Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

To say I'm disconcerted by today's obsession with the release of the Clintons' tax returns is an understatement. Does anyone else think the feeding frenzy is flat out embarrassing or is it my whole WASP uncomfortable talking about money thing? Is it news? Sure. Is it worth poring through? If you like. But the glee with which so-called Democrats at dailykos have launched "an investigation" into the Clintons' tax returns is most disturbing of all.

First there was the "mothership" diary which stated as its goal:

This is the diary to discuss the Clinton tax returns, which are scheduled to drop this morning.

We'll need to create teams to look through these tax returns, so please step up to volunteer to cover each year's tax return so we can find the information we need in those returns. As soon as I have the link to the returns available, I'll put it up here in this diary.

Also, please recommend this diary so it can be on the recommended list as an action item for Kossacks.

Then there was the "Breaking" diary announcing that the Clintons, damn them!, are rolling in it. Here are the diarist's accusations...err...observations:

That's a lot of money by anyone's standards.  Is this the reason why she was holding out for so long- for fear that the fact they are very, very rich would hurt her image? Will it hurt her ability to connect with her poverty stricken constituents?  Or was there something else that was she hiding?  

What's with the timing? Obviously she knew that today was Dr. King's day. They released them 1 hour before the MLK march in Memphis and during the MLK rally. Take from that what you will...

Finally, it now seems much less significant that she loaned her campaign $5 million.  She could've done that many times over!

Again, so much for hope and uplift, eh guys?

But my point here isn't to slam the Hillary haters of dailykos, although reading through the comments of the second diary made me want to take a shower, but rather to point out the voice of reason and sanity that lives in the community over yonder. There was almost a pitchforks and torches feel to some of the comments in the mothership diary, from Obama supporters at that. Here's just a sampling:

I am writing this because this nonsense is now being trumpeted on other blogs, and it is embarrassing me as a frequent poster here and as an Obama supporter.  

This is the type of vulture politics I saw when I stood at a newsstand in DC and watched three young Republicans poring iover the Ken Starr report, giggling.  

It's fucking disconcerting, and I am disconcerted as hell...

I stand against this, as many Obama supporters do and should.

I am not comfortable with this diary...because of the way it presents the valid task of examining a facet of a presidential candidate as a search-and-destroy mission. Nothing wrong with combing through this, it was done with Obama, and will be done with McCain (where are your returns anyway, McC?), but it's not a suitable subject for a live blog. There are other investigations done by this site to model this after that are much more appropriate to the task... this one just makes things look slimy.

So you are declaring them corrupt and they have to prove they are innocent?

With you 100%. I am becoming more and more disenchanted with both Obama's supporters (and I am one) and this site. This is petty gotcha politics at its worst. Count me very much out.

I Agree With This As Well - Please Unrecommend. Reviewing Hillary's returns has to be done as part of the process of vetting our candidates.  But the whole feel of this post and peoples reaction to it comes across as being mean spirited.  If it were McSame I would be all over it, but not to a fellow Democrat.

And there were plenty more just like them. In addition, there was a diary called I'm embarrassed for us in which diarist kubla000 writes "today, dKos jumped the shark.  and i'm embarrased for us" and, of course, this parody diary titled "LIVEBLOG MOTHERSHIP: CLINTON DENTAL RECORDS" that captured the absurdity of the anti-Clinton spectacle. As diarist drational put it:

Is the change we want to become like the GOP?

It's tempting sometimes to paint the dailykos community with a broad anti-Hillary brush, just as many like to paint MyDD as anti-Obama. The truth is much more complex than that as I was reminded by the comments of the diaries above. The blogosphere thrived on a sort of singleminded us against them mentality, whether it was Democrats vs. Republicans, outsiders vs. insiders or gate crashers vs. gate keepers; but now we have trained our sights on each other. So it was a relief to me to see that while some diarists persist in feeding the Obama vs. Clinton flames, as Angry Mouse wrote the other day, there is beginning to be a rebellion against it there, and I hope here as well.

Tags: 2008 Presidential election, dailykos, Hillary Clinton, meta, MyDD, tax returns (all tags)

Comments

187 Comments

Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

"Mothership diary?"  You've got to be kidding.  We used that for live-blogging the California fires last year...a noble purpose to be sure.  Now they're using it to attempt to destroy a Democrat.  Not so much nobility there.

How sad to see what dKos has disintegrated into.  They're like rabid dogs over there.  I do not regret having left.

by creeper1014 2008-04-04 07:00PM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

It was only a few people involved. And lots of people jumped in to say it was not appropriate.  I saw the diary and thought it was silly so didn't bother to even comment.

You can find some just as outrageous stuff here.  Some people just get a little crazy.  It's up to the rest of us to try to keep things sane.

by GFORD 2008-04-04 07:43PM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

Here Here!  I haven't been to DKos in weeks.

by jaydub799 2008-04-05 09:02AM | 0 recs
I'm not part of the strike -

But I am on an extended vacation.  The last straw for me was getting troll ratings for commenting on a particular diary that it was nice to see something positive about Senator Clinton.  When I emailed Kos admin to complain about the ratings abuse - I was completely ignored.  No one gave a damn - so I left.

I did this a couple of years back actually.  There were attack groups roaming the diaries, driving off all the good posters.  I'd only recently come back, actually - posting mostly personal, observational diaries.  Then the Hillary hate began, and once again an extended vacation seemed the thing to do.  I'll try back again after the election to see if things have improved.  It's sad, really.  So many wonderful diarists are leaving.  

by The Fat Lady Sings 2008-04-05 09:39AM | 0 recs
Re: I'm not part of the strike -

Markos doesn't generally answer messages, which is unsurprising given the number he gets, and as a few troll ratings would not affect your status there no one would likely see this as a real emergency.  For the record, while I'm a strong Obama supporter, I would have uprated you if you were troll-rated for saying what you report you said.  This is, as Hillary is fond of saying, a hard-fought race, but even if each candidates is aggressively vetted from the other side, most of us recognize that there's nothing wrong with looking at the positives as well.

by Major Danby 2008-04-05 02:07PM | 0 recs
I didn't email Markos

I emailed another front pager - someone I've already shared correspondence with.  I pointed out the diary and the comments and asked that the situation be looked into.  No reply.  And no one uprated me.  The only person who commented that it was ratings abuse was someone I blog with over at My Left Wing.

It's out of control over there.  Frankly - Markos should take charge of his blog - if he disagrees with the behavior.  I would guess he doesn't.  It's a pity.  All he's going to be left with are troll patrollers.  I won't be back till after the election.

by The Fat Lady Sings 2008-04-05 08:22PM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

I agree - it was the 2nd lead on the MSM news tonight & the universal vitriol over the not so shocking fact that <gasp> the Clintons have money @@ completely bumped the controversial McCain footage out of visible rotation.  Let me ask - what do McCain's tax returns look like? Why aren't the Dem. blogs pouring over them instead of someone who has advanced the party for so many years?  Why aren't they covering the fact that Hillary Clinton is the ONLY one of the 3 possible contenders who met MLK & walked th walk back then?  McCain was not of that political persuasion, Clinton was out being an activist for change and Obama was not relevant at that point. Nothing about that though whatsoever.

by jrsygrl 2008-04-04 07:03PM | 0 recs
McCain

Let me ask - what do McCain's tax returns look like?

He hasn't released them.

by Shawn 2008-04-04 07:12PM | 0 recs
Re: McCain

So then why is it such a big issue that Clinton hasn't released hers until now?  Why isn't the media all over the fact that McCain's tax returns have not been released?  Why wasn't it even mentioned that he is the remaining holdout to release his records, by the MSM?

by jrsygrl 2008-04-04 08:15PM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

I agree - it was the 2nd lead on the MSM news tonight & the universal vitriol over the not so shocking fact that
<gasp>the Clintons have money


I agree that is was mentioned on the news, but I didn't really detect "universal vitriol" in the stories. 

And this thing about searching through diaries on DailyKos and finding ones that are too eager to trash a fellow Democrat and then frame quotes and talk about what all the Clinton haters are doing over at DailyKos -- it just seems over the top to go looking in a high traffic blog and find things and hang the whole blog with them.  Do you have any idea about the traffic on that site?

The idea of collecting things like that to build your case about a place with so many people doing things at once seems petty and false.

I am still waiting to hear something significant about the Clinton's taxes.  We already knew that Bill made a lot of money speaking and with his book.  If there is anything there I am sure someone will find it and then will be soon enough  to debate whether it is important.

I don't think that the fact that some people may be talking about that prospect in a too eager way on the DailyKos say anything about that site.

by Fred in Vermont 2008-04-04 07:52PM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

Fred, it's the whole product, not just this small example. Have you seen the polls there about how many will vote for McCain or not vote if Hillary wins the nomination? There are very few fair people left with the guts to stick up for what is right and risk the troll ratings and hate aimed their way.

And yes, some of it is on the front page. I realize there are some nutty posters here, but the front page has stayed pretty fair. I hope we can all help this place have balance because there is none left over there.

by tabbycat in tenn 2008-04-04 08:07PM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

Yes, I've seen those polls. They match exactly what similar polls say here.

by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner 2008-04-04 11:45PM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

There are very few fair people left with the guts to stick up for what is right and risk the troll ratings and hate aimed their way.


I know how that feels.  I almost decided to stop coming here when I noticed that I had gotten a half dozen "trolls" and one "hide" for some comments I posted the other day.  And to make it worse the same people made stupid replies to me and gave each other "mojo" for them.

It was quite a shock because it had never happened to me before in years of blogging and my first reaction was never to come here again, but on second thought I realized that my mistake had been in entering into a non-front-page thread.  So I will stay around but stick to main threads.


I hope we can all help this place have balance because there is none left over there.


Well I hope to do that too by continuing to drop by here as well as that "other" place.

by Fred in Vermont 2008-04-05 04:52AM | 0 recs
A review of hidden comments

at DKOS shows little tolerance for some of the more extreme behavior suggested here.

Two posts that called Hillary a _ were immediately trolled into oblivion.  

by fladem 2008-04-04 08:16PM | 0 recs
Re: A review of hidden comments

And yet last night when I was engaged in a debate, one poster linked to an author that wrote right wing propaganda to smear Clinton & then when I pointed that out I got troll rated (although admittedly my other debating points were let be to the credit of the other posters). Then the same poster delighted in posting over & over again the word Bitch to describe Clinton. That was not troll rated & truly was a bit disconcerting to see from members of my own party.  I am not voting for Clinton b/c I think it is my feminist duty mind you; her  gender is irrelevant to me as I think it should be to everyone.  However as a working woman & a feminist when I see people start gleefully calling her a bitch on a DEMOCRATIC blog & that is left alone it does bother me and was something I really never expected to see from my party.  I deal with this in the workplace;  I expect that my party which is about progress would not be reflecting that sort of sentiment.  I found it really disconcerting.

by jrsygrl 2008-04-04 09:08PM | 0 recs
Re: A review of hidden comments

Gotta link? I'd like to know who was doing that. I'll gladly hand out some HRs if the person's deserving.

by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner 2008-04-04 11:46PM | 0 recs
Re: A review of hidden comments

Me, too.

by deminva 2008-04-05 05:05AM | 0 recs
DKos research

Just google the words "hillary", "dailykos" and "bitch" and you'll get over 150,000 hits. That should keep you busy until the general election. Then try "whore."

by KnowVox 2008-04-05 06:55AM | 0 recs
And those were on DKOS?

by fladem 2008-04-05 08:14AM | 0 recs
Just in Case

anyone is actually reading these comments, the answer is, for the most part, no.  They come from all sorts of websites.  Most don't actually involve a poster calling Clinton names.  A lot of them involve the McCain house party in which the woman asked "How do we beat the b**?"  Many quote Tina Fey or Tracy Morgan with their "bitch is the new black" back and forth.

by deminva 2008-04-05 03:32PM | 0 recs
And Just in Case Anyone is reading yours

Percentage-wise, very little conversation on Dkos actually discussed McCain, Tina Fey or Tracy Morgan using the "b" word. The vast majority are posters calling Clinton a bitch or other expletives.

by KnowVox 2008-04-05 06:33PM | 0 recs
Re: And Just in Case Anyone is reading yours

I'm not trying to start an argument with you or anyone else, KnowVox, but you're offering an assertion without offering any evidence.  And your claim runs counter to my daily experience at Daily Kos.  I certainly don't read every thread -- who could? -- but I am not used to seeing dKos posters call Clinton a b** without being called on it.  On the other hand, I remember a number of diarists and hundreds of posters outraged by the McCain incident, as well as others discussing both Fey's and Morgan's Weekend Update commentaries.

by deminva 2008-04-05 07:44PM | 0 recs
Re: And Just in Case Anyone is reading yours

You give me a couple of zeroes for no reason. I am going to use the same standard and you put up a purely speculative comment which certainly deserves a 0 more than mine.

by Pravin 2008-04-06 07:15PM | 0 recs
Re: DKos research

I guess it's over 150,001 now, after your post.

by deminva 2008-04-05 03:24PM | 0 recs
Re: A review of hidden comments

I'm not saying these things to disparage Obama supporters. And truth be known I consider dailykos to be my first home.  I only came here the other day when someone mentioned it to me; I haven't got the time to spend blogging everywhere so I wasn't familiar with Mydd.  

The reason I am saying this is b/c it is really upsetting me as a person to see this from my own party.  I have known, being a woman in the workforce, that misogyny still exists. I know alot of the venom projected towards Clinton is based on that in part. But I just didn't expect to see it from a party that I have always been proud of b/c it represents progress.  Honestly, if you think I am lying you can just check out my comments section on daily kos & see the threads I have posted on...

Once again I did not post this to engage in a further argument or to disparage anyone or any nominee or their supporters. Further I am not saying this sentiment typifies all Obama supporters.  I am saying however that this attitude has become rampant, even within the more progressive party & it needs to stop. Deal with the issues & realize that we are all Dems. looking to achieve the ultimate resolution in the end.  Focus on bringing McCain down not the alternate nominee from our party.

by jrsygrl 2008-04-05 11:04AM | 0 recs
Re: A review of hidden comments

" Honestly, if you think I am lying you can just check out my comments section on daily kos & see the threads I have posted on..."

No, honestly, I wasn't being cute or accusing you of lying. I really would HR someone who used the language you describe and have done so before. I was just hoping to not have to sift through comment history.

Like any community, there are people at dKos who ruin things for others. And of course, there are people who don't realize their own prejudices. There are also people so hung up in Hillary-hate that they're willing to step far beyond the bounds of what they'd condone had it been directed toward anyone else.

But the same definitely applies here, and probably at most other blogs where bands of vocal, aggressive candidate-supporters set up shop. My goal is to just survive the primary and hope that we can gradually come together again.

As for those promising to vote for McCain, screw 'em. I'm not begging anyone to vote Democratic. I question whether they were progressives in the first place if they would actually entertain a revenge vote for McCain.

by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner 2008-04-05 11:31AM | 0 recs
I can';t find the link

to which you refer.  If you post the link I will troll rate the comment once I get a chance to read the context of the comment.

In the future if you feel that people are going overboard send a note to an FP.  Or send me an e-mail and will be more than happy to distribute a donut.

by fladem 2008-04-05 08:25AM | 0 recs
Re: I can';t find the link

I don't care about a troll rating someone, honestly. I only did it once when someone completely debased John Kerry. It is the bigger issue that is my concern.  I'm not saying this to tattle or hurt someone's ranking on another blog - I am saying this b/c it is a sentiment I have seen for quite sometime & it bothers me greatly.  Talk about why you like Obama; don't engage in smear of another Dem candidate on a Dem blog. And don't engage in the misogyny that exists in small minds that bring the country.  Bottom line is I expect this from the GOP not ourselves.  McCain is the candidate who must not win.

by jrsygrl 2008-04-05 11:15AM | 0 recs
Re: I can';t find the link

I don't care about a troll rating someone, honestly. I only did it once when someone completely debased John Kerry. It is the bigger issue that is my concern.  I'm not saying this to tattle or hurt someone's ranking on another blog - I am saying this b/c it is a sentiment I have seen for quite sometime & it bothers me greatly.  Talk about why you like Obama; don't engage in smear of another Dem candidate on a Dem blog. And don't engage in the misogyny that exists in small minds that bring the country.  Bottom line is I expect this from the GOP not ourselves.  McCain is the candidate who must not win.

by jrsygrl 2008-04-05 11:15AM | 0 recs
Re: A review of hidden comments

I argued with you the other day on DKos (as Seneca Doane), and I would have troll-rated anyone who called Hillary a bitch.  If you say "that's not appropriate no matter who you support," you'll likely get lots of recs.

by Major Danby 2008-04-05 02:10PM | 0 recs
Re: A review of hidden comments

That is a good idea- Thank you. I think I was just so offended that I had to walk away. I don't want to post anything too inflammatory b/c that isn't who I am so when something bothers me on a more emotional level (such as irrational "Bitch" posts) I try to ignore it b/c I don't want to take it to that level.  But here when it was mentioned I thought I would post my observation.

It is nice to get recs but I try to just post what I think in as respectful manner as possible & hope I give others possible food for thought in the process of an intelligent exchange. That is mainly what I look for.

I'm sorry I didn't see this until now - I just joined up here after someone mentioned the site (not positively as it were) on daily kos & I wanted to have another place to get additional perspective.

by jrsygrl 2008-04-09 03:59PM | 0 recs
Re: A review of hidden comments

A review of hidden comments . . .at DKOS shows little tolerance for some of the more extreme behavior suggested here.


Right I have noticed the same thing.  And it looks like some of the more extreme trolls (who have also beenposting things here) have gotten themselves banned (at least under the same names) on DKos.

by Fred in Vermont 2008-04-05 05:00AM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

Right but how many popular diaries were all over a democratic blog site re: her tax release & those implications? How many diaries or comments were made prior as to when she would release her tax returns? And the true enemy, the opposition's nominee (McCain) STILL hasn't released his returns...Where is the focus?  Clinton is a Democrat & a friend to the party. If you aren't supporting her nomination fine; but I don't understand the emphasis on bashing her either.

by jrsygrl 2008-04-04 08:18PM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

How many diaries or comments were made prior as to when she would release her tax returns?


Well but I think it was one of the debate hosts, (Russert?) who first injected this into the primary debate and then the Obama campain actually called for it.

I would think that this is a legitimate reason for both sides to pay some attention to the actual release (on the traditional Friday afternoon) of a whole lot of complicated data.

I am sure the the staff of both campaigns and also lots of reporters are going to go over the stuff.  We should not be suppressed if some bloggers also want to get into the act and post comments about it on an open site.  I don't think you should be supprised that some of them are a little bit clumsy and over eager.  This is a big blogosphere.

by Fred in Vermont 2008-04-05 05:07AM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

But why not the call for McCain to release his??? Who is running as the other party's nominee?  Not Clinton.

by jrsygrl 2008-04-05 11:10AM | 0 recs
Re: Here's My Perspective

Take it for what you will:

I didn't expect to see anything in the Clintons' tax returns more "smoking" than a big pile of income.  And I'm not against income.

What I am against is hypocrisy and dishonesty.  There's plenty of it to go around in politics, and I do not make any claims that Senator Clinton has cornered the market.  Nevertheless, I was frankly hoping for some schadenfreude when the Clintons' taxes were released because of all the spin surrounding her claims of having been thoroughly vetted.  

Here's what I mean:  Senator Clinton, her senior advisors, and her surrogates pushed hard the meme that Democrats couldn't really trust Obama with the nomination because he hadn't been vetted.  Who knows what the Republicans might uncover to use against him, they said, using it implicitly and explicitly as rationale to vote against him during the primaries and even to have superdelegates help Clinton overcome a pledged delegate deficit.  

Meanwhile, they told us, there is nothing left to find about Senator Clinton.  The thugs have been looking for years, and if you have heard about it already, it doesn't exist.  This argument was intended in part to actually stonewall unwelcome questions, as in Senator Clinton has already been vetted, so if you're asking that sort of probing question, you must be up to no good.  We saw this when Wolfson actually likened Obama to Ken Starr because he had the temerity to question why she hadn't released her tax returns.

And yet, Clinton hadn't been vetted.  The best reason to release tax returns is to show that everything is in order there.  There was no valid reason ever offered by the Clinton campaign to delay the release of these previous years' tax returns, and my sense early on is that they didn't want to have to defend the Clintons' wealth.  But they also handled this issue poorly, and they intended to deceive.  For more than a month, we were told that these returns would be released by April 15, as if this year's deadline had anything to do with the old tax returns sitting around.  I believe they wanted to confuse low-info voters into thinking it was the 2007 taxes being discussed.

And in the past few weeks, we've seen how Senator Clinton's own misstatements undercut this argument of having been vetted.  No one would have dug around for old clips of her visit to Tuzla if it weren't for her dramatic exaggerations about what happened on the tarmac.  

So while I, as an Obama supporter, wasn't pleased with the breathless gotcha excitement some at dKos exhibited, I was frankly hoping something would be revealed.  

by deminva 2008-04-05 05:19AM | 0 recs
Re: Here's My Perspective

Take it for what you will:

I didn't expect to see anything in the Clintons' tax returns more "smoking" than a big pile of income.  And I'm not against income.

What I am against is hypocrisy and dishonesty.  There's plenty of it to go around in politics, and I do not make any claims that Senator Clinton has cornered the market.  Nevertheless, I was frankly hoping for some schadenfreude when the Clintons' taxes were released because of all the spin surrounding her claims of having been thoroughly vetted.  

Here's what I mean:  Senator Clinton, her senior advisors, and her surrogates pushed hard the meme that Democrats couldn't really trust Obama with the nomination because he hadn't been vetted.  Who knows what the Republicans might uncover to use against him, they said, using it implicitly and explicitly as rationale to vote against him during the primaries and even to have superdelegates help Clinton overcome a pledged delegate deficit.  

Meanwhile, they told us, there is nothing left to find about Senator Clinton.  The thugs have been looking for years, and if you have heard about it already, it doesn't exist.  This argument was intended in part to actually stonewall unwelcome questions, as in Senator Clinton has already been vetted, so if you're asking that sort of probing question, you must be up to no good.  We saw this when Wolfson actually likened Obama to Ken Starr because he had the temerity to question why she hadn't released her tax returns.

And yet, Clinton hadn't been vetted.  The best reason to release tax returns is to show that everything is in order there.  There was no valid reason ever offered by the Clinton campaign to delay the release of these previous years' tax returns, and my sense early on is that they didn't want to have to defend the Clintons' wealth.  But they also handled this issue poorly, and they intended to deceive.  For more than a month, we were told that these returns would be released by April 15, as if this year's deadline had anything to do with the old tax returns sitting around.  I believe they wanted to confuse low-info voters into thinking it was the 2007 taxes being discussed.

And in the past few weeks, we've seen how Senator Clinton's own misstatements undercut this argument of having been vetted.  No one would have dug around for old clips of her visit to Tuzla if it weren't for her dramatic exaggerations about what happened on the tarmac.  

So while I, as an Obama supporter, wasn't pleased with the breathless gotcha excitement some at dKos exhibited, I was frankly hoping something would be revealed.  

by deminva 2008-04-05 05:19AM | 0 recs
The Clinton people are every bit

as guilty of taking right wing attacks on Obama and adopting them as their own.

See half the diaries by Alegre.

by fladem 2008-04-05 08:17AM | 0 recs
that is so wrong

please post an example of right wing style attacks on Obama.  It is he who is running against the democratic party to win the votes of independents.  Republicans are not attacking him.  So how and Allegre be accused of "right wing attacks"?

by TeresaINPennsylvania 2008-04-05 01:20PM | 0 recs
Re: that is so wrong

He's "running against the Democratic Party"?

"Republicans are not attacking him?"

Teresa, I don't know which of these statements is the more insupportable.  Maybe you can try to support both of them and we can find out.

by Major Danby 2008-04-05 02:12PM | 0 recs
Re: that is so wrong

oh let's see. the over the top attacks on Wright. The McCain and Hillary passed the Commander in Chief test which reinforces a right wing notion of national security.

by Pravin 2008-04-06 07:16PM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

Sometimes it takes the owner or administrator of the site to be the voice of reason. I like it here because all the frontpagers tend to be fair and objective in their analysis and judgment, unfortunately out at DKos, Markos himself has lost credibility with some of his previous posts. There is a feeding frenzy and some have made it their mission to make the Clintons "unelectable" not only for November but even for any subsequent election, the author of the "mothership" diary is chief among them will the majority stand by and applaud this  thuggish quasi-Republican behavior. So much for Democratic unity at DailyKos. But thanks for the post. It still makes me optimistic to think there are people like you who do care for the Democratic party and democracy within the Democratic party.

by tarheel74 2008-04-04 07:03PM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement
  1.  It wasn't a front page diary.  
  2.  Did you conveniently overlook the comments by Obama supporters in Todd's diary?  Did they not fit in with your worldview that we are evil?
by GFORD 2008-04-04 07:45PM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

You now support Democratic unity??  Below are some of your quotes, yeah I can see how that can be meant as Democratic unity (rolling eyes)

"yes Obama's base is African-Americans and latte-sipping liberal elites, check out Michael Barone's analysis on USA Today or for that matter Jerome's front page post). Problem is most Obama supporters either have the wool firmly pulled on their eyes or are just driven to distraction by irrational Clinton hatred."

"Obama is a person with no identity, his ideological convictions change depending on the direction of the political wind, so I do not have an answer to that question because no one really knows what Obama stands for....except empty placations and false hope."

"Also I think that Obama is a race-baiter who has no meritorious policies on which he could have won this primary fairly."

"Obama is not a progressive.He is running a campaign based on propaganda."

"maybe Obama engineered the breach to appear like the victim once more now that he cannot play the race-card."

"so in addition to race-baiting we can add lying and smearing as attributes required to be an Obama supporter. Really not much different from the candidate himself."

"yeah at least she is not a dishonest serial liar and race-baiter like St. Barack. That is good enough for me and a lot of people who vote for her."

by hootie4170 2008-04-04 08:37PM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

I presume you are referring to the diarist & not me as I never said anything quoted above.

by jrsygrl 2008-04-05 11:17AM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

Your assumption is correct, it was intended for tarheel74.  I find your comments quite good.

by hootie4170 2008-04-05 11:38AM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

Oh okay thank you - I hope my comments are an asset here - that is their intention. It is tough though sometimes with the way the threads run to determine who is being talked to at times...

by jrsygrl 2008-04-05 01:43PM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

Markos himself has lost credibility with some of his previous posts. There is a feeding frenzy and some have made it their mission to make the Clintons "unelectable"


Well next time that happens I hope you call him on it.  But I have to say I have not seen that.

by Fred in Vermont 2008-04-05 05:09AM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

Great great post.  This is the reason I moved to this site from Dkos, Huffpo.  

by easyE 2008-04-04 07:11PM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

DKos is just plain disturbing, with or without the tax returns.  They have to have something to fixate about, cause all they have is each other over there, and then after they get done slobering over Obama and getting themselves soaked, what's left to do for the other 23 hours and 45 minutes of the day?

by Scotch 2008-04-04 07:14PM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

Well, there would be the diaries on other subjects.

Science diaries.
Gardening diaries.
Photography diaries.
The ever-popular pootie diaries.
Cooking diaries.
Diaries about personal triumphs.
Diaries about personal heartbreaks.

You know, just people talking about stuff that interests them.

Oh, by the way, since you seem to be familiar with this site, can you point me to the gardening diaries?  I have some questions about planting bulbs.

by GFORD 2008-04-04 07:48PM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

Maybe you could create one if you like it that much.  'Course those never did seem to fit in with the Hillary Hate theme, but maybe that's just me.

by Scotch 2008-04-04 08:00PM | 0 recs
I doubt there are many here who would be

interested in talking about anything that didn't involve how Obama can't possibly beat McCain.  

by GFORD 2008-04-04 08:10PM | 0 recs
Re: I doubt there are many here who would be

I did like the pootie ones, though.  But ya know, even a pootie could beat Obama.

by Scotch 2008-04-04 08:18PM | 0 recs
My pootie is a Republican :(

There was a poor little homeless cat hanging around and I put a bowl of food and water out in the yard for her.  Once my pootie realized this, she found a place to lurk where she could keep an eye on the bowls and chase off any attempts by the poor starving kitty to get a few mouthfuls.

by GFORD 2008-04-04 09:41PM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

I would love to talk gardening.

I am using earthboxes this year and my stuff is growing huge already.

by J Rae 2008-04-04 09:20PM | 0 recs
Earthboxes

You keep them on your patio?  Growing flowers or vegetables?

by GFORD 2008-04-04 09:42PM | 0 recs
Re: Earthboxes

sorry for the late reply, I had to go to work.

Vegetables on my patio and in my greenhouse. I am using homemade earthboxes as the real ones were a bit pricey for me.

by J Rae 2008-04-05 09:41PM | 0 recs
Re: Earthboxes

I like that idea.  I'm looking at some remodelling here and was thinking about putting in an atrium.  Well really, it would be a combination breakfast nook, atrium.  Will have a roof but otherwise mostly glass.  I think earthboxes could work into that really nicely.

And the soil here is total crap...it's like the dust bowl.

by GFORD 2008-04-05 10:10PM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

They have to have something to fixate about, cause all they have is each other over there

Unlike this site and, say, fixating on Rev. Wright, Rezko, things posted on obama's site, "wealthy elite" Obama supporters, or whatever the heck else you've decided to use on any given to strengthen your tribal identity.

by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner 2008-04-04 11:51PM | 0 recs
The diaries you linked to

are the reason that many have left 'home'.

As kos has suggested, I have found other blogs.

by Coldblue 2008-04-04 07:15PM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

"there is beginning to be a rebellion against it there, and I hope here as well"

rotsa ruck!

by lectric lady 2008-04-04 07:15PM | 0 recs
This diary is your Guernica

and like Picasso. you've depicted the bombimg of the Democratic Party by fascist who are sure they are pure and everyone else is not.  Well done, I'm very sorry to say.

by cpa1a 2008-04-04 07:19PM | 0 recs
Really? I mean, really? Guernica? Oh dear God.

by Addison 2008-04-04 08:22PM | 0 recs
Re: This diary is your Guernica

watch it. You may think you're being witty, but calling us "fascists" is getting pretty dang near the line.

by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner 2008-04-04 11:53PM | 0 recs
Re: This diary is your Guernica

Dang near?  I don't think he could see the line in the rear-view mirror.

by Major Danby 2008-04-05 02:14PM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

I left Dkos two weeks ago and don't see myself returning until possibly November 9.

Between Dkos, vile smack coming from people like Rhandi Rhodes, and all the other crap, I am writing in another Democrat if Obama is the nominee.

I'm having no part of his team.

At least if Obama is a nominee I'll have a stressless election season because I won't feel vested.

by GregNYC 2008-04-04 07:23PM | 0 recs
I'm sorry people on the internet said mean stuff

but I don't think that means you should decide you don't care if McCain becomes President.  

by bosdcla14 2008-04-04 07:34PM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

See I'll be stressed regardless. If Obama is the nominee I have to convince people to vote for someone I don't necessarily completely believe in b/c I know it is still a better option then the alternative. If the alternative occurs, & we have 4 more years of the GOP it would be a travesty.  Additionally, the implication with our Supreme Court would be horrific.  But that whole time I will be concerned in the pit of my stomach that the person who I had much more confidence in to get our country back on track won't be in there; instead I will have to pray that Obama is elected & has a good Cabinet.  So I will be stressed, just in another possibly worse way. Of course the worst is if McCain winds up in office, which despite the punishment this country has endured the past several years, I think is a distinct possibility.

by jrsygrl 2008-04-04 08:23PM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

That's precisely how I felt about John Kerry four years ago.  

I held my nose and voted for him but only because he was the better of two lousy choices.

The difference here is in the level of vitriol associated with this campaign.  It's so bad that it actually scared me away from a candidate who I wanted very much to vote for.  

Sadly, most of the vitriol comes not from the candidates themselves but from their supporters.  We are doing our chosen candidates no good by trashing each other.  Arguing a point with solid evidence is one thing.  Damning your opponent is another.

by creeper1014 2008-04-05 06:27AM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

Correct - although I LIKED & still LIKE John Kerry...

And I like Hillary Clinton - I think in time if I saw more of a track record I might grow to like Obama but his experience needs time to grow, a few months won't do it for me (pre 11/08).  And I do think with everything that Clinton has done for the party & this country that she has EARNED the nomination, so it bothers me when I see the mud slinging from our own side occur.  Like her or not (I do) our country will probably do well under her leadership.

by jrsygrl 2008-04-05 11:21AM | 0 recs
Which is exactly how I will

feel if Clinton wins.

Her husband's entire political career was based on triangulation.  It's not a matter of if, but when, liberals like myself will be betrayed if she wins.

Ask Mary Wright Edelman if you need guidance.  

by fladem 2008-04-05 08:19AM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

Your point is well taken and that kind of attitude is as deplorable as the activity is inevitable.  I have never really enjoyed DailyKos, it just always seemed a bit intemperate at best of times.  But compared to Hillaryis44 it is a paragon of good taste and judicious virtue.  The Orange Satan and Big Pink, not very promising for either faction.

by Shaun Appleby 2008-04-04 07:28PM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

Let me put it to you this way: HRC has declared civil war on the Democratic Party. She knows she can't win other than through destroying Obama. So, let's just ask ourselves why this kind of climate would exist?

Who, in this scenario, is, as you put it, deranged?

I don't support these actions (purposely smearing HRC), but do you think there is any reason why this would happen? You know, like because she's a spent as much time as she can smearing Obama? Because she cares not whether she destroys the party for her and Bill's own selfish gain?

I have no sympathy with HRC (and I already voted for her!!) after what has come out in the past few days (the Time reporters statements, Bill Richardson, and Bill Clinton's finger waging in Cali). She doesn't deserve the support of any thinking, feeling, rational Democrat.

How can you blame Obama and his supporters for fighting back when she openly declares a "kitchen sink" strategy against him? Should they just roll over and let HRC screw them? Do you think this is "right"? Or even rational? Everything she is throwing at him is just coming back to her. It's a truly sad and a pathetic end to what could have been a brilliant political career. Two words: no respect. None. Actions, after all, speak louder than words. And her actions mean that she doesn't deserve even an "inch."

by DrPolitics 2008-04-04 07:34PM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

How has HRC smeared Obama?

by usedmeat 2008-04-04 07:37PM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

How has HRC smeared Obama?

Yeah I'd be interested in knowing about that one...

by fredster 2008-04-05 10:55AM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

Markos?  That you?

by Scotch 2008-04-04 08:06PM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

Pointing out what makes her a stronger candidate for the nomination does not = destroying Obama. As I recall she has stated repeatedly that she would support Obama if he was the nominee.

by jrsygrl 2008-04-04 08:24PM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

"Pointing out what makes her a stronger candidate for the nomination does not = destroying Obama. As I recall she has stated repeatedly that she would support Obama if he was the nominee."

Her supporters' only remaining argument against Obama is that he's supposedly unelectable, and their only real argument in favor of that supposed inelectability is that they'll personally not vote for Obama if he's nominated; and they have the polls to back them up on that. I've lost count on how many Clinton supporters  here argue they won't vote for Obama.

You may argue that that Clinton's not to blame for her supporter's view on the issue -- at which point I have to wonder why she's proven so weak in actually changing her own supporter's mind on this issue.

People that supposedly trust her judgment to vote for her as president, and her willing to say she'd put Obama in VP position (indicating her supposed trust on him) and yet they nonetheless wouldn't vote for Obama? Newsflash -- in a 'dreamticket' with Obama as VP, they'd still have to vote for him. You vote for president and VP both.

My only solution out of this puzzle is that Clinton's supporters merely recognize her supposed support of Obama-over-McCain to be nothing more than a bunch of Clinton's customary lies. They don't believe Clinton really supports Obama against McCain, they recognize her to be winking at them while she's saying that, that's why they won't vote for him.

But if you want to convince me Clinton's a proper leader, and truly wants her supporters to back Obama if he's nominated -- just show me the polls that indicate they will indeed do that. Or explain to me how her base is composed of people so out of tune with her thoughts on the issue.

by Aris Katsaris 2008-04-05 05:42AM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

Her supporters' only remaining argument against Obama is that he's supposedly unelectable

This is absurd.  From everything I have seen this man is simply not qualified to be President of the United States.  His plans and policies are weak and his lack of leadership over the past four years deplorable.  He seems incapable of understanding how deeply offended people can be by twenty years of attendance at a racist church. He finds nothing wrong with undercutting his own campaign by sub rosa contacts with other governments.  He has no problem with disenfranchising hundreds of thousands of voters (don't give me that "rules are rules" crap...this is a travesty) in two states.  

This is so sad.  After 2004 I could hardly wait for this campaign to begin so I could vote for Obama.  Over the past three years that enthusiasm has completely disappeared and I see the man for what he is...an eloquent speaker of pretty words without a clue what it takes to run a country.

In the end, though, it's not arguments "against" Obama that matter.  It's arguments "for" Hillary Clinton...for the hard work she has done, for the experience that rests with her, for her grit, intelligence and compassion.  That's what took me out of Obama's column.  They had me and they lost me.

by creeper1014 2008-04-05 06:50AM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

Clinton has no problem proclaiming legitimate a vote in which the candidates weren't permitted to campaign. This IMO puts her firmly on Lukashenko (or perhaps Turkmenbashi) territory where her views on democracy stands.

Obama seemed to me quite capable of understanding why people would be offended by Wright's remarks, that's why he spoke in detail about the issue afterwards. That doesn't mean he'll abandon a friend to avoid offending people. Good for him. And since most people have heard preachers damning one or the other aspect of USA, I doubt it'll be that big a deal in the long run. (conservative preachers may be damning homosexuality, and black preachers damn white privilege. Wow, what else is new!)

Yay, the church Obama attended is probably racist. Then again the church Kerry attended is misogynistic and homophobic. Were you offended by Kerry attending a Catholic church?

by Aris Katsaris 2008-04-05 07:23AM | 0 recs
Catholic Church

Were you offended by Kerry attending a Catholic church?

As a matter of fact, I was.  I'm an atheist.  Most churches offend me.

by creeper1014 2008-04-05 09:59AM | 0 recs
&quot;DrPolitics&quot;
Have you ever paid close attention to a primary before? Like in 2004?
Remember what the other Democratic candidates did to Howard Dean?
The ad they bought morphed his face into Osama Bin Laden's face.
Someone on Dkos is getting "teams" together to pore through the Clinton's tax returns and find dirt.
Don't you think those bloggers are doing everything they can to destroy Clinton?
by skohayes 2008-04-05 05:40AM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

TR'd for "HRC has declared civil war on the Democratic Party".

That's your opinion and should have been qualified as such.

by creeper1014 2008-04-05 06:30AM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

Please give specific examples of Clinton smearing Obama.  Smearing implies deliberate attempts to dissemble, so please don't use examples that contain facts.  

If you can't back up your statement with anything more than vague innuendo or strained hyperbole, stop repeating it.

by miriam 2008-04-05 10:22AM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement
In 2006 ABC/Disney ran the political hit piece The Path to 911 in a shameless attempt to sway the elections. Since then I haven't bought any Disney/ Pixar products nor have I watched any ABC programming. I wrote them to let them know they won't get another cent out of me until they apologize and publicly admit that the movie was flawed.
I tell you this because I am doing the same with Kos and TPM. No more visits to their websites until they apologize. I ain't gonna hold my breath.
by usedmeat 2008-04-04 07:35PM | 0 recs
Re: That's ridiculous

Disney/ABC is a top-down corporation with a board of director, CEOs, producers and editors, etc. Someone made an editorial decision to air a program based on factoids instead of facts, as an attempt to shift blame away from the Bush administration.

Daily Kos and Mydd are community sites where all users can post diaries. I just feel some of you take this all too personally. I read front page posts, diaries, and comments on both sites. I agree with the views of some writers and disagree with the views of others. Markos is expressing his opinion, as is Jerome and others. At this point, it is absurd to think that they wouldn't have made up their minds like the rest of us have. They are human beings after all. I still keep coming back to both sites, even though I disagree with some of Jerome's posts, especially, like the ones that imply Obama couldn't win the states Hillary has won.  

There is one constituency writing some diaries on Daily Kos who believe the Clinton's tax statements  are relevant. I don't exactly agree with that line of attack, but I also found the Clinton's (not just her supporters) constant fanning of the flames of the Wright controversy to be quite offensive. Are you telling me that making an issue about the Clinton's tax statements is worse than Hillary herself saying Barack is unelectable because of the church he belongs to?

by Panhu 2008-04-04 08:06PM | 0 recs
Re: That's ridiculous
Clinton has made ONE comment about Reverend Wright to the press after she was asked directly about the Wright controversy.
The MEDIA is fanning the flame of the Wright story every day, not Clinton.
You'll remember that Politico was the one who published the picture of Wright ( helpfully provided by the Obama campaign)at a prayer breakfast with 130 people at the White House, in a silly attempt to equate the Clinton's relationship to Wright with Obama's.
by skohayes 2008-04-05 05:48AM | 0 recs
He is right to comment

That there were those of us there who didn't approve of it.  For a while there was even a "Live Blog" of the Breaking News that the Sun will Set in the West.
link is:

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/4 /4/122552/1575

It is snarktastic.
Note I recced that diary.

Although there are rabid Pro-Hillary sites as well such as Taylor Marshes site.

by Student Guy 2008-04-04 07:36PM | 0 recs
LOL that was a great snarky diary!

Shows how crazy things get sometimes.

by GFORD 2008-04-04 07:56PM | 0 recs
And I just posted a news report of it here

Check the recent diaries.

by Student Guy 2008-04-04 08:11PM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

What does it tell me?  That Zuniga is still a Republican?

by Andre 2008-04-04 07:36PM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

Oh, yea, that most liberal bloggers are misogynistic pigs?

by Andre 2008-04-04 07:39PM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

This isn't exactly new.

Dailykos did its best to unseat the democrat Lieberman and a host of conservative democrats.

Trying to take down Republican enabling democrats is pretty much its founding purpose so there isn't anything surprising here.

by TerraFF 2008-04-04 07:39PM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

Once again kids, what is you alls obsession with kos?? Everyday you keep bringing him up. It seems to me that what you really want is to go back there. The opposite of love is not hate it's indifference.

by lion king 2008-04-04 07:47PM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

Gee, in my old neighborhood the opposite of love was a baseball bat or a 2x4 up along side the head.

by usedmeat 2008-04-04 07:52PM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

Well I actually like that site; I am just disconcerted by the representation there of what I  think is happening in the larger picture to the party.  

by jrsygrl 2008-04-04 08:25PM | 0 recs
Markos is a shameful figure

Didn't he used to be a Rethug? His old tendencies are coming out for all to see. His site is now truly vile.

by doyenne49 2008-04-04 08:01PM | 0 recs
Re: Markos is a shameful figure

What makes him a shameful figure?

by Panhu 2008-04-04 08:07PM | 0 recs
Re: Markos is a shameful figure

The "darkening" of Obama's skin did it for me. Three front page posts in one day was three too many. Plus his total reversal in his views regarding Michigan and Florida voters. Read his comments in January and compare them to now.

by tabbycat in tenn 2008-04-04 08:11PM | 0 recs
Re: Markos is a shameful figure

what?! do you not see a problem with Hillary's camp darkening Obama's skin while stretching out the image?

The image was taken directly from her website.

by alex100 2008-04-05 08:15AM | 0 recs
Re: Markos is a shameful figure

He has allowed his site to become a place where hate is spewed freely in the name of unity. He is a hypocrite and he is evil.

by doyenne49 2008-04-04 08:19PM | 0 recs
Re: Markos is a shameful figure

Okay, now, step back for a second and re-read what you wrote:

"He has allowed his site to become a place where hate is spewed freely in the name of unity. He is a hypocrite and he is evil."

Do you see the problem here?

by jere7my 2008-04-04 09:11PM | 0 recs
Re: Markos is a shameful figure

tips for irony.

by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner 2008-04-04 11:56PM | 0 recs
Re: Markos is a shameful figure

But I do not claim to stand for unit. So I am not a hypocrite. But Markos is.

by doyenne49 2008-04-05 07:52AM | 0 recs
Re: Markos is a shameful figure

Markos doesn't stand for unity.

not sure how or where you got that impression.

by alex100 2008-04-05 08:16AM | 0 recs
Re: Markos is a shameful figure

I should add that he is a partisan.

by alex100 2008-04-05 08:18AM | 0 recs
Only Brigadier Lethbridge-Stewart stands for UNIT
But Jerome claims to stand for unity, at least as much as Kos does. The parallel in your post is to Jerome "permitting" hate-spewing on MyDD, as Kos "permits" it on DK.
by jere7my 2008-04-05 08:39AM | 0 recs
You Had Me

right up until the last word.  

Calling names gets you a troll from me even if we support the same candidate.  

Don't do that.

by creeper1014 2008-04-05 06:57AM | 0 recs
Re: Markos is a shameful figure

you should think about calling someone who has done a lot more then you ever have for party building a "shameful figure".

as if an ex 18-year old Republican can't become a liberal. I did myself. In fact, I went from conservative Republican (close to dropping out of high school) to somewhat of an outright socialist at this point of my life (attending yale).

I guess that's the kind of thing you get when people don't 1. agree with you and 2. people like Todd create posts about some poster's thread on dKos as to build up walls and stir the pot of irrational hatred.

This of course after him stating the dangers of looking at Randy Rhodes comments as a direct reflection of Obama's beliefs because his website allows users to add meet-ups and such.

by alex100 2008-04-05 06:51AM | 0 recs
Re: Markos is a shameful figure

Whatever he has done in the past to build the Dem party he is undoing now. He is destroying it.

by doyenne49 2008-04-05 07:53AM | 0 recs
Re: Markos is a shameful figure

how so? I don't think you have a grip on rational reasoning.

he has what, advocated for Obama in recent months. He's advocated for following the DNC rules regarding FL and MI after his silly call to ignore the rules. He's advocated for Edwards and Foster and many other lower-level races (long before this site has done). He advocated for net neutrality and to stand firm on FISA. He's pushed against McCain (moreso then this site has done so to date). He advocated against the war. He's advocated against lobbyists.

He's hardly tearing the Democratic party down. Unless of course you believe that his supporting a candidate that isn't yours is "destroying it".

by alex100 2008-04-05 08:13AM | 0 recs
Re: Markos is a shameful figure

What other kind of reasoning is there?

by doyenne49 2008-04-05 08:35AM | 0 recs
Ben Smith was laughing at them today.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0 408/Obamas_web_conquest.html


The guiding ethos of many creators of the liberal blogosphere is fierce partisanship, a deliberate emphasis on keeping attention on the Republican enemy. There are occasional, deliberate internal struggles -- against Joe Lieberman, for instance, and for Donna Edwards. But writers like Markos of DailyKos also make a point of keeping their eyes on the general election prize.

But the extent to which, this cycle, the entire infrastructure of the online left has been co-opted by Obama supporters is really striking. For instance, while the Kos front page remains guided by that original ethos, the diaries are overwhelmingly pro-Obama, to the extent that a number of pro-Clinton bloggers have abandoned the site. (There's some suggestion, though I can't vouch for the stats, that the intramural conflict is turning off some readers, too.)

Today, the top recommended diary is devoted to about as straightforward, ideology-free primary warfare as you can imagine: It's an open thread devoted to scrutinizing Hillary Clinton's tax returns.

and it was gracious of ben to ignore kos' "hillary darkened obama's skin in her ad!" embarrassment of a post when characterizing the front page as not the problem, just the diaries.

he also linked to the parody thread, devoted to going through the clinton's dental records.

by campskunk 2008-04-04 08:19PM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

I think it's very telling...

No wonder Hillary is pushing hard to fundraise the last two days.

She earned $109 million and she wants people to scrape by and give her money, so she can pay Mark Penn his millions, and he can fly off to Colombia and push for Free Trade, to take away jobs from Americans?

by Jeff Y 2008-04-04 08:20PM | 0 recs
Stupid comment of the day...

Unless you meant it as snark.

by Swedie 2008-04-04 11:57PM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement
So you think Hillary should self fund her campaign, rather than relying on donations?
And whether people have to "scrape by" to give her donations is their business, but thanks for your "concern".
If you bothered to look at her tax returns, they are joint tax returns, the income of Hillary and Bill together. Senators don't make $15 million a year, last time I checked.
by skohayes 2008-04-05 06:01AM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

You would really think that, in a post about another site's alleged derangement the commenters decrying said derangement would take some modicum of care to make sure their own comments weren't deranged. Alas.

by Addison 2008-04-04 08:25PM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

I think people are finally starting to see why a lot of us stopped posting at dailyKos.  I'm not going to say I suddenly feel a bit vindicated but...

:o)

by alegre 2008-04-04 08:43PM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

Let's not get too puffed up there, alegre. Okay?

You're GBCW cruel world, Writer's Strike diary sure got you all kinds of MSM exposure, but at what cost to our party?

I'm an old DKos member, but like many others was already reading more elsewhere before your now famous diary.

Might have been better had you simply moved your writing over to MYDD without giving the MSM the major headline they are now exploiting to characterize our party as "more" or "just as" fractionalized as the Republican party.

You remember Mary Scott O'Conner's rise and fall don't you? Bad role model for a better writer like yourself.

by RickWn 2008-04-04 09:58PM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

Oh yes, alegre has clearly irrevocably damaged the party. The consequences will be truly vast. Never shall we recover. A blow has been struck, and its effects will be devastating and far-reaching, for years to come. No doubt about it. Damn alegre, damn the strikers, and damn the rest of us Clinton supporters for splitting the Democratic party.

But most importantly, god damn Hillary Clinton. You know, just because.

by sricki 2008-04-04 10:58PM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

That's right asshat, it's blowholes like you who are going to vote for Mr 100 years in Iraq, bomb bomb Iran if your little Hillary doesn't get crowned queen of the party...that kind of stupidity speaks for itsself.

by Jeff Y 2008-04-04 11:04PM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

Hm, I don't recall ever saying I'd vote for McCain. In fact, I'm pretty sure I've stressed that I won't do that numerous times over the past few months. Good to know I'm a stupid asshat, though. Thanks for that. You're very clever.

Have you stopped taking your medication, Jeff? I think you need to calm down a bit.

by sricki 2008-04-04 11:09PM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

I love coming over here and listening to morons who still support someone (Hillary) who would already would have been forced to drop out of this race a LONG time ago if her name wasn't "Clinton".

I like watching you weenies twist and contort common sense into your own little feel good world.

I'd sure like to try some of the shit you're smoking sricki because nuts like you are insane.

by Jeff Y 2008-04-04 11:17PM | 0 recs
Wow. Do you know what an antipsychotic is, Jeff?

If you don't, you should really look into it. I've got one word for you: Clozapine. Ask for it by name.

by sricki 2008-04-04 11:23PM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement
"Forced" to drop out when she's less than 1% behind in popular votes, and 3% behind in delegates?
IF Obama is such a great candidate, why isn't he decisively beating her?
Jeff, will you vote for Hillary if she wins the nomination?
by skohayes 2008-04-05 06:05AM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

Yes, you need medication, Jeff, and soon. You are twisted and hurt inside. You are unwell. You are filled with rage. A typical Obama supporter.

by doyenne49 2008-04-05 07:55AM | 0 recs
lol, that was poetic man

"nuts like you are insane".  I'll have to remember that snappy answer for the future.  = )

by TeresaINPennsylvania 2008-04-05 12:36PM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

I'm glad you're gone, turncoat...and please don't come back after Hillary loses...

by Jeff Y 2008-04-04 10:09PM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

Turncoat, gotta love it. A closet Stalinist, you are. prepare the show trials! Dailykos will purge the turncoats!

by doyenne49 2008-04-05 07:55AM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

Speaking as an Obama supporter, I think you're way out of line here.  I will gladly welcome Alegre (and all who agree with her) back to DKos once the nomination is decided and will work with the, to take back the Presidency and the Constitution.  I'll do this no matter who wins, even though I don't think it's in doubt.

by Major Danby 2008-04-05 02:20PM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

Yeah, it was so nice of Joe Lieberman Democrats like you (alegre) who decided to go on FOX NEWS to support your cheerleading for Hillary ...

You're the worst piece of crap that I've run into during this whole primary season and that's saying alot.

:o)

by Jeff Y 2008-04-04 10:33PM | 0 recs
Re: Troll Rating a Voice of Reason

That this comment was troll-rated speaks volumes about the rater.  

by creeper1014 2008-04-05 07:05AM | 0 recs
Re: Troll Rating a Voice of Reason

Haha. You had JUST troll-rated my innocuous comment (calling out deranged people of all stripes) which is directly above this one. What hypocrisy! What a lack of self-awareness!

by Addison 2008-04-05 11:07AM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

Well, I wouldn't puff up too much with self-congratulations.  Your posts contribute as much to the posinous well as many, only yours are in support of Clinton whereas others opposite are in support of Obama.

There have been few, but I note growing, voices who believe that reconciliation and unity are in dire need, if only to ensre that the party (which is in no danger of being torn asunder as some Cassandras cry) is triumphant against the unfortunate, if not disdainful, choice of McCain and whatever right-winger he selects to shore up his base.  

There is and will be plenty of shame to go around for the vitriolic and damaging comments of zealous supporters who abandoned reason in favor of victory at any cost.  That shame is to be shared by those on both sides.  

by LarsThorwald 2008-04-05 12:31PM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

Jesus.

HOW IS THIS sorry how is this any different than what went out here when Obama's returns went up? There were many diaries where people poured through the pdfs and posted their thoughts.

This is different, and maybe a bit louder because
a) There was anticipation
b) It was an issue once she started self-financing, as it should be
c) It's so much more than Obamas, and so much more than anyone thought
d) The Hillaryites already did this to Obamas, so there was a sense of rivalry
and, most importantly
e) She made an issue of tax returns with Lazio. She made an issue of it with Obama (right before he released his), and then she was very reluctant to release hers. The excuses were weak -- people in the habit of earning tens of millions a year have some pretty reliable accountants. It gave a stench of cover up -- again since she made Lazio's release an issue. Context.

Seriously, if you don't like what you see at DailyKos, look in a mirror sometimes. It may have been smaller, and went unnoticed by Politico, but there is no shortage of equally craven behavior here.

by Lettuce 2008-04-04 09:12PM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

This is an encouraging post. It is great to see non-Hillary supporters beginning to draw the line. Hopefully this will continue.

by LadyEagle 2008-04-04 09:18PM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

Just to provide a voice of reason - I support Obama and spend my time over at DKos, and I thought the open thread for taxes was dumb.  I think it just got on the rec-list when there weren't many competing diaries and then just stayed up there due to inertia.  Half the comments in the diary were saying that the diary was dumb and should be taken down.

by barath 2008-04-04 09:20PM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

Strange that some are saying she should spend her own money for the campaign and if she did they would accuse her of trying to buy the election.

"A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."
Anonymous.

by LadyEagle 2008-04-04 09:20PM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

I SO don't give a damn about the Clintons' tax returns. Hopefully by Monday some new distraction will come along.

by Kobi 2008-04-04 09:29PM | 0 recs
It's called &quot;vetting&quot;

and you can be damn sure that the GOP would do it if she somehow won.  Furthermore, it fits with both what Hillary says is an appropriate action to be taken during the primary season and, to the extent it seems "tough," with what Bill says a candidate for the Presidency should have to expect.  (I believe he called it "clipping," using the football metaphor.)  Hillary has not yet been fully vetted.  So here goes.

Of course, it wouldn't have to happen if she weren't still in the race, but she is.

by Major Danby 2008-04-04 09:41PM | 0 recs
Re: It's called &quot;vetting&quot;

I'm sorry, MD, but that diary went way past "vetting".  It was an organized "let's trash Hillary" party.  

How come it's okay to "vet" HRC's tax returns but not okay to "vet" Obama's racist church membership?   Why is it alright to condemn HRC for an inaccurate account of a trip to Tuzla but not Obama for a sub rosa call to the Canadians?

I have no problem with vetting.  I have serious issues with full-fledged witch hunts.

by creeper1014 2008-04-05 07:15AM | 0 recs
Re: It's called &quot;vetting&quot;

If the diaries was calling for making things up, or for painting things in the most unfavorable light, then you may have a point.  I didn't read it closely, not having time to get involved, but that was not my sense of it.  It was about collecting information in the expectation that some of it may be legitimately pose problems.  That's vetting, not witch-hunting.  It's like looking at her voting record and her contributors -- all of which I plan to do to John McCain.

As for "vetting" Obama's "racist church membership": (1) I don't think there's much basis to call the church racist, and (2) I think that largely because Obama's supporters have done exactly what you decry, found very little, and if there were more I trust you'd be trumpeting it.  See -- vetting works?

As for the "sub rosa" Goolsbee call to the Canadians -- that was vetting and found to be a pile of moose crap.  The charge itself was vetted and didn't survive.

by Major Danby 2008-04-05 02:25PM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

There are plenty of fanatics on both DK and MyDD.  All I can say is that it's ridiculous for either side to judge a candidate by a small percentage of their supporters who believe that supporting their candidate means tearing the other candidates apart.  Let's "Get Real" and start focusing on the real enemy: the GOP and John McCain.

by brathor 2008-04-04 09:59PM | 0 recs
You can't do anything if you don't win.

Win first, then be the change that you seek.

by Priest Valon 2008-04-04 10:19PM | 0 recs
Amen

As an Obama supporter who frequents the dailykos, I agree wholeheartedly. There's no crime in earning millions, and the anti-Clinton animus is over the top.

Let's keep it civil -- on both sides.

by JD Lasica 2008-04-04 10:43PM | 0 recs
Re: Amen

I would add, let's keep it honest on both sides as well.

I admit that I miss the science, bird watching, gardening, etc. diaries on the Big Orange but cannot bear going over there to find them any more. I think what happened to me may have happened to a lot of HRC supporters: The venom and dishonesty of the band of fanatics that have taken over on dKos caused me to actively dislike the candidate they shill for. I had to get away from them in order to see Obama for himself again, to regain respect for him, uncolored by the histrionics of his supporters.

If they meant to change minds by their behavior, they did-- but not in the way they intended. In fact, I came to support HRC in the process of doing independent research to factually respond to some of the Hillary haters. Prior to that, I hoped for Gore or Clark, then moved tentatively to Dodd (with a decided lean toward Edwards.) Hillary was not on my radar at the time.

I'll vote for Obama if he is the nominee, but not with any particular enthusiasm. It kind of unnerves me to realize that if I had not escaped from the Big Orange in time I might have succumbed to the temptation to not vote at all rather than vote for him. That would be tragic for our country, and I SOOOOOO encourage those who are following that line to reconsider!

Love your country, people, love the Constitution and act to save it by voting Democratic in November!!!

by Swedie 2008-04-05 12:22AM | 0 recs
Re: Amen

I would have believed that, but you post here and you didnt call for honesty here, meaning that you assume THIS place is more honest then daily kos?

yeah.....

by TruthMatters 2008-04-05 04:51AM | 0 recs
Re: Amen

Um, hello? I said:

I would add, let's keep it honest on both sides as well.

In case that isn't clear enough, let me expand it further:

Let's keep it honest among all posters/commenters on all lefty blogs among all parties regardless of which blogs you choose to read or contribute to. Including this one and including myself.

In case you still don't get it, let me try to be even MORE clear:

Let's keep it honest in


  • MyDD

  • DailyKos

  • Firedoglake

  • Atrios

  • LeftyBlogs

  • Digby

  • Talking Points Memo

  • JuanCole...

  • and all other liberal blogs not listed herein.

Don't be so eager to rush to judgment, please.

by Swedie 2008-04-05 07:56AM | 0 recs
Opposite effect

It would appear that Todd's post has had the opposite of its intended effect.  The news is that the dkos posters had created a "mothership" diary to pore over the Clinton tax return documents in search of dirt to slime Hillary with.  Todd's intent may have been to draw attention to the existence of moderating voices among the Obama supporters at dkos who were distasteful of te exercise, but that's not the message that's been received.

Such irony.

by DaveOinSF 2008-04-04 10:46PM | 0 recs
Re: Opposite effects....

Todd's intent may have been to draw attention to the existence of moderating voices among the Obama supporters at dkos who were distasteful of te exercise, but that's not the message that's been received.

Fair point. However, when it becomes "news" that there are a few reasonable voices amidst a frenzy of obsessive hate-mongering, then of course, the irony is that you have missed the point.

by Tennessean 2008-04-05 05:15AM | 0 recs
Re: Opposite effects....

I don't know why you decided to bring me into this.  I'm just making an observation - that Todd's post seems to have had the opposite it's intended effect - and you make an excellent argument as to why that is the case.  I'm not criticizing, just marvelling at the irony.  Don't drag me into this.

by DaveOinSF 2008-04-05 07:39AM | 0 recs
The nature of 'obsession'

Some people have an 'obsession' about the  release of the Clintons' tax returns.

Some people on MyDD have an 'obsession' about the latest happenings at dailykos.

The trick for us all  (a very hard trick) is to be as aware of our  own 'obsessions' as other people's 'obsessions'.

by My Ob 2008-04-05 03:38AM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

People are going crazy at bringing Hillary down.
Hillary was right, he is like Rocky.

It's like the Rocky movie.
No matter now much Apollo Creed beat up on Rocky, Rocky wouldn't go down.  Even though Rocky lost, he won because he was the better person.

This obsession to bring the Clintons down is broaching on insanity.  And pathetic too.

by stefystef 2008-04-05 04:43AM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

It's not "broaching on insanity," it is certifiable and has been for a very long time. I finally just gave up--because feeding the beast at DailyKos just gives it sustenance. I can, at the very least, not participate in the obsession, the hatred, and the depravity; I can--in essence--not feed the beast.

And that is what I have chosen to do. Leave. Don't read it. Don't participate in it. Don't give it sustenance.

Markos sets the tone and the structure of comment at his blog. Unfortunately, he continues to set a tone of obsessive hatred for Hillary Clinton. He could alter the course of the conversation if he chose to; yet he allows it to go on, and frequently contributes to it on the front page with contemptuous diatribes that are gross distortions and barely concealed rage at Hillary Clinton. The Kossack Kommunity takes its cues from Markos. I see them now as little jack-booted thugs, marching all around the site, troll-rating and hide-rating the perceived threats, to control the discourse they believe Markos supports. And, every day, they prove Joe Klein more and more right about them. They are extremists, and they are out of control at DKos. It's very sad to see, but I can say that I have quit participating in the frenzy there, after months and months of periodically trying to discuss and debate using civility and reason. It doesn't work against the blogswarm of insanity. Let them all feed on each other in a frenzy of hate. Thankfully, the rest of the progressive community is beginning to see the Kossack Kommunity for what they have now become. And, they are "embarrassed" by it.

by Tennessean 2008-04-05 05:07AM | 0 recs
Markos'[ obsessive hatred?

Can you point to any examples that demonstrate your claim?

by Quarterbackjoe 2008-04-05 08:01AM | 0 recs
90 percent

of the diaries and posts at dkos.com should do it.  Go read.

by TeresaINPennsylvania 2008-04-05 12:47PM | 0 recs
Re: 90 percent

Markos is responsible for everything that gets posted at DKos? That wasn't true when you were there full time, was it?

by Quarterbackjoe 2008-04-06 07:33PM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

Gosh.  Going over a political opponent's tax returns with a fine-toothed comb, which is standard oppositional research that would certainly be done by Republicans if Hillary were on the ticket, is certifiable, obsessiveness, hatred, derangement.

Give me a break.  It's vetting, and Hillary and Bill are on record in favor of it.

by Major Danby 2008-04-05 03:03PM | 0 recs
DailyKos didn't jump the shark yesterday.

That happened weeks ago, and it started months ago. A lot of Obama supporters were just too blinded by their hero worship to see it. Nice to know that some of them are starting to see why many of us would feel justified in denying them their fondest dream, even if we cut off our nose to spite our face. Many of Obama's supporters have been so bullying and obnoxious, and Obama himself so arrogant and dismissive, it is going to be a bitter pill to swallow when it comes time to pull that lever for him in November. The thought of a McSame presidency may not be enough to scare a lot of them into helping/voting for Obama in November unless their is some serious fence mending between now and then. The few that are coming around now may be too little, too late. A lot of them seem to still be busy burning bridges as fast as they can, and there would be some small measure of satisfaction in watching them eat a little crow.

by georgiapeach 2008-04-05 04:52AM | 0 recs
Re: DailyKos didn't jump the shark yesterday.

Obama's not so different from Bush in his tactics: rigidly control the message by stonewalling the media, lay waste to your opponent through surrogates while pretending to be above it all, encourage a blind hero-worship among the faithful, manipulate the voting process in your favor. Ugh.

by doyenne49 2008-04-05 07:59AM | 0 recs
Re: DailyKos didn't jump the shark yesterday.

Maybe that's why so many Obama supporters remind me of the Bush/Cheney '04 people.

by georgiapeach 2008-04-05 03:56PM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

Great diary and it needed saying.  I am a bigtime lurker, sometime commenter on DK (and an enthusiastic Obama supporter ), and I must say that when I saw the aforementioned diaries I gave them a big bodyswerve, so I never got to see some of the voices of reason that you reprinted here, so thanks for that.

I see that Sen. Clinton has finally released the returns and I don't see what the big deal is.  Some of the fringe elements are reacting like it's chum in the water.  I expected them to be rich, I have no problem with them being rich, most of the people who govern us are already rich, or become rich once they leave the highest office in the land.  Hopefully this will die quickly to be replaced by the next frenzy du jour.

by boondoggle 2008-04-05 04:55AM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

Remember in elementary and middle school where periodially there would be a proliferation of "I hate so and so clubs," dedicated to the  concentrated dispising of one targeted person or another? And every utterance, every action of the target was mined for ANYTHING that could be construed as negative or fodder for ridicule. That's what BOTH DKos and this site remind me of far too often.

I watch as posters goad each other into more and more extreme expressions of distaste and loathing..."This is why I hate her/him"..."I hate her/him for that as well but I also hate him/her because...."   And on and on.  And remember there are probably neo-con provocateurs who visit these sites just to do a bit of the aforementioned goading.  I'll bet they snicker at how easy it is.

Can we grow up?  Can we finally leave middle school?  It would be so good for us.

by oldbattleaxe 2008-04-05 04:55AM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement
Bill made $25 mil off his Book..
They will be selling Bush's for 5 cents on Amazon.
Although if he wrote it himself I would read it for his inventin' words and stuff.
by nogo war 2008-04-05 04:59AM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement
OT, but...
makes you wonder what his speaking fee is going to be.  $1.95?
by creeper1014 2008-04-05 07:24AM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

I gotta agree with you 100%. (Well, except the WASP aversion about talking about money... I have the former union organizer's belief that people should talk about it...  The whole secrecy of money and politics always baffles me).  It goes back to the whole, you are rich and you want to do something for working people, what a hypocrite... I have seen it used against Edwards, Michael Moore, and I sure someone said it about FDR.

I guess I never took most Kos diaries seriously even before the election, so it never bothered me that much (also I was never for Clinton, so that's probably a blindspot for me)

I feel that its similiar now to a sports rivalary.  People are invested in their candidates, they want their team to win, which means that any bad news on the other side is celebrated.  And people, in their passion, can lose their senses.  I want the Red Sox to beat the yankees, but I don't want a fastball thrown at someones' face.

by labor nrrd 2008-04-05 05:00AM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

The tone of the Clinton haters reminds me of the prepubescent bullying of the anti-Kerry repugs in 2004. I've had to remind myself to support Obama if he wins the nomination despite them. I resent this since, as a 27-year registered Democrat, I've ALWAYS supported any less-than-perfect Democratic presidential nominee. I believe that Clinton would be 3x the president Obama would be, but I also believe Obama would be 8x the president McCain would be. Haven't these Clinton detractors heard anything about honey and flies?

by jerseygirl 2008-04-05 05:07AM | 0 recs
Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

This all seems very silly. Blogs attract whack jobs of every persuasion. The bizarre fringe comes with blogging. Most of the fine  people on this site (whatever disappointment they feel) will go and vote Dem in November rather than elect a Republican Beelzebub who will end civilization and turn the earth to salt (that's me being ironic).

As for the Clintons tax returns, it is no surprise that becoming filthy rich was in the cards for them. Bill always said his intent was to make money. What we should be asking questions about is Penn -- that Clinton relies on him as her main strategist is the real scandal.  the Columbia affair is just one more example of the blinders she wears regarding true working class issues.

by NYWoman 2008-04-05 05:12AM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

It is one thing to point out the flaws of a progressive blog that is supporting one candidate over another. But this is different. We have 2 blogs in particular that I used to visit frequently, Huff Post and Kos. I beleived in what they said they stood for. They don't. I have been banned for commenting at both sites because I'm supporting Hillary Clinton. I have never used a racial slur or anything even close to what I see them declare and Senator Clinton. But since I've always stated facts, I beleive that is why I've been banned. They can't handle the truth. Believe me, Clinton has handled Obama with kid gloves. She has been more than fair. I urge her to go after him harder. Where are his records from his time in the state legislature and Senate? What else is he hiding? Why is he fighting so hard against allowing our votes in Florida to count. Its like the Clinton say, He can't win the GE. If Florida Democrats are left out, the Democrats can forget the General Election and start concentrating on the next cycle. Its the local elections that I worry about too. The so-called down-ticket Dems that are gonna lose out.

by glennmcgahee 2008-04-05 05:58AM | 0 recs
Puhleeze-Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

You bloggers are full of each sh*t.  MyDD is just as insane, and nasty as KOS.  The Obama diaries are just as nasty here as any Clinton diarie on Kos.

Neither is the champion of truth, all you are are champions of destroying the democratic party--if you really had that much influence, but you don't.  You just want to be right and will post and say anything that supports your point of view.

Which is a shame because I read these blogs to gain a wider perspective and to read an exchange of ideas. Now all of these sites have turned into a political paintball fight.

by susu1969 2008-04-05 06:07AM | 0 recs
Re: Puhleeze-Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangeme

Troll-rated for profanity, meanness and for adding nothing of substance to the discussion.

by creeper1014 2008-04-05 07:27AM | 0 recs
Re: Puhleeze-Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangeme

Profanity aside, the underlying point is accurate.  The non-front page diaries here are just as obsessive and polarized as those at dKos.

by SKI 2008-04-05 09:35AM | 0 recs
Re: Puhleeze-Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangeme

sorry guys, i forgot about the profanity thing. i thought the asterisk was sufficient,--sorry if i offended anybody.

Creeper you are more of a troll than me, you have posted here almost 5 times with one line zingers.  You may not agree with me, but rating me a troll for profanity I accept, but troll rating me for not saying anything of substance is wrong.

by susu1969 2008-04-05 10:10AM | 0 recs
Re: Puhleeze-Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangeme

sorry guys, i forgot about the profanity thing. i thought the asterisk was sufficient,--sorry if i offended anybody.

Creeper you are more of a troll than me, you have posted here almost 5 times with one line zingers.  You may not agree with me, but rating me a troll for profanity I accept, but troll rating me for not saying anything of substance is wrong.

by susu1969 2008-04-05 10:11AM | 0 recs
Re: Puhleeze-Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangeme

I find this whole "troll" thing laughable.  As a conservative, I've been banned or considered a "troll" just for disagreeing.  If someone is being abusive or practicing excessive name calling, then they should be banned.  I've been banned for not falling in line with the blog.

It seems that freedom of speech on the liberal blogs sometimes takes a back seat. So far, MYDD has not banned me which I respect.  Unless of course the purpose of a left-leaning blog is an exclusive club where the only disagreement is how far left you can go.

by KensUSA 2008-04-05 03:59PM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

This is sort of a strange diary coming on the heels of the one in which Todd noted that Obama did not "own" the statements of supporters on his open website, just as neither MyDD nor DailyKos "own" the comments on those sites.  I realize that the point of this diary is to actually affirm that viewpoint, but it doesn't really come across that way.  In any event, inferring collective intent or tarring the users at either site based on some of the diaries is absurd, especially when you consider that the number of people who visit DailyKos every day is in the hundreds of thousands.  Bill O'Reilly pioneered this form of attack and it really has no place in Democratic circles.

On a more substantive note, McCain would certainly have made an issue about Clinton's taxes if she had not disclosed them during the primary.  At the debate where this came up, before the TX and OH primaries, Clinton first attempted to argue that she was entitled to disclose them after the nomination, during the general election, purportedly in accordance with some sort of Democratic precedent.  Russert pressed her on that issue and she then switched gears and agreed to release them in April.  Her reluctance to disclose years'-worth of taxes certainly created a suspicion that there was something in them that she wanted to conceal, at least until the nomination was sewn up.  That she was forced to disclose her taxes earlier than her initial timetable can only be viewed as a positive, if she becomes the nominee.

by rfahey22 2008-04-05 06:21AM | 0 recs
Eh.

Let's start from the assumption that yes, that diary on DKos was over the top in some ways. Add into that the correlated assumption that the self-segregation of the blogosphere into pro and anti camps escalates the vitriol further, because moderating voices get shouted down.

So what do things look like in what I'll call the Hillarysphere, especially as her chances to win this thing narrow further and further?

We find diaries, here and on No Quarter, that proclaim that the Randi Rhodes incident happened at an Obama fundraiser. It's not true, and the diaries and comments are still there, in many cases enthusiastically recommended. The underlying "evidence", that there was a page for the event on Obama's SocNet site, is laughable to anyone who has even a vague inkling on how the political web works.

There was a recommended diary claiming that Obama's $96 donation average was indicative of his supporters' elite status. The fun part is that $96 is actually a low average, and that Hillary relies far more on maxed-out donors than does Obama. This was pointed out to the diarist, by myself and others, with supporting figures. The diary was not updated or corrected, and shot up the list after those points had been made and documented.

And let's not even talk about the 9/11-Obama-Wright video diary, the Obama-is-George-Wallace diary, or the other effort that compares his supporters to the Hitler Youth. Every single one of those made it to the rec list. For all the gratuitous, insulting chatter about "cultists" and "incense burners", I'm not aware that the entire DKos rec list was ever completely saturated with anti-Hillary or pro-Obama pieces.

Then, there's Hillaryis44.org, probably the most hateful anti-candidate site on the web. Here's a sample from what's on their front page right now, quoting an out-and-out racist, approvingly.

What about Barack Obama? Why couldn't he beat the Republican nominee?

"The race thing," interjected her colleague Daniel Kirner, 52, from Tullytown.

"I mean, a president named Barack?" agreed Ms. Vizzini.

It doesn't get clearer than that. Another snippet:

Increasingly, it becomes obvious to the sentient that Obama is a flim flam man. Obama, like all flim flam con artists is also a methodical and repetitive liar.

Or this, from the second page:

Let's discuss politically Dumb White People and their embarrassing ways, Progressive Barack Obama Osama Bin Laden, and flim flam artist and friend to bigots and slumlords - Barack Obama and his latest batch of lies and race baiting.

Got that? Barack Obama is Osama bin Laden, according to one of the most trafficked Hillary sites. When I checked the comment thread, there was not a peep of dissent from that.

So yes, there are some voices of reason, many of which seem to belong to people who started out supporting candidates other than the two remaining. But there seem to be fewer of them on the side of Hillary supporters, and further, there seem to be fewer of them every day.

by MBNYC 2008-04-05 06:24AM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

stopped reading this thread but just wanted to state that this is about the shittiest thread I've seen to date.

I've seen threads where the info was just ridiculous (i.e. Clinton can claim a "victory" if she keeps Obama under 60%) but this thread, it has no point but to fan the flames of hatred and put down another liberal blog in the worst way possible.

I understand taking a critical approach to what Markos might say but by attacking an entire community by some cracked-out comment, we elevate cracked-out comments to represent an entire group and more dangerously, we bring down the debate instead of elevate it.

I have to say Todd, I've seen many poor posts from you since Hillary started her downward spiral but this one is pointless and without an upside.

by alex100 2008-04-05 06:59AM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

This was not some "cracked-out comment".  It was a rec'd diary.  Do you know the difference?

by creeper1014 2008-04-05 07:32AM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

recommended diary in the regard that people think it necessary to look through her tax records? whatever. I'm sure you'd join the bandwagon or support it if the name on those tax forms was John McCain.

Personally, I don't care about her tax forms but my point stands.

Todd's post does little to heighten the debate.

by alex100 2008-04-05 08:21AM | 0 recs
To be fair

the majority of commenters in the original thread thought it was an awful idea, and suggested that the vultures circling over the release of the tax returns were way out of line.

by Quarterbackjoe 2008-04-05 07:01AM | 0 recs
To be fair

the majority of commenters in the original thread thought it was an awful idea, and suggested that the vultures circling over the release of the tax returns were way out of line.

by Quarterbackjoe 2008-04-05 07:01AM | 0 recs
I saw that yesterday, it really was mean-spirited

However, I don't see it on the front page of DKos anymore, and to their credit, I noticed that a lot of commenters seemed to lose interest when it was clear what the intent was.

I for one take this as a good sign that maybe the ugly "gotcha" stuff is waning. Why give the MSM vultures any more ammunition to hurt the Dems' chances in November. Do we really want the interviews, commentaries, and debates to be about "he said" and "she said" instead of how each candidate will work to get the country out of this awful mess?

by professor 2008-04-05 07:12AM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

I didn't realize that others would be as angry about this Hillary tax return witch hunt as I am.  I am glad to see that even Obama supporters are upset with the tactic.

Did anybody doubt that Bill and Hillary Clinton are rich?

That's the beauty of what the Democratic Party stands for.  Everybody wants to be rich, and it is entirely possible in this country to make a lot of money.  But Democrats understand that someone will always have to mop the floors and clean the toilets and they should not be left behind.

Rich people (and middle class, of course) pay taxes so that a certain level of human dignity can exist for all people in this country.  Bill and Hillary Clinton have not ever forgotten the plight that can exist for people in this country and they have consistently (nobody agrees with all politicians all the time) espoused public policies that have made life better for a lot of Americans.

Normally spin can be really irritating, but I think the fact that the Clintons have paid over $33M in taxes OUT OF the $109M gross they have earned.  And a total of roughly 40% of all of their earnings has been paid out in taxes and to charities.

I wholeheartedly thank the Clintons for putting this out there for all to see.  We all knew they were rich, but now we can see that they REPORT a lot of income and PAY a lot of taxes.  And they truly walk the walk as it relates to charitable giving.

by jaydub799 2008-04-05 09:00AM | 0 recs
Re: Voices Of Reason Amidst The Derangement

Huzzah!  One of my quotes from DailyKos made the front page at MyDD!

The rancor has grown, and in doing so has grown unseemly.  and yet I believe there remains much hope for a reconciliation when all who care for their country face the choice between an increasingly puzzling and concerning McCain (he wasn't really aware of the importance of King?  Really?) against a far superior choice of either Clinton or Obama.

by LarsThorwald 2008-04-05 12:26PM | 0 recs
Obama supporter who agrees

This is a non-issue and Obama supporters shouldn't pay much attention to this.  We all need to spend 90% of our energy against McCain and 10% promoting our candidate and 0% undermining the other candidate.  But this goes to HRC people, too.  Stop fighting over Michigan and Florida.  Stop saying that Obama can't win or Wright is a racist, etc., etc., etc.

by drjk 2008-04-05 03:10PM | 0 recs

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