How Could Dean Be Ousted?

I worked for Simon Rosenberg for DNC Chair.  I've read the charter and the bylaws of the Democratic National Committee, and I've seen the process up close.  It's an election to become DNC Chair.  Dean won, he won on a platform of putting money towards state parties, and he delivered on that mandate to the people who voted for him.  So I don't really understand what James Carville thinks he's doing with these kinds of comments.

Some big name Democrats want to oust DNC Chairman Howard Dean, arguing that his stubborn commitment to the 50-state strategy and his stinginess with funds for House races cost the Democrats several pickup opportunities.

The candidate being floated to replace Dean? Harold Ford.

Says James Carville, one of the anti-Deaniacs, "Suppose Harold Ford became chairman of the DNC? How much more money do you think we could raise? Just think of the difference it could make in one day. Now probably Harold Ford wants to stay in Tennessee. I just appointed myself his campaign manager."

I honestly don't get this.  How exactly are they going to push Dean out?  Aside from spreading nasty rumors and cutting off big donors, which they've been doing for years, what leverage do they have on Dean?  I'm not defending Dean's tenure, I'm just curious why these people seem to think that they can oust him.  What do they know that I don't?  Or do they just think that the world works through dishonest rumors spread in the CNN green room?

If you are a DNC delegate or a state party chair, I'd appreciate feedback both positive and negative.  Please email me at matt at  All emails will be kept confidential.

A threat (Chris): If Howard Dean is ousted as DNC chair, I will start a campaign for all small donors and all netroots actiivsts to stop giving money to the DNC, DSCC, DCCC, DLCC and DGA. This is not an idle threat. Democratic parties and committees will lose tens of millions of dollars every year if they do this. Count on it.

Update: Here's the DNC Charter. The answer to 'how Dean could be removed' is if a majority of the Democratic National Committee members vote to remove him. If anyone wants to get a majority of DNC members to voice public support of Dean, that would be the way to tell Carville and co. to STFU.

Tags: Howard Dean (all tags)



Why not?


Why are you not defending Dean's tenure? CW when Dean took the job was that he would be judged by Dem performance in 2006. Well, by that metric he totally kicked ass, right? Now they are rewriting the criteria? Total bullshit.

by miasmo 2006-11-10 08:48AM | 0 recs
Re: Why not?

I suspect from context that Matt is just asking for information and not looking to start a Dean vs. Emmanuel battle with this particular post. It doesn't mean he will not defend Dean's tenure, just that he's not doing it here, in this post. OTOH, he might not defend Dean's tenure. But again, not relevant to what he's asking here.

by lightyearsfromhome 2006-11-10 09:22AM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?

The Democratic nomenklaturawill never forgive Dean for one sentence: "I am Howard Dean, and I represent the Democratic Wing of the Democratic Party."

In politics, being right, being right in public, and especially being right too soon, is at least as dangerous to your career as being wrong.

They will not stop until Dean is destroyed.

by Davis X Machina 2006-11-10 08:49AM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?

And right about Iraq - the biggest foreign policy blunder in the modern era that was aided and abetted by the Dem DC nomenklatura.

by ab initio 2006-11-10 09:15AM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?

I think they hate him because he actually plays to the base.
Shunning the base, and acting like ALL left-wing convictions are childish is some kind of symbolic right of passage with these bastards.

Honestly, I didn't give a damn about Howard Dean in 2004. I got my news from CNN/NYTimes and all I got was the 'YEAAAAH' and criticism about the 'YEAAAH'.

He's won me over, and I know he's won quite a few dems over who agreed with what he said but thought he was an idiot in 2004. They probably see him getting more popular, and see that the grass roots is finally picking up some steam.

They also know that any honest American who's engaged with the political process isn't going to stand for their patronizing tone and quid-pro-quo politics.

I think it's really just establishment v. anti-establishment and status-quo v. reform.
Most DC Dems drink the kool aid. Fuck them.

Most importantly, fuck Carville for raining on the parade after a great victory. I didn't have a problem with him until now, and I'm not going to forget what a dismissive asshole he was.

by mermzilla 2006-11-10 08:26PM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?

When are people going to learn that the Clintonistas (and by extension the Clintons) DON'T support the 50-state strategy, like they say they do.

Don't support the netroots, like they say they do.

And believe in a top-down approach to politics.

Guess who they think we should have on top?

Remember that we lost the Congress for the first time in 40 years under the Clinton Administration and they will throw each and every one of us under the bus if it served their purpose.

We are not on the same side.

They are the enemy.

by JackBourassa 2006-11-10 08:50AM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?

Good points. Important not get seduced by the DC establishment. They are all corporatists!

by ab initio 2006-11-10 09:17AM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?

Some big name Democrats want to oust DNC Chairman Howard Dean, arguing that his stubborn commitment to the 50-state strategy and his stinginess with funds for House races cost the Democrats several pickup opportunities.

I can't decide whether this is some sort of fucked up retribution for showing up how out of touch the Beltway crowd is, or someone's idea of a powerplay in anticipation of the 2008 fight.

If McAuliffe or Rendell were still running it, we'd be looking at a VERY different 110th Congress.

Besides Carville, who the hell are "big name Democrats"? Let's get this out in the open now, instead of 18 months from now.


by GuyFromOhio 2006-11-10 08:53AM | 0 recs
If dean is removed I will never give

another dollar of my Fucking hard earned money to the DNC ever again. The DC insiders rather lose power than share power with the people. Well the DC insiders can go to hell.

by HCLiberal 2006-11-10 08:54AM | 0 recs
Cash out

If dean is removed I will never give ... another dollar of my Fucking hard earned money to the DNC ever again.

My words. Me & ActBlue got to be really good friends. You want to screw the leadership that got you here? Fine. I'll contribute directly to candidates in EVERY SINGLE PRIMARY as long as I draw breath.

What the hell is in the water in DC?


by GuyFromOhio 2006-11-10 09:05AM | 0 recs
I didn't donate to Harold Ford when

...he was running in TN.

I did donate to the DNC with Howard Dean as chair.

If James Carville stages a coup and installs Harold Ford as DNC chair, then I won't give to the DNC.

by Eric Jaffa 2006-11-10 09:22AM | 0 recs
Harold Ford to replace Dean? BS!

The guy is way too right wing, and not in a good way.  I never liked him because I felt he would sell us out the first chance he got.  He is a big money, fuck the base guy.  If he had had the spine to be a Dem he might have won that race.  I never liked him.  I won't give them a dime if they take out Dean.  What I will do is go on a fucking Jihad to destroy those fuckers if they even THINK about trying it.

The 50 State Strategy stays and so does Dean.  We wouldn't have won without it.

by pjv 2006-11-10 11:56AM | 0 recs
Re: Harold Ford to replace Dean? BS!

I agree,
It's scary how quickly the establishment dems revert to their own status-quo superiority.

Seriously, I used to like Carville, he had that wierd folksy kind of freak-show ugly charm.

I think they're basically trying to put the netroots 'in our place', which they won't be able to do...

I wasn't really politically active until I started reading Kos and MyDD, and once you're in, you're in for the long run. I'm sure that scares the hell out of those quid-pro-quo corrupt conventional-wisdom spewing pieces of shit who think that money is the ONLY thing that matters in elections.

Seriously, fuck them, and fuck them especially because they're doing this right after a really great win for the democratic party AND the netroots.

by mermzilla 2006-11-10 08:17PM | 0 recs
Why Does James Carville Hate Democracy?

by PeterB 2006-11-10 08:56AM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?

restore turnerbroadcasting's account and he can tell you what you need to know.

by heyAnita 2006-11-10 08:57AM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?

They're attacking Dean the same way you're attacking Rahm.

The fact is, Democrats won in 2006 and BOTH deserve credit for it.  Dean for his 50-state strategy and Emmanuel for recruiting strong candidates in the more conventional toss-up races.

Hopefully, the large amounts of money Dean put into places like Utah and Mississippi will pay off in the long run, but I can see their idea that he was burning through the money and didn't work well with Schumer and Emmanuel.

by MyDD Fan 2006-11-10 09:00AM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?

interesting spin on the facts- its your fault they are attacking Dean- is Dean the head of mydd or the DNC?

by bruh21 2006-11-10 09:03AM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?

I'm not saying attacking Rahm resulted in them attacking Dean.

My only point is that we've been talking about a Republican civil war upcoming, but you've still got the DLC and Netroots fighting with each other in the Democrat Party.

by MyDD Fan 2006-11-10 09:17AM | 0 recs
"Democrat Party"

What is this "Democrat Party"?

by kvenlander 2006-11-10 09:41AM | 0 recs
Re: "Democrat Party"

Probably a typo. I have to agree, Carville was not just stupid and wrong suggesting that Dean should be thrown out, but also arrogant. And it doesn't serve the party to be eating our own the day after we win both the House and the Senate. And Howard Dean and the organizations he built has done more to reinvigorate the Democratic Party.

But 2006 wouldn't have been 2006 without both the insiders AND the netroots/grassroots. We need ballbusters like Rahm Emmanuel and asses like Carville to make the trains run on time AND the Howard Deans and other progressives to remember why we're getting on the train in the first place.

The point is this: the enemy isn't other Democrats. The enemy is fear, corruption, and cynicism that keeps our Democracy from working.

by afertig 2006-11-10 09:48AM | 0 recs
Re: "Democrat Party"

What idiocy that it was Rahm and Carville who made the trains run on time. They brushed elbows with the Beltway crowd. They bought the conventional wisdom about what and who to run where, but didn't have a clue what people in individual districts really wanted or needed. They were so contemptuous of voters that they didn't even think that they could write off whole swaths of the country, because it would be "too much trouble" to win seats in difficult districts. They were as divorced from reality as the republicans, and they have been for a long time. If it weren't for Howard Dean and the netroots, Rahm and Carville would have just told us to like what they offered or lump it. Is it any surprise, then, that so many said, fine, lump it? Or that, eventually, even more of them said, if you won't brings us the goddamned trains, we'll get them there ourselves, even if we have to build the station and lay down the lines. And that's what Dean and the netroots did, inch by painful inch. Oh, when the stations we built turned out so pretty (and so profitable) and looked like lots of people might want to ride them, it looked like they might be going somewhere, then Rahm was interested. But not one second before.

So, no, he doesn't deserve to come from the wrong side of the tracks to play engineer. He can just go to the refrigerator car where he belongs, one part of the train, but only one part, and not even the driving force.

by Aquaria 2006-11-10 03:03PM | 0 recs
Re: "Democrat Party"

Argh, change the bit about being contemptuos of voters to read that "they thought they could write off whole swaths." Argh. Preview is my friend. Preview is my friend.

by Aquaria 2006-11-10 03:05PM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?

Only republicans use the term "Democrat Party"

by LionelEHutz 2006-11-10 10:10AM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?

I'd like someone to say (on TV) "It's The DemocratIC Party.  If you won't call us the "Democrat" Party we won't call you the "Publican" Party.


one who farmed the taxes (e.g., Zacchaeus, Luke 19:2) to be levied from a town or district, and thus undertook to pay to the supreme government a certain amount. In order to collect the taxes, the publicans employed subordinates (5:27; 15:1; 18:10), who, for their own ends, were often guilty of extortion and peculation. In New Testament times these taxes were paid to the Romans, and
hence were regarded by the Jews as a very heavy burden, and hence also the collectors of taxes, who were frequently Jews, were hated, and were usually spoken of in very opprobrious terms. Jesus was accused of being a "friend of publicans and sinners" (Luke 7:34).

by Demetrius 2006-11-10 11:20AM | 0 recs
They say Democrat Party - I say...

Repugnant Party

And then I ask them how it feels to have their Party's correct name mangled.

It shuts them up

by merbex 2006-11-10 02:23PM | 0 recs
publican party

i've been calling them publicans for the past two months on skippy.



by skippy 2006-11-10 05:18PM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?

You are putting words in MyDD Fan's mouth. He did not say or imply that one is the cause of the other. The actual logic behind

They're attacking Dean the same way you're attacking Rahm.
seems to be that attacking either one is somehow inherently either equally valid or equally invalid. Consider the same logic with different characters:
They're attacking Roosevelt the same way you're attacking Hitler.

I personally view Rahm, as an agreessive member of the corporatist wing of the Democratic Party, as the enemy. I see no equivalence between attacking Rahm and attacking Dean, an agressive member of the people-powered wing of the party. I know which side I'm on.

by miasmo 2006-11-10 09:25AM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?

it was a joke

by bruh21 2006-11-10 09:32AM | 0 recs

They're attacking Dean the same way you're attacking Rahm.

My first thought was, you're wrong. But I can see how it can seen that way.

My $0.02 - Dean has said repeatedly (and again on Olbermann the other evening) you want a national party, you have to compete nationally.

I have never heard anything like this out of Rahm Emmanuel. And his play in IL-06, kicking Cegelis to the curb to dump $3 million on Duckworth demonstrates he doesn't think that way either.

And I'll grant you that Dean, Rahm, Schumer, et al, all pulled to win, and win we did. We just weren't pulling TOGETHER.

So Dean gets the arrows in the back?

I'll echo what's above - if Dean gets pushed, my money goes elsewhere. I've already abandoned the DSCC and DCCC for shitty leadership. It doesn't stop there.


by GuyFromOhio 2006-11-10 09:10AM | 0 recs
If it were up to Rahm

There would be no 50 state strategy and we would NEVER begin the necessary process of party building outside of the "blue" and "swing states". Funny thing happens when you build the party nationwide: "swing" states (like Ohio) become "blue" states and "red" states (like Montana) become "swing" states....

by Jim in Chicago 2006-11-10 09:22AM | 0 recs
Re: If it were up to Rahm

This is the smartest thing I've read today.  Thank you.

by Demetrius 2006-11-10 11:13AM | 0 recs
NO Equivilence

MyDD Fan:

They're attacking Dean the same way you're attacking Rahm.

The fact is, Democrats won in 2006 and BOTH deserve credit for it.  Dean for his 50-state strategy and Emmanuel for recruiting strong candidates in the more conventional toss-up races.

Not quite.  Dean's 50-state strategy is intentionally long-term, and trying to take him out now would (a) not be based on any objective criteria, and (b) undermine his stated objective before it could possibly be evaluated for effectiveness, regardless of your view of it's soundness.

OTOH, Rahm's strategy was stated as trying to recruit and support strong candidates in 30 or so seats in order to win the 15 seats necessary to gain a majority.

What happened in 2006 is that Dean's strategy paid off much faster than expected, because of (1) parallel efforts--strongly supported here at MyDD--to recruit candidates in 435 districts, (2) a wave of voter resentment and rejection of the GOP, (3) focused above all on Iraq, (4) which Rahm didn't want us to talk about.  Furthermore, a number of high-profile candidates were opposed by Rahm--Shea Porter and McNerny, for example--while his darling Tammy Duckworth went down to $3 million defeat.

In other words, while there is certainly something to say in the way of giving Rahm credit, there's also a good deal to say in terms of blaming him for not doing considerably better.

Dean, OTOH, has (a) not been fairly evaluated on the criteria of his longterm aims, but (b) contributed in unexpected ways to short-term success.

The only criticism they can mount is that Dean didn't give them more money.  They say that if they'd had more money, they could have maybe spent it in a few more competetive districts, and won even more seats.  But (1) if they'd had their way from the beginning, those seats would have never been close in the first place and (2) no one held a gun to Rahm's head and forced him to spend $3 million on Tammy Duckworth.  He could have shelled out another $100,000 on 15 more seats, and still poured $1.5 million into her campaign.

Or he could have just borrowed more at the end.  He's the big money guy, after all.  Not that hard refilling the well, just throw a "meet-the-new-Representatives" fundraiser.

In short, the criticism of Rahm is reality-based.  The criticism of Dean is not.  There is no equivilence.

by Paul Rosenberg 2006-11-10 10:44AM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?

Dean had a vison and PLANNED on how to raise money, as well as organize and re-organize the state parties. Rahm FAILED to plan, manage or provide the leaderhsip for the long term cash needs. Rahm did some good things yes - but he is a "Prima Donna", and no different than whinney Lieberman, by trying to blame other for his own lack of managment and planning skills.

by Grandma M 2006-11-10 10:54AM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?

THe attacks on Rahm got worse only when those guys and their surrogates started marginalizing every other contributing factor to the dem victories but their own on every tv channel. Besides, Dean has been extremely gracious to Rahm and Co. Don't you agree. I have never seen Rahm be gracious towards Dean. Schumer pretty much says "right" when Bill o reilly bashed Dean and Murtha as to what is wrong about the dem party's iraq policy.

I have said this before and will say it again. I have seen netroots try to get establishment to work with us with the recognition that we cannot win without their support in CT and other places. I see Rahm and their types as those who think they achieve every major victory without any help from the base.

by Pravin 2006-11-10 12:59PM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?

Howard Dean promised not to run for President. If they throw him out (and I do not see how they could) Dean would no longer be bound by that promise.

I think Carville is speaking for TimeWarner as much as the Clintons. I think his thinking has been shaped by his experience there.

There is a big non-blog world out there and many of them don't like blogs one little bit. I have spent ours and sent out zillions of emails to otherwise intelligent Democrats trying to convince them that blogs are a good thing. Carville in many ways speaks for those people. It is annoying, but they still have to be won over.

by Alice Marshall 2006-11-10 09:00AM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?

carville is clueless - he is only speaking about what he knows only from some rumours he heard during ad buys

but the people who were buying the ads didn't know the whole story

there is a threat to the dean chairmanship, but only those loyal enough to dean will actually find out exactly what it is.

by heyAnita 2006-11-10 09:14AM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?

I'd like to see which races these "big name democrats" think we had a chance if Dean had not be committed to making our party a national party, like it should be.

If anything at all, 2006 was a vindication of Dean's 50 state strategy.

My guess, these "big name dems" are Dick Morris (more of a joke than a democrat) Marshall Whittman, Joe Liberman, and Hillary Clinton (who herself can be blamed for several lost opportunites to help pick up seats).

I'm was worried about Dean suffering from Foot in mouth syndrome, but no more. His leadership has been great.  

by bjschmid 2006-11-10 09:00AM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?

Marshall Wittmann is not a Democrat, and as far as I know has never claimed to be one. He describes himself as an independent. Why the DLC has him around I don't know.

And of course Lieberman is a Democrat only in the sense that he still has a Democratic voter registration card in his wallet.

by KCinDC 2006-11-10 09:09AM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?

Marshall Whittman? Curious...

I would add Lanny Davis to this list. I hate that smarmy fucker.

by Aquaria 2006-11-10 03:10PM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?

I don't think he can be ousted, frankly.  In the last election the Washington power elite learned to their horror that they don't control the way the DNC delegates vote -- and they still haven't gotten over that fact.  By and large the DNC state parties are very very happy with Dean (except for my own state party here in Illinois, sigh: too much machine, too much status quo as a way of maintaining power, not enough passion for voters)and I just don't see that "they" are going to be able to scrape together enough votes to oust him.  And if they try -- I think they'll be in for a big shock.  They're annoyed because he doesn't spend enough time in Washington hobnobbing with them . . . instead he goes out and hobnobs with people on the ground in each state . . . i.e., the people who voted him into office.  So -- I'd like to see them try .  . .

by Maven 2006-11-10 09:10AM | 0 recs
DNC delegates from Illinois

One of them is Chicago 49th Ward Alderman Joe Moore. As strong a Dean supporter as there is....

by Jim in Chicago 2006-11-10 09:24AM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?

I have been hearing for a long time from all my DC friends (lobbyists, dem congressional staffers, etc) that Dean was doing a terrible job, didn't have any money, and in short, was a failure as a chairman.  Those descriptions never really went away.  There was a lot of discontent and I never really got the full story, but I know a lot fo DC people felt that if the demcrats lost Dean was going to be to blame.

by tiberius 2006-11-10 09:12AM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?

a) they didn't lose

b) of course they are unhappy- he's not giving them control over the DNC- instead he gives it to the states.

by bruh21 2006-11-10 10:07AM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?

No way! This election is a validation of Dean and a repudiation of party control by political consultants. Those people are just worried about the gravy train drying up. This is a good time for all of us to slap down Carville and send him home to Mary Matalin.

by cmpnwtr 2006-11-10 09:13AM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?

I don't know if he can be pushed aside, but this is yet another heads-up to the Clinton Mafia that Bill and Hillary would like to get this done. 6/644

The last Clinton to-do item was re-electing Joe Lieberman, and they accomplished that by having Bill Clinton throw Ned Lamont under the bus on Larry King.  If you want Dean to stay, you better be prepared to fight like hell.

by MarkB 2006-11-10 09:13AM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?

After the mid-terms the presidential candidates become the important constituency for the DNC. DNC delegates will line up behind candidates, and if a number of candidates are not happy with Dean their delegates will pressure him to move on. The candidates will be looking hard for evidence that Dean can raise enough money and build a ground campaign that can support them in the general.

Dean's high run-rate (over $4 million/month) and lack of cash on-hand will be a concern, he will have to make a compelling case that his spending on the 50 state project is efficient and will make a big difference in the 2008 presidential. Even candidates inclined to support Dean's long term party building will need a lot of money for TV from the DNC.

by souvarine 2006-11-10 09:15AM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?

Carville just lost a lot of my respect.  On the other hand, some folks in the blogosphere whose first response to this victory was to bash Rahm haven't impressed me either.  As Paul Hackett would say, quit being typical Democrats.

by Steve M 2006-11-10 09:16AM | 0 recs
Rahm on MSNBC

On the other hand, some folks in the blogosphere whose first response to this victory was to bash Rahm haven't impressed me either.

Methinks it may have been the big wet kisses to Rahm on MSNBC that kicked off that particular spate of Rahm-bashing.

As I said in another comment, Emmanuel, Schumer, Dean, et al, all pulled to win, and win we did. We just didn't pull TOGETHER.


by GuyFromOhio 2006-11-10 09:39AM | 0 recs
Re: Rahm on MSNBC

Schumer playing political kissy-face with Bill O'Reilly on the O'Reilly show -- on the day after the election, for god's sake --- when the Loofa King began dissing Dean on Iraq, and all Schumer could manage was nodding his head and saying 'yes, yes' might have had something to do with it too.

by flatlander100 2006-11-10 09:51AM | 0 recs
Re: Rahm on MSNBC

Schumer, Emmanuel and Dean should all be embracing each other as equal partners in this success. (eventhough I think Dean's work will prove more valuable in the long run) Carville should be taken to the woodshed for denigrating Dean doing the job he was elected to do.

by Demetrius 2006-11-10 11:26AM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?

I am not going to speak for everyone. But I know a lot of the angry comments started when all these old dems were going on tv hogging all the credit for Rahm and Schumer when it was false. Look at the slate artcile by Bruce Reed. Dean took tbe trouble to mention Rahm by name and give him credit on multiple occasions. I did not see Rahm do that once even though punidts were bashing the liberals when he was on some appearancs.

by Pravin 2006-11-10 01:03PM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?

Sounds to me like Carville's (1) eyeing the RNC's potential replacement for Ethel Mehlman, Michael Steele, and thinking the Dems need to counter with a minority; and (2) wanting back in, now that Dean has shown that the Dems are still a viable party separate and apart from the Republicans.

by watertiger 2006-11-10 09:22AM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?

Simple me.  GOP gets their ass kicked, and they throw Rummy and Ken-doll under the bus.  But certain of the ass-kickers want to throw their own chairman - who got them there, by ANY objective standard - under the bus?  Wha?

If anyone should be "purged" from the Democratic party, it's these dickheads.  They're making Joe look good.

by NickT 2006-11-10 09:22AM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?

Carville helped get Clinton elected, but since then he's gone D.C. party circuit, and I now believe he is actively working for the GOP.  He's nothing more than a Repub infiltrator.  We may as well go straight to Mehlman or Charlie Black for advice as soon as listen to Carville.

by Raenelle 2006-11-10 09:24AM | 0 recs
OK, so Carville has spoken. Does he

speak for anybody else?  I agree that the silence of Pelosi and Reid and other prominent Dem's concerning DNC's contributions to victory are somewhat telling, but has anybody other than Mr. Matalin recently suggested that Dean be replaced publicly?

by PeterB 2006-11-10 09:36AM | 0 recs
OK - per the article, I see that Carville is

serving as the public face behind which "big name Democrats" can snipe they want to replace him.  

Too bad for them, they didn't hire Dean, and they can't fire him either.

by PeterB 2006-11-10 09:57AM | 0 recs
How Long is Dean's Term?

I know that Mehlman at the RNC has a 2-year term that expires in January.

by davybaby 2006-11-10 09:36AM | 0 recs
Re: How Long is Dean's Term?

4 years. That's why he can't run for President in 2008.

by sxp151 2006-11-10 11:43AM | 0 recs
Dean did his job... what did Carville do?

Let's see. On election night 2004, Carville called his wife Mary Matalin, Cheney's hired gun, to tell them that Kerry was considering challenging voting conditions and results in Ohio. No sign he was particularly helpful in 06.

James, you're done.

At this point, if Dean goes, I go, and so does my money.

by wajanet 2006-11-10 09:36AM | 0 recs
Re: Dean did his job... what did Carville do?

Wajanet, you speak for me on this.  

Ford put a lot of energy plus some inconsistency into a not-awful campaign, made a better showing than some expected, and lost.  I respect him for doing all of that, even though he's not really in my part of the party.

Dean's 50 state strategy facilitated the BIGGEST EFFING SWEEP in I think my whole lifetime (okay that's not yet 4 decades) and Carville wants to REPLACE HIM???  Are you NUTS??  

Sorry sorry, I'll leave the shift key alone now...  Thanks, MyDDers, for giving me a constructive path to follow.  Sometimes the most constructive thing to do is expose liars and cheats, even if it will make people unhappy.  Carville's comments, on top of his past behavior, look strongly like sabotage or signals that he needs some professional help...

People interviewing/publishing this guy still counts as not quite as ironic as people quoting DeLay as some kind of authority on government (vs. on crime, which he can definitely speak to), but yeccch to Carville and KUDOS to Dean.

by Lyrebird 2006-11-10 10:03AM | 0 recs
Remember Carville's comments in 2004?

"IF we can win this one, we can't win shit."

I wonder if Carville just feels bad that Dean knows more about winning than Carville does.  Or perhaps Carville failed to understand that when the establishment put the hit job on Dean in 2004 primaries that the "we" in "we can't win shit" meant him and pricks like him.

Just a thought.

by jcjcjc 2006-11-10 09:44AM | 0 recs
Re: Remember Carville's comments in 2004?

I am just thinking he is looking for a job for Harold Ford....sort of DLC welfare for fallen candidates.

And all of this is first shot out of the gate for the Hillary people....Lisa Caputo did the same thing last night on Tweety..tried to give Rahm credit for winning STATE houses...then she realized her mistake, and said "it was a great team effort."

by nanorich 2006-11-10 09:47AM | 0 recs
Success has many fathers

Isn't that how the old saying goes?  Never met a success that everyone didn't want to claim.

Too bad the tale of the tape is against the chattering class on this election.

by jcjcjc 2006-11-10 06:34PM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?

We just won a great national victory. We took both houses of Congress. We won a majority of governorships. The fifty state strategy built democratic ogranizations in states that had long been virtually abandoned by the national party, and that paid big dividends in wresting control of state houses or increasing Dem representation in state houses all across the country.  Plus providing the infrastruction on the ground that could be ramped up fast as more and more House races suddenly became "in play" in the last weeks of the campaign. [Absent the 50 state party infrastructure building Dean did, those states would not have had the party organization in place capable of ramping up quickly as formerly "safe" Republican seats became "in play" late in the game.]

And now Carville wants to start an intra-party war to remove the head of the DNC who presided during the successful campaign?

Jesus H. Crist.  We don't deserve to govern.

by flatlander100 2006-11-10 09:47AM | 0 recs
Howard Dean, vindicated

By Joe Conason

"The DNC chairman's "crazy" strategy of rebuilding the Democratic Party across all states helped it ride the national wave against the GOP...

Despite all the complaints and demands directed at him over the past 18 months, Dean stuck to his principles. He and his supporters in the netroots movement believed that their party needed to rebuild from the ground up in every state, including many where the party existed in name only. These Democrats prefer to think of their party as one of inclusion and unity. They openly disdain the divisive strategies of the Republicans who have so often used racial, regional and cultural differences to polarize voters..."

"Much of that money was spent in ways that obviously paid off on Tuesday, including the 2005 election of Democratic Gov. Tim Kaine in Virginia -- where Jim Webb's upset victory over incumbent Sen. George Allen overturned Republican control of the Senate. Several million dollars was spent on rebuilding the party's national voter files, yet another essential sector in which the Republicans have enormous technological superiority..."

"What Dean and his organizers created, however, was an environment that allowed insurgents and outliers as well as the party's chosen challengers to ride the national wave of revulsion against conservative rule. That enterprise, in turn, surprised and overwhelmed the Republican capacity to respond. Faced with many more viable challenges than anticipated, the Republicans made mistakes in allocating resources -- and were forced to defend candidates in districts that are usually safe..."

Now the DC Insiders Losers want to throw Dean out. Again I say fuck them.

Read the Whole Salon Article

by HCLiberal 2006-11-10 09:51AM | 0 recs
Re: Howard Dean, vindicated

If the Democratic Party were a big, old mansion fallen into disrepair and being eaten by termites, then Howard Dean is the guy with enough guts to remove the old, termite-ridden flooring, shore up and level the foundation, rewire, replumb, and completely renovate.  

Carville wants to show up with a paint can and some nice wallpaper, and charge handsomely for his 'expertise.'  Nevermind about the termites, nor the sunken flooring and the wobbly walls.

Dean's vision and depth of analysis evidently piss off some of highly paid consultants, whose livlihoods are being threatened ;-)

by readerOfTeaLeaves 2006-11-10 01:14PM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?

And as was just pointed out over at Eschaton, Carville wants the DLC candidate Ford in so he can control him.

It's always about the power with these shitheads.

by watertiger 2006-11-10 09:52AM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?

bingo. after running a losing campaign down in TN, they want to bring this kind of defeatism to the rest of the party? give me a break

by bruh21 2006-11-10 10:10AM | 0 recs
Maybe it's a fetish?

Because I honestly don't get how this mentality works.  I mean, one can argue that Dean is the same thing, but that ignores that Dean was the victim of an old-fashioned political hit job from all directions (righties who feared the anti-war message and lefties who feared being bypassed by someone who knew what the hell he was doing).

Carville magically occupies a place in the hearts of the lefties who think they can bullshit their way into office.

by jcjcjc 2006-11-10 06:40PM | 0 recs
Re: Maybe it's a fetish?

it's simple business know how. basically how corp america works is similar to what carville is doing. some might call it chutzpah. he basically has got nothing, but he is trying to turn it into something, look at how he's got folks here talking about him , and what he said. it's one of those techniques people use in negotiation- even if you aint got anything, you act like you do. my friend who is a church goer said her reverend gave them at the begining of the year a new word that he wanted his congregants to learn- audacity. what he meant was that more can be done by simply saying and doing it than can be done by overthinking it. what does he have to lose here by putting out this trial ballon? nothing. he endears himself to whatever faction he represents politically, and with us, well, we dont matter in the equation because  we aren't part of his sphere of influence. its a pretty easy calculus on a negotation a good deal level.

by bruh21 2006-11-10 07:19PM | 0 recs
Carville's not the decider

It's the DNC members who are the "deciders." We have a vote, he doesn't.

And I can tell you that this DNC member has Howard's back.

The majority of the DNC is made up of people from state parties: The people who run the organizations that Dean augmented or revitalized with his 50-state strategy. I am sure that none of them want to go back to the days when the DNC ignored the local parties. I cannot even imagine that the people who have the votes on the DNC would not back Gov. Dean.

Partly because of that support, our governor asked the Democratic Party of Oregon to run his field campaign, something that hasn't happened in recent memory. The DNC-paid organizers were the key players in that effort. They ran a great ground operation, built up a stable of excellent, intelligent volunteers, and brought in the votes. The 50-state strategy made a difference in Oregon.

Democratic campaigns thoughout the state cooperated in ways they never had before. We were united and all working from the same plan. That helped immensely in maximizing our resources, allowing people to do double-duty for the governor and local candidates. And guess what--we took back the Oregon House as well as electing the governor, returning all our Democrats to Congress, and retaining the Oregon Senate. It was a very proud day for Democrats in Oregon, and having the staff paid for by the DNC was key to our victory.

There have always been inside-the-beltway types who don't want Dean at the DNC. They don't get him, never have, probably never will. Dean raises plenty of money, but even more important, he's all about returning power to the people. All the TV ads in the world can't replace neighbor-to-neighbor organizing and having ordinary people involved in the process.

Dean's term runs for another two years, and there really isn't anything Carville can do but try to keep people from funding him. He's not the decider.

Want to help? Buy a Democracy Bond. It's YOUR Democratic Party, support it.

Cross-posted at Kos.

by Jenny Greenleaf 2006-11-10 09:53AM | 0 recs
WHat can I do (GA)

I live in GA. I was always more interested in Northeastern politics, since I am originally from Pittsburgh.

But it's time to get directly involved. What is the path I need to seek to become a DNC member?

by Pravin 2006-11-10 01:08PM | 0 recs
Getting to the DNC

Great question!

Many party organizations are recorganizing in the upcoming months, and it's a great time to get involved and start on your own upward trajectory through the party.

There are several ways to get to the DNC. You can become the chair or vice-chair of a state party. You can be elected by members of your party. You can be a delegate from another organization. You can be appointed directly by the Chair.

I was elected to the DNC by my state party, which is probably the easiest way. I can only tell you how I did it.

You start by making a difference. You sign up as a precinct person with your local party. (That link leads to state parties, and you can work your way down from there.)

You show up, offer to help, and take responsibility for something. It might take awhile for people to notice. Just keep at it.

Then you run to be a delegate to your state party organization. Repeat the process above.

Run for DNC when the term comes up--DNC member serve 4-year terms. The number of open positions depends on Democratic performance and population. You don't have to be a state party delegate to run, but it helps. Georgia Democratic Party bylaws explain the rules.

This might mean you have to take on a long-time incumbent. It might not be comfortable. You might end up getting more support than you counted on.

It looks to me like the Georgia party could use some help with their web site. I can't think of a better way to get to know lots of people.

by Jenny Greenleaf 2006-11-10 02:47PM | 0 recs
Thanks Jenny

I will look this stuff up. I have always been indepedent. But it's time to make a difference.

by Pravin 2006-11-10 05:43PM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?
Now that we won the election, they think that we won it for "them" -- not for all of us.  They want to take the party away from the people and give it back to the "donors"-- the rich corporate crowd.  How dare they?
Someone tell me who to write letters to.  I don't think we should hesitate and let them get this off the ground.  They are still the "media stars" although they have been losing elections for years and basically represent no one. The Republicans did not support Hillary's Republican opponent this year -- because they WANT her nominated for president -- they are so sure they can beat her, and and also of course she now has some of the same "donorsdonorsdonorsdonors".
Let's start the letter-writing campaign now to counter Carville. How dare that loser?  
 It is clear that the basis of this election is the 50=state strategy, without which we would be left with nothing but New York and CA like in the last election they ran.
I began to think some time ago that that maybe that DLC gang is on the Republican payroll-- period.
by syolles 2006-11-10 10:01AM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?

Someone tell me who to write letters to.

Go to your state party's website, find out who is a member of the DNC from your state, tell them you think Howard Dean has done a great job.

Myself, I think this is a false alarm. don't think Carville can do anything, and someone is sure to tell him that booting Dean out of the DNC puts Dean right back in the Presidential arena.

by Alice Marshall 2006-11-10 10:33AM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?

someone tell me who to write letters to.

steven r's dkos diary sez be polite, but write an email to carville himself at



by skippy 2006-11-10 05:32PM | 0 recs
I call BS on Carville

I've got Charles P. Pierce to back me up:

RAHMBO REDUX. OK, this whole business about who's allowed to spike the ball in the end zone gets to last until midnight tonight and then we all hold hands and sing together. ... As recently as the summer of 2005, when I was working on a piece for The Boston Globe Magazine about Howard Dean's chairmanship of the DNC, it was a ludicrously open secret that Rahm Emanuel and the DCCC believed that a nationwide strategy of the kind Dean was proposing likely would prove not only futile, but catastrophic, and a lot of them were already measuring the space on the wall where they'd hang the Doctor's head. They believed neither in the strategy nor, especially, in the guy pushing it, and any of them who says they did is simply dealing in a barefaced non-fact. There's no shame in admitting that other people saw an opportunity before you did. Nobody denies that the late money was valuable, but Emanuel can best be said to have produced a bumper crop out of ground that somebody else plowed.

It's impossible to quantify the impact the 50-state strategy had on Tuesday's victory but I am dead certain of one thing: it couldn't have happened without Howard Dean.

by KimPossible 2006-11-10 10:03AM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?

So let me see if I can break it down into essentials...

Dean doesn't kiss DC ass, and spends less time there than other leadership.
He doesn't want to win this year, he wants to win every year.
He was remarkably prescient (or lucky) in reading the mood of the nation's broad middle.
He thinks the party is about its members, not its leaders.
And for this, he may be a marked man.  Yep, sounds like the tall-poppy syndrome that keeps underachieving organizations perpetually that way.

by jsquire 2006-11-10 10:06AM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?

I think this demonstrates, yet again,that Carville does not have the same vision of the Democratic party as most of its grassroots (or netroots, of course!). As far as I am concerned, one of the dire consequences of the Clinton years was the installation into the Democratic corridors of power of politicos like Carville, McAuliffe and Morris. Sleaze and corruption were winked at for the sake of money and power. The party and its connection to real people was severely damaged.

Yes, certainly we need to protect Dean. But, just as importantly, we need to work to marginalize the influence of DC politic-whores like James Carville. How can we do that?

At the same time, I would be cautious of painting everyone associated with the Clintons with the same brush! We don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater! For instance, Wesley Clark is a great team-player, despite his association with the Clintons. We always have to remember that people should be judged on their own words/actions and not who they are linked with.

by disgusted 2006-11-10 10:10AM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?

Sleaze and corruption were winked at for the sake of money and power.

huh? what corruption? that us pure Repubican talking point. What was so bad about 8 years of peace and prosperity.

Carville is wrong. the Clintons have been wrong about some stuff, but let's not repeat Republican talking points.

by Alice Marshall 2006-11-10 05:26PM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?

I am truly befuddled by the criticism of Dean, especially the stuff I'm seeing on the Plank at TNR. He's not a good fundraiser? Do people not know about the "internets?" Yeah, the RNC raised more money than the DNC, but they've done that in every cycle in recent memory. The difference being that Dean wasn't blown out by nearly as much as the past "moneymen" of the DNC.

We won 275 seats in state legislatures across the country. We picked up several state-houses across the nation. That means we have a fighting chance of changing the political landscape in 2010 when redistricting happens again, as it does every 10 years.

This advice to dump Dean is so insanely short-sighted that one has to doubt the party bona-fides of anyone who proposes it.

by Loreg 2006-11-10 10:10AM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?

Looks to me like it takes a 2/3 vote to oust the Chair. Hmmm. Mr. Carville should hold his breath...

Poor James Carville, the Norma Desmond of the DC beltway crowd.

'He used to be somebody! He used to be big!'

by srsjones 2006-11-10 10:18AM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?

"i'm ready for my close-up, mr. rove!"



by skippy 2006-11-10 05:35PM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?

The party is doing great with out Carville, we don't need his advice. I saw Harold Ford doing several interviews during the election season and he comes across as cold and unsmiling. You can't win an election if you have no personality.

by ckerst 2006-11-10 10:18AM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?

I'm one of those "small" doners that the dems keep bragging about.  I send Chairman Dean $25 whenever I can.  I will heed whatever boycott is called in response to an overt power-play against Chairman Dean.  I love the guy.  

by vachon 2006-11-10 10:23AM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?

If they throw Dean out, can we stage a sit-in at DNC HQ?  Or similiar type thing?

by Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle 2006-11-10 11:36AM | 0 recs
Re: A threat.

Count me down with that as not just a threat but a promise.

by wanderindiana 2006-11-10 10:24AM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?

come on, you guys.  This is reverse psychology.  They're trying to make Dean stubborn because Carville doesn't want Dean to run for president.  Dean would soak up an insanely high percentage of grassroots/netroots contributions for the '08 race.  Carville knows his other presidential candidates of choice need access to that money, so he's trying to neuter Dean in '08.

It's completely clear to Carville that '06 is a vindication of Dean's '04 message.  He's trying to box him out.

by tunesmith 2006-11-10 10:31AM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?


If Dean is out as DNC chair, then he could run for President. If he stays as chair, then he's out as a candidate. I don't follow your logic.

by sxp151 2006-11-10 11:47AM | 0 recs


DEAN IN '08.

by nonwhiteperson 2006-11-10 10:31AM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?

I gave hundreds of dollars to the DNC because I thought Dean was right, when I had never contributed to the Dems before. I signed up with MyDD just now specifically to add that I'm another voter who will never contribute to the Dems again if they maneuver Dean out... unless (under whatever circumstances) he runs for President as a Democrat.

by mr5roses 2006-11-10 10:31AM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?


Just no.

by Professor Foland 2006-11-10 10:38AM | 0 recs
I'm with you, Chris.

I think Dr. Dean has done a great job. I make a monthly contribution to a Democracy Bond which I'll most certainly cancel if Dean is ousted. He was the reason I bought a Bond in the first place, so why bother if he's gone? And I'll send all groups a fax to let them know why I won't contribute to them anymore.

FWIW, there's a movement on DKos to get as many people as possible to send the DNC $20.08 (to signify success in 2008) on Dean's birthday, Nov. 17. That might be another nice poke in the eye to people like Carville.

by pattyp 2006-11-10 10:39AM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?

Matt I presume you are asking for our thoughts and Ideas.

Dean stays - Period. It really is disgusting that Rahm's lack of maanagement skills and planning abilities to look ahead and forsee his financial needs are being dumped on Dean. Dean has vision and managment skills. Rham's lack of skills is his to own period.

How can we do it.

Carrots First. (Chris pointed out most of them).

1. We will continue to perfect GOTV and far exceed anything the RNC can do.

2. Those of us who buy Democracy bonds will do so only if Dean is allowed to continue to build his 50 state strategy and rebuild the party.

3. The netroots will continue to be the "rapid Reaction Force" in debunking rumors and doing oppo research.

4. Wes Clark has been saying something to the effect that battles are won by boots on the ground. The netroots will commit to keep volunteering, phone banking etc where required.

5. Point out that Chris' "Use or Lose it" paln saved the DNC and DCCC millions in debts by finding and extracting millions for the final push.


1. Never again will netroots donate to DCCC or DSCC if the people in charge are not recognizing that its a "team" effort. Those that disparage us lose.

2. No longer will Net roots/Grass roots activists contribute to DNC. We will instead give to individual candidates through our own mechanisms.

3. Ford and his family are involved with dirty financial dealings. The Netroots will start LTE campaign to get this word to DNC delegates, Party Chairs, and citizenary at large.

Overall Campaign.

1.  You, Jerome, Markos, Jane Hamsher, Booman, John Avrosis, and all our other Blog leaders need to have a summit to find a way that we can coordinate and work more closely in tandum. Jane has a "netroots" page coming up and perhaps that should be the day by day ACTION page, with updates being provided to the Blog leaders for publication.

2. We need to take down Carville. He screwed Kerry and all of us, with his WH call to his wife Mary Matlin about Ohio late the night of 2004 elections. (Pages 344-347 of Bob Woodward's new book "State of Denial"). Carville's own website describes him as a "celebrity" as opposed to a political guru. His wife has a Republican Fund raiser for Liddy and others at his home-thus he was most likely there. Carville is a spy within our ranks we don't want nor need him. His movie that came out in September was a bust.

3. As far as I am concerned Carville can be a "celebrity" on his own time and his own dime. No need to pay him 15% with OUR money. Make it imminently clear to Reid Pelosi et al, that we will not work with Carville in anyway whatsoever.

If they protest about how nice he is - the answer is fine-they can have him over to dinner every night if they like. What they cannot do is mix business with firendship. We expect a more professional leadership than that.

4. We have week or two declared as "Carville" time and have blogs publish all negative news we can find for the duration of that time. Make him completely irrelevant.

by Grandma M 2006-11-10 10:47AM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?
(via TNR)
Howard Dean spokeswoman Karen Finney emails the following in response to James Carville's comments below:
After the Republicans have admitted to a thumping, why is it that the only one complaining on the Democratic side is James Carville, who today in addition to trashing Howard Dean, praised the RNC, the outfit that brought us the racist ad that defeated Harold Ford, James' supposed candidate for Chair?
Perhaps he's not aware that under Dean in this midterm election the DNC has raised record cash --- all hard dollars -- including three times as much from major donors, eight times as much online and made a $30 million investment in the '06 cycle, three times as much as the DNC put into the last midterm. Not to mention we made an $8m overhaul of our voter file which was successfully used in 47 states and through the 50 state strategy invested in states like Pennsylvania, Kansas, Indiana and Montana where we had critical victories on Tuesday.
by Copley 2006-11-10 10:48AM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?

I agree. If the DSCC and DCCC want to continue to push bullshit they will find themselves on the outside of the progressive movement.

Many, many people in this country feel there is no difference between the parties and if DSCC and DCCC are intent on proving that very publicly over the next two years so be it.

Dean stays and more than that he stays big.

Carville is done.

by smacfarl 2006-11-10 11:09AM | 0 recs
Some interesting numbers

Here's what the tally looks like to me:

- House pickups in 17 states

- Senate pickups in another 3 states, not counting those states with House wins (MT, RI, VA)

- governor pickups in 2 more states (AR & MA)

- state legislature pickups in yet another 3 states (MI, MN, OR)

That's 25 states right there... How this proves that a 50-state strategy was a "catastrophic success," so to speak, and that it's time to dump Howard Dean, is beyond me.

by Patience 2006-11-10 11:14AM | 0 recs
Re: Some interesting numbers

I forgot picking up the governor's office in Maryland... so that would make 26 states where we posted significant victories. I guess Dean is a failure because he didn't get all 50 in his first cycle.

by Patience 2006-11-10 11:28AM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?

Suggest to everyone to slow down and give all of this some thought.  Both Dean, Rahm, and Schumer deserve a hell of a lot of credit for getting us where we are.  As do Reid, Durbin, Pelosi, Hoyer, Murtha & Clyburn.  This election result was not 100% doing of the netroots or of the establishment, although both played vital roles.

The Democratic Party is what it is because we are the party that represents, and welcomes, any and all. We are the Big Tent.  This means we've got folks on all ends of the spectrum and everywhere in between - it is the Party's greatest strenght and greatest weakness.

Dean did a great job of forcing the national party organization to refocus its efforts outside of the urban centers and to include the suburban, ex-urban and rural votes - which, only a few decades ago made up the heart of our party.  As national chairman it was his job to set a national plan for the party in place - he did great - we were competitive in places none of us would have ever dreamed 12 months ago.

Rahm also did an outstanding job - his ability to raise funds from non-typical sources was only second in importance to his ability to put a real candidate in nearly every race. Both were vital. Did he want more money from the national party? Of course, who in his shoes wouldn't?  Part of his job was to complain, behind doors and in public, that he wasn't getting enough...anything less and he would have been failing in his role.

Schumer also did a fantasitic job - like Rahm, opening up doors to sources of funds that had always been closed. We also won six Senate seats, in large part because we had stellar candidates in each of the 7 contested races. Sure, some of you may not like Casey's position on choice, or Tester's position on guns - but we're all kidding ourselves if we don't think they are 1000 times better than the ones they beat...and on most of the major issues, we're all on the same page.

My point here is that the job Dean had to do was different than the job Rahm or Schumer had to do - and just because each one is part of the larger party organization, doesn't mean that they don't have different agendas.  Not divergent agendas, but different.  One had to build a national party. One had to elect Democrats to the House. One had to elect Democrats to the Senate.  

Further, none of this should ignore the fact that it took strong leadership and hard decisions from Reid, Durbin, Pelosi, Hoyer, Clyburn and Murtha to set the stage. Was it a strategic decision for Murtha to be the spokesman on Iraq and not the woman that until recently the rest of the country knew only as a "San Fransico Liberal"?  Of course it was.   Did hard choices have to be made to not pick every fight? Judges. Bankrupcy. Patriot Act. Iraq. Rumsfeld. The list goes on and on. We won some fights and we lost some fights. Hell, we were in the minority, which in Washington translates to "Who?"

Don't forget who we are up against - the Republican survival method has been to chew up and spit out every Democrat they could for the past 20 years. They build a structure to do it that blows the mind - Fox News, Limbaugh and his talk-radio peers, newspapers, think-tanks, local officals, and on and on - it didn't matter how right we were, how passionate we were, how involved we were.  

We had to think forward, plot and plan and make some hard calls. Whatever you think of Clinton and the DLC folks - and I certainly have my opinions there - one thing he was able to do was kick them down every time they stood up.  They learned, and have been doing it to us ever since.

The leadership of our party...personified in Dean, Reid, Pelosi, Hoyer, Murtha, Clyburn, Emmanuel, Schumer, Durbin, Biden, Clinton and many many others are only the faces that we see. Each has a specific role to play, and a specific role to play in public.  We had to figure out how do we keep the netroots and activist side of the party happy and also maintain the strong ties with corporate America? How do we raise the money we need to compete? I'm heavily involved in fundraising, and I can tell you - the netroots and party activists raise a lot of funds, but that's zeroed out when the US Chamber plops its $20M PAC on the Republicans table.  Don't forget that when you threaten to never give another dime. So you don't like Carvel? Who cares?  Certainly he doesn't.  So what if you think Clinton walks the line too much - in perspective, the turn around she's undergown has been down right amazing.

The fact that our party is the big tent means we have to work that much harder to keep the tent standing.  We have, as Democrats, an oppertunity to turn our country around. Rebuild this nation into what it was, and what it can be again.

We've got a long way to go to get things back on track, and we've got a huge, well funded really pissed off animal on the other side just waiting for us to show the slightest weakness.

I think it was Josh Greene wrote this great piece some months ago in the The Washington Monthly about Senator Lindsay Graham from SC (Yes, he's a Republican). The point was that even though he seems like a good guy (and, frankly I know him, and he is a good guy...for a Republican) and that he's sided with us on many occasions - don't let that trick you or mislead you, because when it really counts, not only is he a Republican, but he's the Republican that Democrats like and thus is the perfect guy to cut the deal that cuts our throats.

We're allowed to disagree - and even yell that from the top of our lungs.  But when its go time, its either us or them. On Tuesday it became us again. We could keep it that way for a very very long time.  But we have got to keep shit together, debate loud and tirelessly, but when it comes time to put our cards on the table, put them on the table with one hand.

Two days after we, collectivly as a Party from our leaders on down and from the roots on up, handed Bush and his party a stinging kick in the ass - I'm greatly saddened to see folks already threatening to break, stop giving, and trashing those who lead us here. This, my friends, is why we lose.

by PalmettoDemocrat 2006-11-10 11:15AM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?

Great comment PalmettoDemocrat.

I particularly enjoyed your Lindsay Graham comments.  The Dems need to keep a file on that sneaky bastard.  

During the Clinton impeachment he did interviews about how moderate he was, and then at just the right time, he freaked out over charges that Clinton had a pattern of abusing women.

He was one of the "moderates" that orchestrated the move that saved the fillibuster by allowing some real scum bag judges to obtain approval.  I'm still trying to figure out what the Dems got out of that debacle.  If the Repugs want to show their asses to the country, let them do so and just maybe the public will vote the bastards out.  Oh, I forgot,  The bastards were voted out of power!  When you cave and get nothing in return, you're an idiot, or a Democratic strategist.

Then Graham as a JAG, pushed for limitations on the Bush Admins ability to run amok in Guantanamo.  Almost immediately thereafter, he intorduces legislation to authorize even harsher treatment.

This guy is 2-faced and I'll bet he's after the White House.  If he gets it, he'll be like the Dead Zone presidential candidate.

Watch him and don't buy his bull shit and make sure everyone you know is informed.

by CorpsAreNotPeople 2006-11-10 01:24PM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?

Great comment. I couldn't have told anyone who the past six DNC Chairs were; it didn't seem to matter.  This thread suggests conflicting assumptions about the role and purpose of the DNC.  Right now, if rebuilding and restructuring are the key roles, then IMHO Howard Dean is the man for that task.

Your point about the number of key roles, and (by implication) the spectrum of temperaments and skills required to move forward such a large organization forward are well taken.

by readerOfTeaLeaves 2006-11-10 01:46PM | 0 recs

Dean just pulled off the House, Senate and majority governorships! I haven't read all the comments but could this be tokenism? Did Carville want a nonwhite? If so, he should pick the most qualified ones. Barack Obama, etc.

by nonwhiteperson 2006-11-10 11:23AM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?

Mr. Matalin doesn't like Howard Dean? What a surprise! If anyone happens to run into Dick Cheney, they should ask him what the hell's going on with the Matalin family.

by John Emerson 2006-11-10 11:23AM | 0 recs
I hate

tokenism that backfires. Ford isn't the best nonwhite out there.

by nonwhiteperson 2006-11-10 11:24AM | 0 recs
Dean ousted ==>Dean 2008?

I assume Dean's commitment not to run for POTUS is contingent on not being ousted as party chair or having to waste his time defending against such a move.

If some dissident faction of Dems make noises about ousting Dean, the simplest thing to do is to rev-up the Dean for America campaign again.

by Carl Nyberg 2006-11-10 11:27AM | 0 recs
How about 2?

Maybe Ford can be co-chairman of the DNC. Ford can work the donors and the communication, while Dean can work strategy and organization.

by bsavage 2006-11-10 11:28AM | 0 recs
Re: How about 2?

I wouldn't donate to Ford.  Maybe they are hoping with Ford they wouldn't need me.  And, they could have all that nice new corporate DNC money to spend as they see fit instead of using it to do crazy $#!+ like building the Party.

by Demetrius 2006-11-10 11:41AM | 0 recs
Re: How about 2?

no thanks. no compromise. its a sign of weakness to compromise with peo who dont want to share power, but instead treat small donors like me as ATM.

by bruh21 2006-11-10 11:41AM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?

None of the DLC proponents like Dean.  They don't like him because he wants to let people (gasp) have a say in their own government.

I've never donated to the DSCC or the DCCC because I don't like the way they operate.

I make a monthly donation to the DNC just because of Howard Dean and his 50 State Strategy.

No Dean = No Dollars

by SusanD 2006-11-10 11:34AM | 0 recs

anyone who voted for the war (and anyone who obviously supports someone who voted for the war in '08) wants to see dean discredited. that's all.

except john edwards.

by benjoya 2006-11-10 11:37AM | 0 recs
while we're at it

did terry mac ever give us anything but disaster?

by benjoya 2006-11-10 11:38AM | 0 recs
Re: while we're at it

"did terry mac ever give us anything but disaster?"

That depends... Is failure the same as disaster?

by Demetrius 2006-11-10 11:42AM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?

Didn't Dean coin the term "Culture of Corruption" which was repeated widely on MSM.

Didn't the exit polls say that corruption was one of the number 1 issues?

They were going to blame him if we lost and are now trying to oust him when we won.

by ugottabkidding 2006-11-10 11:45AM | 0 recs
Dean's birthday gift - not ousting

Happy Birthday, Gov. Dean

Send $20.06 to the DNC on 11/17 to: e?source=NETA454
or We've Got Howard's Back at ActBlue

Diary by Cherisse at Daily Kos 131337/696
Wed Nov 08, 2006 at 10:13:37 AM PST

Many people have been wondering how to thank Gov. Dean.  His birthday is 11/17.  Please consider mobilizing and getting people to send a contribution in the amount of $20.06 to the DNC on that day.

If we start now, letting everyone on our lists/blogs know about this, it could result in, not only a symbolic gesture of appreciation, but a significant amount of fundraising for the DNC.

What better birthday gift could there be for Gov. Dean?

by mrobinsong 2006-11-10 11:45AM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?

Another thing,

Why do the Carvillites and DLC types like to use political victims all of the time?

Its like they're trying to run us as the pity party made up completely of victims.

Victims usually have a clean slate morally, but at the same time, we seem like we're the one's always taking it in the end.

by ugottabkidding 2006-11-10 11:48AM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?

Rahm and Clinton are going to rip the party apart.  Dean is the Progressive hero, period.  The others are a pile of bullshit.  I am so pissed at the spineless bastards who caved on the war and caved on our constitutional guarantees, and then want to "lead" the party when they have no concept of what leadership means.  I will quit the Democrats and find something else...I swear.  Green, Progressive.  It has to be better than their garbage.  

by candideinnc 2006-11-10 12:07PM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?

This is wearing me out.  I'm a moderate and was a big critic of Dean's as a candidate.  But let's look at the facts.  The party had neglected it's infrastructure under MacAuliffe in favor of big donors.  An especially egregious decision after BCRA took effect.

Dean has actually made structural improvements to the voter file, increasing the number of small donors and investing in state parties.  Does anyone think if they spent another $100,000 on folks like Lois Murphy or Victoria Wulsin that they would have won those races?  You don't win every close race, grow up.  Only a real jerk would complain about the Chairman three days after taking back both chambers of Congress.

by BG 2006-11-10 12:20PM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?

1) Dean won't run for prez. Period.

2) Carville can't get laid unless he helps the Republicans. He sold out long ago.

3) All I've heard for years is the great promise of Ford. And he followed the DLC prescription to the 'T'.  How's that working out?

Big tent philosophies aside, the fact is that in much of the country, Ford's positions makes him a Republican.

Several commenters are right. This is part of the Clinton presidential campaign. Carville has always been their frontal assault force. They are testing the apparatus to see how much power they retain over it. And the fat-assed corporate masturbators of the Beltway/K street bunch can think of nothing that'd fill their bank accounts faster than another DLC-fest.

I half expect Dean to step down just because few take the stressful job for long periods, but if he doesn't, we'll see how the Clintons like the response, to their little test.

I look forward to the fight. Just because Bill is popular and Hillary's loved in New York doesn't grant them carte blanche. I put the country first. Dean does, too. Carville, like Rove, is an overhyped bore pushing yesterday's agenda.

by KevinHayden 2006-11-10 12:32PM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?

I was proud to buy a "Democracy Bond" when Dean took over the DNC.... I posted a link to donate in his name after he took office and faced heck from jerkwads like Carville.

I pledge to cease all contributions to the DNC if Howard Dean is forced out.

by daninvirginia 2006-11-10 01:13PM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?

I just opened an account here to say that if there is any attempt to oust Howard Dean, I will never give another damn dime to the party. I didn't become politically active until 2004 and it sure wasn't because of the DLC or James Carville. I bought a democracy bond, worked my tail off, and gave more than I could afford to progressive candidates across the board. All of it was a direct result of being inspired by Howard Dean.

by suki 2006-11-10 01:32PM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?

Count me among those that won't donate to the DNC if Dean is ousted. Not because I will no longer believe in their cause, and not because I actually think they give a shit. The reason I never donated before is that I am perfectly capable of evaluating and picking my own candidates. I don't need Howard or Rahm or anyone else to take my money and split it up to their chosen few according to their strategy.

I gave to the DNC this year to support Dean and the 50 state strategy. Remember that once Dean articulated the 50 state strategy in the race for DNC chair, every other serious candidate echoed him.

Speaking of DNC chair candidates, if I didn't know any better I'd say PalmettoDemocrat sounds a lot like Donnie Fowler. We should listen to him and stick together. But that's advice Mister Carville ought to heed as well.

Carl Nyberg's comment was a good one too. Dean made a promise not to run in 2008 and the DNC members promised to support him for chair. The last thing Carville & co. want right now is Dean For America part II.

by davefordemocracy 2006-11-10 01:37PM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?

 I've always maintained that the beltway crowd sandbagged Dean in 2004 not because they were afraid he was "unelectable", but because they were afraid he'd WIN. And Carville's asinine remarks, coming three days after the Democrats' best night in 14 years, certainly seem to buttress that notion. Because not only did the Democrats win, they won with non-DLC, independent-minded, grassroots-fueled candidates like Jim Webb, Jon Tester, Jerry McNertney, Joe Sestak, and numerous others. Webb and Tester, moreover, beat back DLC stiffs in their primaries. And the likes of James Carville and his beltway buddies can't stand that. Dean's been TOO successful for comfort.

 In the spring of 2004 I remember an exchange with a fairly high-ranking party official. He basically said that the Dems weren't going to beat Bush that year, and that there really wasn't any national plan to try too hard. I then asked him, "Well, if we're not trying to win, why then NOT run Howard Dean and see how he does?" He didn't have a good answer -- and quickly changed the subject.

 I think there was a movement afoot to blame Dean  for the Dems falling short in the election, as an excuse to dump him. (Funny how that was never seriously discussed about Terry MacAuliffe in the wake of the 2002 wipeout.) And they probably had the talking points all ready to go. But a funny thing happened -- the Democrats kicked ass and swept the pugs off the map. That seriously damaged the anti-Dean narrative they were preparing, so Carville is now angry and bitter that there's no good reason to get rid of Dean.

Carville's a comfortable loser. It must have been brutal for him to go on TV and pretend to enjoy the Democratic rout last Tuesday.

 As for Harold Ford, well, he has his virtues, but he'd make a HORRIBLE DNC Chair. He's just too divisive -- do you really want the face of the national Democratic Party to spend every Sunday sniping at Nancy Pelosi for being too liberal? Do you want regular, generous helpings of gay-bashing coming out of the Democratic Party chairman? Do you want the Dem Party chairman praising Bush? Say what you will about Dean; he has NEVER publicly criticized another Democrat since he assumed his current office. I seriously doubt Ford would extend the same courtesy to the party figures he disagrees with.


by Master Jack 2006-11-10 02:24PM | 0 recs
Dems were helped by yet another voice

Michael J. Fox made a stupendous effort to publicize the pro-stem cell research vote on the Missouri ballot and elsewhere. With Limbaugh's kneejerk reaction, Fox got even more coverage!

And a me too - aside from candidate donations, I gave to the DNC and not the DCCC to support Gov Dean's ideas for growth.

by Books Alive 2006-11-10 02:47PM | 0 recs
with you chris

as long as the new party is not named "Netroot Activists for Democrats"...

by sometv 2006-11-10 04:03PM | 0 recs
You Don't Understand What Carville Is Doing.....?

I will tell you what Carville is doing "with comments like this." He's doing what he's done ever since he and Mary were married...he's doing his best to destroy what works for the Democratic party.

Howard Dean is, and has been, the biggest fear of the Republican party. That's why, when Dean was running for President, Karl Rove made a comment to the effect of "give us Dean...he's the one we want to run against."  Rove knew that would undermine the Democratic confidence in Dean so, as he always has, he simply lied and said they wanted Dean to be the Democratic nominee. We see what happened. If Dean had been the nominee, he would be president today.

James Carville is simply following the command of his republic[an] masters and trying to destroy Dean's credibility within the party.

Do Not Be Fooled By Carville. He is a likable, but dangerous man.  And he is no Democrat!

by Elmo Buzz 2006-11-10 04:16PM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?

Support Dean

Get Democracy Bond

by jasmine 2006-11-10 05:11PM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?
Ever since Carville married Cruella Deville, he's shifted further and further to the right. He even tried to be a major player on K St. with her and failed.
He is a DINO.  
by huffcull 2006-11-10 06:42PM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?

by jcjcjc 2006-11-10 06:46PM | 0 recs
Dag nabbit

Dean is doing the right thing.  The truth is, to borrow Pelosi's phrase, he's draining the swamp.

There was a bunch of scum like Carville who put the hit out on Dean, and gave us an abominable candidae in John Kerry, a man who would be a better speaker with duct tape over his goddamned mouth.

These people are plain clueless.

Worse, they reinforce their cluelessness by living in a fantasy world where Dean just didn't get the job done.


by jcjcjc 2006-11-10 06:49PM | 0 recs
James Servile

Carville is just another self-serving consultant.  If the Demos are doing something right, he isn't needed to fix it.  Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain....

by merican 2006-11-10 06:49PM | 0 recs
Carville Must Go!

Why is Carville still a Democratic face on TV?  Jim Hightower is funny and a Democrat.  

E.J. Dionne lives in DC and has a brain, how about him.  And he looks better than Carville, too.

by furiouschads 2006-11-10 07:13PM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?

Good Grief!

If replacing Howard Dean at the DNC were at all possible, all bets would then be off and Howard could then run for President.

I Phuqu'n dare them.


Just for a bit of nostalgia. Today you all call it the 50 State Strategy. Back in 2003 we called it "The Vermontster Mash!"

by Subway Serenade 2006-11-10 08:14PM | 0 recs
Write the DNC to tell them Carvel should be quiet

Show support for Dean by posting a comment on

I wrote to them:

James Carville should be quiet and stop criticizing Howard Dean as the head of the DNC.  Dean's 50 state strategy is absolutely necessary.  It has paid some benefits already in the last election by providing an environment where Democratic candidates would be encouraged to run in district held for years by Republicans. Even if they didn't win, they set the stage for next election and made the Republicans spend money that can't be used in other races. Without an infrastructure, it is next to impossible to win in now deep red states.  In the medium to long run, it can help make the Democrats again the dominant party.  

The Democrats won at least 28 seats.  To say that taking away money from state organizations to fund certain campaigns is the reason that Democrats didn't win even more seats is highly speculative and does not seem correct to me.  The environment was right for the Democrats and the money wasn't the most important factor, especially in House races.  As proof, all the money the Republican spent and they didn't take a house or senate seat from the Democrats.

It is insult to Democrats everywhere when someone says that the RNC did a much better job than the DNC, when there purposes were not exactly the same.  Also Mr. Carvel should have better things to do than criticize a fellow Democrat, especially one who has been a major force in putting a pulse back into the party.

by edonyoung 2006-11-10 08:52PM | 0 recs
I Resent Carville Doing This to Ford

He's setting Harold Ford, Jr. up here. I'm happy with Dean as DNC Chair, but I also supported Ford in Tennessee. I resent the hell out of Carville setting Ford up to be the fall guy with Democrats. This is outrageous. Ford really should come right out and reject what Carville's doing.

by Tennessean 2006-11-11 02:05AM | 0 recs
Let Carville/Ford have the DNC...

...I want to see the sequel to Dean for America in 2008.

Howard Dean has proven all that he needs to prove in two short years as Chair of the DNC.  He has proven that he knows how to rebuild the Democratic Party from the grassroots up.  If Carville/Ford think that they can do better, let them try.  I would prefer to see Dean as a Presidential candidate once again than continue to serve as an unappreciated DNC Chair.

With the field of Democratic Presidential candidates in 2008 filling up with DLCers and a lone progressive, Russ Feingold, I think that a Carville/Ford takeover of the DNC would be the perfect way for Dean to be able to run for President without going back on his pledge to serve a full four-year term as party chair.

by taxandspendliberal 2006-11-11 05:06AM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?

Metal Cutting


by siteshow 2007-10-07 07:50PM | 0 recs
by siteshow 2007-10-07 07:51PM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?
information phentermine site suggest taking sites in
delivery fla phentermine sat those of modest
phentermine cod accepted feel panacea must
by xyilo9 2007-10-16 12:00PM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?
no prescription It pains the
by xyilo9 2007-10-18 06:30AM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?
viagra alternative herbal supplement of PDE5
viagra online order guide of Viagra
free generic shipping viagra doubling 12 the
viagra soft tab ensure cavernosum available
by xyilo9 2007-10-18 08:28AM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?
relatos porno to at Dallas
young teen sex videos trial death convicted
gay porno testing helped
cartoon porno expected with it to Wadd
porn trailer Jade Gauge an
by xyilo9 2007-10-22 04:50AM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?
buy anabolic steroids
online pharmacy phentermine
meridia for weight loss
phentermine with mastercard
dianabol cycle
concerta rivotril
buy glucophage drug online
pill meridia
soma percocet
flonase prescription  
nasacort aq triamcinolone
buy steroids drugs
buy steroid pills online
dianabol fakes
phentermine and prozac
ttokkyo dianabol
flonase generic online  
clomid for men  
rivotril la
buying phentermine
buy meridia online
buy cheap nasacort online
buy cheap rivotril
meridia diet pill
glucophage price
cheap flonase  
dianabol 10mg
buy flonase online  
what is nasacort
free shipping
percocet morphine
buy oral steroids
flonase breastfeeding  
dianabol info
ordering phentermine
phentermine abuse
meridia coupons
flonase prescription  
phentermine for weight loss
rivotril information
cod phentermine
buy cheap phentermine online
meridia withdrawal
flonase cold  
flonase dosage  
meridia no prescription
dianabol prices
buy glucophage drug
purchase effexor  
cheapest phentermine
clomid without prescription  
buy oral steroids
dianabol anadrol
effexor withdrawal symptoms  
drug steroids
meridia success
meridia review
phentermine free
buy effexor 150 mg online  
prescription drugs
phentermine sales
good weight loss
phentermine with hoodia
soma percocet
sale allegra online  
phentermine diet pill
phentermine fda
flonase com  
drug meridia
discount allegra  
Buy Clarinex allergy medicine  
flonase warnings  
nasacort price
percocet dose
online consultation for percocet
phentermine yellow
what is glucophage
flonase nasal spray  
flonase information  
percocet and vicodin
allegra prices online  
dianabol ingredients
rivotril patch
glucophage prices
nasacort nasal spray
percocet overdose
percocet 10 mg
purchase nasacort
dianabol reviews
taking dianabol
buy clomid  
dianabol directions
dianabol effects
information on phentermine
buy Clarinex online without prescription  
clomid success stories  
order effexor online  
allegra medicine  
order Clarinex online  
meridia drug
buy cheap dianabol online
buy cheap glucophage online
compare phentermine
rivotril children
phentermine 90
buy allegra tablets  
rivotril effects
phentermine cod
order meridia online
clomid drug  
rivotril side effects
dianabol pills
order effexor online  
dianabol cycle
percocet online no prescription
clomid without prescription  
phentermine pharmacy
phentermine 37.5 mg 90
meds phentermine
flonase breastfeeding  
prescription diet
dianabol picture
Clarinex online without a prescription  
buying percocet
allegra prescription  
buy legal steroids
meridia 15mg
percocet addiction
buy effexor antidepressants online  
percocet 5
buy flonase online  
buy methylphenidate
phentermine 180
percocet dosages
rivotril for depression
compare phentermine
order phentermine
meridia hospital
effexor prices  
buying clomid online  
phentermine 30
cheap dianabol
flonase manufacturer  
clomid effects  
clomid online  
buying steroids
nasacort nasal online
cheap dianabol
side effects of clomid  
what is dianabol
effects of dianabol
affects of rivotril
generic effexor online  
dianabol review
nasacort dosage
percocet pill
rivotril without prescription
pcos clomid  
phentermine fenfluramine
buy medications effexor  
percocet cod
buy generic percocet
flonase dosage  
buy Clarinex pharmacy  
rivotril children
prozac rivotril
meridia over the counter
dianabol steriods
buy Clarinex online with no prescription  
buy effexor 75mg online  
phentermine fda
when to take clomid  
effexor extended release  
glucophage online
purchase phentermine online
canada allegra  
dianabol directions
clomid success  
meridia euclid
meridia hospital
percocet drugs
www phentermine
dianabol picture
glucophage xr
pill meridia
buy phentermine no prescription
phentermine hoodia
buy phentermine without prescription
buy Clarinex pharmacy  
phentermine success stories
www meridia
buy horse steroids
low cost phentermine
rivotril prescriptions
phentermine discount
sustanon dianabol stack
buy allegra 60mg online  
dianabol doses
does clomid work  
phentermine 37.5
fda approved
phentermine online consultation
coming off effexor  
new antidepressant effexor  
buy effexor prescription  
buy real steroids
dianabol user reviews
buy glucophage 500mg online
dianabol only cycle
buy clomid drug  
flonase no prescription  
weight loss
darvocet vs percocet
buy glucophage 1000 mg
dianabol user reviews
buy domestic steroids online
rivotril children
buy steroids in usa
dianabol 50
drug meridia
percocet abuse
www dianabol
buy domestic steroids
effexor antidepressants  
buy flonase drug online  
allegra generic  
Buy Cheap Clarinex  
rivotril dosages
effexor xr 150mg  
buy flonase online  
buy glucophage 1000 mg
order Clarinex online  
phentermine fedex
clomid ovulation  
phentermine 30
buy effexor 150mg  
dianabol information
buy Clarinex  prescription online  
rivotril without prescription
buy real steroids
no prescription phentermine
rivotril site
sale allegra online  
rivotril la
buy effexor 75mg  
meridia work
side effects of rivotril
anavar and dianabol
allegra tablets  
does meridia work
buy weight loss glucophage
purchase phentermine
clomid message boards  
dianabol online
buy generic effexor online  
soma percocet
buy effexor prescription  
phentermine overdose
percocet online no rx
snorting percocet
flonase nosebleed  
effexor xr dosage  
by xyilo9 2007-12-04 07:55AM | 0 recs
Re: How Could Dean Be Ousted?

I can explain what is their problem: they have now quercetin allergy and can't stand that the opposition is better situated than them, but they will quickly get over it.

by tiberiu 2008-03-17 11:33AM | 0 recs


Advertise Blogads