Post Debate Thread

Although it was somewhat redeemed in the final half hour, I feel like taking a shower after that debate. It was tabloid hour on ABC, and certainly Obama did get the bulk of the more disgusting questions. Check out this post over at over 4,000 comments, the bulk of which seem to just rip ABC.

As for the candidates' performances, neither was particularly inspiring and neither had his or her best night, although Obama did get plenty of opportunities to plead for an end to the issues of distraction and division and to call for a new style of politics and seemed to be the conscience of the audience as he called out the moderators. I think Clinton was stronger during the last half hour but not enough to tip the balance in her direction; certainly not enough for this to be a game changer.

It would almost be a shame for this to be the last debate, to go out on such a poor note.

What did you think?

Update [2008-4-16 22:45:18 by Todd Beeton]:I gotta think Ben Smith is onto something:

How much money will Obama raise off his supporters' perception that this debate was unfair?

Update [2008-4-16 22:54:57 by Todd Beeton]:And this tidbit from Chris Bowers, who's also here:

It appears that live focus group polling of undecideds favored Obama during the first round of questions that basically was a series of hit-jobs against him, while Clinton polled better in the focus group when it shifted to issues in the second half. Hmmm... perhaps her campaign should learn something from that.


Tags: philadelphia debate (all tags)



Re: Post Debate Thread

I sense that Obama's supporters will be in an uproar over the questioning tonight.

Kind of like how Hillary fans felt in several of the previous debates.

by mjc888 2008-04-16 06:08PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

I hope the entire Democratic party is in an uproar over this.  Both candidates deserved more, and more importantly, WE deserved more.

by RussTC3 2008-04-16 06:22PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

Agree!  The reviews are in - and none are good.  ABC ought to be ashamed.

by JulieinVT 2008-04-17 02:27AM | 0 recs
Loser ABC tent/article/2008/04/17/AR2008041700013. html


In Pa. Debate, The Clear Loser Is ABC

It was another step downward for network news -- in particular ABC News, which hosted the debate from Philadelphia and whose usually dependable anchors, Charlie Gibson and George Stephanopoulos, turned in shoddy, despicable performances.

For the first 52 minutes of the two-hour, commercial-crammed show, Gibson and Stephanopoulos dwelled entirely on specious and gossipy trivia that already has been hashed and rehashed, in the hope of getting the candidates to claw at one another over disputes that are no longer news. Some were barely news to begin with.

Obama was right on the money when he complained about the campaign being bogged down in media-driven inanities and obsessiveness over any misstatement a candidate might make along the way, whether in a speech or while being eavesdropped upon by the opposition. The tactic has been to "take one statement and beat it to death," he said.

At the end, Gibson pompously thanked the candidates -- or was he really patting himself on the back? -- for "what I think has been a fascinating debate." He's entitled to his opinion, but the most fascinating aspect was waiting to see how low he and Stephanopoulos would go, and then being appalled at the answer.

by dearreader 2008-04-17 02:07AM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

The questions were awful gotcha questions, but Obama acted as if he could never have expected them. He seemed indecisive, petulant, peevish, and unnerved. Not good for him. Maybe he spends too much time in the bubble of his fans' adulation....

by doyenne49 2008-04-17 04:17AM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

Actually, it probably shows why a bazillion debates are unnecessary.  They're only as good as the "journalists" who moderate them.

by rfahey22 2008-04-16 06:08PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

This was absolutely pathetic.  ABC News should be ashamed for asking such bs questions and taking such a long time to get to policy questions.  

I heard the first part on the radio as I was coming home from an event and in-between the segments, the news announcer said that "There was no knock out." If this holds as the frame, well, the race is not affected.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-16 06:09PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

I don't know....Hillary tends to perform a bit better in confrontational settings, and I feel this showed tonight.

Obama seemed a bit off his game.  I don't think he was ready to get such hard-hitting questions.  Did he smile once?

Keep in mind that this debate was basically for PA.  I don't think it will change the national picture much, but certainly could swing those undecideds in PA one way or another.

I say that Clinton goes up a few percentage points.

by mjc888 2008-04-16 06:13PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

I'm talking about the media frame, which has an impact on people who didn't watch the debate but also some who did.

The Page, which is very influential in the world of political journalism, put out its debate grades:
Mark Halperin's overall grades: Obama B+, Clinton B.

So looks like no knock-out.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-16 06:21PM | 0 recs
Ambinder: Obama Couldn't Have Been Worse

The Page, which is very influential in the world of political journalism...

Please don't make me laugh. Let's look at Marc Ambinder:

Keeping the score card, there's no way Obama could fared worse. Nearly 45 minutes of relentless political scrutiny from the ABC anchors and from Hillary Clinton, followed by an issues-and-answers session in which his anger carried over and sort of neutered him.

by KnowVox 2008-04-16 06:30PM | 0 recs
Re: Ambinder: Obama Couldn't Have Been Worse

Well, if you want to have a debate about whether The Page or Marc Ambinder is more influential, go ahead. I don't know how to get page stats -- perhaps you do, and if so, please look them up.

But I don know that Halperin of The Page was just on CNN and does a lot of pundit appearances while I've never seen Ambinder.  So this implies to me that Halperin and the Page have a bigger impact on the media narrative.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-16 06:38PM | 0 recs
Re: Ambinder: Obama Couldn't Have Been Worse

The point is your questionable characterization of Halperin as a "very influential in the world of political journalism."  Lots of pundits are quoted on lots of shows. By your standard, O'Rielly would be "very influential in the world of political journalism."

by KnowVox 2008-04-16 06:50PM | 0 recs
Re: Ambinder: Obama Couldn't Have Been Worse

Halperin is a douchebag!!!

by chewie5656 2008-04-16 07:25PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

Did I watch the same debate?  Obama was weak and boring.  Hillary had answers on her fingertips, confidence, a plan for everything and deep knowledge.  She was an A- and Obama a C+.  Obama looked flustered at times.  If I were their professor, there would be no doubt that Hillary was the superior candidate.

by tiffany 2008-04-16 06:30PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

LOL Hillary sounded like a freaking desperate loser and lost any chance of EVER getting the black vote back.

She was WAY, WAY over the line on that wright stuff

by CaptMorgan 2008-04-16 06:37PM | 0 recs
Shifty eyes

Someone should have coached Hillary to ignore the people in the balcony.  She kept looking around while speaking and it was very distracting.  I thought Obama looked and acted more presidential.

by xtrarich 2008-04-16 06:46PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

Word.Listen sports fans, at this point in the campaign Obama is , you know, kneeling on the ball.Tradition and decency dictates that the game is  over when the opposing quarterback is kneeling on the ball,yet the Hillary campaign has decided to try and sack the QB anyway.Sigh.

by tommy 2008-04-16 10:29PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

I guess it depends on whether voters care about that crap or they care more about issues.  As we know from recent polling, HRC has been hurt from the view that she is too negative, so I think that when the questions encourage her to go negative, I think that's bad for her.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-16 06:40PM | 0 recs
Now that you mention it, I agree ;-)

Hillary took less damage than Obama by my reckoning. His answers were too long and evasive at times. Hers were also sometimes hard to listen to, but not as bad as his.

However, this seemed less like a debate than an episode of Jerry Springer, so I'm not sure how relevant either person's performance tonight is to anybody trying to choose a President.

by professor 2008-04-16 09:03PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

Has there actually been a debate this cycle that has given any advantage to either (or any) candidate?  I can't think of one that really affected any of the primaries.

by rfahey22 2008-04-16 06:23PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

that drivers license stuff was at a debate..

i dont think there have been many pivot points across the whole season. wiggle left, wiggle right.

by hctb 2008-04-16 06:25PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

I wouldn't be surprised if Obama gets a sympathy bounce in PA for this. I felt like a Clinton supporter watching the NH assault on her. She looked weak and chastened. But people in the middle knew that it was the nasty gang-up by Obama, Edwards and the moderators that hurt her. So they rallied to her defense. It was a game changer in NH. I don't see anybody watching this and feeling more comfortable with Clinton, even if Obama was on defense.

by elrod 2008-04-16 06:26PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

Why doesnt Obama smile at these things? He doesnt look at her when she talks either. Just shuffles notes and looks at his hands. That really bugs me. I want to give him a note: pay attention and show respect to your colleagues. why does he do this-- it has been a consistent strategy so there must be some reason other than demonstrating jerkitude.

by hctb 2008-04-16 06:28PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

Not to mention his constant professorial bloviating, which is extremely annoying.

by KnowVox 2008-04-16 06:32PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

almost as annoying as your constant and inarticulate criticism.

My guess is Hillary could have come out and taken a dump on stage and you would have commended her for her posture during the act.

by JDF 2008-04-16 07:19PM | 0 recs
As a professional bloviator ...

I'd say that both candidates were too professorial (in a bad way) at times. I don't understand why they feel like they have to give a five minute answer to a closed-ended question.

I do agree, though, that Obama tended to meander a bit more that she did this time.

by professor 2008-04-16 09:14PM | 0 recs
It's hard not to look stiff

when listening intently to your adversary in a debate. The camera angles didn't help either, with his dour-looking face looming over her when they came in from the sides. The whole thing was just ugly.

by professor 2008-04-16 09:09PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

Why didn't he smile???? You're kidding, right?  He gets bombarded with inane question after inane question, nothing to do with policy, all to do with the politics of personal destruction as perfected by Karl Rove, and you're wondering why he isn't smiling?  Sheesh!

by JulieinVT 2008-04-17 02:37AM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

"A bit off his game" indeed.  He looked like Dan Quayle when he had to face Lloyd Bentson.

by Tolstoy 2008-04-16 06:36PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

Oh, come on.  I am an obama supporter and agree he was off his game, but to compare this to that is ridiculous.  

Although, for a thrill, go to youtube and watch that famous exchange.  Quayle is staring caught in the headlights, and swallows hard.  You can actually see him swallow hard on the tape, and the shot was taken from a three-quarter angle from the opposite side of the stage.

Such a great moment.  

by LarsThorwald 2008-04-16 08:09PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

I think it can be safely assumed that Obama did not expect questions about 60s radicalism and the Weather Underground.  Maybe he thought he'd get questions about Aghanistan, on the declining dollar, or healthcare, or China, or an actual issue.  

Worst debate ever.  Fox News just hosted a Democratic debate.  

by bosdcla14 2008-04-16 06:48PM | 0 recs
Given all the rumors this morning

somebody in his campaign had to know that Stephanopoulos was going to ask about Ayers. Even I knew that.

by professor 2008-04-16 09:19PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

I felt like ABC just handed a cart full of ammo to use against either of these two in November.  I am sure they wanted to sell ads and drag this primary out longer, but all they really did was make McCain's night.

by Xris 2008-04-16 06:09PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

...but the topics were mostly old news.

I thought some of the "challenging" questions were appropriate, particularly for Obama to respond on the "bitter" comment, and for Clinton to deal with the "sniper fire."

However, I think the flag pin question was one too many in the gutter.

Hillary went a bit too far at times rallyinh against Obama, and on the flip side Obama's mention of Hillary's "off the record comment" that was secretly recorded is EXACTLY the type of low blow that he was speaking out against.

by mjc888 2008-04-16 06:19PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

so you would agree with my choice to switch the TV to call of duty and drink beer because it was a huge waste of time:)

by Xris 2008-04-16 06:25PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

i had to watch american idol. More voters than the democratic primaries. ;)

by hctb 2008-04-16 06:29PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

ABC news is basically Fox News lite (if lite at all)... Mark Halperin made them that way, and they certainly serve their Disney masters well...

I would suggest to either candidate to never allow an ABC News debate again...

I can sort of see why Hillary wanted a FOX news debate, since it would be giant gang up on Obama like tonight...  But, she is lucky that they didn't get that debate, 'cos she probably would have been slammed pretty unfairly, too...

by LordMike 2008-04-16 06:33PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

As an Obama supporter I would have to say that Hillary performed well when she wasn't actually piling on to the attacks on Obama in the first segment.  William Ayers?  I mean really...

As usual it is hard to discern what the 'take-away' will be from this lacklustre debate, knowing the media probably the most controversial tabloid stuff, we'll see.  Interesting to see the Iran proliferation issue devolve to a nuclear deterrence agreement with Israel, props to Hillary for clarity on that but a definite risk in the general on issues of preventing a nuclear capable Iran.

by Shaun Appleby 2008-04-16 06:10PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

A truly disgusting "debate".

by Bobby Obama 2008-04-16 06:10PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

this is the first debate that i actually got up and left the apartment and came back to.

by sepulvedaj3 2008-04-16 06:10PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

laugh, I actually filled up a huge mug of beer and played Call of Duty 4.  Normally I never do that during debate time.

Its good to see an Obama and Clinton supporter agreeing on something:)

by Xris 2008-04-16 06:20PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

Gad, I love that game.

by fogiv 2008-04-16 06:29PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

It is insanely addictive.  But it kind of sucks when a 12 year old snipes you and then describes the horrible things he did to your mom the night before.  

Maybe us Obama supporters should challenge the Clinton supporters to a big Call of Duty throw down.  It would be more productive than the time we spend here throwing poop at each other.  

by Xris 2008-04-16 06:32PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

It would be equally as productive, that's for sure.

by fogiv 2008-04-16 07:02PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

OOO, I am so down for that.

by iowa dem 2008-04-17 06:18AM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

I'm a Battlefield 2 guy myself, but Call of Duty is fun.

by GobBluth 2008-04-16 06:59PM | 0 recs

It sucked. It was the worse moderated debate I have ever seen.

by Otaku Saru 2008-04-16 06:10PM | 0 recs
Re: Yeah

I thought Russert and Williams were far worse!

by tiffany 2008-04-16 06:34PM | 0 recs
Re: Yeah


by bobbank 2008-04-16 06:47PM | 0 recs
Re: Yeah

Indeed. At least Russert didn't ask any UFO questions this time.

by KnowVox 2008-04-16 06:59PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

This is nothing, wait till the GE debates.

by souvarine 2008-04-16 06:11PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread


by gotalife 2008-04-16 06:27PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

this is also the first debate in which my account didnt get frozen from posting too many comments.

by sepulvedaj3 2008-04-16 06:11PM | 0 recs
Totally agree with you Todd

This debate was a travesty. John McCain won this one. Not a single issue for the first half, but airing all the negative crap about both candidates. How terribly pathetic.

by TheSilverMonkey 2008-04-16 06:12PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

Fortunately, the last half hour was a real debate, and that's what people were left with.  So, looking at that last half hour, Hillary seemed very on her game, and Obama seemed very tired.  I don't think Obama realized that his audience was made up of Democrats.  Even his closing remark was not received well.  Also, saying that he would talk to Bush senior, as if to imply but not Clinton seemed in very poor form.  But as far Hillary's performance, she was so prepared, so clear, and at times funny (we all know Cheney is a 4th branch of government) I thought she did great.

by FarWest 2008-04-16 06:12PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

Glad you brought that up.  I'm never happy to hear a Democrat praise a Bush.

by Tolstoy 2008-04-16 06:42PM | 0 recs
At a fundemental level

she just doesn't get it.

Hillary is a brilliant woman with a great command of the issues.

But ever since South Carolina she has spent much of it launching attacks the effect of which has been increase her negatives to a point where she probably can't win the nomination.

In several instances these attacks have primarily served to re-enforce doubts about her honesty.  

Her campaign is the worst run major Democratic campaign since Ed Muskie.  

by fladem 2008-04-16 07:07PM | 0 recs
ABC sucks

The media is so full of shit. Nobody wants to hear any more about the tabloid bullshit.

God I just want to crawl underground until November so I don't have to hear this effluvia any more.

by fwiffo3 2008-04-16 06:13PM | 0 recs
HRC Vows "Tabloid Shit" Will Continue
Nope, in for a penny in for a pound, she's going to win by depressing voter turnout. She'll win the White House and lose the House in 2008 and the Senate in 2010.
by bernardpliers 2008-04-16 08:46PM | 0 recs
Maybe in your sim.politics world

you are delusional, right? We will not be losing the house or the Senate this cycle. THIS is a math thing. Republicans do not have the candidates.

Yours is an alternate reality.

by hctb 2008-04-16 10:54PM | 0 recs

basically feels that HRC was playing the McCain stand-in for a practice debate to prep the nominee: Obama.

Interesting take?!

by FOB92 2008-04-16 06:13PM | 0 recs

MSNBC thinks Hillary is irrelevant and should have stepped out in January so the men could get to debating what is at stake for our country?  I am shocked.

by hctb 2008-04-16 06:31PM | 0 recs

MSNBC has lost all credibility and should keep their mouths shut!

by tiffany 2008-04-16 06:36PM | 0 recs

Typical of MSNBC.  Totally pro-Obama. Totally hate-Hillary.

by Tolstoy 2008-04-16 06:43PM | 0 recs
Yeah, All MSNBC Hosts and Analysts suck...

like Joe Scarbourough and Pat Buchanan who have all of the sudden fallen in love with Hillary Clinton.

by nklein 2008-04-16 08:23PM | 0 recs

Asking Obama if he supported the flag isn't just absurd, it's irresponsible journalism.  How can anyone believe that the media favors Obama after that insulting line of questioning?

by jkfp2004 2008-04-16 06:13PM | 0 recs
Re: Shameful

It's a question that is going to be asked of him, in far harsher and less fair ways, if he is the nominee.  Seeing how he answers that question in a very tame setting, amongst a supportive crowd, with an opponent that is not willing to punch him with it, is important.

In that very favorable setting, he handled it decently - he redirected to the question to a broader and less specific ground, which is what he is very good at in a debate.  Won't work in a debate against McCain though.  He would have nailed Obama to a cross for implying, even remotely, that our flag is somehow the equivalent of contrived patriotism.

But since his opponent for now is a fellow Democrat, he did not have to withstand the full force of that question.

Understand this: you and I might not question his patriotism, but half of America will.  He has to be able to address it convincingly, and that is what such a question tests.  Think of it as a Print Preview button.

by bobbank 2008-04-16 06:51PM | 0 recs
I am tired

of these excuses from Clinton supporters.

No, I don't believe (insert absurd guilt by association attack here)is an issue, but wait until the Republicans get a hold of it they say.


by fladem 2008-04-16 07:12PM | 0 recs
Re: I am tired

Oh I think it's perfectly reasonable to judge someone by the company they keep.  I also think that 'association' is a relative term.

In the case of Wright, for example, 'association' means 'I consider this man the spiritual equivalent of my father, I look up to him as my mentor, I named my book in honor of his sermons (note: I only ever heard the nice sermons), I devoted myself to him for 20 years, I hired him as a national adviser to my campaign, and I helped to fund his organization to the tune of $20,000 a year.'

It's absolutely legitimate to question his decision to pledge himself to the man in that case.

I wouldn't say that Barack is anti-American because I don't think it's constructive: "American" means vastly different things to different people.  I would say that the fact that Barack admired Wright's ideology tells me something valid about his thinking, and I don't like it.

But anyway, thank you for playing parrot and echoing the Axelrod talking point that "guilt by association" is off limits.  If you actually have any of your own thoughts, I'd be happy to have a conversation.

by bobbank 2008-04-16 09:15PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

This was horrible. ABC News apparently would rather pander to American Idol style non-questions in lieu of actually having Democratic candidates discuss actual issues. They should have broadcast this from the set of the Springer show. I'm glad they're getting an earful over this and hopefully at least it will elevate the level of disgust all Americans have over getting force fed pointless sound bite "outrage".

by upstate girl 2008-04-16 06:14PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

This debate should have been sponsored by the National Enquire. Where was the discussion on waterboarding, FISA, and global warming? ABC really disappointed.

by mecarr 2008-04-16 06:15PM | 0 recs
Gibson and Stephanopoulos

should not ever get the chance to moderate a debate like this again. Completely unprofessional.

by MBNYC 2008-04-16 06:15PM | 0 recs
Re: Gibson and Stephanopoulos

No Fall debate for ABC

by Lefty Coaster 2008-04-16 08:09PM | 0 recs
It Didn't Help Either One of Them

I don't think it helped Obama much, but Obama took the opportunity to reach past the moderators and point out the meaningless superficiality of the media's role.

I don't think it helped Hillary either, but I think it really really drove up the negatives for people who may not have liked her much before.

So I don't think it'll move the polls, but it's going to get more money for Obama.

by bernardpliers 2008-04-16 06:16PM | 0 recs
Re: It Didn't Help Either One of Them

meaningless superficiality of the media's role.

the role is important- monitoring our shifty and shirking agents to government.  It is that the media seems to think that we have abrogated this role in favor of focusing responsibilities to entertain the masses or mollify corporate america.

by hctb 2008-04-16 06:35PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

I'm done with ABC and all their other channels (espn).. already started calling their sponsors...

Thank god for olberman calling them out.  Just fucking shameful

by CaptMorgan 2008-04-16 06:17PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

How could you listen to Olbermann and not call him a hack, as well?  

by tiffany 2008-04-16 06:38PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

Indeed.  KO has become a major league hack.

by Tolstoy 2008-04-16 06:45PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

He "became" a hack to you only when he started calling Hillary on her sh*t.  I bet you were fine with him when it was Bush who was in his sights.

by mikeinsf 2008-04-16 10:11PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

hctb<--always thought Olberman was a tool. Just preferred him to some of his MSNBC colleagues who are bigger tools. It is like the attractive man at a party versus attractive man. Square is a rhombus; rhombus is not always a square.

by hctb 2008-04-16 11:06PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

Can I nominate this for worst analogy of the night?

by ProgressiveDL 2008-04-17 06:09AM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

Hillary appeared much more Presidential and in command of the issues. Obama's contant bloviating did not serve him well.

by KnowVox 2008-04-16 06:19PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

I think:

Obama appeared much more Presidential and in command of the issues. Hillary's "contant" bloviating did not serve her well.

by fogiv 2008-04-16 06:35PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

alright, stand back to back, walk ten paces, turn around and fire. It is the only way to decide this.

by hctb 2008-04-16 06:37PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

Rock, paper scissors.  :)

by fogiv 2008-04-16 07:03PM | 0 recs

Was mentioned how many times. Zero!!!

by Otaku Saru 2008-04-16 06:19PM | 0 recs
If you were pissed off as much as I was here

is the link to complain about this crap shoot debate. I think both camps can agree this was not a debate but an attack on Democrats. 46&cat=ABC%20News%20Specials

Tell ABC what you think!

by SocialDem 2008-04-16 06:20PM | 0 recs
Amen to what has been said.

A travesty of a debate. McCain and the Republicans won this one. Obama will have a big fundraising couple of days.

by Obama08 2008-04-16 06:20PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

Hey all:  I haven't seen it yet, but did catch a little of the net live stream before I ran off the the kid's open house for school.  

Did the television coverage also have the "room full of undecideds pushing buttons to make an approval chart" thingy happening or was that exclusive to the webcast?

by fogiv 2008-04-16 06:21PM | 0 recs
Here's some advice

don't bother watching it.  The last hour was okay, but the first hour utterly ruined the debate for me.

by Student Guy 2008-04-16 07:19PM | 0 recs
Re: Here's some advice

You're right.  So far (42 minutes in) this has been:

a) bad for Obama

b) bad for Clinton

c) worse for ABC

d) Great for McCain


by fogiv 2008-04-16 07:42PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

Obama did a fine job with the Ayers question.  His reference to Coburn was right one. This was one I heard in the car.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-16 06:23PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

I thought that was an absurd attempt at analogy.

by Tolstoy 2008-04-16 06:47PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

That's sad... showing you don't even understand what you are talking about

by CaptMorgan 2008-04-16 07:47PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

I am unaware that Coburn himself has killed any abortion doctors. Am I missing something?

by hctb 2008-04-16 11:26PM | 0 recs
I didn't see the debate

because I'm still stuck out here on Pacific Daylight Time, but I did take a peek over at Brand X site and, boy oh boy, are the heads exploding!  Is it fair to conclude that Hillary did well?

by Radiowalla 2008-04-16 06:23PM | 0 recs
Re: I didn't see the debate

The big winner was John McCain.  Second place is sort of hard to tell.

by rfahey22 2008-04-16 06:24PM | 0 recs
Re: I didn't see the debate

Hillary was the BIG winner.

To quote a friend, "Obama stumbled around like a kid at camp who's lost his flashlight and can't get to the outhouse in time."

by KnowVox 2008-04-16 06:41PM | 0 recs
Re: I didn't see the debate

to quote a friend:

"I could write KnowVox's posts for them; that is how predictable they have become."

by JDF 2008-04-16 07:30PM | 0 recs
Re: I didn't see the debate

Is your friend 75 years old?  An outhouse?  

by LarsThorwald 2008-04-16 08:13PM | 0 recs
Re: I didn't see the debate

In fairness, he did have to send in the comment by telegraph.

by ProgressiveDL 2008-04-16 10:06PM | 0 recs
Re: I didn't see the debate

Hillary was the hands down winner.

by KnowVox 2008-04-16 06:38PM | 0 recs
Re: I didn't see the debate
I thought Hillary won hands down, too, but the Obama supporters are pissed and crying foul because their chosen one didn't do too well.
Hillary has taken a lot of crap from the MSM while Obama has been given a pass.  Tonight, Gibson roughed up Obama but Obama did not pass the test.
by tiffany 2008-04-16 06:45PM | 0 recs
Re: I didn't see the debate

Are you people 12?  Any mature intelligent person watching that debate thought:

"Why are they asking these stupid questions"

"Why are they still asking these stupid questions"

"Obama is right these questions are stupid and distracting"

"Why is hillary piling on this meaningless schoolyard crap"

The sad truth is for the first hour of the debate HRC and both moderators acted like children

by CaptMorgan 2008-04-16 07:49PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

OMG, you think the corporate media and the gop are going to hand over power without a fight?
Are going to be fair? Are you serious?

Reality check.

This is what the general debates will be like.

Need a fighter not a whiner.


by gotalife 2008-04-16 06:24PM | 0 recs
since you asked what I think: she won!

Hillary won debate and she will crash Obama in PA primaries. Obama was whining and boring and looked very UNPRESIDENTIAL

by engels 2008-04-16 06:26PM | 0 recs
Re: since you asked what I think: she won!

a lot of thought went into your post.  If only you could have added some digital pom poms.

by Xris 2008-04-16 06:28PM | 0 recs
Re: since you asked what I think: she won!

The use of caps is the true sign of a deep mind.

by rfahey22 2008-04-16 06:30PM | 0 recs
Re: since you asked what I think: she won!

IF ONLY I HAD KNOWN THAT BEFORE (makes note to self with crayon)


by fogiv 2008-04-16 07:16PM | 0 recs
My thoughts

1. I thought Sen. Clinton won this debate, but I have always been impressed by her debate performances even when I was supporting Edwards.  She effortlessly blends detail, big picture, solid delivery.  Love her or hate her or embrace her, she knows what she is talking about.

2. Gibson and wonder kid should be ashamed of themselves.  It's not just that there were so many gotcha questions, but that many of the other questions were stupid and in many cases they failed to even pretend to adhere to journalistic standards of objectivity in favor of "folksy" and leading questions.  Gibson is an abomination.  Jennings is rolling over in his grave.  That guy was good; Gibson is a tool.

3. Sen. Obama needs to bring greater variability into is stock move when pressed on Ayers, Wright, bitter, etc.  He has a good answer ("This is just more of the politics of division" and so on) but he needs to carry it off better, it seems to me.  After a while it looks a little dodgy and not high minded as intended.  I think he could have gotten a lot of mileage pointing out how the media have done the same things to Sen. Clinton, so that the answer is part of making him look bigger, not just repeating the defense.

But I will confess I spent some time checking on the Sox-Yankees, so I missed parts of the debate.

by Trond Jacobsen 2008-04-16 06:26PM | 0 recs
Re: My thoughts

I think that overall Hillary was a bit stronger, but both at times made some obvious mistakes, namely:

1) Hillary - when Obama gives a poor response, leave it be, don't pile it on.  That's a move that will backfire and is very transparent.

2) Obama - don't hide behind the cloak of rising above "typical politics" while simultaneously making low brow moves.  Example: his mention of Hillary's "secretly taped" conversation.  

by mjc888 2008-04-16 06:43PM | 0 recs
Re: My thoughts

That's so concise and spot on that I had to rate you up for it.  Very astute.

by bobbank 2008-04-16 06:54PM | 0 recs
Debate ... Idol ... Yankees-Red Sox here n/t

by professor 2008-04-16 09:33PM | 0 recs
Obama is the front runner

and the questions posed to him were no worse than those posed to Hillary in previous debates.

Welcome to the club.

by Coldblue 2008-04-16 06:28PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama is the front runner

That's probably true. This was like Hillary in New Hampshire. That didn't turn out too bad for her. Sympathy for her after that awful gang-up on her propelled her to victory. I wonder if that will happen this time.

by elrod 2008-04-16 06:36PM | 0 recs
Maybe, but I doubt it

He was too stiff and dour to generate much sympathy. If he had managed to keep his humor about him, Reagan style, then maybe it would have helped him some. After all, for most people the only thing they remember from the big Carter debate was the "There you go again" line.  Obama needed one of those lines.

by professor 2008-04-16 09:42PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

since we only have one channel at our house (we don't watch t.v.) I was really excited that the one channel we could kind of get (fuzzy to the point of barely being able to make out the candidates).

but now i hate myself. I've really let myself down by watching tabloid television.

by alex100 2008-04-16 06:31PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

Finally, something to bring the whole party together.

The debate airs here in 30 minutes.  I guess I'm safe leaving the M's/A's game on.

by thezzyzx 2008-04-16 06:31PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

Obama supporters (myself included) are pretty angry at Hillary for piling on about Ayers. Not really sure if it were smart for her to make that comment about him on the board with Ayers.

by gcensr 2008-04-16 06:33PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

christ, it was an hour ago. how did you all communicate and converge on your outrage? Did Axelrod send you out a text?

You have probably evolved beyond such outdated technologies.  mind meld?

by hctb 2008-04-16 06:43PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

Actually I believe that part of the Axelrod marketing campaign is a text messaging service that flashes supporters who are signed up for it.

by bobbank 2008-04-16 06:44PM | 0 recs
Unless the questions are substantive and serious

it's meaningless how either candidate addressed them. America is sinking into the muck and ABC seems fully willing to help us all along.

by RLMcCauley 2008-04-16 06:33PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

Passive-aggressive Howard Wolfson "wondering" about Obama's attendance at a William Ayers meeting. Sean Hannity wants to know. What a jackass.  

by elrod 2008-04-16 06:34PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

Wolfson is such a sketchy untrustworthy presence on television. But he definitely keeps the kitchen sink strategy going.

by wasder 2008-04-16 06:41PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

Actually the moderators did us a favor. They beat our candidates with the sticks that the GOP would beat them with in the GE. That will make them less effective in the GE. You may, like I was have been pissed while it was happening but in the long run the have weakened the GOP in the fall. For a lot of voters by the fall some of these issues will be "been there, heard that. Next!"  Hillary came off much better than Barack according to the Green Line!

by RedstateLib 2008-04-16 06:35PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

Possibly true, but Obama was given a LOT more hard gotcha questions than Clinton. It was like Clinton in NH.

by elrod 2008-04-16 06:37PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

Just offer Barack some warm milk and cookies; he'll be fine. =P

by bobbank 2008-04-16 06:43PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

Without his security blankey of fawning press he doesn't look comfortable.

by Tolstoy 2008-04-16 06:53PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

Without his security blankey of fawning press he doesn't look comfortable.

by Tolstoy 2008-04-16 07:00PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

after the past month of constant negative stories about Obama how can you still be clinging to the idea that its the media fault that he is winning?  BOTH of them have gotten whacked by the media.  I will be the first to admit that the media turned on Clinton early in the year and has now turned on Obama.  They want to make money and so they change story lines based on what they think can sell.

by Xris 2008-04-16 07:03PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

So thats the way it goes. When MSNBC hosted the debate the tried their hardest to skewer Clinton, tonight it was ABC and they went after Obama. You cannot expect every moderator on every network to carry the water for Obama. That won't happen and it shouldn't happen. He needs to be tough enough tonight to take what the media has been dishing her for months, and according to the green line he did not handle it. Does that mean he will lose the NOM no but it shows that he better become a better candidate before the GE or he doesn't have a prayer. The MSM is on McCains side so far they have given Obama a coast that will not happen after August, he better be able to take it better than tonight.

by RedstateLib 2008-04-16 06:48PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

so are you suggesting they will be nice to Clinton if she is the nominee?  Also, don't think its safe to assume they will turn on McCain as soon as we settle our side of things?

by Xris 2008-04-16 07:05PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

  That was the most disgraceful debate moderator performance I have ever seen.  Ever.  Truly indefensible.

by cilerder86 2008-04-16 06:39PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

Why?  I thought this was the closest we had to a balanced debate so far, except of course that Hillary always had to give first answer.  But she's used to that. =)

by bobbank 2008-04-16 06:43PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

I'm not sure what's sadder.. that someone posted this or that it was uprated

by CaptMorgan 2008-04-16 08:18PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

Pretty disgusting.

Don't know if Hil can shower enough to recover

by wrb 2008-04-16 06:40PM | 0 recs
fucking disgusting

ABC - home of the doctored Dean scream (w/o the crowd audio), the Clinton-hater 'path to 9/11', ABC 'family' channel blasts the 666 Club, ABC radio with's tabloid trash of a debate was the icing on the cake for me.

I got three kids, slowly they have been migrating over to Nickelodeon's shows bit by bit. No more Little Einstein crap, no more Mickey Clubhouse. And for my part - no more ESPN.

by westsyde 2008-04-16 06:40PM | 0 recs
Re: fucking disgusting

Bob Iger is a hardcore Hillary Supporter.

by yitbos96bb 2008-04-16 06:49PM | 0 recs
Most important word in this whole debate

Hillary Clinton, when FORCED to say whether Obama could beat McCain: "Yes"

Well, there goes her one and only argument to the Supers.

by ratmach 2008-04-16 06:41PM | 0 recs
Re: Most important word in this whole debate

see rfahey's comment about caps and deep thinking.

by hctb 2008-04-16 06:45PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

I tend to agree with OP.  The debate didn't especially move me.  Unfortunately, I was forced to watch it streamed from the local ABC syndicate.  This was unfortunate because they shrunk the real footage and forced me to stare at that silly green "reaction" line that moves up and down as people talk.

Here's what I noticed.

When either one of them gave a response, they both generally got high scores from the crowd.  It reminded me that both our candidates are, despite the rancor of the most passionate supporters, really quite likeable by the general public.

A few specifics I noted.

Obama tanked at the end of his response to the Wright questions.  Did you all hear the gaffe?  He said we couldn't bring this topic up ever again because he has "disowned" his pastor.

George noticed.  He almost gasped as he responded "DISOWNED?" incredulously.

Obama tried to recover by saying what he meant was that he had disowned some of the comments.  Huh?  I don't know if that is logically coherent, but the debate moved on.  I'm curious if this will trickle into morning buzz, as it is a direct contradiction to the central thesis of his race speech: that he could not more disown Rev. Wright than he could disown the African American community.

Maybe he changed his mind.

Another thing I noted: have you ever counted the number of times that Hillary gets first answer, and then Obama responds by saying, basically, "what she said"?  Happened at least five times during this debate.  The most prominent example, I thought, was his followup to Hillary's excellent answer to the question "what will you do to lower the price at the pump?"

That's what I like about Sen. Clinton - she didn't give a vague answer, but outlined specific policy points: making use of our strategic oil reserve, DoJ investigation for signs of market manipulation, and exercise of a windfall profits tax, to be repatrioted through public works projects such as highway reconstruction.

Obama's answer?  "What she said."  "Check my website (I can't seem to remember the details".  Not actual quotes, but basically how he answered.

Hillary's weakest moment?  Her answering of the Bosnia gaffe.  I'm mad at Howard, her comm director.  He knew this question would be asked.  They needed to prepare a stronger answer, like reminding people that the only reason this gaffe became a big deal was because the Obama campaign was looking for a topic change: having no examples of his own diplomatic experience to give, he drove us right back into the old politics of character destruction.

Hillary's best moment?  I thought the 2-3 minutes where she outlined her energy policy were brilliant.  The silly green line agreed.  It was the only time during the entire debate when the line was literally off the chart for a good minute.  I applauded her, by myself, from my apartment.  I couldn't help it.

Overall, though, I agree with Todd.  Nothing game changing.  Clinton was on top of her game, but didn't raise the bar at all, and didn't give a breakaway performance.  Obama was weaker than usual - he showed signs of fatigue and frustration to me at several points.

Closing statements by both candidates?  Weak.

by bobbank 2008-04-16 06:42PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread


 "What she said."  

but I am going to speak for another 90 seconds repeating her point because I love to hear my own voice.

sorry.. he is too long winded in these debates.

by hctb 2008-04-16 06:48PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

Nice analysis.
I said that Obama seems tired and ashen to me.  And he was really frustrated with being in this kind of debate style.  

By the way, Obama still has not agreed to the North Carolina debate.  If he doesn't go, Hillary should go anyway.  Let the audience ask the questions and challenge her.  She does very well with one-on-one, much better than Obama, who is too aloof for that kind of personal contact.

by stefystef 2008-04-17 03:23AM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

Clinton bringing up Farrakhan like that and hammering on wright may put the black vote at 100-0

I can't believe people are ignoring that.  She's already lost the GE.. she's lost the black vote permanently.

Do you people get any black talk radio stations where you live?  People are FURIOUS right now

by CaptMorgan 2008-04-16 06:44PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

I don't think she exactly hammered Wright, but I agree that the Farrakhan comment was a bit much.  

It's fairly obvious that Obama walked a tightrope of words when being challenged on why he intially distanced himself from Wright earlier in the campaign.

by mjc888 2008-04-16 06:47PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

Farkahan comment was valid, and I'm African American.  I listen to the urban radio stations and they are just pissed that people would challenge or question our so-called leaders.  

Trust me, Clinton will NOT lose the African American vote.  If she's the nominee far and square, we will vote for her.  But many blacks forget that we are NOT the only ethnic group in this country.  The largest growing so-called minority group is Hispanics and this is a group that SHOULD NOT be ignored because you can't group them with black voters.  

The right-wing will be taking Obama out with Wright/Farhakan rhetoric, so he better get use to it.   It is NOT the job of Hillary to protect Obama until he's the nominee.  He is her opponent.   She should treat him as such.

Politics ain't for babies.

by stefystef 2008-04-17 03:19AM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

People are FURIOUS right now.

I think such emotions should be saved for bad policy but if you want to waste your energy being "FURIOUS" at Hillary... well. I guess we all have different evaluations of what is important and what compels out vote.

It feels a little "old politics" to me... such hatred. hmm.

by hctb 2008-04-16 06:53PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

Personally, I dislike the comments that boil down to "we have to nominate Obama because he's Black."

I want a more compelling reason.

by bobbank 2008-04-16 06:58PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

who's saying that?

by mikeinsf 2008-04-16 07:28PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

Explain to me the difference between:

"If we don't nominate Obama, Blacks will make sure that we don't get a Democrat in the White House."


"We have to nominate Obama because he is Black."

Seems to me you are making the same argument that top surrogate John Kerry made.  After going on about all the terrific things Obama would do across the world, the interviewer asked a very simple question: What makes Barack Obama qualified to do all of these things.

John Kerry gave a very simple answer: "Because he's African American."

by bobbank 2008-04-16 09:06PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

I'd like to see the link to that.  

by mikeinsf 2008-04-16 10:05PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

Uh, I have never heard someone argue that before.  And at this point in the game I doubt any of us Obama supporters have the energy left to explain why we support him.  You have made up your mind and I salute you for being involved and engaged in the political process.  

by Xris 2008-04-16 07:33PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

Did you talk with Chris Bowers?  He said the same thing about the shower.

Look ABC is owned by Disney.  Disney is run by Bog Iger.  Iger is a BIG Clinton supporter.  So the tabloid Obama questions don't surprise me.  The ones that hit hillary did somewhat.  

Here is the thing... Like Obama or not... anyone who thinks he can't stand up to a GOP attack, ala Kerry is freakin nuts.

by yitbos96bb 2008-04-16 06:47PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

my mom could stand up to the GOP better than Kerry did.

by Xris 2008-04-16 06:49PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

MY grandma could stand up to the GOP better than Republicans. She would wheel right up to them and tell them where to stick their starve the bear strategy.

by hctb 2008-04-16 06:54PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

My cousin is an exact clone of Kerry's DNA taken from a wine glass at a Massachusetts white party, and he's gay and a Quaker, and he could stand up to the GOP better than Kerry did.  

by LarsThorwald 2008-04-16 08:20PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

pretty bad on a couple of levels

by mikeinsf 2008-04-16 10:06PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

The thing is, nothing really did hit Hillary hard. William Ayers is no more relevant than any of Hillary's miniscandals (Ferraro, Hospitalstorygate, allegations of vote-buying in NY, various fundraisers of lesser repute, etc), but we got Ayers and none of those.

Sure, she got Bosnia, and did a miserable job with the question, but that shouldn't have hit her hard. It should've been a softball. Obama got hit again and again on things from the vaguely interesting (Bittergate -- at least it's current) to the largely irrelevant (Wright) to the fully irrelevant (Ayers) to the ridiculous (flag pins).

Bosnia was in there to give it a slim veneer of being fair. If they'd really meant to keep it even vaguely fair, there were plenty of fairly minor silly issues to waste everyone's time with asking her about.

by Texas Gray Wolf 2008-04-16 07:35PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

And yet the answer to the Bosnia bit was the one time where the green line went down below 50 and into the low 40s.  Whereas on the answer to Wright and the yers thing, Obama's green line went up.

by LarsThorwald 2008-04-16 08:22PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread
Most people seem to agree even on the other networks that ABC did a terrible job. It's too bad but I think it reinforces Obama's point that
we are not focusing on the issues just the politics. I think this debate was sickening and it hurt both candidates.
by Politicalslave 2008-04-16 06:48PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread
Watching Clinton pounce on the Ayers thing cemented my disgust for her.
by jwolf 2008-04-16 06:48PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

It was the moderators who brought it up and the fact that they brought up the Weather Underground was the most cheap shot I've ever seen.

And nice shot from Obama about BIll's pardon of two Weathermen.  The whole issue was stupid.  Obama took the bait, he should have dismissed the question.

by stefystef 2008-04-17 03:13AM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

I've always thought Clinton is very good in debates. She has lots of energy and is good at punching answers out, with lots of detail.  Obama tends to be more uneven -- sometimes strong, sometimes not.

But Clinton's typical strength, I thought, was undermined by a few things:
1) The policy questions came in the second half, which was very likely for a smaller audience and one that was not paying as close attention.

2) The questions in the first half got Clinton oriented toward negative issues that have nothing to do the real world -- the things people care about, like health care, Iraq, etc.  So she didn't get to talk about those things, which help her, while what she did talk about only fuel her negatives.

by politicsmatters 2008-04-16 06:50PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

I agree that most nationally turned off the debate the first half....but I would venture to guess that PA stayed tuned in the majority of the time.

by mjc888 2008-04-16 06:54PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

I think the debate hurt them both.  ABC's "gotcha" crap will make Clinton look mean and Obama questionable.  Despite what the nutjobs in both camps think, it is media knee cap jobs like this that cause us to lose all the time.  Luckily, I feel like both of them fight back and will at least punch back at McCain in the general.

But still, any fair minded person would admit that this debate did our party no good.  They got both of them on record admitting to raising taxes, waffling on gun issues, and overriding the opinions of generals (if that wasn't framed like it came of McCain's mouth I don't know what else is).  Basically we looked like the flip flopping knee jerk liberals that conservatives have painted us as for years.

All of us should be pissed.

by Xris 2008-04-16 06:57PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

Rendell apparently thinks that the debate was just peachy.;jsessio nid=F90AF7DB4D982BF205BA9B2861098E42?dia ryId=5199

by rfahey22 2008-04-16 06:56PM | 0 recs
The Precious Is Finally Scrutinized!

It's HILARIOUS that the media, both new and old, are in such an uproar over the debate.  Clearly, it's due to the fact that aren't used to seeing Obama receive any level of serious scrutiny.

Snap outta it!

I say it's about time the media stopped coddling The Precious!

by BigBoyBlue 2008-04-16 06:57PM | 0 recs
Re: The Precious Is Finally Scrutinized!

What?  Weeks of playing the wright tape ad nauseum followed by endless repeating of "bitter" is 'coddling'?

by mikeinsf 2008-04-16 07:30PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

Disclaimer: I am a Diehard OBAMA supporter Hillary lost my vote with the lies

Now that being said I think Hillary was on top of her game tonight her answers emphasized her strengths... her passion (remember crying moment)
all except her Bosnia answer she apologized  but she still tried to blame it on sleep but I guess its a start from clinton as a Obama I was not at all outraged about the questions it was gonna happen sooner or later and of course he stumbled it was the first time the media went in on him guns blazings But I am proud of him I want to tell the media to keep it up it will condition Obama into a ultimate candidate and again Hillary performance tonight restored my confidence in her if she were the Nominee  

by wellinformed 2008-04-16 06:59PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

I am a hardcore Obama supporter too who normally gets really angry at Clinton during debates, but tonight I just wanted to punch the moderators.  In many ways I understand how Clinton fans felt after the Russert debate.  Clinton did what she had to do if she wants to have any chance of winning and being nice is not really an option for her anymore.  But the moderators basically set up both of them to get whacked by the Republicans come the general.  How I wish we would all quit fighting with each other and start fighting back against the conservatives.

by Xris 2008-04-16 07:02PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

Why do Democrats consitently agree to debates where they are attacked by the moderators? Is there such a thing as political masochism?

by Kobi 2008-04-16 07:17PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

we enjoy self inflicted pain, that's part of why we are democrats.  A buddy the other day asked me how I was able to stand being a Democrat considering we usually get our butts kicked.  I said it was easy compared to living with being a Buffalo Bills fan.  Now that my friend has been truly painful.

by Xris 2008-04-16 07:24PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

As a lifelong Cardinals (St.L-AZ) fan, I take a back seat to one when it comes to self pity.

by Kobi 2008-04-16 08:56PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

Why do we Dems hurt ourselves?

Because it feels better when we stop?

What an insane party we have!

by ILean Left 2008-04-16 08:57PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

I try to make the best out of a bad situation

I am glad Clinton FINALLY admitted the Obama CAN BEAT MCshame in the GE

I am Glad that Clinton can no longer claim she has been "VETTED"  (which I still don't know what it means I need to look it up but I assume its something adverse)

I am Glad the small Minority of petty clinton conspiracy Media bias supporters no longer can claim the media is sexist  because they pulled no punches with Obama

I am glad Barack got a wake up call Tonight so he can get a preview of what to expect  in the GE  when the republicans go after him

by wellinformed 2008-04-16 07:31PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

I try to make the best out of a bad situation

I am glad Clinton FINALLY admitted the Obama CAN BEAT MCshame in the GE

I am Glad that Clinton can no longer claim she has been "VETTED"  (which I still don't know what it means I need to look it up but I assume its something adverse)

I am Glad the small Minority of petty clinton conspiracy Media bias supporters no longer can claim the media is sexist  because they pulled no punches with Obama

I am glad Barack got a wake up call Tonight so he can get a preview of what to expect  in the GE  when the republicans go after him

by wellinformed 2008-04-16 07:31PM | 0 recs
Todd Beeton and east coast commentors

Excellent live blogging effort, Todd. Very well done!

And to all you east coasters with your many astute comments, thank you also.

My turn to watch the debate is about to begin. I'm prepped, the popcorn is popped and away I go.

by RickWn 2008-04-16 07:01PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

I got home and knew there was supposed to be a debate, but not where.So I checked out the cable networks and said to hell with it. I suspect a lot of others didn't watch it for various reasons.

So the spin is what they'll tune in to. And so far the spin seems to be that ABC tried to mug Obama.

by Kobi 2008-04-16 07:06PM | 0 recs
Rachel Maddow - WTF with HRC and Israel???

Hillary is talking about "massive retaliation against Iran" under WHAT treaty? NATO? Is she planning to consult Congress? She wants an "umbrella" to contain Iran, who has not invaded anyone since the 17th century?

These pandering comments didn't get much attention, mostly because they were fairly incomprehensible.

by bernardpliers 2008-04-16 07:09PM | 0 recs
Re: Rachel Maddow - WTF with HRC and Israel???

It's as hard to tell Hillary and McCain apart on Iran today as it was on Iraq in 2002.

by Kobi 2008-04-16 07:15PM | 0 recs
Re: Rachel Maddow - WTF with HRC and Israel???

Quite possibly NATO, Chirac said the exact same thing back in the day.

by msharp 2008-04-16 07:28PM | 0 recs
NATO - North Atlantic Treaty Organization

Ummm in the Middle East?

by bernardpliers 2008-04-16 07:50PM | 0 recs
Re: NATO - North Atlantic Treaty Organization

There has been some discussion of Israel joining NATO since the Iran nuclear issue came up in 2006.

by Shaun Appleby 2008-04-16 08:01PM | 0 recs
Re: NATO - North Atlantic Treaty Organization

Only from politicians pandering to the Israel lobby.

by Kobi 2008-04-16 08:58PM | 0 recs
Re: NATO - North Atlantic Treaty Organization

That would be all of them.  You'll have to be more specific.

by Shaun Appleby 2008-04-16 11:04PM | 0 recs
Re: NATO - North Atlantic Treaty Organization

There are degrees of pandering. Only the worst push the insane idea of committing US troops directly to Israel's wars.

by Kobi 2008-04-17 07:44AM | 0 recs
Re: NATO - North Atlantic Treaty Organization

Oh, I agree.  But the level of pandering is from bad to worse.  I'm an Obama supporter and I've watched him treading cautiously through this mine field.  There's a small but determined opposition to AIPAC among the US Jewish community too but it is swimming upstream against a strong current.

by Shaun Appleby 2008-04-17 01:27PM | 0 recs
Re: NATO - North Atlantic Treaty Organization


by Kobi 2008-04-17 02:52PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

This was not a debate.
How can any candidate win or lose?
Opportunities were however lost for both candidates as Gibson believes he would make the best President.

geeze...I am suddenly very tired.

by nogo war 2008-04-16 07:21PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

On nine items, I scored it 41 for Obama, 39 for Hillary. I can vote for either one of them. I like the idea of a dream ticket, and apparently it's constitutional.

I enjoyed the debate and thought both Obama and Hillary did a good job.

We don't live in a perfect universe, so neither of them were perfect.

by Hempy 2008-04-16 07:24PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

Wow, that was actually a pretty fair and open minded post.  Be careful the warmongers with pitch forks don't catch you.

by Xris 2008-04-16 07:25PM | 0 recs
Loser is ABC

As I will stop watching This Week from now on.  

I thought the Tim Russert-moderated debate was sensational enough, but this was pure tabloid dirt.  You could be supporting Atilla the Hun for President and still be upset at what kind of moderation this was.

by drjk 2008-04-16 07:41PM | 0 recs
John McCain

Meanwhile, has McCain received .0001% as much crap from moderators or journalists as either Obama or Clinton? Who is the one that needs the serious vetting.

by drjk 2008-04-16 07:43PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton further wounded each other tonight, to the advantage of John Keating McCain.  We need a fresh face, and soldier-statesman Jim Webb is the man to lead our party to victory.  It is time for Dems to realize that both Obama and Clinton are damaged goods, and start a movement to draft Jim Webb to be our party's nominee.

by elgringoviejo 2008-04-16 08:07PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread forgot to put "/snark" at the end of your post.  Surely it was just an oversight, because you can't be serious.

by ProgressiveDL 2008-04-16 10:18PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

We need the votes of independents, and what I saw last night isn't going to help us in Iowa, Ohio, or Florida.  Jim Webb is a true soldier-statesman, and can take down John Keating McCain.

by elgringoviejo 2008-04-17 03:48AM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

Maybe he can, but there is no way the Democratic Party leadership is going to suddenly jettison the two candidates that have created so much passion and fervor for a candidate that almost no one outside Virginia has ever heard of.  Sorry, not going to happen.  Maybe in 8 years after Obama's 2 terms.

by ProgressiveDL 2008-04-17 06:06AM | 0 recs
ABC the Loser

The crowd booed and heckled the moderators /abc-hosts-heckled-after-d_n_97124.html

And there are almost 10,000 very harsh comments on ABCs feedback page...


by CaptMorgan 2008-04-16 08:18PM | 0 recs
This isn't about Obama vs. Clinton

People argue all the time about whether the media favor Clinton, or the media favor Obama.  They favor neither; McCain is their man.  They preferentially beat up on Clinton earlier when she was the front-runner, and now they preferentially beat up on Obama since he is the front-runner.  All of the attacks are coming from the Republican direction: is he patriotic enough, does he have a scary black minister.

Clinton did well toward the end of the debate, but I'm sure a lot of people turned it off by then.  If the beat-up session at the beginning had any impact, Obama might well get a bounce, just as Clinton did in New Hampshire.  Had Clinton resisted the temptation to pile on, Obama might have suffered more damage.  But she's also about 25 points down against Obama on the likability number.

Clinton supporters should also be clear that ABC's performance tonight was not an attack on Obama that helped Clinton.  It was an attack on the Democratic Party, aimed at helping media mancrush John McCain.

by Joe Buck 2008-04-16 08:36PM | 0 recs
My ratings for that debate

Hillary an A -- She got away from attack mode and back to her original campaign message
Obama an A -- He weathered numerous attempts to mire him in trivial nonsense and got back to his original campaign message

Moderators F (isn't there anything lower?) I so wanted to turn it off but the candidates kept me watching.

by GFORD 2008-04-16 08:58PM | 0 recs
In all honesty as a supporter of Obama

who voted for him, i cringed at some of his answers tonight. I thought he did not look sure about his answers, especially on Rev. Wright. I thought he looked tired and sometimes at lose for words when he was asked questions about the weather-underground guy, the bitter comments, the flag and so forth.

He even looked weaker on taxes, the economy in general, and lifting the cap. I thought that Clinton was going to nail him on that, but she did not and let it go. He wasn't sure whether or not he would tax people at the 250K level or the 200K one. It was a mess, and i am not happy about his performance at all tonight.

I think Clinton did what she had to do. Her game plan was clear, and that is to go try to attack Obama and she did that. She is behind and she needed to do that. That's politics and as they say it is a contact sport.

I thought that her answer about electability of Obama was crystal clear and categorical: Yes, Yes, Yes. There is no more debate about that...move on there's nothing to see anymore here, although i am sure that she will say just the opposite behind closed doors, but again, that is politics, and i am sure that Obama does the same thing.

I thought on the economy, she was brilliant. Period. And as always she showed that she really knows her stuff.

If i have to grade them, i would give Clinton A- and Obama probably a solid C or C-.

I began to think that Mario Cuomo is right. These two candidates have to run now on the same ticket. They have gone at it for several months now and to be honest, both of them are good. Get them both on the same ticket...and get it over with.

He's good with words, she is good with details
He's good in urban area, she's good in rural areas
He's good with youth, she is good with elderly
He's good with A-A, she is good with women
He's good with educated voters, she is good with less educated voters

and so on. They are almost the opposite image of each other. Am i the only one who began thinking this way?

by likelihood zero 2008-04-16 09:05PM | 0 recs
Re: In all honesty as a supporter of Obama

No way.  No 'Dream Ticket'.

by mikeinsf 2008-04-16 10:16PM | 0 recs
Re: In all honesty as a supporter of Obama

If this is the surest way to win. So be it. I am all for it.

Look Mike, i don't know about you, but i want to win. Period. The rest is childish fights for me, and we need to grow up and realize that this is politics and it is a game for the grown ups and it is messy. If you are appalled by that, well stop now watching, participating and following politics right now because it will never change. And this Obama/Clinton or Clinton/Obama ticket is the only way to do assure a win, i am all for it.

Mikeinsf, if you are not happy about that, you are welcome to vote for McCain. I am sure McCain looks very good from SF.

by likelihood zero 2008-04-16 11:14PM | 0 recs
Re: In all honesty as a supporter of Obama

Kind of a long jump from "I don't want the Dream Ticket" to "Vote for McCain".  Look, I just happen to think there are a lot of qualified people for Veep.  I also think that the primaries have gotten so bad, it will be very uncomfortable if Hillary has to answer if Obama is now qualified to be CIC when she obviously didn't think so in March. I think the well's been poisoned so much that the so-called dream ticket would be ineffective.

by mikeinsf 2008-04-17 09:17AM | 0 recs
Too late

Being unfair to Obama tonight cannot make right the months (no, make that years) of crap being thrown at Hillary.
I don't blame Obama for this. But Obama has been as dirty as Hillary (both too much) and yet is seen as clean.
The bottom line is that I think Obama is a hypocrite. He claims he's taking the high road, but in fact his campaign managers have found subtle ways to take the low road with out being caught. I also think he needs more experience. Eight-ten years from now, let him run again, and then we'll see.

I will not vote for Obama, not because of Obama, but because of his supporters.
I can do this with a clean conscience because I live in CA which is solidly blue. If I lived in a purple state, I'd be sorely conflicted.

by nellre 2008-04-16 09:26PM | 0 recs
No worries

I live in Pennsylvania and I'm voting for Obama, so you can consider me your proxy.  I am an ardent Obama supporter, but I would vote for Hillary if she won (though I would not be very passionate about it).

by ProgressiveDL 2008-04-16 10:21PM | 0 recs
Re: Too late

Wow... yet your canidate attacked Obama for his faith, pastor and church tonight.  One of the most disgusting things I've ever seen a democratic politician do

by CaptMorgan 2008-04-17 12:51AM | 0 recs
Re: Too late

I did not feel that Hillary was attacking Obama.  It was George and Charlie going after him... and it's about time.  If you think that was rough, you wait until the Republicans and the right-wing get ahold of him.  

I said it before in other posts, WORST. DEBATE. EVER.  And I do not blame Obama or Hillary.  The cheap shot questions were the fault of the moderator and if Obama can't handle being challenged, perhaps he isn't mature enough to be president.

by stefystef 2008-04-17 03:05AM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread
I respect your opinion but as a democrat you are damaging the party and the coalition to beat Mcshame how can you be a true Hillary Supporter if she said if Barack is the Nominee she will do everything to rally the party behind him if she can do it why can't you? you justify this because of his supporters ?!?!?!?!?!!? can you tell me one thing his supporters did that Hillary supporters did not do ?
by wellinformed 2008-04-16 10:21PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

Well now that us left coasters have had a chance to watch, meh, not a good night for Barack. The whole format seemed designed to screw him. The first half was all of Hannity's talking points with Hillary piling on, then when they got into substance because they were trying to be 'fair' on speaking time she gets the lions share of the time during the policy debate. He looses both halves.

I don't think he did himself any favors on trying to explain the bitter stuff. I understand his basic premise and agree with it but he still hasn't found a way to explain it that doesn't piss everyone off.

I'm still amazed that Hillary essentially says that the military assessment or conditions on the ground will not alter her decision to leave Iraq, that just seems very short sighted to me and I can't believe she would actually follow through with such a plan, she must just be trying to pander to the anti-war people, I hope.

by Obama Independent 2008-04-16 10:39PM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

except that no one is pissed.  The freaking head of the steel workers agreed with barack on ed schultz today

Total media controversy

by CaptMorgan 2008-04-17 12:49AM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

I don't think Hillary was piling on to Obama.  She was challenging him on the same thing he was challenging her.  The moderators sucked and made them go after each other.

But in the end, Clinton did a MUCH better job with the issues.  

But listening to the Obama people, you'd think Obama was Jesus on the road to Golgotha.  Both candidates were treated poorly and the debate was very poorly moderated.

Shame on ABC.

P.S.  I thought Hillary looked great!  Loved the haircut/color.  And the color of the suit was very complimentary. ~thumbs up~

P.S.S.  Hillary has a First 100 Days plan and there was no talk of it.
Hillary is talking about the issues and challenging her opponents.  

by stefystef 2008-04-17 03:01AM | 0 recs
So Obama actually was not the darling?

Wow! Astonishing that they didn't continue to abuse Clinton while giving Obama the softball questions.

Guess I should watch the debate. I recorded it to watch later on. My spouse wanted to watch something else.

by splashy 2008-04-16 11:37PM | 0 recs
Re: So Obama actually was not the darling?

Indeed, first time in eternity that Obama was asked those tough questions. And he miserably failed.

The Obama myth is just starting to get peeled... (my kudos to abc - you've got courage!)

I remember reading an article by Larry Johnson posted on huffingtonpost on 2/16/08 and to quote:

" Obama's mantra, "Yes, We Can" is inspiring and heartwarming, but in the end is an empty phrase that will founder once the Republican political attack machine spins up. I realize that most Obamatons are so wedded to his vision of hope that any effort to point out the cracks in the foundation of the new Democratic Savior are met with fury and disdain."

Note,however, that I've stopped visiting huffingtonpost due to its highly delusional affection for their candidate.

by pleaseno 2008-04-17 12:49AM | 0 recs
Re: So Obama actually was not the darling?

"highly delusional affection for their candidate"... sounds a good description of some of the stuff I've seen Jerome put out over the last few months on myDD, clutching at every straw available to show that HRC will be and must be the nominee. He's been a lot quieter recently, though, so perhaps he's gradually coming to terms with reality.

by al1 2008-04-17 02:56AM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread


In the debate last night far too much time was spent attacking Obama on trivial issues such  as wearing flag lapel pins,  one bitter misstatement, and  remote associations. The two moderators and Clinton put him on the defensive for much of the night.

He did OK and Clinton was her usual competent self. About the only news was the conviction of candidates that each would set the strategy and mission for Iraq and not be necessarily bound by opinions of the generals. Also, each conceded that the other was electable in the November election.

Mostly ho-hum. Where are Mike Gravel and Dennis Kucinich when we need them?


by Homer 2008-04-17 04:44AM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread
I keep hearing about how horrid the moderators were. And yet some of the same folks cheered on Russert and Matthews.  Lousy is lousy.  Hillary supporters had to watch the "pile on" crap in every MSNBC debate.  Now Obama supporters got a taste.  What goes around comes around with the MSM.  They do NOT like dems.  Hillary was their first it's Obama.  It has always been clear to me.  They will go after whomever the dem nominee is.  They will use racism or sexism or anything.  The problem was that so many Obama supporters have been defending the tactics of the MSM.  And few of them remember how they did to Gore what they are doing to Clinton and will do to Obama.  
Maybe this was a wake up call.  Maybe dems will finally get it.....this is NOT American Idol.
by Jjc2008 2008-04-17 04:56AM | 0 recs
Re: Post Debate Thread

So Clinton did better on the issues? Isn't that what we democrats should be about? Framing the issues? I do beleive Obama is not ready to answer the hard questions that are sure to come in the General. As Clinton said, we're so used to her baggage, it will fall on deaf ears. Dontcha love Obama's praise of former Republican Presidents? He participates in the re-visionist history of the Clinton presidency. In the General, I expect him to talk about how great Bush Jr. was. He really should be a third party candidate, he's not a Democrat.

by glennmcgahee 2008-04-17 05:07AM | 0 recs
Finally the shoe is on the other foot

After Clinton was attacked mercilessly by the likes of Kos, ObamaPost, Olbermann, Russert and also had to go through several horrendous debates; it seems like Obama fans are waking up to the reality that news organizations can be merciless to them also. One thing that is obvious now is that once the Dem Presidential Nomination is over, the nominee will get pummelled by the media. And if Obama is the nominee, by the end of the election in November, half the country will think that he is the Anti-Christ incarnate.

And frankly, after listening to hours and hours of Obama partisans attack Clinton needlessly, I can honestly say that I do not feel like defending him.

by ann0nymous 2008-04-17 05:12AM | 0 recs
Why Hillary Lost the Race and This Debate

Hillary supporters are going to find out that Democrats look for political behavior that is DISTINCT from Sean Hannity, Bill O'Reilly and Ann Coulter. They reject "politics by character assassination".

One of the candidates used these linkages:
Rev Wright -> Farakahn - > Hamas
Ayres -> 9/11 -> "wish we could have done more"

That's why Hillary will loose... people watch these debates to get a sense of the person's character.

Did George Bush EVER mention the Swiftboat slur in a debate with Kerry? No. Because he was coached that it would only cost him in the eyes of the voter to pull the conversation into the mudpit.

It's not about policy in a debate... it's a chance to show character.

Hillary's supporters are ALL ABOUT POLICY and they think Republican "stink bombs" are OK. That's why she's loosing because on issues of substance she should have won... but on issues of character she's coming up short. It also reflects upon the Hillary supporter and what they think is acceptable in a political debate.

Democrats are becoming polarized around the issue of what the party stands for: empathy or win at all costs?

George Bush based his first "win" on compassionate conservatism: it works. He was more considerate and respectful with John Kerry than Hillary was with Barack and that's pretty hard for a lot of us to take.

But, it's why she's going to loose: character flaws.

by mcdtracy 2008-04-17 08:44AM | 0 recs
Correction: Change Lost to Loosing.

Sorry, I know she hasn't lost yet.

I know there's a possibility she could turn this thing around...

I know that I could never vote for her based upon this campaign and I think I'm in the majority nationally in that regard.

So, let the campaign continue until all the votes have been counted and all legal and political means exhausted to give Hillary a chance at the nomination... because that's what democrats do.

Tha's why I typically vote democrat with the exception of my vote for Shirley Chisolm. Yes, I voted for the one of the first females that ever ran for President... in 1972. Because I thought she had character.

by mcdtracy 2008-04-17 08:52AM | 0 recs


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