Enough of the Fake Apologies

Butchering of language bothers me intensely.  Let's take David Saunders and his 'apology'.  Many of you know him as 'Mudcat', but I'm going to call him David as if he is a fully functional adult male.  Here's what he wrote in his initial post insulting vague left-wing bloggers.

I am certain I will get personally attacked for this next statement, but in all honesty, I don't care what the "Metropolitan Wing" of my party thinks. I don't like them. The damage the pseudo-intellectuals have done to my party by abandoning tolerance, combined with their erroneous stereotyping of my people and culture, is something that brings out my incivility. In his column, Joe said, "...the smart stuff is being drowned out by a fierce, bullying, often witless tone of intolerance that has overtaken the left-wing sector of the blogosphere." Amen. I must add that this same intellectual arrogance and intolerance overtook the party years ago, and for that very reason, my people in rural America left the tent.

So to those bloggers who believe in a straight-forward dialogue and exchange of ideas, God bless you and thank you. Together, you're coming up with a lot of good stuff, and frankly, much of it has been helpful to me. At the same time, those Democratic bloggers, who have appointed themselves as intellectually superior and believe the only way to win an argument is to shot the loudest with personal attacks, you can go to Hell

Here's his this 'apology'.

And by the way, I never intended to shoot at the net roots with my initial post. I am simply an "elitism hating" Southern Democrat who loathes the stereotypes that have been placed upon me and my neighbors. However, apologies with buts ain't worth a damn. Since I offended so many of you, I obviously did a poor job of communicating my feelings. I apologize...no buts.

In what world is that classified as an apology?  You think you did a 'poor job of communicating' your 'feelings'.  Actually, David, you did a fine job.  Your feelings are pretty damn clear.  You hate the 'Metropolitan Opera Wing' of the party (gay-bait much?), called the left-wing side of the blogosphere 'witless', and said you don't care what this Metropolitan Opera Wing does or says, all in the name of tolerance.  Apparently, you also feel that this group you attacked destroyed your party.

I'd say that you did a good job of clearly expressing your feelings, so no need to apologize on that front.  In fact, this is not a 'communications problem' at all.  This is you going off and insulting a whole lot of people for no reason whatsoever with stereotypical code words and a whole lot of inaccurate silliness.  Apologize for that, not for a lack of clarity in how you insulted people.  And while we're at it, I'm sick of everything in PR-speak being reduced to a 'communications problem'.  No, you were wrong and a jerk.  It happens, we all say things we've regretted, but stop chalking it up to a misunderstanding.  Here, this is an apology looks like.  An apology requires a real self-examination, and understanding of what you did wrong, and a recognition and willingness to take the time and effort not to do it again.  If you think you didn't communicate your feelings clearly and that's the problem, you obviously have no idea why people are upset.

And as for Joe Trippi and the Edwards campaign saying 'Oh Mudcat's Mudcat', what is he, seven years old?  That's ridiculous.  This is an adult man, not a child.  And this is a Presidential contest, not a playpen.

There's no big larger moral lesson here.  I'm just annoyed at people butchering the English language and saying they are sorry that we're mad instead of apologizing for screwing something up.  Stop it.  We see through it.  If you don't want to apologize, don't.  If you want to apologize, do it.  But don't be sorry that I'm mad at you, because all that means is that you don't want to be inconvenienced or disliked, but that you also don't want to fix the problem that caused the situation in the first place.

Tags: Joe Trippi, John Edwards, mudcat saunders (all tags)



Re: Enough of the Fake Apologies

Looks like he's continuing Edwards' 24/7 apology route.

by carolinezhang 2007-06-12 05:06PM | 0 recs
Re: Enough of the Fake Apologies
Yes, Hillary thinks everything she has done is correct. And that's what most people have a problem with. I admire Edwards for having the courage to say he was wrong about the AUMF. I don't admire Hillary for failing to do that. I don't admire Hillary for failing to apologize for NAFTA or for gutting welfare, etc.
by philgoblue 2007-06-12 06:02PM | 0 recs
I'd just like to point out

that MyDD has spent more time analyzing "Mudcat" -  someone who's used the F-word on camera and is not your typical consulant more than  they've analyzed Mark Penn.

Mudcat who types some ill conceived poorly thought out stuff on a 3rd rate blog on behalf of himself (not mentioning Edwards once) - I'm sure this is paid by Time unrelated to the Edwards Campaign.

Mark Penn who's company spins PR for Union busting companies and protects a right wing government that KILLS union leaders in  Colombia - and goes back with the Cllinton's to the 90s.

Which is worty of more scrutiny?

This is like focusing on Hedge funds instead of universal health care debates .

by TarHeel 2007-06-12 05:07PM | 0 recs
Re: I'd just like to point out

stupidity has no limit.

by carolinezhang 2007-06-12 05:09PM | 0 recs
Re: I'd just like to point out

stupidity has no limit. Time for you to take some daily medicine.

by carolinezhang 2007-06-12 05:16PM | 0 recs
Wake me up

when this story is over.

by david mizner 2007-06-12 05:18PM | 0 recs
To me, it looks like...

he wanted to apologize, and did it.  Anyone whose ever met Mudcat knows that he doesn't mix words and certainly doesn't say something unless he means it.  He didn't address it toward anyone in particular, are you really taking this personally?

by samwithans 2007-06-12 05:08PM | 0 recs
Really? That's all you've got?

Did you actually read the post?
Are you just trying to muddy the waters by being incoherent and dismissive?

I don't really care about this whole flap, but I care when people like you put up a stupid smokescreen and don't even respond to any of the arguments in the post.

"Anyone whose [sic] ever met Mudcat knows that he doesn't mix [mince??] words and certainly doesn't say something unless he means it."

Yes, exactly. When he was insulting the left wing of the party, gaybaiting and generally demonizing metropolitan culture, he meant it.

Honestly, this is a relatively meaningless flare-up. I'd never heard the name 'mudcat' sanders and I didn't really care. But your half assed, intellectually lazy defense of mudcat pissed me off.

So congrats. You're making John Edwards look really good.

by mermzilla 2007-06-12 05:51PM | 0 recs
Re: Really? That's all you've got?
Talk about your intellectually lazy post! You show me where he was insulting the left wing of the party, gays or metropolitan culture. Show me?! Or STFU!
by philgoblue 2007-06-12 06:01PM | 0 recs
Re: Really? That's all you've got?

"Metropolitan Wing"
abandoning tolerance

In his column, Joe said, "...the smart stuff is being drowned out by a fierce, bullying, often witless tone of intolerance that has overtaken the left-wing sector of the blogosphere." Amen.

[FYI, sucking Joe Klein's dick isn't a good think]

and then to cap it off, a big fat strawman:
"those Democratic bloggers, who have appointed themselves as intellectually superior and believe the only way to win an argument is to shot the loudest with personal attacks, you can go to Hell"

Who? Did he name names? Who is he talking about? Why is he so concerned about the Democratic party? Are we in trouble? Oh No!!! Mudcat speaks for the south and for rural voters and he said my metropolitan wing is going to kick his people out of the tent!! We'd better listen to Mudcat or we're going to lose!!!!

He's telling the left wing to shut up. He's telling people who are justifiably angry, to shut up.

God damn it. I still don't care. I just hate the fact that you're trying to deny this reality.

by mermzilla 2007-06-12 06:11PM | 0 recs
Re: Really? That's all you've got?

How many exclamation points can you use in one comment?

by samwithans 2007-06-12 06:30PM | 0 recs
Re: Really? That's all you've got?

oh man, you got me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by mermzilla 2007-06-12 06:37PM | 0 recs
That's mince

when you obfuscate you mince words, not mix 'em.

And anyway, he offended some people (including me) but he apologized. People on swampland are calling for him to get fired from the Edwards campaign, because Amanda Marcotte was. But actually Amanda resigned. Anyway, people need to lighten up.  Not everyone loves them, and it can be helpful to hear why other people have issues, even if (as in mudcat's case) they are ill-informed.

by delmoi 2007-06-14 06:35PM | 0 recs
Re: Enough of the Fake Apologies

I honestly think you are over reacting to what this man said. He has been referred to as a racist and a homophobe, some even called him anti-Semetic. This is ridiculous.

The essence of what he said is true. There is a certain minority of very vocal left wing Democratic bloggers that think their way is the only way and they will use any weapon at their disposal to criticize or demonize someone that does not adhere fully to their agenda. The fact that so many people came up with these uncalled for labels for this man is a prime example.

It seems okay that this vocal minority can destroy someone's character but not okay for him to say they can go to hell.

There is plenty of hypocrisy to go around.

by DoIT 2007-06-12 05:13PM | 0 recs
Strawman much?

by mermzilla 2007-06-12 05:52PM | 0 recs
Re: Read the actual diaries much?
I can find proof for every claim made. Heck, Stoller calls him anti-gay in this diary.
by philgoblue 2007-06-12 05:59PM | 0 recs
So he was right to criticize Stoller?

by mermzilla 2007-06-12 06:05PM | 0 recs
Re: So he was right to criticize Stoller?
Huh? Where did Mudcat criticize Stoller. He criticized a few posters on a specific thread on the Time magazine blog. Can't anyone get this story right?
by philgoblue 2007-06-12 06:26PM | 0 recs
Re: So he was right to criticize Stoller?

Oh, so he was criticizing people LIKE Stoller!

By agreeing with Joe Klein's patronizing, dismissive opinion of bloggers.


by mermzilla 2007-06-12 06:39PM | 0 recs
Re: Enough of the Fake Apologies

I was raised in the South(ish) (Oklahoma) and I lived for several years in the Northeast (Boston.)  I can tell you that southerners are far, far more intolerant of northerners than the other way around.  In my time in Boston, I learned that Bostonians are arrogant and condescending toward southerners, but in fairness, they're arrogant and condescending to everyone.  Southerners just take it personally, and they often can't help it.  It's usually ignorance, as many haven't seriously traveled through or lived in the Northeast or the other "elitist" strongholds.

I remember when I was getting ready to go to MIT, a fellow in my church warned me, in all seriousness, not to trust those northerners.  Yeah, and he's an educated man (a wingnut in the highest order, but he knows his stuff most of the time.)

When southerners use the excuse of disliking the elitist city-dwellers and so on, trust me, they're more guilty of the intolerance than the city-dwellers are.  I know, because I am more or less one of them.

by nanoboy 2007-06-12 06:08PM | 0 recs
Re: Enough of the Fake Apologies

There is some wisdom to what this guy is saying. Southerners do tend to take things more personally.

I live in Georgia, when I travel to northern metropolises I do find people to be generally more rude and condescending. In the south you simply cannot call somebody you do not know a "fucking cock," or whatever you Bostonians say. Those are fighting words, you will get punched in the face.

My point here is that the culture in the way people interact (namely, politeness) isn't the same all over the country. A southerner might read a post and take it more personally than somebody else would.

That being said I have no idea who this guy 'mudcat' is or what context his post was in.

by wiretapp 2007-06-12 09:25PM | 0 recs
What is elitism?

I wish these guys would define "elite". It seems to be a club they're never a part of. I call a big-shot DC campaign consultant "elitist" - even if he pretends not to be of or from DC.

by zappatero 2007-06-12 05:20PM | 0 recs
Re: What is elitism?
He lives in North Carolina dumb ass.
by philgoblue 2007-06-12 05:58PM | 0 recs
Yea! North Carolina is 100% free of snobbery!

Fucking Democrats. I hate them soooo much. Thank god there aren't any in North Carolina!

by mermzilla 2007-06-12 06:01PM | 0 recs
ugh, you just don't get it
The issue is: do we Whistle Past Dixie or Try to Understand Southern and Rural Democrats and have a Big Tent Party with a 50-state strategy. Mudcat never said there weren't racists jackasses in the South. There are, and he beats the crap out of them, ask Mark Warner and Jim Webb and Tim Kaine.
by philgoblue 2007-06-12 06:25PM | 0 recs
Re: ugh, you just don't get it

That's not the issue he brought up.
He brought up a different issue than that.
He was talking about how the Metropolitian Wing (Liberals) are being intolerant (!).

I just think it's a bs argument. As long as a pol is with me on economic/trade issues, he can do what he wants with regards to moral issues like Abortion/Gun Control.

There are, however, certain principles we can't compromise on. Science and evolution need to be respected. Racism and xenophobia aren't acceptable.

The thing is, I don't think Mudcat was defending racism or xenophobia, which means he was arguing about a non-existent problem.

And sucking Joe Klein's dick.

by mermzilla 2007-06-12 06:46PM | 0 recs
Re: Enough of the Fake Apologies

He's full of shit.

by PsiFighter37 2007-06-12 05:30PM | 0 recs
Re: Enough of the Fake Rows
You're full of shit.
by philgoblue 2007-06-12 05:57PM | 0 recs
No, you're full of shit!

and FYI, I still support Edwards, even though his advisers (and supporters) don't understand the basics of reasonable discourse.

by mermzilla 2007-06-12 06:00PM | 0 recs
Re: Enough of the Fake Rows

I know you are, but what am I?


by PsiFighter37 2007-06-12 06:30PM | 0 recs
Re: Enough of the Fake Apologies

wow, look at all the mudcat loving concern trolls.

(and if you're thinking, "who the hell is he calling a concern troll??  he didn't specify any concern trolls or comments that could be considered concern-trollish," well then i'd say now you understand the problem.  sorry if you got upset about me calling you a concern troll.  but hey, i mouth off all the time and what can i do about it if you get upset?)

by corn dog 2007-06-12 05:35PM | 0 recs
Re: Enough of the Fake Apologies

riiiiight, because most bloggers have a hard time stating their real criticisms and go looking for surrogates to attack as proxies for their real target.  if only people in the blogosphere would just say what's on their minds!!!

by corn dog 2007-06-12 05:42PM | 0 recs
Enough of Fake Rows
Matt, read the book, he says quite clearly who the "Metropolitan Opera Democrats" are. And it just shows your lack of prudence to claim that saying that is gay-baiting. God, this story wasn't worth an open thread comment and y'all just want to discuss it ad nauseum. Well, you're on your own.
by philgoblue 2007-06-12 05:57PM | 0 recs
Why use the label?

Come on. He was clearly trying to provoke people.

Honestly, all that bugs me is that people are defending him with such meaningless rhetoric and not even addressing the basic arguments of this post.

by mermzilla 2007-06-12 06:04PM | 0 recs
Quite clearly

Saunders' original post was discussing the people who were deriding Joe Klein for his support of Scooter Libby. Saunders says for a "perfect example of how this 'intolerance' is helping the Democrats lose national elections, check out the responses to Joe Klein's post on Paris and Libby." Those are the people he's addressing in the pervious paragraph as the "Metropolitan Opera Wing" of the Democratic party.

You can make any claim you want about what he says in his book, but Saunders drew a straight line between the people commenting on Swampland about Klein's sucking up to Libby and the people he calls the "Metropolitan Opera Wing", apparently without any knowledge of who the commenters were.

Quite frankly, I'm not sure when the last time I saw anything approaching a brawl break out off-stage at the opera. I can't imagine that you find a lot of people yelling at each other or a lot of "incivility" among the crowd at the Met. But "incivility" is what Saunders is whining about in his post.

He seems confused. Maybe the hat's too tight.

by darrelplant 2007-06-12 09:32PM | 0 recs
Treat Mudcat like your spouse!

Is that what I'm supposed to take away from this comment?

by mermzilla 2007-06-12 05:58PM | 0 recs

by mermzilla 2007-06-12 06:40PM | 0 recs
Re: Treat Mudcat like your spouse!

geez, get defensive much?  how on earth does that comment translate to accusations of racism?  that's your southerner complex where you feel you constantly have to defend yourself against us elitist yanks.  stop it.  we don't actually think you're all racist.  stop with the geographic stereotypes (wait - where have i heard that sentiment before?)  i'm sorry you're touchy about it, but that ain't our fault.

i'm also sorry you, "mudcat" and those other real americans down in the south don't like the opera, it's pretty beautiful.  and guess what - i'm one of those rural people too and i can still appreciate the opera, lattes, volvos and sushi while simultaneously being an authentic, christian, rural white dude. my only problem is that i'm not from south of the mason dixon line.  

and that's the problem with this crap he's spewing.  he's staking his flag in this mythical rural south where it's simply ludicrous to enjoy opera, where people from metropolitan areas are worthy of contempt.  so much so that the very label "metropolitan" is itself an insult.  and he's saying that that place, that ideal is the only viable ideal and that everyone else can go to hell.

by corn dog 2007-06-12 06:51PM | 0 recs
Re: Enough of the Fake Apologies

Seriously, did he still your girlfriend in high school or something?

by js noble 2007-06-12 06:02PM | 0 recs
Re: Enough of the Fake Apologies

er, steal.

by js noble 2007-06-12 06:02PM | 0 recs
Re: Enough of the Fake Apologies
I have to agree that it's his butchering of the English language that really grates, as if he's not obligated to put forth fully coherent arguments for  a non-thinking public.
     My family's from the south, and I also get tired of the stereotypes that the south is painted with. But for God's sake, please make your case coherently and thoughtfully- maybe even  with supportive evidence!- if you're going to be that inflammatory.
by sb 2007-06-12 06:20PM | 0 recs
Re: Enough of the Fake Apologies

to the "geez, what's the big deal" crowd, i'd say this: when someone tells you to go to hell, calls you a psuedo intellectual and so on, them's fightin words, so to speak.  sure, if it was me saying it on my no traffic blog, then who cares.  but when a supposedly big time dem consultant advising a top tier presidential candidate uses Time Magazine to attack a group of people he so clearly doesn't understand and without citing anything more than stereotypes, then there's gonna be some push back.  and when that group of people happens to be the only group that prefers his candidate over the others, that makes it stupid.  so stupid that it begs the question, this guy advises politicians????

yeah, it's a small fight.  but people in the blogosphere have been bashing their heads into the wall for years now screaming for dems to fight back when attacked.  well, here ya go.

by corn dog 2007-06-12 06:21PM | 0 recs
Re: Enough of the Fake Apologies

"I am saying if someone apologizes to someone in the south it would be accepted and leave it at that."

OK, but he didn't actually apologize for what he did.

It would be like if I was driving and I rear ended you, and my apology was "oh man, I'm sorry I was driving on this road".

by mermzilla 2007-06-12 06:49PM | 0 recs
Re: Enough of the Fake Apologies

well, you're right and wrong.  yes, by definition an apology is an apology.

but say i tripped you and you fell.  and then say i apologized for the ground being so hard.  that's an apology.  sure, it's not an apology for what i did wrong, but by your math that's not important because the word "apologize" in any context is enough.

and the issue of the fake apology is important in our public discourse.  the reason is because so many people pull the sorry-for-the-ground-being-so-hard apology routine and people like you think, "hey, what a great guy, he apologized," when he did nothing of the sort.  that allows the offense to stay out there and allows the speaker to weasel out.

by corn dog 2007-06-12 06:59PM | 0 recs
He works on "the campaign"
In case there's any question about whether Mudhen works for the Edwards campaign, he answered it in this SwampBlog comment just a few minutes ago:
..I intend to address the "God" issue in a main page post (Is that what you call it?) tomorrow. I will answer your question at that time. I've got to do some work on the campaign tonight, but I will come back tomorrow and answer more questions on this comments page. Thanks, Mudcat
by TeddySanFran 2007-06-12 06:23PM | 0 recs

by mermzilla 2007-06-12 06:50PM | 0 recs
"Go to hell!"

How does it feel?

Not so sweet, does it, to be told to go to hell in print on a blog?

by TeddySanFran 2007-06-12 07:16PM | 0 recs
Not against suthroner, against morons

Just exactly what offended him?  He never said.

Who was it?  Again, no ID of those persons.

It was just a drive-by shooting of a blog.  Typical moronic crap from some campaign advisor, but a seriously stupid one.

by dataguy 2007-06-12 08:25PM | 0 recs
Screw You

This guy has done nothing wrong, and you're trying as hard as you can to be offended over nothing.

Do you get that you are not, to him, a Metropolitan Opera Liberal? That what he is describing is the kind of Democrat that does exist, the Broders and Russerts and Mark Penns of the party who aren't willing to fight, but instead sit back and donate their millions based on whoever the common wisdom of the day says is winning. It's not a fucking code-word for every NY democrat, it's an ACTUAL threat to our party. He's on OUR SIDE.

As far as the witless blogger thing goes? Are you too blind to realize there are some out there who are simply shrill for no good reason? (I realize that I am being shrill myself, but I'm just furious right now). Who abhor reasoned analysis for propaganda? They exist too. And guess what? MyDD can hardly be considered one of those places. He's stating realities, and apologized appropriately if anybody mistakingly put themselves in the wrong category. There are idiots out there in our party, and he's criticizing them. For Christ's sake, he even praises "bloggers who believe in a straight-forward dialogue and exchange of ideas"! Guess who the standard bearer of that kind of attitude is? MYDD!!

That is, it was until you went on this defensive screed. (Again, I realize the irony.)

by pluto101 2007-06-12 08:13PM | 0 recs
No, Screw YOU!

I have bitched and moaned for years about the lack of tolerance in the elitist wing of the Democratic Party, or what I refer to as the "Metropolitan Opera Wing". These are the people who talk of tolerance but the only true tolerance they ever exhibit is for their own pseudo-intellectual arrogance.

If you want a perfect example of how this "intolerance" is helping the Democrats lose national elections, check out the responses to Joe Klein's post on Paris and Libby.

He was complaining about the people commenting on Klein's post. Unless you think "the Broders and Russerts and Mark Penns of the party" were commenting on Klein's post, you're assumption is incorrect.

by darrelplant 2007-06-12 09:37PM | 0 recs
Mudcat is a moron

He began the original column by stating that he didn't read blogs. He then insulted a "wing" of the Democratic Party for something, but he never explained what.  He didn't give any examples.  He didn't state clearly what offended him.

The guy is a seriously stupid bozo, and anyone who listens to him is similarly stupid.

by dataguy 2007-06-12 08:23PM | 0 recs
Re: Enough of the Fake Apologies

Me? I reckon I'm jes a gotdamn Yankee who's been born and bred to be intolerant of all them good Southren folk.

But then my momma taught me that it was good...

it was righteous...

it was appropriate, heh, to be intolerant of...

This sort of thing.

Yeah, the modern south. What a great place as compared to where us 'Metroplitan Opera Wingers' on the nasty, evil coasts.

Tell you what. I don't accept Ol' Mudcat's pathetic apology because if I did I'd have to view him as other than the racist prick he in fact is.

His transparently adolescent attempt to seize the spotlight for reasons he seems unable to articulate is not seen for that which it is in today's toxic media environment where candidates for president can tell any divisive racist, xenophobic lie on national TV, pat themselves on the back and cut a check to vile scum like Saunders for their 'good work'.


But I and plenty of others are here in the blogosphere to point this out.

And I'm not shutting up.
And yeah, when I see Edwards I'll tell him the same thing.

by Pericles 2007-06-12 09:37PM | 0 recs
Re: Enough of the Fake Apologies

Before  today, I had never heard of this Mudcat gentleman before. Suffice to say he is simply another reason to encourage the states below the Mason-Dixon Line to secede again. Free at last, free at last, thank God almighty, we're free of them at last!

And to rssrai: you are a southerner, not a 'southernor', whatever that is.

by John Seal 2007-06-12 10:29PM | 0 recs
If Obama had Mudcat as his advisor

this story would be pushed endlessly by Edwards supporters. The double standards are simply breathtaking.

by Populism2008 2007-06-12 11:56PM | 0 recs
Re: Enough of the Fake Apologies

Now, this is an apology:


by Arcadian 2007-06-13 05:09AM | 0 recs
Re: Enough of the Fake Apologies

I'm going to call him David as if he is a fully functional adult male.

Ah, you and Mike Piazza think alike - he would only call Chipper Jones by his fully-functioning-adult-male name, "Larry."  

by eRobin 2007-06-13 07:18AM | 0 recs
I think you're missing the point

The problem with this diary is that by keeping the focus on Mudcat, Mr. Stoller is ignoring the real news, which is that rural voters are in play for Democrats.

The other point is that Democrats need rural votes to win the White House and more seats in Congress.  

As long as we keep talking about Mudcat's tone and manner, we'll ignore the real story with is that Democrats have a real opportunity.

by Nick Stump 2007-06-13 08:11AM | 0 recs
Re: Enough of the Fake Apologies

let me get this straight now. you guys at mydd are going off on Mudcat for being a whore for Joe Klein and voicing his opinion over at swampland. he gets portrayed as being some kind of DC consultant guy like Carvelle or Shrum or something. he then responds that he has never taken a DIME in payment from the last three campaigns he has been involved with advising, Warner, Webb, and now Edwards. but seems to me that i read an article back last Oct. 31,2006 in National Journal talking about some guys named Jerome Armstrong and Matt Stoller getting paid by campaigns to blog for them! anybody round here heard of these guys? some folks need to look in the mirror!

by wlb 2007-06-13 09:05AM | 0 recs
Re: Enough of the Fake Apologies

No response, huh. what happened, did the mirror break?

by wlb 2007-06-13 10:07PM | 0 recs


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