Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

After a week of being inundated with Obama surrogates unhelpfully dismissing the notion that Barack Obama would deign to choose Hillary Clinton as his VP nominee, a majority of voters, including 3/4 of Clinton supporters, are signaling loud and clear that that's exactly what he should do.

In a USA TODAY/Gallup Poll, 55% of Democrats and Democratic-leaning independents also would like Illinois Sen. Barack Obama to choose Clinton as his running mate, although there's notable resistance among his backers. [...]

Three of four Clinton supporters would like to see her on Obama's ticket. But 52% of Obama supporters would rather he "choose someone else."

In other words, the first unifying gesture for a man who's run on his ability to unify would be to choose the person who came in a close second for the ticket. It puzzles me to hear people automatically dismiss the idea of Clinton as VP. For one thing, as this poll proves, the pick it would assuage Clinton's extremely passionate army of supporters, who Obama is going to need in the general -- and I'm not just talking for votes. But in addition, a Clinton pick has the added benefit of shoring up Obama's demographic weaknesses (working class whites, latinos, women), his perceived deficiency in the resume department, which, quite frankly, I suspect would cause more people to defect to McCain than Obama's race would, and it would balance out his lofty post-partisan inspirer-in-chief persona with an in the trenches fighter, one who for once would beat the pants off the Republican VP nominee in a debate.

As for the cons, well, I do find the argument that it would be counter to Obama's message of a new kind of politics rather compelling, but the benefits that would accrue to the ticket overall would far outweigh any thematic incongruence. And as for the personality conflict argument or the "what would Obama do with Bill" argument, please, Obama says time and time again this campaign is not about him; surely his choice for VP should be about way more than who gets along with whom and Clinton on the ticket would be far more likely to enable the transformation Obama wants to achieve than hinder it.

I was glad to see Hardball's analysis of Obama's most likely VP picks omit Bill Richardson from contention. Not only is Richardson horribly gaffe-prone, but I just don't think a black/brown ticket is realistic.

As for another popular pick, Gov. Kathleen Sebelius, I have to say I'm puzzled. I suppose her being a Democrat in a red state brings that thematic congruence to the ticket, but little else. Certainly her dud of a State of the Union response alone should disqualify her as not ready for prime time, but ultimately I agree with Dem strategist Steve McMahon who said on Hardball yesterday that national security experience is going to be much too important to Obama's choice of VP for Sebelius to be seriously considered.

It's no accident that the consensus pick as the "best" choice for Obama on Hardball yesterday was a Republican, Chuck Hagel, for his national security experience (read: gravitas) and the message it would send vis a vis Obama's post-partisan message of inclusion. Which is to say that the Democrats on the list all have something that makes them problematic. Is Hillary Clinton's so-called divisiveness so problematic that it should keep her off the ticket? Seems to me that not only does Hillary Clinton balance out Obama's weaknesses -- the true utility of a VP choice -- but when it comes to the Democratic base, she's far more of a unifying pick than a divisive one.

Tags: 2008 Presidential election, Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, unity ticket (all tags)



Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

I've been an Obama backer from the start and I've felt since NH that Obama and Clinton would be on the same ticket and that they were just fighting for the top.  After 3/5, I have believed that it became nearly a virtual certainty that Obama would have to pick Clinton.  My opinion hasn't changed, and I think that Clinton will make a fine VP.

by NJIndependent 2008-05-13 09:21AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

Two halfs (of the Democratic party) make a whole?

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-13 09:43AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

With Hillary's famed divisiveness, that's a whole 48% of the vote!

by Terrance Manley 2008-05-13 09:59AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

Not only is it attaching Hillary's divisiveness to his ticket, it directly diminishes his core message of hope through a new brand of politics.  That hope is leveraged on Obama's integrity.  

but the benefits that would accrue to the ticket overall would far outweigh any thematic incongruence.
 This, Todd, seems to be written by someone who has no appreciation for (perhaps no belief in?) Obama's integrity.

by bekhardt 2008-05-13 10:11AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

I think that would be belief in.

Todd's decent, honest, and highly intelligent, at least as far as my reckoning goes.  But people who were never for Obama in the first place don't see how undermining this is, or how little sense it makes.

It cuts both ways - had Clinton won, I would not want Obama on that ticket.  (I would want Clinton to win and would work to make that happen, just to be clear).

by Jordache 2008-05-13 10:25AM | 0 recs
Who would you have picked?

... I'm curious. Edwards would have been a better choice.

by RisingTide 2008-05-13 10:28AM | 0 recs
Re: Who would you have picked?

Since I'm not in the campaign's head, so to speak, it's hard for me to say, but I always assumed Evan Bayh would be their choice.  I like him.

Or Clark.  Not Edwards - I'd want him in a position with REAL power, and the Clinton model of the vice-presidency is a weak one.

by Jordache 2008-05-13 10:33AM | 0 recs
Re: Who would you have picked?

Just curious.

Don't bite my head off I am just asking here.

But how do you think that Sen. Clinton's supporters are going to read this? If half the
Democratic party supports Sen. Clinton? Especially now if you feel that Sen. Obama has the nomination locked up but Sen. Clinton's supporters do not.

It's been a bitter primary. Lots of fussing on both sides here on MyDD. Yes there are bitter and vocal supporters on both sides. If Sen. Obama looked over Sen. Clinton for someone else I shouldn't wonder that her supporters would question their support for Sen. Obama. Why should they go somewhere where that they think their candidate and they themselves are so visibly not wanted.

You can't ignore Sen. Clinton's supporters. You need them to win in the General Election.

As for if they like one another or not. Someone in this thread has already mentioned the Reagan Bush primary division. Voodoo Economics. They also mentioned the Kennedy/Johnson ticket where there was no love between them just the cynical observation that they needed Johnson on the ticket to get elected.

With Sen Obama and Sen. Clinton on the same ticket don't you get both 1/2's of the Democratic party.

Don't two halves, of the Democratic Party, make one whole ticket? Wouldn't it be prudent for me to make the same arguement if it were Sen. Clinton's choice for vice president?

OH and hey. I almost forgot. One of the functions of the Vice President is to preside over the Senate and cast deciding votes. If Sen. Clinton is so good in the Senate, wouldn't she be great at this role in the Senate?

I'm asking not pontificating. :D

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-13 11:04AM | 0 recs
Re: Who would you have picked?


bored now is one of the folks reminding us about the Reagan/Bush ticket and their primary disagreements as well as the disagreements between Kennedy and Johnson.

Thank you bored now for the historical reference.

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-13 11:17AM | 0 recs
Re: Who would you have picked?

I've answered the difference between Kennedy/Johnson and Reagan/Bush with Obama/Clinton elsewhere.

But I put a more complete answer below.

by Jordache 2008-05-13 11:20AM | 0 recs
Re: Who would you have picked?

Thanks. Not trying to pot stir and I would like to know.

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-13 12:29PM | 0 recs
Re: Who would you have picked?

It's a totally legitimate question and I wouldn't dream of biting your head off.  Or your 12 dogs.

I understand that Clinton supporters are every bit as behind their candidate as I am behind mine, and that their reasons are just as valid as mine.  My opinion just goes to how I see the vice-presidency.  The goal is to attract attention to the top of the ticket, be coherent, and not to detract from the core themes of the President.  Hillary Clinton wouldn't do that.

She's too much her own candidate, with her own people, supporters, messages, themes, Washington power base, popular power base, etc.  The same would be true if it were the other way around. The VP has to be completely subordinate to the top of the ticket, otherwise the whole thing fails.  And whether or not she'd be willing to do that, the press would be covering the process of the whole thing - what's Bill's role?  Who's REALLY going to be in charge?  Do they even like each other? - you can imagine how it would be covered in the press, and I wonder if they'd ever be able to campaign on other terms.  

My observation of Obama is that he's particularly vulnerable to that sort of stuff - he's not as flexible a campaigner as she is.  He cannot hide his disdain for process or personal questions, and it comes off as aloofness.

by Jordache 2008-05-13 11:18AM | 0 recs
Re: Who would you have picked?

Wouldn't Democrats go with the Democrat in the Race, they have the same policies  and it is not half the Democrats that are loyal on  a personal level to Clinton.  It is a very small percentage, whatever people would like to believe, just like it is a small percentage of Obama Democratic supporters loyal to him personally over policies or party.

But when you get to the General Election you are appealing to people that are independent and Republicans.  Does Obama make his case, when he flip-flops on every positive message he had during the primary process by picking Clinton?   When you have someone that is promoting compromise and inclusion can you embrace division, and aggression and still be true to your message?  Can you talk about reaching out to the world and change the way it views America when you embrace someone that has talked about Obliterating a country, and nuclear umbrellas?

This is not about policy diffrences they are the same on those issues, this is purely about message and image.  The President has the final say on policy, but when you bring in the antithesis of your message, can you survive the backlash.

This is not limited to the Democratic party, if just being "whole" was enough to win elections we would have alot more Democratic Presidents.  And Hillary is poison outside of the party.  And damages your image everywhere.  And Hillary is not the only way to bring in Hillary supporters, other options exist, ones that would do less overall damage.  

Do you really think it takes skill to say yes or no to break a tie?

by Tumult 2008-05-13 11:35AM | 0 recs
Re: Who would you have picked?

Even Dan Quayle managed to get that one right.  We have Justice Thomas to thank for his brilliant efforts.

We'll have a whole lot more if McCain wins.

by Jordache 2008-05-13 11:56AM | 0 recs
I still find compelling...

...the idea of Obama selecting one of Clinton's strongest supporters, such as a Strickland, Bayh or Rendell.  Maybe that's being "too cute by half," but I think Clinton would be a more effective advocate as Senate Majority Leader than VP.  

by mascho 2008-05-13 09:21AM | 0 recs
Re: I still find compelling...

for me it's Wesley Clark or bust!

by terra 2008-05-13 09:26AM | 0 recs
Re: I still find compelling...

I don't think bust is qualified.

by deminva 2008-05-13 09:30AM | 0 recs
Re: I still find compelling...

OMG Sexism! The glass ceiling reveals itself! They're trying to prevent a woman from ever getting a VP nod! Oh wait....

by nwodtuhs 2008-05-13 09:49AM | 0 recs
Re: I still find compelling...

Actually, on second thought, my comment might be a bit offensive.

I do think Hillary overplayed the gender card to a ridiculous gratuitous extent, but of course I'm not denying the glass ceiling exists. I just don't think it's been Hillary's problem.

by nwodtuhs 2008-05-13 09:51AM | 0 recs
I'd love to see Clark on the ticket!!

... that said, i don't think it will happen. Frown.

by RisingTide 2008-05-13 10:29AM | 0 recs
Re: I still find compelling...

Then again, one has to consider that the VP position has changed somewhat since 1992 and definitely since 2000.  Currently, it is almost like the position of prime minister.  Do you think Hillary would turn up her nose at that level of power and responsibility?  Of course, if she did get the VP slot, one would only hope she would conduct herself better, and that she would be held more accountable for her actions, then the current dictator who fills the office.

by wilder 2008-05-13 09:37AM | 0 recs
Re: I still find compelling...

My dog would conduct himself better than the current VP/dictator.  Needless to say, and  any Dem would behave better.

by Denny Crane 2008-05-13 10:33AM | 0 recs
Re: I still find compelling...

The VP slot is more like prime minister now only because the president is more like an hereditary monarch.  

by Headlight 2008-05-13 12:29PM | 0 recs
Re: I still find compelling...

True.  Obama could certainly exercise decisions without clinging to his VP like a life raft.  But even Bill Clinton delegated a lot of authority to Al Gore, and I don't think Obama is quite as much of a policy wonk as Bill Clinton was, and so might be willing to leave that role to a wonkier VP.

My point is that the role has been expanded, and once that has happened, it will be difficult to put the genie back in the bottle.

by wilder 2008-05-13 12:41PM | 0 recs
Re: I still find compelling...

The VP's role has been bigger in the last 16 years, but the constitutional role remains exactly the same, and all authority is only by delegation from the President.  If BO decided as a matter of political expediency to put Clinton on the ticket, there is no reason at all that once in office he would not have the option of leaving her and Bill in the VP's house at the observatory.  The big problem she will have in getting the VP slot is that she feels like she's owed the slot, rather than all the other people who could be considered who would feel honored and priviledged and owe Obama their undying loyalty.  Clinton isn't loyal to anyone but herself and Bill.  

by Headlight 2008-05-14 02:41AM | 0 recs
Re: I still find compelling...

I agree. Picking a Clinton supporter would be a good way to bridge the gap. Someone at the convention that could say "I supporter Senator Clinton in the Primary, and Now I am honored to be the Vice Presidential candidate for our Nominee Senator Obama." Wesley Clark is my personal favorite pick.

by Christopher Lib 2008-05-13 10:35AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

Is it me or did Clinton supporters suddenly fall in love with Obama?

"empty suit"
"speeches, no action"
"not a Muslim, as far as she knows"
"hasn't passed the commander-in-chief test"
"plagiarized speeches"

Would you do it? Hipocrites!

by comingawakening 2008-05-13 09:22AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

It's not the hypocrite part I'm worried about, but all those quotes by Clinton, and other, worse quotes that you haven't mentioned "He hasn't crossed the commander-in-chief threshold" make a unity ticket impossible.

It would be a laughingstock.  How can Hillary Clinton, who thinks all that Barack Obama is not qualified, still be his vice-president.  And how can Barack Obama, whose entire campaign message has been "we need to turn the page", take her?

That ticket makes no sense, and would create so much white noise that it would be impossible to campaign with any kind of clear message.  Not to mention the practical aspect - the press would NEVER stop asking Clinton about her late February quotes.  And she would never have a legitimate answer to them.

by Jordache 2008-05-13 09:35AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

Two words: Voodoo economics.

Reagan still picked Bush Sr. as his VP.

Lyndon Johnson was no friend of Kennedy, and had loads more experience, but still accepted the VP slot.

by wilder 2008-05-13 09:40AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

Point. Concur.

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-13 09:45AM | 0 recs
It's not just that they were opponents, but...

that there is so much video of her saying negative things about Obama that it would be difficult for Obama to have her on the ticket.  There was not video of all the nasty things that Johnson said about Kennedy or vice versa.  There is video of Hillary calling Obama basically an empty suit.  There was very little video of Bush questioning Reagan's suitability to be president.  The most popular video is the "voodoo economics" thing.  That is nothing like Hillary questioning whether Obama can be Commander-in-Chief.  It's going to be very difficult to have all the juicy video for Republicans to use and have her on the ticket.  That's why I wonder if it would be a good idea for her to be on it.

by nklein 2008-05-13 10:13AM | 0 recs
Re: It's not just that they were opponents, but...

And those EXACT words would be used AGAINST Obama if Clinton was on the ticket.  Sorry, no dice for Clinton.

by tracey webb 2008-05-13 10:37AM | 0 recs
I'm sorry, I don't understand...

what you are trying to say.

by nklein 2008-05-13 11:25AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

I think "voodoo economics" and "my opponent hasn't crossed the commander-in-chief threshold" are in different universes.

No one ever said that two people with policy differences can't occupy the same ticket, but to question someone's entire candidacy, and then be their VP?

And there's the other issue too, which is that HRC doesn't belong on that ticket.  One of the explicit promises of Obama's campaign is to stick to the issues and be substantive etc. at all times.  You cannot say that and then offer up a ticket that promises a non-stop soap opera for the next 4 years, at least as far as the media is concerned.

by Jordache 2008-05-13 10:31AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

One was addressing a big substantive issue of 1980, the economy.  The other was addressing a big substantive issue of the present - leading troops, terrorism, foreign policy.  So while "voodoo economics" doesn't seem like such a big deal to us today, it might have made as big an impression on voters of 1980 as anything Clinton, or for that matter, Obama, has said.  

Plus, I doubt that's the only criticism Candidate HW Bush made of Reagan.

by wilder 2008-05-13 12:50PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

VoooDooo economics is one statement about one aspect regarding policy differences. Clinton's comments questioned Obama's experience, background, and ethics (plagiairism). Very different.

Kennedy was shot dead in Texas, Johnson took control.

by comingawakening 2008-05-13 10:33AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

What does Kennedy being shot have to do with the fact that two men who didn't like each other very well chose to run on the same ticket?  Are you saying Hillary couldn't as effective as Johnson was should Obama faced that tragic end?

by wilder 2008-05-13 12:45PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

two words - stupid idea

by danfromny 2008-05-13 10:51AM | 0 recs
see my comment below on the reagan...

bush ticket...

by bored now 2008-05-13 11:08AM | 0 recs
Re: see my comment below on the reagan...

I've been spreading your message borednow.

Also that if Sen. Clinton has such excellent creditials for the senate, that would dove tail nicely with one of the functions of a Vice President and that is to preside over the Senate. Be eyes and ears in the senate for the President.

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-13 11:14AM | 0 recs
I agree

But I worry not only about the election but about what would happen afterwards, with Clinton essentially sabotaging Obama at every turn just to win the spotlight. That would just be a complete disaster. I do hope Obama does not find himself obliged to put up with her.

by Fairy Tale 2008-05-13 09:44AM | 0 recs
Re: Now that's

Stop with the negative feelings about the Dem nominee for prez.  He's way better than McSame. He will beat him soundly unless nay-sayers like you can't get over Hillary losing the primary race (of her own doing), and stay home or stupidly cross over and vote for Gramps.  

Get over the primary results.  Obama has taken the lead, will get the nomination and it's on to Nov!

P.S. I early voted for Hillary in CA, but I had my cry, now I'm ready to support Obama.

by citizensane 2008-05-13 12:32PM | 0 recs
Change with Experience?

Color me jaded, but this seems like a recipe for disaster.

I agree with Ezra Klein (for once):

Will they be able to keep their sprawling universe of well-connected confidantes from leaking tales of their displeasure to the press? Will they want to? What happens when the first Time magazine cover comes out with Obama staring down the Clintons, and the tagline is, 'Who's Really Running the Country?' It's such an obvious story that it can be predicted, with almost perfect certainty, right now.

by bookish 2008-05-13 10:12AM | 0 recs
Re: Change with Experience?

That's a good point.

Whether it happens that way or not, the media is going to be constantly looking for an angle.  And what about The Big Dog? etc.

It's just no good.  The ticket makes no sense.

by Jordache 2008-05-13 10:49AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

I totally agree.  The ticket doesn't make any sense.  Not to mention she would help to energize the Republican base just as much as if she were at the top of the ticket.  She doesn't bring a whole lot I'm afraid.

Having said that, I suppose there's always a chance she will be the VP candidate and I'm ready to go to the mat for her and Obama this fall!

by nintendofanboy 2008-05-13 10:28AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

Please don't mix in the Muslim thing with the others, it's not the same thing.

And it's "hypocrites."

I really think Clinton should be at the top of the ticket.

by Zeitgeist9000 2008-05-13 09:36AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

The two of them on the same ticket would only be able to work if she was at the top.  She destroys his message as VP, but he doesn't impact any message she had.  If they are going to force the ticket together, they might as well put her on top.

by Tumult 2008-05-13 10:35AM | 0 recs

by tracey webb 2008-05-13 10:38AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

Why not include the Muslim comment with the others? And does it mean you agree with my other 5 points?

By the way, only 42% of Democrats agree with you. 50% agree the Obama should be at the top. Consistently.

by comingawakening 2008-05-13 10:42AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

I see you know how to spell "hypocrites" - experienced?

"Hillary: The Glory of America???" Holy sh_t. HRC is what you see as Glory?

by comingawakening 2008-05-13 10:45AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

If they ended up on the same ticket, would be the only thing that would cause me to NOT vote for Hillary. That, to me, would be a total sell-out, and I would bet most Obamaites feel the same way.

by muggle 2008-05-13 10:34AM | 0 recs

I think you meant "decide."

by McNasty 2008-05-13 09:22AM | 0 recs
Re: "deign?"

Yeah, really. What kind of horseshit is that? "Deign".

by danfromny 2008-05-13 10:53AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

Two reasons against it:

First, it allows the GOP to attack Clinton using all the ammo they have saved up just for this.  It isn't as if her and Bill's sordid past has just gone away.  It hasn't gone away.  We haven't talked about that stuff much, b/c Obama has courteously stayed away from it.  The Republicans will not.  I don't want to have to talk about Whitewater ever again, and I'm sure you don't either.  If she's on the ticket, we will be.

Second, perhaps he has a hard time believing she would be pleasant to work with.  

Third, I think that after Cheney it's important to put the VP back in their place; a Clinton VP would make that much more difficult, and would invite all sorts of comparisons to the current bunch.  NOT what we're looking for this Fall.

Why do people assume that she would be effective at VP?

by Lawyerish 2008-05-13 09:24AM | 0 recs
Because she did it before?

Much of her experience argument rests on her leadership role as First Lady, so certainly she knows the ins and outs of the VP office.

But I simply can't see her (with Bill in tow) not being a distracting, if not derailing, presence.  It just won't happen, but don't let me stop the pontificating.

by McNasty 2008-05-13 09:26AM | 0 recs
Re: Because she did it before?

Something would have to be done with Bill, overseas, long-term.  Anyone on any ticket with Hillary Clinton would have to have assurances that The Big Dog will not interfere with the Administration, and we all know he can't help himself with meddling.

by jarhead5536 2008-05-13 09:34AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

Exactly. If Hillary was on the ticket, I'd give you about 3-1 odds that she'd even make it to November. Too many skeletons in her closet. They'd eventually force her to drop off.

by Terrance Manley 2008-05-13 09:26AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

And at that point he is weak and not a fighter for throwing her under the bus.

by Tumult 2008-05-13 10:04AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

This argument drives me nuts. Do you think the GOP is going to hold back because HRC is or is not on the ticket.  Please.  It is it not whitewated it will be something else.  Do you think the GOP cares about facts.

These are the same people going around saying BO is a muslin.  And second we as a party need to do what is in the best interest of the democratic party and fuck what republicans think. Should we made decission because Rush will be meant to us.

And lastly i would rather HRC be on the ticket and have the GOP smearing her than BO. On the bottom of the ticket atttacks on her will be seen as piling on and sexest and personally i would love them to go after HRC as VP it takes some of the effort off of BO.


by giusd 2008-05-13 09:46AM | 0 recs
Like it or not, Ford won us the last national


It's better for us to have Republicans be racist (which there is a ton of history to point at), than be sexist (is there history on that?)

by RisingTide 2008-05-13 10:34AM | 0 recs
People are calling Obama a fabric?

This really IS the silly season...lol.

by Elsinora 2008-05-13 10:36AM | 0 recs
Re: People are calling Obama a fabric?

If I ever had doubts you were part of the tribe, that joke would have immediately put them to rest.

by Jordache 2008-05-13 11:02AM | 0 recs

Yes...they will FORGET all about, oh I don't know...Wright/Rezko/Ayers/"bitter-gate"/ "first time proud"...etc...etc...and just go after her, right?

Please name me the LAST TIME a VP either won or lost an election...ANY ELECTION...

by Nighttrain 2008-05-13 12:10PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

"Why do people assume that she would be effective at VP?"

Because VP's preside and work with the Senate.

If the folks in the Senate respect her and say she'll be an excellent senator, I guess they'll still say the same when she works with them as vice president.

You know when you move over to the executive branch you do count on your vice president to be your eyes and ears in the senate.

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-13 11:11AM | 0 recs
Why would you assume...

I guess the same reason why you would assume he would make a better president...

by Nighttrain 2008-05-13 12:11PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket

If she can't be at the top of the ticket then i'd like to see her as VP.

I can see some big advantages and some big problems.

The advantages are it would unify the party and lessen the number of defections to McCain, bring national security credibility, attract more women and get the Clinton machine fully behind Obama.

The problems i see are that McCain will be able to drag up everything she's said about Obama not being ready and use it to make the ticket look divided, they don't like each other personally, she doesn't really bring any states with her (but could help a lot in PA, OH, MO etc).

But bring on the dream ticket i say. These 2 candidates have energized millions of voters from different demographics, if we can marry Obama's coalition with Clinton's then we have a great chance of a blow out in November.

by liberalj 2008-05-13 09:24AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket

"The problems i see are that McCain will be able to drag up everything she's said about Obama not being ready and use it to make the ticket look divided"

Exactly. Do you really think Hillary could stomach taking back her many attacks on Obama?

by Terrance Manley 2008-05-13 09:25AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket

Agree 100%.  I want someone who thinks that an Obama/Clinton ticket is a good idea to respond to this.

by Jordache 2008-05-13 09:37AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket

There's problems with every VP choice. She would need to clearly state that she believes Obama is ready, that she wouldnt have accepted his VP nomination if she didn't think he was ready. She had her doubts but he proved her wrong.

by liberalj 2008-05-13 09:45AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket

I suppose that might work.  Good to see a Clinton supporter acknowledge the problem by the way - it's not that we're opposed to the idea because we're pissed off that she said it.

by Jordache 2008-05-13 12:01PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket

She said "I bring a lifetime of experience, Senator McCain brings a lifetime of experience, and Barack Obama brings a speech he gave."

Ok - so that was harsh!  But this is politics.  If Obama is the nominee, and if he selects Clinton as VP, Clinton will be forced to essentially eat those words and campaign as hard as possible for the ticket.  And Clinton is the preferred candidate of roughly 49% of the party (possibly over 50% by June 3rd) - so that endorsement carries some weight.  Would she ever do it?  I don't know - but if she does I think that is a major victory for Obama and a sign that the party can be unified for November.

If Obama picks someone else as VP, I don't think the Clintons will help him as much as they could, and I think Obama / McCain will be a very close race - I wouldn't be too surprised to see Obama lose.  I would be very surprised if the Dream Ticket lost.

by mikes101 2008-05-13 09:54AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket

Okay. Your wish is granted.

  1. We should ignore what does or doesn't fire up the Republican base. The base Obama has problems with is the Democratic base. A unified Democratic base = victory. A split Democratic base = defeat. Simple as that.
  2. Presidential nominees have a long history of picking running mates who said bad things about them and with whom they didn't really get along. George HW Bush called Ronald Reagan's economic plan "voodoo economics." That didn't stop Reagan from picking him for VP. An odder couple than JFK and LBJ would be hard to imagine, but it worked. Every time, the opposing party has tried to make something out of it for the general election, but it never stuck. It won't stick this time, either.
  3. We can all argue til the cows come home that Hillary and Barack are too different, but the fact of the matter is that, on policy, they are basically the same. The differences between them are largely ones of personality and style, and I happen to believe that they are complementary. Each one of them appeals in different ways to different people, and that's a good thing.
  4. Sorry to burst bubbles, but the folks who say that choosing Hillary takes away the anti-war and "good judgment" argument vis a vis McCain. They are wrong. Barack and Hillary both want to get out of Iraq and they don't differ dramatically on how they would do it. McCain wants to stay there for 100 years. People aren't so stupid that they can't see that. And the "good judgment" argument is over. It made a lot of people give Barack serious consideration in the beginning of the primary season, but what people are interested in now is, "what are you going to do about it now that we're there?"

I've probably missed a few points, but I think that gives you an idea of why I think an Obama/Clinton ticket would be a really good idea.


by Not the only Dem in KS 2008-05-13 09:58AM | 0 recs
The difference between those two instances...

and now is the huge cache of video of Hillary attacking Obama.  There was no such video of the harsh things Johnson said about Kennedy or vice versa.  And the harshest thing Bush said against Reagan was "voodoo economics."  This time is different.  If Hillary is the nominee (perhaps even if she isn't), the amount of ads with her attacking Obama is going to be enormous.  I just don't think it will be helpful, if October is full of Hillary taking back all the negative things about Obama.  The focus in October should be the presidential nominee and it won't be if Hillary is the VP nominee.  Otherwise I think it's fine.

by nklein 2008-05-13 10:22AM | 0 recs
Re: The difference between those two instances...

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. However many ads or videos there are, I just don't think it will make any significant difference. People who are for Obama now will vote for him regardless; people who like Hillary and are okay with Obama will vote for the ticket regardless; people who like Hillary but are very unhappy with Obama are more likely to come around if she is on the ticket; people who hate them both will vote for McCain. Who is there who would be inclined to vote for Obama but would be dissuaded by these ads?

by Not the only Dem in KS 2008-05-13 12:41PM | 0 recs
All the peple who will make up their mind...

between when we have a nominee and November.  Having video of the VP candidate bashing the pres candidate is never good.

by nklein 2008-05-13 05:13PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket

When was the last time a Presidential candidate won or lost an election because of the VP choice?

And since when are we so AFRAID of Republicans coming out because she's on the ticket?  

by Nighttrain 2008-05-13 12:23PM | 0 recs

Hillary Clinton is a Republican turnout machine.

Take any problems that McCain would have turning out a depressed base and flush them down the toilet.

I HOPE TO GOD that Hillary herself turns down the job in a way that keeps her supporters in the fold.

by Terrance Manley 2008-05-13 09:25AM | 0 recs
Re: Oy.

I completely agree.  I don't like the visceral conservative hatred of Clinton, but I recognize it.  If Obama hadn't been leading in pledged delegates since Iowa, we would've heard much more about this.  The silence has been an implicit concomitant to Limbaugh's Operation Chaos--trying to weaken Obama as much as possible to prolong the race.  Talking out loud about how they hate Clinton wouldn't have helped Republicans in this effort.

If, on the other hand, the VP nod goes to Wes Clark, Republicans can attempt to trash his military credentials at their peril.

by deminva 2008-05-13 09:34AM | 0 recs
Re: Oy.

Sadly, the one thing that will hurt Wes Clark is his jewish problem. Which is BS, but some people believe it...

by Terrance Manley 2008-05-13 10:01AM | 0 recs
What Jewish problem?

Did he say something stupid or something?

by nklein 2008-05-13 10:25AM | 0 recs
Re: What Jewish problem?

Yeah it was a silly gaffe - something about Jewish interests pushing the US into the Iraq war. On it's face it's sort of true, but it's not something you say.

But who knows?

by Terrance Manley 2008-05-13 11:30AM | 0 recs
Well I disagree with your assessment...

that it is true, but it would probably preclude him from being picked on the ticket.

by nklein 2008-05-13 11:41AM | 0 recs
Re: Well I disagree with your assessment...

Well it's true in the sense that there were large Jewish activist groups pushing for the Iraq war (just like there were other activist groups pushing for it from the left to the right). That's all I meant.

What's not true is that they had any undo influence greater than anyone else (which was implied in Clark's comment and Jim Moran's later). That's just sillyness, and it's a classic trait of anti-semitism (the assumption that Jews have tons of power and are pulling the strings).

Though - and this is a more subtle point - the intertwined nature of the Republican Party, the Religious Right and hawkish pro-Israel interests sometimes makes for strange bedfellows. The Republicans love to play the Israel card to bring Jewish voters over to their more hawkish position on other issues. If you (generally) have a more hawkish/defensive position towards Islamic fundamentalists (as many Jews no doubt do - and who can blame them?), then it's not a big surprise that you'd be more inclined to favor a war in Iraq.

At any rate - being that my dumbass supported the war back in 2003 (I trusted Hillary Clinton's judgement) - I can understand how people can get carried away with these things!

by Terrance Manley 2008-05-13 11:51AM | 0 recs
I think you are partially right and partially...

wrong.  There are some hawkish pro-Israel groups (like AIPAC) who have been pushing this war, but I think more and more these groups are becoming divergent from American Jewish mainstream.  And while there is still an instinct in American Jews to be more hawkish with regards to Islamic fundamentalism, I think you'll see that that opinion is becoming less welcome in the Jewish community.  Moreover, more Jews opposed the Iraq in 2003 than supported it.  It was just that several Jewish institutions, like AIPAC, supported the war.

I see why it would be confusing b/c you see Lieberman and these major institutions supporting these hawkish positions.  And they get all the media coverage.  But I think of all the Jews in the Senate and the House, the majority opposed the war.  I may be wrong on that though.

by nklein 2008-05-13 12:29PM | 0 recs
Agreed, n/t

by KLRinLA 2008-05-13 10:12AM | 0 recs
Re: Oy.

hey Terrance Manley.

Save the draaaahmmaaa for your mama.


Love ya,

12 digs

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-13 11:20AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

You can't "buy" off Clinton supporters that easily.  The idea!  Yuck!

by bach 2008-05-13 09:25AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

Good lord. If putting her on the ticket doesn't work, what would?

by Terrance Manley 2008-05-13 09:28AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

Look, we've lost, fair and square, and although I personally feel that Obama is a deeply flawed and ultimately unelectable candidate, I will get out there and hustle for him because the alternative is inconceivable.  If Hillary knows what's good for her, she will refuse the offer (you know that Obama will be taken into a room and forced to make the offer, right?), and give up the idea of being President.  At her age, it was now or never, and apparently it's gonna be never.  She has a long and historic career ahead of her in the Senate, indeed she will be the heiress to the progressive legacy of Ted Kennedy.

by jarhead5536 2008-05-13 09:40AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

Yeah, I think this is about right.  Clinton doesn't stand to gain all that much by being Obama's VP.  The optics of a unity ticket would be great, at least at first, but she could accomplish so much more in the Senate, particularly if the Dems have 55 seats as they as supposed to after this year.

Plus, my gut tells me that this race will be won or lost in Colorado, New Mexico, and Nevada.  The folks out West are sort of the "other minority" that never seems to get a candidate for Prez.  McCain may fit well enough to incite turnout in those states.  A VP pick from the Interior West would help Obama, I think.

by the mollusk 2008-05-13 10:01AM | 0 recs
Thats how I see it also

I can imagine Hillary as President (though I prefer Obama), but I think she would be more effective in the Senate or as a Governor than VP.

Also, when you consider that the VP slot is usually considered a queue for the presidency 8 years later, what does that say about Obama's rejection of the DLC and embracing of the 50 state strategy?  Do we resign ourselves to reverting back to DLCism in eight years?  I'm not saying that makes Clinton a bad pick, only that it is a consideration I've not heard any of the pundits talking about.

Just a thought.

by protothad 2008-05-13 10:14AM | 0 recs
I don't think he'll be forced to make the offer

I think most of the old pols in power have covertly decided that they don't like hillary's backers.

by RisingTide 2008-05-13 10:45AM | 0 recs
Re: I don't think so

Based on what. LOL Have you polled the "old pols"?

The Gallop pol cited says 55% of Democrats AND Democratic leaning INDEPENDENTS. Please note the influence of Independents. They don't seem to mind Sen. Clinton or her "baggage" and they don't have any great overwhelming ties with the Democrats. They don't have to so that's why they call them "Independents". Outside of the influence of "Old Pols".

I keep hearing how Sen. Obama is courting Independents. But to tell truth, from what I've seen here, seems like Sen. Obama's supporters can take 'em or leave 'em. So who is running the show in Sen. Obama's camp? Which is it. Inclusive or not?

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-13 01:14PM | 0 recs
I like to be inclusive...

but I wonder, honestly, where we get more votes. From red republicans, who like obama's practicality and 'don't flip over the boat' style, or from dem-leaning independents.

I don't think that any of the old pols will care as much about polls.

I think it's pretty obvious, from how scrupulously neutral the big cheeses are being, that they support Obama (dean especially, as we know he has a bit of a beef with the 50+1 strategy)

by RisingTide 2008-05-14 05:35AM | 0 recs
Re: I like to be inclusive...

"...I think it's pretty obvious, from how scrupulously neutral the big cheeses are being, that they support Obama (dean especially, as we know he has a bit of a beef with the 50+1 strategy)"- Rising Tide

Since when has Howard Dean had a problem with a "50 state strategy". During the midterm elections he was a supporter of a "50 state" strategy. He received critisim for giving money to candidates in states that other Democrats said were very Red State.

Please support your assertion that Dean would be against donating money to all states when he did so in the Mid Term election. With success I might add. There was surprise when the Democrats gained seats in the Senate then.

Not attacking you, just very surprised. Did I miss something?


by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-16 06:22PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People


More Drraaaahmmmmaaa.

Save the drama.

Although all things concidered. I don't blame a Sen. Clinton's supporter for saying this. They have been asked to quit the primaries since they started.


by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-13 11:23AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

VP isn't a dealbreaker for me, he chooses who he chooses.

If choosing Clinton will bring unity to the Democratic party, then fine.  But I doubt she wants it, and I doubt that it would make the more ardent Clinton supporters accept Obama as the nominee.

So, what about it, Clinton supporters?  If Obama is the nominee, do you want Clinton as his veep?  And will that cause you to support and vote for the ticket?

by bosdcla14 2008-05-13 09:25AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

Yes, I would want Clinton as VP.  And yes, that would cause me to support the ticket.

There are other scenarios that would also cause me to support Obama - and I certainly won't vote for McCain - but right now I'm planning on writing in Hillary and reserving judgment.

by mikes101 2008-05-13 10:01AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

You go right ahead and write in Hillary.  That will help put the country back on course.

by nintendofanboy 2008-05-13 10:40AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

Fantastic! Of course most Clinton supporters would want Obama to choose Clinton because that's who they want on the ticket no matter what. The rest of the voters are unlikely to know the name of any other national dem in contention, let alone wieght their long-term strengths.

Obama does NOT have to choose Clinton. He has to choose the best Veep to compliment him, and win the general.

Choosing Clinton would be a move to win the Primary. But that's over.

Choosing Clinton would be nice for a while, but she carries so much baggage, both from her time with Bill in office and from the Primary ... why should he?

Every ad the GOP would have to run would be: "Obama's VP on Obama: He sucks!" and they could run whatever clips of Hillary scolding "shame on you" or "the heaves will open up" and Obama gets to spend the general dealing with that -- and whatever Bill ends up saying to some random small town that implies Obama is a child molester.

Obama needs to choose a veep that best compliments his vision. Because the election is only part of it -- you want a veep who will be a good veep too. Forget past animosity or what have you. If Hillary is that person, great. But I've seen nothing to suggest that.

by Lettuce 2008-05-13 09:25AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

Hear that sound Lettuce.

That is the sound of the doors being slammed.

By Sen. Clinton supporters.

Who've had it up to their eyeballs with being told that their opinions don't count.

Good bye Sen. Clinton supporters.

Oh and that other sound you here.

That is the sound of Sen. McCain supporters.

Shutting the doors on Sen. Obama's campaign in the general election. Not because of Sen. Clinton. Oh no.

But because of the Sen. Obama supporters who called folks idiots for even entertaining the notion of voting for Sen. McCain.

There are my darling only two choices in the General Election.

I ask ya' now.

If someone asked for your vote while spitting on your shoes? Would you vote for them?

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-13 11:29AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

Clinton has high negatives we really haven't seen pressed at yet. Give me ONE article about Barack attacking a scandal from the Clinton years. Do it. You can't find one, because he hasn't. the REPUBLICANS will, though, and Obama will have to deal with that. The first rule of picking a vice president is DON'T pick one with baggage.

by terra 2008-05-13 09:26AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

The FIRST rule of picking a VO is to unite the party.

As to baggage?  It really doesn;t matter much, the GOP attack machine has baggage on everybody.

Watch what happens to Obama's favorables when they get thru with him, never mind his VP.

Ther eason whhy Obama didn't use the "baggage" is simply that no one cares about it any more.

It happened a long time ago, and it's run its course.  Everybody knows that Whitewater did not produce a sigle Clinton indictment or arrest, that  Bill and Hillary have never been indicted or arrested or convicted of anything, despite hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars spent.

Hell, when Bill left office, his approval was in the 60's!  So much for baggage.  I would worry more about Obama if his free pass in the Press wears out.  You Obama people thought it so unfair that they almost took him down because of his Pastor?  Just wait.

As to that ONE article?  The Obama campaign has consistently launched personal attacks on her based on every piece of scurrilous slime they could find.  She was called by Obama or his surrogates "cold" "calculating" "lacking scruples" "do anything to win" "emasculating" "shrill" "race-baiting" "hard" "driven by ambition" and on and on and on.

Obama will be privileged to have someone as well-rounded, powerful, and supremely helpful as a VP:  Remember if we don't take a supermajority in the Senate we are headed for a LOT of stalling, filibustering, and obstructionism, and Hillary could be the key to breaking the GOP in the Senate.

I hope he doesn't offer it to her:  I will be happy to see his Administration floundering around trying to put together coherent and effective policies for the American people.

by dembluestates 2008-05-13 10:09AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

I know it is hard for people that have been ok with Clinton's inconsistent campaign messages to understand.  But Clinton cannot be VP and Obama be consistent with his campaign.  That is a bad thing when you are trying to win over independents  and left leadning Republicans.  Clinton is a 51% candidate at best, he should not want to attach himself to that, or any theme her campaign has had this election cycle.  Do we want to try to win the country with a VP that thinks only about 16 states count?

by Tumult 2008-05-13 11:16AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

I don't think Obama has been consistent in his campaign.

He has rather changed messages several times, from "Hope" to "Change" to "Unity" back to "Change".

As to Left-leaning Republicans, Obama's branded as "the most Liberal" of all the Senators.

Hillary is a far more likely candidate to garner support from them than Obama is.

The most accurate description of Obama;s support is narrow.  But deep.

Hillary braodens support for him from day one.

I know there is a lot of animosity and outright pure peevish hatred for Hillary and us, her supporters, that runs deep as well among Obama supporters.

It's your loss.

by dembluestates 2008-05-13 01:03PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

That is two diffrent arguements, I have heard for Hillary.  She does better with "true" Democrats in Blue States.  And she is broad but not deep.  If your support is specific to blue states and mainly democrats then you are not broad, you are deep. If they were both true she wouldn't be behind.  Which is alot of what the peevish hatred is based on, you try to argue all positions, with no intellectual honest.  Now we are trying to be sold on the white working class voter, which has only been true in the rust belt, he has won the whitest states in the country, are we pretending they don't have a working class?

by Tumult 2008-05-13 06:55PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

And when I said he has been consistent I am talking about the core themes he has run on, he talked about in his 2002 anti-war speech, and 2004 at the DNC.

by Tumult 2008-05-13 06:58PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

I don't think the unity ticket is a bad idea for Obama, it's a bad idea for Clinton.

Clinton is much better served in the Senate; being a super-star-powered Senator is a much meatier role than the largely ceremonial position of VP.  The Vice Presidency is, in all bluntness, really below someone of Clinton's stature.

I would hope if Obama offered her the position she'd turn it down; Obama can likely win without her on the ticket, and she is much much much more valuable for progressive causes as a leader in the Senate.

by davisb 2008-05-13 09:26AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

Actually one of the jobs of the vice president is to preside over the Senate. Be the eyes and ears for the president in the senate.

Where does it say ceremonial?


If she's so good in the Senate wouldn't she be a shoe in for VP. Since that is one of their jobs.

Just asking.

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-13 11:33AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

Actually I, and many others, have been unhelpfully dismissing the notion that Hillary Clinton would deign to choose to be VP Barack Obama. And the notion that that would be in her political best interests, in terms of maintaining her influence. Of course, we all see how well it worked out for Dole. I think she'd make a fine VP, I think she makes a better Senator.

And the fact that a poll suggests that most people think the 2nd slot should go to the most prominent office-seeker who hasn't gotten the top slot is, well, obvious.

I agree that Richardson is a bad choice; I'm constantly surprised that it's put out there as a reasonable option.

by Mandoliniment 2008-05-13 09:27AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

Secretary of State Richardson sounds about right to me.

by mikeinsf 2008-05-13 10:17AM | 0 recs
Biden sounds better to me.

by nklein 2008-05-13 10:29AM | 0 recs
What about Governor?

And the more interesting question, which state?

I agree though, I think she can do more in the Senate than as VP.

by protothad 2008-05-13 10:21AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

Hey ya Mandoliniment.

I was just thinking to myself. I thought, "Hmm. One of the jobs of the VP is to preside over the Senate. To be the "eyes and ears" for the president in the Senate. Liason if you will."  

But you are correct.

There are historical reasons why she wouldn't want to be VP.

(NB> I started to type "...hysterical..." instead of "...historical..." but decided against it. Thought it might be misunderstood. You know that I hope to someday be a writer. I love word play. I'm noting that here for you. Just a funny misuse of the word. A malapropism if you will. Give you a laugh.)

Now back to serious.

Sigh. This isn't over yet.

No clear nominee like on the Republican side of this election.

So guess best to keep on keepin on.

With the primary that is. :D

Oh and by the way.

This isn't in anyway a slam or arguement to your point. Not at all.

Just so you know. :)

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-13 11:56AM | 0 recs
Does she want it?

It seems to me one of the biggest strikes against this idea is that Clinton probably would not want it. She is unlikely to run for president from that position at age 68, and Obama's vp won't wield nearly the power that Cheney does.

If she is going to negotiate a reward from her near-win for the nomination I don't think vp will be it.

by Purplepeople 2008-05-13 09:28AM | 0 recs
Re: Does she want it?

Well actually all the more reason to go full out for this nomination. If 68 is too old to run, this would be her only shot at president.

Not a good idea to "pour gasoline on a fire".

But let's ask the question,"Why wouldn't she run for president at 68?"

Why in this day and age when folks live much longer and healthier lives would 68 be too old. Like sex and gender it's not a barrier to the job. As a matter of fact the Constitutions only mention of age is as a threshold not a barrier. In other words you have to be old enough not too old. Considering the longevity at the time the Constitution was writen, I would think that advanced years would have been considered a virtue not a hinderance!


by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-13 12:53PM | 0 recs
I'm completely against that idea.

We want a VP who will follow the direction of the P, not someone who has their own agenda, who will be an obstacle for change.  And particularly not someone who will play the old politics, the politics of lobbyists and back room deals.

As a new president, I would also not want a former president hanging around the White House, chatting up the cabinet, etc.

Nope, not for me.

by GFORD 2008-05-13 09:28AM | 0 recs
Re: I'm completely against that idea.

Who wants Carville and Lanny Davis and the other Clintonites around anymore? Or Bill? Thanks for the 90s. Go write books or something.

by danfromny 2008-05-13 11:00AM | 0 recs
There's no such thing as racism in America.

I've been told this repeatedly. So what's wrong with a black/brown ticket?

As far as Clinton for VP, that'd be a great way to increase GOP turnout in a year when they suck. You  have to weigh that as well.

by RLMcCauley 2008-05-13 09:28AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

yeah I think once the reality of the situation sets in HRC supporters will more and more start wanting a unity ticket to get Hillary in as the first VP.

I don't see a unity ticket happening anymore.

especially now that Barr is running.

by TruthMatters 2008-05-13 09:29AM | 0 recs
The Will of My Person: No Thank You!

by dystopianfuturetoday 2008-05-13 09:29AM | 0 recs
She brings nothing to the ticket.

I don't care what anyone states.  Her negatives, again talked about on MSNBC are out there and real.  And her name on the ticket ramps up the conservatives to back McCain (and he is still having an issue with them now) as an anti-Clinton vote.  Don't need the Clinton baggage, replayed in this campaign.  This is a CHANGE election, not a THROWBACK, one.

Obama's theme is CHANGE.  She does not fit the mode, she did not run as an agent of change, she ran as in 'incumbent' and it is, what it is.

She does not bring a state, red/purple to FLIP.  WE NEED THAT FOR NOVEMBER.

Lastly, the notion that it would be just her as VP is unrealistic.  WE all know it is bringing both, she and former President Bill Clinton to the ticket. Meaning, we have to deal with Bill Clinton and not staying on message.  Do we need this headache?

Finally, there is a big TRUST issue going on here.  Neither trust each other.

We do need a strong VP, there are too many others who are in states we NEED than Hillary Clinton.

I don't see her being on the ticket.

by tracey webb 2008-05-13 09:29AM | 0 recs
Re: She brings nothing to the ticket.

...except the OTHER half of the Democrats...that's all...you know...states like PA, OH, FL...just that...

by Nighttrain 2008-05-13 12:37PM | 0 recs
Re: She brings nothing to the ticket.

Yeppers. And these would be her supporters that Sen. Obama supporters have been rude to during this primary season.

I don't think  this is the time to be telling them, Sen. Clinton's supporters, put up or shut up.

Matter of fact it is exactly why a walk out on the floor of the Democratic convention my be something for them to concider.

I just don't feel the love and inclusiveness from  Sen. Obama's supporters. Not a way to win friends and influence folks.

You know these supporters are the ones telling Sen. Clinton to keep on running for the nomination all the way to the convention. And you know what? I hear tell there's alot of those Clinton supporters. About 48% of the Democratic party?

Why would the just automatically now vote for an Obama ticket?

I know that's what Sen. Obama's supporters have been saying. That the nominmee can't win in the general election without Sen. Obama's supporters. But fellas. It works both ways. :D You can't win without Sen. Clinton's supporter's either. Sorry. No one else brings as many voters to the table during the general election.

Like I said. That door swings both ways.

Just a thought.

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-13 01:05PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

The decision rests with Barack Obama. He has earned the right to be nominated and it is his call.

Whether it is HRC or anyone else. It is fine with me.
BO and his team, has the good judgement to make the right choice.
I'm with them 101%.

by MissVA 2008-05-13 09:30AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

Absolutely.   I found it offensive when Charlie Gibson tried to get both Obama and Clinton to "pledge" to take the other as a running mate.  

This diary is much the same.  

Obama has run his campaign in unexpected ways.   And he has done quite well.  

Now that he's won (or all but won), who are we to start demanding that he campaign OUR way?   He's taking a different path and one that may not be clear to us at the outset, but one which might not only lead to a win, but might also lead to a better way of campaigning, leading and relating to the American people.  

by ruscle 2008-05-13 09:52AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People
The truth is even with a big republican turnout they have lost a lot of ground to the democrats. I think this would be a winning ticket but Hillary would have to know her place and realize she is number 2.
In the end my guess is she will turn it down for some other type of position in  the Obama adm.She could never stand being number 2 to him.
by JOEL1954 2008-05-13 09:30AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

Sigh. Not VP. If he were to get the nod for Democratic nominee and get through the General Election. I guess he'll have fun dealing with her in the Senate if she isn't on the Democratic ticket. If she is as formidable as you're saying she will be in the Senate. Do you think she'll play nice with a president that has been dismissive in the primaries? One who has cost her not only the President spot but also the VP spot? Talk about a President having baggage.

If she's going to be devisive as VP I wonder what she'll do in the Senate. The Senate's only real governor by the president is the veto. Ask Pres. Clinton about the veto and the abortion issue. Republican Senate gave him no end of grief. Or ask Rep. Nancy Pelosi about the impeachment. I hear you don't have a veto proof Senate majority. I hear that from Rep. Pelosi's folks in relation to impeachment of Pres. Bush all the time. :)

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-13 12:41PM | 0 recs
Growth of veep role over time

Even if we treat Cheney's role in the current Administration as an outlier, the reality is that Presidents have increasingly entrusted their veeps with increasingly large roles in their administrations, starting with Carter and Mondale back in the late 1970s.  Nowadays, you'd really like the veep to play the sort of role that Gore did in the Clinton Administration.

As a result, I think the comfort level between the President and Veep isn't a trivial concern.  I don't see the strife between Obama and Clinton being papered over easily.

If this were 40 years ago, that wouldn't matter: he'd choose her as his running mate, then bury her as President of the Senate.  But it's not, so it matters.

by RT 2008-05-13 09:30AM | 0 recs
Another dud

Certainly her dud of a State of the Union response alone should disqualify her as not ready for prime time

Bill Clinton's keynote speech at the 1988 Democratic convention was called a dud. We all know how that turned out.

Try harder, Todd. I'm sure you can find a substantive reason to oppose her somewhere on the internet.

But you overlooked the apparent fact that many people support Hillary largely because of her gender, and Sibelius or Napolitano would appeal to them  -- and even some Republican women probably.

by Kobi 2008-05-13 09:30AM | 0 recs
Re: Another dud

I would take a Sibelius pick as almost a slap.  For all her talents, Kathleen is Hillary lite, a crumb thrown to the few voters that were supporting Hillary purely because she is a woman.  For me, another woman won't do.  I wanted Hillary because of her positions, not her gender.  This would almost be the mirror of Hillary picking Harold Ford in an attempt to appease Obama supporters if things were reversed.

by jarhead5536 2008-05-13 09:45AM | 0 recs
Re: Another dud

I was considering those who voted for Hillary due to gender (such as my wife). If you would consider Sibelius or Napolitano a slap, then I suspect no one BUT Hillary would satisfy you.

I despised Kerry in 2004. I even despised the guy he chose for his VP. But I voted for them in November for obvious reasons.

by Kobi 2008-05-13 09:56AM | 0 recs
I would have proudly voted Sebelius

for President. I like her.

Then again, I don't particularly care for Clinton's backers.

by RisingTide 2008-05-13 10:50AM | 0 recs
Re: Another dud

"But you overlooked the apparent fact that many people support Hillary largely because of her gender, and Sibelius or Napolitano would appeal to them "

LOL Their have been folks here at myDD repeatedly called anti feminist for making such a statement.

"-- and even some Republican women probably. "

Not to knock Sibelius. But I'd be thinking of worlds colliding if she were made the VP on the ticket. I'm kind of curious how she would compliment Sen. Obama.

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-13 01:22PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

It won't happen the republicans will bring out the endless scandals associated with the Clintons.  The last thing Obama needs is more baggage.

by obamaovermccain 2008-05-13 09:30AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

exactly instead of running against the Black guy they run against the shame of the nation facing another Clinton scandal.  Can't happen, won't happen.  

Without Bill around, she'd be a great VP candidate but a horrible VP.  She's way too ambitious and Obama would be looking over his shoulders for 4 years.  She's shown during this campaign what an opportunist she is.  No deal.  

There are better ways to win.  He's already polling 75-80% of Democrats already.  

by Hope08 2008-05-13 09:34AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

Off the cuff, I don't lend a lot of credence to the polls saying 3/4 of her supporters want her as the VP pick, given the wildly inflated numbers who also say they will vote for McCain over Obama in the fall. It's more likely an artifact of the close primary and an "at least she'll be on the ticket" response in the heat of the moment than a definitive statement that Sen. Clinton as VP is the only choice her supporters would accept.

Sen. Clinton certainly needs to be on the short list for consideration, but I think the downsides of her being the ultimate VP choice are being sold short here. The fact that having Sen. Clinton as the VP will lead to a divided White House and almost certain power struggles (which the press and the Republican minority in Congress will love to pounce on) is no small factor.

That, combined with the fact that foreign policy credentials are likely the top considerations in Obama's VP pick (Sen. Clinton doesn't do a great deal for him there) makes me think there are better possibilities out there.

Obama needs to think long and hard and make sure his pick unites the party as well as meets any other considerations, but just because Clinton could help unite the party for the general doesn't she's the ONLY choice who could do that.

by werehippy 2008-05-13 09:30AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

I like your analysis of the numbers.

As for me, the biggest "tell" of the whole political season when watching pundits is whether or not they think a unity ticket makes sense.  If they do, then they're likely Clinton supporters.  If they don't, then they're likely Obama supporters.  I'm talking about people within the party, or sympathetic to it, obviously - if Wolf keeps bringing up the unity-ticket it doesn't mean he's a Clinton supporter, it means he's a hack who only cares about process questions.

But the phenomenon is unmistakable.  Obama supporters, with very few exceptions, have never wanted a unity-ticket, regardless of who won.  Clinton supporters have been floating it since before Super Tuesday - obviously with Clinton on the top at first, but now with her as vice.

by Jordache 2008-05-13 10:58AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

If that is true?

It tells the supporters of Sen. Clinton the things that keep them running.

There is no place for the Clinton supporters in an Obama presidency.

But there is a place for Obama supporters in a
Clinton presidency.

That's pretty much it isn't.

Why this issue should go to the floor of the convention. Respect and a place in the Democratic party for those 48 to 50 percent of the Democrats who support Sen. Clinton.

Attention Superdelgates. Here's the problem of the 2008 Democratic primary in a nutshell.

And irony of ironies? The non inclusive segment of the Democratic party is the one whose platform is "Inclusion."

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-13 01:28PM | 0 recs
This could have worked - like 2 months ago

2 months ago before the mud really started flying this could have been viable. But there has been too much mud, too many accusations and too much drama to simply say "Oh well I only meant it at the time."

I honestly think this is more of a pipe dream than anything.

by Jon Niola 2008-05-13 09:31AM | 0 recs
Re: This could have worked - like 2 months ago


by Jordache 2008-05-13 09:41AM | 0 recs
Only if we want to lose in November

Here are the reasons Obama will not choose Hillary as a running mate. I'll preface them by saying she's certainly qualified for the job, but if Obama chooses her he lessens our chances against McCain. Here's why.

1. Her negatives outside the core Democratic Party are huge. Add that to his negatives, and we lose. Why would he take on her negatives?

2. One of his main arguments has been that he is the candidate to choose if you don't want "politics as usual". Choosing Hillary dilutes that message.

3. One of his strongest arguments against McCain has been their polar opposite positions against the war. If he puts Hillary on his ticket despite her vote for the war and subsequent support of that vote, he loses the high ground on this issue.

4. It's not clear what Bill's role would have been in a Hillary administration. It becomes even less clear if Hillary is the VP.

5. For the general election the VP candidate needs to take a secondary role to the Presidential candidate. Can Hillary, and even more so Bill, do that successfully.

6. She does not buy him enough on either the experience or national security fronts.

7. Since this primary has gone on long past it's expiration date, too much has been said and done between these two candidates. Were she the running mate then this would just provide fodder to the Republicans for anti-Obama ads.

8. She's a highly qualified candidate for VP, but there are other highly qualified candidates as well, who would probably make better choices as far as filling in Obama's perceived deficits and bringing along particular states.

I could probably thing of more reasons, but this should be enough.

by Travis Stark 2008-05-13 09:31AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

More reasons not to do it:

- Republicans will be motivated to vote against her.
- The media will spend six month talking about:
   1) What will Bill do with all that access to the Washington?
   2) Can Hillary and Obama work together?
   3) Can Obama trust Hillary?
   4) Who is really running the show?

They will parse every word Bill or Hillary says and compare them to Obama's words. It will be its own show and people will soon get tired of it and vote for McCain.

We need a strong administrator that people trust but without too much flair. Obama needs to be in charge of ticket and we need no distractions.

Having to "A" players doesn't work all the time. Ask the Redskins and the Yankees. The best teams are made up of people who compliment each other and that genuinely get along and respect each other. I think they might compliment each other in some areas but they don't get along.

Sorry - facts are a stubborn thing.

by comingawakening 2008-05-13 09:31AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

"Sorry - facts are a stubborn thing."

So are inanities treated as facts by the media.

by the mollusk 2008-05-13 10:05AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

Hey Todd: I agree with some of what you say here but take exception to a few things. It is perfectly understandable why some Obama supporters would not be too enthusiastic about picking Hillary. After so many months of doubt sowing, 3 AM phone calls etc, it is hard to imagine her being a genuine and enthusiastic subordinate to Obama. This isn't to say she couldn't do it but its hard to imagine and many supporters are probably not too ready to accept this. And of course, after Obama has spent so many months saying that Hillary represents the old way of politics it might be a tough sell to turn around and  say that she is just what he needs on his ticket.

That being said it is certainly a ticket that could be very powerful IF (and these are big IFs) all egos can be reigned in, Bill Clinton can accept third (or fourth) banana billing, and a GE plan can be derived that truly takes advantages of Hillary's strengths and minimizes her weaknesses (ie deploys her to the correct places).

Also, I have to express dismay for your statement that a black/brown ticket is unrealistic. After this primary season it is unwise and not too forward thinking to dismiss any possible pairing, especially along racial lines.

by wasder 2008-05-13 09:31AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

"... deploy her..."

Somehow I get the feeling that you'd be sending her to Siberia.


by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-13 01:33PM | 0 recs
Who is left?

Clinton probably doesnt want the job.

Sebelius will come off as weak on national security issues and experience.

Richardson has a whole bunch of problems, including things in his personal life.

Webb just told The Hill that he's not interested.

Brown just said the same thing.

by Fuzzy Dunlop 2008-05-13 09:32AM | 0 recs
Re: Who is left?


by MissVA 2008-05-13 09:44AM | 0 recs
Re: Who is left?

I have been pushing Strickland but a lot of people seem to think he's not really one of the top contenders.

by Fuzzy Dunlop 2008-05-13 10:04AM | 0 recs
Re: Who is left?

Well, he's new at the governor thing... the people of Ohio would probably feel a bit betrayed... We really like him, and we really need him here...

If he had served out a full term as governor that would be different, but he's only been there a couple of years, and now he will bail?

That's why I think that Brown said he's not interested.  He's also been a senator for only 2 years.

by LordMike 2008-05-13 10:24AM | 0 recs
Not going to happen.

The president and vice president must have a consistent message in order to campaign as a strengthened ticket. When the VP has spent the last several months attempting to undermine the credibility of the president, she doesn't get the VP slot as a consolation/appeasement prize. This isn't JFK/Johnson. It's going to be Obama/ABC. Sorry, Clinton supporters, but you can't have it both ways.

by Firewall 2008-05-13 09:34AM | 0 recs
Re: Not going to happen.

'Yepper' It's the "salted earth mentality".

As I said up stream.

With this mindset you get.

With Sen. Obama as Pres. no place for Sen. Clinton supporters in an Obama administration.

With Sen. Clinton as Pres. there is a place for Sen. Obama supporters in a Clinton administration.

"Ironical" ain't it. Sen. Obama is for inclusive except if you're a Sen. Clinton supporter. Then yer outta luck?

Sheesh folks. Way to make folks wanna' take this to the floor of the convention. Yikes.

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-13 01:41PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

The whole reason I back Obama is because I feel the Clintons bring too much drama into politics. They are such a distraction. Add in their long list of enemies, their strong ties to lobbyists, and their disdain for Obama, and you have the polar opposite of the entire point of an Obama Presidency.

Hagel, Sebelius, Webb, Richardson in that order. They all are red-state, down to earth, and have the right blend of change and experience.

Hillary as VP would be a disaster. Obama would instantly lose credibility, and power.

Once Obama wins the nomination the attention will shift solely to him and slowly but surely Hillary will fade from the spotlight. Then he should do photo-ops with VP contenders and start the process.

by True Centrist 2008-05-13 09:34AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

No, has to be a very high profile Hillary supporter.  Rendell or Easley is my guess.

by jarhead5536 2008-05-13 09:49AM | 0 recs
I say Strickland

demographics is the reason why.

by Student Guy 2008-05-13 10:03AM | 0 recs
Re: I say Strickland

Strickland might get Ohio, but not sure how well he would do outside of Ohio.  No military experience and I am not sure he is pro-choice.  He is Religious, he was even a minister.   But he seems  a little too religious for Democrats.  He was Hillary's bobblehead on NAFTA, and seems a little too much like one of the "old boys".

by Tumult 2008-05-13 10:17AM | 0 recs
obama is pretty religious too...


by RisingTide 2008-05-13 10:55AM | 0 recs
Re: obama is pretty religious too...

Lets just say I think he is closer to Huckabee religious than Obama religious.

by Tumult 2008-05-13 10:59AM | 0 recs
I'd vote for Clark

not that i suspect it will happen.

by RisingTide 2008-05-13 10:56AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

But the question is whether in fact "the true utility of a VP choice" is to balance or to reinforce?  

Think about the last 3 Dem tickets:
1. Clinton-Gore (the "Double Bubba" tix) - reinforcing, not balancing.
2 . Gore-Lierberman - Balancing, not reinforcing (ok, I'm not even sure that was balancing but it certainly wasn't reinforcing)
3. Kerry - Edwards - balancing, not reinforcing.

Now which was more successful?

by SKI 2008-05-13 09:34AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

The ticket where the Presidential nominee called Republicans stupid but not other Democrats.

Just a guess.

"It's the econmony stupid" wasn't leveled at other Democrats but at the Republicans.

But hey if you want to call Sen. Clinton's supporters stupid.

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-13 01:48PM | 0 recs
Absent any evidence

that this ticket polls better against McCain than other potential choices, there is no chance for Clinton to be on the ticket.

by fladem 2008-05-13 09:35AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

There are many better ways of "shoring up Obama's demographic weaknesses" than picking one of the most divisive families (yes, Bill comes with the package) in modern politics.  A Clinton on the ticket is about the only thing you could do to increase Republican turnout in November, which is not exactly what we're aiming for, is it?

As for Clinton's "extremely passionate army of supporters"
 a) there aren't as many of them as there are of Obama's and his army grows while hers shrinks;
 b) the passionate ones are not going to vote for McSame in November anyhow

by Southjaw 2008-05-13 09:35AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

The size of the "armies" may be up for dispute, but Hillary's demographic contigent votes - a lot.  Turnout is everything in November.

by jarhead5536 2008-05-13 09:51AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

Only in cherry-pick-your-metrics-Clinton-dead-en der Fantasyland is any of this in dispute or (in the case of the VP slot) up for discussion.

by Southjaw 2008-05-13 10:04AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

She has been making the arguement that her Demographic won't vote for Obama, not that she is the more appealing candidate to them.

And her "experience" and appeal to the over 60 crowd is questionable, when you are going against the more experience, and older war hero.

Aside from Women,  are we sure that any of the Demographic groups she has been claiming are solidly hers against McCain?  Or that she would add that strength when she is second on the ticket.

by Tumult 2008-05-13 10:24AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

Thank you Todd. You are correct in your analysis.

I would vote for Obama if Clinton is the VP.

If he thinks he can win the women's vote by sticking a different woman on then that is as stupid as Hillary thinking she could win AA supporters by putting Patrick Deval in as her VP.

Just because Sebelius is a woman, does not mean I would support the ticket.

My passion is for Hillary.

He needs to pick Hillary as the VP.

by nikkid 2008-05-13 09:37AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

I would hope that your passion is for putting a Democrat in the White House.

I love Hillary and if she winds up as Veep that is fine with me; but I also think there are better jobs for her and better people for this particular job.

by JDF 2008-05-13 11:32AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket

The idea is just plain creepy.

by xdem 2008-05-13 09:38AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket

Why would this be "...creepy..."
by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-13 01:59PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket

I don't know why. It just IS.

by xdem 2008-05-13 03:49PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket

Lol fair enough.

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-13 04:13PM | 0 recs
No FREAKIN' way!

Hillary burned THAT bridge with her way below the belt, yeah, gutter actually, campaign tactics.  

She brings absolutely nothing to the ticket except for the rightwingers coming out in droves to vote for McBush.

by JulieinVT 2008-05-13 09:38AM | 0 recs
Re: No FREAKIN' way!

Obviously, she brings 16+ million (and growing) enthusiastic supporters with her...

by BklynDem 2008-05-13 10:02AM | 0 recs
Re: No FREAKIN' way!

Sorry, I disagree.  Most of those 16 million will vote for Obama regardless.  As Billy boy once said - "It's the economy, stupid."

I remember when Howard Dean got screwed, I swore up, down and sideways that I wouldn't pull the lever for Kerry.  I was THAT pissed.  Guess what...  I pulled the lever for Kerry.

by JulieinVT 2008-05-13 10:17AM | 0 recs
Re: No FREAKIN' way!

"Most" is the operative word, and in an electorate this divided, as we all know too well, every vote counts.  And they won't be working their asses off having bake sales or making calls, and they won't be writing checks.  No other potential VP candidate has a bloc like she she does. You can cut off your nose to spite your face, but it ain't going to help you win.  Luckily, the decision will be left up to his campaign, and not his vitriolic supporters, who btw, have never seemed to embody the new politics their candidate is always talking about.

by BklynDem 2008-05-13 12:13PM | 0 recs
Re: No FREAKIN' way!
Oh spare me, I'm so goddamned sick to death of the sore loser mentality of the Hillary fans. I wasn't even an Obama supporter - hell, I was all about Bill Richardson. But I'm not so foolish as to deny what is a foregone conclusion. And I will NEVER get how ANYONE could embrace Hillary with the crap she and Bill (who I USED to really love) pulled. They were all about the prize and not about all of US. Don't you see? *Sigh*
by JulieinVT 2008-05-13 01:22PM | 0 recs
Re: No FREAKIN' way!


In a Sen. Clinton presidency there is a place for the Obama supporter.

In a Sen. Obama presidency there IS NOT A PLACE for the Clinton supporter.

You know ducks. If she didn't have the support she wouldn't be still standing.

I don't think you're going to be forcing the Clinton supporters to vote for a candidate that just wants your vote and then tells you to go home.


That is the sound of a walk out on the floor of the convention by everyone else. Where is the inclusion. Where is the love.

From what I read here? There isn't any.

For anyone else but the Sen. Obama supporter.


Good to know.

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-13 01:57PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

I think the most powerful argument should basically be that Obama has the right to choose who he wants as his VP.  If he wants Clinton, so be it.  If not, also so be it.  The VP has the theoretical chance to be President, so I don't know why Obama shouldn't be able to choose what kind of possible president should succeed him should something happen to him.

There is no rule or whatever that says he has to choose Clinton.  In fact, technically speaking, he doesn't get to choose: the delegates at the convention do (if I'm not mistaken). But, I imagine most of them will defer to his decision, and the "will of the people" argument doesn't seem overwhelming to me for VP, since people don't vote for VP (and Gallup doesn't determine that either).

I think there are probably other negatives to an Obama/Clinton ticket that you're not pointing out here too, Todd.  For instance, the revelation that the GOP already has 1200 pages of oppo-research on Clinton... rather than just having to contend with whatever negatives Obama is going to have to contend with, now he'll have to contend with Clinton's negatives as well.  In fact, an argument could be made that if it's an Obama/Clinton ticket, suddenly the GOP strategy switches to running against Clinton again, with the added bonus of having tons of negative quotes about Obama from Clinton, plus all the negative Obama stuff that he'd already have to contend with.  I could definitely see the campaign devolving into a Clinton/McCain battle despite Obama being at the top of the ticket, which would probably be doubly-bad for Obama, since it would marginalize him.

I do agree with you, Todd, that this is something that Obama should think long and hard about... Clinton should as well.  I definitely wonder whether Clinton could actually help Obama more by endorsing and campaigning for Obama rather than joining him on the ticket.  I guess we'll see.

by leshrac55 2008-05-13 09:41AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

Spot on. That's exatcly what I said. too. It's basically his call and I will support his decision.

by MissVA 2008-05-13 09:51AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

It's amazing that people think that somehow Obama gets spared from all the distractions because he doesn't have a Clinton on the ticket.

IMHO, he gets the full brunt of the swift-boat assault, with or without her on the ticket.

I say, yes, let him choose, but he should put her on the ticket because (1) she would make a great president if he dies in office (2) she would make a great VP and partner in office (and would evolve to play that role) and (3) she's the best, most talented politician the Democrats have, even with her imperfections. No other VP candidate would be nearly as effective as her in helping him get elected in November.

by wolff109 2008-05-13 10:42AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People


There are clearly positives and negatives, and as I say in my original comment, I'm under no illusions that Obama gets spared from "distractions" if he doesn't have Clinton on the ticket.  I'm just saying that putting her on the ticket might multiply the distractions to a point where it's a substantial net-negative.

I realize it's nice to think that by just putting her on the ticket suddenly we can have the full-force of both of their constituencies out in November, but I don't think that's an automatic at all.  An Obama/Clinton ticket also brings out the possibility of motivating anti-Clinton partisans to vote for McCain just to keep Clinton away from the White House again.

In summary, while a lot of people seem to say that it's foolish for Obama to think that he'd automatically pick up Clinton's supporters if she's not on the ticket, it's probably equally foolish to think that putting her on the ticket would give him Clinton's supporters as well (or result in a net-negative in some other way). I don't know what the answer is, but I think it'd be good if Obama AND Clinton thought through this honestly.

by leshrac55 2008-05-13 11:09AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

Well spoken. But where I think our opinions diverge is the assumption that her presence on the ticket will be the source of incremental distractions. I simply don't see her negatives being the source of enduring stories.

I have a lot more confidence in her and Obama's ability to, on net, influence the media narrative sufficiently in such a manner that their strengths will be more on display than the exploitation of their negatives.

Second, McCain himself will be the source of may negatives, and the GOP will have to spend time building a case FOR McCain. They gain no ground by solely going negative against the Democrats.

Finally, the campaign trail will have its share of unknown events. I think Hillary's ability to adapt to the circumstances to be an overwhelming strength for Obama.

by wolff109 2008-05-13 12:05PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

"Second, McCain himself will be the source of may negatives, and the GOP will have to spend time building a case FOR McCain. They gain no ground by solely going negative against the Democrats."

I actually disagree with this bit here.  I think the 2004 election pretty much established that going negative works just fine.  Bush had pretty much nothing going for him.  The GOP just convinced America that Kerry was so bad that Bush was really their only option.

Given that McCain will basically have no new ideas from Bush, this will ultimately be their strategy again (as it pretty much would be even if they did have some "new ideas" to be honest).  Despite McCain's assurance for a "respectful" campaign, I actually expect the campaign to be relentlessly negative.  If the GOP can convince America that Obama and whoever his VP is are so horrible that they're completely unfit to be president, then people's only other option will be McCain.

As a note, I think the fundamentals of this election are pretty bad for the GOP anyway.  Whoever our nominee is and whoever their VP pick is, I think our chances of winning in November are pretty good.

by leshrac55 2008-05-13 02:20PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

It worked with JFK and LBJ because there was no YouTube back then to show LBJ undercutting JFK during the primary.

Put Clinton on the ticket and it will be video of her saying "Shame on you Barack Obama" and "He doesn't meet the CIC test but McCain does" all day everyday.

It just won't work in the new media era.

by recusancy 2008-05-13 09:42AM | 0 recs
Not gonna happen.

Let's look at the pros and cons of an Obama/Hillary ticket.

1 Reunites the party
2 Brings in women
3 Brings in some "working class" whites
4 Brings in Latinos
5 "In the trenches fighter" on the ticket
6 "Balances out his resume deficit"

1: The vast majority of the party will reunite with or without her, and as a Democrat she SHOULD be doing her best to get him elected regardless.
2, 3, 4: There are other white women or Latinos Obama could pick, if this is about the race/gender of his running mate.
5 and 6: She really isn't that experienced or "tough." She just has been able to paint herself that way running against Obama. Does anyone really think her 6 years in the Senate is going to look impressive next to McCain's 217-year record? Or that she'll be bragging about her sniper-fire experience running against an actual POW? There have got to be better possibilities than Clinton.

And now the cons:
1 There are still millions of conservatives who think Clinton is Satan incarnate. Probably tens or hundreds of thousands who think she literally murdered Vince Foster (I've seen the Republican mailers). If she's on the ticket, McCain won't even need to dog-whistle to his crazy base; they'll be out in full force.
2 She's "more of the same" in a campaign about change.
3 She's been hammering Obama for months. The last thing he needs is her in the spotlight for the rest of the campaign, trying to spin why she once thought he hadn't passed the CiC threshold or might be a Muslim or was an elitist or should have walked out of Wright's church.

by ZombieRoboNinja 2008-05-13 09:42AM | 0 recs
Re: Not gonna happen.

Your list of pros and cons perhaps gives reason to not support Clinton as the VP, but misses many of her strengths.

As among the most talented politicians on the Democratic bench, she brings an overwhelming strength to the ticket that far outpaces her so-called (and shop-worn) negatives.

She has proven over and over again since her election to the Senate in 2000 that she can (1) overcome negatives (2) attract a wide range of voters, even Republicans (3) she is strong in areas where Obama is weak.

This isn't the 90s. She's evolved since then, and so have her conservative detractors. The remaining anti-Clinton zealots ain't voting for Obama regardless of his running mate.

by wolff109 2008-05-13 10:37AM | 0 recs
Re: Not gonna happen.

My "pros" were just based off Todd's list. But as to her "talent"... well, the first, obvious reply is that if she's so talented she should've won this thing a long time ago, with her $100 million dollars, ex-President husband, 100 superdelegate jump-start, and tons of insider support.

The nicer answer is that her political talent won't be of much utility when she has to let Obama run the show. The two of them obviously have very different approaches to campaigning (and probably to governing), and Obama isn't going to start letting her call the shots after roundly defeating her in the primary.

As to your final point... true, the zealots won't be voting for Obama regardless, but a lot of them aren't over-enthused with McCain either, and might well stay home or vote third-party UNLESS the Republicans are able to get them extra fired-up. And the more work McCain and his supporters have to do to woo arch-conservatives, the crazier they look to centrists.

by ZombieRoboNinja 2008-05-13 10:57AM | 0 recs
Re: Not gonna happen.


I've been just supposing that if Sen. Obama wins that there is not place for Sen. Clinton's supporters in an Obama administration. Just supposing now.

And if Sen. Clinton wins there would be a place for Sen. Obama supporters in her administration.

Am I to understand that you've just dismissed the entirely of Sen. Clinton's supporters?

This is interesting.

If you do? You support my suposition.

I would just wonder if it would be to sit out the general election or a walk out on the floor of the Democratic convention.

Which do you think? :)

by 12 dogs and a blog 2008-05-13 02:25PM | 0 recs
This has the potential to burn Obama

I don't think HRC really wants the job or that Obama wants to give it to her.  Unfortunately, if all summer we end up hearing about this question of whether HRC will be VP and it keeps becoming more clear that many Clinton supporters want her on the ticket, it will become increasingly hard for Obama to pick somebody else.  If HRC doesnt want the job, I hope she takes herself out of contention early rather than letting that situation continue.

by Fuzzy Dunlop 2008-05-13 09:42AM | 0 recs
No opinion

I have no objective opinion on this matter.

But I beg this one question:

How the hell do we explain everything on youtube?

There are hundreds of POPULAR videos that point out her biggest negatives.

This is unlike the 2004 primary,  this is the first in my lifetime that one candidate attacked the other so vociferously.

Whether thats valid or not its a reality, and one that will not be erased unless all the users who posted those videos remove them.

Also what if the RNC uses these videos to eat away at HRC as a VP?

Im dying to know other's opinion on my outlook.

by GeorgeP922 2008-05-13 09:44AM | 0 recs
A better strategy

Would be for Obama and Clinton to agree in advance that he would make a public show of offering her the VP, and for her to gracefully decline.

That would assuage the feelings of her supporters, which is the only real reason to have her on the ticket given the negatives she brings to a GE.

by JJE 2008-05-13 09:45AM | 0 recs
I don't trust her

They would make the agreement, and then she would gracefully accept!

by Fairy Tale 2008-05-13 09:48AM | 0 recs
Re: A better strategy

Fraid not.  We can see through tokenism, and just an offer for the sake of a show isn't going to do it.  She has nothing to bring to the GE?  I guess that electoral map that has been on the front page is just for decoration.

by Scotch 2008-05-13 09:49AM | 0 recs
That electoral map

is for pumping up the dead-enders.  Her negatives vastly outweigh her positives in the GE.  You do realize that, unlike a Democratic Primary, in a general election half of the electorate consists of people who are not democrats and have no loyalty to the Clinton brand, don't you?

by JJE 2008-05-13 09:51AM | 0 recs
Re: That electoral map

Obama's negatives are already present in that he can't win the states he needs to  with his rev wright, no exerience, and arrogance toward working people. Up against McCains foriegn policy experience he's got nothing. Another one of Obamas negatives is that he is going to lose a whole shitload of Clinton supporters because of your kind of attitude.  His arrogance and that of his followers is not just something fouond a blog. You can bury your head in the sand and dump the polls any which way you want in your head but it doesn't change the map when it comes to who can win in the general, and who the loser is.

by Scotch 2008-05-13 11:47AM | 0 recs
boilerplate talking points

that everyone has heard a million times won't bridge the logical gap you have created in your extrapolation of primary results into general election results.

If you won't vote for Obama because of something people said on the internet, that says more about you than it does about him.

by JJE 2008-05-13 11:51AM | 0 recs
Re: boilerplate talking points

Notice I said it is not just something found on a blog, and yes the whole of my experience with your type of attitude over the past few months is enough to tip my vote.  

by Scotch 2008-05-13 11:57AM | 0 recs
"I'm not voting for him

because of some guy on the internet" is a deeply stupid sentiment.  Sorry, but it is.  I've been called all kinds of names by Clinton supporters but I'd still vote for her.  As the Clintons say, if you can't take the heat, then get out of politics.

This election is about the country, not your hurt feelings.

by JJE 2008-05-13 12:09PM | 0 recs

Napolitano, Napolitano, Napolitano.  Napolitano.

by lorax 2008-05-13 09:46AM | 0 recs
Re: Napolitano

No that it matters to me. But there are some who say she is a lesbian.

by MissVA 2008-05-13 09:54AM | 0 recs
They've been saying that about Clinton forever.

I can't count the number of times I've heard people suggest that Hillary Clinton is actually a lesbian, that she's in a marriage of convenience with Bill, etc. It's an old and stupid Republican talking point, on par with the Obama Muslim crap. Doesn't make me lose a lot of sleep.

by ZombieRoboNinja 2008-05-13 11:01AM | 0 recs
Re: Napolitano

People can say whatever they want.  If McCain decides to try to make an issue of that, it will backfier on him.

by lorax 2008-05-13 12:47PM | 0 recs
Terrible Idea

Let him (or her) pick a VP they can work with.  There's a huge group of great Democrats out there.  I don't the O/C arrangement would be particularly satisfying to either and I do not believe the election will be won or lost on that.  Each brings a group to the table that loves them but also a group that loathes them.  I think less of a lightning rod for VP.

by mady 2008-05-13 09:48AM | 0 recs
What about tapping her to name his VP?

Couldn't Obama tap Senator Clinton to chair his VP search committee?

That way, he's showing her respect by letting her place a loyalist as number two on the ticket, and if she wants to pick herself, there's precedent for that.

by sco 2008-05-13 09:48AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

Three major weaknesses in your logic, Todd:

1) The poll was of Democrats & Democratic-leaning independents.  The general election includes all other independents and Republicans.  I'd like to see a poll of all Americans (and yes, I know, why listen to most Republicans -- it's the 20% that might stay home or swing Democratic that I'm after).
To win the election, the Democratic candidate will win some votes outside of the poll sample, and I suspect Sen. Clinton not be attractive to many of these voters.  Just a guess.

2) How many poll respondents could name more than one or two other Democrats that are viable for the job?  Sure, most could identify Gore, Kerry, or Kennedy, but not Richardson, Sibelius, Sherrod Brown, or Wesley Clark.  I suspect the poll mostly tests name recognition, but whoever's on the ticket will have more name recognition by November. (Ask John Edwards!)  Sen. Clinton's name recognition, while far greater than other potential running mates, does not necessarily translate into an electoral advantage, especially with her high unfavorables.

3) Elections are more local -- nationwide polls aren't necessarily indicative of electoral results.  We all know about Bush vs. Gore, and in 2004, Kerry was only a handful of votes in Ohio short of beating Bush, despite trailing by 2.4% in popular vote (far greater than Gore's 0.5% margin).

by Twin Planets 2008-05-13 09:48AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

Obama or Clinton is fine in 2008. But I would hope for someone even better in 2016. I dont want a President Hillary in 2016.

by Pravin 2008-05-13 09:49AM | 0 recs
Not a good fit

Putting Clinton on the ticket seems like a short-term solution but a long-term problem.  It certainly would help with Democratic unity, but putting Clinton on the ticket isn't the only way to pursue unity.  The problems are that 1) she muddles his message of change and getting away from Washington politics; 2) she would draw alot of attention from the nominee; 3) there would be two vice presidents when you count Bill.

I think better ways to unify the Party would be to have Obama choose a Clinton supporter (like Strickland) for VP who would go better with his message and/or have Clinton spearhead the health care reform package.

by CA Pol Junkie 2008-05-13 09:50AM | 0 recs
Re: Not a good fit

Solid points. But I disagree.

1) she muddles his message of change and getting away from Washington politics;

I think this is only partially true. The "change" people want is not based on the fact that Hillary is considered an insider. They want an end to a PROCESS of how business is done. All Hillary need do is put her political talent to work articulating Barack's message of changing how we do business, and voila, she's part of the change (and would certainly appear to be so in comparison to McCain).

2) she would draw alot of attention from the nominee;

It's a potential issue, but it can easily be rectified by a clear set of guidelines for her to follow, as all VP candidates do. I disagree strongly with the assumption that she's incapable of playing the role of VP well. She would have a huge incentive to do so, and wouldn't risk being perceived as someone who undermined the ticket.

3) there would be two vice presidents when you count Bill.

This is NOT a negative. With Hillary as VP, Bill Clinton could more easily assume the informal and distant role of senior counselor to the president, as so many wise men in American politics have done.

Believe me, the job of president is fairly tough, and we as a country are far better off with a seasoned advisor a (long distance) phone call away.

by wolff109 2008-05-13 10:29AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

Obama picking a conservative republican like Hagel would be the last straw.

by Scotch 2008-05-13 09:52AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People
He could leave the party and declare himself independent.
HE could be a very good choice.
by MissVA 2008-05-13 09:55AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

Hagel by himself wouldn't be my choice for anything.

But it would be an interesting and daring strategic choice.

Hagel is seriously anti-Iraq war, which is to his credit.  For a 'conservative republican' he often sounds like a centrist Democrat.  

Obama reaching across the aisle in this case would signal to a lot of independents and undecideds that he is serious about going against the grain of partisanship to make decisions, when appropriate.  

It would pull a Republican out of the Senate (who would replace him?).  Would Hagel be beholden to Obama's politics when casting tie-breaking votes?

I'm sure there are dems like the OP of this thread who would be insulted by the choice of "the enemy."  

I like it in principal better than in reality.  

Besides, Hagel would probably take on the same attitude McCain had when it was suggested that perhaps he could be Kerry's running mate.  ("Are you kidding?  Run alongside a Democrat?")

Kerry-McCain might have won the GE against Bush, but McCain is a party loyalist to the bitter end.

by tastycakes 2008-05-13 10:00AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

I can't believe that people are so ready to give away a democratic administration to a republican.  A VP gets the position if something happens with the President, and we shouldn't be so anxious to hand the government back to the republicans no matter how faux nonpartisan it would make it look.

by Scotch 2008-05-13 10:10AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

Not Hagel I think. A bit too conservative in my book.

However Sen. Chafee or Gov. Whitman are interesting choices.

Both are moderate enough to be to the left of the Blue Dog Dems on many issues.

Chafee has the added bonus of voting against the war as well.

by ces 2008-05-13 11:46AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

Hagel is anti war and that is about the only "Democratic" value he stands for.  He is very conservative and stands for nothing else real democrats stand for.  The VP replaces the president in a crisis.  Would you like to have him as president to continue on with A repulican administration?  People should do their homework and a little research before endorsing something disasterous and backward that could affect our future in a negative way.

by Scotch 2008-05-13 10:07AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

He would be a great choice as Secretary of Defense... We could get out of Iraq in a week with him there, but I do not want another republican a heartbeat away from the presidency.

by LordMike 2008-05-13 10:39AM | 0 recs
The people are always right.

They were right about George Bush, they were right when the majority of them favored military action in Iraq, they must be right here too.

In what world does this work?  He has been running on a message of changing Washington Politics, and he should take as a pick the Ultimate Washington Politician?   He talks about getting away from the Corporate and Special intrests  and he should pick someone whos family is in bed with them?  The Republicans wouldn't even need to Swiftboat him, they could just attack the ticket and claim he abandoned his entire message by having her as his number 2.  And she said she had major problems playing second fiddle for Bill Clinton who she loved, why would we think she is capable of doing it for Obama.  And how does she balance out his weaknesses, by all the false things she has managed to define herself as?  At least Hagel, which is another terrible idea, is to some extent message consistent.  Sebelius, is consistent with his message also.

The entire notion that Clinton will be good on a ticket is a complete fantasy.  Your just opening yourself up for additional lines of attack, and burdening yourself with two people who are not team players, and who would drag the ticket down.
They might have basicly the same policies, but they are polar opposites on everything else, and not in a positive way that would complement.

by Tumult 2008-05-13 09:54AM | 0 recs
not opposed to it .. but it's not likely, either

I'm a big supporter of Obama, and I will confess that the idea of Hillary on the ticket does not trouble me.

There is value in having huge numbers of Democrats who have voted in these primaries ALL feeling like their top choice is going to be a major player in the new government.  It would mark a real, serious effort to heal any division that has come about as a result of the campaigns.

But, given a lot of the crap that Hillary's campaign has floated to try and tear down Obama, I'm not sure Obama will offer it.  

To be honest, I'd be less surprised at him choosing Hagel!  (I don't think that's likely, either).  

Ultimately, he has earned the right (well, he has nearly earned the right..) to pick whomever his team feels would be best.  Given the very positive light I hold his campaign decision-making, I feel confident we will end up with a VP candidate who will reflect Obama's ideals and have the potential to expand his demographic base.

Hillary might bring some percentage of her supporters back into the fold right away, but it also might galvanize some independents or Republicans against her.  It would be a calculated risk.  I'd personally rather take the chance that her supporters will come around to Obama once the very clear differences between him and McCain have the chance to be highlighted.

by tastycakes 2008-05-13 09:56AM | 0 recs
I would be okay with Unity tick, or not.

I think Hillary should have some large role though, as a supporter it will help me be more inclined to support Obama, who I'm still just not excited about (22 year old guy here, go figure)

LETS WIN BIG IN WV! Go out with a BANG

by rigsoHC 2008-05-13 09:57AM | 0 recs
I love that last line!

and agree with it wholeheartedly!

(and I'm an obama supporter ;-)

by RisingTide 2008-05-13 11:09AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

I am not so sure that Clinton on the ticket with Obama makes sense with Obama at the top of the ticket.  There are many negatives there that could cause Obama trouble in the fall, and the questions raised by Clinton about Obama will come back to bite the unity ticket in the bum (the hypocracy argument).

However, Obama will need Clinton's strong support and Clinton, and the country might be better served with her remaining in the senate, perhaps as Majority Leader.

This brings be to the question of who would be best, and I think that some sort of compromise might be called for.  

One very strong candidate for the position is Gov. Strictland from Ohio.

He is a strong Clinton backer who would appeal to many clinton supporters.  His inclusion would be similar to a stong Clinton endorsement.  Clinton would be bale to affect legislation (particularly in healthcare) in a major way with her direct connection to the whitehouse under this sort of plan.

Furthermore Obama would not have the negatives attached from the apparant hypocracy of picking Clinton, and be in a much better position to win the presidency.

Finally Gov. Strickland could help put Ohio in the Obama column come november.  This is a key to the argument since any help on individual swing states would be very helpful (an almost a prerequisite) for any candidate considered for the VP spot.

Certainly there are other people that might fit this bill (Gov. Rendell comes to mind).

What do you think?

by Why Not 2008-05-13 09:58AM | 0 recs
"black/brown ticket"

Truly disgusting, Todd.

by lojasmo 2008-05-13 09:58AM | 0 recs
Does Hillary really want to be Obama's VP?

I doubt it.  

by puma 2008-05-13 09:59AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

It puzzles me to hear people automatically dismiss the idea of Clinton as VP.

Why would it puzzle anyone that people who frequent a blog started by someone who wrote a book on overthrowing the Democratic Establishment don't want the embodiment of that establishment on Obama's ticket?

by Kobi 2008-05-13 10:02AM | 0 recs
Think ahead people

Not thinking ahead is how HRC lost the delegate race. Please start thinking ahead now.

Listen - I am passionately for Obama for President, but I would prefer a ticket of Hillary/Anybody to the ABSOLUTE FRIKKIN TRAINWRECK of Obama/Clinton.

Todd Beeton: Can't you see how insane this would be?  Every single day on the campaign trail would yield media debacles that would make us yearn wistfully for the Wright and Tuzla days.

Think ahead, people, think ahead. Obama/Clinton is our worst nightmare.

by obsessed 2008-05-13 10:04AM | 0 recs
Re: Think ahead people

If Democrats did as you said, and thought about it, I think they would come to a very different conclusion.

I have thought about it. I think it's a great ticket, and believe the depth of reaction by Obama supporters against it is simply short-sighted and too affected by the primary battle rather than by a thoughtful analysis.

by wolff109 2008-05-13 10:18AM | 0 recs
Re: Think ahead people

Debate questions from Charlie Gibson & Co.:

1) Sen. Clinton - you called your running mate an empty suit whose only qualification for the presidency is a speech he gave 4 years ago. Do you now disavow that? Were you smoking crack or what?

2) Sen. Obama - your running mate said you've failed to pass the threshold to be commander in chief, but that your opponent, Sen. McCain has. How would you address that criticism?

3) Sen. McCain - your two opponents said this, this, this, and that, about each other. Would you like to take this opportunity to beat the crap out them about it?

by obsessed 2008-05-13 10:45AM | 0 recs
Re: Think ahead people

Honestly, those questions don't scare me. The are distractions, and I have confidence in Obama's and Clinton's ability to overcome those types of questions. I also have faith that, especially in this election, the voters won't so easily be swayed by BS like that. They want substance. This isn't 2000 when nothing seemed to be at stake (for the electorate). This year, they know what's up.

by wolff109 2008-05-13 12:10PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

I think that Hillary blew the chance to be Obama's VP many, many times already.  Not going to happen.  Thank goodness!

by Spanky 2008-05-13 10:05AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

I agree with Dem strategist Steve McMahon who said on Hardball yesterday that national security experience is going to be much too important to Obama's choice of VP for Sebelius to be seriously considered.

And what is Hillary's foreign policy experience?

by Kobi 2008-05-13 10:08AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

You Obama people just can't help yourselves, can you?

Hillary's foreign policy experience is head and shoulders above that of Obama, and that of most people in America today.

She has travelled to over 80 countries and is well known everywhere outside the US as an effective, well-connected, powerful figure in Washington.

Obama WISHES he could find someone with half the  secret Email addresses, and private cell numbers that Hillary and Bill have, from Israel to Russia to China to Japan to Dubai to you name it.

I am beginning to understand Obama people are just abysmally stupid, that's all.  I have never seen a less deserving candidate, who has benefitted first from the smear and character assassination of the right-wing for 15 years on Hillary, and then from the same job done on her by the media the last six months.

On Tuszla:  Could you answer for me why every soldier in that smear clip was wearing full battle gear and a helmet?


by dembluestates 2008-05-13 10:20AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

They are wearing full battle gear because they are soldiers.  They don't have "business casual."

by belicheat 2008-05-13 10:45AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

Shows what you know.

FULL BATTLE GEAR means Kevlar helmet with chinstrap fastened, flak or armored plate jackets, full weapons, and ammo.  That is what the soldiers who escorted Hillary were wearing, because that's what their unit commanders ordered.

You are not allowed out in a front-line deployment unless you're in full front-line combat gear. Which is exactly where Hilary's USO troupe landed.

There was a report of snipers in the hills around the landing area around the time she landed.  That is another reason why the soldiers were in full combat gear.  Instead of praising her for her courage and dedication to the troops, Obama people have been content to pile on and make legitimate the media lynching she suffered on every news and cable outlet.

And then they post the Tuszla picture, like the guy above, as if that was "proof" of something...

by dembluestates 2008-05-13 12:44PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

You really do believe anything Hillary says don't you?  In that case, I have a friend in Nigeria that has recently come into a lot of money.  He will give you $10,000 in exchange for helping him get it out of the country.  All you need to do is write him a check to help him get the process started.

by belicheat 2008-05-14 06:13AM | 0 recs
She has travelled to over 80 countries

Obama has LIVED in other countries. And he wasn't in a protective bubble either.

Your personal insults deserve a TR, but I don't go in for that sort of thing.

by Nomo Clintons 2008-05-13 11:07AM | 0 recs
Re: She has travelled to over 80 countries

Obama LIVED in other countries as a child.

I don't go in for that sort of "logic", either, "NoMo".

by dembluestates 2008-05-13 12:59PM | 0 recs
Re: She has travelled to over 80 countries

Voters obviously didn't buy the logic that Hill's junkets as First Lady constitute "foreign policy experience."

by Nomo Clintons 2008-05-13 05:36PM | 0 recs
Re: She has travelled to over 80 countries

Voters obviously did, tonight.

Obama has never been to, and if Hillary wins the nomination, probably will never get to visit the places she's been to and has friends and supporters in.

by dembluestates 2008-05-13 06:12PM | 0 recs
Voters obviously did, tonight.

Put down the magnifying glass and it's not so big.

by Nomo Clintons 2008-05-13 06:45PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

Obama is the most divisive Dem I've ever seen and the most destructive to the party. He'd be a disaster in November. With Hillary at the top of the ticket, we could win the WH and she could do it nicely without him, thank you.

If Obama picks Hillary for the VP slot, and she accepts, it'd present a dilemma for her supporters, half of whom can't tolerate him.

The only chance Obama has of winning in the fall is with Hillary's help. He's a horrible candidate and would make a terrible president. The comments he made about Pakistan and Israel are quite troubling. He's wholly unqualified and an untrustworthy prevaricator.

I hope Hillary will be our candidate but if not, that she will refuse to be his VP.

by Nobama 2008-05-13 10:10AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

Divisive? I just don't see it. Who has he divided? You're living in an alternate universe, or perhaps you're using the wrong word to describe your ill feelings toward Obama.

Obama's only sin has been to run for president against Hillary. He does not use wedge issues, he does not use personal attacks, and he comports himself with a modicum of integrity. How is he possibly divisive?

I'm sure most reasonable observers would agree with this assessment. You don't have to like him, you don't have to support him. But as Sen. Moynihan used to say, while everyone is entitled to their own opinion, no one is entitled to their own facts.

by wolff109 2008-05-13 10:15AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

He's divided the entire country, but especially the Democratic Party.

If you're a Democrat, you're either a passionate Hillary supporter or a passionate Obama supporter.  And there's equal numbers of both.

by dembluestates 2008-05-13 10:23AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

Those aren't mutually exclusive things.

by Jordache 2008-05-13 10:53AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

You wanna see divided? 1980 - That was divided. How about the GOP in 1992 and 1964?

I disagree that any candidate has divided anyone. I like both candidates, and know of many who feel the same.

We're not divided, we simply had to make a selection from among two great choices. It's natural that each side would have passionate supporters. But just wait until the GE. As soon as the McCain ads start rolling, as soon as we remmber why we're al in this to begin with, we'll be united.

by wolff109 2008-05-13 12:22PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

How was the newsmax forums today?

by MissVA 2008-05-13 10:17AM | 0 recs
Now, that would be truly historical

Count me among the Obama supporters who want to see Hillary on the ticket.

(1) Her political skill overcomes her negatives. She ultimately helps him win in the general. No other potential candidate brings her skills and tenacity.

(2) He should pick the one who will best govern. What other Democrat is primed, vetted, and ready for the campaign trail and the White House?

(3) As a seasoned veteran, Hillary would make a great partner. She will evolve into a great VP. Period.

Regarding such issues as Bill Clinton, whether or not Obama can trust Hillary, whether or not she will have her own agenda...etc....etc.

Distractions, all. These issues remain regardless of who Obama picks, and they resolve themselves just as easily of he picks Hillary.

I know people feel that selecting her would violate some brand Obama represents -- this notion of change -- and I know there is a desire to remain pure to that image, but we need to be practical and evolve with events. We need to understand that Obama's promise as a leader would not be diminished and would instead be enhanced by a woman of her stature as his partner.

by wolff109 2008-05-13 10:11AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

SOrry cant do it.....I cannot voet for HIllary on the ticket......and neither will other fed up republicans....they will go back to McCain or go home....hell I might even vote for Bob Barr on the Libertarian ticket......

by adb67 2008-05-13 10:17AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

Just because she has strengths doesn't make that his weakness. I have never heard people talk about her weakness with educated whites.  The idea that women, Latinos, and non-College whites will not vote for Barack just because they preferred Hillary does not hold water.  

Hillary is the one who made herself unavailable for the VP with her statements about Barack.  There is the disconnect with the message which goes way beyond just change vs the establishment.  As VP she undercuts his central theme and makes him just a politician. Any reasonable Hillary supporter should see that.

by Piuma 2008-05-13 10:18AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

A few reasons I don't think this will happen, and I have been a Clinton supporter who only recently officially switched to Obama

-She probably doesn't want it. This is the biggest issue and a deal breaker in itself if it's true. She could be Senate Majority or Governor of New York someday, or run again in 2012 if Obama were to lose. I don't see her wanting to be Obama's number 2.

-Too much change. I agree it's near impossible for Richardson to be VP with a Black-Brown ticket, but I also think we should be concerned about pushing a Black-Woman ticket as well. I think this issue is something that we could get past, but I think politics says it will be a white male VP.

-She will overshadow him. I think there's a danger in running a campaing where in any day your running mate could overshadow you in the news cycle. And if elected as President any day, or week, or month, more attension might be paid to your VP that you, the President of the United States. Not a super healthy way to run a country.

I don't think Clinton's bagage, or the differing  message, or some of the things Clinton has said about Obama, are as big of issues. They probably could be overcome. But the reasons above are probably why it's a less than 10% chance it actually happens.

PS: Ff Hagel is VP I will not vote Democratic in 2008. Sorry a Republican or former Republican that just recently changed parties is a deal breaker. I said the same thing about Kerry if McCain was his VP in 2004. I have voted striaght Democrat in every election since 2002, but I will not vote for Obama-Hagel. Obama-Bloomberg would be tough, but at least that I could eventualy support.

by Christopher Lib 2008-05-13 10:25AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

Which is to say that the Democrats on the list all have something that makes them problematic.

...according to the panel on "Hardball".

Wow, if the panel on "Hardball" implies it, it must be true.

by KMA 2008-05-13 10:27AM | 0 recs
Obama/Clinton Ticket ...no thanks

Too much bad stuff has been said and written.

Too many lobbiests.

Too many Bubbas.

Too much "old style politics"

Too many debts, some finanical, some not.

by Silence Do Good 2008-05-13 10:28AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

What's the hurry?  McCain is in more need of picking his VP than we are...  Let him pick first, then counter with our own...

I don't know if having Hillary on the ticket is such a great idea...  While Kennedy/Johnson and Reagan/Bush worked out well, Kerry/Edwards worked out horribly.  They hated each other, and Edwards being on the ticket did not help Kerry pick up any states.  Kerry should have picked Gephardt.  We could have won Iowa at least with him on the ticket (as much as I didn't like Gephardt at all) and maybe gotten enough votes in Ohio to get over the top.

There are certainly pros and cons to having Hillary on the ticket.  Here's one big con... my wingnut friend has predicted a joint ticket since 2007.  Fulfilling wingnut predictions just doesn't seem like a good thing to me.

by LordMike 2008-05-13 10:29AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

I'd like to add that Kerry was muscled into picking  Edwards as his VP... Kerry wanted Gephardt.  In retrospect, that would have been a much better choice.

The candidate should really pick for himself who is the best person for the campaign... He should not be pressured into making popular, but politically troublesome, choices.

I don't know if Hillary is a good or troublesome choice for VP... That's up to the Obama campaign to decide.  I do know that they shouldn't be pressured into the decision, 'cos we might have a replay of 2004.

by LordMike 2008-05-13 10:32AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

Ted Strickland is gaining and gaining.

He as a member of Congress representing Ohio's 6th Congressional District, Strickland voted against authorization of the war in Iraq (reinforcing Obama, and hurting McCain, on that theme).


by MissVA 2008-05-13 10:32AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

We need him here in Ohio... seriously... I would feel betrayed if he left after 2 years as governor.. especially since his replacement, Lee Fischer, is a weasel who is not well liked and who can't get re-elected and would hurt the party here in the future.

by LordMike 2008-05-13 10:34AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

There's another problem with Ted.... He has only a 30% NARAL rating...  I don't see how that would win over disaffected Hillary supporters (although it might help in the general--evangelicals really like Strickland... he's an ordained minister)

by LordMike 2008-05-13 10:35AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

Disqualifying Sibelius on the basis of her lackluster State of the Union speech seems premature.  Bill Clinton gave one of the worst speeches I've ever seen when he opened the Democratic convention in '88.  

If Obama gets the nod, he shouldn't make his VP choice until late August.  It's just too early to say whether a Clinton pick would be wise or foolish.

Because, let's face it, the issue would turn upon how she comported herself in the job and what those who supported her would do.  If she committed herself to being a loyal soldier in the campaign (and later an Obama administration), this could be both politically smart and help him a lot over the long run.

If, however, Clinton's supporters still have some sense that she should be the nominee, and she realizes she can tap into that and undermine his campaign/administration in prep for some later run, this would be a huge mistake for everyone.

And three months is probably enough time to make some determination about this.

by IncognitoErgoSum 2008-05-13 10:32AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People
One of the mistakes you are making is buying the frame that DC experience means you are ready on the national security front.
Picking someone for that very reason would undermine the rationale of Obama's candidacy which is that judgement is more important than experience on those issues. Picking Clark or Zinni or Webb would UNDERLINE his own lack of DC experience.
Sebelius is much better than her State of the Union address and plays what Gore was to Clinton. She reinforces his message.
And may I add that it is also a subtle way to put in the conversation his own white mother from KS.
She has a little bit of clout in OHIO (her father was governor there), is very talented and is absolutely baggage free which is more than we can say for the other candidates.
by Benjaminomeara 2008-05-13 10:33AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People
And by the way what impressed people about Sebelius is not that she got reelected so beautifully in a deep red state or that she converted a lot of Republicans to the Democratic party.
It is that she did all that while governing as a progressive. She vetoed coal plant and insisted on a trans-inclusive anti-discrimination law for instance. We could not even pass it in Washington !
by Benjaminomeara 2008-05-13 10:35AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

"One of the mistakes you are making is buying the frame that DC experience means you are ready on the national security front."

But the mistake you're making is conflating what you think about this issue and what the American people are thinking.

Putting aside all the racial crap for the moment, the nexus of inexperience and foreign policy is Obama's biggest weakness against McCain.  Its clear in the most recent Pew data.  You only want to reinforce aspects of your candidacy that give you an advantage, and Obama's combination of judgement and inexperience is not an advantage among the national electorate.

by Fuzzy Dunlop 2008-05-13 11:01AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People
I think the campaign made clear that the American people does not feel that way.
Obama wants to move past the Republican framing and take that risk. It worked very well against "experienced" HRC - so much that she had to move to an economic populist message that worked much better but too late - and it will work against McCain who seems to still believe we are in the 80s
by Benjaminomeara 2008-05-13 11:49AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

The campaign so far has been in the democratic primary, fighting for a group of voters that slants way toward the "judgment" side of the experience/judgment equation.  The general election is a different beast, and all the survey evidence suggests that the judgment/experience combo is a liability against McCain.  I wish it weren't so, but it is.  McCain easily beats Obama in terms of who voters trust more with national security issues.  In a year in which Dems have all the advantages, its the GOP's one way to win (other than racial stuff).  

Reinforcing liabilities is a bad idea. Especially when its one of your only liabilities in an otherwise great electoral landscape.

by Fuzzy Dunlop 2008-05-13 12:56PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

Boring.  Boringboringboring.

by BklynDem 2008-05-13 12:14PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

Obama has charisma for two. Since when do we need exciting VPs ? Isnt it the rule that they need to be slightly dull so that not outshine the Presidential candidate ?

by Benjaminomeara 2008-05-13 12:31PM | 0 recs
Who else would they pick?

The poll was formed in a open-ended question.
And the top two choices? Clinton and.. Edwards?
Who chooses Edwards as a VP for Obama? People who know only the politians that were/are also in the race :)

Conduct this poll later if there is maybe a shortlist available from which the one can pick.

I mean who would have thought, not many people said Sebeli-who?!?

by standd 2008-05-13 10:35AM | 0 recs
Re: Who else would they pick?
None of the people on McCain's shortlist are well-known either.
Portman, Pawlenty, Sanford ...
Point made. A VP pick is a good moment because discovering them gets a lot of good press
by Benjaminomeara 2008-05-13 10:39AM | 0 recs
Re: Who else would they pick?

I've noticed that's actually more of a Republican phenomenon - they tend to pick "Vice-President WHO????", while Democrats take Presidential also-rans.

It's a lesson we should learn from them - either pick a VP who reinforces you, or pick one that runs no risk distracting people from the top.  Hillary Clinton, with her own base of power and her own people and her own networks and her own gossip mills and disgruntled former campaign staff and people who will be loyal to her above and beyond their loyalty to the ticket....

It's just a disaster.

by Jordache 2008-05-13 11:08AM | 0 recs
Edwards woudln't be a terrible choice


pity that.

by RisingTide 2008-05-13 11:17AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

I've come to dislike speculating on VPs until one of the two parties has conceded. So, instead I'll phrase this generically.

I don't think either remaining candidate is really comfortable with the other as the VP. So what about asking the candidate who concedes to lead the search/vetting process for the VP? Of course when Cheney did it he picked himself, but I don't see that happening in our case.

by patooker 2008-05-13 10:37AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

One final thing. If you really want HRC to be on the ticket, feel free to argue for it.
But the more Obama is pressured publicly to do it, the less likely it is to happen.
A future President needs to assert his authority and if he does choose her, it will be only because he wants it.
So the same way the calls for her to drop out harden her resolve and end up being counterproductive, the more Obama is pushed to pick her as VP, the less i believe he will be likely to yield.

Just an advice

by Benjaminomeara 2008-05-13 10:38AM | 0 recs
100% pure presidential political sense

Obama is no saint, but he is a politician; he can clearly see the political obviousness of the Hillary support within the party, throughout the nation and on the ticket.

If he doesnt, then he's the same ol' "Mr Uniter not Divider" crap we've heard before...

by dcrolg 2008-05-13 10:40AM | 0 recs
The danger

is that Clinton's ability thus far to carry working class white voters is not a function of her popularity among the group, as much as it's a reluctance on their part to support Obama. Before the primaries no one would have ever argued that Hillary Clinton would be a champion of rural working class white voters in places like WV, KY. Am I wrong?    

by highgrade 2008-05-13 10:40AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket

I'm an Obama supporter, and I'm lukewarm in favor of that option right now.

Biggest positives:

1. Obviously, it would go a long ways toward uniting the Party.

2. It's interesting that Obama and Clinton do much better in different states against McCain. If Hillary can deliver her strong demographics as part of a joint ticket without cutting into Obama's strength, this election would be over. That would be Virginia, Colorado, the Pacific Northwest and the Upper Midwest (Obama), along with West Virginia, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Florida, New Mexico, Nevada (Clinton). That's on top of the Kerry states. Wow!

3. Even more historic than just the first AA Prez, but also the first woman VP.

4. The Clinton Machine in full gear behind the ticket can not be discounted.

But negatives:

1. Dilution of Obama's message about new politics, new faces, and the Iraq War.

2. Hillary may seem like a hypocrite after some of the stuff that she's said.

If there was an obvious better choice, I'd be in favor of that. But I don't know of one, personally. All of the other people mentioned so far have major downsides. What about Xavier Beccerra for a "left field" option?

by dmc2 2008-05-13 10:42AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

Give it up.  Obama will gain nothing from having Clinton on the ticket, short of a fired up right-wing base that otherwise would have stayed home or even voted for Obama.  It is time for Clinton to pay the piper for her war vote.  It was no sweat off her back to vote for the death of hundreds of thousands of people in order to help her with her presidential campaign.  Rot in Hell, Clinton.  

by steve expat 2008-05-13 10:44AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

Why in hell would Hillary Clinton want to be Vice President?  She could wind up being assigned to attend funerals for the dead pets of foreign leaders instead of being a power in the Senate.  Obama will never allow her to be Cheney.

How much "unity" would it signal for Obama to pick her as VP?  Would picking HRC as VP against his better judgment really motivate any HRC supporters to vote for Obama who would otherwise not vote for him?  Do the negatives of having her on the ticket -- enough alterity on the ticket already, her high negatives in places like Virginia, having to put up with Bill Clinton and all his baggage, having to deal with Whitewater, Monica and Wen Ho Lee, Clinton's pardons of Marc Rich and Weathermen in addition to dealing with Reverend Wright, Tony Rezko and Bill Ayers -- be outweighed by the number of HRC supporters who would switch from McCain to Obama simply because he threw her a meaningless bone?

How much will Obama enjoy having his running mate's words about Chicago slumlord Tony Rezko, Bill Ayers, Reverend Wright and "he-can't-get-whites-to-vote-for-him" read back to him by Tim Russert and in Republican television commercials?

by kaleidescope 2008-05-13 10:44AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

How can he possibly nominate a woman to be his VP who repeatedly called his unfit for the Presidency?  It makes absolutely no sense.  Not to mention the fact that Hillary and Bill would not be very good at playing second fiddle.

by belicheat 2008-05-13 10:50AM | 0 recs

Are you kidding me?  Why?  So Obama can walk around on egg shells hoping not to be undermined by she who is ready to lead on day 1?

She has been mudslinging and represents the politics of the past that Obama wants to move beyond.  This could be a disastrous union.

There are better choices for VP.  Gov. Strickland for one.

by jv 2008-05-13 10:53AM | 0 recs

Gov. Strickland for one

Note bobble head in background.


http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/02/23/c linton.mailings/index.html#cnnSTCVideo

by reggie44pride 2008-05-13 11:06AM | 0 recs

Ignorance is bliss.  Thanx for your post that reminds us of that.

You've never bothered to research Obama or, you don't give one damn about your country.

You bought into the stupid talking points made up for juveniles. One liners with nothing to back them up (except a bad and dangerous record).

Sad.  buy into the garbage you're fed, just like a bush sheep.. just keep buying into it.

Wall street did a good job, they took an empty suit like Obama with an empty slate and molded him into this black ken doll to feed to americans, and being the idiot country we are, people fell for the bullshit from this new messiah..they don't seem to care about his (real) record or credentials or motive.

sad sad

by TheAudacityofOblahblah 2008-05-13 12:24PM | 0 recs
John McCain's TV Ads

1) [Rev. Wright clip] ... announcer: "Guilt by association? Here's what Sen. Obama's own running made had to say about that." [HRC clip]

2) [clip of Hillary touting McCain's foreign policy and commander in chief threshold qualifications] ... [clip of Hillary dissing Obama]

3) [printed quote of Obama on bitter] audio clips of Hillary going on and on and on and on about it.

by obsessed 2008-05-13 10:53AM | 0 recs
Re: John McCain's TV Ads

We should not be scared of these distractions. In a typical election these non-issues might sway people.

But not this year.

Obama and Clinton possess the skills to answer to that level of muck by reminding people what the election is all about. There's too much at stake for so many people who this time want real answers. I have confidence that voters will be able to see through that sort of BS.

by wolff109 2008-05-13 12:15PM | 0 recs
Re: John McCain's TV Ads

But Hillary already reminded us, using her skills, repeatedly, on video, that she thinks the election is about these distractions.

If Obama drops out and Hillary runs, she can recover from all that, and if he runs with someone else, he can recover from all that, but together they're poison.

by obsessed 2008-05-13 12:56PM | 0 recs
Does nobody remember Dole/Kemp?

I thought that campaign put the nail in the coffin of the idea that you could have two Alpha Dogs on a Presidential ticket. It was famously discussed at the time, and I think its absolutely true. They were an uncoordinated wreck for that very reason.

by odum 2008-05-13 10:53AM | 0 recs
Won't help with working class whites

It may help a bit with working class white women, but it will only repel working class white men more. Non-college educated white men are, according to polls, more likely to be both racist and sexist. Hillary Clinton may be more palatable to working class white men in a primary, but she won't win them in the general.

by elrod 2008-05-13 10:56AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

I live in Portland, Oregon. We have recent experience here with problem "dream teams." In the not-too-recent past, the president of the Trailblazers had a philosophy of drafting and trading for the best athletic talent he could find. He paid no heed to warnings that those talents might not work together well. He just handed them to the coach and said "make a team out of this."

Until Bill Clinton's presidency, the VP slot was a deadend. Once in a while, the VP could succeed to the top spot, but while in office, the VP mostly sat and waited. Clinton brought Gore into the A team, probably a good thing. But that growth turned into a cancer in the form of Dick Cheney. The office MUST be made secondary to the president again.

I just don't see the fit. How many of you really believe that the two would make a good team? I think the argument is that Clinton would bring votes, money and volunteers to help in the election. That is possible, but what about after the election? my guess is that Obama would have to build high walls to keep his presidency safe from infiltration and undue influence. I just would not be at all surprised to find the Clintons trying to take the reins whenever they could. So if Obama successfully isolates the Clintons sufficiently, he (1) is labeled as "just another politician protecting his turf," and (2) is distracted or at least limited by the Clintons in pursuing his policy goals. Not a good team.

Finally, everyone is assuming that if Clinton is on the ticket, everything will be great. But will being number 2 really satisfy hard-core Clinton supporters? Some of you here certainly qualify as the hardcore (not meant as a disparaging term, just a measure of the depth of your feelings). Will you be transformed into instant team players now that your candidate is number 2, not number 1?

And what about the white voters Clinton is pulling in right now? Do you really think that the voters who have not supported Obama for cultural reasons will suddenly say "Wow. A ticket of a black man and a woman. This is just the ticket for me!?"

I think the dream ticket ignores both the election and what comes after.

by anoregonreader 2008-05-13 11:00AM | 0 recs
what are Obama's weaknesses?
No chief exec time?
No military experience?
Being from a northern, overwhelmingly Dem state?
Not a "White" guy?
by Carl Nyberg 2008-05-13 11:01AM | 0 recs
Correction: Obama = will of the people

As such, Obama gets to pick the VP, not the people.

I hope he offers it to Clinton, but I know that his core supporters are loathe to accept such a crazy idea.

by reggie44pride 2008-05-13 11:03AM | 0 recs
how's an Obama/Clinton ticket test

in focus groups? In polls?

by Carl Nyberg 2008-05-13 11:04AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

I don't think she should accept the VP slot if it is offered.  If she accepts and then Obama loses then there is your convenienet scapegoat, which of course everyone would pounce on.  Why go down with him in the GE?  If he is going to be the nominee let's see what he can bring to the table as the agent of change.  I hope I am wrong and he wins in November but if he doesn't why should Clinton have that as part of her legacy?

by JustJennifer 2008-05-13 11:04AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

I doubt he'll offer the Veep spot.  If he did, I doubt she'd accept.

I'm of the opinion that her considerable skills, wonkiness, and determination would make for a great Senate Majority Leader.  Honestly, at this point, HRC as VP would be nothing but distraction and worse, a complete waste of talent.

by fogiv 2008-05-13 11:05AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

It's a bad move. It negates all of his arguments against McCain. You can already see this week how compelling the narrative in his favor is against McCain and how adept they can use statements like "lost bearings" and more of the same in Washington. Not only that, I think Hillary Clinton has demonstrated in this race that she can't be trusted to put anybody else's interests ahead of her own... these traits do not a good vice-president make.

by Graham1979 2008-05-13 11:05AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

Nothing he does will unite the party. Why would want a Clinton want a demotion from her role as Senator? What exactly does a VP do? basically nothing. The only reason someone wants to be VP is to be actually a President one day. Being Obama's VP would literally be like her being his prisoner. Not only that, his tadical band of elitist supporters hate her, so why would anyone want to go through 24/7 harassment? This unity BS is just crap from the media who are too lazy to actually report on anything substanstial.

by bsavage 2008-05-13 11:06AM | 0 recs
the reagan/bush analogy may be more appropriate...

than people realize.  i'd venture that many/most posters here don't know about how ronald reagan got to the point of running with george bush.  at the convention in detroit, there was rampant speculation (including in the media) about reagan choosing gerald ford as his running mate.  for the reaganauts there, this was hard enough.  most were rabid conservatives, who believed that henry kissinger had sold the free world down the river.  but there henry was, negotiating on ford's behalf, trying to arrange that difficult marriage with the reagan team.

reagan's supporters/campaign staff were trying to swallow that.  but at some point, those negotiations broke down and reagan made the decision to offer the veep to george bush (who accused reagan of pushing voodoo economics).  reagan came down to the trailer where his campaign team was assembled and made the announcement.  he started by saying that it might be difficult for some people to accept this.  "it's bush.  the decision is made," or something like that.  "i'll give you fellows some time to deal with it" (i'm paraphrasing from memory here.)

reagan was right about it not going over well.  as soon as he left, the trailor literally exploded.  someone threw their chair at the door (dinting it) where reagan had just exited.  vulgarities flew.  much shouting emerged.  absolute vulcanic emotion for a period of time.  at the time, i was still a teenager, a democrat, somewhat of an outsider, who didn't really understand the ideological dimensions of the decision or the people in the room.  and the rift that emerged in the campaign before the convention was never mended after it.  there was a deep suspicion between the reagan and the bush people that never really ended, although some people were better at covering it up than others.

i'll leave it up to the reader to decide if that kind of deeply felt animosity and suspicion is beneficial to the general election campaign or an obama administration.  but i do think there's a reason bill clinton choose al gore and nor jerry brown (not that brown was george bush)...

by bored now 2008-05-13 11:08AM | 0 recs
Will Of The People , my ass

It's one helluva stretch to go from a lot of people would like it to the will of the people demand it.  

by rb608 2008-05-13 11:09AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket

The problem is, Obama won't win by changing themes.

He's got the theme for the time. He's not changing it.

So the "thematic incongruence" trumps all.

by DeskHack 2008-05-13 11:09AM | 0 recs
Sam Nunn for VP

http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/shared- blogs/ajc/politicalinsider/entries/2008/ 05/11/nunn_gets_another_mention_for.html ?cxntfid=blogs_political_insider

Former U.S. Senator Sam Nunn of Georgia would be the best qualified to compliment Obama on a national ticket.  He adds national security credentials and has campaigned along with former Oklahoma Senator David Boren for a change in politics.  This can be tied in with Obama's message.  Most importantly he's moderate enough to place his native state of Georgia on the electoral map. If Obama focuses on the West he could carry Colorado, Nevada, and New Mexico.  If Nun campaigns in the south he could help carry Georgia for Obama and possibly place Virginia and West Virginia in the competitive category.  

by jarod 2008-05-13 11:14AM | 0 recs
Question for Obamacrats

I am a Democrat who never fell in love with either Clinton or Obama.  I think both are irritating figures for different reasons, but I support both for president.

However, I have read through the comments section and it is obvious Obama supporters do not want Clinton anywhere near the ticket.

Let me ask a question:

Would you prefer that Clinton go to the convention, cause a ton of shit, and Obama has his "own" VP   or

Would you prefer a scenario where going to a nasty convention is averted by having Clinton as VP.

Just two hypotheticals.  Consider them.

by reggie44pride 2008-05-13 11:19AM | 0 recs
More McCain Ads

1) announcer: Will Barack Obama protect your second amendment rights to gun ownership? Here's what his running mate thinks: [hillary indiana and PA clips]

2) announcer: bla bla bla - Hillary: "Shame on YOU Barack Obama, Shame on YOU" announcer: bla bla bla - Hillary: "Shame on YOU Barack Obama, Shame on YOU", etc.

3) announcer: Does Barack Obama share your values on religion? His running mate doesn't think so. [Hillary clip on whether he's a Muslim] [Hillary clip on how she wouldn't have stayed in Wright's church]

and that's just Hillary - parse through some of Bill loose-lipped adventures at all those rural campaign stops and I'm sure you'll find no end of anti-Obama gems.

This ticket would allow the Republicans to be as funny as Stewart and Colbert and that's one thing we simply can't allow to happen!

by obsessed 2008-05-13 11:20AM | 0 recs
It will look fake...

as we all know it would be a fake relatonship

by FLS 2008-05-13 11:46AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

Polling the public about this sort of thing is pretty meaningless. Polls say that Obama should pick Clinton because most voters can only name three or four Democratic politicians. Most voters can't even name their own congressman, and they certainly haven't thought much about who should be vice president.

I guarantee you that if Obama picks Sebelius, Napolitano, Wes Clark, Ted Strickland, or any of a dozen other reasonable candidates, the next day you'll find polls saying that large majorities of Democrats think it's an excellent choice.

by vinc 2008-05-13 11:23AM | 0 recs

Don't tell me you are gettig our news from the evening comedy shows.

Seriously... Hardball is  a lughingstock and literally vrythin on that show is overwelmedby what a douche Tweety is.

As to the Obama/Clnton ticket... NO THANKS!  I just don'tlike her at all.  She's duplicitous and grating.  I hate her smile, I hate her clapping and I hate the way she talks.  I've looked at the stupid chimp for 8 years now, and I have no desire to see her ugly mug for the next 8 years!

by teknofyl 2008-05-13 11:28AM | 0 recs
very convenient

Very convenient now  for Sen Clinton to be willing to share the same stage as the inexperienced Sen Obama.


by FLS 2008-05-13 11:43AM | 0 recs
You're learning, Grasshopper.

Todd, I suspect this is the beginning of a trend at myDD to actually improve the writing now that substantial posts can be made.

Chris Bowers would research his posts well, edit them (something I have not been that good at, of late, but.. I digress).

And post them with a certain compact clarity that invited discussion.

Witness, Mr. Beeton, your post has drawn 249 comments in 30 minutes.


This is what myDD was all about. Agree. Clinton is the logical and strong choice for VP.
And this is based on facts other than partisan conjecture.  Those polls pack a whollop, there.

Keep up the good work.
Don't fire until you see the whites of their eyes.

by Trey Rentz 2008-05-13 11:46AM | 0 recs
Re: You're learning, Grasshopper.

75  % of Clinton votes want her on the ticket.
43% of Obama voters want her on the ticket

What it says to me is that it is Clinton voters hanging on to the next best thing rather than an overwhelming desire to have her as VP. We shall see how everyone feels in the summer. And VP picks are hardly a popularity contest anyway
And it also says to me by the way that a simple math formula says the same poll found Obama support to be at 60% and Clinton at 40%.

by Benjaminomeara 2008-05-13 11:51AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

There are different schools of thought here.

If Obama is all about reaching out, and bringing people together, then shouldn't he bring together his own party by bringing his opponent into his ticket?

On the other hand, Obama is all about CHANGE.  That has been his catch phrase, his key idea, his prime mover throughout the campaign.  Clinton does not represent change, with her "30 years of experience."

Perhaps putting Clinton on the ticket would soothe some of her supporters and get him in the White House.  Maybe.

But would YOU want Bill and Hillary Clinton doing...their own thing over at the Naval Observatory while you were trying to be president?

Besides, I don't think Hillary would take the position, and Bill would definitely balk at being the husband of the Vice-President.

by Reluctantpopstar 2008-05-13 11:48AM | 0 recs
if Obama on the ticket, i will vote for McCain

by engels 2008-05-13 11:58AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

What people?

I'm a people

I'm a liberal

I realllllly don't like Obama

Ok, I hate Obama

Hopefully Hillary won't even consider being 2nd in command to this dangerous unqualified racist sexist American hating power hungry prick, Obama.

I won't vote for Obama under any circumstances.

I live in a purple state. Dems need us.

Hillary '08  or bust


by TheAudacityofOblahblah 2008-05-13 12:13PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

You hate Obama? Geez. I'm really curious what he did you get you that mad. Are you one of those voters who really think their candidate is that different from all the rest? Let me tell you that she is great bu she's not 180 from Obama. They are 98% the same politically. To hold such a stance as yours has no foundation in reality unless it's personal.

by neverfox 2008-05-13 11:59PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

Does anyone really think that picking Hillary for the Veep spot would really work from a governing standpoint if Obama wins?  No President wants a Veep who could potentially overshadow him, especially not one married to an ex-President.  Obama and Hillary in the same room is crowded enough, put Bill in the picture and it's packed.  Sorry, Bill's not going to be able to circumvent the 22nd Ammendment this way either.

by ctd72 2008-05-13 12:56PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

That type of view is conspiratorial at best. You give too much credit to the veep spot.

by neverfox 2008-05-14 09:01AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

First, I voted for Obama in the CA primary.

Second, I don't think Obama will win in November as things stand now.

Why? He's going to lose OH, FL, MI and WV to McCain. Clinton would likely win all of these states. That's 72 electoral votes. 72!!

What will he get that Clinton likely won't?  CO and IA. That's a measly 16 votes.

For the math challenged that's 72 - 16 = 56 more votes than Obama. Clinton would then beat McCain by 39 votes and Obama would fall short. Obama will lose to McCain and Clinton will win.

I know this is hard to understand because how can someone win the primary (I'm not in any way saying Obama's win wouldn't be fair and square) and be worse in the GE than the loser. But that's a problem with the DNC setup. Same question can be said about how Gore could lose in 2000. Because "win" depends on the rules you use.

If you want a Democray in the White House and you put Obama at the top, you need Hillary. It may not make sense for lots of standard reasons normally dropped in the talk about veep but this ISN'T A NORMAL YEAR. We haven't had this kind of 50-50 race before.

It's Obama-Clinton or nothing (i.e. McCain wins). Take it or leave it, Barack. Don't screw us by picking someone else.

by neverfox 2008-05-13 11:54PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

I removed likely ties from my calculation to get the 39 vote margin.

by neverfox 2008-05-13 11:55PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

This may sound surprising to most of you but this election isn't about how much you like the candidate. The candidates were chosen for you by the political elite and we only get to "vote" when it's whittled down to 3-4 people by the media and by the money in charge.

What matters now is the old "best of two evils" game that always marks US elections. McCain is not the better choice for a Democrat. Obama is not so different from Clinton that you need to take this personally and lash out. Understand that you were never in total control of the outcome. Sometimes winning is more important than getting everything you want.

Think of the women who will lose their reproductive rights. Think of the solidiers being killed. Think of the people without health care.

Don't be selfish, please. I beg you.

by neverfox 2008-05-14 12:05AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

no thanks on that "unity" ticket.  i agree completely with jeralyn here:

"If Obama wins the nomination, let him go forth against McCain in November without leaning on Hillary or choosing another female VP candidate just because he wants the female vote."

the only thing i disagree with jeralyn on is that i will never vote for obama.  and obamabots: that's not a threat, it's a promise.  and last i checked, there's over 50% of us and growing.

obama is going to make the unthinkable possible:  snatch defeat from the jaws of victory for dems this november.

by nance 2008-05-14 12:24AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama/Clinton Ticket = The Will Of The People

How can you call it "unthinkable" while at the same time you are saying you are going to directly contribute to that outcome? Are you a masocist?

by neverfox 2008-05-14 08:59AM | 0 recs


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