-30 10:08AM | 0 recs
Re: I'd feel more sympathetic...

Agreed with that. It is extremely frustrating.

by VAAlex 2008-05-30 10:21AM | 0 recs
You go with what you got
Attacking Senator Clinton is all the Obama camp followers have going for them.
As it stands Obama dosen't want Senator Clinton any where near his ticket should he be the Democratic Party nominee. He should also inform Snator Clinton that he won't need her help in the G E. After all, if you believe the charges they have made about Senator Clinton he would be a hypocrite having the assistance of a hoodwinkig racebater.
by usedmeat 2008-05-30 08:27AM | 0 recs
Re: You go with what you got

That is the great irony in all of this - Clintonites rage about Obama's unelectability, inexperience, and sexism, then turn around and say, but he'd make a great vice-president.  So, apparently it's okay for Obama to be sexist as long as Hillary is president.  

by ProfessorReo 2008-05-30 08:31AM | 0 recs
And has Senator Clinton said

she wants Obama as V P?

by usedmeat 2008-05-30 08:37AM | 0 recs
Re: And has Senator Clinton said

Actually, she has.  Don't you remember?  

by ProfessorReo 2008-05-30 08:39AM | 0 recs
to clarify

She said she thought Obama would make a good vice president for her.  Also, this call for a unity ticket implies she'd be willing to have him as vice president, if she's willing to be his vice-president.  

So, I ask, how can Hillary say she is willing to be on a ticket with Obama, as president or vice-president, after she and her supporters have said that he is sexist, duplicitous, racist, unqualified, inexperienced, and supports the disenfranchisement of Florida and Michigan voters?  If he's all these things, the last thing I as a principled person would want to do is run for president together, don't you think?  

by ProfessorReo 2008-05-30 08:44AM | 0 recs
Re: Nor do I recall Senator Clinto saying anything

about being Obama's V P

by usedmeat 2008-05-30 08:48AM | 0 recs
Re: Nor do I recall Senator Clinto saying anything

I guess you haven't been watching the news recently.  Hillary of course isn't going to say that, but up until her RFK gaffe, a steady drumbeat of Hillary surrogates have been calling for the unity ticket, including Rendell, Diane Feinstein, and good ol' Bill.  

by ProfessorReo 2008-05-30 08:52AM | 0 recs
Re: You are right about one thing,

I don't watch the news.

by usedmeat 2008-05-30 08:56AM | 0 recs
Re: You are right about one thing,

I see.  That explains why you don't seem to be able to "recall" anything.  

by ProfessorReo 2008-05-30 09:01AM | 0 recs
I dont watch the news either

But I read it, lots of it.  TV news sucks

by monkeyga 2008-05-30 09:18AM | 0 recs
Re: I dont watch the news either

I agree, television journalism is terrible.  I don't watch CNN anymore, they just seem to have gotten worse and worse.  Fox News - nuff said.  The only t.v. news shows I watch are the news magazine shows on MSNBC.  Olbermann's the best, and I've been surprisingly impressed with Hardball as of late, especially after watching Matthews eviscerate "appeaser boy" on live t.v.  My guilty pleasures are Race to the White House and Verdict with Dan Abrams.  

I like these shows, and it's not just because I'm an Obama supporter, because I get frustrated with some of their coverage of Obama.  Reverend Wright, anyone?

What separates these shows for me is that they seem to get the more intelligent and thoughtful pundit/guests compared to other shows.  I like listening to Rachel Maddow, Jonathan Alter, Eugene Robinson, and the numbers crunching guru Chuck Todd.  I think Chuck Todd should get his own show, he's great.  Of course, I still have to tolerate watching the likes of Pat Buchanan and Tucker Carlson, but they're good as conservative pundits go because they don't just spew the Bush talking points, they clearly have their own conservative philosophies and don't just tow the party line.  

by ProfessorReo 2008-05-30 10:11AM | 0 recs
Re: I don't recall that but then

I don't recall Senator Clinton accusing Obama of sexism.

by usedmeat 2008-05-30 08:45AM | 0 recs
As Mary Frances Berry said...

where was the condemnation of his fellow Christians as they whooped it up in glee at the hate speech?

by citizen53 2008-05-30 08:28AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

Wasted frontpage diary. Go figure. Why should we be targeting the GOP and McCain? Nah much better to keep these non stories going. Lets go drag Monica Lewinsky out of the closet again why were at it.

by John a Va Dem 2008-05-30 08:28AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

Didn't Father Pfleger apologize for his comments to Hillary?  What is your problem?  Obama said he disagreed with what the Father said. She does not apologize for her assasination comment, and gets a pass, but Obama comdemns the Father's comment and he gets kicked in the head.  Something is wrong with this picture.

by Spanky 2008-05-30 08:29AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

Actually its just poor writing and research. Go ahead and read the cached version of the webpage.


I�m concerned by issues of poverty and issues of justice and equal access and opportunity especially when dealing with children and education and healthcare. Also, the war in Iraq is non-negotiable: end it! The faith community has to be a prophetic voice to bring us to where we ought to be as a country. Its voice should call every individual to be their best and not assimilate into anything less. Obama is calling back those who have given up and lost hope in the political system both young and old in the belief that we can fix it. He has the intellect for the job and I haven�t heard anyone since Robert F. Kennedy who is causing such an emotional and spiritual awakening to the political possibilities

Thats the big thing the Obama campaign tried to "Scrub" off their site.

It was over after the North Carolina primary.
Now after this weekend the Clinton camp will shut down but hey, until then. Why not have some fun?
Lets find pastor Pfleger of St. Sabina's church, and dig out a bad joke he told and make news out of it.

Wee.

by Trey Rentz 2008-05-30 08:32AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

Nope, this is a speaker at Obama's church. Obama needed to leave the church after Wright's scandalous mockery and he didn't do it. What speakers at that church know is that you can say pretty much anything about Hillary Clinton.

What is clear is that they need to lose their tax exempt status now. They're a bunch of bigot promoting their bigotry. Misogyny is as deadly as racism, and this is most overt misogyny I've seen in decades.

This isn't some tiny church that no one sees - I mean, if he did this at his own church no one would care. But this is the church Obama continues to belong to, and these are the men he exposes his daughters to.

There is a huge problem here. And the Obama camp just doesn't understand that you cannot behave like this and unite the party. You can't win without Clinton supporters and you can't win Clinton supporters with rhetoric like this.

by glitterannebegay 2008-05-30 08:40AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

I hate to admit this to anyone, but I thought the Father was funny.  His imitation of Hillary's crying was funny, and it was not anything that we haven't seen on SNL.  I am saying this as a woman who cries all the time.  Nothng wrong with that.  The problem is that he is a spiritual leader who was in a church talking about politics.  Not good. Also, he was being sexist which is not good either.  He should have gone to a downtown comedy club or something if he wanted to do a comedy routine.  Also, the comment about the white entitlement was not true about the Clintons.  What is true about the Clintons is that they feel entitled to the nomination because they are the Clintons, not becuase they are white.

by Spanky 2008-05-30 08:42AM | 0 recs
Re: Another mind reader

who knows that Senator Clinton feels she is entitled to the nomination. By the same metrics then so does Obama.

by usedmeat 2008-05-30 08:51AM | 0 recs
Re: Another mind reader

Okay, you have a point.  I don't know for sure if the Clintons think they are entitled to the nomination because they are who they are, and what they have done for the democratic party which is a lot.  I just get the feeling that they think they are entitled, and it has nothing to do with race or gender.  The Clintons should be mad at themselves for losing, not at Obama.  Obama just outsmarted them at the game.  

by Spanky 2008-05-30 08:58AM | 0 recs
Another reason why myDD improves after pri

This article is wrong. Deep ties would imply something other than the superficial leadership of campaign groups that will disappear after 2008.

Also, I would kindly point out that we have heard nothing of a one Mr. Pfleger throughout this entire campaign. Not a single national press release, nor any major campaign event where he appears on stage.

But, Father Pfleger does get a paragraph on a comments page (that you can see by using cache) along with
18 yr old Renae L., of Wrentham MA, and DeeDee B.
Mennonite, MS -  a 27-year-old digital archivist at Mississippi State University.

The ABC Article tries to make a claim that Because Pfleger lives in Chicago and his church got 225,000.00 funding for social programs , which, bear in mind are spent out as they arrive - its not like anyone walked up and got the keys to a Porsche , again directed at St. Sabina's church in Chicago - constitutes deep ties.

Jerome, you are missing in your analysis a key point: the big dividing line between Hillary supporters and Obama supporters is simply, the generational gap. Obama supporters aren't swayed by the Baby Boomer tactics that Clinton wants to apply ..

If I recall, the Baby Boomers had a lot of social things happening with TV and this type of "scandal" had a lot of play with them.

The post-boomer generation uses the net.
It took me 5 minutes of digging to realize that Pfleger was just another made-for-tv moment.

by Trey Rentz 2008-05-30 08:29AM | 0 recs
Sorry, I forgot to counter-poll

"Clinton falls behind Obama in state, poll says"

California not being a big state, I know that makes no difference, but one little step at a time.

-chris

by chrisblask 2008-05-30 08:29AM | 0 recs
ENOUGH

I am tired of Hillary and Obama supporters attacking the other candidate for what they did or did not do or what they said or did not say.

I am sooooo TIRED of this primary season.  I just want this to end and so we can be united together.

by puma 2008-05-30 08:30AM | 0 recs
Re: ENOUGH

Good luck . . the more and more i see this . .the more and more i wonder if our dream primary season killed our party. Thanks to no effort by two of the biggest grassroots guys out there, Markos and Jerome.

We can hope this all gets fixed . . i have my doubts.

by John a Va Dem 2008-05-30 08:33AM | 0 recs
Re: ENOUGH

Its contrived. The battle between jerome and markos. gimme a break. they're best friends.

by Trey Rentz 2008-05-30 08:37AM | 0 recs
Re: ENOUGH

Why would anybody believe otherwise, I don't see how Alegre's war (in that she initiated the "strike" movement) is Jerome's by proxy?

I respect Jerome's intelligence to a degree I could not imagine him joining the "I hate all liberal media" movement either.

by CrushTheGOP2008 2008-05-30 08:41AM | 0 recs
Re: ENOUGH

And Jerome if you are reading this, I totally mean it.

Regardless of politics, at the end of the day Markos and Jerome have made history and changed the political power in our country.

Im not saying they burned the house down, but to quote Jerome they  "crashed the gate".

Kudos and Mojo to the two of them.

by CrushTheGOP2008 2008-05-30 08:43AM | 0 recs
yes. I agree.

They have each decided to publicly support a different major candidate on their sites- and then have exagerrated their support with extreme rhetoric.

so...let's judge them on that.

Kos tends to make grandiose, sarcastic pronouncements that, because Obama is winning, seem to eventually become the conventional wisdom.  There is rarely any confusion, however, that his comments are exaggerated and are not necessarily to be taken at face value.

Jerome tends to make wonky, detailed declarations that, because Clinton is losing, eventually get proven wrong.  There is also usually some confusion, however, to how much he is exaggerating.

by d 2008-05-30 09:07AM | 0 recs
Agreed

Both Jerome and Markos are from what I can see the #1 offenders.

While most folks on both sites are trying to restrain themselves, both these jokers are posting the most heinous attack pieces to be found.

Get a life, both of you.  Go beat each other up in a closed room.  Stop being jerks.

I've already asked if Jerome is a troll based on his behavior - to be fair, Kos deserves the same question.

Grow up you big goofs.

-chris

by chrisblask 2008-05-30 08:40AM | 0 recs
In fairness to Markos...

...he came very, very late in the game to the Obama side of things. Up until Edwards dropped out, the rec list and front page on dKos was dominated by Edwards supporters, some of whom had the same criticisms of Obama that we heard here (and still do) from Clinton supporters.

I don't disagree that the overwhelming tone of dKos these days is pro-Obama, but to some extent that's happened in spite of, not because of, Markos' own statements and actions.

(And that said, I, too, would love to be a fly on the wall when Markos and Jerome sit down over a round of drinks.)

by ipsos 2008-05-30 11:09AM | 0 recs
Phantom Rec!

by chrisblask 2008-05-30 02:42PM | 0 recs
Re: ENOUGH

We aren't going to be united. Obama's bigoted campaign - and yes, he is a bigot - have ruined any chances of that.

If he's the nominee, there is going to be a huge chunk of hardworking, donating, life-long Dems who will no more vote for Obama than we would Strom Thurmond.

Misogyny is as deadly and as anti-human as racism. I wouldn't support a racist candidate and i will not support a misogynistic one either.

by glitterannebegay 2008-05-30 08:35AM | 0 recs
Re: ENOUGH

Agree it does get old. Honestly speaking I don't really care what an obscure pastor looking for a lame laugh or two, is doing in the world. And neither do I care that the second tier candidate is worried about "assasination" of the main candidate.

Actually to tell the truth its just . Boring . really.  What other word describes it?

by Trey Rentz 2008-05-30 08:35AM | 0 recs
Re: excellent mind reading skill

That you can divine what Senator Clinton actually meant in that interview is wasted here. Why not head out to Vegas and try to get a booking as a mentalist.?

by usedmeat 2008-05-30 08:41AM | 0 recs
Re: ENOUGH

Which is exactly the point of this post-- Obama's lack at making it happen.

by Jerome Armstrong 2008-05-30 08:37AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

Jerome, just so I am clear here...

You are lamenting Obama's "lack" of bringing the party together by...

...consistently taking potshots at his every possible shortcoming, and then insulting his supporters?

by Reeves 2008-05-30 08:35AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

Yea, I'm posting about his lack of calling out his biggest enemies-- his supporters that continue the hate on Clinton. It's what's damaging his chances greater than anything else. There's plenty of it in this thread to see.

by Jerome Armstrong 2008-05-30 08:38AM | 0 recs
Re: Yeah, anyway.

If Obama has this all sewn up and it's just a matter of time before Senator Clinton realizes it, why all the hate?

by usedmeat 2008-05-30 08:42AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

There's nothing Obama could have said that would have satisfied you. If he had called Pfleger an "idiot", you would have complained he didn't call him a "massive idiot". If he had begged for forgiveness, you would have complained that he wasn't on his knees. If he had slapped Pfleger in the face, you would have complained that he didn't kick him in the balls.

You see the world through this prism, where everything said or left unsaid, every breath and gesture and scratch of his face is a thinly veiled attack on Hillary's gender. He could withdraw from the race and you'd still be whining that he wasn't differential enough.

by fwiffo3 2008-05-30 08:49AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

So Obama has repeatedly praised her, told his supporters to leave the RBC meeting alone, nipped the RFK comment story in the bud in one news cycle, and has run the gentlest campaign against her imaginable...

...but because he doesn't mention every supporter who disparages Hillary by name, he's lacking and also offending Hillary supporters?

Please. Nothing short of dropping out and begging on his knees to be HER running mate would placate these people. How much coddling must be done for adults to get over their individual candidate and look at the good of the party?

Edwards supporters did it...

Dodd supporters did it...

Biden's did...Richardson's did...

Why can't Hillary's supporters do it? That's a pretty insulting view of them you have.

by Reeves 2008-05-30 08:52AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

"nipped the RFK comment story in the bud in one news cycle"-Reeves

Huh?

SEELYE (5/26/08): Shortly after Mrs. Clinton spoke on Friday, the Obama campaign jumped on the story, sending an e-mail message to reporters saying her comment had no place in a presidential campaign. It linked to a online report in The New York Post that said Mrs. Clinton was ''making an odd comparison between the dead candidate and Robert Kennedy--a phrase the newspaper later dropped.!

http://dailyhowler.com/index.shtml

But then, Stephanopoulos also got it right when he challenged Obama chief strategist David Axelrod. He began with a question about Hillary's Clinton's recent reference to Robert Kennedy. Axelrod didn't quite answer:

STEPHANOPOULOS: The Clinton campaign clearly thinks that the Obama campaign are part of that group that is deliberately misinterpreting her statements. And in fact, your campaign's original statement on Friday afternoon said that Senator Clinton made an unfortunate statement that has no place in this campaign. Do you think it would have been better to give her the benefit of the doubt?

AXELROD: Well, in fact, she--a few minutes after we issued that statement seemed to say she herself felt it was unfortunate and was misinterpreted. We accepted that, as Senator Obama said yesterday. She said, you know, that's not what she meant, and we take her at her word and, you know, it's--we're beyond that issue now, so certainly we're not trying to stir the issue up.

Hmmm--that's wasn't quite an answer. So Stephanopoulos tried again, two more times:

STEPHANOPOULOS (continuing directly): Senator Obama did say that we should move on. You say you're not trying to stir the issue up. But a member of your press staff yesterday was sending around to an entire press list, I have the e-mail here. Keith Olbermann's searing commentary against Hillary Clinton. So that is stirring this up, isn't it?

AXELROD: Well, Mr Olbermann did his commentary and he had his opinion. But as far as we're concerned--

STEPHANOPOULOS: But your campaign was sending it around.

AXELROD: As far as we're concerned, George, as far as we're concerned, this issue is done. It was an unfortunate statement, as we said. As she's acknowledged. She has apologized. The apology, you know, is accepted. Let's move forward.

He even tried a different fourth question. No direct answer there, either:

STEPHANOPOULOS (continuing directly): So your campaign won't be sending around any more commentaries like that?

AXELROD: As I said, as far as we're concerned this is--this issue is done. There's so many important things going on in this country right now, George, that people are interested in that we're not going to spend days dwelling on this.

Should Obama's campaign have done what it did? Different people will have different views. But Axelrod never quite answered that original question. Stephanopoulos was right to keep asking.

http://dailyhowler.com/dh052708.shtml

by mdana 2008-05-31 01:02AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

Jerome, no offense but perhaps you should practice the party unity standards you suggest.  Party unity is not the sole responsibility of one canidate or another, same goes with supporters.  Some of us have posted respectful diaries trying to start a dialog only to have the discourse derailed by yet another attack, or diary like this which only inflames.  

There is diary after diary posted here that not only critique and criticize Sen. Obama but some that are downright GOP cut and paste talking points, yet no public notice like the ones that are directed at Sen. Obama supporters.  

I have noticed the "warning" comments are specifically addressed to Obama supporters, why?

Do you not see the same or worse behaviors from Clinton supporters?  I'm not talking about administrative actions, I'm talking about your public warnings and threats.  

Unity does not mean one party must prostrate themselves to sooth the others feelings.

Unity comes through mutual respect, something currently lacking in tone and content.  

by nextgen 2008-05-30 10:57AM | 0 recs
Thanks for the Diary

We need connstructive criticism for the party unity. Sycophants are dime a dozen.

by indydem99 2008-05-30 08:36AM | 0 recs
Re: Thanks for the Diary

Actually, what we need is leadership by the presumptive nominee to not ignore the problem.

by Jerome Armstrong 2008-05-30 08:45AM | 0 recs
He is a very intelligent man what is stopping him?

 

by indydem99 2008-05-30 08:53AM | 0 recs
What problem is being ignored?

Really?

by Dracomicron 2008-05-30 08:55AM | 0 recs
Here we go again.

Why do you keep doing this, Jerome?

You want to talk about the tactical effects on Obama's campaign?

Fine.

But it really pisses me off that you're so quick to condemn - as I've said respectfully (and got "warned" for saying) before - two men and two congregations that I simply do not think you have the qualifications to condemn.

Father Pfleger - as well as Reverend Wright - have been fighting for the poor, the downtrodden, and the forgotten in my city one hell of a long time before you even knew who they were.

Whether it's violence in the community, immigrant rights, or fair and affordable housing -- Father Pfleger has always been on the forefront.

I'm not defending what Father Pfleger (or Rev. Wright) have said in the few minutes of YouTube clips you and others have chosen to use as a summation of their life and life work -- but I wil defend the good works both of these men and their congregations have done.

They've been in the community for decades, fighting for the very people we Democrats supposedly want most to help.  They've been out in the streets while we handwring over how legislation "will play".

They've been lions for liberal causes.

That doesn't excuse what they've said - but it sure as hell should mitigate how what they've said is used to summarize them.

When the life's work of these men are ultimately measured - not by teevee or blog pundits, but by God - I find it hard to believe that God will care more about what's been seen on YouTube rather than the lifetime of work among those most in need of it.

You go too far, Jerome.

Like I said - I have no objections to a tactical analysis or a denunciation, in whatever strong terms you wish - in regards to what you've seen of them on YouTube.

But you're being tremendously unfair when you try to use those clips to demonize them.

by zonk 2008-05-30 08:38AM | 0 recs
Re: Here we go again.

Pfleger and Wright are hateful extremists. If I saw someone blog that sort of hate, I'd never link or visit them again, inspite of whatever else they said.

by Jerome Armstrong 2008-05-30 08:40AM | 0 recs
Re: Here we go again.

You have obviously never had to experience real hate of the kind you allude to here.  For some reason when Black institutions make statements of the same candor as Hillary did when she called on her army of hard working white americans you get your panties in a bunch.  Well it is the same kind of obfuscation that got us into this orwellian world and Iraq adventure.  The Catholic priest did not call on anyone to hate or destroy he said Hillary felt white entitled and couldnt stand the fact a black man was beating her.  

by Adept2u 2008-05-30 08:47AM | 0 recs
How do you know?

I'm seriously asking.

How do you know?

Do you have more background on either Pfleger or Wright beyond what you've heard on YouTube?  Were you even aware of who they were before this campaign started?

As a Chicagoan, I most certainly was -- Pfleger in particular is very much a firebrand priest (certainly quite a rarity in the Catholic church).

Name the rally - immigration, community violence, living wages, affordable housing - it's a near certainty that you'd hear Father Pfleger's name attached to it.

I suspect virtually every Chicagoan that has spent any amount of time listening to the news was well aware of who he was before this clip.

I'm not defending his disgusting performance this past Sunday - what I AM defending is the man himself, because he most certainly HAS done a lot of good in the community.

He's directly helped one heck of a lot more of the forgotten in our society than either Obama OR Clinton.  He's living it every day.

Again... I'm not defending what he said - I'm defending him.

I think it's unconscionable that you're trying to turn him into a pawn and a caricature.

Regardless of how this election ends up - I guarantee you that Father Pfleger is going to go right back to doing what he's been doing for decades before this election season.

He'll go right back to advocating for affordable housing.  He'll go right back to rallying for immigrant rights.   He'll go right back for fighting against gun violence in his community.

by zonk 2008-05-30 08:49AM | 0 recs
There is clearly a seething contempt

for anyone perceived to be of the esablishment that courses through the veins of many in Obama's inner circle -- whether it be Wright, Pflager, or what's her name "Clinton is a Monster" or Michelle Obama's "first time I am proud to be an American" or the reflexive charging of dog whistling by the Clinton campaign.  

I think that this comes along with any more revolutionary movement - part of this is a positive to me because I think that we do need to make some big changes in the country -- but the bigger part of me is just turned off by the whole Obama package - wonder if I would have seen the balance differently when I was in my 20's?

by activatedbybush 2008-05-30 09:04AM | 0 recs
Actually

A key component that I don't think anyone has written extensively about...

Forget age, forget income, forget even race...

I think it's an urban reaction.

I'm going through my history and I'm having trouble thinking of a single "urban president" - and whatever Obama's childhood, I think it's fair to say he's an 'urban' candidate just by virtue of how and where he's spent his adult life.

There IS a lot of anger in the cities of America - and there has been for some time.  Some of it is self-inflicted or at least self-sustaining.  We all argue over development and gentrification.  Most cities are most certainly more segregated than they'd like to admit.  

Add to that the urban neglect rooted in the Reagan years.

Tack on top of that the way we're portrayed in the national media.

I mean - our rural fellow citizens are constantly placed on a pedestal.  They get unending hosannas for being the good, hard-working, friendly, salt-of-the-earth type folks.

Yet - when's the last time you heard compliment directed at the urban citizenry?

To see media and cultural depictions - you'd think us urban dwellers are all a bunch of criminals, corrupt politicians, loud-mouthed, uncouth preachers, dirty hippies, and what not.

I'm having a really hard time thinking of when we've ever been considered otherwise.

I think an undercurrent of what you're seeing here is a Chicago urban reaction -- we're mad as hell, and we're not going to take it anymore.

I don't say this to attack any of the following, but we've had the brush clearing rancher from Texas (who was really an east coast gated community brat)... we've had the man from Hope.  We had the Texas oilman and WWII bomber pilot... We had the simple country boy from Illinois who grew up to be a movie star and governor.  We had the simple peanut farmer.... and on and on and on.

Even our congressional leaders -- though beloved in certain liberal circles, the media and public at large will gleefully talk about Nancy Pelosi's 'San Francisco values'... People like Chuck Rangel or Jesse Jackson Jr are readily shoehorned into urban loudmouth malcontent caricatures when the mood and times call for it.

Forget "black", forget "age" -- I think what you're seeing is a visceral reaction to the fact that one "our own", a real, live, urban dweller who certainly has a better appreciation of the needs of urban America than any Presidential contender in our lifetimes - is being attacked and there's a fear that he - that our champion - will somehow be denied the nomination.

by zonk 2008-05-30 10:14AM | 0 recs
Interesting take on it

I guess that our consolation is that we get to walk 5 minutes to our Starbucks where we can sip latte, shop at supermarkets that have fresh arugala, have access to better paying jobs, better quality doctors, and a greater diversity of ideas.   Fair trade to me!

I think that you might be right that some of it is urban anger in general.  I think that some of it is general anger at the screw-ups that those in power have made over the past 40 years.  Some of it, and this is the part that gets me uncomfortable, is a bit of "blame others for our problems" - which can be somewhat compelling and even sympathetic coming from the poor and left behind, but seems elitist and ungrateful coming from those who have benefitted tremendously from this country - regardless of their race.

by activatedbybush 2008-05-30 10:19AM | 0 recs
Re: Interesting take on it

The real irony of it is -- I think that rural American and urban America actually share a lot in common in regards to how our nation treats them.

I grew up in rural Indiana.  I've lived my entire adult life in Chicago.  I work in the suburbs.

The commonality I've seen and experienced?

The roads pocked with potholes, the schools in need of replacement and repair, the dire needs for community medical services --- never see 'em in the 'burbs.  I see the need in both rural and urban America, but never in the burbs.

That's what we ought to be doing -- uniting rural and urban against the suburbs :-)

by zonk 2008-05-30 10:26AM | 0 recs
There's a reason people move to the suburbs

I have lived in urban and suburban settings, and have family in rural.   There is something about the balance of having enough size and resources to have an impact but not being too big that the bureaucracy runs amok that works well in the suburbs.  There is a shared sense of community and space that allows people to support and invest in the common good.   I am in a very Republican town, but man do our taxes get jacked up every year w/narry a complaint.  We even purchased some open space land.   Why?  Because people can see a real connection between their funding of government and the results that government delivers for them.  This is harder to see in either urban or rural areas.

by activatedbybush 2008-05-30 11:27AM | 0 recs
Re: Here we go again.

These are complex men who have led complex lives.  They've said some ridiculous, stupid, and awful things, but to judge them as "hateful extremists" based on witnessing probably a total of less than an hour of youtube video seems pretty foolish to me.

From what I've read about Pfleger and Wright, they've done a lot of good things and helped a lot of people.  That doesn't excuse them from saying the things they've said, but if I had to dismiss everyone I've ever heard say something hateful- for example "just nuke the Arabs, make the whole middle east a parking lot" or any number of racist, sexist, and homophobic comments and jokes, than a good 50% of the US Navy (and specifically the crew of the submarine I served on) are "hateful extremists".  

In truth, the vast majority of these men would have taken a bullet to pull me to safety.  It's pretty hard for me to dismiss such men as evil or hateful, just as I would be reluctant to make such a judgement about someone I didn't know well unless they have done truly horrible things or incited others to do horrible things (on the level of child abuse, racial violence, etc).  

by ACrawf2 2008-05-30 08:55AM | 0 recs
Re: Here we go again.

You see bloggers who blog worse than what Father Pfleger said right here on MyDD almost every day by Hillary supporters, and you let them stay.  If us Obama supporters say one bad thing about Hillary we will get thrown off.  Sometimes, there is a double standard here on MyDD.

by Spanky 2008-05-30 09:06AM | 0 recs
Hateful. Hate.

Hate hate.

Limited vocabulary you have there, Jerome.

You are right in line with my other observations of the hateful extremists working on behalf of Sen. Clinton.

Like this Rapid Response list I lurked on (as opposed to "trolled" - I don't plant disinformation, I collect public information).  After Edwards endorsed Obama, this is the response to an Edwards email asking for support of underprivileged children's college fund he setup with his wife:

> Just received this from John Edwards<needless to say, I will NOT be contributing< but here¹s an email address:</p>

> So, feel free --EXPRESS YOURSELF!!!  ;-D
> LOL

Yes, Laugh Out Loud at Edwards and his wife as they try to put poor kids through college.

And you smear the world outside of your bubble as "hateful haters"?

Did you read the comments left by your fellow Hate-Free saints on the NARAL blog?  Sure, NARAL has never done anything for anyone and it is completely justified to throw the entire organization and everything it stands for under the bus if they don't agree with you...

Give me a break.

-chris

by chrisblask 2008-05-30 09:09AM | 0 recs
Let me ask it another way...

I assume, despite the schism this cycle, that you and Markos are still relatively friendly, no?

Let's go back to Markos' now-infamous "screw 'em" post from Fallujah several years back.

I'm not jumping on Markos for the post itself, I get what he was saying.  For whatever it's worth, I completely agree that the private contractors in Iraq have a history of abhorrent behavior and ought to be removed the equation.  

BUT - that doesn't change the fact that Markos certainly didn't know any of the contractors that were brutally killed, nor does it change the fact that they may well have had families that loved them and were devastated by their horrific deaths, too.

Whatever truth may have been behind that post - I think it's fair to say that it wasn't a shining moment for Markos.

How did you feel when so many pundits and other people decided to judge the whole cloth of Markos, his work and who he is - by that single post?

Did you think that was unfair?

by zonk 2008-05-30 09:12AM | 0 recs
Re: Let me ask it another way...

gmab, whats the context of this whacko Michael Pfleger comments?  There is none. It's straight up trash talking.

by Jerome Armstrong 2008-05-30 09:20AM | 0 recs
There you go again...

What is so hard about saying "these whacko comments by (Father) Michael Pfleger" rather than "this whacko Michael Pfleger"?

It just doesn't make sense to me.

As I've said repeatedly, the man has done plenty of good work in his community, in my city.  It doesn't excuse what he said - and I'm not even asking or saying that it should mitigate what he said.

All I'm saying is that you should take more into account - should you choose to judge the person - than just a few minutes of online video.

It's common decency is all.

by zonk 2008-05-30 09:26AM | 0 recs
Re: Let me ask it another way...

I think I understand the context.  Forgive me for speaking for a community I'm not part of.  But I know Father Pfleger via friends and therefore know about his work in South Chicago.

It's sort of ironic...

Much of the UCC and especially Trinity ministry has felt mischaracterized and unfairly pilloried by the Rev. Wright.  At the same time, Pfleger is someone who has felt a great deal of frustration at the racial divide and double standard experienced in Chicago's south side.  He went in to Trinty fueled by his own frustration to express and affirm his connection with the African American community and to agree with them that they were being mischaracterized by someone (Clinton) who a number of them had supported whole-heartedly for years.

I guess it depends on how you see Rev. Wright.  If you see his speech as wholely hateful and his ministry therefore as immoral, then what Father Pfleger does is incomprehensible.  
But if you see, as I do, a racist glee in elements of the media's take down of Wright and Trinity, then it's possible to see Pfleger as doing what he's always done -- point out that race privilage isn't just visible from the black community -- that some in the white community see it as well.

Ironically, I think both his race and the fact he's a Catholic priest rather than UCC minister are going to insulate Pfleger.  And he'll keep on helping the impoverished AA community at St. Lucy's.

by mijita 2008-05-30 09:38AM | 0 recs
Re: Here we go again.

Quick, who's got Texas Darlin's comment about Obama being the shoeshine boy?

by Koan 2008-05-30 09:18AM | 0 recs
bashing by Clinton

Why has she not told her supporters to stop the veiled gay bashing.   They keep up with the San Fransisco values, and the Pansy comments and nary a word.

Additionally, she keeps bringing up the race card.  She keeps trumpeting her support with White voters, versus taking those voters to task for refusing to vote for a mixed race man simply because he father was Black.

Finally, I am sorry, sexism is no where near as devestating or accepted are racism.  

When was the last time a rich white woman was pulled over by a cop because she was a rich white woman?    
When was the last time a woman was eyed suspiciously by a sales clerk simply because she was a white woman?  
When was the last time you quickened your pace just slightly, or glanced nervously behind you because it was dark and the person behind you was a white woman?

I am not trying to argue that sexism does not exist, it does, but it is not as much of an inhibitor of success that racism is.

by monkeyga 2008-05-30 08:40AM | 0 recs
Re: bashing by Clinton

And women make what, 70 cents for every dollar that a man makes for the same job?  I call BS - both sexism and racism are huge problems.  Period.


When was the last time a rich white woman was pulled over by a cop because she was a rich white woman?    
When was the last time a woman was eyed suspiciously by a sales clerk simply because she was a white woman?  
When was the last time you quickened your pace just slightly, or glanced nervously behind you because it was dark and the person behind you was a white woman?

These are all specific forms of racism that would occur mainly to blacks.

But you could do the same thing for white women:

When was the last time a black man was told to stay home and take care of the kids?
When was the last time a  black manager made only 70% of what his white counterpart made?
When was the last time a commercial showed a black man scrubbing the floor to make it sparkling clean with the latest new product?

by mikes101 2008-05-30 08:46AM | 0 recs
Re: bashing by Clinton

and black women have it worse than that.  The white lady who had all those things happen to her in the corporate world goes home to do that to her domestic servants of color.

by Adept2u 2008-05-30 08:51AM | 0 recs
Re: bashing by Clinton

Give me a break!  How many white families have "domestic servants of color"?  I know 1 white family that has au pairs, and they are Hispanic.  The other several hundred white families I know all scrub the floors themselves, or a few hire maids, just like black folks do.

by mikes101 2008-05-30 08:56AM | 0 recs
Re: bashing by Clinton

Mike my grandma worked for a white family to this day and she is in her 80's now.  I consider people from Latin America to be of color unless the indio is allowed in the country club too.

by Adept2u 2008-06-01 07:22PM | 0 recs
racism

Considering that most Black men don't even get chosen for the jobs, I can assure you that they will make less then the white counterparts.

Similarly, study after study has shown that most women (again most, not all) continue to make less money because they are less likely to stay working full time.  Even taking two years off to stay home with a baby has a huge detrimental effect.  And it is not gender related as men who 'take time off' also experience significant hits to their pay.

Finally, the commercials show women, because women still by the vast majority of groceries.  If men were buying the cleaning products, you can be sure that men would be shown cleaning the floors.  Madison avenue knows how to sell.

by monkeyga 2008-05-30 08:55AM | 0 recs
Re: racism

The 70 cents figure is for performing the equivalent job.  So, this presumes a black man and white man in the same job - it is only looking at cases where this condition already exists.  Or white woman and white man - they are ALREADY selected.


Finally, the commercials show women, because women still by the vast majority of groceries.  If men were buying the cleaning products, you can be sure that men would be shown cleaning the floors.  Madison avenue knows how to sell.

That's like me saying that people get nervous in a dark alleyway when there's a black man behind them because, after all, something like 50% of our incarcerations are black men!  And our juries sure know how to put black people in jail!  

Subvert the dominant paradigm, don't justify it!  Madison Avenue knows how to perpetuate the 1950's Stepford Wives - that's all.

by mikes101 2008-05-30 09:01AM | 0 recs
No problem with that

I have no problem with subverting that paradigm, but it is a two way street.  My boss is a strong feminist, but I know she does all the cleaning, because she says her husband doesn't do it right.
And I know other women who feel the same way.

I have female friends who will not let their husbands go near the washing machine because they say he won't do it right.

Then again, my sister can't boil an egg, so her husband does all the cooking.

by monkeyga 2008-05-30 09:27AM | 0 recs
70 cents on the dollar

It is also shown that men are more likely to demand more money initially than women and demand more/bigger raises than women. That's a factor that is too often left out of that equation.

by pacopoolio 2008-05-30 10:00AM | 0 recs
Re: bashing by Clinton


But you could do the same thing for white women:

Sorry - I should have said for "ALL women".  And the comparison could be made with all men, not just black men, of course.

by mikes101 2008-05-30 09:04AM | 0 recs
Obama's disimissals are unconvincing

He has clearly spent his adult life associating with individuals who have an admirable committment to social justice but who find it acceptable to fan the flames of intolerance and hate in accomplishing their goals.  

He is good on his policy positions, having essentially carbon copied those of the party (which is fine).   But I really wonder who this guy is.  At first, I wondered if there was substance behind his platitudes.  Now, I am wondering just what sort of substance there is.

by activatedbybush 2008-05-30 08:40AM | 0 recs
Roman Catholic Priest Mocks Hillary

Nevermind the fact that Father Pfleger has done more good work than any 50 people you could name put together, but he is a Catholic priest.  Should Obama apologize for pedophilia?  Is he now a Catholic?

We just got bona fide word that the war that has cost us 1.5 trillion, half a million dead iraqis and untold thousands maimed and wounded.  Over 4K of our own soldiers with another 15 to 20 times of them wounded was a LIE.  I just paid 54 bucks to fill up a Ford Focus,  on and on, and you tired grasping people put this up as an issue.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

by Adept2u 2008-05-30 08:40AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

Amen to this diary, Jerome.  Obama needs to denounce the nastiness that was aimed at Clinton.  So much for Mr. Unity.

by Montague 2008-05-30 08:44AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

There is one issue that keeps coming up from these chicago south side AA reverands and we just never seem to address it.  But Rev Wright said the same thing and it is the one quote we really think about.  "HRC has never been called a (place n word here)".  But what he really means is HRC doesnt know what it is like to suffer from discrimination.  White women dont know about discrimination because they are white.

And women dont suffer discrimination only AA do.  That is what i find mose offensive.  

david

by giusd 2008-05-30 08:44AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

You might want to view a picture of Rev. Pfleger before continuing a discussion about 'chicago south side AA reverands'.

by Wayward Son 2008-05-30 12:02PM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

Yes and by the way i did see him last night.  I nearly fell off my chair?

david

by giusd 2008-05-31 05:38AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

Many Clinton's supporters stick their fingers in their ears and stomp their feet every time Obama says anything so of course they have only heard 'a speech from 2002' and muffled 'rhetorical blah.' It can't be easy to reach out to people who have their backs turned on you.

by grasshopper 2008-05-30 08:44AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

Charactor counts.

We rightly judge a man's charactor by the company he chooses to keep.

If Obama is elected we have four years of race baiting black bigots feeling vindicated in blaming whitey for all the problems. Hence the problem will only get worse.

Obama should be soundly defeated in order to teach the lesson that racism is not tolerated no matter the color of the bigots skin.

Obama should be defeated to send a message to everyone that political success comes from denouncing racists and not from supporting them.

Our country deserves nothing less. We are better than Obama.

by Caliman 2008-05-30 08:46AM | 0 recs
Way better than Clinton

She is possibly the worst person that can ever be considered for the roll of the President.  She is as bad as Bush because she only gives a shit about herself and her cronies.

by monkeyga 2008-05-30 09:12AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

Uh, Pfleger isn't black.....

kinda ruins your whole rant there buddy.

by Deadalus 2008-05-30 09:20AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

You know, it's bad enough that people attack Obama's church... now, they are extending the attack to the Catholic Church.  I'm too young to really know anti-Catholic prejudice, but I do know my history, and where this is leading is not good at all...

Stop!  Catholics are the most loyal Hillary supporters... show some respect for our Church.

by LordMike 2008-05-30 08:46AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

If he were arrested for everyone he threw under his bus, he'd have gotten the chair by now. The sad thing is he thinks he's gonna convince people. THe difference is these people are not just political donors, they are racists, which voters find more offensive than Ron Burkle.

by DiamondJay 2008-05-30 08:48AM | 0 recs
A major step forward...

While some of the other Obama supporters are attacking you, I noticed the tone of this post is discretely different from former Obama criticisms.  

1.  It isn't about Obama's perceived "electability" problems.

2.  It's worded in such a way as to hope Obama becomes a better candidate.

Personally, while I disagree with you that this is a major issue, and I think you're unwittingly doing more to blow something up which hasn't gotten a lot of coverage, I don't have any issue with this post.  I hope you continue to be constructively critical of Obama after he becomes the nominee.  I just hope you continue to stay away from posts which highlight Obama's weaknesses without offering advice.  The point of the site is neither to be a cheerleader for Democrats or a neutral bystander of the election, but to help Democrats win.  

by telephasic 2008-05-30 08:49AM | 0 recs
I advise the poster

to post whatever he feels would be valuable for discussion.   If that includes a dissection of Obama's weaknesses as a candidate perceived or otherwise, so be it.  I think that as long as the posts are reality-based and not ad hominem attacks, it's fine.  

If someone wants to make the case that Clinton has won the popular vote and should thus be the nominee, that's fine with me.  Just don't confuse that point with going on to argue that she WILL be the nominee - that ain't gonna happen

by activatedbybush 2008-05-30 09:06AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

Obama and mainly his supporters have ruined any chances of the democratic party coming together and unifying in November.  It will not happen.  Obama doesn't want Hillary's supporters.  He's not trying to get our votes.  He doesn't seem to mind his supporters out there bashing Hillary and calling her a white supremacist.  Why can't Obama tackle things head on???  It would have gone a long way towards party unity if he would come out more strongly against these kind of attacks upon Hillary.  As i see it now.....most of Hillary's supporters will not vote for Obama.   I won't.

by karajan72 2008-05-30 08:55AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

When Hillary comes out strongly against these kind of attacks on Obama then we'll talk.

Unfortunately, she pounced on Wright and bittergate and would not let go.

Then she claims that she's the victim when some of the mud she throws gets splattered on her face.

Yes, we want you on board, but every time Obama is nice to hillary, (like in WV and KY), she turns around and gives him more trouble.

What exactly do you want from him?  Seriously?  He's been horribly maligned this primary season by your candidate... He is being incredibly gracious considering what he's had to endure with the kitchen sink and all.

by LordMike 2008-05-30 09:01AM | 0 recs
Never, Never good enough

Jerome I seem to miss the diary where you showed outrage at how "Clinton missed her chance" to show everyone on Obama's side when she REFUSED to apologize for her comments concerning Robert Kennedy's assassination. How you suffer from a blindness towards any kind of balance.

by eddieb 2008-05-30 08:58AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

Just another example of how Obama's campaign thinks they can do half-fast statements and then think all Hillary's supporters will come running to him after they both apear on stage.

You've got Wright and now this loon who spews sexist and racist bile against the Clintons.

If this was the other way around Hillary would be chastised (and rightly so).

Destined for defeat.

by GregNYC 2008-05-30 08:58AM | 0 recs
Obama had lots of warning on Pfleger

Let's remind everyone that Pfleger backed up Farrakhan in a 2006 controversy over some remarkable Farrakhan bile. Pfleger criticized a mass resignation of Jewish members on a state of Illinois hate crimes commission:  http://www.nbc5.com/news/7782149/detail. html?rss=chi&psp=news

Pfleger said "good riddance" to the people who had left the commission. "Leave, go ahead and go on out, we don't need that kind of a spirit or mentality and a narrowness on that kind of commission. I'm glad they're gone," Pfleger said.

What was the issue?  A member of the commission, Sister Claudette Marie Muhammad, was the Nation of Islam's minister of protocol.

[She] "was under the radar until she invited other commissioners to attend a Farrakhan speech last month.  Criticism of Muhammad mounted after the speech, which included references to "Hollywood Jews" promoting homosexuality and "other filth."

The three Jewish commission members who resigned wanted Muhammad to repudiate Farrakhan's criticism of Jews, gays and other groups. The Jewish Community Relations Council, representing 46 Chicago-area groups, passed a resolution supporting the three commission members.

Here's the quote from Farrakhan that Pfleger implicitly supported.  http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/objects/pag es/PrintArticleEn.jhtml?itemNo=698094

Farrakhan said, "These false Jews promote the filth of Hollywood. It's the wicked Jews, the false Jews that are promoting lesbianism, homosexuality," and "Zionists have manipulated Bush and the American government" over the war in Iraq.

Why in heavens' name was Obama supporting this guy?  And putting him on his Catholic advisory council?

by katmandu1 2008-05-30 09:00AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama had lots of warning on Pfleger

I doubt if Father Pfleger was supporting the comments of what Farrakhan said, since Father Pfleger ministers to homosexuals, lesbians in his ministry.  To say that he does is just bogus.  Farrakhan is a nut, but he has not been totally evil.  There are some things that Farrahkan promotes that is good, like helping the poor, and promoting family ties in the AA community.  From what I read of Father Pfleger, he has been an advocate for the poor, and the minority all his life.  He sees a lot of prejudice and bigotry where he goes I suppose, and that would color his world a different color than what most of us see in our world.  Farrakhan should be called out on his hate, but should also be called out on his good works also.  Good and evil exist in everyone.  Nobody is perfect.  

That is why Father Pfleger should have been called out on his comments on the Clintons. He has apologized which is more than some people we know do.

by Spanky 2008-05-30 09:25AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

Jerome, oh Jerome
Like so many Clintonites
Sad, mad at your loss.

But mad white women
Will soon change focus of hate
To Johnny McCain.

All Obama did
Was win the race fair and square:
Time will heal that wound.

But angry McCain,
Oh he calls his wife a c--t
Before reporters.

White women, oh heck
All women, they don't like it
When you call them c--t

http://rawstory.com/news/2008/McCain_tem per_boiled_over_in_92_0407.html

by Southjaw 2008-05-30 09:02AM | 0 recs
Missed opportunity by Obama

The guy said it, b/c it's what he believes.  He's only apologizing b/c he got caught.  Now I kind of agree with the entitlement aspect of the Clinton campaign, but I don't agree of the race side of it.  By the time Obama gets done, he'll have to apologize for every pastor or priest involved at Trinity.

by venavena 2008-05-30 09:05AM | 0 recs
Missed opportunity by Obama

Markieparkie, is there a reason why you troll-rated my comment?

by venavena 2008-05-30 11:33AM | 0 recs
He can't do anything right

It doesn't matter how Obama deals with anything right now.  No matter what he says or what he does, there will be a post from the proprietor of this blog criticizing his actions.  

There are really no options for Obama when it comes to the opinion of some people.  

by ottto 2008-05-30 09:09AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

Jerome-
I agree.

I also wish that you held Clinton to the same standard as you hold Obama.

For me, the most disappointing aspect of HRC's campaign was the way she encouraged the Wright controversy.  She should have stepped up and made a statement regarding the media's manipulation of that story.  She didn't.  

I think Obama should do more to heal and reach out.   However, it is hard to hear that from you and other HRC supporters when you show no self-reflection.  I'm particularly troubled when placing your post in the context of your complete excusing of HRC regarding the "hard working, white people" comments.  Whether that was a slip of the tongue, it certainly did not heal the divisions and her lack of apology was much more pronounced than Obama's especially given the fact that she made the statement, whereas Obama is once again apologizing for something someone else said!

Do you see the double standard?

by chrispy 2008-05-30 09:11AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

Do you mean the way Obama stepped up when the New York Times did a front page "story" on the Clinton's marriage that was nothing except innuendo and rumor devoid of actual reporting, or the Washington Post criticized Clinton for wearing outfits that hinted at cleavage, not to mention the Obama camp fanning the RFK comments?

I love the lectures and comments on double standards from Obama supporters.  Please sir, may I have another?

by mdana 2008-05-31 01:14AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

Did you read my post?  Twice I said that Obama should reach out and do more!  

The double standard, I find, is that HRC supporters are demanding that BO reach out it ways they don't ask HRC to.  I think BOTH should reach out more.

Please take the time to read comments before critiquing them!

by chrispy 2008-05-31 11:03AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

His letting this Clinton-hating speech hang out there with no specific denouncement, by someone whom he has deep ties with, isn't helping his unity campaign.

Agreed. And, this is not going unnoticed.

by grlpatriot 2008-05-30 09:11AM | 0 recs
Reconciliation is a two way street
Jerome, I respect you very much for all you have done for the progressive netroots, but you and other Clinton supporters have to stop looking for new reasons to bash Obama once he is the nominee. I know he wasn't your choice, but Hillary supporters have to do their part to help beat McCain. I agree, Obama should address the sexism Hillary has faced. But he has said nothing remotely sexist himself, when she CLEARLY has made veiled racist arguments against him. So trying to tie him in with the sexist statements rightwingers and, admittedly, some of his supporters have made is not fair.
If you want to win in November, as one of the most prominent Clinton supporters online, you need to do your part as well. Try making a list of things you like about him, or ways he's better than McCain. That's what I did when Kerry beat Dean, and it helped me get myself behind him for the 2004 General Election.
by blinkingidiot 2008-05-30 09:12AM | 0 recs
The flawed candidate

FYI; the reality is that many people feel the same way I do. It's sad to see the Democratic party go blindly into the abyss.

I cannot accept trinity's support of hate rhetoric. What Trinity church is doing is teaching hate. Many on Mydd may be fine with it; I'm not. I've heard every excuse used at Mydd for Obama and his church. Examples; all preachers do this, Obama wasn't in the church at the time, you don't understand the AA culture, it's the pastor not the church. Sorry, I don't buy it. I don't buy that this didn't somehow influence Obama either. Also, I'm sick of being told that issues like this aren't permitted because it will hurt Obama. FYI; Obama is responsible for his lifestyle and if there's any backlash, Obama is responsible for that too.

by soyousay 2008-05-30 09:44AM | 0 recs
Clinton

by chrisblask 2008-05-30 12:55PM | 0 recs
Jerome vs Todd

Clinton Fanatic vs Objective Clinton Supporter

by ozeki saketini 2008-05-30 09:13AM | 0 recs
Phantom Rec!

by chrisblask 2008-05-30 12:54PM | 0 recs
Re: I'M WAITING FOR JEROME'S CONDEMNATION OF GERAL

Well, since according to Intrade there is a 92% chance that Obama will be the nominee, this is 92% Obama's problem.

If Clinton were 92% likely the nominee, and Ferraro was saying stuff, I think more of the attention would be focused on her.

The front-runner gets the limelight.  That's just the way it works...

by mikes101 2008-05-30 09:14AM | 0 recs
This is Why Clinton should quit

As always, the simplest way to avoid confrontations like this, which are inevitable considering the amount of surrogates on each side, is for Clinton to do what she should have done a month ago, i.e. drop out of the race.  Imagine if all this ire and negative remarks were focused on McCain.  The longer Clinton stays in, the more likely these events are to occur, and the less likely the Democrats will unite for the fall.  It is the easiest way for these  things to stop happening.  

Senator Clinton:  Please Quit!

by rationalj 2008-05-30 09:17AM | 0 recs
Re: This is Why Clinton should quit

This is precisely right, and point to a deeper logical flaw in Jerome's complaints here.  

The simple fact is that, with respect to candidates of the same party, big public umbrage by one candidate regarding statements somehow associated with the other candidate is legitmate only where both remain viable candidates.

As a pure thought experiment, imagine that, on March 1, a YouTube video surfaces of a McCain advisor:

(a) cracking some kind of joke about U.S. military casualties in Iraq (i.e., a statement that creates a problem for candidate's GE message);

(b) in a Nutty Professor-style obsesity suit, in dramatic imitation of pre-diet "fat" Huckabee (i.e., a statement that personally insults the other candidate); or

(c) loudly proclaiming affection for Roe v. Wade (i.e., a statement that create a problem in w/r/t to the other candidate's core supporters)  

does Mike Huckabee, just days from dropping out, climb on his soapbox and strenuously demand immediate, itemized apologies from John McCain and his associates?   Of course not!

With respect to type (a) statements, Huckabee pile on will only aggravate the problem.

With respect to type (b) statements, since no relevant primary elections remain in which a diminution of Huckabee's stature could have any substantive effect on election outcome, the only damage is to the candidate's feelings; while a perfectly legitmate greviance, as a team player, Huckabee resolve all hard feelings privately.

Finally, type (c) statements -- supposedly Jerome's big concern -- actually provide the best opportunity for Huckabee to help McCain, whether before or after he has dropped out, by standing up to defend McCain strong pro-life credentials.

Instead, Jerome would have us believe that, to act in the interest of his party in response to Type (c) statements (even three days before dropping out) Huckabee must instead stresss to his social conservative base that McCain has once again proven that he is a closet liberal, thus giving McCain that much needed opportunity to so effectively distance himself from this advisor that he finally wins over Huckabee's base.

(or put differently, Jerome wants us to believe that the best way for us to help Obama win over Alegre is to advocate for increasingly more expertly worded big-tent pleas by David Plouffe, rather direct words from HRC on Obama's behalf)

Absoultely absurd!

by YuedoTiko 2008-05-30 10:32AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

I couldn't agree more.

by LindaSFNM 2008-05-30 09:19AM | 0 recs
Georgetown U. Prof writes

Jacques Berlinerblau is program director and associate professor of Jewish Civilization at the Edmund A. Walsh School of Foreign Service at Georgetown University.  He writes for Post/Newsweek,  Here is his take.  http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfai th/georgetown/2008/05/pursuing_the_jewis h_vote.html

But by delivering his remarks, Father Pfleger seems to have officially submitted his entry to the What Else Can We At Trinity Do to Further Assure that the United States Does Not Have Its First African-American President Any Time Soon? video competition. And this application has "Finalist" marked all over it.

*

In a general election a presidential candidate typically moves to the center. It is now going to be even harder for Obama to do that since America keeps seeing footage of his friends who stand to the left of Fidel Castro.

But that's not all. The Senator from Illinois has his share of difficulties with White Blue Collar voters. I have observed elsewhere that this group loathes this type of rhetoric (unless it comes from Chris Rock).

There's more to be concerned about. Obama has demonstrated some weakness with Catholic voters. The fact that he finds himself receiving glowing praise from a priest who has been in a running, public feud with his local Cardinal might aggravate the problem.

Let's not forget Senator Clinton. She surely will chime in on this controversy later today. It will deflect attention from her own recent gaffes. And it will strengthen her supporters' conviction that the racial hang-ups of Obama's inner circle will accrue to John McCain's greater glory. Too, there is more than a touch of misogyny in the priest's oratory and (as the Male Space Invader Rick Lazio learned the hard way) many women voters rally to Hillary when they feel a gendered slight.

by katmandu1 2008-05-30 09:20AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

psst there's more site traffic if we keep up the Obama v. Clinton meme

site traffic = dollars

(unknown how this will translate for MyDD if Hillary fails to take it all the way to the convention)

by AK Democrat 2008-05-30 09:24AM | 0 recs
Republicans will pounce

And it won't be pretty.

by kingsbridge77 2008-05-30 09:27AM | 0 recs
This is the ethos you seem to support, Jerome

I expect you to complete the task of censoring me and delete my account, so I may as well put the whole thing out here.

This is my response to the call by Clinton Rapid Responders to pour "hate" on Sen. and Elizabeth Edwards for the offense of raising college funds for poor kids.  This same group of fervent supporters called for the pouring of hatred on NARAL for not siding with them.

Sure, John Edwards is a horrible GOP troll, and sure, NARAL hates progressive issues, so of course it is great to "express yourself" by slinging hatred at them.

I have watched all of the campaigns as closely as I can.  There is no parallel whatsoever between the tactics of the three Democratic campaigns - except inasmuch as one of them looks much like the McCain campaign.  Since my observations of the Edwards and Obama campaign do not lead me to that conclusion, I leave it to you to decide which one does.

Bless you, Jerome, bless "P" (name changed to protect the guilty).  Not enough hate in the world, glad to see you are doing everything you can to create more.

-chris

Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 21:57:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Chris Blask" <chris@blask.org>  
Subject: Re: Help me in North Carolina
To: "P" <xxx@yyy.zzz>
CC: info@johnedwards.com

> Just received this from John Edwards<needless to say, I will NOT be contributing< but here¹s an email address:</p>

> So, feel free --EXPRESS YOURSELF!!!  ;-D
> LOL
> P

...................

P,

No, I won't.

I have watched this group of Clinton supporters slime good people for blatant political ends.  

I've watched it today organize a fear and slander campaign against NARAL, a Pro-Choice group that has worked hard to secure the reproductive rights of American women.

I have watched it propogate the racially divisive memes that the Clinton campaign has overtly accused the Obama campaign of using.

I have watched this group of bloggers working for Senator Clinton provide fuel to the fire of the most right-wing ethnocentric attacks that I have ever witnessed - and I don't shy away from listening to right-wing radio shows, so
that's saying something.

I have watched this group - and other groups advocating for Senator Clinton - as you have inspired people to the heights of frenetic cultish fervor in the earth-scorching
pursuit of political goals using methods which, if you truly believed in Democratic ideals or even base American ideals, would cause you to cringe in disgust.

I have.  I cringe in disgust as you "Laugh Out Loud" at US Senator Edwards and his wife's efforts to create a college fund for deserving students.

In fact, the level of disgust I have felt throughout this entire time since you invited me to join your group has not been worth the insight into the workings of the campaign for the candidate whom I had initially expected to be
voting for this fall.

If Senator Obama had not appeared on the scene as a fully viable candidate - a unique and honorable candidate - I would have been casting my vote for Senator Clinton this year.  I thank the powers that be that he did, and I thank you for confirming my decision to back him wholeheartedly.

If this group, your actions, and the primary race that the country has been involved in these past months had not all provided insight into the kinds of tactics that Senator Clinton's supporters were willing to use, I might have made a horrible mistake.

I might have voted for her.

But I haven't, and I won't.  I support Senator Obama for President.

Please remove me from this mailing list.  And please spend some time reflecting on what you believe in, and why you believe it.

-good day

-chris blask

--- P wrote:

> Just received this from John Edwards<needless to say, I will NOT be contributing< but here¹s an email address:</p>

> So, feel free --EXPRESS YOURSELF!!!  ;-D
> LOL

by chrisblask 2008-05-30 09:30AM | 0 recs
Obama is winning women in CA

They are supporting Obama and leaving Clinton in droves. She would lose in a landslide in CA if the election were held today. People are tired of all of this infighting. They are tired of the primary.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg i?f=/c/a/2008/05/30/PLQE1100CC.DTL&t sp=1

by DrPolitics 2008-05-30 09:35AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama is winning women in CA

Oh, there's a really reliable "polling" machine!  There's the one I'm looking at if I'm the Obama campaign alright ... hahahahahahaha

Look, Donna Brazile says Barack don't need women, old people or blue collar types.  She's gonna get her wish.

by beebop 2008-05-30 10:12AM | 0 recs
Clinton Supporters, You Do the Outreach

You lost, deal with it. Your candidate ran an ugly, hypocritical campaign, renouncing positions she had emphatically stated within a few months and propagatin lies about "leading the popular vote."

Obama owes Clinton supporters nothing--you need to get on board with Obama, or get on the life boats with the wingnuts.

by Davidsfr 2008-05-30 09:49AM | 0 recs
Re: Clinton Supporters, You Do the Outreach

We don't have to explain anything to him, sweetie.  Apparently 20 years of friendship with a priest who not only made vile comments about Hillary, but also on the same tape used the word "rape" over and over again ... how's that for a PRIEST ...

No, outreach?  He'd be wasting his freaking time.  No one with their wits about them would believe it for a moment.  He's toast in November.  White toast.

by beebop 2008-05-30 10:06AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

I'm shocked, shocked! that Jerome Armstrong and the Clinton campaign happened to notice the same quibble that puts Obama in a more negative light!  Who could have imagined that would happen.

I remember about two months back Jerome made some crack about how he doesn't watch MSNBC but he knows they're "in the tank" for Obama.   I wonder how the relationship between him and the Clinton campaign could be best described at this point (I think we're past 'mutual admiration').

by Jay R 2008-05-30 09:51AM | 0 recs
Definition of Chutzpah

The classic definition of chutzpah is the child who kills his parents and then complains about being an orphan.  Here that translates into Clinton boosters saying that it is Obama's problem that his negatives are up among Democratic women and that he needs to do something about it when the reason those negatives are up is because Clinton and surrogates for months have whined about how they Senator Clinton has been unfairly maligned on account of her gender.  Sure Obama needs to do what it takes to bring as many voters to the polls for him, but it is a tad disingenuous to lay his "problem" with some women solely at his feet.

While jokes about chutzpah are pretty shop worn, the real question is what does Senator Clinton hope to achieve by heightening the grievances some women may have against Obama?  For those who believe that it is OK for Hillary to march through Democratic constituencies like Sherman marched through Georgia in order to game November for McCain and prepare Hillary for 2012, I ask are you willing to sacrifice Roe v Wade to this end?

By the way Father Pfleiger has a point, doesn't he talking to an African American audience?  That many Democrats patronize African Americans rather want to see them empowered.  How else to explain the mantra that Obama is unelectable because there is a core group of traditional demcorats in swing states who will not vote for an African American?  America has changed for the better so this "fairy tale" harkens back to a different country, despite Barack's poor showing in Appalachia.

by Joburg 2008-05-30 09:58AM | 0 recs
Definition of Chutzpah

The classic definition of chutzpah is the child who kills his parents and then complains about being an orphan.  Here that translates into Clinton boosters saying that it is Obama's problem that his negatives are up among Democratic women and that he needs to do something about it when the reason those negatives are up is because Clinton and surrogates for months have whined about how they Senator Clinton has been unfairly maligned on account of her gender.  Sure Obama needs to do what it takes to bring as many voters to the polls for him, but it is a tad disingenuous to lay his "problem" with some women solely at his feet.

While jokes about chutzpah are pretty shop worn, the real question is what does Senator Clinton hope to achieve by heightening the grievances some women may have against Obama?  For those who believe that it is OK for Hillary to march through Democratic constituencies like Sherman marched through Georgia in order to game November for McCain and prepare Hillary for 2012, I ask are you willing to sacrifice Roe v Wade to this end?

By the way Father Pfleiger has a point, doesn't he talking to an African American audience?  That many Democrats patronize African Americans rather want to see them empowered.  How else to explain the mantra that Obama is unelectable because there is a core group of traditional demcorats in swing states who will not vote for an African American?  America has changed for the better so this "fairy tale" harkens back to a different country, despite Barack's poor showing in Appalachia.

by Joburg 2008-05-30 09:58AM | 0 recs
Give it up, Jerome

It's over and all you're doing is further embarrassing yourself.

by marley 2008-05-30 10:00AM | 0 recs
Re: Give it up, Jerome

You don't get it. This has nothing to do with Hillary. It's about Obama's lack of qualification to be president.

His "church" is a hotbed of racist filth, and he's been there for 20 years.

No amount of rhetoric can get you out of this.

by Jim J 2008-05-30 10:14AM | 0 recs
Re: Give it up, Jerome

Oh, so because your first choice lost you're going to continue to make absurd allegations against Obama in an attempt to destroy him?  You sound like a great Democrat.  If the party means that little to you you should just get out now.

by marley 2008-05-30 03:10PM | 0 recs
Catholic Archdiocese Criticizes Pfleger


http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/ 2008/05/archdiocese-of.html

Jerome, you're doing us proud; speak with your heart and your conscience.

by katmandu1 2008-05-30 10:07AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

"You know, I gotta feeling we are going to be doing some serious housecleaning here of the Obama supporters who think there can be no criticism of Obama at all."  Jerome Armstrong

Jerome...
speaking only for myself, I have NO problem with you or anyone finding fault with Obama on domestic  or world policy.
There is certainly enough there to discuss.
However,; I believe it is wrong to spread the wide blanket of "no criticism" over what I(and perhaps others) just might believe is either unjustified criticism or hyperbolic criticism.

What kind of progressive moderator would make a statement like the one you made above?
Certainly not one who lead us here via Crashing the Gate.
If you fulfill your threat, who will be here after next week.

Obama will be our nominee. The sooner we gather around that concept the sooner we can go forward.

by nogo postal 2008-05-30 10:10AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

You don't get it. Some of us think Obama has disqualified himself from enjoying our support. We are not obliged to "move on" and/or "move forward."

You just don't get it.

by Jim J 2008-05-30 10:13AM | 0 recs
MyDD will become MyHRC

Right?

Forget the entire Democratic Revolution sweeping the country, spend the rest of your lives rooting for Governor of the Philippine Islands Francis B. Harrison.

The REST of the Democratic party will move on.  MyHRC will move, uh, back and forth....

-chris

by chrisblask 2008-05-30 10:37AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

Interesting how on cue the Obama supporters pile on Jerome rather than addressing the obvious racial hatred so present in Obama's church, from a multitude of racists, all caught on tape over and over again.

You can't escape this. No amount of name-calling at Jerome will solve this problem for you: Obama belongs to a radically racist "church," and has for 20 years. He is not fit to be president.

by Jim J 2008-05-30 10:12AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

Racist, huh?

My guess is that you've never stepped foot in the church to hear a complete sermon.  Nor do you know the people there, yet you want to make a blanket assertion that they're racists.

My misguided friend, until you can take time to learn about African Americans experience in this country, you have no right to make such a statement.

Educate yourself.  A mind is a terrible thing to waste.

by LtWorf 2008-05-30 10:21AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

With that statement I can only assume you will be a McCain supporter come the general election then. Such a shame.

by montana36 2008-05-30 10:36AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

Come to Hyde Park and try saying that to anyone - white, black, brown - see what kind of response you get.

by really not a troll 2008-05-30 11:00AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama
Did I misquote?
If so my apology.
by nogo postal 2008-05-30 10:13AM | 0 recs
Obama picking up Bush traits?

Has anyone noticed that Obama of late has been behaving like Bush?  That Memorial Day service -- invitation only.  http://www.lcsun-news.com/news/ci_937264 6  That didn't keep Obama from making two huge gaffes.  And he now refuses to speak with the press off the cuff.

But no matter how much he controls his own words, he has enough unsavory friends to do him in -- e.g., Pfleger, Wright, Meeks.

by katmandu1 2008-05-30 10:26AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama picking up Bush traits?

Its not for secrative reasons like Bush. The Obama campaign is having a difficult time managinging the enormous crowds that show up and want to hear Obama speak. Certain venues can only hold so many people and open invitations can cause all sorts of overcrowding and safety problems.

Because of their low popularity, Clinton and McCain aren't having these problems.

by montana36 2008-05-30 10:32AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

This seems to be a coordinated effort by Clinton, her surrogates and paid off bloggers to kneecap Obama in November.

The desparate attempts to make mountains out of molehills at this stage in the primary are so transparent.

Best solution is to simply ignore stupid posts like this.

by montana36 2008-05-30 10:28AM | 0 recs
Paticularly from the site-owner...

by chrisblask 2008-05-30 10:30AM | 0 recs
For those of you who do not know -

Michael Pfleger is well known in Chicago.  He came come within in inches of excommunication under Cardinal Bernadine.  He constantly resorts to violent tactics to make his 'point'.  The man is always front page center - incredibly politically active.  Anyone from Chicago claiming not to know how Pfleger feels or what he has to say would be lying.  It is, in point of fact, disingenuous of the Archdiocese to claim otherwise (especially as regards politics).  And if Senator Obama cited Pfleger as a supporter of his campaign - he did so knowing what the man had to say about everything.  You see Pfleger never met a reporter he didn't like.  The whole of Chicago knew what Pfleger felt about Bill Clinton.  He hated him - from the get go.  Called him out during sermons.  Called his wife out too.  Michael Pfleger dislikes Hillary Clinton just as much as her husband.  I lived in Chicago - so I know.  Senator Obama knew too.  He read the newspapers.  He watched the local news.  Pfleger is a 5 o'clock regular.  Every summer there's a Pfleger watch - what will Mr. Crazy do now?  Try and run someone over with a car?  Been done.  By him.

Go ahead.  Google him.  Check out the YouTube videos.  If you still think Pfleger had noting bad to say - your hatred of everything Clinton has made you blind, deaf and dumb - and I'm not talking speechless here.    

by The Fat Lady Sings 2008-05-30 10:31AM | 0 recs
Re: For those of you who do not know -

Yes, Pfleger has been in trouble before.

But I was looking at the CNN story, and thought about this line:

The video shows the congregation laughing and cheering.

Is it not just Pfleger and Wright, but the whole congregation?  Are they all like that>

How could Obama belong to such a church?

by katmandu1 2008-05-30 10:48AM | 0 recs
I live in Chicago too and Pfleger

is a force for justice. Too bad you don't like that he calls out injustice when he sees it and with regards to his neighborhood Clinton was responsible for a lot of bad things happening.

Her entitlement complex and racist supporters deserve derision not encouragement.

by heresjohnny 2008-05-30 11:00AM | 0 recs
He is a force for and about himself

I used to think Pfleger gave a damn too - until I began listening to what he had to say about anyone who remotely disagreed with him.  And he advocates and participates in violence.  Just because someone says they have good motives doesn't mean they are a saint.

No - you want an example of a priest who constantly put good works above his own aggrandizement?  I give you Cardinal Bernadine.  All Pfleger's interested in is his face on TV.  I'm not at all surprised he attached himself to Senator's Obama's campaign.  It's the kind of thing he does.  Publicity is that man's bread and water.

by The Fat Lady Sings 2008-05-30 11:17AM | 0 recs
I'll quote MLK. That seems to be apt today.

I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that law and order exist for the purpose of establishing justice and that when they fail in this purpose they become the dangerously structured dams that block the flow of social progress. I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that the present tension in the South is a necessary phase of the transition from an obnoxious negative peace, in which the Negro passively accepted his unjust plight, to a substantive and positive peace, in which all men will respect the dignity and worth of human personality. Actually, we who engage in nonviolent direct action are not the creators of tension. We merely bring to the surface the hidden tension that is already alive. We bring it out in the open, where it can be seen and dealt with. Like a boil that can never be cured so long as it is covered up but must be opened with all it ugliness to the natural medicines of air and light injustice must be exposed with all the tension its exposure creates, to the light of human conscience and the air of national opinion, before it can be cured.

In your statement you assert that our actions, even though peaceful, must be condemned because they precipitate violence. But is this a logical assertion? Isn't this like condemning a robbed man because his possession of money precipitated the evil act of robbery? Isn't this like condemning Socrates because his unswerving commitment to truth and his philosophical inquiries precipitated the act by the misguided populace in which they made him drink hemlock? Isn't this like condemning Jesus because his unique God-consciousness and never-ceasing devotion to God's will precipitated the evil act of crucifixion? We must come to see that, as the federal courts have consistently affirmed, it is wrong to urge an individual to cease his efforts to gain his basic constitutional rights because the quest may precipitate violence. Society must protect the robbed and punish the robber.

But perhaps you think MLK was merely a publicity hound too.

by heresjohnny 2008-05-30 11:34AM | 0 recs
How dare you?

You don't know me.  You don't know if I'm black or white, if I marched with King or sat in a pew listening to him speak.  And to compare Pflager to King proves you haven't a clue about either man.

by The Fat Lady Sings 2008-05-30 12:51PM | 0 recs
Re: How dare you?

Clearly you didn't understand King's words. That's unfortunate for you.

by heresjohnny 2008-05-30 12:58PM | 0 recs
Three Little Words

And if you're not familiar with the reference - I suggest you look up the song stylings of Bert Kalmer and Harry Ruby.

by The Fat Lady Sings 2008-05-30 01:10PM | 0 recs
Re: Three Little Words

No I'm not familiar with the reference perhaps you can explain.

by heresjohnny 2008-05-30 01:16PM | 0 recs
If she didn't act like she was entitled to the

nomination Pfleger wouldn't have called her on it. If some of her voters didn't admit that they were racists Pfleger wouldn't have called them on it.

by heresjohnny 2008-05-30 10:43AM | 0 recs
You really aprove of the name calling

and general disrespect?  It's wrong - and no amount of bootstrapping will ever make it right.  Saying nya, nya, nay - and "she did it first!!!" is schoolyard.  Wrong is wrong.  It doesn't become right because you hate someone.

by The Fat Lady Sings 2008-05-30 11:33AM | 0 recs
Name calling?

I approve of pointing out her behavior. She should be ridiculed constantly and harshly because of it and her supporters who won't vote for a black man should also be ridiculed and shamed.

by heresjohnny 2008-05-30 11:36AM | 0 recs
Re: Name calling?

I don't recall him calling her names.  He said she acted entitled.  She has!  His act in church is a bit much for me as I don't think a comedy routine is what I go to church for.  SNL did the whole "my supporters are racist bit" already so he didn't need to go there.

His comments weren't helpful to the campaign, in fact they were dumb to say now, since no good can come of it, but, as a practical matter, there's a lot of truth in this stupidity.

by SpanishFly 2008-05-30 12:24PM | 0 recs
Re: Name calling?

Oh he was theatrical but that's not a shock to me. Black churches tend to be more engaged and boisterous. It's a good time not a solemn time.

He's an activist against racism and SNL is not. I expect it from him before I expect if from SNL to be honest.

Those comments, coming from a white guy, are perfect IMO. You can't dismiss him as some black nationalist racist (though such dismissals are erroneous they were made about Rev. Wright) and it makes people wonder why the white guy is saying that..

That's one of the reasons I think Tim Wise is effective.

by heresjohnny 2008-05-30 12:28PM | 0 recs
You keep screaming bigotry

Any time anyone disagrees with you or your perception of what Senator Obama stands for - you say that person is a racist.  Without knowing who they are, their background - or if they are black or white - you tar everybody with the same brush.  That's like someone saying anyone who votes for Obama is a misogynist.  

That you cannot (or refuse to) see that both are fallacies, puts reasoned discussion off the table.

by The Fat Lady Sings 2008-05-30 12:47PM | 0 recs
Re: You keep screaming bigotry

What are you talking about? I certainly didn't call YOU a bigot. Some Clinton voters admitted that THEY are bigots though.

by heresjohnny 2008-05-30 12:57PM | 0 recs
These things...

Are so counterproductive.  I can't believe you still feel beating up our candidate on these pages is worthwhile.

by SpanishFly 2008-05-30 10:52AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama
Has Jerome turned into a chaos troll?
Just asking!
by venician 2008-05-30 10:54AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama
Per rec'd Diary..
Clinton conceded MI and FL situation..
6/3
Let it be...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8x87IPQ2M Aw
by nogo postal 2008-05-30 10:56AM | 0 recs
You don't get it

Obama doesn't want unity.  Every action of his campaign has driven the wedge that divides our party deeper.  His mission was always to discredit and destroy Hillary Clinton and the Clinton presidential legacy.  He has nothing of his own to run on.

***A

by adrienne4dean 2008-05-30 10:57AM | 0 recs
Phantom TROLL Rate!

by chrisblask 2008-05-30 12:48PM | 0 recs
About that map, Jerome?

I assume you've seen the new SUSA poll?

http://www.surveyusa.com/index.php/2008/ 05/30/vice-presidential-pairings-wiscons in/

Since you have praised SUSA in the past for their reliability, I assume you'll be updating the electoral map any minute now. Right?

by jadegirl 2008-05-30 10:59AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

by libertyleft 2008-05-30 11:06AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

Father P.'s comments were stupid and divisive.
Gerry Ferraro's op-ed this morning was stupid and divisive.

EVERYBODY in both campaigns should act like grown-ups and make sure that the offensive statements of maverick bitter supporters on both sides do not get blown out of proportion and hurt the efforts to unite the core of the party/.

People with influence like you Jerome should be the first to fight for that to be made easier. I don't remember kos piling on the ridiculous RFK controversy and it would have been classy for you to let this go as the silly rantings of a single supporter. I hope you will get there because you can help.

by Benjaminomeara 2008-05-30 11:10AM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

I've noticed that his threads tend to really get the flames flying around here.  And I've asked him over and over again why he feels that's helpful.  Of course, he hasn't responded nor has he stopped doing it.

I've admitted when I've been wrong.  I would hope Jerome could do the same and start bringing people together here, rather than being this divisive all the time.  

by SpanishFly 2008-05-30 02:07PM | 0 recs
Missed Opportunity for Hillary
She missed her opportunity to be the Democratic Nominee through her own ineptness. She used the gender, race  and assassination card throughout her campaign and few if any on this page called her out on this. Where are her apologies.  I've been waiting... I guess I will have to wait until hell freezes over.  Also, you cannot control the behavior of adults.  Senator Obama is not responsible for the thoughts and opinions of grown folks. Father Pfleger is responsible for his own behavior.  Send a note to Father Pfleger if you have a complaint. Better yet let Hillary Clinton send the father a note  
All the cry babies need to move on and get a life. This whole non-issue is a waste of time.  Let's focus on the lies of George Bush and McCain's support of those lies. That's a great topic worth discussing.  
by markieparkie 2008-05-30 11:14AM | 0 recs
What's with all the TR abuse, markie?

You sure are doling out the 1.00's for comments that are less unpleasant than this one of yours.  Are you trying to chase voters away by calling them "crybabies"?

by Montague 2008-05-30 11:19AM | 0 recs
I cry ratings abuse too

You have no history here.  You've contributed very little to this discussion - and not one word to any others.  This can only mean you are here to disrupt.  

by The Fat Lady Sings 2008-05-30 11:27AM | 0 recs
Exsqueeze me

No history?  Check my comments. You're pretty amusing, for someone who's been around since, um, late April.

by Montague 2008-05-30 11:32AM | 0 recs
Oh come on - you know I meant Markie

My reply was to the ratings abuse.

by The Fat Lady Sings 2008-05-30 11:35AM | 0 recs
I apologize if I mistook

It was in reply to me, so I thought you meant me.

by Montague 2008-05-30 11:43AM | 0 recs
Sorry

I should have said I agreed with you.  I'm just so pissed off at all these dilettantes creating accounts solely to troll comment threads.  Markie's just another one of those.  They dirty up the waters - then move on to the next.  It's gotten so it's impossible to have any kind of discussion here.  I took a vacation from Kos for the same reasons.  I'm sorry to see MyDD go that way too.

by The Fat Lady Sings 2008-05-30 11:57AM | 0 recs
Re: Sorry

Please forgive my snarky comment to you!  I am in total agreement about these dilettantes that are showing up and disrupting things.  I'm also on vacation from Kos, maybe permanently.  Sadly, now MyDD is getting overrun by a lot of the same stuff that was so annoying over there.

by Montague 2008-05-30 12:09PM | 0 recs
Re: Sorry

While the post was pretty straight forward and sometimes rude, it wasn't a troll, IMO.  There are a lot of Obama supporters who are frustrated that he's the one called on to apologize for everything while Hillary is defended by 90% of this board, regardless of what she says or does.  Obama DID distance himself in this case and yet Jerome felt it necessary to slam him anyway.

Frankly, Hillary owes us all an apology for dragging this campaign on a lot longer than it needed to go on.  Wasting resources on this rather than being able to focus on the prize in November.

Now, that's just my opinion.  I'll bet you don't think I'm allowed to have it and that I shouldn't be able to state it here.  But I'm here and I'm talking pragmatically about our future as a party.  Those who want McCain as our next President ought to go post elsewhere.  I'm supporting the Dem nominee and that's Barack Obama.  

by SpanishFly 2008-05-30 02:02PM | 0 recs
I was troll rated

For furthering the discussion and stating my opinion.  Look upthread.  There was no reason for doing it - none.  Markie's account here is recent.  There has been no interaction - only specious troll rating.  My comment spoke to that.

by The Fat Lady Sings 2008-05-30 03:36PM | 0 recs
Re: I was troll rated

OK, my bad.  I've avoided the whole TR thing for a while now since having an opinion was grounds for being punished.

My take, I see nothing in this thread that earned a TR on either side.

by SpanishFly 2008-05-30 04:29PM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

so like, which is stronger, reject or denounce?  I forget.

by Drummond 2008-05-30 12:51PM | 0 recs
Renouncement and Denouncement Pronouncement

I denounce and renouce your pouncing on denouncing and renouncing!

There remains a chounce to bounce the renoucish denounconomy, but I would rather Flick Fleas while my flea flicker flicks than risk being late to the Party and therefore dejected and rejected.

Sorry if my renouncy denouncy is a bit flouncy and bouncy, but I heard tolerance was the Word in the Party so if I face denunciation and renunciation the situation won't stretch my imagination of the combinations of invitation and aggravation, really.

~sigh~

I'm sure there is somewhere that people care for fair play and, anyway, what I say is that no matter the shape of your heart or part you take, you're all OK with me.

I think that is what this Party was meant to be.

:~)

-chris

by chrisblask 2008-05-30 01:00PM | 0 recs
O 52%, C 42% - Gallup Today

and the Republicans are falling apart at all levels.

So sorry, Concern Trolls, Democrat Obama will be president in 2009.  I know that ruins your plans to cover ourselves in ashes and blame the world or your problems (or, if you are a GOP Troll, to have a Pres McCain), but all you can do is whine for six months

So, will that be Red Whine?

-chris

by chrisblask 2008-05-30 12:58PM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

It is a fine sunny Friday..at least in Denver.
Go out..visit some friends
catch some local music
Hug or call your kids
give a nod,a hand, a thought
to someone who could use it.
(and it you are the one give it to yourself)

Remember:
"Whatever the question, love is the answer.
Whatever the problem, love is the answer.
Whatever the illness, love is the answer.
Whatever the pain, love is the answer.
Whatever the fear, love is the answer.
Love is always the answer because, Love is all there is."

Work for and Vote Dem...

tap yer toes and smile
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4jKF4LWV iE

Peace/Dance/Resist
Nogo Postal

by nogo postal 2008-05-30 01:41PM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

Jerome is posting.  He said Obama did something wrong.

I am shocked, SHOCKED, I tells ya.

by agpc 2008-05-30 01:52PM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

What do Clinton supporters think Obama should have said?  Real question.  If the campaign is ending (and let's assume for the sake of argument that it is), Obama will have to do a lot of work to win over Clinton's supporters (and those who supported her who want the Democratic party to win will have to be part of that).

So what, specifically, should Obama have said?

by IncognitoErgoSum 2008-05-30 02:11PM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

Jerome answered this in his post. did you even read it? This was his chance to denounce the sexism that has infested this campaign. He did not. How hard would it have been to do so?

by doyenne49 2008-05-30 02:31PM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

Jerome inc..

Some women are not afraid..http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqCYFpUAJ 2Q

by nogo postal 2008-05-30 02:24PM | 0 recs
new AP story

As I've said before, the AP feed is what most Americans read.  Here's a choice part of the AP's latest article, released about 6:30 EST:

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hoD5U mGsKxR-pdYmCj3yYT19N_0wD91084OG3

The relationship between Obama, a one-time community activist on Chicago's South Side, and the outspoken priest at the activist St. Sabina Church has been a long one.

As a state senator, Obama secured two grants related to Pfleger's church -- one for $100,000 to repair The Ark community center at the church in 2000 and the other for $125,000 for computers at the church's employment resource center.

For his part, Pfleger, 59, has donated $1,500 to Obama's campaigns for state office and another $1,500 to his presidential campaign.

Aides say Obama has rarely visited St. Sabina, although he cited Pfleger, along with Wright, as one of his spiritual advisers in a 2004 Chicago Sun-Times story.

So now Americans are learning not only that Obama hangs around with bigots like Pfleger but that money changes hands between them too.

by katmandu1 2008-05-30 02:57PM | 0 recs
Re: new AP story

What Father Plfelger said was really dumb and offensive and the AP article does not even quote the clinton reaction saying she wished Obama had said more.
They only repeat Obama had nothing to do with it and go on to say this:

He has hit the streets, sometimes with busloads of parishioners in tow, to protest Jerry Springer's television show, stores that sell drug paraphernalia and gun violence. He's been arrested for acts of civil disobedience, such as smearing red paint on alcohol and tobacco billboards. Last year, he and the Rev. Jesse Jackson were arrested during a protest of a suburban gun shop; charges were later dropped.

Pfleger's fight to make the community safe is an intensely personal one. He's adopted three children, one of whom was gunned down near the church in 1998.

Pfleger has urged parishioners to pay prostitutes and drug users so they could share their faith with them. He has offered his church as a place where controversial figures can express their views. Farrakhan spoke there, as did the Rev. Al Sharpton.

I hate this story and I really think Father P. is dumb
But it is one-day embarassment.

From the RBC circus to Puerto Rico to the flood of SDs to SD/MT to the end fo the primary we won't have time to wallow in that filth much further.
But that's why I hate religion mixing with politics

by Benjaminomeara 2008-05-30 03:35PM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

If Obama had directly apologized, it wouldn't have made any difference.  We all know these people are the kind of ignorant people who Obama has been attracting.  An apology would have just looked fake.  His supporters don't want him to win, or they wouldn't keep doing insulting, stupid things. How dumb can you get.

by Scotch 2008-05-30 03:05PM | 0 recs
reconciliation...

...is, as someone else noted, a two-way street. Both candidates have work to do. Both candidates missed opportunities to be nice with each other during the campaign, say, by challenging screwball "debate" mdoerators not to ask stupid gotcha questions.

by joeldanwalls 2008-05-30 03:44PM | 0 recs
Re: Missed opportunity by Obama

So sad that McCain saw the opportunity to jump in and defend Clinton.  Nice job Obama!  Let's have McCain come across as the sympathetic one.  We all know he is going to be courting the pissed off Clinton supporters.  Of course Obama should just sit back and do nothing because that will really be helpful.  Whatever.  I am tired of being disappointed in the Democrats.

by JustJennifer 2008-05-30 05:24PM | 0 recs
counting Michigan

I seem to recall that New Hampshire and Iowa are first so that a person may run there without having name brand or being a multi-millionaire.  Nothing against Florida or Michigan, but they have 35 million between them and if they were first, the election would be closed to ordinary citizens.  That is why Clinton's people voted last year not to allow any states to move ahead of the four small ones.

Therefore, the only correct penalty for Michigan is to count none of their delegates and to create a punishment for their superdelegates, namely, that any of them who voted to go ahead of NH and Iowa not be granted any vote and not be allowed to attend the convention.

Florida is different because the Republicans moved the date out from under them.  Still, there was ample time for a re-vote and they blew it. So they get the minimum penalty of 1/2 their votes taken away. The rest of the votes are distributed according to the results from the election, such as it was.  They get no super delegates either, since they managed to conspire to fail to provide a re-vote.

by ottothewise 2008-05-30 09:01PM | 0 recs

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