Overheard In The Spin Room: Hillary Clinton Edition

From Congresswoman Maxine Waters, a Clinton supporter:

People in my district have a lot of hope. They go to bed hungry, they have trouble heating their homes but they have a lot of hope that things will get better. They don't need more hope, they need help.

Dang.

From California House Speaker Fabian Nunez, a Clinton supporter:

The issue of race is simply not an issue [for the latino community.] Latinos favor Hillary Clinton over Barack Obama not because he's black and she's white but because they're familiar with her and remember that the Clintons brought home the bacon for the latino community.

I'm gonna try to get into some of the Obama spin scrums now...

Tags: 2008 Presidential election (all tags)

Comments

48 Comments

Re: Overheard

This was Clinton's debate, all the way. A dazzling performance, very careful and methodical in her responses. Supremely detailed and controlled. She has been the absolute winner--not even close. The best line EVER--"It took a Clinton to clean up after the FIRST Bush, and it just might take another Clinton to clean up after the SECOND Bush." THE DEMOCRATIC LINE OF THE YEAR AND THE CAMPAIGN. Say hello, America, to the first woman president. She's going to clean up next Tuesday!

by lambros 2008-01-31 06:02PM | 0 recs
Re: Overheard

If she would have shut up on Iraq, she would have "won" the debate as a dealer wins the push.  But in debate, when you're explaining you're losing.  She went on and on to justify an unjustifiable vote, and  Obama hit it home with "right on day one."

by Drummond 2008-01-31 06:07PM | 0 recs
Re: Overheard

People in my district have a lot of hope. They go to bed hungry, they have trouble heating their homes but they have a lot of hope that things will get better. They don't need more hope, they need help.

SPOT ON. This is exactly the counter narrative the Clinton campaign needs to incorporate. I made this point a few nights ago. Obama supporters, when looking at the demographics, are people who are...more or less in a better position in the economy. They're peop who  think that "people arguing" in Washington is the most pressing issue in the country.

Clinton voters are people who worry about feeding their family and struggling to stay afloat in the tidal wave of being an economic second class citizen in American.

To borrow a line from John Edwards, there are two America's in this country, and people who belong to that disenfranchised rung of America want someone to fight for them, not someone to make them feel all warm and fuzzy.

by world dictator 2008-01-31 06:29PM | 0 recs
Re: Overheard

the fact is that obama clearly mentioned his economic, and health care policies. and if maxine hopped on to the obama website she could find out his positions on all of the issues that concern her constituents. this tactic of blindly attacking the message of "hope" and "change" seems to be a way for clinton and her supporters to try and belittle obamas message.

that being said, I don't think there is any proem with mentioning the messenger when they are clearly attacking obama. the fact is that waters is regularly criticized for being one of the most corrupt members of congress. if she spent half as much time representing her constituents interests as she does promoting her own, maybe she would have more to show for her service to the district.  

by highgrade 2008-01-31 07:33PM | 0 recs
Re: Overheard

Yes Obama talks about economics and health care. No one is accusing Obama of not doing enough talking. People are pointing out that he doesn't do enough walking.

Also, your argument for why its okay to attack the messenger just begs the question. You say it's alright to attack the congresswoman on corruption because she's corrupt. Your logic is fallacious and non responsive.

by world dictator 2008-02-01 01:42AM | 0 recs
Re: Overheard In The Spin Room: Hillary Clinton Ed

Good line from Waters.  But she's been representing them for decades now.  When's she going to start helping?

by Drummond 2008-01-31 06:05PM | 0 recs
Re: Overheard In The Spin Room: Hillary Clinton Ed

Obviously you're not familiar with Rep. Water's voting record.

by KnowVox 2008-01-31 06:08PM | 0 recs
Re: Overheard In The Spin Room: Hillary Clinton Ed

I am very familiar with it.  I've been a fan of hers for a long time.  But I think the comment is a little hypocritical.

by Drummond 2008-01-31 06:26PM | 0 recs
Re: Overheard In The Spin Room: Hillary Clinton Ed

An Ad Hominim is a logical fallacy. Further, attacking the messenger doesn't disprove the messenger.

by world dictator 2008-01-31 06:31PM | 0 recs
Re: Overheard In The Spin Room: Hillary Clinton Ed

Don't be insulting. It's one thing to disagree with her point about whether Obama's message (rhectoric) is right, and quite another to pretend that the messenger isn't someone who has helped her community (her action).  You people really need to learn how to argue against rhectoric that you think is wrong without impugning the actions of others.

by bruh21 2008-01-31 06:08PM | 0 recs
Re: Overheard In The Spin Room: Hillary Clinton Ed

The point is, she makes a comment about results being more important than principle or hope.  But she doesn't offer results herself.  Only principle and hope.

I'm not blaming her.  The system is inequitable.  NAFTA has done in the working class job base and her constituents are suffering as the result.

But a little more humility is in order.  The Clintons had their chance before and her district is still in poverty.

by Drummond 2008-01-31 06:28PM | 0 recs
Re: Overheard In The Spin Room: Hillary Clinton Ed

You have no idea what youa re talking a bout. This is the Krugman moment again. look, disagree with her, but don't turn this into a character assasination. She disagrees with Obama's message. say she's wrong on that. that's fine. but what you are doing- you can talk until you are blue in the face, and all you are doing is confirming that yo are jerk, and she is probably right because you can't respond to the critique without making it, as in the case with krugman, about how evil the speaker is.

by bruh21 2008-01-31 06:41PM | 0 recs
Re: Overheard In The Spin Room: Hillary Clinton Ed

You're overreacting dude.

by Drummond 2008-01-31 07:16PM | 0 recs
Re: Overheard In The Spin Room: Hillary Clinton Ed

I would so love to watch you say that to her face.

by Steve M 2008-01-31 06:12PM | 0 recs
Re: Overheard In The Spin Room: Hillary Clinton Ed

If she made a swipe at Obama like that in my presence, I would.

by Drummond 2008-01-31 06:28PM | 0 recs
Re: Overheard In The Spin Room: Hillary Clinton Ed

And then the bell would ring, and school would begin.

by naderhader 2008-01-31 06:40PM | 0 recs
Re: Overheard In The Spin Room: Hillary Clinton Ed

Nice on two levels- both as a threat and an insult of the poster's maturity level.

by bruh21 2008-01-31 06:42PM | 0 recs
Re: In a way, Obama has nothing to lose now

If Obama does not make the cut this year, he'll be back. He's young.

by RJEvans 2008-01-31 06:09PM | 0 recs
Re: spin

There would be some irony after all this acrimony if we end up with a Clinton/Obama ticket and Edwards as attorney general. Still don't see how such a ticket wins OH or FL or the western states ?

by bruh21 2008-01-31 06:10PM | 0 recs
I still do not believe

that either Hillary or Obama would pick the other as a running mate. Think very safe white male choice, a governor or someone with foreign-policy experience.

by desmoinesdem 2008-01-31 06:11PM | 0 recs
Re: I still do not believe

I agree, but I also don't understand the value of it even if we weren't talking on those terms- how does he help to deliver Oh for example or NM or any of the states that would throw the GOP strategy into a tailspin.

by bruh21 2008-01-31 06:17PM | 0 recs
Re: spin

That would be great because it would give all of us a degree of happiness- and I have thought about it- unfortunately, that's the only order I see it happening (Obama won't pick Hillary as his VP)and that will make some people less happy that others.

by reasonwarrior 2008-01-31 06:21PM | 0 recs
Re: spin

Florida Primary votes:

Clinton: 857,208
McCain: 693,508
Romney: 598,188
Obama: 569,041

Florida had a massive female turnout, increasing from 55% of the Democratic voters in 2004 to 59% this year.

We have seen that increase in every primary and caucus state so far. If the Dems tilt the male/female balance a couple percentage points in November, we win. It's as simple as that. It's not increasing a Democratic leaning demographic group. It's increasing a Democratic leaning majority group that cuts across all ethnic lines: African American, Latina, Asian American, White.

Al Gore essentially tied because he turned out women. Kerry lost because he didn't. Increase Al Gore's female support by 2% and the Dems win going away...as you can see from the Florida numbers.

by hwc 2008-01-31 06:22PM | 0 recs
Re: spin

This will come across as back hand compliment- but its nice to see a post ofyours that doesn't feel like spin. My question is whether this has been proven or this speculation? Proven not in the sense that we have won or lost election that way, but is there proof that his growth is possible. This feel like Rove's turn out the base argument.

by bruh21 2008-01-31 06:26PM | 0 recs
Re: spin

Bruh, I'll take a compliment anyway I can get one!

The reality is that both Obama and Clinton are driving massive increases in Democratic enthusiasm and turnout. Florida's Democratic turnout doubled -- without a candidate setting foot in the state! That's mind blowing.

Where are we seeing the big increases? Well, across the board, obviously. But, especially in the 18-29 group (Obama) and women (Hillary). We see this consistently in state after state because these two groups are increasing not only in raw numbers, but as a percentage of turnout.

Florida 2004 Democratic Primary:
55% women
45% men

Florida 2008 Democratic Primary:
59% women
41% men

We've seen at least a 2% swing in female turnout in every state so far: Iowa, NH, MI, Nevada, SC, and Florida. Female turnout was off the charts in SC because you had a double affinity group scenario for African American women.

The best news for a general election is that Clinton has beat McCain among "independents" in both NH and Florida. Again, women.

Obama is also very, very strong in pulling new voters to the polls, which is fantastic for the Party. The downside in the general is that his two strongest affinity groups (18 to 29 and African Americans are smaller slices of the electorate in the states the Dems need to win in the electoral college -- Florida, Ohio, New Hampshire, Nevada, Arizona, Arkansas, etc.

The interesting thing about attracting women is that it cuts across all racial lines. Women are the majority of white voters, but they are the overwhelming majority of Latino/a and African American voters, largely because young males simply don't vote relative to any other age/gender group.

by hwc 2008-01-31 06:48PM | 0 recs
Re: spin

Okay, now I can see why people would want an Clinton/Obama ticket -- basically they would both bring in new voters but of different demographics

by bruh21 2008-01-31 07:07PM | 0 recs
Except his career

Running as Hillary's VP would end his career.

Barack Obama cannot run as the 'next in line'.  He will not translate into "now properly experienced" candidate.   Obama brings youthful energy to the table - that generally grows up and a new one comes about by the time he could run again.

I'm not saying this as any kind of knock on Hillary Clinton, I'm saying Barack Obama would be an idiot to take the VP slot.   He'd be much better off taking a shot at the Illinois governor's mansion as soon as Blago goes to jail.

by zonk 2008-01-31 06:13PM | 0 recs
Re: Except his career

You are dead wrong.  With more experience he will be even better.  Period.

by Mike Pridmore 2008-01-31 07:36PM | 0 recs
Re: Except his career

Nope.

You can't bring "change" as the 'next-in-line'.

This is a slam at HRC - but it's true, and you know it - you can't bring 'transparency' to governemnt coming from under a Clinton administration.

You can't be the fresh face, the outsider - running as a VP.

It will kill Obama's political career.  He'll be tarred just like Gore - wanting to run "his own" campaign, but being unable to break free from whence he came... just like Gore - maybe he could win a slim majority (SCOTUS aside), but he won't be able to run or serve as what he can now.

If Obama doesn't win the nomination - I pray Clinton doesn't offer him the VP slot.  Obama's best route to another run in 2012 or 2016 is then through the IL governor's mansion... not 4-8 years going to funerals.

by zonk 2008-02-01 03:17AM | 0 recs
Re: Overheard In The Spin Room:

Great line from Waters- she needs to give that one to Hillary to say- it's a good zinger.

There's a song from the Beatles- "Tomorrow Never Knows" and I think that sums up reaction from every debate.  I have no clue to how people will react to it.  Hillary won the focus group but that means little to nothing really- Edwards almost always won it and he's not on stage anymore.

by reasonwarrior 2008-01-31 06:18PM | 0 recs
Re: Overheard In The Spin Room: Hillary Clinton Ed

Do either of them actually want to be vice president? I'm certain Hillary doesn't. I doubt that Obama does either.

by OrangeFur 2008-01-31 06:20PM | 0 recs
Re: Overheard In The Spin Room: Hillary Clinton Ed

Why wouldn't he?  Many a President has come from the Vice-Presidency.

by reasonwarrior 2008-01-31 06:22PM | 0 recs
Re: Overheard In The Spin Room: Hillary Clinton Ed

I'd love to hear what Maxine Waters thought of Clinton's response that illegals are responsible for a lot of the problems in the AA Community.  I was shocked by Hillary's comment there, as if the problems in the inner city didn't exist before the wave of illegal immigration and that it is somehow the workers fault, not the employers who are exploiting the situation.  Rachel Maddow's take on this area was spot on.

by Piuma 2008-01-31 06:22PM | 0 recs
Re: Overheard In The Spin Room: Hillary Clinton Ed

You seem to have heard that answer much differently than I recall it.  Perhaps we need to go to the transcript.

by Steve M 2008-01-31 06:28PM | 0 recs
Re: Overheard In The Spin Room: Hillary Clinton Ed

Obama went first and here's what he said right away going to the heart of the subtext of the question which was it's all their fault.


OBAMA: Well, let me first of all say that I have worked on the streets of Chicago as an organizer with people who have been laid off from steel plants, black, white, Hispanic, Asian, and, you know, all of them are feeling economically insecure right now, and they have been for many years. Before the latest round of immigrants showed up, you had huge unemployment rates among African-American youth.

And, so, I think to suggest somehow that the problem that we're seeing in inner-city unemployment, for example, is attributable to immigrants, I think, is a case of scapegoating that I do not believe in, I do not subscribe to.

Clinton however, when asked about the Drivers Licenses came back to Barack's question and weaved in a story which I found surprising and unnecessary:


CLINTON: Well, let me start with the original question from Kim, because I think it deserves an answer.  I believe that in many parts of our country, because of employers who exploit undocumented workers and drive down wages, there are job losses. And I think we should be honest about that.  There are people who have been pushed out of jobs and factories and meat processing plants, and all kinds of settings. And I meet them.

You know, I was in Atlanta last night, and an African-American man said to me, "I used to have a lot of construction jobs, and now it just seems like the only people who get them anymore are people who are here without documentation." So, I know that what we have to do is to bring our country together to have a comprehensive immigration reform solution.


by Piuma 2008-01-31 06:40PM | 0 recs
Re: Overheard In The Spin Room: Hillary Clinton Ed

Here is what you said:

I'd love to hear what Maxine Waters thought of Clinton's response that illegals are responsible for a lot of the problems in the AA Community.  I was shocked by Hillary's comment there, as if the problems in the inner city didn't exist before the wave of illegal immigration and that it is somehow the workers fault, not the employers who are exploiting the situation.

Here is what Hillary said:

I believe that in many parts of our country, because of employers who exploit undocumented workers and drive down wages, there are job losses.

Now, do you really think she said "it is somehow the workers fault, not the employers who are exploiting the situation"?  Or do you think she made the exact opposite point?

by Steve M 2008-01-31 07:00PM | 0 recs
Re: Overheard In The Spin Room: Hillary Clinton Ed

In thinking back on it I didn't remember the part about the workers and after watching it again it comes off different than how it reads in the text.  In fairness she was making both points.  I thought the second part was unnecessary and in fact wrong to highlight.  In the replay she emphasizes more the story of the construction worker than emphasizing it is the employer's fault.  Rachel Maddow on MSNBC had the exact same reaction I did.

by Piuma 2008-01-31 08:59PM | 0 recs
Re: Overheard In The Spin Room: Hillary Clinton Ed

Whatever.  Maxine Waters endorsement is for sale to the highest bidder.  She's consistently been rated as one of the most corrupt members of Congress.

http://www.citizensforethics.org/node/24 122

I worked for a California Assembly member who asked for her endorsement when he ran for City Council, and she straight up asked him for cash.

by stuckinsf 2008-01-31 06:23PM | 0 recs
Re: Overheard In The Spin Room: Hillary Clinton Ed

Some of you really never learn. You can't win by attacking people we respect. I hope this isn't Obama's strategy with this. It's a dumb one.

by bruh21 2008-01-31 06:27PM | 0 recs
Re: Overheard In The Spin Room: Hillary Clinton Ed

Please try to look at people as individuals.  

by Piuma 2008-01-31 06:29PM | 0 recs
Re: Overheard In The Spin Room: Hillary Clinton Ed

when you start acting as individuals, I will be happy to respect you as such. i dont expect that to happen until after the primaries, what about you and your other supporters? seriously , if you are going to run around in defense of someone because i said 'you' then you might want to pick your battles better.  this person and several others along this thread are engaged in character assasination just because they don't like the message.  if 'you' think that my use of word choice is more important than the character assassination then you have poor priorities in this discussion.

by bruh21 2008-01-31 06:45PM | 0 recs
Re: Overheard In The Spin Room: Hillary Clinton Ed

Character assassination. Like drug dealing muslim? C'mon.

by illlaw1 2008-02-01 06:24AM | 0 recs
Re: Overheard In The Spin Room: Hillary Clinton Ed

You think stuckinsf works for Obama or something?

by illlaw1 2008-02-01 06:23AM | 0 recs
Re: In a way, Obama has nothing to lose now

I don't think he'll take the VP position.

by Drummond 2008-01-31 06:29PM | 0 recs
Re: Overheard In The Spin Room: Hillary Clinton Ed

Yeah, because hope and help are mutually exclusive.  

by snaktime 2008-02-01 05:34AM | 0 recs
Re: Overheard In The Spin Room: Hillary Clinton Ed

Bacon? Like IIRIRA? Sheesh. Thousands of Latino families have been torn apart because of the law that Clinton signed. You think someone might want to point that out to Latino voter.

by illlaw1 2008-02-01 06:22AM | 0 recs
Re: Overheard In The Spin Room: Hillary Clinton Ed

Ok, so I am a huge Maxine fan.  He is the only person in congress who has a line in a hip-hop song praising her (I want all my daughters to be like Maxine Waters- KRS-1).

I am also an Obama fan so I am disappointed about her endorsement, but not surprised.  It seems like the house endorsements are breaking down on generational lines in a big way- X is for Obama, Maxine is for Waters.

As a side note, Waters represents Los Angeles.  As a LA Ex-Pat I can attest that home heating is not a big problem in LA, in fact most of the apartments I had there didn't even have heaters...

by WEFV 2008-02-01 06:44AM | 0 recs
Re: Overheard In The Spin Room: Hillary Clinton Ed

The only problem with Maxine Waters' comment is that it simply isn't true.  People want a reason to think that things will change.  Sure, people need help, but if they think that they will just need help again (their daily bread) and that nothing is ultimately going to change, that's when people get despondent or desperate or just stop trying.  Man does not live on bread alone.  This is pablum, but it is true.

by the mollusk 2008-02-01 07:00AM | 0 recs

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