AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

Last Friday, I took the long way late one night while in Chicago, walking around the new Soldier's Field, and it looked awesome from along the waterfront. Tonight, with MSNBC's Keith Olbermann, the Democratic candidates debate, with labor members delivering the questions from the stands.

Update [2007-8-7 18:59:38 by Todd Beeton]: You can view the candidates' opening statement videos HERE. Link to the LiveStream can be found HERE.

Update [2007-8-7 19:55:26 by Jerome Armstrong]:Obama vs Dodd vs Obama vs Clinton vs Dodd vs Obama

Man, Olbermann, where's the debate clock?

Update [2007-8-7 20:36:59 by Jerome Armstrong]:Best answer of the night:
Question: What are the qualifications you have in mind for your vice president?
Bill Richardson: Not Dick Cheney!

Iowa Independent with the live blog; Chase can type!

Anyone else notice that this was a crowd that Kucinich was more favorable in front of than any previous one? Probably especially in comparison to the YK debate, where he was boo'd more than Clinton.

Update [2007-8-7 21:27:25 by Todd Beeton]:Chuck Todd makes a really good point that a new dynamic is developing in the race that was on display tonight where Clinton's fellow senators (and the DC old guard) Biden and Dodd serve as almost Clinton surrogates defending her positions against the Obama and Edwards upstarts.

Dodd seemed to also take part in the attacks on Obama (less so on Edwards)...The problem for the two chief Clinton challengers, though, is that they are fighting to be the same person, the anti-Hillary. And Clinton, now, has a lot of supporters on stage with her, including Dodd and Biden...But how long can Edwards and Obama be allies and how comfortable will Dodd and Biden be carrying Clinton's water?

Tags: 2008 candidates (all tags)



Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread


by areyouready 2007-08-07 02:56PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

Hahahahahahaha! I love it.

by This Machine Kills Fascists 2007-08-07 04:12PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

This debate may settle the nomination for good.

If Edwards can't complete any deep passes tonight..he is done.

Anyway, I'm rooting for Edwards to go for Hillary's jugular and take her out for once.

by Djneedle83 2007-08-07 02:56PM | 0 recs

that the leading candidate can tell the world she will have no universal health care in a first term and not a single "expert" on TV or moderator would ask about that?

by TarHeel 2007-08-07 06:29PM | 0 recs
Is this a funeral?

Look at the lack of any color.  IMO, HRC must always wear brighter colors when in a debate.  That way, she stands out.

by jgarcia 2007-08-07 03:00PM | 0 recs
Watching on a mac?

I don't have cable so I went to the live feed on MSNBC's site, but got a message that live video isn't supported on my browser.  I'm a mac user and have the latest versions of both Firefox and Safari, neither work.  Does anyone know if there's a place to watch online for Mac users?

by adk1997 2007-08-07 03:02PM | 0 recs
Re: Watching on a mac?

MSNBC is owned in part by Microsoft.  Try IE.  The switch worked for me.

by Trond Jacobsen 2007-08-07 03:05PM | 0 recs
Re: Watching on a mac?

Didn't Microsoft discontinue support and new versions of IE for Macs?  I did a quick search to try and download IE for a Mac but only found sites saying that they no longer offered the download as their support had been discontinued.

by adk1997 2007-08-07 03:11PM | 0 recs
Re: Watching on a mac?

Perhaps so.  Sorry for the bum advice.  Maybe you are caught in Microsoft purgatory.

Who is Microsoft's chief lobbyist?  :-)

by Trond Jacobsen 2007-08-07 03:19PM | 0 recs
Re: Watching on a mac?

Yes they did...  See my above post.

by yitbos96bb 2007-08-07 03:46PM | 0 recs
Re: Watching on a mac?

Richardson looks good right now with the China answer

by Max Fletcher 2007-08-07 03:30PM | 0 recs
Re: Watching on a mac?

Buy Parallels or VMWARE Fusion... Fusion is new and has a unity mode, where you can JUST launch the app and NOT have to launch windows.  It rocks.

by yitbos96bb 2007-08-07 03:45PM | 0 recs
Re: Watching on a mac?

that's why I stayed at work, I have a mac at home as well.

by edgery 2007-08-07 03:52PM | 0 recs
Special Interests

Can someone explain to me why it's so smart to deride the "influence of special interests in American politics" while your standing in front of one of the largest special interest groups in American politics?

by BigBoyBlue 2007-08-07 03:03PM | 0 recs
Re: Special Interests

He is despearte. He completely ignores eveyr question. He is going nuts. An Angry White Man. LOL.

by areyouready 2007-08-07 03:15PM | 0 recs
Re: Special Interests

Areyouready, do you consider workers a special interest too?

How about Burston Marseller? Are they a special interest?

by desmoulins 2007-08-07 05:06PM | 0 recs
Re: Special Interests

Great point--They think it makes a good wedge issue.  

by changehorses08 2007-08-07 09:15PM | 0 recs
they don't see themselves that way...

and, strangely, hillary didn't seem to argue that they were a special interest group.  you know how labor thinks of itself?  as a movement.  a real movement...

by bored now 2007-08-07 11:05PM | 0 recs
Say no to insiders.

Say no to Washington insiders, it is not working for you.

Edwards - who is going to bring about the Change? The power in American needs to go back to you, the working men and women.

by dk2 2007-08-07 03:20PM | 0 recs
soldier's field

all of Chicago is looking pretty great, which is why nobody cares about the corruption... it's "the city that works"...

by Max Fletcher 2007-08-07 03:26PM | 0 recs
not true...

chicago looks good, and the mayor referenced all the cranes downtown (they represent union jobs), but there is a significant part of the population who cares.  you just aren't aware of the fights we've had (like claypool-stroger, labor's refusal to endorse daley, the rise of reform candidates against daley's people in the aldermanics)...

by bored now 2007-08-07 11:07PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

Would you scrap NAFTA or fix it?

Richardson - fix it - he didnt' say he would get rid of it.

Obama - fix it - he would call Pres of Mexico and admend it.

Biden - fix it - he would change it.

Dodd - fix it - talked about not outsourcing.

Edwards - fix - needs to be fixed, when are we going to change it,

Kucinich - withdraw from it - go forward to trade  - play on words, he would start over same as fix it - to me.

by dk2 2007-08-07 03:26PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

Hate to say it, but Kucinich is rocking through two rounds of questions.  No chance, but working the audience.

Clinton's "I'm your girl" and unity appeal worked well.

by Trond Jacobsen 2007-08-07 03:28PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

Is it just me or is Obama way wrong when he says that Americans prefer to buy American-made (and more expensive) t-shirts to save American jobs?

A lot of the regular folks I know don't even look to see where this stuff is from. For Christ's sake, look at Wal-Mart's market share.

by bluenc 2007-08-07 03:30PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

Americans DO prefer to buy American made... The question is DO THEY ACTUALLY DO IT...

I would bet money in polling 80-90% would say they'd rather buy American made, but of course we know they never follow through.

by yitbos96bb 2007-08-07 03:48PM | 0 recs
Most americans
have no idea about the incest between walmart and china..
and the connections to benefits in the US
by TarHeel 2007-08-07 03:53PM | 0 recs
I think Keith took Hillary by surprise

when he asked her to comment on Edwards's reference to her in his answer. She didn't seem to know what he was referring to so she took a moment and pretty much hit it out of the park talking about taking on the right wing machine. "I want the Democratic party to be united and to win." And to paraphrase "if you want someone to take on the Republican Party and win, then I'm your girl!" I think that's the first time she ever referred to herself as a girl.

by Todd Beeton 2007-08-07 03:30PM | 0 recs
Re: I think Keith took Hillary by surprise

I believe this line will be the best line . Go girl!! Edwards is stupid.

by areyouready 2007-08-07 03:33PM | 0 recs
Could you just keep to the facts

without calling names on the candidates.


by dk2 2007-08-07 03:35PM | 0 recs
I'm your girl

It will be a repeated line in the spin zone and will be effective.

One thing Edwards is not is stupid.  You should be ashamed of yourself.

by Trond Jacobsen 2007-08-07 03:36PM | 0 recs
Re: I think Keith took Hillary by surprise

Actually, it's 'I am your girl!'. Her mastery of rheotric skills and the ability to think fast on her feet is simply amazing.

by areyouready 2007-08-07 03:34PM | 0 recs
Re: I think Keith took Hillary by surprise

Please give us your address... I'd like to send you some knee pads so you can kiss her ass all the easier.  

by yitbos96bb 2007-08-07 03:50PM | 0 recs
Re: I think Keith took Hillary by surprise

Absolutely agree. At some point this is getting silly. This person along with a few others post absolutely nothing. One of the things I wish the would add to troll is the cheerleader who has as their only function to come into a diary to say "my candidate is perfect, and everyone else sucks."

by bruh21 2007-08-07 04:05PM | 0 recs
Re: I think Keith took Hillary by surprise

Adios lovingj then

by sepulvedaj3 2007-08-07 06:05PM | 0 recs
Re: I think Keith took Hillary by surprise

adios several posters

by bruh21 2007-08-07 07:34PM | 0 recs
Re: I think Keith took Hillary by surprise


by Denny Crane 2007-08-07 08:16PM | 0 recs
Re: I think Keith took Hillary by surprise

Hillary is a terrific candidate.  She is smart, funny and very quick on the uptake.  All the things we lack now.  

by changehorses08 2007-08-07 09:18PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread


Ricardson - more pressure, we have to a relationshop

Obama - a competitor - does not have to be adversary.  

Biden - they own the mortgage of our home.

Clinton - amen to Biden, back to fiscal responsibly.

Dodd - agree with what has been said here, it is getting closer to adversary.

Edwards - competitor - human rights issues, along with everything else said here. Better restrictions.

Kucinich - a whole new way to look at china.

by dk2 2007-08-07 03:33PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

Nice line about digging to China by Kucinich... definitely the biggest applause line thusfar

by Max Fletcher 2007-08-07 03:34PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

Kucinich and Edwards had the best answers to the questions asked in the early part of the debate.

Hillary is just re-hasing old ideas into sugar-coated nuanced positions.

by Djneedle83 2007-08-07 03:36PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

Kucinich up big through three rounds.  Clinton second.

The rest just kind of there.

by Trond Jacobsen 2007-08-07 03:38PM | 0 recs
Shorter Keith Olberman:

"Iraq - you have 30 seconds"

by Todd Beeton 2007-08-07 03:39PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

Obama said troops "in the region, outside of Iraq" to combat terrorism

by Max Fletcher 2007-08-07 03:40PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

Usually it's safe to mute your television when Hillary's speaking, because you know nothing representing a significant departure from the standard talking points is going to be said

by Max Fletcher 2007-08-07 03:41PM | 0 recs
and than the

shrillness won't hurt your ears either

by TarHeel 2007-08-07 06:31PM | 0 recs
Obama - Hand the keys to the car?

I don't get his answer!

by dk2 2007-08-07 03:44PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama - Hand the keys to the car?

Obama didn't know whether he would meet with Barry Bonds if Bonds hit his 756 home run.  That answer really burned me.  Bonds is an athlete and close to breaking a record but Obama can't decide if Bonds is good enough to meet with.  Obama hedged by saying well he hasn't broken the record yet so I have time to decide.  Well Bonds broke the record tonight and maybe he won't think Obama is worth meeting.  I am sick sick sick of the arrogant Obama.

by changehorses08 2007-08-07 09:25PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

John Edwards doesn't seem to be getting much time.

by mecarr 2007-08-07 03:49PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

Obama is a disaster. He is digging and digging.

by areyouready 2007-08-07 03:51PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

Republican Troll

by BDM 2007-08-07 06:55PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

Is it me or did Obama just backpeddle from his Pakistan comments?

by Todd Beeton 2007-08-07 03:52PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

He is so confused. I believe it's a disaster.

by areyouready 2007-08-07 03:53PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

Just out of curiousity, why are you here? Your posts never add any information. We're clear that you are for Hillary and against all other Democrats. But do you get paid to do this? Because I can assure you that you are doing nothing to win support for your candidate with snide comments like these.

Earlier in the thread you agreed with the troll who said that workers are a special interest.

What exactly are you for other than Hillary?

by desmoulins 2007-08-07 05:11PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

And other than being the ass that we all need to survive just what are you doing here?

by DoIT 2007-08-07 05:19PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

No, he did back peddle.

by DoIT 2007-08-07 03:54PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

I don't think he backpeddled.  Could you illustrate where he did (when we get access to videos and such.

by Obama08 2007-08-07 04:20PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

Not only did Obama NOT backpedal, he also said something very important:  the notion that presidential candidates must not share their thoughts with Americans because there are some things foreigners must not hear us discussing, is BULLSHIT.

It is of a piece with the notion that we should elect a Big Daddy (or a Big Mommy) to protect us, and we don't want to know the details.  "Let the Wise Greybeards do all the talking" is not my idea of self-government.

-- TP

by Rethymniotis 2007-08-07 05:19PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

except no one suggested we hide it from Americans.

by sepulvedaj3 2007-08-07 06:08PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

According to she said:

You can think big, but remember you shouldn't always say everything you think if you're running for president.

If that doesn't essentially recommend hiding information, I don't know what does.

by Obama08 2007-08-07 06:23PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

It's not hiding information; she's advocating not disclosing all of ones options to those who aren't the closest of allies.  By not revealing all one's options one keeps a strategic advantage as well as avoiding public conflict.  Even if you can justly declare the right to rattle a saber, that doesn't make the statement wise.

Being an honest president doesn't preclude being shrewd.

by Rooktoven 2007-08-07 08:06PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

We are choosing who is going to be the next president.  I want them to be open with me and everyone else whose vote they want about what they would do in office.

by Obama08 2007-08-07 08:17PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

Do you want them to tell you all the arguing points they are going to use in trade deals with China?  

How about "Hey everyone, check out what I'm going to threaten the oil companies with if they don't comply with environmental regulations."

A President can't do that all the time.  You can know where the person's heart is, without them blabbing about where the family fortune is hidden.

That said, I don't think Obama screwed up THAT badly.  The remark was honest, it was what most of us feel to be just, but it was putting the U.S. at a tactical disadvantage-- now matter how slightly.

Are Dodd and Hilary blowing it out of proportion/  Of course.  This is what happens in campaigns.  It's why some clowns still talk about haircuts.  Mistakes get magnified by ones opponent, and sometimes distorted.

Live and Learn.

by Rooktoven 2007-08-07 08:38PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

No, I don't want to know all the trade deal points on China.  While knowing what the government would do about oil companies is interesting, it is not necessary or vital for me to know.

But I do want to know why we would send our troops into another country before we do so.

None of the candidates have stated that sending troops into Pakistan is completely out of the picture except for Kuccinich.

We all know Kuccinich's position.  But all of the other candidates recognise that action in Pakistan may be necessary, hence their unwillingness to state that going there is a mistake.

Only Obama is honest enough to say it forthright before the general election.  Clinton and Edwards would likely wait until general election to avoid losing support of strict anti-war folk.  Boy will they be disappointed.

by Jacor 2007-08-07 09:11PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

But I do want to know why we would send our troops into another country before we do so.

I'm afraid I disagree with you there.  You can't always know in advance and under what circumstance.

I respect your position, but I think there are times when you can't always be public with military plans.  Not to justify Bush at all, but there are grey areas.

by Rooktoven 2007-08-07 09:18PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

Actually, I don't know "where a person's heart is" unless s/he tells me.  (I don't have Dubya's soul-searching powers.)  And general platitudes about oneself don't tell me as much as specific red-lines do.  

I don't know whether it would be wise to lob missiles or drop paratroopers into the badlands of Pakistan, in quest of the head of Usama bin Laden.  I do know that neither bin Laden nor Musharraf are dumb enough to believe we're not considering it.  What the hell would we be giving away by discussing it?

Back in the very early 1970's, there was a Doonesbury strip whose punchline was built around the obvious fact that Nixon's "secret bombing" of Laos was hardly a secret to the Laotians.  I don't know who the Very Important People in our government think they're keeping secrets from, but the Nixon mindset is obviously not dead yet.

-- TP

P.S.: Musharraf is more likely to be grateful than pissed, if we kill bin Laden or al Zawahiri for him.  But that's a subject for another day.

by Rethymniotis 2007-08-07 09:20PM | 0 recs
she's arguing for more secrecy...

just like hillarycare.  foreign policy is just too nuanced for working people, doncha know.  don't confuse them with the facts.  we'll just make these decisions in private, we'll decide for america.

sounds like bush to me...

by bored now 2007-08-07 11:08PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

Perhaps before Obama shares his thoughts on sending missiles to Pakistan he should think about what this might sound like to Musharaf who was so furious he called Bush who had to explain that he was still our ally and that our Foreign Policy didn't change toward Pakistan.  

by changehorses08 2007-08-07 09:34PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

So, an American presidential candidate should keep at least some of his thoughts to himself?  Is that what you're saying?

Okay, how far do you want to carry this principle?  Should our candidates stick to platitudes ("I will be strong on defense") or outright lies ("I will pursue a humble foreign policy"), because discussing options with the American electorate might upset foreigners?  

It is actually rather insane to take for granted that "our interests" justify a world-wide military, with "Commands" that cover large swaths of other people's continents, and then pretend to care about their sensitivities -- and to the point of stifling our own debates, no less.

-- TP  

by Rethymniotis 2007-08-07 10:25PM | 0 recs
just goes to show how unstable musharrif is...

we don't need allies like that.  it doesn't help us achieve our goals -- it's not in our national interest...

by bored now 2007-08-07 11:10PM | 0 recs
Re: just goes to show how unstable musharrif is...

Are you serious? seeing the situation in that region I'd say our involvment is in our national interest. At least if you count preventing a regional war that result in untold deaths and would destroy the world's economy a goal of ours.

by Ernst 2007-08-08 06:15AM | 0 recs
yes, i'm serious...

our legacy of propping up the shah and pinochet did us no good.  we share interests with countries, not leaders, and we have to make that clear to the entire world.  if our interests are similar to pakistan's (as they are), then it shouldn't matter who leads pakistan.  turkey is ruled by a popular religious party, and we have had little effect from that.  they still consider themselves our ally.  it is a myth of the bush-clinton-bush establishment that we have to prop up leaders like musharraf in order to protect our national interests.  our interests can only be protected if the country we ally with has a national interest in protecting it as well...

by bored now 2007-08-09 09:32AM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

i think obama is getting really frustrated...It seems like the other candidates are ganging up on him.

by mecarr 2007-08-07 03:53PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

Yeah, they sure did.  Kinda like he is the front-runner or something...

Clinton saying that her name is being mentioned a lot does not mean that people ganged up on her like they did him.

I wonder why she felt the need to say that?  As if she needs to reconfirm that she is actually the front-runner?  Now why would she need to do that?

by Jacor 2007-08-07 09:13PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

Obama did not deserve the second chance to restate his position on Pakistan. He was given the question and then a response. He had no right to a third response. Olbermann is not being fair.

by DoIT 2007-08-07 03:54PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

I agree, Olbermann (whom I like) was incredibly unfair with the amount of time and number of turns allotted to Obama.

by Rooktoven 2007-08-07 08:08PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

I am with Dodd on attacking Pakistan, as I have made plain.

Obama I think did very well through those foreign policy questions, including finishing up very strong.  

He did not get me, but I do think he did well, better than I expected.

by Trond Jacobsen 2007-08-07 03:55PM | 0 recs
Obama stole the show.

He is at his best when he's confronted.

by lovingj 2007-08-07 03:56PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama stole the show.

he's a disaster.

by areyouready 2007-08-07 03:58PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama stole the show.

You are either not being honest or watching a different debate.  He got the biggest applause line in the debate thus far in that part of the debate.  He did amazingly well in the foreign policy part of the debate.

by Obama08 2007-08-07 04:05PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama stole the show.

Fascinating to see bias at work. Complete blind bias. I'm talking about the both of you.

Try to see things objectively, you might just be surprised.

by Populism2008 2007-08-07 04:11PM | 0 recs
Bias maybe so.

However, I clearly saw Obama grabbing the moment of the night when he was confronted by Dodd and Clinton.  There is no way you can bias that out.

Obama did hugely well in that confrontation.

by lovingj 2007-08-07 06:03PM | 0 recs
Re: Bias maybe so.

He was given extra time that no one else was afforded.  That doesn't entail "grabbing a moment".

by Rooktoven 2007-08-07 08:09PM | 0 recs
Re: Bias maybe so.

No one else was ganged up on by several other candidates.  Not quite like that or that strongly.

by Jacor 2007-08-07 09:14PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama stole the show.


by BDM 2007-08-07 06:52PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama stole the show.

I agree--Obama is a disaster.  He seemed very nervous tonight.  I think he is beginning to realize he is in over his head.  I don't know if any of you caught this but Obama completely avoided congratulating Hillary after the debate.  The snub showed me that he is acting like a sore loser.  

by changehorses08 2007-08-07 09:38PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

Note to Richardson: Manufacturing jobs.

by Trond Jacobsen 2007-08-07 04:00PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

This man in the yellow shirt is what this is election about.  YOu will see that exchange 1 million times in the next two weeks.

by Trond Jacobsen 2007-08-07 04:03PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

I think we are going to see the foreign policy debate for the next week or two.

by Obama08 2007-08-07 04:08PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

Perhaps.  I just got a little caught up in the emotion.

by Trond Jacobsen 2007-08-07 04:09PM | 0 recs
the people there did, too...

these people did not just show up.  there were chosen specially because of the impact of their story -- and gotten here at labor expense...

by bored now 2007-08-07 11:11PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

Yes he is. I am glad Edwards applauded for him and encouraged the crowd to show their support. It must have been hard for this man to come and speak. This is exactly what John Edwards talks about everywhere he goes. He has plans that will help this man and the many others like him. I hope this man's story helps people understand what John Edwards has been trying to tell us. We have got to do the right thing for the American workers.

by bettync 2007-08-07 04:12PM | 0 recs
Hillary's got

accesibility to healthcare for his family.

And if his family can hold out without drugs until her second term in 2012 she may, just may have some help for him

by TarHeel 2007-08-07 06:33PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary's got

You know, this will be a very long process, which will take years to complete.  It is not just enacted like a magic wand.  You live in lala land if you believe that.  

BTW, did you hear Bonior state that Edwards goal is to have 40,000 to 50,000 troops out of Iraq ONE year after he takes office.  What that tells me is that Edwards plans on still having 112,000 troops in Iraq by 2010.  I guess things don't work as fast as we all like, eh?  

by georgep 2007-08-07 07:03PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary's got

or even 122,000 as it were...

by georgep 2007-08-07 07:06PM | 0 recs
Re: Hillary's got

Edwards has also been saying that he would pull 40-50k troops out of Iraq w/in 12-18 months since November of 2005 (IIRC). If he had been in charge then, those troops would already be out by now -- and there wouldn't have been a "surge" to add to the total number of troops there.

by machka 2007-08-07 08:16PM | 0 recs
The Long Process

Off hand note--

Did you notice that Everyone on stage was a leader on said issue, with a definite plan.

Cynicism inspired diary continued  here...

by Rooktoven 2007-08-07 08:30PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

That was an amazing moment. It was the simple statement "What is wrong with America?" but it said it all.  Edwards dropped the ball and ended up giving his stump speech.  The man did not want to be blessed he wanted what should be the birth right of every American to have decent affordable healthcare.

by changehorses08 2007-08-07 09:41PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

I agree that Edwards could have gotten more out of the moment, politically speaking.

As Edwards I would have tried something like:

"Sir, LTV wronged you and your family and I am President every day I will work on making sure that the retirement and health security for families like yours is protected.  A big part of the problem is that health care in this country is tied to the fate of your company.  If they go bankrupt like LTV, employees and their families have no health care.

So I ask Senator Obama, whose plan does not cover everyone, and Senator Clinton, who has no clear plan but hopes to get to health care when she has the time: 'How long do think this man and his wife should have to wait so you can play your games of compromise, triangulation, and calculation?'"

by Trond Jacobsen 2007-08-08 05:08AM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

Great answer--It makes me sad that none of the candidates treated that man with your compassion.

by changehorses08 2007-08-08 11:08PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

Biden slammed Edwards on walking picket lines. Whew!

by DoIT 2007-08-07 04:11PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

Edwards slammed back with a great answer! 200 times on the picket line! Edwards walked the picket line last saturday and sunday! Great, great answer. Great list of what workers deserve!

by bettync 2007-08-07 04:14PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

what's the question? I missed it. It got so heated . LOL.

by areyouready 2007-08-07 04:17PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

Yeah bettync but his 200 times on the picket line happened when he was running for President, not when he was a US Senator. And that is Biden's point.

It's like Obama's sudden decision to offer a withdrawal plan for Iraq and vote against funding the war after he decided to run for President. Nice positions but very convenient.

by DoIT 2007-08-07 04:21PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

Like Kucinich with being prolife, Richardson with Justice White, and every single other thinking human being with a public record. The accusation of flip-flopping or being a political weathervane is bandied about so much that it's now pretty near worthless. Unless someone goes from point A to point  B then back to point A, this 'oh, how convenient' comment strikes me as cynical, worthless, and nothing more than an oh-so-easy way to dismiss whomever we wish.

Name me one candidate whose positions have remained consistent throughout a political career, and I'll give  you the word for a person like that.

by BingoL 2007-08-07 04:29PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread


by edgery 2007-08-07 04:42PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread


by sepulvedaj3 2007-08-07 06:10PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

The picket lines may have been over the past four years, but Edwards has worked on minimum wage issues and struggles of labor his entire political career. I believe Edwards saw what happens to unprotected workers in my own state of North Carolina. He saw the same thing happening to our textile workers and furniture workers as I saw. This has been important to Edwards for a long time. Biden was just plain wrong about Edwards. (I'm not saying that Biden does not have a good record too...I really do not know Biden's record.)

by bettync 2007-08-07 04:31PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

I agree with you that Edwards has a good record but that does not diminish the truth of Biden's assertions. It would probably be worth the time to research Joe Biden's long legislative history.

by DoIT 2007-08-07 04:38PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

And Obama's sudden decision not to take lobbiest money just this last February.  Obama had no problem taking lobbiest money for his next Senate campaign.  

by changehorses08 2007-08-07 09:44PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

Biden just decided to go back to one of Edward's earlier answers, when Edwards told the crowd that "it is one thing to make a nice speech on this stage, but to look at who has been with them all along during the crunch time". Biden took exception and said he had a good record. Edwards has done a lot of work with the unions over the past several years, so he backed up his original statement very well!

by bettync 2007-08-07 04:23PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

(I meant to link this to areyouready's question!)

by bettync 2007-08-07 04:26PM | 0 recs
Biden planned all this

his campaign was ready with a press release.

He wants Hillary secretary of state or Defense department job

by TarHeel 2007-08-07 06:35PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

Hillary's last answer was ... I can't even think of the right word. Wowzers... she said everything just right.

by DoIT 2007-08-07 04:35PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

She has a way with words.

But in the end, she dances around committing herself to anything.

Charisma does not a leader make.

by Jacor 2007-08-07 09:17PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

The reason she is the frontrunner is that she answers every question that is put to her.  Even if some don't like her answer.  That is what makes a leader.  Rock Stars need not apply.

by changehorses08 2007-08-07 09:47PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

I think Edwards got his message out loud and clear. I was impressed when he told the crowd that as president he can make the American people understand that support of working people of America is important for al of us.

by bettync 2007-08-07 04:40PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

Yes, I noticed Kucinich did well and was well received.  He is solid on labor issues and has his workers stump speech down very well.  The won't vote for him but they responded favorably to the fact he delivered the labor agenda to down to the last detail.

I also read he faced some boos at YK.

The interesting question is if these two facts are related.

I do not like Kucinich or support his candidacy despite being very pro-labor.

by Trond Jacobsen 2007-08-07 04:42PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

It's all red-meat. If you throw out red-meat, of course you get applause.

by areyouready 2007-08-07 04:45PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

You think?  You capture the obvious.

by Trond Jacobsen 2007-08-07 04:57PM | 0 recs
he did get boo'ed...

i don't think they are related.  he's pro-labor, but not necessarily pro-netroots...

by bored now 2007-08-07 11:12PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

Good luck Iowa Voters...

Iowa is going to either Clinton or Edwards.

It will take Elizabeth to take Hillary out come caucus time.

by Djneedle83 2007-08-07 04:45PM | 0 recs
Edwards was strong!

Edwards was strong and unequivocal, direct in his answers. Hillary had a good performance under great pressure. The top tier candidates actually are improving as candidates through this process. This was a good debate overall. The questioners are those living the pain of what's happening in America.

by cmpnwtr 2007-08-07 04:48PM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards was strong!

Agreed.  I think all of the candidates are improving on their skills and we're getting substantive information at the same time. I am totally jazzed about the quality of our candidates...except Gravel.

by Denny Crane 2007-08-07 08:29PM | 0 recs
Kucinich won

I would never vote for him but he is the only one not underperforming tonight. Hillary was ok, a bit shrill, got booed and looked tired. Obama went back to stuttering and was quite lame overall. Edwards was ok, but sounded desperate when begging for votes and got outflanked by Kucinich. Richardson and Biden were terrible. Dodd was forgettable.

Therefore Kucinich won.

by Populism2008 2007-08-07 05:08PM | 0 recs
Re: Kucinich won

I agree that Kucinich was great. I also though Obama and Edwards did really well. Yes, Obama stuttered a little, but he handled the Dodd/Clinton criticism about Pakistan wonderfully (Eugene Robinson said something to the effect that it was his best moment yet in his campaign). Other than that and a few other highlights, Obama was good but not great. Same with Edwards. Clinton was weak, I thought. She just didn't bring as much composure and confidence as past debates. She didn't hurt herself badly or anything, but she was slightly outshined by her two biggest competitors.

Generally speaking, I didn't like the debate. The stadium environment and crowd behavior was really distracting.  

by DPW 2007-08-07 05:18PM | 0 recs
Re: Kucinich won

Eugene Robinson ? He is the biggest Obama shrill I've ever seen. He spouted lies after lies. On MTP, when questioned about Hillary's huge lead, he claimed Obama was leading in NH, IA.

Give me a break. This guy is disgusting.

by areyouready 2007-08-07 05:59PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

Okay I would call this debate the WWF of debates.  Definitely rowdy and it was fun to see Hillary throwing elbows in her pearls.  I have to say the body slam of the night went to Biden when he took Edwards on.  John was proud of being able to say he walked the picket line 200 times in the last 2yrs.  He was like you all need to remember who was with you in crunch time.  Biden totally dissed him with the  don't tell me about the last 2 yrs when you were running for POTUS comment.  Tell me what you did for your 6yrs in the senate.  Tell me what you did when it cost you something.  Tell me what you did when you had to go against corporations in your own state.  Edwards response was to say he had walked picket lines 200 times including Sat and Sun(weak).   This was suppose to be Edwards night, and he definitely did not close the deal(IMO).  Hilllary was the only one who talked about the Employees Free Choice Act.

by Kingstongirl 2007-08-07 05:12PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

I agree, Biden had the smack down of the night. He put Edwards in his place. They even tried to silence his mike.

by DoIT 2007-08-07 05:23PM | 0 recs
the stickers they gave people who attended...

touted the employees free choice act.  so she saw that everyone was wearing this sticker...

by bored now 2007-08-07 11:31PM | 0 recs
Re: the stickers they gave people who attended...

Props for her being quicker on the uptake then everybody else then.

by Ernst 2007-08-08 06:24AM | 0 recs
Re: the stickers they gave people who attended...

i'd agree.  when you think about all the local references she made (four, by my count), she is truly a polished professional...

by bored now 2007-08-09 09:36AM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

I disagree with the latest update of Biden and Dodd being Hillary's surrogate.  If that were the case, why would Biden risk being booed (as he was) by ignoring the coal minor widow's question to support Obama's position about unilateral action on Pakistan.  Each of the candidates are trying to get an edge and I think Dodd was not necessarily supporting Hillary's position on Pakistan, but trying to get his name in the headlines.

by Kingstongirl 2007-08-07 05:42PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

I completely agree with you. Biden is the real deal. He is nobody's surrogate.

by bowiegeek 2007-08-07 05:50PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

i saw him as a keynote speaker for an India-China symposium and I must say he was like a child who walked into the middle of a movie theater- very very disapointing

by leewesley 2007-08-07 06:15PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

I did not personally see that part (had to put the kiddies to bed) but did Biden have a horrific moment regarding a ho-hum reaction to a widow's question?  The dkos diary has several posters make a big deal about it.   What was it all about?

by georgep 2007-08-07 06:26PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

Yes, he was asked what he would do to improve the health and safety of mine workers and he spent like two seconds telling her how sorry he was about her loss and that he too had lost a spouse.  He then went on to talk about the fact that the US already had a standing policy of taking unilateral action against Pakistan and for cutting off their funding if they didn't cooperate with us.  He was booed when he started taking about Pakistan because he wasn't addressing her question. It seemed particularly insensitive, given that she prefaced her question on the fact that she lost her husband due to lack of enforcement and that the 6 miners in Utah were also facing a similar problem.

by Kingstongirl 2007-08-07 07:03PM | 0 recs

Oh man...Obama/Edward fans dont give up....whenever someone agrees with Clinton they MUST have an ulterior motive...yeah...maybe you should ask yourself why Clinton's lead has DOUBLED in three weeks...come on, to start dismissing reality makes you more of a Republican than a liberal.

by werd2406 2007-08-07 06:24PM | 0 recs
Re: Biden/Dodd/Clinton

More polls should conduct with a reasonable amount of people.  1000+.  Otherwise the results are not significant enough to remove variables.  They should also be wary of the bias of selecting only Democrats that have voted previously.

Obama has garnered a lot of support among first-time voters, independents, voters who have not voted for years, and Republicans who intend to switch to the Democratic vote come primary-caucus day.

Go to, go to the Democratic primary section, and notice how only a couple polling bodies meet that criteria.  And then note how the ones that do meet the criteria are run by companies that have Washington insiders as clients.  Hrmm...

by Jacor 2007-08-07 09:21PM | 0 recs
Re: Biden/Dodd/Clinton

Why would a company spend all that extra money on meeting all the criteria and then mess with the results? It's silly. It's far cheaper to dispense with all those restrictions and simply design a poll that will give the desired outcome.

Washington insiders want reliable polling information for their own use. It helps them stay in there position. People who use bad polls to for strategy don't win elections.

by Ernst 2007-08-08 06:38AM | 0 recs
Re: Biden/Dodd/Clinton

I totally agree. Hillary was great.  Its going to be nice to have a smart woman in the White House.  Obama and Edwards have Cheney's sense of humor.  Everytime she spoke they looked constipated.  

by changehorses08 2007-08-07 09:54PM | 0 recs

First comment 04/07/2007, only pro-Hillary or anti-E/O posts, no diaries.

You decide.

by Populism2008 2007-08-08 01:09AM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

Anyone know where i can watch it now?

by leewesley 2007-08-07 06:32PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

It will be replayed on MSNBC at midnight.

by Obama08 2007-08-07 06:43PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

any idea if it will be put up on the collection of tubes?

by leewesley 2007-08-07 06:55PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread kos poll

Who had the best performance? KOS POLL

3% 176 votes
18% 953 votes
2% 149 votes
25% 1354 votes
19% 1018 votes
28% 1479 votes
2% 148 votes

   | 5278 Votes

by BDM 2007-08-07 07:16PM | 0 recs
Who had the best performance? KOS POLL

If you compensate for bias, it's a clear victory for Kucinich.

Good for him.

by Ernst 2007-08-08 06:40AM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

I don't know if it will be up in it's entirety.

by Obama08 2007-08-07 07:29PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

It will be available on MSNBC.COM and it should be repeated later tonight.

by changehorses08 2007-08-07 09:55PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

"We need to have free trade thats not just for Wall Street but also for Main Street. Free trade always produces winners and losers. But the problem is that its always the same winners and losers."

Hahahaha. Man. When Obama has a great answer he has a great answer.

by world dictator 2007-08-07 08:31PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

"We need to have free trade thats not just for Wall Street but also for Main Street. Free trade always produces winners and losers. But the problem is that its always the same winners and losers."

Hahahaha. Man. When Obama has a great answer he has a great answer.

by world dictator 2007-08-07 08:35PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

just a question....

why was Kucinich booed at YKos?
was he too liberal?
was he antagonistic?

by joe in oklahoma 2007-08-07 09:21PM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

I can't remember precisely, but I thought it was for an unconvincing line of attack against some of the other candidates.

by Ernst 2007-08-08 06:45AM | 0 recs
Obama's Inexperience

Also, Obama said Canada has a president. They dont. They have a prime minister. This is like someone who's running for office in the UK saying "We have to work with the prime minister of America"....uhh....give it a few Obama, you'll be a SUPER candidate one day...take the VP job and get the experience you need then one day you can be a GREAT president.

See bloggers, one can be civil, face reality, and not attack another Democrat ;) Give it a try one time.

by werd2406 2007-08-08 12:33AM | 0 recs
No real standouts in my opinion.

Hillary didn't give any bad answers but she wasn't as polished and charming as in previous debates.  She appeared a little tense.

Obama and Edwards just continued to hit on their recent talking points.   Obama didn't support the war from the beginning and John thinks anyone who has been a Senator (except him) should lead the country.

All in all nothing new from the top three.

Out of the lower tier Dodd was the best.  He looked and sounded experienced and credible, and was the only one that really showed some true passion.

Richardson, was he there?  

by dpANDREWS 2007-08-08 05:37AM | 0 recs
i disagree...

but that may just be because i was there and witnessed how engaging she was...

by bored now 2007-08-09 09:38AM | 0 recs
Re: AFL-CIO Debate Open Thread

I'm afraid to say that when Obama calls the President of Canada as promised, he'll find that there is no phone connection. Canada has a Prime Minister, not a President.

by bowiegeek 2007-08-08 10:17AM | 0 recs


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