Open Thread

Discuss...

Update [2008-1-29 23:15:43 by Jerome Armstrong]: How about this line in Clinton's closing remarks, from her Florida speech: Stay with us, because starting tomorrow, we’re going to sweep through the states across our country to February 5th, and we will together not only take back the White House, but take back our country.

Tags: Open Thread (all tags)

Comments

103 Comments

Re: Open Thread

How long is Edwards going to drag this out?

by Zeitgeist9000 2008-01-29 06:07PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

Does it burn you up that Edwards will be getting media attention tomorrow for a major speech on poverty in New Orleans, when he could just be dropping out instead?

I personally think it's a good thing that he calls attention to issues like that, but maybe I'm wrong and he should just go home.

by Steve M 2008-01-29 06:10PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

You have a point there!

But I don't like this "kingmaker" scenario I hear he wants to do at the convention....

by Zeitgeist9000 2008-01-29 06:17PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

Don't worry, it is far more likely that the superdelegates will play the role of kingmakers than Edwards will.  

by msstaley 2008-01-29 07:50PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

Yes, you're right. Its much better that maxed-out corporate donors play kingmaker in the democratic primary than voters.

by desmoulins 2008-01-29 07:56PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

He is not going to be kingmaker because he won't make the 15% threshold in most districts.

by kristoph 2008-01-29 09:28PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

He was fantastic tonight when I saw him in St. Paul, MN.  A great old fashioned, fiery, liberal crowd and a speech to match.  He's not going home.

by eric the red 2008-01-29 06:21PM | 0 recs
I support Clinton, but think that

Edwards should stay in.  He adds a very articulate voice - in a relatively non-divisive way - to the Party.

I'm also glad he's going to New Orleans to draw attention to poverty and the neglect of the Katrina victims.

by steveinohio 2008-01-29 06:41PM | 0 recs
$20dollars or $287K dollars

http://www.gregpalast.com/one-bush-left- behind/

Excerpt

In his State of the Union, the President asked Congress for $300 million for poor kids in the inner city. As there are, officially, 15 million children in America living in poverty, how much is that per child? Correct! $20.

Here's your second question. The President also demanded that Congress extend his tax cuts. The cost: $4.3 trillion over ten years. The big recipients are millionaires. And the number of millionaires happens, not coincidentally, to equal the number of poor kids, roughly 15 million of them. OK class: what is the cost of the tax cut per millionaire? That's right, Richie, $287,000 apiece.

by dearreader 2008-01-29 09:51PM | 0 recs
Obama CAN'T

Can't win latinos, asians, white women, Catholics, or Jresih American voters.

Obama doesn't transcend squat.

by dpANDREWS 2008-01-29 06:08PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama CAN'T

It's one of us Jewish-Americans all hopped up on kosher wine.

by Steve M 2008-01-29 06:52PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama CAN'T

A Jresih American is an American who has immigrated here from the planet Jresih and who, since we can't deport him/her/it because we lack the technology, has been allowed to stay in this country and assimilate with the American culture.  There are some cultural frictions arising from the fact that they look upon chihuahuas as snack food, an outlook that offends many but is tolerated by many more.

by InigoMontoya 2008-01-29 06:54PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama CAN'T

There you go playing the Jresih card again.

by desmoulins 2008-01-29 07:58PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama CAN'T

purple monkey goorgle skump.

by msstaley 2008-01-29 07:53PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

How is it possible that Republicans can find a way to seat their delegates in Michigan and Florida but Democrats cannot?  Who is the big tent party anyway?

Regardless of who won the most, why is DNC's power more important than the voters?  

by manny 2008-01-29 06:08PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

Exactly.

As Pat Buchanan just pointed out, God I can't believe I'm citing him, the Republican party handled this much better than the Democratic party. They penalized FL but still made sure their voice was counted. When the DNC stripped ALL of the delegates, they just invited this to happen, especially after allowing IA and NH to move their dates up. There's only one person to Blame and thats Howard Dean.

Look I'm a Dean supporter, I think he should stay chairman of the DNC, but he screwed the pooch big time on this one.

Part of me can't help but wonder how much his feud with the Clinton's influenced his decision...

by world dictator 2008-01-29 06:48PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

Feel free to send Donna Brazile a thank you note.

by Denny Crane 2008-01-29 07:56PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

Speaking of Donna "Neutral My Ass" Brazille, she was one of many pundits tonight who looked like they had just thrown up a little bit in their mouths.

by hwc 2008-01-29 11:18PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

i thought she was hitting the sauce

by sepulvedaj3 2008-01-30 06:38AM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

For what? Did I miss something?

by lonnette33 2008-01-30 04:03AM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

Image and video hosting by TinyPic

by Steve M 2008-01-29 06:13PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

"we will together not only take back the White House, but take back our country."

The only hope? Hillary is so deep into Corporate contributions that the military-industrial complex is probably neutral as to whether she, or McCain, would send them more Defense Department contracts. No foreign policy differences here. Stay the course, bomb Iranian nuclear facilities, stalemate in Israel-Palestine for another 8 years.

On the domestic scene, Corporatism likely reigns on both sides, i.e., Hillary versus McCain, although McCain has some catching up to do.

by shergald 2008-01-30 02:26AM | 0 recs
I hope she hurts Obama

I mean I hope she really kicks him in the ballz.  He is so arrogant and not all that enegetic of a campaigner.  He is not as lazy as Fred, but he isn't far off.

by dpANDREWS 2008-01-29 06:19PM | 0 recs
Re: I hope she hurts Obama

Hey, cool it.

by Jerome Armstrong 2008-01-29 06:20PM | 0 recs
I have put up with the Obama stuff since summer

Ragging on the 90s.  Ragging on the 60s.

The 90s were good times.  I came of age in the 90s.  I know the 60s to be an important time in the history of this nation.  Not just because of civil rights, or voting rights, because regular folks found out they could speak truth to power.   Obama spits on the 60s and 90s.

Obama hasn't cooled it.  He has fueled it.  He has made this campaign about not only race (again I assert that the day after NH when Jessie Jackson Jr., an offical member of the Obama campaign, said Clinton didn't cry for Katrina victims, that race was inserted), he has made it about a generational divide.

Whether you are 15 or 55 or 75 years of age,you should take pride in the 60s and the 90s if you are a Democrat.

Obama has gotten a free pass from the media, but I do not intend to give him one.  He can talk about Republican ideas all he wants, and how he feels about them, I will vote for the real Democrat in the race, Hillary Clinton.

Obama hasn't run a good campaign at all.  He still hasn't told us why anyon should vote for him.  He blew a breajway towchdown run in NH by fumbling at the 5 yard line.  If not for the corporate media he'd be nowhere.

by dpANDREWS 2008-01-29 06:34PM | 0 recs
I support Clinton too, but

your posts would be more effective if they weren't so over-the-top.  I admire your enthusiasm, but the goal is to convince people and your discursive strategies may end up alienating more.

by steveinohio 2008-01-29 06:44PM | 0 recs
Re: I support Clinton too, but

may?

by HSTruman 2008-01-29 06:48PM | 0 recs
Re: I have put up with the Obama stuff since summe

Hey! Don't spit on the 70's.  The best music is in the 70's.  Miggle, snort gurgle poo... oops that's just gibberish.  Sad when a post degenerates into gibberish.

by msstaley 2008-01-29 07:57PM | 0 recs
Re: I have put up

Forget it!  We had the 80's- Madonna, Michael Jackson, Janet, Whitney, even Elton was still doing good tunes- Ronald Reagan and Bush stunk- but Dallas was one hell of a show!

by reasonwarrior 2008-01-29 08:11PM | 0 recs
Re: I hope she hurts Obama

One thing to notice is that Obama outperformed Florida polling by a good ten plus points.  Extrapolate that to a national trend and we have a race.

by Todd Bennett 2008-01-29 06:38PM | 0 recs
Re: I hope she hurts Obama

I'll extrapolate that if you also extrapolate Obama's deficit among hispanics, white's, and hell...lets throw in Independents too

by world dictator 2008-01-29 06:51PM | 0 recs
Re: I hope she hurts Obama

That is some good spin there.  Fact is really that the polling we have seen came to pass almost to a T:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/ 2008/president/fl/florida_democratic_pri mary-261.html

The RCP averages showed:

Clinton 47.8%

Obama 29%

Clinton got 50% of the vote, Obama got 33%.  Both outperformed their polls by a small amount, but the contest came in almost exactly as predicted in the polls.  

That means that moving forward the national polls and also what we are seeing in the Feb. 5 polls will probably be telling.   Given the way the demographics are shaping up here, Obama will probably be in a pickle come Feb. 6.

by georgep 2008-01-29 07:36PM | 0 recs
Re: I hope she hurts Obama

The two polls I saw had Clinton up an average of 26 points.  Rasmussen 47-25, ARG 57-27.  There was no intent to spin.

by Todd Bennett 2008-01-29 07:58PM | 0 recs
Re: I hope she hurts Obama

There were more.  One of the latest polls, the Strategic Vision poll, showed a 13% race.  In that Clinton did better than her poll and Obama did 3% below what that poll predicted.  

by georgep 2008-01-29 08:30PM | 0 recs
Re: I hope she hurts Obama

What?  What poll are you looking at?

by Denny Crane 2008-01-29 07:58PM | 0 recs
Re: I hope she hurts Obama

Heh, read the post above you and take a breather. They are both good candidates and campaigners.

by animated 2008-01-29 06:28PM | 0 recs
Re: I hope she hurts Obama

Dp, you're in fine form tonight.

We need a mojo rating for non-troll idiocy.

by desmoulins 2008-01-29 07:59PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

Wow dp you hate some serious hate for Obama.  

by Socks The Cat 2008-01-29 06:20PM | 0 recs
Watching MSNBC

Kinda weird when the guy with the best handle on Hispanic voters is Pat Buchanan.

by Shawn 2008-01-29 06:30PM | 0 recs
DUDE!

I was signed on to JUST point that out!

by world dictator 2008-01-29 06:43PM | 0 recs
Re: Watching MSNBC

I think Pat is a smart guy. I know many of his ideas are out there but his analysis is much more salient then the bulk of MSNBC people.

by kristoph 2008-01-29 07:56PM | 0 recs
Re: Watching MSNBC

I had this same conversation a few months ago with a friend of mine who supports Obama and Edwards on alternate days. We both found ourselves agreeing with Buchanan on the McLaughlin Group far too often for our own comfort.

by Denny Crane 2008-01-29 08:02PM | 0 recs
Re: Watching MSNBC

Pat seems to be the fairest person on MSNBC to Hillary. Weird!

by georgiast 2008-01-29 08:12PM | 0 recs
Re: Watching MSNBC

He is just not biased.

by kristoph 2008-01-29 08:37PM | 0 recs
Re: Watching MSNBC

Craig Crawford seems to make a lot of sense much of the time as well

by NYMARJ 2008-01-29 08:42PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

MSNBC is trying to play-up the disparity between Black and Latino support for Clinton and Obama in the Super Tuesday states.  I think they need to knock it off.  Its not positive nor constructive.

by nzubechukwu 2008-01-29 06:36PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

You know your in trouble as a network when Pitchfork Pat is the person who gives the least biased political analysis.

by kristoph 2008-01-29 08:38PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

Truth be told, were this candidate anyone other than Clinton, her massive win--she is likely to EXCEED one million votes, far more so than any other candidate on the ballot in Florida, including GOP honey John McCain--would be the BIG news.  

Indeed, it might be the ONLY news.

Those numbers portend very well for her going into Super Tuesday.  

It is now apparent that Obama wins among African-Americans, college youth and anti-Clinton "indies"--but that rock solid never wavering Democrats (aside from African-Americans) are very firmly in the Clinton column.

Which is as it should be.  

Bill Clinton was the only twice-elected Democratic president since FDR.  He was the ONLY Democrat to leave office with above 70% approval ratings--since the death of JFK.  And he was the ONLY Democrat to properly call elections.

Now, let us consider Obama's supporters: Ted Kennedy, the Kennedy brother who LOST in 1980; John Kerry, whom Ted campaigned for in 2004, and whose campaign was one of the worst managed in history; Bill Bradley, who LOST to Bill Clinton; Caroline Kennedy, the "limousine liberal" who has about as much in common with "common people" as country club golfers do with their caddies; and a host of other hardly relevant, almost lost-in-the-shuffle governors and senators.

And of course, we have the biggest loser of them all in the Obama camp--Howard Dean, who has infuriated two of the most important states (far more important than the heretofore "contested" states) by disenfranchisng 1,400,000 REAL voters.

All the MSM cheers on Obama.  All the MSM detests Bill and Hillary.

Foreigners wonder why.  Why the most successful American president of the past fifty years, and the most gifted political tandem of our time, are relegated by the American media to second class status in favor of a three-year Senate neophyte.

They wonder: what is all the enthusiasm about?  "Change" has been uttered by the man so often it has become a cliche; and without any substantive discussion of how he would accomplish anything.

The GOP gathers around to anoint a dinosaur, John McCain--Bush's strongest advocate.

But there are Democrats would try to dynamite from within their ranks the only successful President (and his equally accomplished wife) they have had in over forty years.

When the history of the 2008 race has been written the truth will be quite clear: it was not about McCain or Obama.  It was all about the entrenched MSM forces, and those both within and outside the Democratic Party, trying their utmost to prevent the return of the Clintons.

But they had better return--to fix up the Bush mess.  Obama's childish "change" words will do nothing.  And McCain is just more George Walker Bush.

So it is either accepting the leadership of Hillary Clinton, or being prepared for the implosion of the United States itself.  

Only competence, not just words or the old Bush ways, can fix the country now.

by lambros 2008-01-29 06:40PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

Are you now fit to label various leaders of the party as "losers" because they don't support your candidate?  Clintons uber alles (or the country will "implode")?  This is hyperbolic and distasteful.  Why are you a Democrat if its ranks are filled with losers?

by rfahey22 2008-01-29 06:55PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

I think Ted is ok. I think he has his own plans for Obama but that's politics for you.

Kerry, on the other hand, is certainly a looser. This year, on his progressive agenda, is an $8 million earmark for an upgrade to an airport in a town where he has his vacation home. One guess who is the most frequent user of said airport.

by kristoph 2008-01-29 08:41PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

I find your victimization of the Clintons pathetic at best.

First of all, Hillary is NOT Bill, and does not have the luxury of being him, and will not be equated to him. Hillary has a lot of negatives to deal with, and she had better stop with the entitlement that she somehow "deserves" to be president "just 'cuz" she's a Clinton. No, what Bill Clinton has said these past few weeks has made him look like a complete ass, and I am very upset with him, he has only trashed his presidency, and not helped the Dem candidate at all. He has been quite nasty and unstatesmanlike, and frankly has lied about Obama not being against the Iraq War from the start. Meanwhile, Hillary has been one of the most hawkish senators on Iraq, has not apologized for her vote authorizing the war, and has only come out against it since running for President. She smacks me at this point as being opportunistic and slick. And don't even get me started on her self-congratulatory speech in Florida, making her look like even more of an ass. As for the Kennedy's, they have been nothing but the picture of grace. Caroline's speech was nothing but eloquent. And that family have always stood up for the working-class, as well as suffered untold tragedy. No, Obama has that something that is magic, and I wish more people could see it and run with it. He truly is progressive, too, for gays, civil rights, technology and a whole range of issues. He has the potential to become a transformational candidate and win big, and get lots done. People like you would rather sabotage that in favor of someone who turns off half the population and probably would hurt down-ticket candidates. Hmm, who's the one candidate who will be more likely to take more independent voters from McCain. It ain't Hillary. If she's nominated at this point, it's only going to be an uphill battle, not only losing independents but Democrats as well. Fucking congratulations!

by jsedlock 2008-01-29 07:16PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

And another thing, Lambros. Did you see her on CNN tonight, going on about how she's going to use the "momentum" of her Florida win, a state no one could campaign in for months, to boost her campaign going into next Tues? Where was Obama? Not doing this pathetic grandstanding. She's alienating more and more voters but the sad truth is she'll probably get the nomination anyway, and then lose to fucking Saint McCain who this stupid fucking media will anoint even though he's dubya's BFF and will keep us in Iraq for his "thousand year Reich!" What arrogance she has! What entitlement! God-damn it!

by jsedlock 2008-01-29 07:22PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

Ah yes, the impeccable logic of the Hillary doubter: "She's alienating more and more voters but the sad truth is she'll probably get the nomination anyway" by winning more votes.

Generally, if you alienate voters you get fewer votes, but somehow all the alienating she is doing is driving record turnout in each state.

The sad truth is not many people hate Hillary, and she doesn't need them to win in November. There are millions of new voters who absolutely love Hillary that she will bring to the polls who, with all of the Democrats who love her and Bill, will give her a solid win.

by souvarine 2008-01-29 07:31PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

ARROGANT?  That is super-rich coming from an Obama supporter.  Overall he is a likeable guy, and he has certain desireable qualities in a candidate, but he not only is thin on substance (MY OPINION) but has an absolute lock on ARROGANCE.  A certain amount is healthy, you can't win without a certain amount of cockyness and belief in yourself, but Obama is taking that to the extreme position.   I doubt it would by itself cause his eventual loss of the nomination (there are many other factors) but is something very noticeable.  I thought it funny that you actually consider Hillary ARROGANT.  She is more the "nose to the grindstone" type than you probably think.  

by georgep 2008-01-29 07:43PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

Over at Hillaryis44, we call him "Precious".

by hwc 2008-01-29 11:20PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

Plus, it really frosts Precious' ass when he gets beat by a girl.

by hwc 2008-01-29 11:22PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

Excellent post!  One of the best I've seen... keep it up!

by votethegopout 2008-01-29 09:44PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

This is one 60 year old Democrat that will NOT vote for Billary linton and her politics of old.  I will stay at home first...which is something that I have never missed doing in my entire life......I dont like her!!

by DemoDan 2008-01-29 06:47PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

and I have an equal measure of displeasure with Obama.  I think he has run a disgracefully selfish and divisive campaign, starting months ago when Hillary had absolutely no interest in bickering with Democrats or fighting their gutter politics.

by enthusiast 2008-01-29 06:57PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

And now it's Hillary and Bill's turn to "run a disgracefully selfish and divisive campaign," as they have shown over and over again these past few weeks, isn't it? It is the entitled Clintons once again claiming victimhood, once again getting away with not calling it "campaigning" in Florida because it was only a fundraiser. How pathetic! Why do Democrats want to keep losing!!!

by jsedlock 2008-01-29 07:33PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

Obamanuts have their own hollier than thou attitude. It's really not worth wasting time on trying to talk about it.

by werd2406 2008-01-29 07:48PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

I am not one of those "Obamanuts." I am actually voting for Edwards next Tuesday. I am, however, extremely turned off by the Clintons' heavy-handed tactics and their overall entitlement.

by jsedlock 2008-01-29 07:55PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

You sure make up a lot of stuff, though.  Can't you just get yourself a bit up to speed here before you sling all these "charges," which end up being plain nonsense?  For instance, you claim that Hillary campaigning in Florida broke the pledge, while ignoring the fact that Obama attended numerous fundraisers in Florida himself.   Consequently you have to take him to task for having broken the pledge as well.   However, THAT turns out to be nonsense as well, since fundraisers were specifically exempt from the pledge.    

by georgep 2008-01-29 08:25PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

You are so pathetic. I never said she "campaigned" in Florida. She did do a fundraiser there, so I suppose that violates the spirit of not campaigning. It sort of reminds you of when Bill said, "it depends on what the meaning of is, is." There is just no end to the entitlement, is there?

by jsedlock 2008-01-29 07:49PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

Both Obama and Clinton did numerous fundraisers in Florida.  It's not against the rules and neither of them claimed it was.

by Steve M 2008-01-29 07:52PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

Actually...you pretty much insinuated she campaigned there.

by werd2406 2008-01-29 07:56PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

Also you know about the ads Obama ran that violated the rules, right?

Clinton gave him a pass on those and did not run any of her own.

So let's not call the kettle black here.

by kristoph 2008-01-29 08:01PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

Obama did fundraisers in Florida.  So, is he exempt from your rule to claim that "the spirit of the pledge was broken" because you like his speaking style so much?  

by georgep 2008-01-29 08:21PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

your ignorance is breathtaking... and typical of the Obama folks.  Your guy had fundraisers in FL too, you idiot.  Stop spreading your lies about Hillary.  You just prove that the "unity" campaign of Obama is just a bunch of bullshyt.

by votethegopout 2008-01-29 09:48PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

Where do you get off calling Obama GOP lite when it was Hillary that the president of PFLAG refused to endorse because she wants to let parents decide, not the schools, whether tolerance courses should be taught to teach Jonny and Susie that their friends' gay parents aren't weirdos? Where do you get off calling Obama GOP lite when just the other day he spoke to at a church saying African Americans have scorned "our gay brothers and sisters" for too long, reaching out to a straight audience on behalf of such a marginalized constituency such as the GLBT community, a community that saw nothing but death and misery in 1980's New York and San Francisco while Ronald Reagan was denying that it was an epidemic. God-damn you!

by jsedlock 2008-01-29 07:28PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

I'm sure the Mark Penns of the Clinton camp sold you on every one of those lies, and god-damn them for doing that. You see, it's not really Hillary I don't like, it's the people surrounding her: the aristocratic, entitled DC insiders who are now of thinking of only the nastiest of lies about Obama. As if Obama himself said anything about the MLK-LBJ flap, and not our idiotic media. And it was her campaign spreading the nasty lies about him being a Muslim extremist, and let's be honest, it wasn't about him being a Muslim, not true, but about him being an extremist with ties to madrassas and all that connotes. You really are sad, you know that? Because, unlike me, who plans to vote and support whoever our nominee is, you probably will stay him if it's Obama, letting King McCain usher in a new hell of fascism. All because of your pettiness and nastiness and willingness to be so duped with Rovian lies. And you really are projecting when you say Obama is using Rovian tactics, when Mark Penn is the displaying all of that nastiness for all to see.

Really sad.

by jsedlock 2008-01-29 07:44PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

bravo!

by votethegopout 2008-01-29 09:46PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

Held the fort, or spurred the ascendence?  I think Bill Clinton's legacy is far more ambiguous - the scandals and triangulation strategy led the Democrats into a wilderness from which the party is now finally emerging.

by rfahey22 2008-01-29 06:51PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

It's funny, anyone who looks can see that the policies Obama, Edwards and Clinton have proposed are all very similar, the policy consensus of the Democratic party is remarkable. Anyone who was politically conscious in the 70s and 80s knows that this was not the case then, Ted Kennedy was a major player in the divisions within the Democratic party in those decades. Lastly, anyone who compares, say, Obama's policies to Bill Clinton's immediately sees a striking resemblance.

Who do you suppose is responsible for the party's policy unanimity?

by souvarine 2008-01-29 07:13PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread
Definitely held the fort.
Blaming 94 on Clinton would be comforting but false. The Democratic learship in congress at rhe time did as much to undermine the Clintons as the Republicans did (if more subtly). I'm not saying that the culture clash between the Clintons and the establishment was all one sided but the Clintons were treated as a younger version of Carter.
After 94 the party began recovering seats and was on pace to regain solid control in 2002 except for the rallying effect of 9/11.
Lets face it the establishment (including the democratic party establishment) has never liked the Clintons except for the money and votes they brought in.
by Judeling 2008-01-29 07:40PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

I remember the CBC undermining Clinton by supporting a single-payer health care system.  Yeah, that darn CBC, if only they had gotten out of the way.

by msstaley 2008-01-29 08:04PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread
Good. Then you remember John Breaux and Clinton Lite.
And so you see how entrenched Democratic interests attacked from both sides on that issue and others.
My own self defeating example is the stimulus portion of the initial economic plan. So in the end the democratic congress passed all of the pain without any of the gain and delaying the visible economic impact allowing the Republicans to claim the credit when the macro effects were visible later.
by Judeling 2008-01-30 04:44AM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

Clinton has a legacy?  I wonder what it is.  I know about the losing Congress to the Republican things but I find it hard to see his legacy at this point in time.  Gee, after only a single 4 year term President Carter still has a legacy of peace between Egypt and Israel, the EPA, Dept Ed, Dept Energy, and human rights as something for the world to be concerned about.  Hmm.... what is Bill Clinton's legacy....Hillary?

by msstaley 2008-01-29 08:03PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

Bah. Who needs facts when you have HOPE!

;-)

by kristoph 2008-01-29 08:35PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

If it doesn't last beyond his Presidency it isn't a legacy.  What happened to that surplus?  It became a huge tax cut to the rich.  Longest period of economic expansion in history?  You notice that when Al Gore ran he didn't actually take credit for that, it sure bugged me.  If you are part of the administration during good economic times you claim credit even if you aren't responsible for it(and Clinton wasn't aside from the impact of lowering deficits on the economy).  Let the other side argue about how changes in technology were responsible.  I'll give you the Balkans but then we have to look at Somalia and Rawanda?  Yep, Bill did a lot and you weren't paying attention.  He appointed a Republican Sec of Defense.  Wow, I guess Democrats can't handle national security, at least Bill didn't think so.  Getting tired of the Drug ads and hard booze ads, that's a Clinton legacy.  Remember Bill attacking the poor once again playing right into the right's hands by making the poor evil and anyone who wants to go after poverty a weirdo?  Remember losing Congress, another Clinton legacy.

by msstaley 2008-02-03 06:48AM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

And yet isn't the DLC a part of his legacy?  When voters are given a choice between a Republican and a Republican-lite, they will choose the real deal every time.  This was a particularly dangerous leadership model since Clinton himself never won a majority of the popular vote, splitting it between himself, Bush/Dole, and Perot.  Had Clinton not become radioactive by the end of his second term, Gore could have run on the achievements of the previous eight years and soundly defeated Bush.  Our historic defeats in the House in 1994 were also partly a response to his presidency.  In your post you could have traced the history of the Republican Party all the way back to Lincoln, but that wouldn't change the fact that Clinton accelerated several of the trends you identified.

We had a strong economy for much of Clinton's presidency.  But then, how much control a president has over the economy has been debated for years and the prosperity simply hasn't lasted.  Apart from the Family and Medical Leave Act and imperiled SCHIP, I can't really think of any notable policies or programs that survived his presidency.  Militarily he was fairly interventionist, though the deaths of 18 soldiers in Somalia effectively prevented our involvement in Rwanda, which saw some of the greatest human rights atrocities in world history.  

by rfahey22 2008-01-29 09:07PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

He would make zero sense as VP for Hillary.  Wesley Clark and Ted Strickland are fighting each other in a death match for that right.

by Socks The Cat 2008-01-29 06:53PM | 0 recs
speaking of Wes Clark....

I would love to see him take a more active and visible role in the Clinton campaign!

Wes would be a wonderful VP!

by enthusiast 2008-01-29 06:58PM | 0 recs
If Obama isn't the VP

there goes the African-American vote.  Very few Blacks will be voting for the Clintons in the Fall.

McCain then wins.

by puma 2008-01-29 07:37PM | 0 recs
Re: If Obama isn't the VP

Your opinion poll of Black America may have missed a few houses.

by Steve M 2008-01-29 07:47PM | 0 recs
Re: If Obama isn't the VP

Baloney.  The AA vote is extremely reliable and will be there full throttle for Hillary.   Remember the way Jesse Jackson felt he was cheated out of a VP spot in 1988, even though he had a ton of delegates and was pushing heavily for it?  That created a lot of intense identity politics manyfold what we have seen here so far.  Did the AA vote go elsewhere or not show?  Nope.  Dukakis got as many votes from AAs as Democrats ever had.   And he was not nearly as popular with AAs as Hillary and Bill Clinton are.  

You are just trying to create stuff where there is none (or not nearly as much as you like to believe.)  Sure, Obama gets a majority of the AA vote, but that does not mean that all AAs are against Clinton or that her favorability amongst AAs is in the dumpster.  

by georgep 2008-01-29 07:50PM | 0 recs
No they won't

There are many articles which say that African-Americans are pissed at the Clintons right now with the cherry on top being the "Jesse Jackson" comment.

One of the reasons why 70-80% of African-Americans vote for Obama is that we have moved away from the Clintons.

If Obama isn't on the ticket with Clinton if she wins the primary, she can kiss a large percentage of African-Americans support good-bye.

by puma 2008-01-30 12:02AM | 0 recs
Prime example

of what I am talking about how African-Americans are turning away from the Clintons.

CLINTONS STRAIN RELATIONSHIP WITH BLACKS

http://www.inrich.com/cva/ric/news.apx.- content-articles-RTD-2008-01-30-0138.htm l

"...These developments represents a chill in the romance between Black America and the Clintons that candy, flower, and promises might not be able to thaw."

If HRC tries to do a power grab for the nomination at the convention with Michigan and Floridian delegates which then makes her the nominee and she doesn't make Obama the Vice President, I predict that she will lose a vast majority of African-American support resulting in her loss in the general.

by puma 2008-01-30 12:27AM | 0 recs
Re: If Obama isn't the VP

Seriously?  I think you underestimate the African-American vote.  Whoever the woman from Vanderbilt was last night said the same thing but also included the youth and Hispanic vote, which is just ridiculous.

by ejintx 2008-01-30 06:23AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama will not be Hillary's VP...

I think there is still a good chance he will be the VP candidate, especially if the delegate tally is close.

by kristoph 2008-01-29 08:43PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread


I heard on the news that Wesley Clark was on a list of possibilities for Hillary's VP.

I think it's a great idea, as I'm sure John McCain (assuming he is the Republican nominee, which it looks like he probably will be) will try to make Hillary look weak on national defense. Hillary can block McCain's ace card by having General Clark as her running mate. Not that Hillary would need the credentials, as she has stated on numerous occasions that she takes the defense of our country very seriously but wants to fight the right war against Al Qaeda (in Afghanistan).

It should be exciting to see who Hillary chooses!

by EightMoreYears 2008-01-29 11:10PM | 0 recs
Re: Lambros thank you for the post

DemoDan, go ahead  and stay home.  So you can watch more soldiers die in Iraq and the Nations economic woes continue to plummet.  Im sick of these "I will never vote for Hillary voters."  Guys are country is  in so much trouble and yet this ignorance is so bliss.

by nzubechukwu 2008-01-29 07:01PM | 0 recs
Re: Lambros thank you for the post

Well, I would ultimately vote for either in the general, though I spoke with someone this evening who is voting for Hillary, but will vote McCain if Obama is nominated.  How's that for a mindfuck?

Anyway, I think both groups have individuals who are a little overheated right now.

by rfahey22 2008-01-29 07:08PM | 0 recs
Re: Lambros thank you for the post

I am one of them. And it is not a race thing. It is a McClurkin thing. Any candidate who throws lesbians and gays under the bus, as Obama did, looses my vote. Period. Maybe, best to say, it is a gay thing.

by DaleA 2008-01-29 07:44PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

Yes, very true...right now the Obama and the Clinton camps are in a very heated contests leading supporters of both to be a little too harsh on eachother. This is just the nature of politics. Once the nomination is settled, there will be a time of brooding for the losers supporters then they will join they fold like they vowed not to do ;)

by werd2406 2008-01-29 07:29PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

we will together not only take back the White House, but take back our country.

First time as tragedy, second time as farce.

by desmoulins 2008-01-29 08:00PM | 0 recs
Funniest Article of Hillary's win!

This article totally cracked me up!!!

MUCH ADO ABOUT NOT MUCH

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con tent/article/2008/01/29/AR2008012902998. html?hpid=topnews

"Cheering supporters?  Check.  Election returns on the projection screen?  Check.  Andrea Mitchell and Candy Crowley doing stand-ups?  Check and check.  In fact, the only piece missing from Hillary Clinton's Florida victory party here Tuesday night was a victory...."

Hilarious!!!

by puma 2008-01-29 08:02PM | 0 recs
Re: Funniest Article of Hillary's win!

puma I admire you for your tenacity and the fact that you are polite in your trolling for your candidate

hope we're on the same side one of these days

:-)

by kristoph 2008-01-29 08:46PM | 0 recs
It's the number one viewed article

on the WaPo website.

That says it all...

by puma 2008-01-30 12:04AM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

I know it says Open Thread but I just want to clarify.......this is the Snark Thread right?

This is where we are supposed to be as snarky and as disagreeable as we can be so we get it all out of our system then we go on to be rational and serious?  If not, I have been doing it wrong.

by msstaley 2008-01-29 08:10PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

do not let them bother you.

Clinton people on here are very unfortunate.

by hawkjt 2008-01-29 09:50PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

As a Florida voter in South Florida, I take exception to the idea that Obama did not campaign in Florida. We saw his TEEVEE commercials seceral times. As for the DNC not seating our delegates, I find it very disturbing to be punished for what our State legislature (Republican majority) did in moving the primary date up. BUT, I'm actually glad they did. Otherwise, the silly little bitty states of Iowa, New Hampshire and South carolina with their backwards ("we don't want no brown people") ideas would have way too much influence. But the worst is the damn coverage by the media, especially MSNBC. People, NBC IS General Electric, war profiteer! Turn the channel.

by glennmcgahee 2008-01-30 04:39AM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

While I agree with you that the DNC has acted inappropriately toward Florida verses the GOP, I take offense to the view that Iowa, New Hampshire, Nevada and South Carolina are backward.  Iowa puts more money into education than many other states and is among the top ten most educated states in America - Iowa City has the most Ph.D.s per capita in the world.  New Hampshire similarly boasts a number of well-spoken intelligent people.

Nevada and South Carolina were meant specifically to appeal to minorities.

I have lived in Iowa and South Carolina, and I take offense.  It's a tragedy that the DNC did this to Florida but don't disrespect other states in the process.

by ejintx 2008-01-30 06:29AM | 0 recs

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