Republican Fox News Debate Thread

Anyone care to document the atrocities? The GOP debate is airing live on FoxNews and streaming live HERE now. I'm heading out so, sadly, won't be able to follow along, but let us know what they're saying in the comments. And if  you'd rather follow along with Marc Ambinder, that way you won't have to take another shower today. (Bumped -- Jonathan)

Tags: 2008 Presidential election, Fox News, Republican debate (all tags)



Here is some food for thought

Romney's company buys clear channel [now with FURTHER CLARIFIED and VALUE ADDED INFO!] /2007/12/romney-buys-cle.html

by kevin22262 2008-01-10 04:30PM | 0 recs
Re: Republican Fox News Debate Thread

This is like "A Very Special Survivor".

Huckabee continues to sound the best.

Fred Thompson should really have a nickname like "blue balls".  I can see what the right wing bloggers went gaga over him.  He always sounds like he's just about ready to sound like Ronald Reagan.  He sounds like you're just about to get that happy, comfortable, drawling mom and apple brand of conservatism.... Then he trails off into an inane claptrap that's so disjointed, so minimalist, or so just completely uninterested.

Now Ron Paul is debating the GOP moderator.

All the Obama, Edwards, and Clinton supporters should really be watching this... It's a health diversion... I think we all could use the giggles.

by zonk 2008-01-10 04:31PM | 0 recs
Re: Republican Fox News Debate Thread

I'm not listening to the debate, but I'm reading zonk's analysis and laughing!

Can Ron Paul's nickname be "Tiny Atoll"?  Pretty please?  When he comes into the room, can we play "Tiny Bubbles"?  Seems like a little Lawrence Welk would fit.

by The lurking ecologist 2008-01-10 05:09PM | 0 recs
Re: Republican Fox News Debate Thread

They don't realise it but he's the Republican's answer to Mike Gravel.  They just couldn't let his post-modernist, surreal candidacy go unchallenged.

by Shaun Appleby 2008-01-10 07:07PM | 0 recs
Note to Fred:

Republicans who most certainly are NOT frisky should not use the word "frisky".

by zonk 2008-01-10 04:38PM | 0 recs
Impressions on Rudy

Rudy's only chance -- if it still exists -- is to play law-and-order, I'll kill all the islamofascists tough guy.

He's not projecting that tonight so far.  He sounds almost like a technocrat.  

If Thompson is "blue balls", Rudy is the seesaw -- whipsawing from fear-mongering crazy man to jabbering technocrat.

This is my goal... a new nickname for all the GOPers.

Two down - 4 to go.

by zonk 2008-01-10 04:41PM | 0 recs
Re: Impressions on Rudy

Rudy is the 'Godfather.'  Just wait.

by Shaun Appleby 2008-01-10 07:08PM | 0 recs
Ron Paul


The moderator asks about the recent Hormuz incident.  Standard GOP talking points -- but certainly no one singing "bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb-bomb Iran" --

Paul just goes OFF - you'd have think all the other GOP candidates just whipped out their sabers and yelped "To the ramparts!"

I mean - the moderator is right...Ron Paul is the argument against a point never made.

by zonk 2008-01-10 04:45PM | 0 recs
Re: Republican Fox News Debate Thread

My goodness Ron Paul is cooky. A friend of mine is a "truther" and I accept his stuff with a grain of salt, but Ron Paul is just coming off as the crazy uncle who makes his own sausage.

by dannybauder 2008-01-10 04:48PM | 0 recs
Re: Republican Fox News Debate Thread

Yeah... a sea of crazy wrapping tiny little atolls of sanity.

by zonk 2008-01-10 04:51PM | 0 recs
Re: Republican Fox News Debate Thread

You're a honk.  Would love to see a debate between Paul vs Kucinich, they would agree about the things nobody else agrees with them about and tear each other new you-know-whats on the few things they have in common with their respective parties.  Could Jon Stewart host a debate do you think?  He wouldn't need any writers, that's for sure.  Well, maybe Ray Bradbury but he's dead.

by Shaun Appleby 2008-01-10 07:14PM | 0 recs
More vast overreach analysis

This thread is mine!  All mine! I will analyze for myself.

John McCain seems strangely subdued - really lacking energy, almost monotone.  It's not confidence or relief that it's back in the race -- it's almost like relief that he wasn't drummed out of the race before now.  

Maybe I'm reading too much into tone and body language... hell the man is seventy-something... but he just seems like he's satisfied with getting a win... anything more is gravy.

by zonk 2008-01-10 04:51PM | 0 recs

Ron Paul just woke McCain up, I guess.

You know what can make John McCain REALLY sound like the reasonable moderate the media pretends he is?

Ron Paul.

by zonk 2008-01-10 04:53PM | 0 recs
Re: OK

Actually, I thought that was Ron Paul first decent moment of the night. And, McCain's response was weak.

Other than this, however, Paul has been sucking it all night. Fox moderators are not ideal for him (that is, they enjoy making him seem like the looney guy on stage--which he can be, at times).

by DPW 2008-01-10 04:55PM | 0 recs
A Theory

I really think that it might very well have been the national GOP and the other candidates that wanted Ron Paul in this debate.

He's provided a nice punching bag for everyone else.  It's as if the GOP team failed miserably against live pitching -- so they decided to go back to using the batting T.

Paul does occasionally make too much sense for the GOP... like I said, tiny little atolls of sanity in a sea of crazy.

by zonk 2008-01-10 05:01PM | 0 recs
Freddy T

Blue Balls again!

Here's my line, here's my red meat... now watch while I muck up the rest of this answer.

by zonk 2008-01-10 04:55PM | 0 recs

Foreign policy is like 3-D chess... which apparently is straight-from-the-ivory-tower neocon foreign policy v2.0.  

Mitt didn't quite provide release notes on what makes his v2.0 different from the beta we got from Bush... I think they actually just changed the marketing -- all reported bugs have now been renamed as "features".

by zonk 2008-01-10 04:58PM | 0 recs
Re: Romney

'3D-chess' is code for 'more than you can or care to understand.'  Dangerous concept for the voting public.

by Shaun Appleby 2008-01-10 07:16PM | 0 recs
Break Time

My impression so far.

Fred sounded better in the second half, but overall -- is still embarrassing himself and all the RW bloggers that tabbed him as a savior.

Rudy seems really off his game.

Huckabee's been solid - but I think more because no one's been able to tie him up close.  I think only Fred really went after him -- and that's a big ol' hanging breaking ball, thigh high.

Ron Paul has been Ron Paul... I'm wondering if perhaps he hasn't actually gotten the most time in thus far?   Like I said above -- it's almost like Fox, the GOP, and the other candidates said to themselves "Geez.  This is a disaster.  let's bring Ron Paul in."

McCain has been uneven... subdued.

Romney?  He DOES sound like a CEO.  My company's CEO does an annual slide show and year in review.  It's incredibly boring, incredibly full of meaningless MBA drivel.

Winner so far?

Probably Huckabee.

by zonk 2008-01-10 05:06PM | 0 recs
Re: Republican Fox News Debate Thread

Wow, Rudy takes on McCain on Iraq. That will be a nice fight if...well, we all know. Those two guys are nasty and I want to see them fight.

by ND1979 2008-01-10 05:07PM | 0 recs


He said "Republican Principles" NOT "Conservative Principles".   Is this a factor of ditching SC and going all in for MI?

Does "Republican" play better than "Conservative" in MI?

by zonk 2008-01-10 05:08PM | 0 recs
Re: Romney

"Does Republican play better than Conservative in Michigan?"

I'd say probably not.  Lots of Social Cons in Michigan.  Lots and lots and lots.  They chose Pat Robertson for god's sake in 1988.  Used to be some paleocons there, but most of them moved south after they retired and the rest died with Gerry Ford.

by The lurking ecologist 2008-01-10 05:14PM | 0 recs
Re: Romney

But Willard can't get those votes.  He is after the rest of the GOP in the state.

by NCJim 2008-01-11 05:11AM | 0 recs
Re: Romney

From CNN today

"(Gary) Glenn is a prime example of the sort of well-connected activist that has been essential to Huckabee's success. The president of Michigan's chapter of Don Wildmon's American Family Association, he co-wrote the state's successful anti-gay marriage amendment, which drew close to 60 percent of the vote in 2004. That effort also updated his already-packed addressbook with a new group of politically-savvy conservative Christian contacts eager to assist a presidential candidate who backed his own state's version of that measure.

Glenn also represents another key demographic in the Huckabee grassroots army -- home schoolers, mostly Christian conservatives, who have overwhelmingly supported the former governor. In Michigan, the group is politically active, and large, with thousands attending the community's annual state convention."

by The lurking ecologist 2008-01-11 09:00AM | 0 recs
John McCain

just invoked Jack Abramoff!!!

"Ask Jack Abramoff...mumble...mumble...fumble...bu t you'll have to do it during visiting hours."

I'm not sure I see the point of that.  I imagine any GOP voter that knows who Abramoff is would probably be against it being mentioned by a GOPer.

by zonk 2008-01-10 05:10PM | 0 recs
Re: Republican Fox News Debate Thread

An Abramoff reference in the GOP debate? Never in a million yeasr will we ever hear that again. McCain's advisors are not going to like that. Even if he was super tough on that scandal.

by ND1979 2008-01-10 05:10PM | 0 recs

OK - that explains it.

I wasn't aware of just why McCain would be doing that.  Still - he made the case very poorly.  I mean...he certainly didn't put him in jail or anything.

by zonk 2008-01-10 05:15PM | 0 recs
Re: Republican Fox News Debate Thread

And he wasn't super tough.  

Mac the hack never went after any GOP politicians.

by NCJim 2008-01-11 05:12AM | 0 recs
From a strictly objective

viewpoint- I really, really like the presentation of Mike Huckabee.

He doesn't sound at all like an ideologue.  If you knew nothing about him, you'd think he was an old time southern Democrat.

Thompson just went after Huckabee again...and Huckabee just smacked him aside again.  It's almost unfair.

Geez Fred... look around... Paul's the TRE, not Huckabee.

by zonk 2008-01-10 05:14PM | 0 recs
Chest pains

For the hell of it, I surfed over to the Fox link and immediately felt my chest tighten up.  Seeing Fox in the address bar is so repulsive.

by The lurking ecologist 2008-01-10 05:20PM | 0 recs

Fox apparently just went all-in with the GOP establishment.... Question about a letter in the NYT signed by the ministers (Huck included) talking about a "wife should submit to her husband".

...and Huckabee parried it nicely.

He's good.  

That was a pitch-perfect answer on the evangelical question.  

Of course -- he didn't really answer the question -- and he won't (hopefully) get away with that in a 1 on 1 debate.

But seriously - if I didn't know better about who Huckabee was, if I didn't know better about where the evangelical movement wants to take us - I would listen to that answer and say to myself he's a pretty good guy... what's worse - I think I might start to buy into the media/secularism is picking on religion.

by zonk 2008-01-10 05:21PM | 0 recs
Re: Wow

He would NEVER say that a "Husband submits to the servant leadership of his wife, like the church submits to God".

by NCJim 2008-01-11 05:13AM | 0 recs
Re: Republican Fox News Debate Thread

Carl Cameron is one cold mofo.

On electability, "Do you have any?"

by dannybauder 2008-01-10 05:24PM | 0 recs
Re: Republican Fox News Debate Thread

And I thought that was Ron Paul's best answer of the night.

That was a clarion call to any Republican who isn't an establishment GOPer.  

by zonk 2008-01-10 05:26PM | 0 recs
And now Ron Paul...

Now Fox turns the hit machine onto Ron Paul -- and Paul also turned it back.

This must be driving the GOP establishment absolutely freaking nuts.  Scaife's gotta be having chest pains.  Coors is probably slamming vodka.  Buckley's probably pounding his head on the table.

Almost over - and so far - I say this in all honesty, Mike Huckabee and Ron Paul are the only two candidates that have really shown much.  Paul probably comes out about even -- some really crazy, some really spot on... but ultimately even.  Huck's been solid all night.

by zonk 2008-01-10 05:25PM | 0 recs

seems to have given up on Rudy.

They seem to be desperately trying to throw the game for Romney.

Amnesty up now.  First McCain... more subdued McCain... then over to Romney, where the mod might just as well have said "Senator McCain has no plan to deport 12 million illegals.  Why is he so crazy?"

...and then good ol' Fred -- Who am I!?! Why am I here?!?!  

by zonk 2008-01-10 05:29PM | 0 recs
Clear Channel Employees

Wonder how many illegal immigrants work for Clear Channel radio stations.  

by The lurking ecologist 2008-01-10 05:29PM | 0 recs
Re: Republican Fox News Debate Thread

This why McCain can't win SC. This issue is red-hot in this state and he will be easily smeared by the other candidates with mailers and backroom talk.

by ND1979 2008-01-10 05:30PM | 0 recs

Rudy gets to talk as long as he wants.

by zonk 2008-01-10 05:34PM | 0 recs
Re: Republican Fox News Debate Thread

The winner of SC has always won the nomination. Since its creation, in 1980, the winner gets the big prize. It will be nasty folks.

by ND1979 2008-01-10 05:36PM | 0 recs
Re: Republican Fox News Debate Thread

South Carolina was created in 1980?

by fbihop 2008-01-10 07:28PM | 0 recs
Re: Republican Fox News Debate Thread

My goodness, another dial-group?

by ND1979 2008-01-10 05:37PM | 0 recs
What the hell do I know

I don't really "get" any of these guys... but here are my thought/my picks:


Mike Huckabee... by far... He's dangerous because he doesn't sound like an ideologue.   Maybe this doesn't work in a GOP debate/GOP primary -- I didn't hear much red meat for the conservatives, but if you're not a GOP idealogue - he's gotta be your guy.

Romney... If he weren't such a plastic, soulless, gazillionaire -- I'd almost feel sorry for him.  Oh how the mighty have fallen.  He felt like an afterthought.

McCain... He just seemed awfully subdued.  One would think his goal tonight was to keep his NH momentum going.  He certainly didn't do that.

....and apparently -- I'm an idiot when it comes to reading the GOP voter's mind.

The focus group loved Fred Thompson, hated Ron Paul.

by zonk 2008-01-10 05:40PM | 0 recs
More thoughts...

I just don't get the Thompson love.

I think he was a bit better in the 2nd half than the first, but he's all drawl.   He doesn't even deliver his quips well half the time.  His first two answers were convoluted messes.  

Does a southern drawl really sell that well?

Of course - it seemed pretty obvious to me that Fox wanted to set up Paul as the punching bag to make the rest of the weak field look good, and everyone was given plenty of room to hit Huckabee (and McCain - at the end).... so maybe the focus group "fixed" to deliver the answer they wanted.

Since I have no supernatural powers - I don't think it's possible for me to jinx us.... but this why I don't really mind all the sniping and openly hostile warfare over this primary season.

I cannot see how ANY of our candidates - Edwards, Obama, and Clinton -- lose to ANY of these guys.  I think Huckabee would be tough -- but I don't think he's as able to get away with the obfuscation of his real reocrd and views in a one-on-one race.

by zonk 2008-01-10 05:47PM | 0 recs
Re: What the hell do I know

"The focus group loved Fred Thompson, hated Ron Paul."

The focus group always hates Ron Paul, because Fox News gets to decide who is in the focus group.

by Lex 2008-01-10 05:47PM | 0 recs
Re: What the hell do I know

Just to be an asshole, I texted for Ron Paul on the Fox poll.

by dannybauder 2008-01-10 05:50PM | 0 recs
Re: What the hell do I know


Are you getting a new one tomorrow?  Foxiness is communicable, isn't it?

by zonk 2008-01-10 05:58PM | 0 recs
Huckabee marriage answer

"Marriage is not a 50-50 proposition.  It is 100-100...All in.  This is what teaches us to love and why the institution is so important."  Paraphrase.  Nice answer, sort of.  Nice follow up question would be:

Wouldn't this lesson be good for gay people too?  Or aren't they entitled to go through the pains of marriage in order to learn how to love?

by The lurking ecologist 2008-01-10 05:42PM | 0 recs
Re: Huckabee marriage answer


Like I said - in a one-on-one, where it's not one answer among 5 candidates -- his magic bus doesn't leave the station so easily.

But in the realm of this GOP debate -- that was pretty much a flawless answer.

by zonk 2008-01-10 05:48PM | 0 recs

...and my final thoughts are that this has to be one giant freakout for the GOP.

I'd probably be putting some folks on suicide watch.

Even if the focus group was right -- does the establishment honestly think that out-of-money, no-energy, falling like a stone Fred Thompson is the best person to toss the Hail Mary pass to?

If I were a GOPer - I think I'd make my peace with Huckabee.  I think I'd take him aside, extract some promises for certain cabinet posts, and find a way to sign a truce.   He's the only hope I see for the GOP.

I don't buy into the maverick mythmaking of John McCain -- but he's got an iota of a soul and morality to him, so I probably respect him as well as I can any of these guys.   Too bad he really, really, really just looks too old.  Maybe he's been like this all season and I jsut missed it, but he seems tired.  Old.  Subdued.  Resigned.   If I had been on Mars for the last week -- I'd have thought he lost New Hampshire based on his performance tonight.

Romney is never going to catch fire.  The only way I see him winning the nod is if 1)he wins MI... and it probably takes people really pushing the crossover idea and sabotaging the GOP, 2)all the other non-Huckabee candidates drop out and endorse him.  I just can't see Romney winning in any way that doesn't require a floor fight.

by zonk 2008-01-10 05:57PM | 0 recs
Re: Republican Fox News Debate Thread

Fox News appears bent on electing Fred Thompson.  Is this an attempt to undermine Huckabee, or is this a product of the RNC's financial and political relationship to that organization?

by truthteller2007 2008-01-10 06:01PM | 0 recs
OK -- one more...

Vindication from the txtmsg poll results.

Paul ahead by a wide margin, Huckabee #2.

Thompson a close 3rd, though -- which I just don't get -- but I suspect it's just the drawl.... which is fine.  I dated a southern belle once and, though she was quite smart -- I know there were occasions when this Indiana farm boy would just sit back and listen dreamily to her inflections and accent - not hearing a word she said.  If the GOP is going to pick candidates the way I dated, well -- best of luck with that.

by zonk 2008-01-10 06:05PM | 0 recs
Re: OK -- one more...

Well, I suppose that all depends on how it turned out.

by Shaun Appleby 2008-01-10 07:24PM | 0 recs
Re: OK -- one more...


Ron Paul wins a non-scientific poll that could be freeped?  You don't say...

by fbihop 2008-01-10 07:31PM | 0 recs
Re: Republican Fox News Debate Thread

Grampa Fred is on with Sean and his bitch now.

Colmes and Fred are "arguing" about something, Fred is just making sounds. This is the way my Grandpa argues with my three-year-old brother. Yawn.

Thompson is going to do shitty in the next one, drop out and endorse Rudy. Fox is proping him up tonight to make his endorsement mean something the for the anemic Giuliani campaign.

Also, did Rudy buy time in Florida for the Super Bowl even though their primary is a week before the game?

by dannybauder 2008-01-10 06:09PM | 0 recs
Re: Republican Fox News Debate Thread

zonk -  your comments are greatly appreciated.

I cannot watch a repug debate unless its part of a drinking game.  Everytime a dem candidate, reagan, or 9/11 is mentioned, you take a drink.

by sepulvedaj3 2008-01-10 06:32PM | 0 recs
Re: Republican Fox News Debate Thread

Zonk made it for me.  I don't feel like I missed much of the debate, that's for sure and a bargain.

by Shaun Appleby 2008-01-10 07:25PM | 0 recs
Re: Republican Fox News Debate Thread

I am surprised some Dems are so scared of McCain.  That guy looks an acts 100 years old.  How is he going to act after months of campaigning?  The only candidate he could be beat is Clinton.

by skipos 2008-01-10 06:39PM | 0 recs
Re: Republican Fox News Debate Thread

huck is a neanderthal but there are few politicians as gifted in front of a camera. it's actually amazing to watch.

by highgrade 2008-01-10 06:54PM | 0 recs
Re: Republican Fox News Debate Thread

He's scary.  He's the tricky one, anything is possible.  Fair Tax is his only apparent Achilles Heel and he's committed up to his eyeballs.

by Shaun Appleby 2008-01-10 07:28PM | 0 recs
Re: Republican Fox News Debate Thread

Sarkozy doesnt leave the gossip columns

by ccokz 2008-01-10 07:42PM | 0 recs
Re: Republican Fox News Debate Thread
Just did a drive by on some "conservitive" sites...
They Loves their Fred big time
by nogo war 2008-01-10 09:02PM | 0 recs
I searched all over

for the poll results. I couldn't find it .... someone must have won that Fox didn't want to win.

by Cleveland John 2008-01-11 03:21AM | 0 recs
Re: Republican Fox News Debate Thread

Ron paul winning the tex vote: Proof that Liberals need to stop watching Fox News. We are making them money.

by ND1979 2008-01-11 03:53AM | 0 recs
Re: Republican Fox News Debate Thread

I can't believe the extent to which they are all willing to assert that "tax cuts increase revenues."  They already eschew facts in relation to myriad social policies ("abstinence education works!"  "terri schiavo is fine!"), but this is basic economic policy.  The Bush administration itself doesn't even claim that its tax cuts increased revenues.  It's a flat out lie and it should be laughed off the stage.  

by snaktime 2008-01-11 05:35AM | 0 recs
Day after thoughts

Thanks for the compliments on my admittedly amateur and likely off base analysis...

...having slept on it - "it" being how I clearly didn't "get" Fred Thompson's performance.  I think Huckabee thoughts were pretty close, but it's pretty obvious from the focus group, the phone poll, and this morning's winger reaction on RW blogs that I wasn't watching the same Fred Thompson as the standard GOP voter.

I think what I missed is that the GOP voters didn't want to listen to the whole answer.  I suspect that we Democratic voters probably have the same problem evaluating our candidates... It's not that we don't really "listen" -- it's that we come to the table with pre-conceived notions, especially now that all of us have more or less lined up behind a candidate.

In other words... we hear the first sentence, clause, or clip -- and sort of tune out the rest of the answer.

As someone who -- no possible way in hell even with a gun to my head -- isn't going to be voting for any of these jokers, I'm listening and watching from a different angle.  I'm listening and watching from a more 'critical' angle.  The GOP voter probably WANTS to hear something, and therefore -- is much, much more willing to latch onto a shred, a sliver, an opening quip and run with it.

I don't think this is unique to GOP voters -- like I said, I bet "we" do the same thing... it's definitely something I'm going to watch for from my OWN POV next Tuesday.  I'm an Obama backer - but do I listen to the WHOLE answer, or jsut the first sentence?  Same with HRC and Edwards -- do I hear the whole answer - or do I listen for what I want to hear and tune out the totality?

My completely amateur analysis is that this is why Grandpa Fred seemed to score so well.... Conservatives were desperate to hear someone - Fred Thompson starts every answer with this comforting drawl, a lazy quip, and this sort of authoritative "I'm above all this" tone... never mind that he then goes nowhere after the opener.  He's like an armored spearhead with half a gallon of gas - plunges through the front line, but then runs out of gas.

by zonk 2008-01-11 06:16AM | 0 recs
How to listen to whole answers

Zonk, et al.

Don't turn on the TV.  Listen on the radio or put it on the stereo surround sound without the TV screen on.  You concentrate more on what is said and less on whether McCain looks tired, or Grampa Fred looks stoned, or if Ron Paul actually combed his hair sometime in the last week. (I can do this by turning on the VCR to the channel I want running the sound thru the stereo, but not turning on the TV,  but I bet most everyone else on MyDD has a more s'fisticated set up than I.  BTW, I frequently do this during news segments with photos I don't want my toddler to see--war scenes, Bhutto murder scenes, Britney Spears.)


I listened to the first Bush Gore debate (the one where Gore goes "shish" a lot) and the shishing wasn't nearly as obvious or annoying as it was apparently on TV.  Although it was noticeable.  However, the quality of Bush's answers was clearly far below that of what Gore said.

I listened to the VP debate in 1992 on short wave from somewhere in the sticks of Senegal.  Remember when the late Adm. whatzizname,  Perot's running mate, said he turned his hearing aid off because Gore and Quayle were just droning on?  That worked wonders on the radio.  The Adm. didn't look like a boob at all.  Apparently not the case on TV.

And of course there are the old stories about how JFK won his debate with TrickyDick because he looked better, but radio listeners thought the opposite.

You can watch on YouTube or Network site later if you want.

Props for the commentary last night.

by The lurking ecologist 2008-01-11 07:27AM | 0 recs
Excellent idea

just goes to show how the teevee and visuals rule far too much.

The strange thing is, I actually DO get most of my news, sports, and 'media' from the radio... much more of a radio guy than a teevee guy.

For some reason, though -- other than the occasional local/state debate you can only get on the radio -- I always go TV for debates.

Absolutely gonna give this a try for the Tuesday Democratic debate.  teevee off, radio on.

by zonk 2008-01-11 07:53AM | 0 recs


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